EBNOM official discussion thread

[Nyz]

Nah... the confirmed one is Pontos...

Let me guess whether Indo-Greek will be included or not.....

~Allakhazam...Allakhazam.....~ (performing magic on the crystal ball)....

[anubis88]

Those are possible factions :) Factions that have been considered... Only 20 were chosen, and quite recently so

[Atraphoenix]

Those are possible factions :) Factions that have been considered... Only 20 were chosen, and quite recently so

I was just joking you know :oops:

[anubis88]

I was just joking you know :oops:

P.S. I think it will be better not to use rebel factions for romani or parthia while we have this list where many a faction could be added instead.



My answer was directed to plutoboyz

[Atraphoenix]

And why would you mention ............

And my answer was directed to plutoboyz

I think I was too busy to finish some job :laugh4:
soon very soon ....

[anubis88]

Thanks for editing that out :sweatdrop:

I feel much better :clown:

Well i can't resist without showing sth...

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Machairophoroi_Pontos.jpg

Who the hell is this guy? :clown:

[Atraphoenix]

Thanks for editing that out :sweatdrop:

I feel much better :clown:

Well i can't resist without showing sth...

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Machairophoroi_Pontos.jpg

Who the hell is this guy? :clown:

Greek sword, roman helmet germanic boots?
Do not say it is a pontic imitation legionaire :laugh4:

[Lionheart]

So do we reveal what are the factions that are ingame?

[Atraphoenix]

So do we reveal what are the factions that are ingame?

Is not it a bit early?

[Lionheart]

The fcation selection? I believe no. In that way people will have a ideia what factions will be ingame.

However they still need to expect the previews and other some candy that times to time we will post. I believe having post here a defenitive faction list will help and the people will be ansious to see what preview we will send out.

[vartan]

I'm going to steal all of your modelers, mappers, script writers and skinners. Just telling you in advance. Peace.

[anubis88]

No, we tell nothing yet! Guys, relax... This mod has plenty to go... And btw Atraphoenix, since you are on the team, you are not allowed to guess. And BTW... your wrong! :laugh2:

And Vartan... Are you thretening us? Couse if you are, i'll make Armenia start with one province, and an army with Tigranes + some pandas...

You have been warned :clown:

[Cute Wolf]

I'm going to steal all of your modelers, mappers, script writers and skinners. Just telling you in advance. Peace.

when they join the EB Multiplayer tournament in October, mod works will be forgotten for a while :clown:

[vartan]

And Vartan... Are you thretening us? Couse if you are, i'll make Armenia start with one province, and an army with Tigranes + some pandas...

You have been warned :clown:
Haha, I'm just ******* with you *****. :laugh4: Sorry, that's how friends talk to each other here in L.A. Anyway, you guys are doing some great work. And no, it wasn't a threat. It was a promise. And an army with Tigran at its head? Damn, I'd be worried if I was any other faction!

when they join the EB Multiplayer tournament in October, mod works will be forgotten for a while :clown:
Haha, well that all depends on how busy people are. August and September aren't really great times for most of our players, they are occupied. I don't know how October will be.

[Nyz]

Thanks for editing that out :sweatdrop:

I feel much better :clown:

Well i can't resist without showing sth...

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Machairophoroi_Pontos.jpg

Who the hell is this guy? :clown:

A Machaira wielding soldier... Machairaphoroi?

Seem like romanized infantry... Pontic one? Have it to be associated with that faction preview soon?

Pontikoi Machairaphoroi?

[anubis88]

Pontikoi Machairaphoroi?

Bingo! Now i'll stop with showing units pre-preview, since it seems it get's guessed in a post or 2 every time :clown: . The next unit i'll post will be the new Arcani of EB NOM... Noone will guess who they are :)

@Vartan
I understood your joke don't worry. And don't think Tigranes will get only pandas... He might get some toxotai as well :laugh:

[Nyz]

Bingo! Now i'll stop with showing units pre-preview, since it seems it get's guessed in a post or 2 every time :clown: . The next unit i'll post will be the new Arcani of EB NOM... Noone will guess who they are :)

Hmm ok, never mind then....

~Allakhazam...Allakhazam.....~ (continouing performing magic on the crystal ball)....

[Cute Wolf]

~Allakhazam...Allakhazam.....~ (continouing performing magic on the crystal ball)....

Simsalabim.... a real preview video appeared!!!
Ohohoho... this is preview for Nusantara Total War :grin: a real preview video!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZIlwwWzkcg
Finn MacCummhail, Cute Wolf, SkullheadHQ..... oh... many of our team are overlap each other... ^^

[plutoboyz]

man... wolf...

you hijacking other thread. have a mercy...

[jirisys]

I'd like to join as the 2D artist (textures, banners, etc)

Just look at my Alara sig, 'nuff said:yes:

:clown:

No, really, I'd like to join, I'm gonna have more time now

Edit: Here's a gift for you... I hope you ""like"" it :wink::clown:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4147/4960952007_951e524cda.jpg (<--- THIS! IS! USERBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR!!!!!!:clown: (unlike the ones you consider to be:clown:))

~Jirisys (Yes, I will have time for N:TW too, CW...:clown:)

[vartan]

I'd like to join as the 2D artist (textures, banners, etc)

Just look at my Alara sig, 'nuff said:yes:

:clown:

No, really, I'd like to join, I'm gonna have more time now

~Jirisys (Yes, I will have time for N:TW too, CW...:clown:)
Yes team, let Jiri in unless you want to remain unaware of what a real sig is and what a real logo is. This guy is the God of the Logo and the Sig.

--
Vartan

P.S. Project Alara is where all your artists are ending up.

[anubis88]

Great... We need all the artists we can get.

I'll PM you jirisys

[jirisys]

Yes team, let Jiri in unless you want to remain unaware of what a real sig is and what a real logo is. This guy is the God of the Logo and the Sig.

--
Vartan

P.S. Project Alara is where all your artists are ending up.


Just look at my Alara sig, 'nuff said:yes:

:clown:

Edit: Here's a gift for you... I hope you ""like"" it :wink::clown:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4147/4960952007_951e524cda.jpg (<--- THIS! IS! USERBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR!!!!!!:clown: (unlike the ones you consider to be:clown:))

~Jirisys ('nuff:clown:)

[anubis88]

A little treat for you guys... The new acquisition of our mod, jirisys has made our new logo... And here it is...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4107/4961888615_2a5dd79d54_z.jpg

What do you think?

[jirisys]

A little treat for you guys... The new acquisition of our mod, jirisys has made our new logo... And here it is...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4107/4961888615_2a5dd79d54_z.jpg

What do you think?

Full Size:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4107/4961888615_2a5dd79d54_b.jpg

~Jirisys (Megales Logotos)

[Reno Melitensis]

I think that this mod is going to rock. Cheers.

[vartan]

I think that this mod is going to rock. Cheers.
Indeed. It is a great time period. I wonder when the 'end date' is supposed to be. Also, the original page needs updating: full-sized logo, new artists, new researchers, etc. And instead of Armenia I would write Hayk' (Armenia) so that not only do you have the native name but you also make sure people realize it is Armenia.

[Ludens]

Please take the banter to the profile pages.

This thread is for developing the mod.

[Rahwana]

Please take the banter to the profile pages.

This thread is for developing the mod.

umm.. Ludens... bantering each other is also a way to brainstorming and developing a mod... check our eblate development forum to be sure :grin:... the late bantering is merely spilled from the inner joke discussion about "what should we do with Jirisys"

[Ludens]

Ah. Well, since this thread is the main advertisement for this mod, you may want to keep it focused.

[gamegeek2]

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Lugii_prjeworsk.jpg

Let's see intifadanyz guess this one...

[anubis88]

Yeah Infadanyz, where is your cristal ball now? huh? :laugh:

[Nyz]

The crystal ball is murky....

[plutoboyz]

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Lugii_prjeworsk.jpg

Let's see intifadanyz guess this one...

Lugiones Noble Cavalry?

[MButcher]

Galatian Heavy Cavalry.

[bobbin]

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Lugii_prjeworsk.jpg

Let's see intifadanyz guess this one...

Err you do realise you kind of give away the unit with the url....unless your being really sneaky that is.

[vartan]

Err you do realise you kind of give away the unit with the url....unless your being really sneaky that is.
Guess the poster doesn't know about HIDDEN URL's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_server).

[Lionheart]

It's true. The next one needs to have other name besides that. If you try no download the card the name appears. So the crystal ball works that way...

[anubis88]

And so ends the mistery of the crystal ball :laugh2:

[Rahwana]

And so ends the mistery of the crystal ball :laugh2:

not entirely... as long as they could peek directly from another's home

[anubis88]

Well if you guys really live this close, they should not be allowed to vote for further pictures... It just takes the fun out for the rest :shame:

[Nyz]

~ sigh ~

~ packing all things and closing the oracle shop ~

[gamegeek2]

Bruninkai (Lugian Heavy Cavalry)

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Lugii_prjeworsk.jpg

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/ebnomprjvrsk.jpg


Born out of the ashes of the Pomeranian culture, the Przeworsk culture was one of two Baltic cultures (the other being the Balto-Slavic Zarubintsy) that flourished during Roman Iron Age With the introduction of Celtic ironworking techniques, metallurgy flourished, with tools and weapons of stone, bone, and hardened wood becoming iron. Horses became increasingly important, with bridles and bits featured in many warrior burials, as well as large swords for the cavalry and perhaps two-handed use. Active trade with Romans to the south became prominent, with amber from the Austjai (Aestii) to the north flowing through Przeworsk lands. Burials were notable richer than those of Germanic groups to the west, likely as a result of this trade.

With mass migration out of Scandinavia following the the Cimbric migration, East Germanic tribes, such as the Geutones (Gotones/Goths; likely related to the Geutōzez, or Geats) emigrated from the Götaland area to Pomerania, displacing the Oksywie culture and forming the Wielbark culture, which slowly expanded southward. Some of these East Germanic groups became absorbed into the Przeworsk culture; these would become the Vandals of later times.

Despite the advances in metallurgy, metal armour was still rare, reserved for the high elite and the best warriors, who won it from Celtic and Roman opponents. With a long lance in one hand and a thureos in the other, these men bravely charge into battle, and slash their opponents to pieces with a long cavalry sword. It was from these men that the East Germanic cavalry tradition of later times would be born.

[Rahwana]

seems after the oracle shop closed, this thread lack love.... well, I should bump it...

[gamegeek2]

No comments on the Przeworsk cavalry?

[vartan]

No comments on the Przeworsk cavalry?
What is a Przeworsk? Sounds Polish.

[Cute Wolf]

What is a Przeworsk? Sounds Polish.

lance vs tanks anyone? :grin:

[CaesarAugustus]

No comments on the Przeworsk cavalry?

I like it. :)

Any new units planned for the SPQR (not Sertoriani)?

[anubis88]

Any new units planned for the SPQR (not Sertoriani)?

Well this mod is going until 180 AD, and if memory serves me right, there was 1 faction that was kind of important during this time... And the name is SPQR... I think you can answer that question you asked by yourself :clown:

[Cute Wolf]

Lupus Decorus Catafractii, the dreaded late Cataphracts...
Really want to see it?
http://eblate.forumotion.com/users/2713/11/11/64/avatars/4-58.jpg

can you see it?

[CaesarAugustus]

Well this mod is going until 180 AD, and if memory serves me right, there was 1 faction that was kind of important during this time... And the name is SPQR... I think you can answer that question you asked by yourself :clown:

Perhaps you will make first cohorts recruitable outside Latium? At least for the human player? I never really understood why their recruitment was so restricted in EB1. Same with the evocati... there were veteran colonies outside of Italy, in the Imperial period at least, were there not? Just some thoughts/requests to make recruting accurate legions easier.

[anubis88]

We will take your thoughts into account... Truth be told, while some work has been done on the Romans, they will probably be the last to be completed, since they will need by far the most work... And we have some surprises planned for the Romans... It will make the game enjoyable till the end in 180 AD playing as them.

[LusitanianWolf]

Well... I gess my username says how much I'll enjoy this mod and the Sertoriani ^^
Nice previews btw! Waiting for more (specialy other iberians, germans and celts, barbaroi power ftw) =D!
Excelent job and good luck!


PS: And I vote NO to LS! After 4 or 5 years of playing EB it looks hugly to me compared to hamata (or scamata btw). Or at least different packs with or without it.

[CaesarAugustus]

PS: And I vote NO to LS! After 4 or 5 years of playing EB it looks hugly to me compared to hamata (or scamata btw). Or at least different packs with or without it.

Though I dont wish to start another ugly LS debate, perhaps after a reform certain units could be made available in a hamata-wearing version and one wearing segmentata, with the LS-version having a higher upkeep cost (and slightly higher armour rating..?) to represent the increased expense of maintaining LS. That way it would be left to the player's discretion, as well as represent the accepted idea that LS was never really widespread. Of course, it would mean that you have one or two less unit slots to work with.

[vartan]

Though I dont wish to start another ugly LS debate, perhaps after a reform certain units could be made available in a hamata-wearing version and one wearing segmentata, with the LS-version having a higher upkeep cost (and slightly higher armour rating..?) to represent the increased expense of maintaining LS. That way it would be left to the player's discretion, as well as represent the accepted idea that LS was never really widespread. Of course, it would mean that you have one or two less unit slots to work with.
That's why you make the mod a Rome: Total War - Alexander mod, so that you have more unit slots to work with (see Diadochi: Total War).

[gamegeek2]

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/loadingscreen.jpg

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/ironcata01-1.jpg

Thought you guys might appreciate this eye-candy...

Who are they?

[MButcher]

Indo-Saka kataphraktoi...please be Indo-Saka kataphraktoi...

[jirisys]

I'll guess: a horse, a man, and chemical elements

~Jirisys (EB Chemist!:clown:)

[Ca Putt]

Nice! looks far eastern, I'd say it's the cataphract for the easternmost faction :D

[LusitanianWolf]

Indo-Saka kataphraktoi...please be Indo-Saka kataphraktoi.
I bet in that too!
Amasing eyecandy!

[anubis88]

Well there's also a question about who are the first 2 guys, on our loading screen that gg2 posted :) Both are badass :clown:

And well, the horse is eastern, but there was no right answer yet... :laugh4:

About the Segmentata... Well it would be quite wierd having a mod ranging from 80 BC to 180 AD without Segmentanta now wouldn't it? :clown:

[Nyz]

For the loading screen, the left guy is Pontos Hetairoi. And the right guy is Ptolemaic Agema Hippeon.

ADD: And the Cataphract pic below is Parthian. (Parthian Cataphract, 1st century BC)

[CaesarAugustus]

Could the Cataphract be.. seleucid?

[MButcher]

"Could the Cataphract be.. seleucid? "

I wouldn't say that it's Seleukid, or even Hellenistic, because the sword looks too long to be a kopis.

Oh, wait. Are you talking about the preview unit or the banner?

[gamegeek2]

He means the upper two.

[MButcher]

Ah, then in that case I would say it's the Baktrioi Hetairoi Kataphraktoi. Looks exactly like the one in-game except for the helm.

[gamegeek2]

The state of Baktria no longer controls Baktria at this point...

Try again.

[Nyz]

For the loading screen, the left guy is Pontos Hetairoi. And the right guy is Ptolemaic Agema Hippeon.

ADD: And the Cataphract pic below is Parthian. (Parthian Cataphract, 1st century BC)

This time I am using Genie from the lamp...

[Finn MacCumhail]

This time I am using Genie from the lamp...

is there any chance he is pink and cute?

[Nyz]

is there any chance he is pink and cute?

Absolutely not. Pinky-Cutey is very professional and honorable. And He (She?) not even a Genie.

[Cute Wolf]

Absolutely not. Pinky-Cutey is very professional and honorable. And He (She?) not even a Genie.

hey! I am male! a man!

[Nyz]

hey! I am male! a man!

Finn and I never mention your name in our conversation. Why you are the one that feel that? :clown:

I am just guessing those units based on the appearance, well, I also not sure whether the answers are right or wrong:

and @ others:

a) I guess the guy in the left is Pontos Hetairoi because of purple color of the mantle, that's Pontos color...
b) The guy at right is Ptolemaioi, look at Serapis design on his shield...
c) The guy below is a variant of Parthian Cataphract in 1st cent BC, I simply googling that and found pic... I am not sure whether he is Pushtigbane or not...

https://img389.imageshack.us/img389/5177/sasnid11pvei4.jpg


Well, c'mon you guys, stop accusing our Indonesian friends leaking the information to me, although they are the mutual members of our Mod groups, they never tell anything secretly about EBNOM, as they are professional and honorable. Do you guys believe that I just simply go to their home, every month, just to snoop the information about your units? I live in Malaysia, and they live in Indonesia, that's 1300KM apart!!!

I am just guessing those units based on the appearance, not leaked info or something else. If you guys doubt the guessing game answer, why not simply ask for explanation, how I come with that answer? Surely I can explain that.

[Rahwana]

anubis88 is too paranoid

[anubis88]

anubis88 is too paranoid

So you are onto me as well aye? You'll never get me ALIVE!! Muahahahaha *Evil dramatic laugh*

But seriously... A preview should be up any day now... I'm just waiting for someone to draw me a pretty map ;)

[Cute Wolf]

So you are onto me as well aye? You'll never get me ALIVE!! Muahahahaha *Evil dramatic laugh*

But seriously... A preview should be up any day now... I'm just waiting for someone to draw me a pretty map ;)

sorry, your mapper is still digging the catalyst resarch journal for his next researxh experiment...

[anubis88]

Greetings Europa Barbarorum fans-

We are proud to present the third preview of our late campaing mod

Europa Barbarorum : Novus Ordo Mundi

Today we will present the
Ptolemaic Kingdom

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/bigptoly.gif

Does the symbol need an introduction? :clown:

Faction Description:

It has been almost 250 years since we Macedonians established ourselves as pharaohs in Egypt. Pharaos such as our ancestors Ptolemy Soter, Ptolemy Philadelphus and Ptolemy Epiphanes were during their reigns the strongest kings in the world, a title which only the contemporaray Seleucid Kings could challenge. The great king Epiphanes even managed to conquer Babylon, but was forced back home by uprisings. Uprisings that would shape much of our history. But our Empire was the strongest and richest in the known world, and perhaps even the borders beyond. Such was the power of the great house of Ptolemy ruling from the banks of the Nile.
Yet things have changed now.
The Ptolemaic dynasty has lost much if not all of it's former strenght. The alliance with the once strong city, now world superpower Rome, has degraded us to such a point, that the once mighty kings bow before the yearly voted consuls of the republic. The security of the state is at the mercy of the Romans, who dictate the policies of our kingdom. The once mighty state has became nothing but a breadbasket for the city of Aeneas.
Yet things can change again.
Civil strife was the main reason the Ptolemaic dynasty became so weak. The Greeks have proven they can live side by side with the natives. If this can be reached again, if the Ptolemaic kings can stop the home uprisings, then the power of the dynasty may be regained once more.
The Romans are in constant turmoil and yet they keep an eye watching over us. We can stop that. People around the Mediteranean have seen what a plague the Romans are. In the north of our lands, the mighty king Mithridates Eupator Dionysios regains his strenght even now while allied to the Mighty King of Kings Tigran, and in from the far west rumors are being whispered of a great leader who has seen the mistake in Roman ways, and has an army large enough to devastate the Republic.
But like us, the greatest fear the Romans have is that of civil strife. If a full scale civil war brakes out, that would be time to strike my pharaoh. Attack the Romans when they have no strenght to retaliate. Bring many lands to your domain which will bring with themselves many riches and soldiers to fuel your power.

Yet be warned. If you fail with your timing, the doom of our nation may be near. Even tough the Romans should be the main source of worry in the long run, at the moment there are neighbours that may not be as dangerous, yet are far closer to our homes.

But do not dispair great Pharaoh! Our kingdom is still rich and pround, and the armies an able king can recruit are still vast and well trained. Perhaps we may see the resurrection of our kingdom, as the leading power in the mediteranean, and the academic center of the world.
Perhaps...


https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/ptolymap-1.jpg
(the map is purely WIP. The Ptolies probably won't have that much influence to the south)

The Ptolemaic Army

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/ptolemaioi/ptol_pantodapoi.gifhttps://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/ptolemaioi/ptol_akontistai.gifhttps://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/ptolemaioi/ptol_sphendenotai.gifhttps://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/ptolemaioi/ptol_toxotai.gifhttps://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/ptolemaioi/ptol_machimoi.gifhttps://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/ptolemaioi/ptol_machimoi_phalangitai.gifhttps://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/ptolemaioi/ptol_peltastai.gifhttps://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/ptolemaioi/ptol_thureophoroi.gifhttps://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/ptolemaioi/ptol_thorakitai.gifhttps://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/ptolemaioi/ptol_machimoi_hippeis.gifhttps://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/ptolemaioi/ptol_lonchophoroi.gifhttps://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/ptolemaioi/ptol_kleruchoi_cav_agema.gifhttps://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/ptolemaioi/ptol_basilikon_agema.gif These are units from EB. you can see their descriptions at www.europabarbarorum.org
https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/thureoPtoly.jpg
Thureophoroi
The Thureophoroi are the new class of infantry that was developed in the Hellenistic kingdoms. While they are not as armoured as in EB (they represent the less armoured Thureophoroi), they are still a decent line unit, but their lack of armour means they are more vulnerable than their heavier armed counterparts, the - and the Thorakitai.

