Suggestion concerning the Romans

[TancredTheNorman]

This is something of a gameplay suggestion, but perhaps for Rome's Marian Reforms, in EB 2 instead of first needing to win the campaign before you get the Marian Reforms, or having unbelievable luck the requirements are

172 BC
Carthage is destroyed
25-30 provinces
Must have (All Italian Cities) Some Greek Cities, all former Carthaginian holdings in Spain
Must have a treasury of one million sesterces
must have at least 6 Latifundia in Italy
Sweboz Aediu or Arverni must still be alive

To balance it perhaps The Marian soldiers should only have a discipline advantage over earlier Romans and be very expensive?

[Megas Methuselah]

What's the historial evidence to backup your suggestion?

[mountaingoat]

do you know otherwise?

[TancredTheNorman]

What's the historial evidence to backup your suggestion?

Easy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugurtha
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithridates_VI_of_Pontus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vercellae
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aquae_Sextiae
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallic_Wars


Those are just some of the post Marian wars, they do not suggest that Roman power was uncontested, nor do they seem to show Rome having an easy time. At the moment the Marian Reforms will only ever come along if you are uncontested. These are things that happened around Marius, and because EB is to a large extent changing history is there anything wrong with allowing the reforms to happen earlier? Thanks to the diplomacy AI Carthage will be destroyed earlier, the Spain will be in your sights earlier, the Sweboz simulating the Tuetones and Cimbri will be by earlier...

I also did make suggestions about making things closer to Rome's actual power then it is depicted now, i.e. Carthage has been destroyed and the Romans are struggling to subdue Spain while most of Gaul is still free, and Greece being partly subdued following the campaign of Aemilius Paulus. I also suggested making the Marian Reforms give less impact because they won't be so hard to get, the point being that Rome was already a formidable power before Marius, and the reforms happening the way they did was only due to a crisis (not conquest of the world mandating a stronger army).

[Megas Methuselah]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugurtha
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithridates_VI_of_Pontus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vercellae
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aquae_Sextiae
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallic_Wars


Nah bro, sorry for being unclear, but I meant these:


25-30 provinces
Must have a treasury of one million sesterces
To balance it perhaps The Marian soldiers should only have a discipline advantage over earlier Romans and be very expensive

[TancredTheNorman]

Nah bro, sorry for being unclear, but I meant these:

It's ok, and the reason for that is Marius didn't change as much as the description of the reforms would have us think.

To start with soldiers were still recruited from citizens and latins, they just didn't have to fit a property requirement or provide anything, the state provided the weapons. Marius was not an inventor, he didn't create the Lorica Hamata, it was already available.

The reason for 25-30 provinces is in order to make sure the Roman player is making progress similar to what the Romans actually did, the size of the Republic's Empire was much smaller before Marius then people think.

One million sesterces is in order to simulate the flow of gold into Rome following the Punic Wars changing Roman Society.


Marian Soldiers also don't need to be recruitable everywere, perhaps only in provinces the Romans actually owned, had fully developed, unsubdued, and loyal at the time of Marius? I should have included this in the original but being recruitable everywere is going way overboard, citizenship was still required.

So in other words the places that get to train Marians under my idea would be Italy, Sicily, Corsica, Gallia Narbonensis (Tolosa) Illyricum, with Africa Procunsularis excluded because the Optimates rejected colonization, and caused the Gracchi's attempt at it to fail.

Destroying Carthage is only because the Punic Wars are what gave birth to the Empire outside of Italy.

[seienchin]

I also think the Marian Reforms should need less provinces, because in EB1, when you got the marian reforms, your empire had to be almost as large as rome to augustus times, which is in my opinion a bad decission, because as Tancred said, the marian reforms came because they were needed and after the reforms romes power grew incredible after a short period of time.

[Horatius Flaccus]

I believe reforms are handled completely different in EBII, so we will just have to wait and see.

[Tenebrous]

Agreed, I've been thinking about modding my own Marian reform, trying to get the requirements based solely on terrirories that were controlled in the pre-marian period, plus a much earlier date, like 240-230. Republican Rome wasn't that large. I don't know a thing about scripting, but this map is the best approximation I have found for what i would consider appropriate territories if anyone has the time and ability to make a new script.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Expansion_of_Rome,_2nd_century_BC.gif

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Expansion_of_Rome,_2nd_century_BC.gif

Keep in mind the Marian "reforms" took place late second century, so this was the territory at the time of Marius.

[Ca Putt]

looks like ca 50 provinces

[TancredTheNorman]

looks like ca 50 provinces

Not even close to that.

