View Full Version : EB1 units?
In EB2, will EB1 units be tampered with just a little bit , or will they change significantly? Specifically Gauls and Germans (And even more specifically, the Gaesatae)
everything is being remade from scratch.
Megas Methuselah
04-03-2010, 07:39
everything is being remade from scratch.
?? Huh? They're still basing the mod on the research they used for EB1. That means you will see many of the same units in EB2, such as Classical Hoplites, Thureophorioi, various phalangites, Dacian Light Phalanxes, etc.
Iron Fist
04-03-2010, 08:52
I think he meant that units are remodeled from scratch, but yeah, most of the units that are going to be in EB2 were in EB1 too.
ARCHIPPOS
04-03-2010, 10:09
can you guys please consider salvaging some of the EB1 models ??? I have a soft spot for some of them...and it will save you some time anyway , no ???
Many EBII units represent the same men as the EBI units. But that doesn't mean their equipment hasn't changed. EBII units wll generally speaking have less armour for example.
can you guys please consider salvaging some of the EB1 models ??? I have a soft spot for some of them...and it will save you some time anyway , no ???
Not possible to do. All models are being redone. The RTW models are much lower quality and different scale and proportion.
Foot
Krusader
04-03-2010, 16:08
Many EBII units represent the same men as the EBI units. But that doesn't mean their equipment hasn't changed. EBII units wll generally speaking have less armour for example.
To follow up on Moros, some units will be a bit different too, as we were restrained by a 250 model limit in EB1 and unlimited in EB2. In EB1 we had to use 3 or sometimes 4 units on the same model, which limited what equipment could be used.
athanaric
04-03-2010, 16:59
Many EBII units represent the same men as the EBI units. But that doesn't mean their equipment hasn't changed.
As in: Georgian infantry with axes? :yes:
EBII units will generally speaking have less armour for example.
Does that apply for all factions or mainly the Hellenistic/Semitic/Eastern ones? I mean, the Barbarians in EB I are already pretty low on armour.
In general yes. EB I always represented the most armoured guy from the unit.
Note that some factions did get a bigger overhaul and changes in units than others. The British units look rather different too me. The arabians are changed rather too, no more pants or tunics for them.
Bucefalo
04-03-2010, 19:12
Obviousy what he meant is that the Gaesatae modesty patch will only consist in a single leaf, making the mod maturity rate rise up to a frightening 18 +
On a more serious note, i think when he said overall he just meant that. From the celts/dacians we have seen there is a notable lack of armour, but i think it is actually much more realistic that way. I would expect hellenic factions to have more armour but nothing close to the level of the original EB.
athanaric
04-03-2010, 19:49
In general yes. EB I always represented the most armoured guy from the unit.
But in some cases, units in EB I (like Dugundiz or Toxotai) look unarmoured while having an armour rating of 2.
The arabians are changed rather too, no more pants or tunics for them.
Hehe, Ibrahim will be thrilled...
Hehe, Ibrahim will be thrilled...
that was an understatement. :clown:
gamegeek2
04-03-2010, 22:20
that was an understatement. :clown:
Get back to work! :whip: (I have EB2 so I have an excuse :D)
Get back to work! :whip:
Get back to work! :whip:
~;)
Mediolanicus
04-04-2010, 10:16
But in some cases, units in EB I (like Dugundiz or Toxotai) look unarmoured while having an armour rating of 2.
The armour rating gives protection against missiles.
Unarmoured units can evade missiles more easily than armoured units, thus they get a low armour rating instead of no armour rating.
athanaric
04-04-2010, 10:33
The armour rating gives protection against missiles.
Unarmoured units can evade missiles more easily than armoured units, thus they get a low armour rating instead of no armour rating.
Yet Nubian spearmen have an armour rating of zero, despite being described as reasonably good fighters.
Yet Nubian spearmen have an armour rating of zero, despite being described as reasonably good fighters.
They don't wear shirts.
Mediolanicus
04-04-2010, 16:40
Yet Nubian spearmen have an armour rating of zero, despite being described as reasonably good fighters.
They don't wear shirts.