They are armed with a Thureos shield, heavy javelins, a good quality spear and a helmet. They are a very mobile unit, that can be used for many tasks, altough it might crumble under severe pressure. The best use for the Thureophori is for flanikng an harrasing manouvers, but they hold their own against all but the heaviest cavalry.
https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Machairophoroi_Ptoly.jpg
Machairaphoroi
The Machairaphoroi are the regular sword-armed troops of the Hellenistic states. They are used both in battlefields and as a stationary police force, through the Diadochi kingdoms. They are basically thureophoroi with swords, or at least they can be used as such. These men are fairly cost efficient, and can be used in many battlefield roles, but they can't be expected to turn the tide in the thick of the battle, especially againts higher quality infantry.
Nonetheles, they are in invaluable part of the late succesor armies, and greatly complement the other mobile troops.
https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Ptoly-tarantino.jpg
Tarantine Cavalry
Over time, the Tarentine cavalry became a sinonime to a well trained light skirmisher cavalry unit. While the ties to the city of Tarentum was lost, these men became a regular force for the Diadochoi armies. They are very well trained swift horsemen, employed especially to harass and demoralize the enemy army.

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/legio_ptoly.jpg
Ptolemaic cohortes Reformata/Gabiani

After the defeat of Carthage and the great Hellenistic kings Phillip V. and Antiochus III. the Great, Rome became the dominant power in the Mediteranean. The Ptolemaics were one of the first international allies of Rome, and they remained so trought their history. Once the Ptolemies were the most powerful state in the Mediteranean, but now they are almost a vassal to Rome.
Since the 2 nations were allied for almost 200 years at the start of the game, they became very close. And as such, Romans fought in the armies of the pharaoh many times; sometimes as auxiliary forces from the republic, other times as deserters, and also as a standing army of the Pharaoh. We have reports of Romans leaving their army in the service of the Ptolemaic kings (the Gabiniani), which had became over time completly allianeted with their homeland, and fiercly loyal to their new master. The Ptolemaics also welcomed any Roman that was willing to join their army, since they knew how good warriors they were.
For this reason we have decided to allow the Ptolemaics recruitment of Roman Legionaires.
Of course making this men loyal to the Pharaoh took it's toll. They were spoiled by the ruling classes, and forgo their discipline that made them the best regular infantry in the world. Yet this men are still great warriors, capable of not only holding a battle line, but to decisevely rout the enemy.
https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Ptoly_general-1.jpg
Agema Hippeon
These men are the Agema, which means they are the elite part of any army. They are the fiercest warriors in the entire Ptolemaic kingdom, and are what enemies of the pharaoh fear most. While they may not be the same strenght as the Hetairoi of old, they are still battle winning shock troops, that can put to a bloody fight even the best cavalry in the world. Composed by various nationalities, they are loyal to the pharaoh to the death. They are armed with a stout aspis shield, a long lance, excellent quality armour and they also have a well armoured horse. If one want's to go to war with Rome, these are the men you should try to use to most, in order to bring yourself victory.
https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Ptoly_heavy_galatian.jpg
Galatian Heavy Swordsmen
A new version of the Galatians of EB

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/med_cav_Ptoly.jpg
Hellenistic Skirmisher Cavalry
These are the medium skirmisher cavalry of the hellenistic kingdoms. They are decently armoured with a lynothorax, a good quality helmet and a strong aspis shield. They carry javelins and a sword? for close combat, and make a good adition to any army. They are best employed harrasing enemy troops, and striking at them, once their morale is down. They will give a good account of themselves in melee, but shouldn't be expected to fight spearmen or other heavy infantry. They are also good against cavalry.

These type of cavalrymen were common sight in late hellenistic armies. While they are far from an elite unit, they are very usefull and come in handy in many tasks. It would be wise to use them often.

Of course this is not the entire roster of the Ptolemaioi. Most of these units will be recruitable from the Ptolemaic starting domains. If a pharaoh were to expand, his armies would became much more diverse. I should also mention, that in EB NOM, the Ptolemaic Empire's color will be white.

Here's also a Sig, in order to show support for our mod:sweatdrop:

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/ptolyftw.jpg


I hope you enjoyed this mini-preview. Of course everything is WIP. Special thanks to FinnMacCumhail, who made these great units, and to LDC, who made the great looking Agema Hippeon.

[Ca Putt]

NICE! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTkw1-LW7M8)

I hope I got the right vid, as I don't have sound here^^

anyway: man epic preview!! great job

First I wanted to praise your thureophoroi but then I saw that the others are awesome aswell :D

[Reno Melitensis]

So basically the Ptolemaoi stopped using phalanxes in their armies and addopted a more Legionary/Theurophoroi approach. The combination is very interesting. But appart from Roman deserters and merc which may had their equipment similar to thier Roman cousins, I quess that Roman auxilliaries serving in the armies of the Pharoah would have had a more eastern type equipment, like scale armour instead of chainmail. Cheers.

[anubis88]

@ Ca Putt - Thanks for the NICE! :laugh4:

@ Reno - You are right... the phalanx is definetly all but gone.

To adress the Roman question; we have proof of Romans serving the Ptolemaic pharaohs at the end. Some of them as deserters and freelancers, but the most important of all of those were the Gabiniani - They fought as regular Roman legionaires, so we depicted them as such. It would be a waste of unit slots creating multiple Roman troops for the Ptolemaics... Also these guys will be very expensive, and probably only recruitable in Alexandria under certain conditions :)

[gamegeek2]

Actually, there seems to have been a mistake...the phalanx would not have been large, yet Machimoi are very cheap and designed to be recruited in large numbers....

Not only will they be expensive, they will actually be of superior quality than their counterparts, largely due to higher quality armour bestowed on them by the Ptolemaic government, and their being essentially evocati in terms of experience.

[MButcher]

I'm amazed at the progress you guys are making. Ptolemaic fan-boys everywhere thank you!

[CaesarAugustus]

Very nice preview, the time period definitely puts a whole new spin on the Ptoelmaic faction... I am amazed at the progress you guys are making with such a small team, your time and efforts are appreciated! :)

Oh and why was the descision made to change the Ptolies colour white?

[Lionheart]

Thanks for the words.
This is progressing well mainly i believe because we all have a serious passion for the world of Rome Total War.

About the color this is only a suposition from my part but i believe that white is the basic color used in Egypt i believe. Perhaps behind that the decisition to make the Ptolemais faction color white.

Perhaps some other preview will appear soon...

[Tanit]

If you guys want any help on Numidia/Mauretania just send me a PM, I did a bunch of research for late era Numidia before when a previous late era mod was planned.

[Lionheart]

Actualy i do have a doubt.
In late Numidia the Garamantes and the Gaetuli provided or possessed somo cavalry unit that could perhaps be added to the roster unit of Numidia.

Also besides Hiempsal II, Juba I do you know anymore family members or sons that served Hiempsal II or Juba I? Or perhaps some notorious general.

Also about Mauretania they will not appear as a faction however they will be eleutheroi. I know that Bocchus I is the king. However do you have the names of the heirs of Bocchus I or brothers?

[Tanit]

Answer 1: Yes, the Gaetulians provided infantry and cavalry for Jugurtha, later Numidian rulers, and even for Roman legions. The Gaetulians were renowned for their bravery and loyalty. I have done a concept for including them in EB2 but they will not be in the first release. If you ask nicely gg2 or I can send you the concept info ;). The Garamantes, meanwhile, had virtually nothing to do with Numidia or Mauritania and existed in their own little kingdom fighting only the occaisonal war, such as against Rome under Lucius Cornelius Balbus, until after the fall of the Roman empire when they expanded into a full fledged African empire that thrived until the invasion of Islam.

Answer 2: I have in my notes that Hiempsal II had a brother named Mastanabal, but I cannot find the source reference. If you can find the source that would be something. As for other Numidians, Hiarbas is a governor who started a revolt in 81 against Hiempsal II, which was ended by Pompey on Sulla's orders to restore the faithful Hiempsal. Dabar is a cousin of Hiempsal who featured in the Jugurthine war and was young then. he might still be alive. Sthembanus was the last son of Massinissa, born only a short time before he died during the third Punic war, meaning he could still be alive at 60, his father lived past 90. Jugurtha had a son named Oxynta. I think he died in the war, but I can't recall, something to look into.

Answer 3: Bocchus has three sons, Volux, Bocchus II and Bogud. Bocchus II was the last king because he killed Bogud, no one says what happens to Volux, and has no heirs. Bogud was married to Eunoë. Look through Caesar's 'African War', there are a ton of nobles and generals mentioned. I myself have only skimmed it, but it contains a lot of detail.

[keravnos]

I am posting here to present some info on the Hashmonayim, (Hasmoneans), who 'd be the reason I am watching this mod.

Some sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasmonean

Their King and High Priest at the time of the beginning of the mod.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Jannaeus

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/NewSonsOfLight.html

From there,

The army is divided into 3 arms - infantry, cavalry and what are called towers in 1QM, but artillery in 4Q491. The equipment of only one sort of infantry is described in any detail. These men carry a shield 2.5 cubits long and 1.5 cubits wide (approximately 115 by 69 cm, but perhaps 105 by 63 cm depending upon the size of the cubit). This has in the past been interpreted as a Roman scutum, but its size is rather too small, much more like the thureoi depicted on many monuments of Hellenistic mercenaries. Each such infantryman carries a sword, 1.5 cubits long, and a spear, 7 cubits long (ca. 320 cm, or 10'8"). No armour is mentioned, no javelins are carried. Such infantrymen would appear to be nothing more or less than standard thureophoroi, save for the apparent lack of a helmet.8

According to 1QM - 5.3-4 and 5.16-17, the infantry are organised in divisions 1000 men across, and 7 ranks/lines deep. Evidently, each such formation comprises the infantry complement of one of the four "camps", since we are told (1QM - 9.4) that the total number of infantry in the army is 28000.9 Each division is divided into three lines, apparently separated, at least at deployment, by a 30 cubit gap. The first line ordered into battle is comprised of 2 ranks/lines of slingers.10 They are to deliver seven volleys before they are ordered to retire and take their station on each flank of the formation. The number 7 is rather symbolic and might not be taken literally, although there is nothing on the face of it improbable about it. The next line ordered forwards are 3 ranks/lines of javelinmen. The first rank is to hurl 7 javelins, then the second rank likewise, and then the third rank 7 more volleys, before they too are ordered to retire, though unlike the slingers they do not move to the flanks. Again, the number of volleys may be merely symbolic, but Roman velites are variously reported to have carried either 5 or 7 javelins so once again, the number is not itself implausible.

The final line, of older "men of the rule", comprises two ranks/lines of infantrymen, the first with shield and spear, the second with shield and sword.11 The description of the infantryman given above most probably applies to these men then, either the first or possibly both ranks. These men are to fight in close order (4Q491 - 13.7), and deliver the final blow to the enemy battle line. Once it has been routed, the trumpets sound the signal for all 7 ranks/lines to advance together to inflict as great a slaughter as possible.12

Two types of cavalry are mentioned. Each rank of infantry is to be accompanied by 50 cavalry "of the rule", mature men aged 40-50, equipped with a lance 8 cubits long (ca. 365 cm, or 12'), helmet, greaves, cuirasse and round shield. There is a lacuna in the text that has been filled in by some translators to read in whole "they, and their mounts, shall wear cuirasses, helmets and greaves", but its is hard to see why horses should be wearing greaves like their riders, and the words "mounts shall wear" should be probably be replaced by something else.13 The total number of these heavy cavalrymen is given as 1400, confirming the arrangement of 4 divisions, each with 7 ranks. The rest of the (presumably lighter) cavalry, who appear to be equipped with bows and javelins, are to be 200 strong for every 1000 infantry, marshaled in 7 lines on both flanks of each division. This should total 5600 such cavalry, but the text actually says 4600 are required. Presumably a copyist has made a mistake somewhere, and this has been incorporated into 1QM as it has survived, since it is noted that this totals 6000 cavalry in all, "500 per tribe" - this being the only mention of a tribe in the main body of text outside of column 4. It would thus appear that the cavalry total was originally envisaged as 7000 men.14

The (light) cavalry are to form up 7 deep on each flank of the infantry formation; the disposition of the heavier cavalry is not stated, but may be assumed to be similar given that they too are said to be one rank deep per infantry rank. The cavalry are probably intended to advance and retreat in time with the infantry lines, covering their flanks (1QM - 7.4-5, 4Q491 - 1.12), but it is not clear which cavalry are assigned this duty; they are also mentioned in passing in the pursuit of the routed foe. All-in-all, the function and role of the cavalry is decidedly under reported compared with that of the infantry.


I would also advise buying,
Osprey Fortress 065 The Forts of Judaea 168 BC AD 73 From the Maccabees to The Fall of Masada.

The armies of everyone by that time were Romani like. I don't think there can be doubts about that. The very fact that Alexander Yonatan had to face civil war means that he was relying on mercs, like everyone else at that time. Mercs like the ones below.
http://www.ancientbattles.com/thureophoroi/Mercenary_thureophoros.jpg

Their best troops that we know of because of Josephus are the "Ioudaioi Ekatontamachoi" or Hundred fighters, who were considered able to outfight a hundred opponents each.

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=28448

Other pictorial sources



Egypt soldiers of that time,
http://s122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos7/?action=view&current=NileMosaicOfPalestrinaSoldiers.jpg

-some pictures from here sent over to Novus Ordo Mundi dev forum-
(This post will be updated to include more information I have, which I can't access right now).

Historical helmets they 'd use.

[ex]
side
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos4/Pergamonhelmet1.jpg
face
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos4/Pergamonhelmet2.jpg

https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos9/HelmetfromSidonfinds.jpg

and this one, thracian one shown, found in many depictions.
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos4/Bubujthracoattic.jpg
shown here
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos4/Helmetshown2.jpg
and here
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos4/PIC_1652.jpg

This one,
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos4/Sidonhelmet1.jpg



A great depiction of a helmet worn at the time and how it was worn is the following,
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos4/Thracianhelmetfoundin-nisa1.jpg

Notice the thunderbolts adorning the side guards of the helmet.

[gamegeek2]

Ah, we have a use for our Spathaphoroi after all...

We're adding Euzonoi (helmet, thureos, shortsword and javelin), Thureophoroi (helmet, thureos, oh spear, and javelin)

Thureophoroi from EB are renamed to Longchephoroi, and we also have Machairophoroi (machaira/kopis, linothorax, thureos, javelin, helmet)

We will also keep the Ioudaioi Taxeis around, and have a unit we can use for the Ekatonamachoi - it was orignally going to be a heavy sword unit for the Syrian factions, but apparently it's only really historical for the Hasmoneans. It has chain mail, a Celtic sword, heavy javelins, helmet, and greaves, with a thureos for a shield.

[keravnos]

That's good to know, thing is I have to insist on having a bronze face thureos as historically attested. I don't understand why it shouldn't since we know that the round aspis shield otherwise known as "hoplon" had bronze coating as well. It would make sense to have a bronze coated thureos for the elite troops of the Hasmonayim. Josephs' testimony makes this imperative.

This one,
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/helmet%20details/FullbronzethureosfoundinBritain.jpg

[CaesarAugustus]

We will also keep the Ioudaioi Taxeis around, and have a unit we can use for the Ekatonamachoi - it was orignally going to be a heavy sword unit for the Syrian factions, but apparently it's only really historical for the Hasmoneans. It has chain mail, a Celtic sword, heavy javelins, helmet, and greaves, with a thureos for a shield.

Factions in the plural? Interesting, though I thought Tigranes' Hayastan was in control of Syria by the start date of this mod. Are you perhaps planning to represent a Seleucid rump state?

[vartan]

Factions in the plural? Interesting, though I thought Tigranes' Hayastan was in control of Syria by the start date of this mod. Are you perhaps planning to represent a Seleucid rump state?
Tigran (usually mistakenly dubbed Tigranes as per the Greco-centrism ever-so-present in the field of history up through the 20th century) was throned ruler of Syria early during the 80s BC and had to conceded in the 60s BC. More specific dates should be easy to find for historians! hah!

What are the so-called 'Syrian factions' ?

[gamegeek2]

Syrian is a broad reference to the Levant, in this context. Perhaps I should've said Levantine.

Kos, PM me and I'll give you the forum link...

[CaesarAugustus]

Tigran (usually mistakenly dubbed Tigranes as per the Greco-centrism ever-so-present in the field of history up through the 20th century) was throned ruler of Syria early during the 80s BC and had to conceded in the 60s BC. More specific dates should be easy to find for historians! hah!

Ah of course I forgot that little detail, I suppose for consistency's sake I should have said ''Tigran's Hayastan'' or ''Tigranes' Armenia''. :P


Syrian is a broad reference to the Levant, in this context. Perhaps I should've said Levantine.

Still, the only factions occupying the Levant at this time would be Hayastan, Nabatea and the Hasmoneans, right?

[Lionheart]

Thank's Tanit for your informations they will be kept in our mind specialy regarding the names of rulers and heirs and even generals.
About Gaetulim at the presente they are only representated as infantry however a cavalry unit will be good. I will talk with the people in our internal forums and see what can be done.

About the Garamantes they also possess cavalry?

[gamegeek2]

Ah of course I forgot that little detail, I suppose for consistency's sake I should have said ''Tigran's Hayastan'' or ''Tigranes' Armenia''. :P

Still, the only factions occupying the Levant at this time would be Hayastan, Nabatea and the Hasmoneans, right?

The Ptollies had a pretty big stake in the Levant.

[vartan]

The Ptollies had a pretty big stake in the Levant.
Except that by the time period during which the mod begins, the Ptolemaic Kingdom was pretty much a vassal of the Roman Empire.

EDIT: Or 'Ptolemaic Empire', if you could still call it that.

[gamegeek2]

Keravnos, can you delete some PM's? Your box is full.

[keravnos]

Will do.
Done.

[cathar1209]

Just a random word of congrats on the work done so far and for the rest of the developpment of the mod. Personally i'm very curious to see what do you have in your sleeve for SPQR, namely after the establishment of the Empire, around 20 BC. With new scripts and reforms for the romans, playing as SPQR in Novus Ordo Mundi may be an unique experience.
Cheers!

[Atraphoenix]

Please help my modding with a vote.

Thanks
Atra

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?131094-What-is-the-most-influential-goverment-types-during-EB-time-frame

[Tanit]

Thank's Tanit for your informations they will be kept in our mind specialy regarding the names of rulers and heirs and even generals.
About Gaetulim at the presente they are only representated as infantry however a cavalry unit will be good. I will talk with the people in our internal forums and see what can be done.

About the Garamantes they also possess cavalry?

Yes, check the preview 'Native Peoples of North Africa' for EB2. The Garamantines used infantry, cavalry, chariots and archers. There is a lot of info in the unit descriptions. The archers used a simple bow, no recurve to it.

[jirisys]

A little eyecandy for the recent Preview

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1177/5075674247_63966c8638.jpg

~Jirisys (Userbar!)

[LDC]

So guys, what's our next preview?

[Rahwana]

So guys, what's our next preview?

soon to be determined

[anubis88]

Actually it's determined... But i won't reveal it yet... It's a surprise... If people will ask nicely then they may see it soon... If not... Wel... :D

[Tanit]

Please?

[vartan]

Please?
Aren't you part of the history team? haha.

[Nyz]

Actually it's determined... But i won't reveal it yet... It's a surprise... If people will ask nicely then they may see it soon... If not... Wel... :D

Well Anubis, perhaps you have to make the preview by your own before it will be revealed out... jeng jeng jengggggg!

[Tanit]

Aren't you part of the history team? haha.

Nah, busy with EB2, I just offered some advice on the Numidians. Other than a specialty in North West Africa, I'm only as qualified as any other historian on other areas.

[anubis88]

Well, Tanit, if you ever feel like it to help us out in other departments, you would be more then welcome.

All I can say thus far about the preview is that it's going to be waaaaaaay better then the Ptolemaic one... Even the faction is much stronger at this point in time :clown:

[Lionheart]

A new unit was been made. A small candy for all of you before the release of a new faction.

So what unit do you believe this is?

http://i29.servimg.com/u/f29/15/49/53/87/gaetul10.jpg

[vartan]

Certainly light cavalry. Looks like he only has a lance. Maybe he has a sword, too? Maybe missiles (javelins) instead? And is he from Africa?

[plutoboyz]

A new unit was been made. A small candy for all of you before the release of a new faction.

So what unit do you believe this is?

http://i29.servimg.com/u/f29/15/49/53/87/gaetul10.jpg

he must be light cavalry. no saddle=numidian
looking from previous post, Gaetuli light cavalry?

[Tanit]

Well, Tanit, if you ever feel like it to help us out in other departments, you would be more then welcome.

Just send me a PM if you ever want me to look into anything.

As for the new unit image, hmm, maybe a Nabataean/Arabian? Or a Iudaean.

[Nyz]

Parashim Gaetulim.

[Tanit]

ok, I guessed before I looked at the image name, yeah, definitely gaetulian, cool.

[CaesarAugustus]

So... about that preview...

[vartan]

So... about that preview...
This forum should really implement Reddit's thumbs up or down feature. CaesarAugustus: Thumbs up.

[Rahwana]

go on facebook and click on "like this post"

[anubis88]

So... about that preview...

Very soon my friend. RL things got in a way, but since i know you guys are waiting on it i'll try to finish it today :)

[CaesarAugustus]

Very soon my friend. RL things got in a way, but since i know you guys are waiting on it i'll try to finish it today :)

No pressure, I was just worried that the thread for my favourite sub-mod seems too quiet. :) but I understand that sadly RL tends to get in the way of the good things in life.

[anubis88]

It may take a day or two unfortunatly... But here's a sneak peak :clown:

This is a new unit for the preview... Can you guess what it is?

https://oi51.tinypic.com/14ac5ex.jpg

[vartan]

No pressure, I was just worried that the thread for my favourite sub-mod seems too quiet. :) but I understand that sadly RL tends to get in the way of the good things in life.
Don't worry my friend. There are plenty of good things in "real" life! Rest assured!

[Unintended BM]

It may take a day or two unfortunatly... But here's a sneak peak :clown:

This is a new unit for the preview... Can you guess what it is?

https://oi51.tinypic.com/14ac5ex.jpg

Pontus bodyguard cavalry

[CaesarAugustus]

^^I think so too, either the bodyguard unit or some Pontic kataphract.

[anubis88]

Close... I can tell you that the Pontic Bodyguards look even better then this unit. They are really a masterpiece... These guys are some sort of Pontic Cata's... But they will be recruitable for Parthia and Armenia as well... Does this new info help?

