Dealing with the Billmen and Caravels

[Prince Cobra]

Hello again. I decided to go for the Late Byzantine campaign on Normal (GA). I never really aimed at winning the game but at surviving and testing the ground for future campaigns (and limitng my game duration). It was one of the most interesting campaigns I've played (alliance combinations, relatively historical positioning of the factions). Anyway, I again stretched to Syria and Palestine, and to Bulgaria, Corsica and Sardinia. Once again I bypassed the Egyptians and attacked the Spanish. I thought I will have problems with the Spaniards but no, two units of mercenary billmen, valoured urban militia and Byz infantry, valoured Pronoiai Allagion, expert generals do wonders. I did not fought the Russians and the Hungarians but none of them dared to attack me. I was the richest and with the most numerous army... but...

The English interfered in my Iberian campaign (which is even more annoying, they did it in the same way I did by ships; worse by caravels; these high valoured monsters sunk many of my ships (even some gungalleys!); it is good I did not entirely relied on trade). My men fought bravely, literally to the last man standing (rare sight for the Byzantines, my 8 star general also perished). I invaded again only to lose a lot of men (and receiving doubtful courage of one of my princes) and to be surprised again in the next turn and pushed back. Finally, in 1453 I bribed two stacks of English armies and managed to force the enemy withdraw into the Citadel with the remaining troops. The operation costed me 70 000 but I had 5 000 florins surplus per year. Potentially, this would have allowed me to rely on billmen in the future... but I ran out of time.

Back on the question. Apart from bribes, are there any good way to remove the billmen? Naptha throwers can somehow be useful but I am not entirely sure. In addition, it seems I relied too much on cavalry... I am really shocked by the power of billmen. You know, Turks (destroyed early), Egyptians, Spanish (the great power), I smashed them all. I've somehow got used to the Catholic armies but those billmen... And those caravels in the Western Med... Hmm, I see a big future to the Naptha regiments in my army. Any other hints as the Byz?

:wall:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/upload/SA_1453.jpg

Btw, how come I got fewer points than Hungary and Russians?

[gollum]

Billmen are indeed among the best foot units of the game due to their availability cheap price relatively high armor piercing attack and bonuses versus cavalry all with a solid morale, decent armor, decent defence and decent stamina.

The Byz. should have no trouble in getting them as long as they have Varangians that are in a different league altogether - however in late you have to do without them. Your best heavy melee units are indeed cavalry (byz cav/ pronoiai - kataphraktoi are too vulnerable to the many good ap units of late due to their speed), and unfortunately Bills can handle them because of the +3/+1 bonus against horsies and the ap attack.

Your foot melee units (urban militia and byz infantry) cannot match the bills unfortunately, so all you are left with is tactical tricks: shoot them with bows and crossbows; tire them by using your inferior melee units to grind them and then cavalry charge them to brake them; pin them using upgraded spears in hold position/formation and charge them in the rear/flank. Use strong chargers - pronoiai if possible.

Also muster whatever decent foot mercenaries you can get your hands on - they are imperative for Byzs in late; have Inns in your border provinces (that mercenaries are attracted to) and kep an eye on billmen, chivalric men at arms and other such overpowered infantry units as well as for almohad urban militias and even militia seargents.

If you want to peranently solve the problem of Byz foot units in late, conquer Switzerland and pump out Swiiss halbs that are a really good poison against all other poisons.

:bow:

[Prince Cobra]

Billmen are indeed among the best foot units of the game due to their availability cheap price relatively high armor piercing attack and bonuses versus cavalry all with a solid morale, decent armor, decent defence and decent stamina.

The Byz. should have no trouble in getting them as long as they have Varangians that are in a different league altogether - however in late you have to do without them. Your best heavy melee units are indeed cavalry (byz cav/ pronoiai - kataphraktoi are too vulnerable to the many good ap units of late due to their speed), and unfortunately Bills can handle them because of the +3/+1 bonus against horsies and the ap attack.

Your foot melee units (urban militia and byz infantry) cannot match the bills unfortunately, so all you are left with is tactical tricks: shoot them with bows and crossbows; tire them by using your inferior melee units to grind them and then cavalry charge them to brake them; pin them using upgraded spears in hold position/formation and charge them in the rear/flank. Use strong chargers - pronoiai if possible.

Also muster whatever decent foot mercenaries you can get your hands on - they are imperative for Byzs in late; have Inns in your border provinces (that mercenaries are attracted to) and kep an eye on billmen, chivalric men at arms and other such overpowered infantry units as well as for almohad urban militias and even militia seargents.