Perfectly reasonable explanation
The armour rating gives protection against missiles.
Unarmoured units can evade missiles more easily than armoured units, thus they get a low armour rating instead of no armour rating.
Hm, interesting. Perhaps it would make more sense to give "agile" units a shield bonus rather than armor? That way there's a directional aspect to the improved defense, which seems more logical to me.
They don't wear shirts.
:laugh4: LOL
athanaric
04-04-2010, 18:58
They don't wear shirts.
Wow. Germanic and Greek shirts certainly were tough. Must've been all the dirt...
Mediolanicus
04-04-2010, 19:02
Hm, interesting. Perhaps it would make more sense to give "agile" units a shield bonus rather than armor? That way there's a directional aspect to the improved defense, which seems more logical to me.
So you can only evade missiles and blows that come from your front and left side?
Many EBII units represent the same men as the EBI units. But that doesn't mean their equipment hasn't changed. EBII units wll generally speaking have less armour for example.
On the subject of EBII units: without every soldier having the same skin anymore, how will we see a difference between common units used by different factions (thureophoroi, greek classical hoplites, phalangitai,...)? For example Epeirote Sphendonetai were green, Makedonian slingers were pure white with a reddish brown shield, AS slingers had a red hairband and a greyish shield, etc etc
Megas Methuselah
04-04-2010, 20:48
On the subject of EBII units: without every soldier having the same skin anymore, how will we see a difference between common units used by different factions (thureophoroi, greek classical hoplites, phalangitai,...)? For example Epeirote Sphendonetai were green, Makedonian slingers were pure white with a reddish brown shield, AS slingers had a red hairband and a greyish shield, etc etc
Armies back then were rarely uniformed. Aside from occasional emblems on shields, cultural differences (armour styles, dress styles, etc.), and ethnic differences (skin/hair colour), it will be rather difficult to distinguish friend from foe.
it will be rather difficult to distinguish friend from foe.
And that is how we like it! Makes commanding an army that much more difficult, which is certainly required given that we will still be dealing with a largely under-developed Ai.
Foot
So you can only evade missiles and blows that come from your front and left side?
Well it's certainly not impossible, but I think its fairly safe to say that you can dodge incoming missle more effectively when you can see them coming. Unless unarmored units possess spider-sense.
:sagittarius: :spider:
Horatius Flaccus
04-05-2010, 00:25
On the subject of EBII units: without every soldier having the same skin anymore, how will we see a difference between common units used by different factions (thureophoroi, greek classical hoplites, phalangitai,...)? For example Epeirote Sphendonetai were green, Makedonian slingers were pure white with a reddish brown shield, AS slingers had a red hairband and a greyish shield, etc etc
If you look at this (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=113007) preview, you will see that those units will differ from eachother. Though not much.
Power2the1
04-05-2010, 04:04
Obviousy what he meant is that the Gaesatae modesty patch will only consist in a single leaf, making the mod maturity rate rise up to a frightening 18 +
On a more serious note, i think when he said overall he just meant that. From the celts/dacians we have seen there is a notable lack of armour, but i think it is actually much more realistic that way. I would expect hellenic factions to have more armour but nothing close to the level of the original EB.
Quite true, it is historical that way. I do not know if this is possible, but I would love to see a penalty on player using hordes of chainmail wearing Celts. Absolutely a-historical. Look here for the overall reason why, starting with post #96: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?126875-Low-Gaul-morale
Get back to work! :whip: (I have EB2 so I have an excuse :D)
well, I am working. prolem is, I'm working at all the speed of continental drift. :clown:
(srsly, everytime I think i have time for more models, I get sidetracked by events in RL. I only finished 2 models, and have to rework a third, since you want a spear and bow instead of a lance and sword)
I'll get the remade arabian noble out on thursday-I hope.
