Hoplites vs Hypaspists =? [Archive]

paleologos

04-13-2010, 13:57

Hello to every one!
I suspect this one has been asked before but I can't help asking...

Why is it so difficult for epilektoi hoplites to defeat the hypaspists, ep. hop. melee stat is 17 vs 12 for the hyps and all other things are equal.

And when do the hypaspistai use their spears?

And why haven't the hoplites been given their short swords (xiphe) and they are made to fight with spears even on top of walls?
(In my 1st EB campaign with KH -I use max unit size- three of my generals have Spartans for bodyguards and in one engagement on top of walls between my spartans and enemy peltasts I lost 20 Spartans. They all triped and fell!)

Will all of my generals who have the Spartiates attribute also have spartan bodyguards or does this happen just in the beginning of the game? -Their upkeep has to be paid for instead of the regular general's bodyguard for the KH who are for free.

Thanks in advance!

SwissBarbar

04-13-2010, 14:27

Epilektoi Hoplitai fight with a spear, while hypaspists fight with a sword, this might be the cause.

No, your generals will all have Epilektoi Hoplitai. Only the ones you start with have spartiatai hoplitai

satalexton

04-13-2010, 14:32

there's a hard code problemand an animation issue with secondary weapons...,..

Lvcretivs

04-13-2010, 14:50

...regarding#1: It may have to do with different weapon-bound lethality stats - the hypaspists' swords have an lethality of 0.225, while the Epilektoi wield a 0.13 lethality spear.
...regarding#4: Spartiatai bodyguards are exclusive limited to KH FMs living at the game's starting date, every new FM - regardless of ethnicity traits - will have the generic KH somatophylakes.

Fluvius Camillus

04-13-2010, 14:56

Epilektoi Hoplitai were a group of very good hoplites, while the Hypaspistai are the Hellenistic Royal Guard, an elite unit. Hypaspistai are meant to be strong, and in close combat very hard to defeat.

The hypaspistai can either use spear or sword. They charge with spears and usually fight with swords, if you command them to fight with spears (good vs cavalry), they will do so, but change back to swords after some time.

If you had given the hoplitai secondary swords, the AI would use the swords the most. This would be ahistorical. Just take a look at the Iphokratous (spelling?) hoplitai, in hands of the AI, they usually grab their short swords, even in situations where they really shouldn't.

Your STARTING family members with the Spartiatai ethnicity will have Spartiates Hoplitai as Bodyguard, while all others have Somatophylakes Strategou, any Spartiatai family members who come of age will get the regular bodyguards too. Enjoy them while you can!

Hope that helps!

~Fluvius

athanaric

04-13-2010, 21:19

Hypaspistai are meant to be strong, and in close combat very hard to defeat.
And yet they will lose one on one to unarmoured Bastarnae falxmen.

Fluvius Camillus

04-13-2010, 21:33

And yet they will lose one on one to unarmoured Bastarnae falxmen.

And that is the power of armour piercing weapons with reasonably high lethality my friend.

Try Thracian Elites versus TAB's~D

~Fluvius

seienchin

04-14-2010, 00:33

And yet they will lose one on one to unarmoured Bastarnae falxmen.
No they dont. Really where did you see something like that?
I made more than 100battles to determin who the best troop is and for now, noone ever got more kills and less casualties than the hypaspitai. If they dont break formation or are charged by cavallery they are extremly powerfull.
Bastarnae cant beat them for the simple reason, that their armour even halved is extremly high and they also have their defense skill and shield.

athanaric

04-14-2010, 01:28

No they dont. Really where did you see something like that?
In campaign, attacking a full unit of Hypaspistai with a somewhat depleted Bastarnae unit of the same experience level. On the central plaza of Demetrias. Bastarnae were winning despite of heavy losses, until the Hypaspistai were down to 30 or 40 men. Then I decided to move in some Vojinos to get it over more quickly.

Bastarnae cant beat them for the simple reason, that their armour even halved is extremly high and they also have their defense skill and shield.
Mid to top tier Barbarian units have very high def skill, not to forget superior stamina. A long fight exhausts the Hypaspistai far sooner, which causes some of their stats to drop.

In fact, fatigue of Hellenistic elite units is one of the best friends of a Saba or Barbarian player.

And FWIW, mina or mina you can always take those elite units down with far cheaper units. Drapanai and the likes are the best for that job. For the price of one Dosidataskeli unit, you can zerg rush them with three units of Drapanai.

mountaingoat

04-14-2010, 05:18

And yet they will lose one on one to unarmoured Bastarnae falxmen.

fear the falx ? :batman: .. and i think hypaspists are one of the few units that can hold and defeat elite thracian falxmen .. ( though it is close )

Apázlinemjó

04-14-2010, 07:15

And that is the power of armour piercing weapons with reasonably high lethality my friend.

Try Thracian Elites versus TAB's~D

~Fluvius

I ran a few tests a few months ago and the TABs beat the Thracian Leet falxmen always. ;o

Edit: Or was it the Dosidataskeli? I Forgot it.

SwissBarbar

04-14-2010, 08:33

Always depends on what difficulty-level you play. I assume you tested it all in Medium?