If you want to peranently solve the problem of Byz foot units in late, conquer Switzerland and pump out Swiiss halbs that are a really good poison against all other poisons.

:bow:

In fact, the game makes a good demonstration of the superiority of the English military, which historically resulted in the success of a small 4 million England against 20 million France.

Yes, there is always a free space for the billmen in my army. I occasionally hire Longbowmen. I have not tried the Chivalric men-at-arms but I doubt they will be successful against the billmen. I do not envy the French in high and late. Basically, I am really content with the Pronoiai Allagion (Byz cavalry are also nice, though I use them in small quantities). With an excellent general, master horse breeder in Nicaea, one can even see a Pronoiai cavalry wiping 20 Royal knights with the Spanish heir inside with relatively minor casualties (of course, I was fighting downhill). I need to test the Naptha explosives. I am sure many of my men will hate me for that!

Btw, I am quite sceptic of the armour upgrades (one silver armour province is more than enough, the other can go even without armour). I have the feeling they are only useful against the Mongols (protect from arrows) but are useless and even harmful because of the huge amount of armour piercing units and the fatigue. I am not even sure whether they affect the defense in a hand-to hand combat.

On a different issue, the problem of the Late campaign is that when you finally manage to secure yourself financially (bribes!), the game is going to be over.

Slightly off-topic but since we are discussing the Byzantines. I always dreamed of making an army of deadly assassins but the border forts absolutely limit my options on this occasion. How many stars are required in order an assassin to be able to evade the curse of the border forts?

:bow:

[Ironside]

Yes, there is always a free space for the billmen in my army. I occasionally hire Longbowmen. I have not tried the Chivalric men-at-arms but I doubt they will be successful against the billmen.

Stat wise CMMA should win due to the shield. Reduced if both got heavy armour upgrades of course. Billmen win if both got golden armour.


Btw, I am quite sceptic of the armour upgrades (one silver armour province is more than enough, the other can go even without armour). I have the feeling they are only useful against the Mongols (protect from arrows) but are useless and even harmful because of the huge amount of armour piercing units and the fatigue. I am not even sure whether they affect the defense in a hand-to hand combat.

1 armour from armour smith=1 defense or 0.5 defense vs ap units. Only for the desert corps is armour a downside (in long battles). That and winter, but you don't fight enough winter battles to bother.


On a different issue, the problem of the Late campaign is that when you finally manage to secure yourself financially (bribes!), the game is going to be over.

It's the blitz age sadly enough.


Slightly off-topic but since we are discussing the Byzantines. I always dreamed of making an army of deadly assassins but the border forts absolutely limit my options on this occasion. How many stars are required in order an assassin to be able to evade the curse of the border forts?

:bow:

Never really tried it but iirc they need 5 stars to be really good at it (Syria produced). 2-3 stars should be enough to prevent death in droves I think.

[gollum]

Originally posted by Stephen Asen
In fact, the game makes a good demonstration of the superiority of the English military, which historically resulted in the success of a small 4 million England against 20 million France.

I do not envy the French in high and late.


Not surprising considering the nationality of the developer, however for the record, by the end of the 100 years' war the French military was light years ahead of the English one.

In terms of game representation i find the longbowmen nicely represented, however the Billmen are overpowered.

Hstorically the strengths of the English were:
organisation, discipline, leadership, specialisation, combined arms tactical approach.

The French had an edge in terms of:
numbers, cavalry quality (and quantity), impetuousness and at the late stages technology.

The French lacked in leadership and training for the most part although when they were properly led by people like Bertrand du Guesclin that used the size of the areas the English had to occupy with their small numbers against them and avoided to give pitched battles in which the English excelled, or Jean D'Arc that favored frontal attacks and utter aggression that caught the English longbowmen unprepared at Patay and cleared the Loire valley with a swift stroke of determined assaults, they were capable of great feats.

The French in game terms in high and late have nothing special, but don't lack anything either. Their lack of unique units can be balanced by the closeness of Switzerland, that makes fine Pikes/Armored Pikes and most importantly halbs that eat the bills for breakfast.


I have not tried the Chivalric men-at-arms but I doubt they will be successful against the billmen.

Considering their stats and availability CMAA are probably one of the best heavy infantry (if not the best heavy infantry) in the game. Of course there are better units like CFK and JHI etc, however the former are too slow and have small numbers and high upkeep while teh JHI are scarce due to their build requirements.