Bucefalo
04-05-2010, 10:02
Quite true, it is historical that way. I do not know if this is possible, but I would love to see a penalty on player using hordes of chainmail wearing Celts. Absolutely a-historical. Look here for the overall reason why, starting with post #96: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?126875-Low-Gaul-morale
Thanks for pointing to that thread, it was a very interesting read. I also agree that the game do not make much sense if you just play to win by all means, it is just boring and personally i think EB lend itself to roleplay and trying to recreate historic armies. Otherwise there is not much point in having so much historical accuracy if then you are just going to use totally unrealistic armies. I think it depends the most on how the player wants to play, as no matter how many handicaps you put the players that want to win at all cost will always find a way to get around, but still i think it is worth to add some restrictions to at least make it harder to abuse and specially to "guide" players as to what would be a realistic composition of an army.
For example in the case of the armoured celt units, here are some ideas: those units could take longer to recruit than others, have a very low replenishment rate, and very high upkeep. That could discourage players from recruiting many of them and having them sitting on their towns until they need them. As for their role in battles they could have a quite higher "heat" stat (in M2TW this makes the unit tire much faster) plus perhaps could have reduced movement speed (with the move_speed_mod stat), so you can´t have them running around the battlefield, and pretty much need the other troops as well. The thing would be to make using an army of armoured troops alone useless, because they would get surrounded/tired faster, and would need the other unarmoured troops to make up for their weaknesses.
Just throwing some ideas, i realise it´s hard to find a good balance, and that in the end it will depend the most on the player to use the appropiate units. But if some restrictions/handicaps can be placed to encourage the use of realistic armies then it would be a very good addition. Lastly another thing i would appreciate much (perhaps after the release when there is more time) is some article or guideline describing what the typical army of X faction looked like, so those that would like to roleplay but don´t have much knowledge can have a reference of how to approach the recruitment and ratio between units for a more realistic army composition.
For example in the case of the armoured celt units, here are some ideas: those units could take longer to recruit than others, have a very low replenishment rate, and very high upkeep. That could discourage players from recruiting many of them and having them sitting on their towns until they need them.
Based on what I've read from the team members, I believe they do infact intend to use M2TW's much improved recruitment system to customize the replinishment rates (and pool sizes) of units they intend to be rarer. That way they don't have to just make them ridiculously expensive like in EB1 (though they may decide to anyway). As far as keeping elites from sitting around in cities as garrisons, they could simply not give them the Free Upkeep attribute
Thank you for all of the posts! But when I added that bit about the Gaesatae, well, I was wondering if anyone thought that they were overpowered? The way I see it, they are a lot like the German Berserker unit in Vanilla, able to crush just about any other infantry, and have 2 HP. Only when I played Vanilla Rome, Berserkers could not take down elephants. Yet, when I did a custom battle,Aedui vs Arche Seleukeia,and the Gaesatae charged the elephants, not only did they route the elephants, they also killed half of them!?:dizzy2: So, will they be the same in EB2? Will they be more like the Berserker from Vanilla in EB2? Or less powerful then that??:inquisitive:
Mediolanicus
04-06-2010, 12:26
Based on what I've read from the team members, I believe they do infact intend to use M2TW's much improved recruitment system to customize the replinishment rates (and pool sizes) of units they intend to be rarer. That way they don't have to just make them ridiculously expensive like in EB1 (though they may decide to anyway). As far as keeping elites from sitting around in cities as garrisons, they could simply not give them the Free Upkeep attribute
The price of EB I units had not that much to do with AI recruitment AFAIK.
Training and maintaining a military was just ridiculously expensive on its own...
Megas Methuselah
04-06-2010, 17:28
Thank you for all of the posts! But when I added that bit about the Gaesatae, well, I was wondering if anyone thought that they were overpowered? The way I see it, they are a lot like the German Berserker unit in Vanilla, able to crush just about any other infantry, and have 2 HP. Only when I played Vanilla Rome, Berserkers could not take down elephants. Yet, when I did a custom battle,Aedui vs Arche Seleukeia,and the Gaesatae charged the elephants, not only did they route the elephants, they also killed half of them!?:dizzy2: So, will they be the same in EB2? Will they be more like the Berserker from Vanilla in EB2? Or less powerful then that??:inquisitive:
Yeah, EB Team members have been repeatedly stating that those guys are going to be toned down. I myself modify the in-game files of EB 1 to give them 1hp.