[Arjos]

Cappadocian Noble Cavalry?

[gamegeek2]

And we have a winner!

[Reno Melitensis]

Nice unit guys, but right now I hate every catapracth on earth. I am having a hard time stooping their devestating charages against my legions. I am locked in a power strrugle with the Pahlava.

Cheers

[anubis88]

Then I guess you'll really dislike the Pahlava preview :clown:

[plutoboyz]

Then I guess you'll really dislike the Pahlava preview :clown:
so next preview is Pahlava? Hurray!!!

[anubis88]

Nah, it's Pontos... That's why I showed a unit nearby Pontos :)

[vartan]

so next preview is Pahlava? Hurray!!!
...wait for it...wait for it...

Nah, it's Pontos... That's why I showed a unit nearby Pontos :)
...owned! mawahahah Why did you make it seem like Pahlava was gonna be next?! Ok, you didn't, but when I read, I hoped!

[Reno Melitensis]

Then I guess you'll really dislike the Pahlava preview :clown:

Well we will see. If the unis are as awsome as the ones already shown you are forgiven for the hard times.

Cheers

[gamegeek2]

Nice unit guys, but right now I hate every catapracth on earth. I am having a hard time stooping their devestating charages against my legions. I am locked in a power strrugle with the Pahlava.

Cheers


I express my sincerest apologies as I laugh in your face.

[vartan]

Well we will see. If the unis are as awsome as the ones already shown you are forgiven for the hard times.
I was recently at a conference regarding wronging and its the first thing that came to mind. As the theory stands, we aren't in any special standing; that is, we don't have any position or any qualification to forgive the developers. As I gather it, the developers don't owe it to us not to wrong us by not providing quicker and more frequent previews. In fact, they aren't wronging us by providing less frequent previews. As I sit here writing this text, a man in the row of computers in front of me (here at the university's primary library) is typing quickly left and right and never staying at one website for longer than 10 seconds. Literally. He is going from YouTube video to YouTube video to YouTube search to video to search...you get the point. He clicks on various points in the video, sees individual frames for no longer than half a second, and moves on. It is so unbelievably hilarious that I wish I had it on film. Anyway, nothing of seriousness. Good luck to the devs.

P.S. GG2 I forget what you wanted me to do cause I don't really keep in mind anything regarding EB:NOM any more. Like, maybe I could translate some things, think of new units (I think that's what you wanted), or come up with new descriptions for buildings or units. Dude...just use generic descriptions or maintain original EB descriptions. Unless the person's interested in you-know-which faction, its buildings and its units (and its history, needless to say), then the person will not likely care or even read at all these descriptions. They will care about the stats, etc. Ya follow ?

I express my sincerest apologies as I laugh in your face.
This. Apologies are merely expressions of remorse and hence useless. It is only forgiveness by the wronged (none in this case) that allows for closure and renewed relations. Hell, Yeah.

[gamegeek2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZsbnG5IiGY

Previewing the EB:NOM intro music (courtesy of GRV Music) and a few unnamed units.

[Tanit]

It may be the music from the Starcraft 2 preview, but I like it in its new setting.

[gamegeek2]

It may be the music from the Starcraft 2 preview, but I like it in its new setting.

The music is from a group called GRV Music. The selection is a clip from the piece "Grand Battle"

[Reno Melitensis]

Gamegeek2 that music is awesome, its electrifiying, and all those Cathapracts. For Jupiter Maximus.

Cheers.

[CaesarAugustus]

That row of cataphracts was... beautiful.

[Lionheart]

Yep. We are trying to make videos and songs for introductions. I believe you will like this very much.
GG2 that was excellent you rule like i imaginated that in my head. Now i'm imagining the battles and songs.

[gamegeek2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZsbnG5IiGY

Here's the video link, for this page.

[anubis88]

I finally got some time, so the preview is really really near... It's almost at a stage where I can start porting in on the forums...

I apologize for putting it off for so long, but i think you will be deligthed once you see it... Perhaps a mini-sneak peak is in order, since you will see this unit in the preview anyways :D

Try to guess which one it is, and whether it's badass or not :clown:

http://i54.tinypic.com/504ju9.jpg

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Pahlavan Cataphract Horse Archers of some sort I would say

[vartan]

I'm going to be a **** of a forum member and say please do not use language such as ***-*** to describe the weather (although, admittedly, it was quite odd of you [Anubis] to describe the weather in such a fashion).

Great picture by the way. Who does it depict?

[anubis88]

I'm going to be a **** of a forum member and say please do not use language such as ***-*** to describe the weather (although, admittedly, it was quite odd of you [Anubis] to describe the weather in such a fashion).

Great picture by the way. Who does it depict?

HAHAHA... EPIC FAIL... I agree... I didn't even see it till now :) But i won't tell you which unit this is... yet... All i can tell you is that it will be employed by Mithridates Eupator Dionisyos...

[Nyz]

Roxolana Uaezdaettae.

[anubis88]

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/pontosmap.jpg

Βασίλειον του Πόντου - The kingdom of Pontus

The great Kingdom of Pontus has lost much it's territories after the first Mithridatic war, but your kingdom will still be one of the richest and most prosperous in the game. You'll have a great hold almost around the entire black sea and a good portion of Asia Minor.
Even tough the first war with Rome would suggest Rome was far superior, the second war showed that with good commanders at the helm, Pontos can keep the Romans at bay. Your goals should be to try and secure the lands in Asia Minor. Once that is done, you may start thinking about attacking the Romans in their heartland, like the king tried a few year ago. Of course you may also expand in other directions, but that wouldn't be as wise, since the steppes aren't nearly as rich as the Roman provinces, and attacking your friend, the great king of kings, would probably be a mistake as well. Of course attacking the Romans with them ready, and you unprepared, would be a fools erand. You should try to forge an alliance with the various parties at war with Rome, especially the formidable Roman rebel Quintus Sertorius in Hispania.
Who knows, you might even get a gift from him or two.

The upsides of playing a faction as Pontus are clear; you will probably have the most diverse army in the game, capable to fight wars with multiple enemies. From local light infatry, to greek and Roman influenced units, from the warriors of the steppes to the peoples of the sea, from chariots to local nobles, a Pontic king will be able to summon armies as specific as required for various tasks. Your starting position is very strong, yet it could prove vulnerable, since the holdings of the King are divided by the great Pontus Euxinos, a great sea, which has almost became a Pontic lake.

The downsides are pretty obvious as well. While diverse armies are great on one hand, they can prove to be of very low morale on the other, since there isn't really a true sense of unity amongst the warriors of the Pontic king.

The key will be to hold your starting territories intact, and to try to avoid a full scale with Rome unless either the King becomes stronger the before, or civil turmoil strikes in the Urbs.

Without a shadow of a doubt, Pontos will be one of the most interesting factions in EB NOM.

The Pontic Army

Like it was said before, the Pontic army will probably be the most diverse in game. You should try to use all the various fighting stiles at your disposal, and put together the best of all. The people willing to fight for you cannot be numbered; such is the sheer size of Mithridateses domain. Scythians, Sarmatians, Colchians, Thracians, Cappadocians, Galatians, Greeks are just a small part of the possibilites laying ahead of you.

Further description of these units can be found on www.europabarbarorum.org

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pon_pantodapoi.gif Pandas - low tier hellenistic infantry - once a common sight in battles, their role has diminished, but they can still prove usefull from time to time.
https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pon_akontistai.gif Basic hellenistic skirmishers; they should be used... Well... For skirmishing and not much alse.
https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pon_artishpada.gif Basic eastern skirmishers; they should be used... Well... For skirmishing and not much alse.
https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pon_sphendenotai.gif The basic slingers of the Pontic army.

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pon_shubar_fradak.gif Eastern type of slinger. A solid ranged unit.

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pon_toxotai.gif Basic archers.

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pon_peltastai.gif Pretty decent medium infantry; usefull for skirmishing and melee.

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pontos_lonchophoroi.gif Solid all round cavalry, available in most parts of your kingdom

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pontos_uazali_merc.gif Karian warriors; nice medium unit, tough very vulnerable to ranged troops.

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pon_lavotuxri.gif The nobility of the Galatians; a truly awesome cavalry unit.

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pon_kluddolon.gif Young Galatians trying to prove their worth in their society.

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pon_kuarothoroi.gif Very strong, almost elite Galatian unit, well able to preform most tasks on the battlefield.

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pon_tindanotae.gif Crazy drugged naked warriors... No further explanation required

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pontos_anatolian_hillmen.gif Nice medium unit, very valuable against armoured troops.

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pontos_katpatuka_zanteush.gif Nice medium unit, very effective against armoured opposition

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pon_scythian_foot_archers.gif A much improved archer unit over the regular toxotai.

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pon_doryphoroi_pontikoi.gif light unit with a large shield and very long and pointy spears.

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pontos_thureopheromenoi_toxotai.gif One of the best archers in the game. Once they run out of arrows, they can still be used as solid medium infantry. A very rare combo in the ancient world.

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pon_bydirag_baex.gif Horse archers with spears. A most powerfull combination

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pon_scythian_nobles.gif One of the great units available to the Pontic king. Very well armoured, and can deliver a devastating charge.

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pontos_pontic_thorakitai.gif A variation of a unit intended to fight in the Roman manner, but with a lot of hellenistic influences as well.

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pon_chalkaspidai.gif The last remaining unit of an era when the phalanx was the most used type of soldier around the known world.

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/thureophoroi_pontos.jpg The lighter version of the Thureophoroi is one of the most common units used in the late hellenistic armies. They can prove more then capable of fighting off other light infantry and cavalry, but will suffer once the opposition becomes armoured.

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Machairophoroi_Pontos.jpg The Machairaphoroi are a very simmilar unit to the Thureophoroi, yet they use swords instead of spears. That gives them an advantage against other infantry, but puts them in a slightly worse position against cavalry. Overall a very usefull unit for it's price.

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Pontos_tarantinoi.jpg the Tarantinoi have been used around the mediterranean extensively for the last 200 years. They are an excellent light cavalry, but that's all they are. Light cavalry.

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Pontos_medium_cav.jpg Basically a more armoured version of the Tarantinoi... Not as fast, but stronger in melee then their cousins.

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/pics/Info/hellenistic_chariot_scythed_INFO.jpg The chariots are still to be found in the Pontic army, even tough they performed poorly against Romans in their preview incounters. They are the reason why Mithridates became strong in the first place, since their charge broke the army of the Bythinian king in the First Mithridatic war.

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Cappadocia_kata_Pontos.jpg The Cappadocians have been employed by the Kings of Pontus for a long time, and these Cappadocian Nobles are the elite of the elite from that region. Armoured from head to toe, both horse and man, they are truly awesome sight on the battlefield. We have reports of Romans not attacking Pontic armies in the third Mitrhidatic war once they knew they had Cappadocians at their side.

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Pontic_bosphoran_infantry.jpg These warrior hail from the other side of the Pontus Euxinus. Well armoured and disciplined, they can be an excellent medium infantry. They should be used extensively in your northern front.

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Pontic_thureophoroi_bareas.jpg A heavier version of the Thureophoroi mentioned before, the Thureophoroi Bareis are strong medium infantry, used best as anti-cavalry units.

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/colhida_swordsman.jpg The Cholchians were, as described by Appian, the most warlike people in the armies of Mithridates. They are very well armoured, but their strenght comes from their warlike traditions and great morale. Put these men where the battle will be thickest, and you will not be sorry. While they may not be the Elite of the Elite, they wil still prove themselves in every battle you will make them fight.

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Pontos_spathaphoroi.jpg The Spathaphoroi are another version of "immitation legionaries". Fusing what's best from the Galatians, Greeks and Romans, these men can fight against almost all opponents. They should be used whenever it's possible. However, they will not come cheap, so be ready to dig in your pockets to recruit them.

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Pontos_hetairoi-1.jpg It all comes down to these guys. The are the personal guard of the Pontic Royal family. These men are the best of the best of what can be found in the Kingdom of Pontus. Armoud from head to toe, they are probably the best all round Heavy cavalry in the diadochi states since the Hetairoi of Alexander himself. They were a source of worry for the Romans in their wars with Mithridates, and were fiercly loyal to the king. We have at least 2 reports of these man saving Mithridates from certain death, and of them turning the tide of the battle in the favour of the Pontic king.


I hope you liked the preview. Of course the descripitons are not final, but since i don't have much time right now, i thought it would be better to show you what we have done so far then spend more days to write the descriptions.

A special thank you goes to FinnMacCumhail and LDC who made the new units, and of course to the rest of the EB NOM team for working on the mod.

[Reno Melitensis]

Very interesting rooster, and cool units too. Cheers.

[Morte66]

Pontos! \o/

This lot should be really cool.

I've a feeling Pontos will play well in this mod since they've achieved a decent critical mass at the start. And that's a pretty neat roster -- pikemen and horse archers in the same army, lots of ways to get things done.

Also, they look like a faction where you might not disband your entire navy on turn 1 for a change.

[Finn MacCumhail]

Here is one more present! Fresh EB NOM video

Try to name all units you see there


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0N3teon1u4

[Morte66]

Hmm, I just noticed that there were no Pantadapoi Phalangitai on the unit list. Had they fallen out of favour, leaving only the Chalky Spiders? Or did you just miss 'em?

[anubis88]

We will probably keep only the Elite pikemen in the game for the Hellenistic factions...

[vartan]

We will probably keep only the Elite pikemen in the game for the Hellenistic factions...
Great. I'm looking forward to 20-unit stacks of Elite pikemen from my enemies. Wonderful!

[anubis88]

Great. I'm looking forward to 20-unit stacks of Elite pikemen from my enemies. Wonderful!

They will have very limited AOR and will be expensive... Sory to crush your hopes :clown:

[Reno Melitensis]

[QUOTE=Finn MacCumhail;2053225939]Here is one more present! Fresh EB NOM video

Try to name all units you see there

QUOTE]

Finn that video prev. is great, but sorry to tell you that music sucks.

Cheers

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

What year is this mod going til? Reason I ask is the Romans wearing LS at two points in the video, most noticeably at the very end.

[gamegeek2]

Here is one more present! Fresh EB NOM video

Try to name all units you see there



Finn that video prev. is great, but sorry to tell you that music sucks.

Cheers

Heh...I don't like the music much either.

Now, here's some music we intend to use - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvlAonmZwY4 (0:37 to 3:44, specifically)

The mod is from 80 BC to 180 AD

[Cute Wolf]

Heh...I don't like the music much either.

Now, here's some music we intend to use - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvlAonmZwY4 (0:37 to 3:44, specifically)

The mod is from 80 BC to 180 AD


hey, at least finn's music are rather good and fit the video scene. :P
please stop being so sarcastic with your mod members

[gamegeek2]

hey, at least finn's music are rather good and fit the video scene. :P
please stop being so sarcastic with your mod members

No, I'm being honest. I'm not the biggest fan of the music he chose, doesn't seem appropriate for a battle.

And by the way, it's not my mod - it's not anyones mod. yOU seem to imply that I own the team...

[QuintusSertorius]

Never mind appropriate, it was just plain awful. Grating on the ear.

[vartan]

And by the way, it's not my mod - it's not anyones mod. yOU seem to imply that I own the team...
I knew you had an anarchist and/or marxist inside you somewhere. Hi-5.

Never mind appropriate, it was just plain awful. Grating on the ear.
That's what I'm talking about. DOOOOO DOOOOO what was that instrument? Shieeeeet.

[Finn MacCumhail]

Blasphemy. Ancient Greek music can't sucks a priori. Modern people spoiled with huge amount of music genres, bands and so on.

But the ugly truth is that Ancient Greeks had no Metallica, AC/DC, or Rammstein or anything like that. They had "DOOOOO DOOOOO". And if I'm not mistaking, Greeks went to battle hearing that kind of "DOOOOO DOOOOO", that inspired them to the great deeds. So it is doubtful, that the music suets battle not. I think it's all about stereotypes, based on Hollywood movies. during the epic battles they always have some dramatic and epic music, while in reality it was just flute and drum.

[Rahwana]

Blasphemy. Ancient Greek music can't sucks a priori. Modern people spoiled with huge amount of music genres, bands and so on.

But the ugly truth is that Ancient Greeks had no Metallica, AC/DC, or Rammstein or anything like that. They had "DOOOOO DOOOOO". And if I'm not mistaking, Greeks went to battle hearing that kind of "DOOOOO DOOOOO", that inspired them to the great deeds. So it is doubtful, that the music suets battle not. I think it's all about stereotypes, based on Hollywood movies. during the epic battles they always have some dramatic and epic music, while in reality it was just flute and drum.

seconded, through I still prefer when Metalllica and Iron Maiden songs used as Battle music.
But we must stick to history don't we?

[vartan]

Blasphemy. Ancient Greek music can't sucks a priori. Modern people spoiled with huge amount of music genres, bands and so on.

But the ugly truth is that Ancient Greeks had no Metallica, AC/DC, or Rammstein or anything like that. They had "DOOOOO DOOOOO". And if I'm not mistaking, Greeks went to battle hearing that kind of "DOOOOO DOOOOO", that inspired them to the great deeds. So it is doubtful, that the music suets battle not. I think it's all about stereotypes, based on Hollywood movies. during the epic battles they always have some dramatic and epic music, while in reality it was just flute and drum.
Most ancient musical notation is still to be decoded. So let the DOOO DOOO begin!

P.S. Hollywood says Hi.

[Finn MacCumhail]

:juggle2:

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/RomeTW-BI2010-11-1315-28-51-53.jpg

[QuintusSertorius]

I think it's all about stereotypes, based on Hollywood movies. during the epic battles they always have some dramatic and epic music, while in reality it was just flute and drum.

You can still make music with flute and drum that's actually good (like much of what's already in EB1.2). That jarring cacophany is not.

[Finn MacCumhail]

You can still make music with flute and drum that's actually good (like much of what's already in EB1.2). That jarring cacophany is not.

actually, the music I used is traditional authentic Ancient Greek Delphic Paean music, written by ancient Greeks. And it is a part of world heredity. This music survived for more then 2 thousands years. Well, I can't understand how someone can call it "cacophany". But I think you understand it and keep arguing just to troll, isn't it?

[QuintusSertorius]

actually, the music I used is traditional authentic Ancient Greek Delphic Paean music, written by ancient Greeks. And it is a part of world heredity. This music survived for more then 2 thousands years. Well, I can't understand how someone can call it "cacophany". But I think you understand it and keep arguing just to troll, isn't it?

No one is disputing whether or not it's "authentic". That's not the point. Tastes change, and I can quite easily call that aural assault a "cacophany", because that's what it is to my ears.

The music in EB presently is inspired by, but not slavishly aping ancient music. Its adapted to sound like something more appealing to modern listeners, as indeed one of the loading screens about the music says. That's entirely the point.

The Antikythera mechanism survived more than two millenia and is a fascinating piece of technology showing what was possible at the time. That doesn't make it a useful calculating device in the modern age, just an interesting novelty and historical artifact. The same is true of ancient music, nice to understand how things were, not necessarily appropriate in the modern age.

[Finn MacCumhail]

No one is disputing whether or not it's "authentic". That's not the point. Tastes change, and I can quite easily call that aural assault a "cacophany", because that's what it is to my ears.

The music in EB presently is inspired by, but not slavishly aping ancient music. Its adapted to sound like something more appealing to modern listeners, as indeed one of the loading screens about the music says. That's entirely the point.

The Antikythera mechanism survived more than two millenia and is a fascinating piece of technology showing what was possible at the time. That doesn't make it a useful calculating device in the modern age, just an interesting novelty and historical artifact. The same is true of ancient music, nice to understand how things were, not necessarily appropriate in the modern age.

Why so serious? Turn the sound off, you know it is possible on both youtube and manualy on your computer, why everyone should know about you being assaulted by the authentic ancient Greek music?

I can't write music by myself by now (who knows what will be in the future?), that is why I used authentic ancient music. It also don't violates the copyright. So why not? You find it "cacophoni", and I am not. What next?

[Ludens]

actually, the music I used is traditional authentic Ancient Greek Delphic Paean music, written by ancient Greeks. And it is a part of world heredity. This music survived for more then 2 thousands years. Well, I can't understand how someone can call it "cacophany".

Supposing hardrock survives for two thousand years, don't you think people from the future will think it jarring too? Just because it's old, and culturally important, does not mean we have to like it.

I think it OK, by the way; but I don't think it will work as a soundtrack.

[Finn MacCumhail]

Supposing hardrock survives for two thousand years, don't you think people from the future will think it jarring too? Just because it's old, and culturally important, does not mean we have to like it.

I think it OK, by the way; but I don't think it will work as a soundtrack.

I would be pleased, if hardrock survived for 2 thousand years. Look at the Piramids - old and culturally important. But they have simple shape. Why everyone likes them?

And once again, the music is just a soundtrac to movie not to game. If someone shoked with the music, Greeks actualy listend, the information about hygiene, habits and so on would be kinda shoking too. But should we not speaking about them only because it doesn't suit our modern vievs?

[vartan]

As much as I can see how people's tastes change over time (duh!), I have to stick with Finn on this one. I'll be frank about it. If you hate the music of a game (think EB, for some of you people), you mute and start playing your stereo. You would never ask EB's dev team to integrate modern hits into EBII, so why would you do the same for EB:NOM? Correct me if I'm mistaken, but EB:NOM is just as much about teaching and representing history as EB herself was, albeit representing a later period. Hop off your high ground and come to terms. I take Finn's word when it comes to the fact that the music is a performance of an otherwise ancient piece of music. Also, although the video itself is but a slideshow, as a videographer I naturally respect Finn's efforts. Great job and keep it up. More power to the modders.

[Ludens]

Like I said, I don't particularly care about the music. It was the "troll" comment that I was reacting too.

[QuintusSertorius]

You would never ask EB's dev team to integrate modern hits into EBII, so why would you do the same for EB:NOM?

