Polish president killed in a plane crash

[Ibn-Khaldun]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/3569743/Polish-president-feared-dead-in-Russia-plane-crash

Don't know what to add.
My condolences to any Polish member in the Org.

[Furunculus]

weird, the better half flew back from poland yesterday.

[cegorach]

Over 80 people dead.

Several important officials - at least 30 I respected a lot.

Several political figures, though mostly politicians who would leave the stage in time of next 1-2 years.


Looking at the list of the people who died... I disliked many of them, especially the president.
Frankly I despised him and wished him a long, long life after retirement.


It is a shocking event. For some time I will avoid writing anything about consequences of the tragedy and they are enormous
Rarely elites of opposition parties - especially populist-nationalist Law and Justice are obliterated in a moment.


National mourning will be started, announced by acting president, speaker of the Sejm (and a candidate for the president) Bronisław Komorowski.

[Banquo's Ghost]

A terrible tragedy, and coming on the eve of a step towards rapprochement between Poland and Russia over Katyn. There were also many senior members of the Polish establishment on that plane.

[cegorach]

A terrible tragedy, and coming on the eve of a step towards rapprochement between Poland and Russia over Katyn. There were also many senior members of the Polish establishment on that plane.

The reapprochment has been started earlier. The celebrations on Wednesday play very important part.



Actually I was going to start a thread here tomorow after (planned) today's event in Katyń would be over.

Not anymore, it would be a bit too early after the disaster.

[cegorach]

Here is list of all people on plane.

Pan Lech KACZYŃSKI President – Republic of Poland

Pani Maria KACZYŃSKA President wife

OFFICIAL DELEGATION

1. Pan Ryszard KACZOROWSKI - former president of Poland in Exile
2. Pan Krzysztof PUTRA - Deputy Speaker of the Sejm
3. Pan Jerzy SZMAJDZIŃSKI - Deputy Speaker of the Sejm
4. Pani Krystyna BOCHENEK - Deputy Speaker of the Senate
5. Pan Jerzy BAHR - Polish Ambassador to the Russian Federation
6. Pan Władysław STASIAK - Head of the Presidential Chancellery
7. Pan Aleksander SZCZYGŁO - Head of National Security
8.
9. Pan Paweł WYPYCH - Secretary of State in the President's Chancellery
10. Pan Mariusz HANDZLIK - Undersecretary of State in the Chancellery of the President
11. Pan Andrzej KREMER - Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs
12. Pan Stanisław KOMOROWSKI - Undersecretary of State, Ministry of Defense
13. Pan Tomasz MERTA - Undersecretary of State in the Ministry of Culture
14. Gen. Franciszek GĄGOR - - Chief of General Staff of Polish Army
15. Pan Andrzej PRZEWOŹNIK - Secretary ROPWiM
16. Pan Maciej PŁAŻYŃSKI - President of the Association "Polish Community"
17. Pan Mariusz KAZANA - Director of the MFA Diplomatic Protocol

PARLIAMENT REPRESENTATIVES

1. Pan Leszek DEPTUŁA - Deputy to the Sejm
2. Pan Grzegorz DOLNIAK - Deputy to the Sejm
3. Pani Grażyna GĘSICKA - Deputy to the Sejm
4. Pan Przemysław GOSIEWSKI - Deputy to the Sejm
5. Pan Sebastian KARPINIUK - Deputy to the Sejm
6. Pani Izabela JARUGA – NOWACKA - Deputy to the Sejm
7. Pan Zbigniew WASSERMANN - Deputy to the Sejm
8. Pani Aleksandra NATALLI – ŚWIAT - Deputy to the Sejm
10. Pan Arkadiusz RYBICKI - Deputy to the Sejm
11. Pani Jolanta SZYMANEK – DERESZ - Deputy to the Sejm
12. Pan Wiesław WODA - Deputy to the Sejm
13. Pan Edward WOJTAS - Deputy to the Sejm
14. Pani Janina FETLIŃSKA - Senator RP
15. Pan Stanisław ZAJĄC - Senator RP

ACCOMPANYING PERSONS

1. Pan Janusz KOCHANOWSKI - Ombudsman
2. Pan Sławomir SKRZYPEK - President of the Polish National Bank
3. Pan Janusz KURTYKA - President of the Institute of National Remembrance
4. Pan Janusz KRUPSKI - Head of the Office for War Veterans and Repressed Persons

REPRESENTATIVES Churches and Religious Affairs

1. Ks. Bp. gen. dyw. Tadeusz PŁOSKI - Ordinary of the Polish Army
2. Abp gen. bryg. Miron CHODAKOWSKI - Orthodox Ordinary Polish Army
3. Ks. płk Adam PILCH - Protestant Chaplaincy Field
4. Ks. ppłk Jan OSIŃSKI - Ordinariate of the Polish Army

Katyn Families REPRESENTATIVES AND OTHER ASSOCIATIONS

1. Pan Edward DUCHNOWSKI - Secretary General of Association of Siberian Deportees
2. Ks. prałat Bronisław GOSTOMSKI
3. Ks. Józef JONIEC Prezes Stowarzyszenia Parafiada
4. Ks. Zdzisław KRÓL Kapelan Warszawskiej Rodziny Katyńskiej 1987-2007
5. Ks. Andrzej KWAŚNIK Kapelan Federacji Rodzin Katyńskich
6. Pan Tadeusz LUTOBORSKI
7. Pani Bożena ŁOJEK Prezes Polskiej Fundacji Katyńskiej
8. Pan Stefan MELAK Prezes Komitetu Katyńskiego
9. Pan Stanisław MIKKE Wiceprzewodniczący ROPWiM
10. Pani Bronisława ORAWIEC - LOFFLER
11. Pani Katarzyna PISKORSKA
12. Pan Andrzej SARIUSZ – SKĄPSKI Prezes Federacji Rodzin Katyńskich
13. Pan Wojciech SEWERYN
14. Pan Leszek SOLSKI
15. Pani Teresa WALEWSKA – PRZYJAŁKOWSKA Fundacja „Golgota Wschodu”
16. Pani Gabriela ZYCH
17. Pani Ewa BĄKOWSKA wnuczka Gen. bryg. Mieczysława Smorawińskiego
18. Pani Maria BOROWSKA
19. Pan Bartosz BOROWSKI
20. Pan Dariusz MALINOWSKI