CMAA should win against billmen most of the time.



I am really content with the Pronoiai Allagion

Pronoiai are ok but nothing special really - they will have to do though because by late the Byz have nothing else left (Kataphraktoi are antique and Byz lancers unavailable).

Statistically they have the same stats as Feudal Knights with one point more armor and reduced charge (6 instead of 8) iirc, so you need to soup them up with upgrades a bit to stand against late era cavalry.



I need to test the Naptha explosives

Although fun to use - they are a wild card - sometimes they'll do more damage than good and sometimes they'll draw more attention to them (in order for you to use them) than they deserve (you could use that attention to other units/parts of teh battle with better results imo).


I am not even sure whether they affect the defense in a hand-to hand combat.

They are in fact the best type of upgrade you can make and iirc they add +1 defense and +1 armor per armor upgrade.

You can check this easily by pressing F1 (or was it F2?) on the battlefield; this brings up a very comprehensive table of stats for all your present units. Check the defense stat against the base defence stat (which you can find in the crusaders_prod txt file or in frogbeastegg's unit guide).

The only times armor upgrades are not good is if you are going to fight in the desert - then they really make things worse for you as fatigue (and with it morale) drops like a lead ballon, or when you are focusing on speed/stamina (say for example you want your horse archers or swift chargers lik Alans, Byz lancers, mounted seargents etc to remain as speedy as possible).



On a different issue, the problem of the Late campaign is that when you finally manage to secure yourself financially (bribes!), the game is going to be over.

Try blitzing - its a whole different world and it has its fun - it needs a different set of skills than playing slow - yet it is satisfactory in its own way.

:bow:

[Roark]

CMAA should win against billmen most of the time.


Really? Wow, OK. Is it at a bloody cost, though?

I've always been terribly bill-shy with my CMAAs due to the fierce armour-piercing.

I have a hard time finding units that will kill Bills effectively. Valoured-up Highlanders (and other low-armour high-attack "barbarian"-type units) seem to be the only option for me, usually. Even then, they get butchered due to the rising toll of the Bills' spectacular defence (4?) and not-laughable attack (2?).

Bills are king.

[Roark]

As to Caravels, well... they are all-round the best ships in the game. Your only option in my mind is to take advantage of 1.) your imperial riches, and 2.) their inability to flee, and stomp them with large stacks of wargalleys/firegalleys. You will take losses due to galleys' sucky defence, unless you've got a superstar admiral/captain/commodore/whatever they're called.

[caravel]

the Billmen are overpowered.
Why do you hate stinking, sweaty englishmen with farming impliments?

I prefer camels though...


As to Caravels, well... they are all-round the best ships in the game.
Finally.

:yes:

[seireikhaan]

Hmm...

Did you try Byzantine cavalry? They're a tad expensive, but I think if the English are massing Bills on you, they're your best bet. Use heavy cav to scatter their archers, use the light cavalry to lauch mobile volleys at the bills to tire them out and whittle their numbers down. No shield for the bills, so arrows can be successful. Most of all, I guess I'd say to simply avoid pitched battle, and retreat if need be so you can harass their armies into the ground.

[Roark]

Finally.

:yes:

Haha... I was going to mention your prior homage to Caravels, but I thought it might confuse people, "Asai". :beam:

[Brandy Blue]

Some good suggestions here. I would just add:

1: javelin units make a less deadly but more reliable (less likely to backfire) option than naphta. Harder for Byzantium to get, unfortunately.

2: If you use naphta, its a good idea to take a throw away unit (generic spear type, for example) to pin the bills. That way if you blow your guys up, you don't lose a fancy spear unit.

Unfortunately, I don't really have experience with Byzantine vs England, so that's about all I can say.

[gollum]

Originally posted by Roark
Really? Wow, OK. Is it at a bloody cost, though?

Depends on the circimstances of the match up (slope, general, outnumbering penalties and upgrades) but they should win most of the time with some casualties if the bills take forever to brake. Bills have indeed the 2 ap attack and the massive 4 defence - however CMAA have 4a/3d and the 0.5 modifier shield and higher morale than the bills (4 against 2).


Originally posted by Yaseikhan
Did you try Byzantine cavalry? They're a tad expensive, but I think if the English are massing Bills on you, they're your best bet. Use heavy cav to scatter their archers, use the light cavalry to lauch mobile volleys at the bills to tire them out and whittle their numbers down. No shield for the bills, so arrows can be successful. Most of all, I guess I'd say to simply avoid pitched battle, and retreat if need be so you can harass their armies into the ground.