And no one is, what does this have to do with anything? As I said before, EB has good music, that's not "modern hits", just a modern take on ancient themes. You can make music with voice, drums and flute, in the style of ancient music, that sounds good to modern listeners. They achieved exactly that with EB.


I take Finn's word when it comes to the fact that the music is a performance of an otherwise ancient piece of music.

Which is completely irrelevant, because no one was disputing it's authenticity.


Like I said, I don't particularly care about the music. It was the "troll" comment that I was reacting too.

Precisely. I responded to being called a troll for having an opinion.

[Cute Wolf]

well, Finn has allready do a nice works with the preview videos, and the music is a good, authentic one. :thumbsup:

it's not about personal tastes, it was all about history :wink:

[plutoboyz]

actually, I like the music. particularly at the "Dooo doooo dooo" part.

keep up the good work finn!

[gamegeek2]

Though, among Greek music of the time it doesn't seem the best. The real thing I had with it was how loud it was...I guess it was that way, though, but it dominated the video.

[vartan]

Though, among Greek music of the time it doesn't seem the best. The real thing I had with it was how loud it was...I guess it was that way, though, but it dominated the video.
With regards to that, I'd be surprised if Finn was an audio specialist! I suspect no audio correction done during editing!

[Lionheart]

Well i'm sticking with the team.
One of the motives i love EB is about history.
And i believe that if EB:NOM will try to kept the spirit of EB the history and the music are both equal parts in importance.
If they will put iron maiden or something like i will not disgust that however i prefer ancient music i believe that brings one more close to the game.
Also music is both important in culture and history. ANd one of the main motives that give life to EB is culture and history right?
So you may find some sounds strange. However if in the future our grandchieldren and other will also think about our music and will feel that is strange. However she is part of our history right?

[QuintusSertorius]

Well i'm sticking with the team.
One of the motives i love EB is about history.
And i believe that if EB:NOM will try to kept the spirit of EB the history and the music are both equal parts in importance.
If they will put iron maiden or something like i will not disgust that however i prefer ancient music i believe that brings one more close to the game.
Also music is both important in culture and history. ANd one of the main motives that give life to EB is culture and history right?
So you may find some sounds strange. However if in the future our grandchieldren and other will also think about our music and will feel that is strange. However she is part of our history right?

Can we end this ridiculous straw man about putting in Iron Maiden or some other modern music? No one has been saying that.

EB has music which is inspired by, but not actual ancient music. It is good. The music in that video is actual ancient music, it is not good. Hopefully it won't actually appear in NOM, making most of this discussion moot.

[anubis88]

Well, i'm not really sure what's going on in the music department, but i don't think this song will be used for the game. Especially since there were mainly negative responses here. However, you could help us there Quintus - we are after all, always looking for help.

Find some songs that you think would make fine additions to a late era EB mod.

[vartan]

Well, i'm not really sure what's going on in the music department[...]
If, as mod leader, one truly is unaware of happenings in a certain department, the least he/she could do is not reveal this fact! I see the debate as between choosing to implement: 1) ancient music, 2) modern renditions or 3) both.

[anubis88]

If, as mod leader, one truly is unaware of happenings in a certain department, the least he/she could do is not reveal this fact! I see the debate as between choosing to implement: 1) ancient music, 2) modern renditions or 3) both.

Well, i'm aware of what's going on, but i won't decide on this subject, since other guys are working with the music. This will be a large mod, and i trust the other team members. Besides, gamegeek2 is very active in that department, so there's no need for me to but my nose in :clown:

[Finn MacCumhail]

QuintusSertorius, don't you think, that there is no difference, if it is Iron Maiden or modern view on ancient music? both are modern and far from what was popular then. Movie 300 is a good example of how to attract people to the history, with a touch of "modernization" to make more people like it.

At least I am an artist, and that is how I see the concept of my video.

[anubis88]

Guys... We need some help here... We are in desperate need of modelers and skinners; while Finn and LDC do a great job, once RL things kick in and they don't have time to work, our work on the units stops...

So we really need new modelers and/or skinners...

Does anyone volounteer?

[QuintusSertorius]

QuintusSertorius, don't you think, that there is no difference, if it is Iron Maiden or modern view on ancient music? both are modern and far from what was popular then. Movie 300 is a good example of how to attract people to the history, with a touch of "modernization" to make more people like it.

At least I am an artist, and that is how I see the concept of my video.

There is an absolutely huge difference between the two. If you don't see any, then frankly I have to question whether you have any sense of perspective or proportion on the matter.

300 isn't a modern take on history, it's Frank Miller's spin on a single story with little regard to historicity at all. HBO/BBC's Rome is more like a modern take on history.

Why does NOM need new music? What's wrong with the music you already have in EB?

[Lionheart]

Quintus about the Iron Maiden stuff i was given an exemple.
I like the music in EB. However i still defend that we could do something diferent.
My point was that music is also part of history. Like poetry, histories, philosophy and so on. All this is history. A cultural history but history in the end.

And if EB tried and achieved follow history in some way we to shall do that.
I'm not against modern songs: perhaps for celtic factions you could add some modern celtic songs with traditional instruments or something like that. In that case the modern and the ancient complete themselves.

[Moros]

The discussion is a little irrelephant and keeps us from telling what a great effort the team has done with it's latest preview.

OT: I'm surprised on how modern the ancient music sounded. But anyway great effort guys and a nice vid, Finn.

[QuintusSertorius]

Quintus about the Iron Maiden stuff i was given an exemple.
I like the music in EB. However i still defend that we could do something diferent.
My point was that music is also part of history. Like poetry, histories, philosophy and so on. All this is history. A cultural history but history in the end.

And if EB tried and achieved follow history in some way we to shall do that.
I'm not against modern songs: perhaps for celtic factions you could add some modern celtic songs with traditional instruments or something like that. In that case the modern and the ancient complete themselves.

There are already crunch-points and difficulties in the team. Why add further pressure by seeking new music when there's already perfectly service-able stuff in EB right now?

I don't see the need for actual modern songs at all, and I've never been arguing for them.

[Ludens]

This discussion is turning hostile. Please drop it and go back to discussing the rest of the mod.

It's entirely up to the modding team to decide what kind of music they include. If you do not like their choice it takes only a minute or so to restore the EB soundtrack, so I don't see much point to continuing the argument.

[Rahwana]

This discussion is turning hostile. Please drop it and go back to discussing the rest of the mod.

actually, that was an interesting discussions... I don't see the point of hostilities

[Lionheart]

I agree in that one Ludens. Let's drop the discution.

If the team in NOM will add some new soundtrack with would be the players of the mod that will choose what they like.
As said before you can always restore the EB soundtracks so that's no point in pursuing this discution.

About the mod perhaps some new surprises will come shortly. The surprises are for a faction already previewed but i think you would like that guys. When something is ready i will put that in here.

[Rahl]

Is it already clear that you use BI? I didn't follow the thread all the time so I'm not sure if you already decided that.
The new units look great and the later period makes it really interesting so maybe I will get BI when the mod is out...

One request, though I think you will reject it, would you be so nice and upload the model and skins for the machairaphoroi unit? I really want such a unit for EB to include it for hellenic powers in the later part of the campaign but there's no model in EB I really can use for them. I may be able to edit skins on a very low level but moddeling is something I don't have the time to learn...

[anubis88]

Hey Rahl...

EB NOM will use BI, that's for certain. We have some ideas on how to use the new engine, and we will implement them in-game, so you'll have to buy it to play EB NOM. But i don't think it's very expensive; it's less then 5 euros in my country...

Unfortunatly i can't upload the model and skins :(. First of all, they are all wip, and second, it's a slippery slope to allow people to use your stuff before the mod is realeased. Unfortunatly you'll just have to wait till it's released. But it will be worth it, don't worry :)

[jirisys]

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5170/5206367089_21d8d4e56f.jpg

~Jirisys (2D Artist)

[vartan]

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5170/5206367089_21d8d4e56f.jpg

~Jirisys (2D Artist)
You misspelled Pontos.

[plutoboyz]

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5170/5206367089_21d8d4e56f.jpg
~Jirisys (2D Artist)

You misspelled Pontos.

pwned!!!

[jirisys]

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5170/5206367089_21d8d4e56f.jpg

~Jirisys (2D Artist)


You misspelled Pontos.


pwned!!!





Βασίλειον του Πόντου - The kingdom of Pontus

The great Kingdom of Pontus...

Choose a letter or gt*o

Be less ambiguous and decide the ******* name

~Jirisys (De-Pwnd)

[vartan]

If you can read Greek, you'll see that it says the Kingdom of Pontos.

P.S. I don't think I need to say which people would call the Kingdom Pontus.

[jirisys]

Pontou, or Pontoi as people now would say

~Jirisys (The romans)

[anubis88]

Actually both ways of writing can be used; but since you pointed out the greek writing, i can tell you that "ou" reads as a "u" in Pontus in Ancient Greek, so Pontus is quite correct and jirisys did a good job.

To change the topic, there's another preview that's almost ready... It's being worked on by our member keravnos, who you guys might now as one of the historians from the EB team... Any thoughts of whom the new preview could be? If you guess (or if you are close), you'll get a present :clown:

[Arjos]

I hope in some barbaric faction, too much hellenism for my tastes XD

[gamegeek2]

I'm making this one too easy for you guys. But I can't help it...this faction is going to be awesome.

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/iudinf.jpg

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/lonchoiphoroi.jpg

[Arjos]

The shield makes quite clear is Judea, if I'm not much mistaken XD

[Lionheart]

You are right! It will be the Hasmoneans. I believe this faction will be a very interesting one. And for motives ingame i believe they will be a very enjoyful faction to play.

[jirisys]

Iadioi Taxeis...
Lonchoporoi Hippeis...

~Jirisys (Try not name then images as the units :wink:)

[anubis88]

Iadioi Taxeis...
Lonchoporoi Hippeis...

~Jirisys (Try not name then images as the units :wink:)

This time it wasn't the point for people to guess :laugh4:

I must admit i can't wait for the preview myself... I never knew the history of Judea BC was so interesting.

[jirisys]

This time it wasn't the point for people to guess :laugh4:

I must admit i can't wait for the preview myself... I never knew the history of Judea BC was so interesting.

Yes... Because Hannibal and Pyrrhos are plainly just other strategists

Besides, they had 4000 years to do history, greece only had 1000

~Jirisys (New treat for ya)

[bobbin]

Either is acceptable, "Pontus" is the Roman spelling while "Pontos" is the Greek. Although the Greek spelling would make more sense, as it was the main language spoken in the kingdom.

[jazstl]

The work goes perfectly...:pleased: And...Jeah...Please stop the music quarrels...
Not too much Helenism for me...:)


OT:Q:Anubuis88:
Bi te rad uprašal če si na Filozofski u lj.?
Si na Zgodovini al dvopredmetno al kej drugega...
Lp, oprosti da sm firbčen.

[anubis88]

Either is acceptable, "Pontus" is the Roman spelling while "Pontos" is the Greek. Although the Greek spelling would make more sense, as it was the main language spoken in the kingdom.

Indeed... It should be Pontos... I was just confused by the fact that what jirisys wrote was the genetive form -tou Pontou... and "ou" is read as "u" in ancient greek... My bad :clown:

[Finn MacCumhail]

To brighten up the preview waiting, small present. Though, you can proper see only famaliar Numidia units. Any ideas who is on the background?

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/RomeTW-BI2010-11-1614-31-06-37.jpg

[CaesarAugustus]

Perhaps some sort of "imitation legionary" units, as the Numidians were known to field around the time of Jugurtha... I cannot think of a proper name though. :huh:

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Perhaps some sort of "imitation legionary" units, as the Numidians were known to field around the time of Jugurtha... I cannot think of a proper name though. :huh:

That would be the foreground lol.

[anubis88]

Yeah, i think those guys in the foreground are plane Gaetuli Heavies... Not sure tough... It's the guys waaaay back that will be in the Hasmonean preview... Which is due any day/hour... :D

I think it's finished but keravnos likes to build expectations :clown: It will be avery large preview tough

[J.R.M]

Yeah, i think those guys in the foreground are plane Gaetuli Heavies... Not sure tough... It's the guys waaaay back that will be in the Hasmonean preview... Which is due any day/hour... :D

I think it's finished but keravnos likes to build expectations :clown: It will be avery large preview tough

Wow!........
AWESOME! The Hasmoneans will be DEFINITELY an interesting faction to play!

Cant wait for the preview.........

Thx for all you guys are doing btw.

[Finn MacCumhail]

one more tip, may be this can help? You should know this unit type from Pontos preview.

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/RomeTW-BI2010-11-1614-31-44-56.jpg

[QuintusSertorius]

Hasmonean Thureophoroi?

[jirisys]

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5168/5226470359_55f321a437.jpg

Corrected

~Jirisys (GIVE ME THE DETAILS!)

[Finn MacCumhail]

A heavier version of the Thureophoroi mentioned before, the Thureophoroi Bareis are strong medium infantry, used best as anti-cavalry units.

[keravnos]

https://img718.imageshack.us/img718/7439/nommamleketsymbol.png

Strategic situation of the Kingdom.

Haire Basileu.
I was asked to prepare a summary of the state of the Kingdom this day. I have to give a dire warning before everything else. We will soon need to make a choice.

First, the Ptolemaioi. After the disgraceful reign of Ptolemaios XI Alexandros II who married and ruled jointly with Berenike III before murdering her, the Ptolemaic Kingdom was in disarray. This murdering scum didn’t last long after that. I don’t know if you could call it divine justice, yet he only ruled for 19 days prior to being killed. Then Ptolemaios XII the Auletes as they call him started to reign. The lack of a male heir after the death of Ptolemaios XI meant that the only available male descendents of the Ptolemaios I lineage were the illegitimate sons of Ptolemy IX by an unknown Greek concubine, with the eldest, Ptolemaios XII becoming the king. He is known to be a weakling, self-indulgent man, a drunkard, and a music lover. If Ptolemaic Egypt was an independent state, then I ‘d advise invasion, if only to avenge the dead children that the Ptolemaioi soldiers killed and ate in the beginning of your reign. Still, we must always remember that the Ptolemaioi, for all the impressive façade you see, are nothing. They are the servants of the Romani, their subjects in everything but name. Be always mindful of the Romani. They are the overlords of the Ptolemaioi and if they would draw a line in the sand to fight against the Seleucids of the epikataratos (accursed) Antiochos IV, then they wouldn’t think twice before attacking us.

Then we have the Nabataioi. They are on the South and East. Now that the civil war is finally over, we can turn our attention towards the Nomad Arabs. Had it not been for the civil war we would have destroyed them already. In fact, they must be the first target for expansion because of their small numbers, not to mention that to get to the Ptolemaioi, we need to go through Nabataioi lands. Since they will not agree to that, we need to subjugate them, en route to Egypt and its wealth, if you agree that this is the direction we need to go. However, we must always remember that when in trouble, they will always ride their camels in the desert where we can’t pursue. Their present King, Arethas the third, is more interested in building a grand city for his kingdom, the one they call Petra, instead of fighting us. So far as our armies are concerned, we are better in infantry, while they are better in cavalry especially missile cav. Therefore prior to attacking them we need a missile cavalry of our own. Thankfully, our brothers in Babylon have learned the ways of horse archery from the Parthians and they along with some Parthians who elected to follow them will join our ranks very shortly.

Our Northern borders are a mess. We don’t know if we will be fighting the Seleucid remants or their Armenian Overlords. The Syrians, cowards that they are, offered the throne of their kingdom to Tigranes, who then conquered every part of the Seleucid remnant, other than a few cities who to this day recognize the Seleucid remnant, Seleukos VII Kybiosaktes for a King. Seeing that the Armenians are on the rise, it is wise to not attack them, at present. Their main strength seems to be on their imitation legions, their cataphracts and their armored horse archers.




Suggestions to the Basileus, based on the current strategic situation.

I don’t know if we can avoid conflict, not if we wish to remain an independent nation. If push comes to shove, we must have the vast resources of the Ptolemaioi. That’s the only way we can field enough armies to withstand the onslaught of the Romani, which we all know is coming sooner rather than later. Even if we are their friends and allies, like we are today, there is nothing for us in the future other than either complete subjugation or direct confrontation. If you elect to go that way, Basileu, than the only way to actually do that is to create Romani like troops with better weapons, if possible and to do that, only the vast resources of Egypt can allow us to do that. Remember, my King that one hundred and eight years ago, the Pharaoh of Egypt (that’s one of his titles, one that the native Egyptians call him by) sent Ptolemy had sent the Achaians "six thousand sets of bronze equipment for peltasts (hopla chalka peltastika)". That means six thousand helmets, armor, bronze greaves and bronze coated shields alongside six thousand long pikes for them to fight with. Can you see the power and wealth of their realm? Yet we managed to defeat the very force that had humbled them twice. The Seleucids of Antiochos 4 and his descendants. That should put to rest all the fears we might have of the Ptolemaioi, themselves. In fact it is only their overlords, the Romani we must tremble.
If we seek to attack Egypt, we need to destroy the Nabataioi first. That will be made easier with the acquisition of Horse Archers and other missile troops. Horse Archers will surely come in handy when dealing with the Ptolemaioi later. Should we manage that, we need to train and equip a big army able to withstand a Romani assault. Should we drive back the Romani, then we can invade Armenia, probably alongside Pontos, seeing that their kings are relatives and allies. After we have taken a significant part of Asia Minor, Basileu, we can turn our attention towards the Parthians or Pahlavan as they call themselves. We can use the Hellenic settlers of the Mesopotamia as allies alongside our own brothers living there. It is no secret that they loathe the Nomads rule over them. Using their own tactics against them, especially some Pahlavan innovations our spies have brought us, we can hope for a Kingdom to last the test of time.
Let’s be realistic. We have few chances of succeeding. Still, with unity and perseverance, we can accomplish a kingdom far greater than even Basileus David dreamt of. Besides, the only way to remain independent is to create an empire, as a kingdom like the one you currently rule Basileu, is just too small to remain independent. There is only one way we can go, and that is leading to either an Empire or to subjugation, death and destruction of EVERYTHING WE HOLD DEAR.
I have been to Epeiros, Basileu. It was destroyed by the Romani 86 years ago. 50 cities devastated, 150.000 slaves driven to Italia and Romani domains with most of them dying shortly after. It is now just cattle land. Goats and sheep graze where cities once stood. I hate to think of something like this happening here in Ierosolyma. So, we either become Romani vassals, that is to forget about our Kingdom and the only time we Jews were free after the destruction of Judah, or follow through on the road to Empire. Frankly Basileu, I see no other way.

Your humble servant,
Archisomatophylax Isaakios, son of Abramos


(Hellenized Jews used a “greekified” version of their Hebrew names.
Joseph became Iosippos or Josephus in its latinized version
Isaac became Isaakios
Abraham became Abramos
Eleazar became Eleazaros

Archisomatophylax- Chief Bodyguard, a title found in Ptolemaic Papyri, sure to have been used in a mostly Hellenized kingdom [so far as official titles were concerned] like Hasmonean Israel was.)

[keravnos]

INFANTRY of Mamleket haHashmonayim
https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Hasmonean.gif

Sphendonetai (Slingers)

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Slinger_Hasm.jpg

Keeping up with the times, it is important to use contemporary writers’ accounts for the EB NOM mod, specifically the Hellenistic tactical manuals of Asklepiodotos, Aelian and Arrian. Asklepiodotos especially, who was a student of Poseidoneios, whose work is lost, is thought to have lived at exactly the time that EB NOM starts in. Therefore it is important that we use the text that we have from that time in the best way to describe the fighting forces of the period. The Dead Sea Scrolls speaking of their contemporary or near past Hasmonean Army is one. While some fictitious elements have been introduced, probably by the religious zeal of the writers of the scrolls, a vast majority of the “War scroll” as it is known can be compared to what we know of the armies of the time and when shown through that light, provide accurate information. As a result a depiction of the Hashmonayim army can begin, and with that accurate depiction, the rest of the area can be accurately depicted as well. That’s why emphasis has been given on the “War Scroll” alongside Asklepiodotos and Aelian’s account. Aelian copied Asklepiodotos, writing around 100 CE, or they both copied the same manuscript, or so do critics of their work say
Asklepiodotos, however, wrote around 80 BCE so his work is much more important for EB NOM that starts then.
The Sphendonetai (slingers) of Hasmonean Israel are mentioned in the Dead Sea scrolls speaking for the “Sons of Light versus the Sons of darkness”. Here is the text from the site of Ueda-Sanson speaking about them.
“According to 1QM - 5.3-4 and 5.16-17, the infantry are organised in divisions 1000 men across, and 7 ranks/lines deep. Evidently, each such formation comprises the infantry complement of one of the four "camps", since we are told (1QM - 9.4) that the total number of infantry in the army is 28000. Each division is divided into three lines, apparently separated, at least at deployment, by a 30 cubit gap. The first line ordered into battle is comprised of 2 ranks/lines of slingers. They are to deliver seven volleys before they are ordered to retire and take their station on each flank of the formation.”
One of the few weapons against horse archers was the sling. The Jewish would use it to defeat heavier armed opponents at a very safe distance. It was the preferred missile weapon of the day as it had the longest range and that would get even longer with the usage of led bullet slingshots, an invention that some credit to Phillip the father of Alexander the Great. I think it was even older than that. Still, it did make for a formidable weapon and I think that there were many Jewish slingers serving as missile troops in the armies of the Hashmonayim, as a direct continuation of earlier use in the armies of Israel, Juda and the region in general. A sling is the preferred missile weapon of choice, well attuned to the realities of life in Israel, especially the southern part. It needs little to no wood for either the weapon itself or the missiles expended. That means a lot in a part of the country where wood or even bushes are very few and far between.