REPRESENTATIVES OF THE ARMED FORCES RP

1. Gen. broni Bronisław KWIATKOWSKI - Operational Commander of the Polish Armed Forces
2. Gen. broni pil. Andrzej BŁASIK - Polish Air Force Commander
3. Gen. dyw. Tadeusz BUK - Commander of Land Forces of Poland
4. Gen. dyw. Włodzimierz POTASIŃSKI - Polish Special Forces Commander
5. Vice-admiral - Andrzej KARWETA - Commander of the Navy
6. Gen. bryg. Kazimierz GILARSKI - Commander of the Training Centre

The last part is especially shocking considering the place where it happened.
So many commanders of the Armed Forces died.

I wonder how was it possible that they all took part in the celebrations travelling in one airplane. No doubt the importance of the celebrations in Katyń played very large part, probably political pressure too. But time to speculate will come later.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

132 people, all told. http://news.uk.msn.com/world/articles.aspx?cp-documentid=152975011&ocid=today

Is it too soon for me to say I'm suspicious, given that the administration was pro-EU?

[cegorach]

132 people, all told. http://news.uk.msn.com/world/articles.aspx?cp-documentid=152975011&ocid=today

Is it too soon for me to say I'm suspicious, given that the administration was pro-EU?

Virtually all parties in Poland are pro-EU so I am not sure what you mean.

[Furunculus]

the G/F half jokingly suggested it was a plot by the russians, seeing the list of dead I now half believe her!

conspiracy theories can be fun as well as crazy.

[Fixiwee]

Since I am actually Polish this bit of news caught my eye. I always condemned this man and his christian fundamentalistic political party but no one deserves to die like that. My condolences.

[Husar]

Yes, it is somewhat ironic that a lot of polish "officers" died in a plane crash in Russia on their way to a memorial for a lot of polish officers killed by Russians.

Sorry about the loss though.

[cegorach]

the G/F half jokingly suggested it was a plot by the russians, seeing the list of dead I now half believe her!

conspiracy theories can be fun as well as crazy.

If anything it would be very clumsy. The main thing is that most of politicians were from the opposition while militarymen were immediatelly replaced according to the rules of succession.

There are already comspiracy theories from right-wing nutcases who preach it was 'a coup' orchestarated by the ruling Civic Platform.

The tragedy visrtually annihilated the leadership of the Law na Justice, weakened Democratic Left Alliance and removed several people from important positions who were nominated between 2005 and 2007 giving Civc Platform almost total political power in the country.

See ? - here is much more 'realistic' conspiracy theory.

[Jolt]

Though I also disagreed with the man's policies, it is such a great tragedy. It is quite sad that even the last acting president of the Polish First Republic in exile was killed in the accident. :(

[Prince Cobra]

I am shocked. Really. My condolences!

[Seamus Fermanagh]

My prayers for them and for their families. What a blow to the Polish government....

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Though this is not the best place to say this but after I heard this news I began to wonder what if US president would've crashed? Or Chinese, Russian etc?

[cegorach]

The final number of deaths is 96 - 88 passengers and 8 crewmen.

A week of national mourning was announced by the acting president Bronisław Komorowski.

New presidential elections will be announed after that.
Several MPs will have to be chosen as well, same with several officials.


There are some legal questions because of the unprecedented size of the disaster, but nothing serious.

[Furunculus]

If anything it would be very clumsy. The main thing is that most of politicians were from the opposition while militarymen were immediatelly replaced according to the rules of succession.

There are already comspiracy theories from right-wing nutcases who preach it was 'a coup' orchestarated by the ruling Civic Platform.

The tragedy visrtually annihilated the leadership of the Law na Justice, weakened Democratic Left Alliance and removed several people from important positions who were nominated between 2005 and 2007 giving Civc Platform almost total political power in the country.

See ? - here is much more 'realistic' conspiracy theory.

the better half is not very political, merely laughing at the reflexive polish attitude to blame the russians (or the germans). :)

[Centurion1]

this is terrible, both politically and just sad.

ill wait to discuss legal ramifications of course.

so very sad.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Good grief. What a tragedy.


Shame this shoud've happened on a plane 'back from Katyń'. What a cruel turn of events, very sad.

A catastrophe for Poland. I'm speechless...

:poland:

[rory_20_uk]

So many important people, why on a 25 year old Russian flying coffin?

~:smoking:

[Furunculus]

there's a lesson for everyone........

[cegorach]

So many important people, why on a 25 year old Russian flying coffin?

~:smoking:

Because the public would complan that 'they are spending our taxes on needless luxuries'. No politician likes that these days and it costs something to buy such a large airplane purchasing which in times of economic crisis (as we know far less ssevere in Poland) will never be popular.


Actually the type of the airplane or its age has little to do with the reasons of the accident. Pilot's error most likely combined with thick fog and less than modern shape of the airfield and here it goes.

It was the fourth attempt to land which is extraordinary and unprecedented. According to regulations it should never happen, but ultimately it is pilot's decision and his resposibility.
I have my speculations given desperate political situation of the presidential camp in Poland as well as some earlier incidents, but that can and will wait.

[rory_20_uk]

Agreed that the plane itself might not have been the most likely cause, but I'm still surprised that they'd risk so many important dignitaries in the same plane. Staggering it slightly would only be a minor inconvenience.