Power2the1
04-06-2010, 18:17
Thanks for pointing to that thread, it was a very interesting read. I also agree that the game do not make much sense if you just play to win by all means, it is just boring and personally i think EB lend itself to roleplay and trying to recreate historic armies. Otherwise there is not much point in having so much historical accuracy if then you are just going to use totally unrealistic armies. I think it depends the most on how the player wants to play, as no matter how many handicaps you put the players that want to win at all cost will always find a way to get around, but still i think it is worth to add some restrictions to at least make it harder to abuse and specially to "guide" players as to what would be a realistic composition of an army.
For example in the case of the armoured celt units, here are some ideas: those units could take longer to recruit than others, have a very low replenishment rate, and very high upkeep. That could discourage players from recruiting many of them and having them sitting on their towns until they need them. As for their role in battles they could have a quite higher "heat" stat (in M2TW this makes the unit tire much faster) plus perhaps could have reduced movement speed (with the move_speed_mod stat), so you can´t have them running around the battlefield, and pretty much need the other troops as well. The thing would be to make using an army of armoured troops alone useless, because they would get surrounded/tired faster, and would need the other unarmoured troops to make up for their weaknesses.
Just throwing some ideas, i realise it´s hard to find a good balance, and that in the end it will depend the most on the player to use the appropiate units. But if some restrictions/handicaps can be placed to encourage the use of realistic armies then it would be a very good addition. Lastly another thing i would appreciate much (perhaps after the release when there is more time) is some article or guideline describing what the typical army of X faction looked like, so those that would like to roleplay but don´t have much knowledge can have a reference of how to approach the recruitment and ratio between units for a more realistic army composition.
Some interesting ideas I had forgotten about the heat stat, and that would be very realistic. I have a leather jerkin and a suit of chainmail, and I can admit that when I fight in it, the heat you generate and contain within the armor rapidly rises. It does get very hot as the leather does not 'breath' as the chainmail does. It would be twice as bad for units wearing those metal curiasses as well I would think since there is no degree flexibility in the curiass compared to the leather. If you are not in great shape you will certainly be miserable and all but worthless in a fight. I am in great shape because I work out, eat right, and fight a lot, but I have seen others wear it who are not prepared for the physical exertion of an extra 35lbs. or so on them, and they are certainly bested rather quickly, with or without leather under the mail. They also move very slowly as they try to not run out of strength or energy, which again makes them rather worthless in a fight.
Thank you for all of the posts! But when I added that bit about the Gaesatae, well, I was wondering if anyone thought that they were overpowered? The way I see it, they are a lot like the German Berserker unit in Vanilla, able to crush just about any other infantry, and have 2 HP. Only when I played Vanilla Rome, Berserkers could not take down elephants. Yet, when I did a custom battle,Aedui vs Arche Seleukeia,and the Gaesatae charged the elephants, not only did they route the elephants, they also killed half of them!?:dizzy2: So, will they be the same in EB2? Will they be more like the Berserker from Vanilla in EB2? Or less powerful then that??:inquisitive:
The Gaesatae in EB2 will be professional warriors that will certainly kick butt against many units, but they will not be able to take down elephants by themselves, unless theres an overwhelming amount of them. Their overpowering stats will be corrected and they'll be brought back down to earth to a more realistic level.
Some interesting ideas I had forgotten about the heat stat, and that would be very realistic. I have a leather jerkin and a suit of chainmail, and I can admit that when I fight in it, the heat you generate and contain within the armor rapidly rises. It does get very hot as the leather does not 'breath' as the chainmail does. It would be twice as bad for units wearing those metal curiasses as well I would think since there is no degree flexibility in the curiass compared to the leather. If you are not in great shape you will certainly be miserable and all but worthless in a fight. I am in great shape because I work out, eat right, and fight a lot, but I have seen others wear it who are not prepared for the physical exertion of an extra 35lbs. or so on them, and they are certainly bested rather quickly, with or without leather under the mail. They also move very slowly as they try to not run out of strength or energy, which again makes them rather worthless in a fight.