Toxotai (Archers)

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Toxotai_hasm.jpg
Toxotai (Archers)
Keeping up with the times, it is important to use contemporary writers’ accounts for the EB NOM mod, specifically the Hellenistic tactical manuals of Asklepiodotos, Aelian and Arrian. Asklepiodotos especially, who was a student of Poseidoneios, whose work is lost, is thought to have lived at exactly the time that EB NOM starts in. Therefore it is important that we use the text that we have from that time in the best way to describe the fighting forces of the period. The Dead Sea Scrolls speaking of their contemporary or near past Hasmonean Army is one. While some fictitious elements have been introduced, probably by the religious zeal of the writers of the scrolls, a vast majority of the “War scroll” as it is known can be compared to what we know of the armies of the time and when shown through that light, provide accurate information. As a result a depiction of the Hashmonayim army can begin, and with that accurate depiction, the rest of the area can be accurately depicted as well. That’s why emphasis has been given on the “War Scroll” alongside Asklepiodotos and Aelian’s account. Aelian copied Asklepiodotos, writing around 100 CE, or they both copied the same manuscript, or so do critics of their work say
Asklepiodotos, however, wrote around 80 BCE so his work is much more important for EB NOM that starts then.
Archery was very important in Jewish history as archers are mentioned many times in the Scriptures. From that point on, they are also mentioned in the scrolls of the Dead sea the ones concerning the “Sons of Light versus the Sons of darkness”. Even if they aren’t mentioned directly, in the notes of author Ueda-Sarson describing them is written that “The text is fragmentary, so that two ranks are not actually specified in any of the surviving texts. However, since 5 out of the 7 ranks in total are later accounted for by other troops, the slingers should comprise the remaining 2 ranks. However, given the position of a large lacuna in 1QM, it can not be ruled out that of these two ranks, only the second is of slingers and the first is instead of archers. Certainly infantry archers are mentioned in other sources describing Jewish forces”.
Along with the Slingers and the Euzonoi, their role was to fire away as many missiles as they possibly could (even if “Sons of Light versus the sons of Darkness” speaks of only 7 shots), realistically the number they were able to deliver couldn’t have been larger than that as they needed to be in short proximity to the enemy who was running toward them, in order to close up that distance without being hurt.
After the enemy closed in, they ‘d probably seep through the relaxed lines of the regular army who after they along with the slingers passed through closed ranks again. The Euzonoi wouldn’t go through the regular army like the Slingers and the Archers. It isn’t clear in the scrolls where they‘d go, they are only expected to join in the pursue of the enemy, once broken up and in full retreat. (More details on the Euzonoi definition). Before this happened, however, the archers would continue to let loose arrows at the enemy at an angle, shooting over the heads of the friendlies towards the enemy who attacked, killing them off as well as lowering their morale, before the rest of the army could drive them off.


Euzonoi (Javelin throwing elite skirmishers)

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Euzonoi-1.jpg
Euzonoi (Javelin throwing elite skirmishers)
Keeping up with the times, it is important to use contemporary writers’ accounts for the EB NOM mod, specifically the Hellenistic tactical manuals of Asklepiodotos, Aelian and Arrian. Asklepiodotos especially, who was a student of Poseidoneios, whose work is lost, is thought to have lived at exactly the time that EB NOM starts in. Therefore it is important that we use the text that we have from that time in the best way to describe the fighting forces of the period. The Dead Sea Scrolls speaking of their contemporary or near past Hasmonean Army is one. While some fictitious elements have been introduced, probably by the religious zeal of the writers of the scrolls, a vast majority of the “War scroll” as it is known can be compared to what we know of the armies of the time and when shown through that light, provide accurate information. As a result a depiction of the Hashmonayim army can begin, and with that accurate depiction, the rest of the area can be accurately depicted as well. That’s why emphasis has been given on the “War Scroll” alongside Asklepiodotos and Aelian’s account. Aelian copied Asklepiodotos, writing around 100 CE, or they both copied the same manuscript, or so do critics of their work say
Asklepiodotos, however, wrote around 80 BCE so his work is much more important for EB NOM that starts then.
The javelin throwers of Hasmonean Israel are also mentioned in the Dead Sea scrolls. Even though they are probably not the exact replicas of Hellenistic Euzonoi, they fight like Polybios' troops do "eis ton euzonon tropon kathoplismenoi (armed in the manner of euzonoi)". Here’s the text from the “Sons of Light versus the Sons of Darkness” describing them.
“The next line ordered forwards are 3 ranks/lines of javelinmen. The first rank is to hurl 7 javelins, then the second rank likewise, and then the third rank 7 more volleys, before they too are ordered to retire, though unlike the slingers they do not move to the flanks.”
Even if the number sounds too far fetched, from other sources Romani velites seem to have also carried around 5 to 7 javelins as Ueda-Sanson says. Once the final force, the “Men of the rule” armed with thureos and sword (probably Ioudaioi Spathaphoroi, Ekatontamachoi and Machairaphoroi) or with thureos and spear ( those probably were Ioudaioi Thorakitai, Thureophoroi Bareis and Makkabaioi Zelotai) broke the opposing army and they started to rout they were to join in hunting them down and killing them off. They are armed with an sword shaped like that of the Romani, although probably not so good. (Gladius Hispaniensis were probably using the best iron that existed at that time). They were expected to join in with the rest of the tactical troops in the pursuit of the enemy once it was routed.
Ueda-Sarson had this to say of their role in combat, “thureophoroi could replace their spear with javelins to operate in a peltast-like capacity. Such troops were then not called peltasts however, at least not by contemporary sources such as Polybios, since peltast meant a pikeman (or a hypaspist flank guard). When operating as light infantry, they were no longer heavy troops, but belonged to the class of troops known as euzonoi, or light infantry, a word that Polybios sometimes uses in a narrow sense to mean such re-armed troops rather than light infantry in general.
Rather confusing, still, we must deal with the fact that ancient writers used different terms for different things. A definition of one is different to the definition of others. That necessitates a large wall of text to try to determine the difference between each.
Returning to the Dead Sea Scrolls, when the enemy was near the Scroll mentions that the Archers and the Slingers would go through the enemy lines who would loosen up to let them through with the soldiers closing up ranks right behind them. The Euzonoi, however, wouldn’t go through the regular army like the Slingers and the Archers. It isn’t clear in the scrolls where they‘d go, they are only expected to join in the pursuit of the enemy, once broken up and in full retreat. It is possible therefore that they either joined in the fight (Other Hellenistic Euzonoi did exactly that, as the Achaian Euzonoi who in Polybios' account of the 3rd battle of Mantineia he refers to as being defeated along with the Tarantines in the front line, where they are supported by, but do not include, the Illyrians and the thorakitai according to Ueda-Sanson. That means that the Euzonoi fought alongside other front units like the Thorakitai. If the Euzonoi would fight in Mantineia, then it stands to reason that the tactics for their use suggested that they ‘d fight alongside their heavier armed brethren after having thrown all their javelins against the enemy. This in no way detracts from their role as “Akontistai” or javelinmen. Plutarch, when writing for the same battle reports that "Machanidas and his mercenaries beat the javelinmen (akontistas) and Tarantines whom Philopoimen had placed in front". This would indicate that the euzonoi of Polybios and the akontistas of Plutarch are one and the same, as per Ueda-Sarson.


Pantodapoi (Hellenic Native Spearmen)

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/hasm_panda.jpg

The most basic and numerous of the infantry units used by the non-European Successor States were the Pantodapoi infantry. These men were called from a variety of nationalities and were usually settled in certain areas for garrison duties and the like. There were Jews, Syrians, Cilicians, Persians, Assyrians, Native Egyptians, and many other peoples counted among their number. They are not particularly reliable soldiers, but they are certainly better than their eastern counterparts. They can give a good account of themselves in battle if deployed properly. They wear no armor, and have only a light shield for protection, so most other infantry will slaughter them in droves. They can fend off light cavalry for a time, if need be.

Historically, the Pantodapoi were a group of various nationalities that were used as a militia levy and defensive group for towns and villages prone to raiding. While the name is conceptual (meaning, from everywhere), they were a standard fighting force of the day. They were trained rudimentarily, but had enough training to be counted as superior to many militia levies. They had some experience fighting off nomadic raiders, so they can be useful against light troops and some light cavalry.

This is how the Hashmonayim viewed the Pantodapoi however,

Ioudaioi Epistratoi (Jewish Levy troops)

https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/hasm_panda.jpg
Ioudaioi Epistratoi (Jewish Levy troops)
They are the levy troops of the Hashmonayim, who have had some sort of informal training in the past and who would join in the regular army in times of danger, knowing full well that the existence of the Hashmonayim Israel depended on them. Individually they are weak. As a unit, however, they were strong enough to oust the dreaded Seleucids from Israel under the leadership of the Maccabees. It is imperative to remember that the embedded Rabbis in their ranks as well as their number (They are thought to have been around 24.000 at their peak to the 8.000 of the regular army forces) were sure to dent every enemy they would fight, especially the neighbours of Israel. Within them are the descendants of the fellow warriors who under the leadership of Mattathias Makkabaios threw out the Seleucid yoke, along with the few Jews who wanted to turn Jerusalem into a Hellenistic city and destroy the very concept of Monotheism. Had Jerusalem fallen into becoming yet another Hellenistic pagan city with syncretic and synthetic deities, how long would it take for the diaspora and every Jew inside or outside Israel to conclude that if they had just abandoned Judaism that their forefathers had died for, then they could as well starting a rippling “abandon everything” effect that its consequences are simply unfathomable. Even so, at this terrible hour, a rebel emerged out of a village in Israel, Mattathias Makkabaios, who faced the greatest empire of his region, underarmed and undermanned and won. Because of him and his sacrifice, along with thousands of troops who were as light armed as the Jewish levy troops and the Euzonoi, the archers and the slingers could Hashmonayim Israel emerge, a free nation for the first time since 586 BCE.
Their shield is wicker with a menorah emblem on it, copied from a coin of that period. Their spears are not as good as that of the regular army. One thing is certain though. Those troops are there to fight. If they are united they can do wonders as in direct contrast to the levy troops of other nations, they have a very high morale. They knew who they are, what their laws were and exactly what was expected of them. The single biggest problem of Hashmonayim Israel was that it was never unified. There were too many factions within pulling it apart. EB NOM gives an opportunity to see a Hashmonayim Israel emerge, without the crippling effect that the disunity between the King, his entourage and his mercs and the vast majority of the Rabbis and the rest of Israelis who were opposed in many of the King’s excesses and downright lawlessness.



Thureophoroi (Light Spearmen)

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Thureophoroi (Light Spearmen)
Keeping up with the times, it is important to use contemporary writers’ accounts for the EB NOM mod, specifically the Hellenistic tactical manuals of Asklepiodotos, Aelian and Arrian. Asklepiodotos especially, who was a student of Poseidoneios, whose work is lost, is thought to have lived at exactly the time that EB NOM starts in. Therefore it is important that we use the text that we have from that time in the best way to describe the fighting forces of the period. The Dead Sea Scrolls speaking of their contemporary or near past Hasmonean Army is one. While some fictitious elements have been introduced, probably by the religious zeal of the writers of the scrolls, a vast majority of the “War scroll” as it is known can be compared to what we know of the armies of the time and when shown through that light, provide accurate information. As a result a depiction of the Hashmonayim army can begin, and with that accurate depiction, the rest of the area can be accurately depicted as well. That’s why emphasis has been given on the “War Scroll” alongside Asklepiodotos and Aelian’s account. Aelian copied Asklepiodotos, writing around 100 CE, or they both copied the same manuscript, or so do critics of their work say
Asklepiodotos, however, wrote around 80 BCE so his work is much more important for EB NOM that starts then.
Thureophoroi are essentially a light version of a thureophoros (He who carries a door like shield, details forthcoming), without significant armor sacrificing protection for mobility. They are mentioned in the Dead Sea scrolls, even if without helmet and effort was made to keep as close to the historical evidence on how they would look like. Much of what they wear and how they are portrayed is based on finds of Stelai of a nearby city portraying Ptolemaic troops. The troops of the Hashmonayim weren’t all that different, especially when a big part of them were, like those of the Ptolemaioi, mercenaries.
Having said that, should Alexander Yannai ever institute a draft policy in his Kingdom, that’s how most of them would look like. His goal would have been to create a national army.
They probably looked like that in the time of Mattathias Makkabaios, the first of the Maccabees to take arms against the dreaded Seleucids and their force conversion to paganism efforts. In fact, there were bound to be a lot of helmets lying around after one of those Seleucid armies were destroyed.
There are various definitions for their name. One is that it comes from the Greek word of “door stop” stone. I am in complete disagreement to this. There are many known examples of Celts and Galtians carrying hunge thureoi close to the Scutum size or even larger at times. That’s what thureos shield took its name from. A "huge size, like a door" shield that or "shaped like a door" (as in the Liddle-Scott-Jones lexicon). Greeks at 279 BCE would use hoplitic shield or the smaller Macedonian shields –also called Peltastic shields by some historians of the time, some 63 cms in diameter-. Therefore to face a new enemy who would cover nearly all of his body in this way, using an oblong shield that effectively covered most of his body from his neck down to his knees or even lower was simply unheard of. This fact incited a revolution in shields and their use for the Greeks and all the Hellenistic kingdoms from Syracuse up to Baktria. The only way to describe such a shield was to give it a name of an everyday object that mostly reminded its shape and use. “Thureos” was that. Not only did it remind of a shape, it mostly described its function. It would seem like someone hiding behind a door, impenetrable, out of reach, impossible to beat, like someone who closes the door on you and you can’t reach him short of breaking into his house. When the Greeks compared that huge shield to their own puny ones, the peltai, that name makes sense, I think. There were of course different shapes of thureoi for different uses by different troop types. The word used for them however, that of a “door”, is exactly what the impression of the Celtic invasion of Greece at 279 BCE left for those unfortunate enough to face it. Even Livy (38.21) who describes the Galatians as having "insufficient protection from their shields, which were long, but not wide enough for the size of their bodies, and, besides that, were flat in surface", does so after comparing them to the scuta of the Romani, which are, in essence evolved thureoi, larger, more rectangular and curved in order to protect their owner.





Thureophoroi Bareis (Medium Spearmen)

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Thureophoroi Bareis (Medium Spearmen)
Keeping up with the times, it is important to use contemporary writers’ accounts for the EB NOM mod, specifically the Hellenistic tactical manuals of Asklepiodotos, Aelian and Arrian. Asklepiodotos especially, who was a student of Poseidoneios, whose work is lost, is thought to have lived at exactly the time that EB NOM starts in. Therefore it is important that we use the text that we have from that time in the best way to describe the fighting forces of the period. The Dead Sea Scrolls speaking of their contemporary or near past Hasmonean Army is one. While some fictitious elements have been introduced, probably by the religious zeal of the writers of the scrolls, a vast majority of the “War scroll” as it is known can be compared to what we know of the armies of the time and when shown through that light, provide accurate information. As a result a depiction of the Hashmonayim army can begin, and with that accurate depiction, the rest of the area can be accurately depicted as well. That’s why emphasis has been given on the “War Scroll” alongside Asklepiodotos and Aelian’s account. Aelian copied Asklepiodotos, writing around 100 CE, or they both copied the same manuscript, or so do critics of their work say
Asklepiodotos, however, wrote around 80 BCE so his work is much more important for EB NOM that starts then.
Thureophoroi Bareis along with the Ioudaioi Thorakitai and Makkabaioi Zelotai are the “Men of the rule” consisting of the last two infantry lines of the Jewish infantry as that is described in the Army of the Sons of light scroll found in eleven caves in and around the ruins of the ancient settlement of Qumran on the northwest shore of the Dead Sea.
This is the name we gave the thureophoroi who would also have an armor on, one of linen. We don’t know of the materials used, it is quite possible that different materials or cloths to linen were used as well and probably were, however the “linen” thorax was used to describe them all. Despite the sound of that a “linen” armor, linothorax as its proper name had been, was actually quite durable, if perishable with time taking more of a toll in it than enemy action. In fact the vast majority of those who had armor on wore linothorax. It’s just that bronze survived through time whereas linothorax didn’t. Those thureos carrying, linothorax clad spearmen are actually a step above the rest of the thureophoroi in that they have more money to arm themselves with or the Hashmonayim kingdom and other powers of the time actually trusted them more to arm them better. The reason for this is quite simple. They were the trusted soldiers/settlers that the Hashmonayim kings would settle in various parts of the Kingdom (mostly in the newly conquered, non Jewish regions) with the obligation to both subdue revolts in the newly acquired territories, yet they would always be on call, should the need to quickly gather the kings’ forces ever arise.



Thorakitai (Heavy Spearmen)

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Thorakitai (Heavy Spearmen)
Keeping up with the times, it is important to use contemporary writers’ accounts for the EB NOM mod, specifically the Hellenistic tactical manuals of Asklepiodotos, Aelian and Arrian. Asklepiodotos especially, who was a student of Poseidoneios, whose work is lost, is thought to have lived at exactly the time that EB NOM starts in. Therefore it is important that we use the text that we have from that time in the best way to describe the fighting forces of the period. The Dead Sea Scrolls speaking of their contemporary or near past Hasmonean Army is one. While some fictitious elements have been introduced, probably by the religious zeal of the writers of the scrolls, a vast majority of the “War scroll” as it is known can be compared to what we know of the armies of the time and when shown through that light, provide accurate information. As a result a depiction of the Hashmonayim army can begin, and with that accurate depiction, the rest of the area can be accurately depicted as well. That’s why emphasis has been given on the “War Scroll” alongside Asklepiodotos and Aelian’s account. Aelian copied Asklepiodotos, writing around 100 CE, or they both copied the same manuscript, or so do critics of their work say
Asklepiodotos, however, wrote around 80 BCE so his work is much more important for EB NOM that starts then.
Thorakitai along with the Thureophoroi Bareis and Makkabaioi Zelotai are the “Men of the rule” consisting of the last two infantry lines of the Jewish infantry as that is described in the Army of the Sons of light scroll found in eleven caves in and around the ruins of the ancient settlement of Qumran on the northwest shore of the Dead Sea. They carry a thureos oval shield which is according to the War Scroll was 115 X 69 centimeters, with their spear at 3.20 meters. The size could be higher or lower, according to what the length of the cubit was.
Effectively the best spearmen of the Hasmonean Kingdom, their armor is taken from a nearby frieze, found in Palmyra, that is indicative of what a lamellate thorax (the Lorica Lamellata of the Romans, made of metal lames or strips, laced together) of the time looked like. Their shield is a remake of one depicted from the Pergamene Seleucid trophies depicted in the Pergamon agora, currently located in Berlin Archeological museum. Depictions of thorakitai include the tombstone of Salmas of Adada found in Sidon, variously date from the late 3rd century BC to the middle 2nd BC, showing a man carrying a spear wearing a mail shirt in addition to carrying his spear (seven other thureophoroi from the same site are unarmoured). They would wear a new iron helmet to the bronze of yore. There are excrepts from Syracuse as well as from mainland Greece about phalanxes training with thureoi and spear as if they would with the round aspis and spear. This in turn means that the Thorakitai would fight in very dense formations identical to a hoplitic phallanx, with the only difference of a thureos being in place instead of a rounded aspis shield.
However, it is prudent to suggest that alongside this “shieldwall” tactic (as it would be called later), the thorakitai and thureophoroi would definitely practice and fight in the new manipular style that the Romani brought forth, which was developed by their own arch enemies, the Samnites precisely to break the hoplitic phallanx that the Greek settlers in S. Italy (and the archaic Romani) had used. Whether successful or not is difficult to say, however the army manuals suggest that such tactics were used. Greek military thinking of the time, however, revolved around phalanxes, which is why Philopoemen of the Achaian league made his soldiers drop their thureoi for a pure pike phallanx like that of Macedonians.
This however is 80 BCE. Macedonia and Achaian League are long in the past along with the tactics they used. Therefore the most reasonable hypothesis is that the thorakitai and thureophoroi would fight using the manipular formation, with a provision made for them to close ranks and fight with spears in “shieldwall” which is what the Romani did in many cases themselves. In fact the only real difference that the Hellenistic style troops of 80 BCE and the Romani had, would be the insistence of the former to still use the spear instead of the gladius hispaniensis. To counter that, they created units that only fought with sword and to be better than the Romani they tried to fight them with longer swords.