~:smoking:

[cegorach]

President Medvedev announced the fact that Russia will join Poland in national mourning on 12th April.

Only a year ago very few would have thought it could happen.

Nice reversal.

At least one good news from the tragedy and another proof how easy it was to improve relations between both countries - basically in one move made by PM Putin in Katyn on Wednesday and by Kremlin during earlier days (screening of Andrzej's Wajda 'Katyń' in Russian public TV).

So little, but I thought I will never live to this day.

[Louis VI the Fat]

President Medvedev announced the fact that Russia will join Poland in national mourning on 12th April.

Only a year ago very few would have thought it could happen.

Nice reversal.

At least one good news from the tragedy and another proof how easy it was to improve relations between both countries - basically in one move made by PM Putin in Katyn on Wednesday and by Kremlin during earlier days (screening of Andrzej's Wajda 'Katyń' in Russian public TV).

So little, but I thought I will never live to this day.A few gestures, a willingness to face truths, an acceptance of mistakes, they go such a long way towards reconcilliation.

[gaelic cowboy]

Sorry goes a long way but it's often the hardest word to say

[Megas Methuselah]

Wow, cegorach's list was... shocking to read. My condolences.

[cegorach]

A few gestures, a willingness to face truths, an acceptance of mistakes, they go such a long way towards reconcilliation.

So true.

Only a year ago it was: 'Poland started the II WW', 'Poland planned to invade the SU with germany and Japan', 'Poland murdered 60 thousand Soviet POWs in 1920' etc.

And on 9th May 2010 Polish soldiers are invited to march just after the Russian ones while Polish president (now perhaps the PM) with a number of veterans (also from the Home Army - formerly called in Russia 'cutthroats, murderers and crypto-nazis') will seat in honoured place.

Even Lukashenko of Belorus observing how the wind blows awarded Andrzej Wajda a day or two ago...

Amazing.

Frankly I am delighted with this fact.

Normal rivalry wil be continued, just like between neighbours even if they are linguistic cousins, but that is just so plainly, simply, boringrily... normal.


I wonder if recent moves (also excellent Putin's speech in Katyn) will result in something deeper in Russia itself.

Second and final phase of de-stalinisation? What do you think?

[Louis VI the Fat]

I wonder if recent moves (also excellent Putin's speech in Katyn) will result in something deeper in Russia itself.

Second and final phase of de-stalinisation? What do you think?I'm not holding my breath. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/13/russia-shuts-history-website)

I'm pleased with the normalisation in Russian-Polish relations. Other than that:


On 19 June the home affairs ministry in St Petersburg shut down the site www.hrono.info. The website had been Russia's largest online history (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/history) resource, widely used by scholars in Russia and elsewhere as a unique source of biographical and historical material. Officials said they closed the site because it published extracts from Hitler's autobiography, Mein Kampf. Today, however, its founder, Vyacheslav Rumyantsev, said the closure had nothing to do with Hitler, adding that the text was widely available elsewhere and was only summarised on the site.


Rumyantsev said the authorities may have pulled the plug after an article was posted on 16 June criticising St Petersburg's pro-Kremlin governor, Valentina Matviyenko. The article attacked Matviyenko's decision to cut an allowance given to survivors of the Nazi siege of Leningrad.


The closure comes amid official attempts in Russia to rewrite some of the darkest aspects of its 20th-century history. School textbooks now portray Stalin not as a mass murderer but as a great, if flawed, national leader and an "efficient manager" who defeated the Nazis and industrialised a backward Soviet Union.


In December, police in St Petersburg raided the human rights organisation Memorial, removing much of the material used by Figes in The Whisperers, his acclaimed book on family life under Stalin. It included interviews with gulag victims, photos and personal testimonies. Figes's Russian publisher later scrapped plans to publish the book in Russian.Today Figes said in an email the Kremlin had become "very active on the internet (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/internet)" on history, claiming that it even hired bloggers to pose as members of the public, their task being to disseminate a Kremlin-approved version of the past and to "rubbish historians like myself". Chandler – the translator of Life and Fate, Vasily Grossman's epic novel set during the battle for Stalingrad – said he was alarmed at the decision to shut the website. "It was Orwell who said in Nineteen Eighty-Four that whoever controls the past controls the future."


On Russia's recent attempts to rewrite the second world war (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/secondworldwar) and stress the achievements of Stalinism, rather than political repression, he said: "I think it's bad history. I think it would have appalled Grossman more than anyone."
Much of Soviet history is now taboo. Particularly sensitive for the Kremlin is the 1939 Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, under which Hitler and Stalin agreed to carve up Europe, with Moscow annexing the Baltics and two-thirds of Poland (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/poland). The Kremlin also refuses to acknowledge Ukrainian claims that the Stalin-engineered famine of 1932-33 amounted to a genocide.


This month Russia's delegation walked out of the Organisation for the Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) after it passed a resolution likening Stalinism with Nazism. The resolution called for 23 August, the day of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, to be a day of remembrance for victims of both Stalin and Hitler. Russia accused the OSCE of trying to "distort history with political goals". "This does not contribute to creating an atmosphere of trust and cooperation between member states of this body," said a foreign ministry spokesman, Andrei Nesterenko.


In May Russia's president, Dmitry Medvedev (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/dmitry-medvedev), announced he was setting up a new body to counter the "falsification of history". The commission, dominated by members of Russia's FSB intelligence service rather than professional historians, would ensure that history teaching stressed Russia's heroic sacrifice during the war, Medvedev said, and combat foreign "revisionists". This month Russia's defence ministry posted a lengthy article on its website claiming that Poland provoked the second world war. The article said Poland refused to yield to Germany's "modest" ultimatum demands in 1939 for a land corridor to East Prussia and Gdansk. The ministry withdrew it after Poland protested to Russia's ambassador in Warsaw.