Sound tactics but i'd do it with vanilla horse archers - BC are a bit slow and have low stamina due to their substantial armor; they are however better for the charging/melee part, although again mass horse archers (4-5) can fit the bill (manner of speech) better imo.


Orignially posted by Caravel Nagamasa II
Why do you hate stinking, sweaty englishmen with farming impliments?

I love them hillbillies when i play vanilla England and as mercenaries. When adversaries they need special attention and make up for fun battles too, particularly in late that infastructure exists in place and they can be mass produced.

:bow:

[seireikhaan]

Sound tactics but i'd do it with vanilla horse archers - BC are a bit slow and have low stamina due to their substantial armor; they are however better for the charging/melee part, although again mass horse archers (4-5) can fit the bill (manner of speech) better imo.
While true that vanilla horse archers are better for stamina, I've always had all kinds of trouble keeping them alive against any decent army. Arrows rock them a hard one, and they have terrible morale. I feel that, if you've got the cash, byzantine are better for the job, flat out. For the byzantines, anyways, since they've not got any real good, pure horse archers.

Of course, knights will present a problem, but having a few units of pikeman/hired heavy spears could help fix them if the battle doesn't go tilting all sorts of awkward on you.

[Prince Cobra]

I think Gungalleys (which unfortunately I started to produce about 1435) are reliable. Question: I hunt light ships (barque) by separating my ships into 1 per stack. When attacking a Caravel do I have to keep 3-4 ships per stack? If there was a way to throw them out of Gibraltar and cut their link with Cordoba (in fact I contolled the Med), Cordoba would have been conquered.

Billmen. The main problem with the English was that I was simply not prepared to fight them. I was fighting the Spanish and I used small numbers of mercenaries (two units of billman and 1 longbow per 25 units; my main army was cavalry, Pronoiai). The Spanish main forces were destroyed in the battle for Morocco. I invaded Cordoba three times, the first one was my defeat, the second ended with a bloody battle (I bribed one of the stacks) that I won with horrible number of casualties (I've been the attacker) and retreat when the d*mned reinforcements arrived to lift the siege. The third invasion ended with no battle and bribing two stacks of enemy armies (which gave me about 6 units of Billman). The game ended the same turn.

I think archers are effective but it is impossible to destroy the unit to the extend you wish (and these mad men continue to fight even with halved unit), the enemy also has archers. Therefore, I am ready to sacrifice cheap units (I usually have no problems against the other units of the English stack) and use Naptha. I remember routing two units of Ghulam bodyguard for a unit of spearmen with Naptha. I believe only the Naptha can be efficient enough to destroy these devils.

The horse archers. My big problem is not keeping them on the field. I usually produce them in a province with a church (at least, I have a Cathedral in Constantinople). It's not really the problem. The problem is that the enemy usually has archers and this can be disastrous. Of course, unless I somehow manage to lure the enemy general (stupid knights) in my army but I have never attempted to do this. The good side of the Horse Archers is they are nice for chasing routers (speed!). The Byz cavalry is not bad but it is in limited numbers in my army. It is fun unit to play, though. If I ever decide to use hit-run tactics, I will go for HA made in a province with a church at the very least.

Ahhh, on the top of everything, my inns were empty (though with a keep only and on the border, which usually works well).

[gollum]

Originally posted by Yaseikhan
While true that vanilla horse archers are better for stamina, I've always had all kinds of trouble keeping them alive against any decent army. Arrows rock them a hard one, and they have terrible morale. I feel that, if you've got the cash, byzantine are better for the job, flat out. For the byzantines, anyways, since they've not got any real good, pure horse archers.

Of course, knights will present a problem, but having a few units of pikeman/hired heavy spears could help fix them if the battle doesn't go tilting all sorts of awkward on you.

Try them en masse (4-6 units) if you will. When outnumbering enemy missiles, they quickly gain the upper hand by outshooting enemy missiles (target them with all your has one by one and once reduced to more than halftarget next etc) after which the enemy is at your mercy because you can pester them from the flanks while fixing them in place with your main army (dont engage them- just fix their orientation by your presence). Only bolts can really brake them when used en masse and not in the way the AI uses crossbows/arbs.

If you have trouble keeping them in the field, practice a bit more in handling them - its not so much in micromanagement and speed but by mastering the morale and the interface. They can work wonders.