Machairaphoroi

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Machairaphoroi. (Curve sword-bearers)
Keeping up with the times, it is important to use contemporary writers’ accounts for the EB NOM mod, specifically the Hellenistic tactical manuals of Asklepiodotos, Aelian and Arrian. Asklepiodotos especially, who was a student of Poseidoneios, whose work is lost, is thought to have lived at exactly the time that EB NOM starts in. Therefore it is important that we use the text that we have from that time in the best way to describe the fighting forces of the period. The Dead Sea Scrolls speaking of their contemporary or near past Hasmonean Army is one. While some fictitious elements have been introduced, probably by the religious zeal of the writers of the scrolls, a vast majority of the “War scroll” as it is known can be compared to what we know of the armies of the time and when shown through that light, provide accurate information. As a result a depiction of the Hashmonayim army can begin, and with that accurate depiction, the rest of the area can be accurately depicted as well. That’s why emphasis has been given on the “War Scroll” alongside Asklepiodotos and Aelian’s account. Aelian copied Asklepiodotos, writing around 100 CE, or they both copied the same manuscript, or so do critics of their work say
Asklepiodotos, however, wrote around 80 BCE so his work is much more important for EB NOM that starts then.
They are first mentioned in Ptolemaic papyri as “elite sword fighting troops”. Their main difference with other Hashmonayim units is that they would use the Hellenistic machaira sword in stead of the celtic one. The curvy slasher machaira sword and its primary use over the spear that was the preferred primary weapon of all Hellenistic armies was their weapon of choice. There were few differences between them and the Spathaphoroi, the main one being of origin. There are few depictions of them. Ueda-Sarson says “The most notable is the Kampyr terracotta from Bactria showing a soldier wearing a cuirasse, carrying a thureos and wielding a sword. Sekunda interprets the figure, likely dating from 170 BC to 145 BC at the latest, as an imitation legionary; it seems much more likely it is simply a thorakitai using his sword rather than his spear”. There is a major disagreement here. First, there are other depictions showing thureos carrying troops fighting with sword first, second was that to have a soldier depicted; he’d probably want to be depicted with the prime weapon he’d go to war with, not with his sidearm, so to speak. To have sword armed thureos carrying troops, means that those troops fought with sword. Romani influence, here too, it seems.
The Machairaphoroi probably had few to little Germanics or Celtics in their ranks, whereas Spathaphoroi would have a large contingent of Hellenized Celts in them, who wouldn’t fight alongside their brethren “Of the Epigones” or of the (same) descent. They would march to battle in a Roman pattern, fight using the manipular system of the Romani, even if they ‘d probably call those maniples “speires” as their leader would probably be well versed in Hellenistic army terminology and would probably speak Greek well as a result. However, even if Spathaphoroi had a lot of foreigner mercs among them, Machairaphoroi were either Hashmonayim Jews or Ptolemaic Jews who returned in their homeland to fight alongside their brothers against the various enemies of the Hashmonayim Israel. An interesting concept to consider is whether they had any relation to the Sicarii mentioned in Josephus. Sica was a curved knife/sword that the gladiators used. To call someone a sicarii for the Romans would be to speak of someone who used a curved sword. However there can also be a relation between the Latinized word Askar meaning soldiers in Semitic-Arabic and the Sicarii mentioned in Josephus. Considered to have been terrorists at that time, the Sicarii fought long and hard against Romani rule and everyone they associated with it. There is absolutely no way to know for sure whether the Machairaphoroi who were elite curve sword troops either Israeli Jewish or Jewish of the Diaspora could have any relation whatsoever to the terrorists described by Josephus below.
“A different type of bandits sprang up in Jersualem, the so-called sicarii, who murdered men in broad daylight in the heart of the city. Especially during the festivals they would mingle with the crowd, carrying short daggers concealed under their clothing, with which they stabbed their enemies. Then when they fell, the murderers would join in the cries of indignation and, through this plausible behavior, avoided discovery.”
Whether the descendants of the Machairaphoroi could do those things in the name of a free and sovereign Israeli state, I don’t know. It’s something for the historians and archeologists to ponder over.



Makkabaioi Zelotai (Maccabean Zelots)

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They are mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls and that’s exactly how they were portrayed. Wearing an armor (a scale one as historical finds in the area have shown) yet without a helmet to protect them, as per the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Romans called it Lorica squamata, made of iron or bronze scales on a fabric backing. They carry a thureos shield exactly like the one shown in the paintings of Dura Europos’ synagogue. Even if the painting is some hundred years after the Hasmonean Kingdom, the thureoi they portray are the single surviving pictorial piece showing Judean soldiers protected by thureoi shields marching to battle. Of them, some have helmets, some don’t.
Why this is the case is probably down to cultural reasons than anything else. Most of the troops of the Hellenistic world went to battle with bronze or iron helmets, even if they didn’t wear armor, the troops described in the Dead Sea scrolls went with armor but no helmets.
They probably were the richer among the descendants of the Maccabee Rebel troops, with the poorer becoming the Ioudaioi Epistratoi, or the Jewish levy troops. They would probably be a lot more observant in their everyday practices than the rest of the Jewish troops, trying to preserve with war what they so adhered to in peace. They would probably be descendants of those who actually took part in the rebellion and entrance to that select troop would be for only those who actually were descendants of those who fought and died in the war of Independence.



IDorkim 'Edomim (Idumaean Infantry)

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Idoumaioi akontistai (Idoumean Skirmishers)
They seem to have been part of the Idumeans, a small people living in the side of what is now Israel. They were famous mercs, who fought for anyone who would pay for them. They fought for the Seleucids, then when Maccabees destroyed Seleucid presence in the proximity of Israel, they turned to fight for them. Later they would fight for the Romani as well, forming some auxiliary archer and light infantry detachments. They weren’t alone. As Ueda-Sarson notes, “Appian talks of these "peltasts from... Crete, Tralles and Cilicia, armed after the Cretan fashion"; likewise Livy records "1000 newly enlisted Cretans, 1500 Carians and Cilicians similarly armed"; the parallels are clear. What is this Cretan fashion of armament? Monumental evidence shows Cretans with javelin/small spear plus a small shield, and Polybios decsribes the Cretans at 10.29.6 as armed with small shields (Kretas aspidiotas).”
What’s different about those Idumeans is the fact that they were around and they were in large numbers and that they would probably work for whomever paid them. All those attributes were favorable to the Hashmonayim who bought their services. The most famous of the is Herod, who took over once the Hashmonayim fell to the most dreaded fault of Royalty, that of turning a brother against brother and destroying even the state for the sake of an empty throne.
Their loyalty to the state of the Hashmonayim seems to have landed them eligibility to settle in the various cities that Hashmonayim Israel founded in newly conquered and non-Jewish areas. A lot of them did convert to Judaism, many however didn’t, nor was it required of them. In EB NOM, Itureans would forgo primary use of their spear for a short sword, which was fast becoming the norm in all armies of the period due to the unmatched superiority of the manipular system that the Romani fought with. In fact, after the Marian reforms, even in Roman armies the spear was abandoned entirely. Only the gladius hispaniensis was used, along with the pillae that would hurt or kill enough of their enemies. Therefore it makes sense to suggest that most armies in the region at that time did the same.



Sebastenoi (Jewish Legionnaires)

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Sebastenoi (Jewish Legionnaires)
A Herodian formation, modeled after a Roman Legion, numbering in the 3.000, they would either be carrying a gladius hispaniensis in battle or just a spear that they would or could fight with. They would be those who followed Herod’s legitimate heir, who was largely disliked, Archelaos, along with some other infantry, when everyone else of the rest of the army joined the Rebels.
The spear was chosen instead seeing that we have a great many of sword carrying units and the fact that the Roman style infantry would also fight with spears. They would be constantly trained all year round, and their position in battle must have been similar to that of the Triarii. The reserves put forth at the right time to win the battle.
Trained and ready to fight like a typical Romani legion, with Roman officers and most likely many Roman veterans too, as we know that many Romans after serving in the Legions would travel all over the Mediterranean and serve in other realms, either as troopers or more likely as non coms, since their hard earned experience was a commodity very much sought after.




Spathaphoroi (Swordmen)

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Spathaphoroi (Swordmen)
Keeping up with the times, it is important to use contemporary writers’ accounts for the EB NOM mod, specifically the Hellenistic tactical manuals of Asklepiodotos, Aelian and Arrian. Asklepiodotos especially, who was a student of Poseidoneios, whose work is lost, is thought to have lived at exactly the time that EB NOM starts in. Therefore it is important that we use the text that we have from that time in the best way to describe the fighting forces of the period. The Dead Sea Scrolls speaking of their contemporary or near past Hasmonean Army is one. While some fictitious elements have been introduced, probably by the religious zeal of the writers of the scrolls, a vast majority of the “War scroll” as it is known can be compared to what we know of the armies of the time and when shown through that light, provide accurate information. As a result a depiction of the Hashmonayim army can begin, and with that accurate depiction, the rest of the area can be accurately depicted as well. That’s why emphasis has been given on the “War Scroll” alongside Asklepiodotos and Aelian’s account. Aelian copied Asklepiodotos, writing around 100 CE, or they both copied the same manuscript, or so do critics of their work say
Asklepiodotos, however, wrote around 80 BCE so his work is much more important for EB NOM that starts then.
Spathaphoroi were an innovation of the time, when everything was tried to overcome the Romani might. One way was to study those who had beaten them. Theodor Mommsen a German historian describes their arms “the large sword was retained and the long narrow shield, along with which they probably wore also a coat of mail.” Two Germanic peoples had managed to inflict to Roma a bodycount of 150.000 people at the cost of being completely eliminated. The Galatians and Celts serving in Hellenistic armies would often yield such swords and archeology has provided a beautiful specimen found in present day Israel. Therefore we know that there were troops fighting using a thureos shield along with a celtic longsword. The vast majority of them were either Celts from Gaul or Galatians or even what they called “Celts of the descent” or in Koine Greek of the time “Keltoi tes epigones”. Like nations do today, after a war all the lessons learnt were analyzed by the military of all nations then their results were put to use. Thus we have the Spathaphoroi, wielding a large sword, a long narrow shield along with a coat of mail. Every military of the region needed all the help they could possibly get in order to fight against the Romani. A sensible rationale to have at that time must have been that if our army can stand up to the Romani, they can beat everyone else.
Roma initiated the Marian reforms in response to the Cimbri defeats, meaning that for those who joined the Roman army (who also had to carry all their gear along, earning the nickname “Marian mules”, drilling and training took place all year round, not just when they were urgently needed. A fully professional army developed in response, one that would earn Roma an empire.
Spathaphoroi had a mixed armament. They wore the coat of mail and the long celtic sword that both the Celts of the time as well as the Kimbri and Teutones of the Cimbric invasions had. Their units must have had a lot of celts and possibly even some Germans serving there as well, (A Germanic bodyguard alongside a Celtic and a Thracian one is attested in the funeral of Herod).





Ioudaioi Ekatontamachoi (Jewish Hundred fighters)

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Ioudaioi Ekatontamachoi (Jewish Hundred fighters)
Josephus in his “Jewish Antiquities” writes of them, being led by Alexandros Ionathan (Alexander Yannai), “He had, moreover, eight thousand front-line fighters, whom he called "hundred-fighters," carrying long shields covered with bronze.”. An effort was made to remain true to the exact meaning of that. They faced the Ptolemaic troops of Ptolemaios Lathyros in combat. Even if they lost, they still fought hard initially winning. They are definitely historical. Some may doubt the historicity of their bronze coated thureos. Well, I respectfully disagree. Influences tend to go both ways in history. While the Celts gave Greeks the Thureos, after their onslaught in 278 BCE (or environs) in Delphi, the Greeks changed it to their own liking in certain areas. Bronze coated round aspis shields influenced the plain wood surface thureoi shields that became bronze coated thureoi shields.
There are excrepts from Syracuse as well as from mainland Greece about phalanxes training with thureoi and spear as if they would with the round aspis and spear. That’s how I perceive the thureoi phallanx to have been like. That’s probably one way that the Thorakitai and Thureophoroi fought, alongside the manipular way. This (the thureos carrying spearmen shieldwall) wasn’t the case here, however. I believe that Alexandros Ionathan (Alexander Yannai) had his troops fight with swords and “long shields” meaning the thureoi, the Roman way, with swords and maniples (called Speirai in greek) utilizing the Romani prowess to break up the Ptolemaic invaders, like the Romani did earlier against Seleucids, Macedonians (both times) and the Achaian League. He was initially successful. It was only trickery that saw Ptolemaios Lathyros gain victory.
Ekatontamachoi are very versatile troops, ready to fight and win against superior forces, because of their own heavy armor, with Iron muscle thorax covered by a bronze coated thureos. Armed with a sword bigger than a gladius they stand ready to fight against anyone. They were among the best troops fielded by the Hashmonayim.



Ioudaioi Doryphoroi (Jewish Royal Foot Bodyguards)

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Ioudaioi Doryphoroi (Jewish Royal Foot Bodyguards)
The unit is mentioned in the funerary procession of Herod the Great. This unit probably consisted of young men from the best families of the kingdom and distinguished veteran soldiers. The term probably meant the foot guards of the King and a special unit among the Jewish army along the tradition of the Hypaspistai of Megas Alexandros and the Peltastai of the Antigonids, meaning an elite round shielded force of spearmen who were trusted with the most difficult missions available.
It is very important to note that the elite forces of every realm at that time did went through a change from the Hellenistic fighting system (that of pikes and cavalry, hammer and anvil style) to that free flowing manipular style favored by the Romani. Still, it is also important to remember that there are always those who simply resist change because their role hasn’t yet been taken over by a new changed unit. One of those probably were the Ioudaioi Doryphoroi because their own role, to charge in the thick of battle and turn it around probably survived the demise of the pike phalanx, whose flanks they were supposed to guard. They are the hypaspistai of the Hashmonayim Israel, a unit of Israel’s class, who would be the Peltastai of the last Hellenistic kingdoms, a unit that used similar pre-pressed shields measuring up to 75 cm’s in diameter.
Their role was to serve either as the Jewish bodyguard of the King or to attack at a specific pressure point and in doing so, break the enemy up. It is possible that the sons of high ranking courtiers of the Hashmonayim served there. If the structure of the Hellenistic kingdoms was kept, they would be the Royal foot bodyguard with the Agema Hippeon Ioudaion being the Horse bodyguard. From them would the leaders of Hashmonayim Israel emerge, including the bodyguards of the king (Somatophylakes) and their own leader the “chief” bodyguard (Archisomatophylax).
Alas, the time when a brave soldier could advance from the levy to the Archisomatophylax level seem to have been long past. It was this attitude that allowed Hashmonayim Israel to counter foes much larger in size and wealth, the one that led to the current elite being formed. Hopefully the same trend will restart in the future and that is paramount if the Hashmonayim are to have a cadre of officers who are the best there are.

[keravnos]

CAVALRY of Mamleket haHashmonayim
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Kataphraktoi (Cataphracts)

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Kataphraktoi (Cataphracts)
Kataphracts are the most armored cavalry of the period, possibly ever. They are affectionately called “Catatanks” and it is easy to see why. We must remember, however that the road to a fully armored horseman was long. A Kataphract didn't just happen, he evolved into being. The horsemen of the Steppes are credited with the invention of the “Kataphraktos” and with good reason. There were two kinds of horsemen in the Steppes. Horse archers and Lancers (who chased horse archers). The obvious target for archery, Lancers would need to be very armored in order to defend against the horse archers as well as other Lancers. Therefore they armed themselves in the best way that they could upgrading their equipment as newer techniques and materials became available. First they would arm themselves using scales for the full body of the horseman (as funerary evidence shows) then lamellae. The first mention of lamellate overlapping ring like guards for the hands and legs come from the”Hippika” of Xenophon when he advises that the horseman wears them (the “cheires” or overlapping ring lamellate bronze hand guards) in the hand that holds the reigns of the horse to protect it. The Massagetai that Megas Alexandros fought seem to have been wearing them, fielding proto cataphracts. Then the next major confrontation occurred during Antiochos III anabasis, when he fought and won a battle against 10.000 Baktrian horsemen, some of them must have been Kataphraktoi. That is shown in the next major battle of Antiochos III of the Seleucids, in Panion where nearly 1/3 of his mounted troops were Cataphracts. Then in Magnesia, nearly all his heavy horse were Cataphracts. Later on, much fewer were cataphracts as the force of the Seleucid state waned. Horse archers and Lonchophoroi were the norm, with Cataphracts forming a strong core of horsemen who would engage the enemy and fight them off until they broke, using blunt force weapons, aka sphyra (pickaxe), axes, maces and others that would harm their opponents no matter their armor.
The probably Baktrian and later Seleucid contribution was the facemask, that earlier adorned Phrygian helmets, now became the norm as the face tended to be the target for many of the strokes that a cavalryman might receive. The horse was lightly armored and it was only later that full protection was worn for the horse as well, even if there are mentions of a Ptolemaic horse entering a rebel town to subdue it, with the first line of those horsemens' stallions clad in a padded cloth armor that was intended to reduce blunt force strokes.
We know that Massagetai, Pahlavan (the Parthians), Bactrians and Seleucids fielded Cataphracts. We also know that a big part of the surviving Seleucid Cataphracts after Magnesia became part of the Pergamon's army. It is known that after Pompey dissolved whatever remained of the Seleucid kingdom, now largely a part of present day Syria, their cataphracts asked to join the Roman army and were accepted. Therefore it is only logical to deduce that an emergent Hashmonayim state would deffinitely field Cataphracts, if they would conquer the regions they came from. Therefore they have them, exactly like the Armenians, who at 80 BCE owned former Seleucid lands fielded them, much like anyone at that time with enough money to do so, did.





Babylonioi Hippotoxotai (Babylonian Horsearchers)

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Babylonioi Hippotoxotai (Babylonian Horsearchers)
They are the horse archers of Zamaris, one of the few precisely identified units of Herod, the military settlers (or Katoikoi) of Batanea ( Josephus AJ XVII, 24-26). They probably fought exactly like Parthians did. One of the Parthian Horse Archers way of fighting was the infamous Parthian shot, meaning that they “would feign retreat; then, while at a full gallop, turn their bodies back to shoot at the pursuing enemy. The maneuver required superb equestrian skills, since the rider's hands were occupied by his bow. As the stirrup had not been invented at the time of the Parthians, the rider relied solely on pressure from his legs to guide his horse” as defined in Wikipedia. Even though this way of fighting had been a mainstay of Horse Archers for hundreds of years, it was when the Romans met the prevailing Horse Archers of the time, the Parthians, that the name stuck. The Parthian shot, along with the Cantabrian circle was probably what they used mostly when fighting against sedentary opposition, like Arrian mentions when Alexander the Great fought against the Scythians (Probably the “Sakai” as they called themselves) “The Scythians met the challenge: their numbers were for the moment superior; they made circles round the small attacking force, shooting as they rode, then galloped off to a safe distance.” Arrian, Alexandrou Anabasis, 4.4.6-7. There is enough literary evidence to suggest that the correct way to interpret this is that they rode in a cantabrian way shooting against their opponents who were simply trying to ward off their missiles, not riding in circles around them, in agreement with Ueda-Sarson.
Asklepiodotos calls “Scythians” the horse archers, probably following an earlier name of them. The Ioudaioi Hippotoxotai weapons were probably armed with composite bow and the sword. They were quite unique among the rest of the troops of Herod. Knowing how the Jews of Mesopotamia returned to Israel during the Hashmonayim period, we can safely deduce that there probably were more that joined the ranks of the Hashmonayim, mainly because, so far as we can tell, one of the main adversaries of them, the Nabatu were using a lot of horse archers and camel archers, exactly as the Seleucids themselves did. Therefore it is safe to think that the Hasmoneans had to find Horsearchers themselves. One source would be the same horsearchers who fought for the Nabatu, Iturean mercs and others who would have the skills to effectively “shoot from the hip”. The very name “Skythopolis”, contemporary Beit She' an seems to suggest that some “Skythai” or Scythians were located there. From what has been shown earlier “Scythians” was a different name used for horse archers, exactly as “Tarentines” was used for javelin throwing horsemen. Therefore, they either were scythian horse archers who were settled there as cavalry Kleruchs, or horse archers mercenaries from throughout the area who did. The very fact that Herod did exactly the same with the Babylonian Horse Archers, settling them in frontier land outside of mainland Israel, in Transjordan, in order to pacify that region. Whether they were of native Scythian extraction, meaning from Central Asia or elsewhere is not known, however both the Babylonian Jews of Zamaris were a unified force that came from Babylon just as the Alans later on were settled from the Romans near border regions in Scotland and elsewhere to provide a cavalry force and help pacify those regions as well. Common background seem to have played a major role in unit cohesion in those times. Not many however, would undergo such a trip, unless forced to, just like the Romans did with the Alans/Sarmatians later on. Therefore I think that the Babylonian Jew Horsearcher of Zamaris were probably descendants of the Jews who were forcibly resettled on Babylon after the destruction of the first temple in 586 BCE, who themselves remained Jews and adopted the fighting methods of the Pahlavan. They would return to Hashmonayim Israel and take arms to defend Israel. Zamaris men must have been the ones we know of, there were deffinitely others earlier to do exactly that.


Tarantinoi Elaphroi (Tarentine skirmishers)

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Tarantinoi Elaphroi (Tarentine skirmishers)
According to Asklepiodotos I. 3, they are the Tarantines who after throwing their javelins at the enemy, proceed to attack with swords, rather than retreat. They are those called “Elaphroi”, meaning light, probably in contrast to Lonchophoroi, Agema and Kataphraktoi, who were the heavy cavalry.
The tactical use of them, according to the most contemporary writer of the time we know of, Asklepiodotos is the following: “Asklepiodotos VII-I “Exactly as the skirmishers, so are the horsemen placed according to what the needs are, especially so those kalled “Akrobolistai”-literally those who shoot from the sides or ends [either left end or right end] of the battle formation. (He calls earlier in his manual in I.3 akrobolistai the horsemen who are in between the pure missile cav and the pure melee (heavy) cav. They are those who either throw javelins or shoot arrows and after close in to engage in melee combat with the enemy and their name “Akrobolistai” means that they never lose contact with the sides while shooting at the enemy at the same time). They are very able to deliver the first blows to the enemy, provoke the enemy to fight, breaking the cohesion and battle line of enemy troops, investigate suspect and dangerous locations where the enemy could lie in ambush and even ambush the enemy themselves, prepare the battle (according to earlier orders obviously) and relieve the infantry wherever possible. In concluding, because of their speed and versality they are able to move throughout the whole battlefield, achieving significant results.
It seems like while earlier Tarentines were mostly just throwing missles then retreat to allow the heavy cavalry to charge, the later Tarentinoi troops were becoming more and more “elaphroi” meaning light cavalry in use. The fact that Athens at that time didn't have any other horse commander other than the “Tarantinarchos” seems that either those Tarantinoi just threw javelins and left or they would fight as well. As Ueda Sarson mentions, according to Polybios' account of the 3rd battle of Mantineia (11.12.7) over a hundred years later, the Tarantines serving Philopoimon the Achaian were ordered to engage the Tarantines serving Machanidas the Spartan who in turn ordered his to counterattack ( here 'synapheinai'; the word seems to have no particular connotation of charging into contact). Polybios goes on to relate (11.13.1-2) that "at first the Tarantines alone were engaged, fighting gallently, but as the light-armed infantry (euzonoi) gradually came up to the support of those who were hard pressed, in quite a short time the mercenaries on both sides were mixed up.
Therefore it seems that by 80 BCE the vast majority of the Tarantinoi were elaphroi, for light cav. Athens could not have just missile cav, and the 3rd battle of Mantineia that we have an account of shows Tarentines battleing in melee for both Achaian League and the Spartans. Seeing from the Asklepiodotos excrept that one of their duties in battle was to support infantry wherever needed, then it is safe to deduce that Tarantinoi Elaphroi were the vast majority of the Tarantinoi.