[cegorach]

I'm not holding my breath. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/13/russia-shuts-history-website)

I'm pleased with the normalisation in Russian-Polish relations. Other than that:


Yes, that is pretty much my point - it was just a year ago. Only in August 2009 Russian officials accused Poland of planning to invade the SU with germany and Japan in 1930s. It was seen as (almost) all times low of the relations.

Many comments see that Putin's speech was directed to Russians and it condemned stalinism and it was shown in Russian public TV (I've seen it myself - I am not too easy to convince).
Perhaps it is the time to bury Lenin after all, someone thought in Kremlin.


There is still a lot of to do and it change quite rapidly and completely, but I am carefully optimistic. First time in almost a decade.

[PanzerJaeger]

I'm not surprised that a Tupolev fell apart so thoroughly.

This is not against the rules, but it is a bit untimely and inflamatory. SF

[Jolt]

I'm not surprised that a Tupolev fell apart so thoroughly.

The plane was well-built, and all accounts say it was not a mechanical flaw or error. The same would have happened to a Messerschmit or a Boeing.

[Beskar]

the G/F half jokingly suggested it was a plot by the russians, seeing the list of dead I now half believe her!

conspiracy theories can be fun as well as crazy.

Me and your girlfriend must have much in common, I thought the same thing half-jokingly when I saw the title.

[Furunculus]

are you polish? :inquisitive:










:clown:

[Kagemusha]

My condolences.

[PanzerJaeger]

The plane was well-built, and all accounts say it was not a mechanical flaw or error. The same would have happened to a Messerschmit or a Boeing.

I wouldn't fly in that Soviet piece of crap. Let's just say production standards at the factory were "hit or miss" throughout the years, as with most soviet industry.

[Cute Wolf]

my condolence, especially with a nation whose flag is a vertical flip of my flag..... a big tragedy... hope nothing worse happened afterwards in Poland...

[Meneldil]

Deleted by moderator. Nothing particularly viscious was said in criticism of the deceased, but our custom is to reserve ANY such for after the formal memorials are concluded. Meneldil, you should feel free to post this point again at that time. -SF

[cegorach]

Removed by moderator as untimely.

Deleted by moderator -- there will be time enough for thrust and riposte later.

It is about 96 people, more than a half highly respected Meneldil. Greatly respected..

[Jolt]

I wouldn't fly in that Soviet piece of crap. Let's just say production standards at the factory were "hit or miss" throughout the years, as with most soviet industry.

Apparently that plane was part of the "hit" percentage, as were most of the planes made there. And in case you don't know, there's a thing called "maintenance" where flaws are spotted. What happened to the plane would have happened to any plane that hit the ground nose first. deleted by moderator as inflammatory

[Vuk]

Nice move Putin!

[Husar]

I wouldn't fly in that Soviet piece of crap. Let's just say production standards at the factory were "hit or miss" throughout the years, as with most soviet industry.
Yes, that is why the USA spent billions trying to prepare for the eventuality of a bunch of Tupolevs coming over for a nuclear visit. And why the plane got 20 years old in the first place. I'm sure Boeings fly through forests getting only a few scratches all the time. :rolleyes:

Removed by moderator in earlier posts, and here as well.

Last but not least, it is .org policy not to rate/berate dead people until they have been buried, I don't think it hurts to respect that.


Nice move Putin!

Yes, he made the trees grow really fast on the fourth approach, his powers are unbelievable. :rolleyes:

[Gregoshi]

Yes, he made the trees grow really fast on the fourth approach, his powers are unbelievable. :rolleyes:
Done by a secret branch of the government, no doubt. :inquisitive: However, now is not the time to ponder about Russian forestry and such.

Condolences to Poland and the family and friends of the victims. :shame:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

This thread is, effectively, a death notification. Our long established policy is to keep things largely non-critical until the formal memoria have been concluded. I will trust you all to adhere to this. Any critiques may wait their turn. If this is disregarded, I will be forced to close the thread. Thanks for respecting this policy.

[deguerra]

I hope I am not being too critical by saying I didn't love Mr Kaczyński, but nobody should die like this. I'm saddened by the loss of so many great Poles. My condolences.

[cegorach]

Russian public TV (Rossiya - Russia) announced another screening of Andrzej Wajda's 'Katyń'. Another step in the right direction.

12th April will be a day of mourning in the EU and Russian Federation.

Lithuania declared three day's long national mourning starting on Monday.

Brasil declared thre days of national mourning. (rather suprising gesture)

Georgia declared the deceased president their national hero.


Whatever is said about this person he did much to improve (already very good) relations with that caucasian country and I personally respect him for that.
Supporting that country is one of oldest efforts in foreign policy of Poland, starting in 1918.






Another conclusion from this tragedy is how strong mature, well working democracy can be.

It is pretty much 'carry on, everything is in order' which in a case of a dictatorship would be a disaster.

[Hosakawa Tito]

That place has a lot of bad juju, people must believe it to be damned.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Katyn Forrest was a bit of nastiness indeed. Stalin's crimes still haunt the Russian people -- and many other peoples as well.

[Furunculus]

comment from someone who knew some of the deceased:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamescorum/100033804/the-polish-tragedy-is-a-terrible-loss-for-the-west-too/

[cegorach]

Apparently rather badly.

When it comes to saying something positive about the deceased president I think I could find some points.

For example this one

http://www.rce.eu.com/articlePage.asp?pageID=396&pageTable=2&lang=english

Involvement in the east (Georgia, Ukraine, Lithuania) as also something I'd find positive. Plus a couple of other actions and ideas he represented.
I don't like when people are inventing something nice to say.


Anyway. Ukraine declared Monday the day of national mourning this way joining the EU, Russia and Brasil.