The Gaesatae in EB2 will be professional warriors that will certainly kick butt against many units, but they will not be able to take down elephants by themselves, unless theres an overwhelming amount of them. Their overpowering stats will be corrected and they'll be brought back down to earth to a more realistic level.
Yes, the armor does tend to completely tire and demoralise people who are not ready for the extra weight. I sword fight with a friend of mine, who's uncle creates armor and sells it for a living. I'm a fairly large guy, so my armor weighs well over 50 lbs. But, I already do hard work, and I also eat right and work out, so the armor doesn't affect me that much. It also probably doesn't hurt that we do push-ups, sit-ups, train, etc., while wearing weight pads. But shouldn't elite warriors who train constantly and who have obviously seen quite a bit of battle, have awesome stamina, even in armor?
I can understand Gaesatae taking down elephants as being overpowered, but shouldn't they still be infantry killers? If they are on battle drugs, then how is 2HP so unrealistic? (when I posted this I did not realise that they were on drugs :embarassed:) Maybe they should have a large penalty against elephants?:juggle2:
athanaric
04-07-2010, 11:30
Yeah, EB Team members have been repeatedly stating that those guys are going to be toned down. I myself modify the in-game files of EB 1 to give them 1hp.
That was just what I had in mind. Is it savegame compatible?
Mediolanicus
04-07-2010, 12:26
That was just what I had in mind. Is it savegame compatible?
Yes, changes to the EDU are save game compatilbe. Just remember to alter the right EDU if you're using the trivial script.
Power2the1
04-07-2010, 15:09
Yes, the armor does tend to completely tire and demoralise people who are not ready for the extra weight. I sword fight with a friend of mine, who's uncle creates armor and sells it for a living. I'm a fairly large guy, so my armor weighs well over 50 lbs. But, I already do hard work, and I also eat right and work out, so the armor doesn't affect me that much. It also probably doesn't hurt that we do push-ups, sit-ups, train, etc., while wearing weight pads. But shouldn't elite warriors who train constantly and who have obviously seen quite a bit of battle, have awesome stamina, even in armor?
I can understand Gaesatae taking down elephants as being overpowered, but shouldn't they still be infantry killers? If they are on battle drugs, then how is 2HP so unrealistic? (when I posted this I did not realise that they were on drugs :embarassed:) Maybe they should have a large penalty against elephants?:juggle2:
Awesome, we've another fighter on the board!
The elite warriors could certainly be exempt from this. I am not 'elite' lol, but the chainmail, leather jerkin, and Normandy Agen Port helmet I wear is 35lbs., my hexagonal thureos/Celtic shield is right at the 13-15lbs. mark (temperature/humidity changes the weight as its heavily padded) and I can fight/run around basically for 5 hours with three 15 minute breaks and I do alright, but I am not constantly running around. Since, of course, my life is not in true danger maybe the adrenaline rushes I get are not as intense as if you were really fighting for your life, but I do excellent in my panoply. Most of the guys I fight wear little armor, if any, so its like heavy infantry vs. light infantry, and they are quite fast obviously. However, I can generally keep up with them no problem, and sprinting across the fields is not as exhausting as some think.
Its great to know you work and eat right too. I think that is certainly half of what makes a good fighter in terms of not tiring and having the stamina and endurance. You may not be a great fighter or sword master because of it as I certainly do my share of dying, but it gives outstanding stamina, especially in comparison to the 'burger, fries, and soda crowd' that I usually face :sick:.
With the Gaesatae, they'll be infantry killers, but against elites they will not cut through them like butter. It will be much harder.
athanaric
04-07-2010, 16:19
With the Gaesatae, they'll be infantry killers, but against elites they will not cut through them like butter. It will be much harder.
I guess that IRL they would have had a hard time against the likes of Argoi or Hypaspistai, seeing as those were armoured professional elites...
Power2the1
04-07-2010, 18:02
I guess that IRL they would have had a hard time against the likes of Argoi or Hypaspistai, seeing as those were armoured professional elites...