Tarantinoi Hippeis. (Tarentine javelineers)

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Tarantinoi Hippeis. (Tarentine javelineers)
According to Ueda Sarson quoting Diodoros, they served Antigonos “the one eyed” in his campaigns against Eumenes (19.29.2) mentioned as having "come up with him from the sea" (ie. with Antigonos from the Mediterranean). Later on in the battle at Gabene, they were instrumental in turning the sides against Eumenes when they conquered the camp of Eumenes, effectively making his own soldiers turn him over so that they keep their baggage and wages. Antigonos' son Demetrios used Tarantines in Greece (Polyainos 3.7.1). Strabo (6.3.4) mentions that when at its most powerful, ca. 450-350 BC, Tarantum could field 3000 horsemen and 1000 hipparchoi, literally "horse rulers" and thus used in the sense of "cavalry commanders". As 1000 cavalry generals is clearly nonsense, Duncan Head in his Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars interprets these as heavy cavalry, an account that seems to be accurate. Unfortunately, the ancient writers that we know of that wrote today, wrote about something they didn’t clearly understand, following old military manuals of the day, from generals who had served in different armies of the Hellenistic era. Each army could very well have their own military terminology and in attempting to ameliorate those, confusion arose that persists to this day. Hopefully comparative analysis of all available sources will allow the correct order of battle and the accurate hierarchy to be established.
Tarentines early on specialized on being 'experts in wheeling and retreating'. However, the provision of a shield both heavy and large is not normally a feature of skirmishing cavalry, so it may be that such men were also expected to be able to engage in close combat. This is not the case for the “pure” Tarantinoi, as Aelian calls them. They are expected only to shoot and then retreat. It is the Elaphroi (meaning light probably in contrast to the heavy cavalry of the day) that go ahead and engage in melee combat. Their use in 80 BCE was in retreat. They are mentioned as the only cavalry force of Athens prior to its destruction by Sulla, with one “Tarantinarchos” (leader of Tarentines) as their leader. These must have been Elaphroi, however, as in battles that we know of, they fought in melee.
Staying with the definitions of the most contemporary military writer of the time, Asklepiodotos I, 3 “Other (horsemen) are those who just shoot from afar, those are the ones called “Tarantinoi” ”. They weren't supposed to engage in close combat. That was job for the (Tarantinoi) Elaphroi.



Lonchophoroi (Lancers)

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Lonchophoroi (Lancers)
Lonchophoroi are Lancers, however, it was only recently that Lonche, their arm was used instead of longer spears. Until recently, lonche had been a throwing spear, with “kontos” or “short pike” (in relation to the longer sarissa of the cavalry) being their primary weapon. They could also be called “Doratophoroi” or “Xystophoroi” and in fact that is how they are named in Asklepiodotos. Those who are described by that definition, in Asklepiodotos’ text however, are more alike the Kataphraktoi then the Lonchophoroi. This is another case of different units being called another thing by different authors most of whom simply copy what they see in a papyrus scroll before them without having first hand knowledge and experience in military matters of the time. To us, who can’t know firsthand what did happen things are even more difficult. Pictorial evidence, however, speaks of a different unit altogether, one with shorter spear, a large hoplitic shield and thorax for the horseman, not the horse. Their spear is much shorter than the kontos, therefore it was called a lonche and those carrying it Lonchophoroi. They are considered to have replaced the Hetairoi in the final years of Macedonian Kingdom. In relation to the Hetairoi they carry a smaller lance (now called Lonche, smaller than Kontos that itself was smaller than a sarissa pike) and a shield on the hand that holds the leash fastened near the elbow. Their shields while lighter than those of the hoplites of yore are still able to provide protection for the Lonchophoroi. They have fought in Magnesia as well as in later battles. One of the final cavalry types of the late Hellenistic years, some of them seem to have become the Lanciarii or the Cavalry auxilia of the Romani.





Hippotoxotai (Horsearchers)

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Hippotoxotai (Horsearchers)
They were horse archers who according to Ueda Sarson, in the later Hellenistic period, from 147 and up to 80 BCE that EB NOM starts in, made up for an increasing part of the cavalry. In Seleucid cavalry especially, they seemed to make up 1200 of the 12000 Seleucid cavalry in Magnesia. In 147 BCE, in the much weakened Seleucid empire, due to the huge indemnities they forced to pay to the Romani and the loss of both Anatolian and their Eastern provinces, the cavalry had been reduced to 3000 horse, which included 1000 horse archers ( 1 Macabees, 10.79-89). From other sources of the period we know that those who served in the horse archers of the Seleucids included Baktrians, Dahae and Parthians. Knowing that the horse archers themselves were generically called “Scythians” and a city in present day Northern Israel is called Scythopolis, it is safe to conclude that some or many of them were actually horse archers settled to keep the peace in the region, settled there. In fact it is not difficult to deduce that some of the 1000 horse archers that are mentioned in the Macabees were based in there. Knowing that this land was later part of Hashmonayim Israel means that they probably fought for the Hashmonayim, being a large part of the cavalry that made Alexandros Ionathan expand his kingdom early on. The horse archers of the time were probably a big part of every Hellenistic kingdom that could field them in enough numbers, however it was a difficult skill to muster, that either meant learning from an early age or constant training to hone their skills and maintain their ability for war. To have a city that was in essence their base and training ground made sense then, just as a dedicated war training program for a specific and specialized arm within an army does now. Skythopolis was probably one of them. Coins and other depictions of them from that time show them as clad in decidedly Hellenistic war gear, wearing either a bronze armor or linothorax while carrying a scythian composite bow, riding an unarmored horse.
The tactical use of them, according to the most contemporary writer of the time we know of, Asklepiodotos is the following: “Asklepiodotos VII-I “Exactly as the skirmishers, so are the horsemen placed according to what the needs are, especially so those kalled “Akrobolistai”-literally those who shoot from the sides or ends [either left end or right end] of the battle formation. (He calls earlier in his manual in I.3 akrobolistai the horsemen who are in between the pure missile cav and the pure melee cavalry (heavy cav)). "They are those who either throw javelins or shoot arrows and after close in to engage in melee combat with the enemy and their name “Akrobolistai” means that they never lose contact with the sides while shooting at the enemy at the same time). They are very able to deliver the first blows to the enemy, provoke the enemy to fight, breaking the cohesion and battle line of enemy troops, investigate suspect and dangerous locations where the enemy could lie in ambush and even ambush the enemy themselves, prepare the battle (according to earlier orders obviously) and relieve the infantry wherever possible. In concluding, because of their speed and versatility they are able to move throughout the whole battlefield, achieving significant results.”




Agema Ippeon (Royal Horse Bodyguards)

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Agema Ippeon (Royal Horse Bodyguards)
How has the language simplified. Earlier on they would have been called Agema Hippeon. It is 80 BCE however the date that EB NOM starts in, not 280. The millions of non native speakers of Greek have changed the language so much that even 2000 years later and as much as the language evolved, that's the Greek that now exist and how native Greek speak it. Exactly like the late Hellenistic era.
The Agema Ippeon are the best, most trusted Lonchophoroi whose main purpose is to guard their King with their lives. They stem from the richest and most loyal families of the kingdom, those rich enough to afford a horse, an armor and a shield, complimented by veteran Lonchophoroi whose value has been tested in combat along with trusted Diaspora horsemen. The name probably given to them would be “Basilike ile” for Royal squadron or the “Peri ten aulen hippeis” for “Horsemen of the court”. They would number in the 500 and would follow the king wherever he would go. They were among the most trusted men in the kingdom, so far as the King was concerned and would even cajole and joke with him, as they probably were raised alongside the king. They were always ready for war and would follow the king in campaign. They would probably be commanded by a “Hipparchos” who would train them at all times, especially since, if Macedonian tactics were used, they would be the King's horse, with the rest of the cavalry being called only in extreme emergencies. In case of dire emergency they just might be the only cavalry to fight as even the other cavalry on call might take some time to get the news and mobilize. Along with the Elite Royal Foot regiments they would form the “Royal squadron”, consisting of both Horse and Foot, where the most trusted and able men of the kingdom served. Most, were part of the ruling elite of the Kingdom, with a minor number being promoted in their places because of gallantry shown in the field of Honor.
Along with the Lonchophoroi and the Kataphraktoi they were the heavy horse of the realm. They belong in the first category of the Asklepiodotos' cavalry distinctions, three classes, those who fight in close proximity with the enemy, being the first. Asklepiodotos 1.3 “The Horsemen of the first class are clad in heavy armor both them and their horses, while the spears that they use are very long, which is why the cavalry is called “Doratophoron” or “Xystophoron”.


The king who they were sworn to defend until death, Alexander Yannai

Alexandros Ianneos, Alexander Yannai, Alexandros Ionathan, Alexander Jannaeus, Alexander Jonathan, however you want to call him, he was one of the greatest kings of Israel. Why? Well, it was during his reign that Hasmonean Israel reached the maximum extent. (Hasmonean or Hashmonayim in Hebrew is the name given by the Talmud to the Macabee Kings, descendants of Mathew Maccabeus, who successfully rebelled against the Seleucid rule of his homeland Israel during the reign of Antiochos IV. Alexander Yannai is compared to Biblical Kings like David and Solomon. The Hasmoneans before him had to contend with the title of “Ethnarch” or “National Leader” of the Jews, with the Seleucid Rulers holding a void, yet titular sovereignty over Israel. Alexandros Ionathan was the first to not have that title even just in paper. He was from the beginning both King and High Priest. However, he isn’t above criticism. His sacrilege in the Temple led to 6.000 dead Israelites who rebelled, playing into his hands. During a civil war that followed he is said to have crucified 800 of his own countrymen, among the 50.000 dead in a civil war during 6 years of bloodshed, according to some historians’ views.

A brief synopsis of the Jewish world at the time.

Hasmonean Israel was divided, with a third side, the Essenes, much smaller in numbers. On one side were the Hellenized Jews who were -for all intent and purposes- at home either at Jerusalem or in Alexandria and any city of the Hellenistic orient and on the other side were the vast majority of the Rabbis who were conservatively adhering to the scriptures exactly as they had been given to them. To give the two side names the Sadducees were the Hellenized rich minority with the Rabbis and the vast majority of the lower temple priesthood being their conservative opposition. Those would be the Pharisees. Hashmonayim Kings tried to play each side against the other in order to acquire or retain the throne. However, the realities of their day and age meant that only the Sadducees could effectively govern the state, because the Hasmonean state was a Hellenistic one in exactly the same sense that Pontos was a Hellenistic state or other minor states at the time used the Hellenistic system of governance. The Maccabee revolt succeeded in thwarting for ever the effort made by Antiochos IV and some Jewish sympathizers of his to effectively destroy Israel, however maintaining an effective state meant that a big part of the Jewish Hellenized officials would retain their place, therefore to rule effectively a Hasmonean King would have to rely on the Saducees, or a big part thereof.
The Jewish diaspora, was very much Hellenized as well, even if they were staunch and unwavering in their support of Israel. A lot of the wealth of the Hasmonean state was attributed to the Diaspora Jewry sending money home, including the expenses the Diaspora Jews would pay following the tradition to visit the Temple thrice per year. The third side mentioned in Josephus, (even if much smaller in numbers than the other two) were the Essenes and other very religious groups who would later start a Rebellion against Roma. They were very difficult to work with, because of their single minded devotion to only serve the LORD, not a ruler of this world. Josephus writes that there were thousands of them living all over Israel. They lived an ascetic life and according to some ancient writers renounced marriage, while others deny that pointing to the graves of women and children in places where they resided. They are believed to have written the “Dead Sea Scrolls” discovered in 1946.

Alexandros Ionathan favored the Saducees over the Pharisees (who never forgave him), he did fight against every enemy that Israel had, conquering lands which were never again part of Israel until 1967. It was the drain from those wars that drove many of his subjects to revolt against him, as a small agrarian country like Hasmonean Israel couldn’t hope to support a large army. Especially an army with many mercs embedded within. It was also the fact that he was both King and Cohen Gadol (High Priest of the Temple) that was considered false. Not to mention the levirate marriage with his brother’s widow, Salome Alexandra or Shlomtzion.
Still, despite heavy criticism and a civil war waged against him, despite his viciousness (which was the norm in his time, if a king was to retain his crown), there was a limit to how far he could go, because of the looming presence of Roma, a power which was going to destroy the temple 146 years after the end of his reign. He could only go so far, before the Romani military machine fell upon him and his kingdom.
There are many actions he took, that we can’t truly explain. Still, we must take into account the time he lived in. He lived in a time when nothing was sacred. A time when kings looted temples at a whim, they were paranoid that they might lose their throne and relied heavily on personal alliances to retain them. Let’s try to look at the environment of the Hashmonayim kings and array that into a proper historical perspective. The rebellion started when Seleucid Antiochos IV tried to rededicate the Temple to worship of Zeus (I Makk. 1:54) and tried to steal money from the Temple (I Macc. 1:20-24). It is also mentioned that Antiochos issued an edict in which Jewish religious practices were forbidden (I Makk.1:41). Several stories about Syrian mismanagement in general are related in both Books of Maccabees. According to jewishmag.com, quoting II Makk. 4:7-8, the conservative Jewish population of the time was very shocked to see the rich Hellenized Jews of the time practicing naked in the Gymnasium (The word in ancient Greek means “where they are (training) naked” and that’s exactly how the athletes of antiquity trained). To add insult to injury the title of Cohen Gadol (High priest) of the time was bought and sold in the courts of the Syrian King (that’s how the Seleucids were known at the time) in a bidding contest between the richest Jewish families The clergy of the temple especially the lower clergy had little toleration for such acts. Their best (Judah Macabee and his followers) started the rebellion, in order to save Israel, not because they didn’t share in the wealth of the richest, as a certain historian perspective suggests. They kept on fighting and won despite the overwhelming numbers of the Seleucid war machine. If they had fought just for money, then the Seleucid Syrians would just buy them off. That would be cheaper. I am sure the Syrians tried to do just that.
It is very easy to judge negatively Alexander Yannai after so much time has passed. Still, it must be done. I think that a valid criticism would be that he should have taken into account the religious obligation that his office required or even relinquish the High Priesthood. (David, nor Solomon, nor any other king of the united Kingdom or Judah had ever taken that title). To his defense what he did was common practice among the Hellenistic monarchies of the time, even in states that weren’t greek to begin with, only Hellenistic in the way of governance (like Pontos or Kappadokia or others). Some might even suggest that Hasmonean kings did that to stop the bribing process of the title of Cohen Gadol which was the norm and even to ensure that the title, even more prestigious than the King of Israel in the eyes of the vast majority of Israelis at the time, could not be used against them, for fear of a Cohen Gadol becoming a king maker, indirectly influencing who would rule Hasmonean Israel. Looking at the history of the Hashmonayim, when brother fought against brother, we must allow for some paranoid “they ‘re all out to get me” mentality. So far as Antiochos IV trying to confiscate all the wealth of the Temple is concerned, his father Antiochos III was killed trying to do the same in a pagan worship site in Media in order to pay for the reparations to the Romani after losing to them and the Pergamenes in Magnesia at 190 BCE. This was, according to the historians of that time the magnitude of opposition that the Jews were up against.
Therefore, knowledge of Alexandros Ionathans’ life and actions must be provided alongside that of his time and peers, in order to fully understand whether he was a great king who tried to keep his country united at any cost, (even if he could do better) within the limitations of the Hellenistic governing system he was born in, or a bloody power crazy tyrant who would slay his own people at a whim. Volumes could be written for any single incident of his rule, I only tried to provide a starting point based on my own knowledge of history, and the historical context he lived in.
However, Alexandros Ionathan’s (as he would probably be called in Greek) greatest failure was that he couldn’t unite his people. He managed to keep his country united at the cost of deepening the division within his people. Difficult as the effort might have been, this should have been his top priority. A united Israel could reach the historical boundaries of Davids’ Kingdom or expand even more. He could have united Israel if he had just retained his crown, focus on that area and instead of killing his own people, arm them and lead them against their enemies, exactly like David had done.
That may sound as an exercise in futility, knowing exactly what Roma could do or even worse what it was capable of (demonstrated with the destruction of the Temple, the enslavement and displacement of hundreds of thousands of Jews, the refoundation of Jerusalem with a different name, even the disappearance of the Biblical names of Judaea, Samaria and even Israel, for a term which was NEVER before used for the region, Palaestina.).
Even so, the only state in the region powerful enough in numbers and strong enough in morale to take on the might of the Romani were the Hasmonean Jews. Rabbis embedded into army units created a religious fervor which allowed the Israelites to fight with relentless rage and enthusiasm. It is worth remembering that during the Macabee revolt, Kohanim, priests in the Temple, led the revolt that created the Hasmonean state. Rabbis leading untrained troops against seasoned veterans under trained officers and the Rabbis won. Judah Macabee himself was a Kohen, and the third son of Rabbi Mattathias. Luke Ueda Sarson writes “Indeed, the 1st century BC historian Diodoros went so far as to say that such a combination of religious and secular offices in the same men that has made the Jewish state so “incredibly powerful”. Half of 600.000 residents of Alexandria at the time were Jews. A big number of Jews resided in almost all of the coastal cities of the Levant and Asia Minor’s southern coast. A lot were still living in Mesopotamia, those who didn’t return after Cyrus’ edict. Those would be readily available to join a conquering Hasmonean army. A Hasmonean king who could create a national army (not just a merc. force), could easily invade and occupy Egypt (Ptolemaic control at that point was nearly non existent – they existed only because of Roman intervention.). It is worth noting that Ptolemaic Egypt was twice defeated by Antiochos IV and once by Antiochos III. Hasmonayim Jews defeated the Seleucids. Therefore it can be easily suggested that had Alexandros Ionathan united his people, he could invade Ptolemaic Egypt at the risk, of course, of bringing down on him the Romani, exactly like Antiochos IV did. If he took that calculated risk then the Hashmonayim could use the riches of Egypt (and its 33.333 villages according to historians of the time) to create strong legions and fight Roma using Roman weapons and tactics (exactly what Josephus wanted to do during the revolt of 66 CE), with the added fervor that the Israelites demonstrated in both Jewish-Roman wars and Bar Kohba’s revolt. If the Jews were united, there is no telling what they could have achieved. If.
Can you go where Alexandros Ionathan didn’t? Can you unite your kingdom, conquer Egypt, Levant, Mesopotamia and Asia Minor? Will you be strong enough to face the Romani?



Why the Hashmonayim?



Before finishing this preview, I have to explain in the best way that I can, why are the Hashmonayim important. In fact, I would like to explain why they are (along with the Romani) probably the most important factions of EB:NOM. Well, to my mind they are even more important than the Romani, yet I accept that this is my own opinion.

I think the best way to do that is to answer point by point to a rant by a fellow member of EB and colleague of mine. I respect his work immensely even if I completely disagree with his reasoning and opinion. We look at the same historical facts from completely different angles him and I. He supports the Seleucids, I support everyone who fought them.

Therefore I post his text in its entirety, then try to answer paragraph after paragraph, before closing with my own opinion. I have to warn you, this will probably take a while.



I was going to respond to this thread much, much earlier, but two things got in the way: the first is that the ORG went down; the second is that I'm a bit worried being labeled "pro-Seleucid" is a nice way of saying anti-Semitic. I was just want to make it clear that that is certainly not the case; however, having studied history, I take a much more even-handed approach and viewpoint. Also, not being religious, I don't have the ties to the topic that maybe some people do. Furthermore, it is important to remember that, when I stated that the Maccabees definitely do not have the makings of a "hero" faction, I mentioned that the world is not black & white. Essentially, I said that the situation is full of grays - i.e. I am not simply favoring one over the other. However, it is true that I am critical of the Maccabees - especially regarding the hypocrisy on their part once they gained their independence.

Generally, people tend to portray Antiochos IV as some raving lunatic - especially due to Jewish accounts. I think a little bit of inquiry will show otherwise (see Sekunda's note in his appendix in Hellenistic Infantry Reform...). It is also critical to remember that the initial movements toward Hellenization of Jerusalem was begun by the Jews; not Antiochos. Essentially, it was new kids vs. old guard with the former petitioning a change in the status of Jerusalem to a polis, which occurred. This meant that the old charter with which the Jews struck with Antiochos III granting certain rights (exemption from certain taxes, etc) and limitations became defunct, which the old guard didn't like. So what happened?

Well, the old guard didn't like this, did some very nasty things to the new kids, and rebelled. So here, we see the rebellion begun not because of pressure by Antiochos IV, but because of internal conflicts within the Jerusalem.

Now, if you're a ruler and one of your cities revolts, what do you do? Well, back in the old days, you put it down and you put it down hard. The response to the Maccabees' revolt was no different than what anyone else would have received had they done the same. And, honestly, the Jews should be lucky that they didn't revolt when Alexander was around, because if they did we would still be looking for Jerusalem. The main exception is from Antiochos' attempts to establish a cult of Zeus in Jerusalem as he was doing all across the empire to try and cement it.

This, as we know (at least from a modern viewpoint) is not cool. I, however, understand why Antiochos would do such a thing and why it made sense to him. Every fucking religion has a sky-father archetype. Syncretism was so popular back in the day that it made sense to extend a cult of Zeus across the empire for unity. We now know that it isn't always so simple and so banning the Jewish religion (something Antiochos IV only really did in Jerusalem itself) didn't go over so well. Lesson learned: forcing religion down someone's throat is a faux pas.

So what did the Jews do once they gained their freedom? The same damn thing! Their government was corrupt and as they expanded they forced conversions as well as the occasional massacre. That doesn't sound very heroic to me.

So yeah, maybe it isn't PC to claim that a group of people fighting for religious freedom is far from heroic. But hey, that would be ignoring the ugly side of history. And as to my abrasiveness when this initially came up, why wouldn't it be? I, for one, am tired of seeing this topic and about the only thing that hasn't come up has been a request for Jews in lorica segmentata.