I am still puzzled about the last one, even though president Lula mentioned it was due to recognisable contribution of Polish emigrants in the XIXth and XXth century.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Yes, that is pretty much my point - it was just a year ago. Only in August 2009 Russian officials accused Poland of planning to invade the SU with germany and Japan in 1930s. It was seen as (almost) all times low of the relations.

Many comments see that Putin's speech was directed to Russians and it condemned stalinism and it was shown in Russian public TV (I've seen it myself - I am not too easy to convince).
Perhaps it is the time to bury Lenin after all, someone thought in Kremlin.


There is still a lot of to do and it change quite rapidly and completely, but I am carefully optimistic. First time in almost a decade.Now that Russia no lonmger blames Poland for starting WWII, does that mean Poland will stop blaming WWII on the UK and France? :balloon2:


But...Quite. Nevertheless, this all is still a catatrophe for Poland. There's Poland the Christian fundametalist, nationalist, backward looking country trying to undo two centuries of history, so stuck in victim narratives that it fails to see the extent to which it makes itself impossible to friends and foes alike. And there is modern, forward-looking Poland, a rapidly developing economic powerhouse, the sixth power of Europe, fully part of the EU and NATO.
I would be a bit dismayed if the sudden matrydom of Kaczynski means he gets credited for the latter after all.

[cegorach]

Now that Russia no lonmger blames Poland for starting WWII, does that mean Poland will stop blaming WWII on the UK and France? :balloon2:

off topic

Mr. Miliband apologised when he visited Poland recently for a part of, let's call it 'inactivity' in 1939 and Polish veterans were allowed to march during victory parade in London, in 2005 - Stalin lived to 1953 so it was relatively quickly - only 52 years. Documents of British intelligence were partially declassified giving full respect to the Polish intelligence network in Europe, Africa and Americas.
That is three important steps towards forgiveness. From Britain or course.





There's Poland the Christian fundametalist, nationalist, backward looking country trying to undo two centuries of history, so stuck in victim narratives that it fails to see the extent to which it makes itself impossible to friends and foes alike. And there is modern, forward-looking Poland, a rapidly developing economic powerhouse, the sixth power of Europe, fully part of the EU and NATO.

It is a bit more complicated, but in general quite accurate.





I would be a bit dismayed if the sudden matrydom of Kaczynski means he gets credited for the latter after all.

More or less what I think.



Edward Lucas wote long and fascinating piece dealing with all possible questions anybody could have - link -

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=15891381&source=features_box_main

It is published in the Times in shorter version.

[rory_20_uk]

What activity, exactly, was Poland expecting? A Naval power to land an army it didn't have and fight off both the Ruskies and the Krauts? :inquisitive:

~:smoking:

[cegorach]

Latvia and Estonia declared a day of national mourning.

Apparently deceased general Franciszek Gągor was a key candidate for the new military commander of the NATO. Don't know how serious it was.

Chief rabbi of Poland Michael Schudrich mentioned that he didn't fly to Katyn (he was there on Wednesday) because of the timing (Saturday).


@Rory

Forgive me but I am not going to discuss it here and if you ask this question you are not ready to participate in such discussion.No offence - but it is a complicated subject which requires considerable knowledge to even start a discussion.

[Furunculus]

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=15891381&source=features_box_main

It is published in the Times in shorter version.
good article, cheers.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

My condolences,especially since I am 50% Polish (25% Croatian and Slovak also). Though, how ironic it goes down...... in Russia.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Forgive me but I am not going to discuss it here and if you ask this question you are not ready to participate in such discussion. No offence - but it is a complicated subject which requires considerable knowledge to even start a discussion.A controversial subject, fighting words, tensions running high already...

Perfect for the Monastery!

[Husar]

A controversial subject, fighting words, tensions running high already...

Perfect for the Monastery!

Trying to lure people into your realm of power? :laugh4:

[cegorach]

A controversial subject, fighting words, tensions running high already...

Perfect for the Monastery!

Ehhh perhaps it is, but currently I am engaged in several researches in my spare, spare time i.e. the free time from my free time reserved for other people - very demanding ones, but I don't complain. ;)

Namely:
- Ukrainian national army, its commanders, structures and mobilization in Polish defensive plans against Soviet Union - 90% done,
- Lithuanian army between 1936 and 1940, their commanders and military industry - 60% done,
- night fighting tactics and equipement during the II WW - 5% done
and purely for fun - Tukhachevskiy's plan to invade Poland in 1931. Very entertaining - proposal to immediatelly produce 40 000 airplanes and 50 000 tanks supporting 10 000 000 men... boy, the person really had imagination - I wonder where would he deploy those soldiers and how much time would pass before they started eating each other or die from diseases...

When I am ready with any of those three we can begin. It is interesting subject and since it is also far from well researched it could result in a good argument.

[Skullheadhq]

he article said Poland refused to yield to Germany's "modest" ultimatum demands in 1939 for a land corridor to East Prussia and Gdansk.

What would've happened when Poland would have submitted to this 'modest' ultimatum? Wouldn't Hitler claim Alsace-Lorraine after Danzig and wouldn't that have leaded to the second world war anyway? Russian Defense Ministry should get some education on German history...