The map is also out of context, the Asian provinces were lost to Mithradates, and much of the African province to Jugartha, and Massalia was technically independent, and the map in EB terms gives the Romans Gergovia which they didn't have.

Besides I compared map to EB provinces, you don't get anywere near 50 provinces that way.

[Mulceber]

Nah, that looks like about...48, if I had to guess. Right now my Romani game is about the same size, maybe slightly smaller - mainly in Spain, and without the African Provinces, and it's at 41. So if you add about 4 provinces in Spain, 4 in Africa, and maybe one for that Northern wing in Gaul, that would make 50, but minus two since the Romans didn't have Panonia or Byzantium (both of which I have). -M

[V.T. Marvin]

Well, according to my counting the green area of the map equals 19 provinces in EB, while the orange one adds further 28 provinces. So if from 20-25 provinces the possibility of achieving CONDITIONAL reforms would be unlocked and from 45-50 it was made significantly easier to achieve (for instance the precise requirement for certain character traits would no longer ne necessary) or even unconditional, it would in effect might be fairly fair trade-off between historicity and gameplay, IMO.

[Reno Melitensis]

Very interesting discussion, but you must not forget that the reforms of Marius where not so drastic and dramatic as some argue. First he wanted the Senate to give him additional troops. By the time of the Gracchi the minimum requirement for military service was already at a minimum, and Rome was at a difficulty raising legions on the old citizen system. Marius simply asked the proletarii to join him with the promise of glory and booty. These men where those that served as Velites and light troops in the manipular legions. The main reason for this crises was the huge number of slave from Carthage, Numantia and other regions imported in Italy and work in the Latifundas. So in my opinian one of the triggers for the Marian reforms in EB II must be that at least Rome is a huge city and three other cities must reach large city plus seven Latifundas built in Italaia, and off course a not late than and not early than date. These where the main reasons why Rome became a super power, and in EB terms if it is not Carthage that falls, any other faction will do, we are not playing for accuracy but for fun. After 272 BC all historical context with the game is lost.

Cheers.

[Macilrille]

Do not count green area, look in my timeline; 42-43 cities.

[TancredTheNorman]

I might just be counting wrong, but the map doesn't look like too many provinces, I was guessing 4 African, 9 Italian, 3 Sicilian, 3 Islands, 10 Greek, 7 Spanish for a total of 36?, and making the remaining 14 provinces could mean you must destroy a faction.

I also as I pointed out propose that the quality difference between Marian and pre-Marian soldiers be drastically reduced, and the area of recruitment also be drastically reduced although it should still be higher compared to Polybian and Camillan.

[Macilrille]

Well, there is general agrement amongst military historians that the Legionnaires after Marius' reforms were of much higher quality. Camp followers, etc was by and large done away with and the army had to carry everything for itself for example. That symbolises a tightening of discipline and a toughening of the troops. Yet it was probably more prevalent amongst good generals than bad ones (Varus' army was weighed down by camp followers and bagage train for example, but they were on their way to winter quarters in a pacified province- or so they thought), and Scipio Africanus has AFAICR done much the same. Perhaps the quality should be variable depending on who recruits them; good generals adding a chevron or something like that.
In any case, I cannot endorse the idea of lowering the quality of marian legionairres and the Polybian-Camillan ones are by no means bad troops. In fact they are amongst the best infantry you can get, as it should be.
If you count on the chronological list of Roman conquests I made, it is 42 conquests and 1-2 firm and romanised allies by 107 BC. No need to use something as inexact as an unprecise online map. But the area of recruitment should be smaller at start, for in the Civil Wars Caesar's oppnents raised new legions in Hellas, Bithynia-Pergamon, North Africa and Spain, so it was doable in emergencies.

[Mulceber]

But the area of recruitment should be smaller at start,

Well, it basically is: I've only gotten the Marian reforms once so far, but from what I recall, my first Marian legions ended up being recruited in Italy because, while the other regions now had MIC's, they were all level 1 MIC's, and Cohortes Reformatae required at least a level 3 or level 4 MIC, IIRC - that means that you aren't able to recruit Marian troops throughout the Empire for at least 3.5 years. -M

[seienchin]

Well, it basically is: I've only gotten the Marian reforms once so far, but from what I recall, my first Marian legions ended up being recruited in Italy because, while the other regions now had MIC's, they were all level 1 MIC's, and Cohortes Reformatae required at least a level 3 or level 4 MIC, IIRC - that means that you aren't able to recruit Marian troops throughout the Empire for at least 3.5 years. -M
Exactly. Besides they need to many provinces and time to reach the Marian reforms in Eb were great the way they are. Took long, long years to get high barack levels outside of italy.