So, conclusion:
Antiochos IV's reaction to a revolting populace was no different from what anyone else's response would have been until he banned the religion (the question is, how many would then level the same critique against the Romans and their response to the druids?).

The Maccabees do not have the making of a heroic faction. The initiated a revolt and did it with brutality, and upon getting independence, they did the same damn thing they were fighting against.


Let me now try to answer point by point in Abou’s comments.



I was going to respond to this thread much, much earlier, but two things got in the way: the first is that the ORG went down; the second is that I'm a bit worried being labeled "pro-Seleucid" is a nice way of saying anti-Semitic. I was just want to make it clear that that is certainly not the case; however, having studied history, I take a much more even-handed approach and viewpoint. Also, not being religious, I don't have the ties to the topic that maybe some people do. Furthermore, it is important to remember that, when I stated that the Maccabees definitely do not have the makings of a "hero" faction, I mentioned that the world is not black & white. Essentially, I said that the situation is full of grays - i.e. I am not simply favoring one over the other. However, it is true that I am critical of the Maccabees - especially regarding the hypocrisy on their part once they gained their independence.


Well, it all comes down to this. Is the survival of Israel good or not. I believe with every fiber of my being that Israel has been the light of the world and it still is. That is irrespective of whether one is religious or not. So far as even handed approach and viewpoint, I think this is from the Seleucid fan viewpoint, an empire which just survived for 140 years before sinking more rapidly than Titanic. I do believe that the world isn’t black or white, still Maccabees white is whiter than you can possibly imagine, or at least that is what I believe. Hypocrisy on the part of Maccabeans once they got their independence, becoming the Hashmonayim is absolutely wrong. They tried to govern Israel trying to reconcile two completely different things, especially at that time, Hellenism and Judaism. They had to rule like a Hellenistic Monarchy, since that was the only way things were done, in those days (Nabatu did the same and so did every monarchy in the region, even as far as Indus, please consider that an IndoSaka general of the same time as the Hasmoneans called himself, Stratagos and that was in India of all places). Trying to reconcile those two, created insurmountable problems for the Hashmonayim, at the same time when Roma’s rise meant that they were always on borrowed time, before Roma turned them to vassals (like everyone else near or around them).


Generally, people tend to portray Antiochos IV as some raving lunatic - especially due to Jewish accounts. I think a little bit of inquiry will show otherwise (see Sekunda's note in his appendix in Hellenistic Infantry Reform...). It is also critical to remember that the initial movements toward Hellenization of Jerusalem was begun by the Jews; not Antiochos. Essentially, it was new kids vs. old guard with the former petitioning a change in the status of Jerusalem to a polis, which occurred. This meant that the old charter with which the Jews struck with Antiochos III granting certain rights (exemption from certain taxes, etc) and limitations became defunct, which the old guard didn't like. So what happened?

Well, the old guard didn't like this, did some very nasty things to the new kids, and rebelled. So here, we see the rebellion begun not because of pressure by Antiochos IV, but because of internal conflicts within the Jerusalem.


It is the same old story, really. The 4th crusade, the single greatest tragedy for ERE or Byzantium was caused by an usurper of the throne who managed single handedly to turn the 4th crusade from attacking Alexandria and the Abbasids into Konstantinoupolis. The fact that a Jew summoned Antiochos IV and he answered is the same as the responsibility that hangs over the heads of the leaders of the 4th crusade. They both should have listened but done nothing, calling it an internal matter, something that they shouldn’t interfere with. They did and in the end it had devastating effects for their descendants.
So far as the initial efforts at hellenization of Jerusalem were concerned, especially the new kids vs the old guard, and the change of status of Jerusalem to a Polis, this is just politicking. They wanted to oust to old, and to do that, those Jews devised a stratagem to call Ierosolyma a polis and everything that this entailed (Hellenic theater, gymnasium etc- just look at the ruins of a Dekapolis city (Jerash and others) to see what those Jews had wanted to do.) That this meant that Antiochos III grants to the Jews became defunct meant that the “new kids” wanted to completely change the old way of doing things to their own. Effectively they tried using a “polis” status to stage a coup and change everything, Judaism included. I believe that in effect they wanted to get rid of Judaism altogether and slowly turn it into a pagan idol worshipping one. THAT’s what it was all about. Ancient Jews and some modern ones cared more about their religion than they did for their lives. This had nothing to do with politics and everything to do with survival. Those Maccabees knew that if Judaism fell, Israel was next. If Judaism fell in Jerusalem, it would probably fall in Diaspora as well, with only Beta Israel being protected because of the isolation that Beta Israel existed in. That’s the internal conflict right there: That some Jews wanted office and glory at the expense of Judaism. They wanted to be just like everybody else at the time, gain money and fame at the expense of selling out their heritage, or at least that’s how I perceive it.


Now, if you're a ruler and one of your cities revolts, what do you do? Well, back in the old days, you put it down and you put it down hard. The response to the Maccabees' revolt was no different than what anyone else would have received had they done the same. And, honestly, the Jews should be lucky that they didn't revolt when Alexander was around, because if they did we would still be looking for Jerusalem. The main exception is from Antiochos' attempts to establish a cult of Zeus in Jerusalem as he was doing all across the empire to try and cement it.


The revolt had to be put down, if his kingdom was to survive. His failure to do so, along with the capture of Mesopotamia in the 120’s effectively meant that Syria was finished. Still, Jews didn’t revolt against Antiochos III nor did they revolt against Alexandros III otherwise known as the Great. Why? Because they both tolerated their religion and made sure that Jews were respected and treated with respect, they were in fact considered Greeks in Alexandria and everywhere else they chose to settle. That’s it. Antiochos IV tried to forcibly convert an entire people (starting from Jerusalem) and failed miserably to a bunch of unequipped, untrained Rabbis and their followers.
Antiochos’ attempt to establish a cult of Zeus in Jerusalem was part and parcel of the whole deal. He wouldn’t have changed the Cohen Gadol (High Priest) of the temple if he hadn’t found someone who was willing to turn a blind eye to the efforts he made to promote the worship of Zeus.
Let’s start from the beginning. Antiochos IV, having spent a lot of time being a prisoner of Roma had seen first hand what made Roma tick. He tried to emulate the same in his kingdom, once his father passed away. One of the things he tried was to promote gladiatorial combat in his Kingdom as well as gladiator vs beast spectacles. He failed miserably because the populace favored the horse races. Then he tried to create imitation Legionaires in a way to slowly turn his army into a Romani one. Then he tried a variety of measures to homogenize his kingdom, including the Daphne parade, which was in all intents and purposes a giant propaganda feature (much like Kim jong Il of N. Korea does this day). All his efforts failed. He used his “glittering” army against Parthians and died fighting them without achieving anything.


This, as we know (at least from a modern viewpoint) is not cool. I, however, understand why Antiochos would do such a thing and why it made sense to him. Every fucking religion has a sky-father archetype. Syncretism was so popular back in the day that it made sense to extend a cult of Zeus across the empire for unity. We now know that it isn't always so simple and so banning the Jewish religion (something Antiochos IV only really did in Jerusalem itself) didn't go over so well. Lesson learned: forcing religion down someone's throat is a faux pas.


Syncretism was the norm of the day, I agree. Antiochos tried to do what he did because in his mind, nobody would really mind. Because he himself didn’t believe in anything other than force of arms or money or a combination thereof, he never could realize exactly what the driving force was in the resistance of the Israelis to his armies, or how motivated the Jews of that time became when the scriptures were read to them. He thought that a few painted statures, some miracle workers (using newly developed mechanical devices- there was even an engineer specialty called “Thaumatopoios” meaning “miracle worker” according to the definitions of Pappos some centuries later), dances and pretty women were all it would take for a people to abandon a religion that was with them since before 1000 BCE, when David founded Jerusalem. So far as Antiochos IV trying to ban the Jewish religion had he managed to do so in Jerusalem, then the rest of Israel could have followed suit. Because if the temple would be turned into a Pagan cult site without a fight, then the other parts of Israel might conclude that there was nothing to fight for, that every part of the scriptures and the struggles of the Israelites against every other people in their land, the exodus from Egypt, Joshuas’ reconquering of Cannan, the Judges and the Kings were all for naught. Then they might stop believing altogether. In that case, they could have abandoned Judaism. Then our world would have been completely different today and that for the worst, of this I am sure. The weird part of this situation was that Antiochos IV who didn’t really believe in God (he thought of himself as one so why believing in gods when he thought he saw one in the mirror) tried to ban the religion of the Jews who believed in God and still do.


So what did the Jews do once they gained their freedom? The same damn thing! Their government was corrupt and as they expanded they forced conversions as well as the occasional massacre. That doesn't sound very heroic to me.


Well, the Jews didn’t have a kingdom of their own ever since the destruction of Judah and Jerusalem and the first temple. Ever since then they were someone elses’ territory, never their own. It is true that the Hasmoneans converted some of the neighboring tribes to Judaism (Edom comes to mind), still they were enemies of Biblical times. To convert them meant that they ‘d be enemies no more. Besides, let’s be realistic here. For every pagan converted to Judaism back then, 100 or more Jews were force converted to other religions from that point on and up to now. If their government was corrupt, in the Hashmonayim time, that was because every government back then was corrupt and because every government has the potential of being corrupt. The massacres you speak of were committed by kings who wanted to keep Hasmonean Israel undivided. Not that I agree with their actions, it’s just that they did live on bloody times when the only lesson or punishment was swift (or not so swift) death.

So far as the Hasmonayim being heroic, well, consider this. They didn’t fight the Seleucid Syrians when they were on their waning days, they fought them in their second greatest era, under Antiochos IV who conquered twice Ptolemaic Egypt and would have kept it, had it not been for the Romani. A bunch of unarmored and untrained farmers and shepherds against the might of probably the greatest empire of the Mediterranean and mideast at that time. (Roma wasn’t a kingdom and was allied to the Maccabees/Hashmonayim from early on.) They won. That’s pretty heroic to me.


So yeah, maybe it isn't PC to claim that a group of people fighting for religious freedom is far from heroic. But hey, that would be ignoring the ugly side of history. And as to my abrasiveness when this initially came up, why wouldn't it be? I, for one, am tired of seeing this topic and about the only thing that hasn't come up has been a request for Jews in lorica segmentata.


I do understand that attributing everything to Religion can be tiring, still how logic is it for a small underhanded, unarmored, underarmed band of rebles to throw of the yoke of an empire? If you attribute that to blind chance, then I have to disagree with you. Let’s just say that this victory of a small band of rebels led to the world we live in and leave it at that.



So, conclusion:
Antiochos IV's reaction to a revolting populace was no different from what anyone else's response would have been until he banned the religion (the question is, how many would then level the same critique against the Romans and their response to the druids?).


Jews never sacrificed tens or hundreds of people to gain the favor of a tree or a grove.
Antiochos IV’s response was what would be expected at that time and if he stayed at that he might have actually succeeded at putting down the revolt. When he tried to ban Judaism, however, he not only lost Israel, he started down the road which led to the downfall of his empire. For if the other satrapies of the Seleucid Empire saw that the Jews had done it, then that was something that they should try, that the Seleucid Empire was on its road to demise. Once enough satrapies rebelled and gained independence, Seleucid Syria really began falling.


The Maccabees do not have the making of a heroic faction. The initiated a revolt and did it with brutality, and upon getting independence, they did the same damn thing they were fighting against.


The Maccabees are the definition of heroic. They had to rebel otherwise they would have lost everything they held sacred. So far as the Macabees being brutal, I don’t know if you can be a rebel leader or fighter by being courteous, gentle, polite and with manners. Upon getting independence they tried to form a state according to the situation on the ground at that time, using the Hellenistic way of organizing and running a state. It wasn’t the best, still, that’s all they had, that’s all they could do at that time. For your information, that’s how the Romani ran those areas when they conquered them. They left the Hellenistic system of governance in place, they just put some Romans on top. They didn’t even change the language or the administrative titles, or the clerks working there. The Hashmonayim Jews even if they did form armies that mercs were a major part, were nothing like the Seleucid Syrians.


Christianity and Islam, two religions that 2.2 Billion and 1.57 Billion people respectively believe in, both have their roots in Judaism. I don’t know whether that might be possible if the Maccabees didn’t rebel against the Seleucids. Had this band of rebels didn’t fight, 3.77 Billion people today would have a totally different fate. I believe that Maccabees fought for all of us and in Hashmonayim Israel a Jewish enlightment began that lasted until the destruction of the second temple. Far too many things could be said about them and I am just not qualified to speak of. I do know however that everyone owes to them. What a small band of rebels did against one of the greatest empires of the world at that time had monumental repercussions for nearly 4 billion people today. That to me has the makings of a heroic faction: The Maccabees or the Hashmonayim as they are known in the Talmud.




Some reading for those so inclined


Josephus Antiquities, Greek text and English translation

http://pace.mcmaster.ca/york/york/showText?book=1&chapter=0&textChunk=nieseSection&chunkId=5&down.x=5&down.y=12&down=down&text=anti&version=&direction=down&tab=comm&layout=split


and some google books for good measure.

http://books.google.gr/books?id=t05okj1LB3QC&pg=PA93&lpg=PA93&dq=He+had,+moreover,+eight+thousand+front-line+fighters,+whom+he+called+%22+hundred-+fighters,%22+carrying+long+shields+covered+with+bronze.&source=bl&ots=ioyAVexkHJ&sig=3VaMwRKsGz36ZMVC6wuBf6BR0o8&hl=el&ei=AwPjTMfzMIqDswa67aT7Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=He%20had%2C%20moreover%2C%20eight%20thousand%20front-line%20fighters%2C%20whom%20he%20called%20%22%20hundred-%20fighters%2C%22%20carrying%20long%20shields%20covered%20with%20bronze.&f=false

and then this,

http://books.google.gr/books?id=SIKuW_bl6LAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Judas+Maccabaeus:+The+Jewish+Struggle+Against+the+Seleucids&source=bl&ots=TAXtBgf9dE&sig=IBajGiNyrN2-h4ZRF6eV6u7CLj0&hl=el&ei=WAXjTMaoAs3AswarsJDYCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false



For those who want to add this to their signature
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5084/5226501229_0441ba5c7d.jpg

[jirisys]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4145/5212020632_ebdb280d38_m.jpg

Thank you, keravnos for forgetting the signature image... You are a kind man:shame:

~Jirisys (Also... Why did you put the two faction symbols?)

[keravnos]

I have to apologize to Jirisys for forgetting to mention that the signature was his work.
I knew I had forgotten something. The other symbol of the faction used in inf and cav previews was made by Finn.

It is the same faction symbol.

[vartan]

It is the same faction symbol.
J was referring not to the symbol but to the design. It is his graphic design that was decided over the alternate, yet you intentionally placed both renders.

[AlexanderSextus]

I'm REALLY REALLY looking forward to this submod! The jewish unit roster looks pretty cool. I like the spathaphoroi.

oh, and one more thing.

I can haz preview of teh Noubaioi unit roster plz? kthxbai.

(ever since i saw that BBC program "lost kingdoms of africa" about Nubia i have wanted to play them as a faction)

not to mention around this submod's time period the romans had a fair bit of trouble with a black girl named Amanirena (hint hint)

[MButcher]

Your humble servant,
Archisomatophylax Isaakios, son of Abramos


Did the Hasmoneans use the Greek method for letter writing?

I do not mean to nit-pick, but if they did, wouldn't the correct letter format start with, "To king *insert name* from Isaakios, Archisomatophylax, greetings..."

I apologize if they used a different form.

[Reno Melitensis]

Great preview again. In Osprey's The Army of King Herod, there are mentioned that the kings also had a small contingent of Gallic Mercs as bodyguards. Where these adopted later by Herod or before bt an other Jewish Monarch.

Cheers.

[Lionheart]

They are present but not like a standalone unit. They are part of one of the units with long sword. Did you read all the descriptions that keravnos do. They are merged in one unit. Questions of space in the roster. However you could always recruit then as mercs if i'm not wrong.

[QuintusSertorius]

The Hasmoneans have piqued my interest, that roster on the first page is basically Roman, Romanised, horse-archer or barbarian. While the Ptolemaics are theoretically a Hellenistic faction, their roster is Romanised too. Precious few fighting in the style I enjoy before they came along.

[vartan]

They are present but not like a standalone unit. They are part of one of the units with long sword. Did you read all the descriptions that keravnos do. They are merged in one unit. Questions of space in the roster. However you could always recruit then as mercs if i'm not wrong.
I've heard that the ALX engine (1.9) has more space for units than RTW (1.5). Why didn't y'all take advantage of that? Because truly there is more space than necessary.

[Lionheart]

Vartan we are using the engine for barbarian invasion. We are not using rtw.

[Lionheart]

Quintus.

Also the Sertoriani are necessarely a romanised faction. Numidia and the Hasmoneans so far are pretty nationalist war-style. Pontos is very mixed and the Ptolies are pretty romanised.
But that's is happen because we are trying to follow the reality in that time-frame.

[QuintusSertorius]

Quintus.

Also the Sertoriani are necessarely a romanised faction. Numidia and the Hasmoneans so far are pretty nationalist war-style. Pontos is very mixed and the Ptolies are pretty romanised.
But that's is happen because we are trying to follow the reality in that time-frame.

Oh, absolutely, I recognise they are organised and fight that way because that's how it was. It's similar to my reservation about EB's original timeframe containing a load of pike-based Hellenistic powers, but that's the reality of the times.

But even Numidia and Pontos have Roman-style units (like their own legionary variants). The Hasmoneans strike me, at least from the previews so far, of being the most different.

[Lionheart]

True Quintus. But like you said in the I century B.C. the roman style of warfare was beeing copied for all the mediterranean areas.

But one thing that makes the Hasmoneans diferent is that until the moment in the released factions they are the less touched by the roman ways.
Altough this do not lasted long but in this time at least in the beginning they are one of the most nationalist army that could be fielded.

However some other surprises will also come...just have a little patiente and you will find other factions with types of war with little influence of the romani.

[QuintusSertorius]

True Quintus. But like you said in the I century B.C. the roman style of warfare was beeing copied for all the mediterranean areas.

But one thing that makes the Hasmoneans diferent is that until the moment in the released factions they are the less touched by the roman ways.
Altough this do not lasted long but in this time at least in the beginning they are one of the most nationalist army that could be fielded.

However some other surprises will also come...just have a little patiente and you will find other factions with types of war with little influence of the romani.

Cool, look forward to it. I like the position of the Hasmoneans too, somewhere I've not really done anything with (raided it playing as Pergamon, that's about it). Mostly I just like hoplites, thureophoroi and peltastai (as they were in EB), the Hasmoneans let me use them all.

I should be clear, I'll be playing the Romani and Sertoriani, I like the look of both factions. Playing the Romans as the superpower (rather than spending a long time building them to that point as I have done in the past) has its own appeal. As you'd guess from my choice of handle, I've always had a soft spot for Sertorius, so this is perfect getting to play out his attempt at building something in Spain. On that point, will his subordinates Hirtuleus and Herennius be Sertoriani "family members"?

[anubis88]

On that point, will his subordinates Hirtuleus and Herennius be Sertoriani "family members"?

I've researched about 8 FM's for the Sertoriani; 4 will definetly be in at the start, including the Hirtuleus brothers (well i'm still not sure about Quintus, but Lucius will definetly be in).

I haven't found any info on a Herenius tough (at least i don't remember it right now).

Do you have any more info on him? If he proves important enough i'll gladly put him in.

Thanks

[QuintusSertorius]

I've researched about 8 FM's for the Sertoriani; 4 will definetly be in at the start, including the Hirtuleus brothers (well i'm still not sure about Quintus, but Lucius will definetly be in).

I haven't found any info on a Herenius tough (at least i don't remember it right now).

Do you have any more info on him? If he proves important enough i'll gladly put him in.

Thanks

I don't have anything like proper sources; only that Goldsworthy mentions him in talking about the Sertorian War as the other main subordinate general besides Hirtuleus. He was killed by Pompey at Valentia after the traitor Perpena did nothing to aid his wing of the battle.

[vartan]

Vartan we are using the engine for barbarian invasion. We are not using rtw.
My question still stands. Replace BI where you see RTW.

[gamegeek2]

A lot more people have BI than alexander.

If you want a non-roman army, wait till you see the Nabatu...

[vartan]

A lot more people have BI than alexander.
Says who? You can have one expansion without having the other.

[QuintusSertorius]

If you want a non-roman army, wait till you see the Nabatu...

Aren't they just going to be horse archer-based like the Parthians?

Another question on the Hasmoneans, do their generals have infantry or cavalry bodyguards?

[anubis88]

I don't have anything like proper sources; only that Goldsworthy mentions him in talking about the Sertorian War as the other main subordinate general besides Hirtuleus. He was killed by Pompey at Valentia after the traitor Perpena did nothing to aid his wing of the battle.

Hm... I'll try to look into this...

btw, this is the Hasmonean bodyguard; https://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/Jegwettnorskbaralit/Hasm_bodyguards.jpg

[Lionheart]

True Herennius was one of the officers of Sertorius. But like the great part of Sertorius officers is competence in military tasks was...well limitated.

A historian from Portugal, José Mattoso refears then in is work, however i dont have the book with me. Perhaps i can go to a library and see what we said. But without a doubt Herennius was one of the officers of Sertorius.

[QuintusSertorius]

True Herennius was one of the officers of Sertorius. But like the great part of Sertorius officers is competence in military tasks was...well limitated.

A historian from Portugal, José Mattoso refears then in is work, however i dont have the book with me. Perhaps i can go to a library and see what we said. But without a doubt Herennius was one of the officers of Sertorius.

Agreed, they always seemed at their best when under his direction.

[gamegeek2]

Aren't they just going to be horse archer-based like the Parthians?

Another question on the Hasmoneans, do their generals have infantry or cavalry bodyguards?

Not at all, my dear sir, not at all.

[QuintusSertorius]

Not at all, my dear sir, not at all.

I look forward to being surprised, then.