Oh look, some Germans are still claiming Danzig and the lost provinces:

Germans held lands and properties in what is now Poland for hundreds of years. They have a deep, inner connection to the region and many want their properties back. Soon we will all be Europeans. Poland's accession to the EU will enable us to take our case to the Strasbourg court for the first time. Poland must not be allowed to discriminate against Germans."
-Rudi Pawelka, chairman of the 'Prussian Trust'

Some interesting details as well:

(2) Mrs. D.
8. On 4 March 1945 the applicant’s mother, grandmother and her sister, in view of the Red Army’s approach, had to flee Massow (at present Maszewo), then in the district of Kaugard (at present Nowogard) in Pomerania, and were first directed to Hagenow in Mecklenburg. Forced to leave in a hurry, they had managed to save very little, and had left even vital items (e.g. documents) behind, assuming they would soon be able to go home.
The applicant herself had been recruited to the labour corps, and at that time had worked in Bavaria. The applicant and her family have still not been allowed to return to their home, and restitution has been refused.
(3) Mr. L.
9. In January 1945, having learned of the Allies’ decision to divide Germany into occupation zones, the applicant’s family left their farm in Dammfelde (at present Dabrówka Mala), owned by the applicant’s father, H. L., before the advancing Red Army arrived. They reached the British occupation zone. The applicant submits that he has still not been allowed to return to his home and has been refused restitution of his property.
(4) Mr. B.
10. M.B., the applicant’s mother, was driven from her family farm in Rohnstock (at present Roztoka) and died, while fleeing, on 12 or 16 April 1945. The applicant, as his mother’s heir, has still not been allowed to return to the family’s home and has been refused restitution of his property.
(5) Mrs. B.
11. At the end of January 1945 the applicant, her brothers and sisters, together with an aunt and her family, left their place of residence, Wisenthal-Röhrsdorf (at present Osowa Sien), in the district of Fraustadt (at present the Wschów District) in Lower Silesia to escape the advancing Red Army. They and the other Germans had an hour to join a convoy of horse-drawn vehicles in the neighbouring village of Röhrsdorf. The applicant’s grandfather, E.G., after the applicant and her family had been forced to leave, was shot or beaten to death by Soviet troops on his own farm, and the farm buildings were burned. The house, however, survived.
After spending a long time on the road and enduring severe hardship, the applicant and her family reached Saxony. They have still not been allowed to return to their home and have been refused restitution.
(6) Mr. S.
12. In late January or early February 1945, the applicant and his family were forced to leave their farm in Ziegellscheune (at present Wszewniki). Each person was allowed to take only one suitcase. From the railway station at Militsch (at present Milicz), they were taken west in cattle wagons, experiencing the bombing of Dresden on the way. The applicant and his family eventually reached Altenroda (Thuringia). In June 1957 he left the former German Democratic Republic and moved to the Federal Republic of Germany. He has still not been allowed to return to his property and has been refused restitution.
(7) Mr. D.
13. On 4 March 1945, the applicant’s parents and their children were forced to leave their house in Massow (at present Maszewo) since the Red Army was some 20 kilometres away and their evacuation was ordered. Nonetheless, they later returned to Massow, where, in his words, looting, rape, etc. were daily occurrences.
In September-October 1945, the first Poles arrived, taking over homes and farms. At the end of October 1945, the family’s farm was confiscated by the Polish militia. The applicant’s father was later arrested by Poles, and taken without reason to the police station at Stettin (at present Szczecin), where he suffered ill-treatment for six weeks. He was then brought before a judge and released. The applicant himself, whose arrest had also been planned, was forced to work for nothing on the farm without any help. Early in 1946, the Poles began to deport the Germans from Stolzenhagen (at present Stolczyn). Since the family’s residence permits were due to expire on 31 May 1946, they first went to Odermünde and then to Pölitz, finally reaching the British occupation zone in July 1946. They have still not been allowed to return to their property and have been refused restitution. The family also left behind property in Stettin-Stolzenberg (at present Szczecin-Stolczyn).
(8) Mr. J.
14. In January 1945, the applicant’s grandparents were expelled from Zoppot (at present Sopot). They went overland westwards.
The applicant has still not been allowed to return to his family home and restitution has been refused.
(9) Mrs. H.
15. In 1946 the applicant’s mother and her family were expelled from their farm in Ober Ohlisch (at present Olszówka Górna) by the Polish militia. They were not allowed to take anything with them. The applicant and her mother went first to Polish neighbours, who gave them a room. The applicant’s mother had previously been denounced and falsely accused of stealing a horse’s harness from a Pole. For three weeks, she was required to report daily to the militia, where she spent the day cleaning toilets and other rooms in the barracks, and looking on while other Germans were questioned and beaten. The applicant and her mother then went back to their home, which had been given to another Pole in the meantime. They were given the room in which the grandmother was still living, but were not allowed to use the toilet or water, and stones were thrown through their window. They also had to pay rent. Having found other quarters, they finally left in 1956.
They remained in Poland until 24 June 1989, and then travelled on a visitor’s visa to the Federal Republic of Germany where they decided to stay and where they still live.
The applicant submits that they have repeatedly applied to the Polish authorities for restitution of their property, but have been refused on the ground that, as Germans, they have not been rehabilitated. The applicant has not submitted any documents or other evidence showing that she submitted her claims to any Polish administrative, judicial or other authority.
(10) Mr. D.
16. In May 1946, the applicant’s father and his family were visited by Polish militiamen in their house in Bad Charlottenbrunn (at present Jedlina Zdrój) and told that they were to be deported at once. They were given about an hour to pack essentials, and each was allowed to take only 20 kilos of luggage. They marched five kilometres to the station and were loaded onto open goods wagons. As the journey went on, many people were robbed of their last belongings. There were repeated body-searches, and Germans were ordered by loudspeaker to hand over valuables, e.g. savings books, etc., and threatened with severe punishment if they failed to comply. The applicant’s father and his family eventually succeeded in reaching the Western occupation zone. The applicant has still not been allowed to return to his family home and has been refused restitution.
(11) Mr. K.
17. On 20 January 1945, following an order for Germans to leave Stolezyn and report in Schwarzacker, the applicant and other members of his family fled their home. They stopped in Czarnikau (at present Czarnków), where all the roads were blocked, and they could proceed no further. Red Army soldiers suddenly turned up and were on the point of shooting the applicant – even old people and children had been killed simply because they were German – but a Pole stepped in to protect him. All their belongings were taken, but the family escaped alive.