Yes, that is exactly it. Players who relied upon them heavily in EB1 to turn battles will need to change their tactics since the Gaesatae will not have that same level of invincibility. I remember I decreased their hit point to 1 long ago and played like that, and that made a big difference. They were realisticaly strong, not godly strong if you get my meaning.
With the Gaesatae, they'll be infantry killers, but against elites they will not cut through them like butter. It will be much harder.
Yes, that sounds real. But if the Gaesatae are elites, then they should still be able to go toe to toe with other elites, yes? Not get cut down easily just because there naked? I was sort of hoping that when you are done they will be possibly as strong as the Woithiz Wāthā, that German naked fanatic, or the Worgōzez.
Awesome, we've another fighter on the board!
The elite warriors could certainly be exempt from this. I am not 'elite' lol, but the chainmail, leather jerkin, and Normandy Agen Port helmet I wear is 35lbs., my hexagonal thureos/Celtic shield is right at the 13-15lbs. mark (temperature/humidity changes the weight as its heavily padded) and I can fight/run around basically for 5 hours with three 15 minute breaks and I do alright, but I am not constantly running around. Since, of course, my life is not in true danger maybe the adrenaline rushes I get are not as intense as if you were really fighting for your life, but I do excellent in my panoply. Most of the guys I fight wear little armor, if any, so its like heavy infantry vs. light infantry, and they are quite fast obviously. However, I can generally keep up with them no problem, and sprinting across the fields is not as exhausting as some think.
Its great to know you work and eat right too. I think that is certainly half of what makes a good fighter in terms of not tiring and having the stamina and endurance. You may not be a great fighter or sword master because of it as I certainly do my share of dying, but it gives outstanding stamina, especially in comparison to the 'burger, fries, and soda crowd' that I usually face :sick:.
Yeah, you've got to eat right! We eat all natural over here, I can't even remember the last time we bought food from a store! We grow and raise everything ourselves, and it is definitely important for all physical activity! NATURAL supplements don't hurt either, but as long as you eat a NATURAL balanced diet, you don't need those. I've also noticed that height plays an important factor, as long as you use it right. The guys I sword fight with average about 5'6-5'7, and I am about 6'6 and a half. I am the best of them, but it's not so much height related, as it is how much time I train and how I eat, and considering how they eat and train, it's really unfair for them. The only other guy who takes it really seriously is the one with the armourer for an uncle. I can take on the other 4 guys by myself and usually win, but this other guy is another story. We both started training with longswords. Because I am actually quite strong, I started using a sword that closely resembles a Claymore, and for the next few weeks I destroyed him, so he started using more or less a Roman Gladius. Soon after, he adopted the Roman shield as well. This was surprisingly effective, and I had waste most of my offensive sword power on keeping him away, and relied on a few "legal" body attacks...(a kick, or a strike from the arm) But I considered that cheap, so I started using the Claymore one handed ( surprisingly hard, at first), and used a large Celtic style shield.(Which, come to think of it, looks an awful lot like the Gaesatae shield :laugh4:) My overweight battle gear totaled to about 130 lbs, but like I said I train constantly to wear the stuff, and It didn't really hamper me (after 2 months of tough traing with it all). Using my shield to block his stabs, I was able to strike at him with my sword, and because he's a head shorter then me and I could keep him at bay by keeping the huge shield low, I could attack from the skies! (I even used my shield as a weapon, since it had a boss built into it, and I sent him teetering in his Roman armor to the ground:laugh4:) He later abandoned the Roman armor, but kept the shield and gladius. We're still friends, but he is constantly trying to figure out new ways to beat me. He has studied books and articles on how the Romans fought and tried to adopt them, but it seems to me they would only really shine against an untrained mob composed of large men!:laugh4:
I think I kind of wandered off topic there, but it's almost eleven o'clock where I am,and i am pretty tired, I have been working since 7 am! The point of that paragraph is that he eats better and trains better than the other four guys, and therefore I have to actually put effort into fighting him, always watching to make sure he doesn't swoop in with his short sword and gut me!:furious3: ( Glad to see there are some fellow fighters on the Forum as well! I think someone who actually fights would appreciate the work you fellows do more than someone who has never handled a sword or spear! But that's just my theory!)
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