BC cost too much in maintenance and are way too powerful and slow/low stamina to be used as HAs imo.

And the Byzs do have pure HAs, the vanilla ones :yes:

:bow:

[bondovic]

Btw, I am quite sceptic of the armour upgrades (one silver armour province is more than enough, the other can go even without armour). I have the feeling they are only useful against the Mongols (protect from arrows) but are useless and even harmful because of the huge amount of armour piercing units and the fatigue. I am not even sure whether they affect the defense in a hand-to hand combat.

Adding armour via upgrades is never a bad thing in the regards to AP bonuses. I think you'd do well to look at this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=102475) - you seem to have the same misconception that I suffered from back then.

[Roark]

I think Gungalleys (which unfortunately I started to produce about 1435) are reliable. Question: I hunt light ships (barque) by separating my ships into 1 per stack. When attacking a Caravel do I have to keep 3-4 ships per stack?

I would say yes. Not too sure about gungalleys, but most other galley-line ships have terrible defence. Even if your gungalleys have 3 defence like Caravels, all it takes is a couple of stars on an enemy admiral to turn your scouring of the Med into a shocking debacle. Ships take AAAGES to build (so frustrating), and you should keep them in packs to defend each other and prevent losses.



The horse archers. My big problem is not keeping them on the field. I usually produce them in a province with a church (at least, I have a Cathedral in Constantinople). It's not really the problem. The problem is that the enemy usually has archers and this can be disastrous. Of course, unless I somehow manage to lure the enemy general (stupid knights) in my army but I have never attempted to do this. The good side of the Horse Archers is they are nice for chasing routers (speed!). The Byz cavalry is not bad but it is in limited numbers in my army. It is fun unit to play, though. If I ever decide to use hit-run tactics, I will go for HA made in a province with a church at the very least.


Yeah, HAs vs archers is a tricky one. Even if you've got 2 units of HAs missile-duelling with a single enemy infantry archer unit, they will tax you with attrition. If you're gonna do this, I would say use valoured up HAs or Byzantine Cavalry (who are a bit heavier). Duel for a little bit, and then rush in and try to panic the foot archers. They will try to run back behind their lines, which makes the faster HAs better for catching them, but the Byzantines will hit harder IF they catch them. So yeah, it's a tricky one...

I usually play it safe and keep ALL HAs (light or medium) away from infantry archers until they can get into a good flanking position, and then maybe try duelling and charging.

It's overall a better use of your (fast) HAs to draw cavalry away, though, or hassle units that can't fight back at a distance.

[The Lurker Below]

my most recent campaign have taken Poles. By the time I was all secure with a good income and set to roll the English and the Byzantines were completely dominate. I went patient and collected money while waiting for the Horde to drop the Byzantines a notch. Once the Horde struck both myself and the English took out big chunks of the Byzantines, with the English in a position to grab a lot more than I. Within a decade it was just my poor Poles and the English.

The massive numbers of Billmen and Longbows combined have made the English a very hard nut to crack. The Poles don't seem to produce very good heirs or generals. They also aren't given the crusade. I'm afraid I've had to lean on the Inquisitor and Spy crutch quite a bit and still barely make progress.

Billmen are way OP. They don't seem quite so much on paper, but in the field they are crazy tough. Walking into 100 armored spears as 60 Chiv swords crash their flank. They shrug off both attacks most of the time. I bring a third unit into their rear after they've taken a few casualties and they will then run. A very annoying adversary, but I must admit, this has been the most challenging and enjoyable campaign I've played.

[nzd07]

This is why the english are to overpowered, in my opinion. An army of longbows, bills, and some sort of elite cavalry (feudal,chivalric,norman knights) are just too unstoppable. I suppose you could try attacking them with byz infantry then flanking with alans or some fast cavalry. Or mabye throwing some crappy cheap unit at them then bombarding them with napthas (assuming the enemy cavalry dosen't take them out) or possibly try firing and retreating with arbalests (assuming they dont have longbows).

As for caravels, when I'm facing them (and have a galley civ) I usually just use my crappy low income islands/costal provinces and just build nonstop wargalleys/firegalleys. After i have stacked up a ton I went caravel hunting :). Another good tactic is to mass their ship building provinces, and every time they make a ship u have 8 there to take it out. :)

As for you losing, it looks like the russians/novgorods have more land than you. But I'm not sure about the hungarians.

Hope this helped!!