On 23 January 1945 the Soviets ordered the family to return to their home, which they reached on 25 January 1945. The house had been looted. In February 1945, Polish militiamen expelled them again, and they were taken to an internment camp at Elsenau (at present Damaslawek), where the last of their belongings were taken, and where they were seriously maltreated. Eventually, they were forced to leave their homeland. They have still not been allowed to return to their home and have been refused restitution.
(12) Mr. W.
18. The applicant’s grandmother, P. N. wished to stay on the family farm in Ridbach (at present Rzeck), but the applicant, his mother and sister had left by ship in 1945 before the Red Army arrived. The grandmother was shot on the farm shortly afterwards by Red Army soldiers.
Since the end of the War both the applicant and other members of his family have not been allowed to return to their home and have been refused restitution.
(13) Mr. L.
19. In August 1946 the applicant’s father and his family were driven at gunpoint from their house and market garden in Bad Charlottenbrunn (at present Jedlina-Zdrój) in Lower Silesia. Polish militiamen told them they had to be in the street and ready to leave within an hour. They marched with others under police escort to the railway station, some five kilometres away, and various pieces of their luggage were stolen on the way. They were taken in goods wagons to the district town, Waldenburg (at present Walbrzych), where they were again searched and lost more of their belongings. They were taken towards the Oder/Neisse crossing and from there to the Soviet occupation zone. The applicant has still not been allowed to return to his home and restitution has been refused.
(14) Mr. N.
20. The applicant submits that his parents’ names had been entered in the Beuthen (at present Bytom in Poland) property register as half-share owners of two houses. They lived in, and did not flee, their home in Königsberg (at present Kaliningrad, in Russia) when the War ended. The applicant has never been able to find out what happened to his mother when the Red Army entered Königsberg. She was probably sentenced to forced labour and died in 1947. The applicant has still not been allowed to return to his property and restitution has been refused.
(15) Mrs. S.
21. In February 1945 the applicant’s grandparents still lived on their farm in Ober-Görrisseiffen (at present Plóczki Górne), in an area already occupied by Soviet troops. One evening, anti-aircraft batteries opened up in the area and the grandparents were ordered to start moving east. They packed essentials, and secretly headed west, in the hope of joining other members of the family, following the German army as it retreated. When the War ended on 8 May 1945, they returned to Löwenberg (at present Lwówek Slaski), where their house was the only one not yet looted. At the end of June 1945, given the time to pack only the barest of essentials, they were taken away. Those who wanted to stay were arrested or immediately shot. After stopping in various places on the way, they eventually reached the West, getting as far as the Rhineland.
The applicant has still not been allowed to return to her lost homeland and has been refused restitution.
(16) Mr. Z.
22. On 3 March 1945 the applicant and his parents fled their property in Pomerania with other landowners to escape the approaching Red Army. They reached Testorf in Holstein on 23 March 1945. The applicant has still not been allowed to return to his home and has been refused restitution.
(17) Mr. W.
23. Until the end of the War, the applicant’s mother lived on her farm in Schönhorst (at present Gniazdowo) in the region of the former Free City of Danzig. On 24 January 1945 she was ordered to leave. She fled with carts, heading west, eventually reaching Sittensen, in the Bremervörde district, in March 1945. The applicant has still not been allowed to return to her family home and restitution has been refused.
(18) Mrs. K.
24. The applicant and her family were forced to leave their home in Treuburg (at present Olecko) to escape the advancing Red Army in January 1945. They fled, eventually reaching Berlin. They headed further west, and were overtaken by Soviet troops in Mecklenburg. They have still not been allowed to return to their home and have been refused restitution.
(19) Mrs. S.
25. On 9 July 1947, the applicant’s father and his family were forced to leave their 27.14 hectare farm in Lokau (at present Tlokowo). The applicant has still not been allowed to return to her home area, and has been refused restitution.
(20) Mr. L.
26. The applicant submits that his family were among those Germans who had not been deported by the Soviets but expelled by the Poles from areas east of the Oder on 27 June 1945. They were allowed to take only bare essentials with them. The applicant’s uncle (later declared dead on 31 December 1945) was not in Stolzenfelde (at present Stoleczna) at the time, and his wife had died there on 20 February 1945. They did not experience the expulsion – unlike the applicant and his surviving relatives, who have so far been refused rehabilitation and restitution.
(21) Mr. K.
27. The applicant’s great-aunt and her family survived the heavy air raid on Swinemünde (at present Swinoujscie), which took place on 12 March 1945, and were also left unharmed when the Red Army arrived on 5 May 1945. On 6 October1945 Poland took over Swinemünde and Polish civilians started to attack and rob Germans. In April 1946 the Polish militia ordered the applicant and his mother to leave, taking only the barest personal essentials with them. The applicant’s great-aunt and grandmother were at first unwilling to leave, but the threat of violence left them no choice and they eventually reached Stralsund in summer 1947. The applicant and his mother had already fled to Stralsund in April 1946.
All members of his family have consistently been refused rehabilitation and restitution.
(22) Mrs. H.
28. On 22 October 1944 the applicant and her parents fled their home village Moschenen (at present Mozne) in the Treuburg District (at present the Olecko District). They reached the Sensburg (at present Mragowo) District in East Prussia, but could get no further, since all the roads were blocked by refugees. They decided to return to the lodging they had found in the Sensburg district, where they saw German civilians murdered when the Red Army arrived. One of the victims was the applicant’s father, who was shot in early February 1945.
In June 1945, the applicant and her mother set off for their home village of Moschenen, to see if their farm was still there, but the Poles who were already in possession of it immediately reported their arrival to the Soviet authorities in Treuburg. Threatened with shooting and unable to reclaim their farm, their only choice was again to flee.
The family have been refused rehabilitation and restitution.
(23) Mr. H.
29. On 29 January 1945 the applicant and his parents fled their home in Heilsberg (at present Lidzbark Warminski), escaping the advancing Red Army, first to Heiligenbeil (at present Mamanowo) and then, at the beginning of February 1945, to Danzig. When the Red Army entered on 27 or 28 March 1945, all refugees were ordered back to their homes At the end of May 1945, the family set out on foot, with a handcart, for their home in Heilsberg. The parents’ houses were still occupied by Soviet troops and the refugees were lodged by relatives. At the end of July 1945, they were expelled from Poland, and taken by goods train via Bischoffsstein (at present Bisztynek) to Berlin, losing various belongings to thieves on the way. They eventually arrived at Beckum in Westphalia on 1 February1946.
The applicant, like his deceased relatives, has been refused rehabilitation and restitution.

From: http://potsdamer-konferenz.de/voelkerrecht/prussian_trust.php#k2_2

[Beskar]

The closer we become to be Europeans, the closer will we won't be caring about lands in other states of Europe.

[cegorach]

Funeral will have place in Warsaw, on Saturday.


Acting president Bronisław Komorowski made first decisions nominating new cheif of Security Council general Koziej.
Very good choice in my opinion.

Bloomberg commenting about the consequences of the tragedy:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aEHmTbD9_Grs&pos=12


This seems interesting:


Support for Civic Platform party rose to 53 percent from 50 percent, Rzeczpospolita reported on March 11. Support for Kaczynski’s Law & Justice, was unchanged at 27 percent, while the Left Democratic Alliance increased its support to 8 percent from 7 percent, according to a poll of 1,000 adults by researcher GfK Polonia.




Rudi Pawelka, chairman of the 'Prussian Trust'

Meaningless character used to scare voters in eastern Poland who haven't seen a German since 1945.

[Skullheadhq]

The closer we become to be Europeans, the closer will we won't be caring about lands in other states of Europe.

More like "The closer we get to be Europeans, the closer we will get to the status quo of 1871..."

[Furunculus]

The closer we become to be Europeans, the closer will we won't be caring about lands in other states of Europe.

you see, i don't get this attitude, it is born of fear of the past and mistrust of the nation state.

what i really don't get is a brit holding this viewpoint.

1. europe is rapidly becoming a self-absorbed irrelevance, whether it bands together or not, so what does britain have to fear? (i realise this is a different equation for continentals, but we are not).
2. what need have we (british) to mistrust the nation state to provide us with external security, we haven't been 'invaded' since the dutch burned their way up the thames over three centuries ago.

i have no need to become 'more' european, because it offers me nothing more, and i like it (read: love it) just way it is already.

[cegorach]

The funeral of the president and his wife will take place on Sunday, 14.00 centrale european time at Wawel castle.





Serbia declared a day of mourning on Thursday. It might have something to do with the objections the president had against recognison of Kosovo.



Another thing worth reading:



Thank you, Russians!
We the people of Poland, which for the past seventy years have failed to accept the loss of our favorite sons murdered In the Katyn forest, thank the people of the Russian Federation and appeal for reconciliation.

We are touched by the help and solidarity we have received from Russia, and from its average inhabitants, during these tragic days. In the plane crash in Smolensk, near Katyn, we lost not only the head of our country, but once again as we did seventy years ago, we lost many gifted members of the elite circles of an independent Poland.

The crime committed against Polish officers In 1940 divided our nation for generations. Now we stand stunned by the blood of present day heroes sinking into the same soil. Both events are connected in terms of geography and pain, but in as much as the first was the result of Stalinist terror that also touched the Russian people themselves, the second was a horrible accident for which we cannot blame the host country.

Experiencing today’s tragedy we see that we are not alone as was the case seventy years ago. The legal successors to the Soviet Union, the Russian government and the Russian people are with us expressing sympathy and making easily understandable gestures of help. We are particularly moved by these words and actions because they negate the murder committed in history – they manifest a Russia, that we always wished for its citizens.

We are citizens of the Republic of Poland, but we are also the spiritual children of the Polish Pope John Paul II. This heritage obligates us to speak out and not leave these expressions of solidarity unrecognized.

For this reason we appeal to the Russian nation: let the new blood spilled near Katyn join us, let it help us reconcile with each other. Let it be a sign of a new beginning in Polish-Russian relations, relations long strained by mistrust, lies and prejudices. Let the Poles and Russians set an example for the world of how to rise above a terrible loss. We are certain that we share the same conviction; evil will not win, good will triumph over evil!

Thank you from the bottom of our hearts for the goodness we are experiencing from you during these difficult days. We are hopeful that together we can build more goodness in the future – for Poland, for Russia for Europe and the world.



The Foundation for European Studies “Sarmacja” in Kraków
Zdzisław Jurkowski, Father Professor. Jan Szczepaniak, Aleksander Galos, Bartłomiej Sienkiewicz


'Nowa Europa Wschodnia' bimonthly
Małgorzata Nocuń, Andrzej Brzeziecki


'Tygodnik Powszechny' weekly
Ks. Adam Boniecki


'Onet.pl' internet portal
Marek Dziewięcki


Today it will be read in TVN24 - Polish main information channel in Russian and in Polish by actor well known in both countries - Daniel Olbrychski.

[cegorach]

I'm leaving this thread.

National mourning has just ended to me with today's extremely controversial or rather outrageous decision of cardinal Dziwisz made 'on request' of Jarosław Kaczyński.

I'm going to join protesters.

Please feel free to come back and address those issues as well, once the funerals have concluded. SF

[Devastatin Dave]

Is it safe to make Polish jokes again?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Sunday 1600 GMT or so. Though "safe" is relative.....

[cegorach]

Is it safe to make Polish jokes again?

Yaawnnn...

Say what you want, we have freedom of expression which includes freedom of saying :daisy: in public and freedom to receive a punch in the face afterwards. ;)