Duguntz

04-14-2010, 08:35

Because the game is balanced to be played on medium, it's normal that all test should be made on medium

SwissBarbar

04-14-2010, 08:37

Yes, exactly, I play my campaigns only in Medium. But not all do know. That's why I ask ;-)
On VH your Hypaspists get slaughtered by the grandma of every barbarian light spearman

Duguntz

04-14-2010, 09:06

On VH your Hypaspists get slaughtered by the grandma of every barbarian light spearman

So true, so true

Fluvius Camillus

04-14-2010, 15:24

I ran a few tests a few months ago and the TABs beat the Thracian Leet falxmen always. ;o

Edit: Or was it the Dosidataskeli? I Forgot it.

That was my point, I love how TAB's slaughter almost anything.

~Fluvius

Duguntz

04-14-2010, 15:27

what means TAB? The Almighty Bastarnae?

SwissBarbar

04-14-2010, 15:49

No, this means "thy awesome berserkers"

Fluvius Camillus

04-14-2010, 15:55

what means TAB? The Almighty Bastarnae?

The button above caps lock:clown:

Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou, one of my favourite units. They are the strongest Hellenic Infantry available, recruitable only by the Arche Seleukeia. Say, foot catanks. While they are not the strongest unit in game, they come very close and when you encounter the Grey Death phenomenon, these guys will make your life miserable. They are death in a mail suit.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/arche-seleukeia/seleukid_thorakitai_argyras.gif

They score high in sheer badassery and they do not care wether you form the royal guard of a faction, have a giant AP falx or if you fight butt naked, they will destroy you!

Few units can defeat them, of course repeated catank charges in the rear kill anything, but in a one on one fair fight, very few can stand against them. Their big brothers in Iberia (now taken out of the campaign, still available in custom battle) are one of those few. Try them both in a custom battle versus whatever unit you think can defeat them in a 1v1 fair fight.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/lusotannan/lus_dosidataskeli.gif

~Fluvius

Apázlinemjó

04-14-2010, 17:13

Always depends on what difficulty-level you play. I assume you tested it all in Medium?

Medium, 1 on 1 unit wise, no chevrons, tried with loose formation, with few and lots of rows. Even the leet falxmen couldn't chew through the marching tanks.

athanaric

04-14-2010, 17:22

While they are not the strongest unit in game, they come very close and when you encounter the Grey Death phenomenon, these guys will make your life miserable. They are death in a mail suit.
They soured my Saba campaign when I discovered that Arabian Slingers are useless against them. Eventually I figured how to utilize fatigue and light axemen...

Zradha Pahlavan

04-14-2010, 20:57

Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou

Damn, those guys have always found ways to piss me off. I remember the first time I saw them in my Pahlavan campaign, it didn't matter what direction you shot arrows at them from, they just wouldn't go down...
There was a large army of them that the Seleucids had once that I simply refused to fight. I didn't have the kind of soldiers for it. They almost retook Babylon, but luckily they were distracted by a Pontic invasion further west and went to deal with that.
I tried to reach my Pontic allies in time to help them, but by the time my troops made it there, Pontus was no more.

Megas Methuselah

04-14-2010, 21:00

Fluvius Camillus

04-14-2010, 21:10

Damn, those guys have always found ways to piss me off. I remember the first time I saw them in my Pahlavan campaign, it didn't matter what direction you shot arrows at them from, they just wouldn't go down...
There was a large army of them that the Seleucids had once that I simply refused to fight. I didn't have the kind of soldiers for it. They almost retook Babylon, but luckily they were distracted by a Pontic invasion further west and went to deal with that.
I tried to reach my Pontic allies in time to help them, but by the time my troops made it there, Pontus was no more.

I lost my first EB campaign to them (Saba 0,8), I was fighting the Ptollies near Pselkis and from Gerrha I took Charax. But an army with quite some TAB's attacked me there and I thougth, wow, these guys look pretty strong. It appeared that they were near indestructible and my Sab'yn levies lost quite hard. That meant that I could not head to Babylon and Seleukeia. Because I could not sack those cities, there was no cash to defeat the Ptolemaic armies on the other border. I had not enough cash to garisson large cities and was stuck, slowly being eaten by AS and Ptollies. I then gave up!:embarassed:

~Fluvius

Zradha Pahlavan

04-14-2010, 21:30

I lost my first EB campaign to them (Saba 0,8)

I fear that my Saba campaign may be going the same way, seeing as that the Seleucids and the Ptolemies are allied against me. I haven't seen any of those TAB guys yet, but my suspicion is that they're coming soon. Currently my hopes are placed on the use of Ethiopian elephants to augment my forces against them, assuming I can figure out how to recruit those critters.

Hahaha, awesome! I have to give it to you man, this post made me laugh over and over and over again.

In a way it was kind of awesome, especially when my rescue army was on its way to the Pontic capital, and every city they came to had been taken by the Seleucids only a short time before. My army was only one season too late to save the Pontic king from the Grey Death. It had to be one of the most epic events I've seen in EB.

athanaric

04-14-2010, 22:36

I fear that my Saba campaign may be going the same way, seeing as that the Seleucids and the Ptolemies are allied against me. I haven't seen any of those TAB guys yet, but my suspicion is that they're coming soon. Currently my hopes are placed on the use of Ethiopian elephants to augment my forces against them, assuming I can figure out how to recruit those critters.
Levels four and five regional barracks. Level five allows access to Bush Elephants, who are twice as strong but have utterly pathetic morale (4).

Marcus Darkstar

04-15-2010, 02:55

Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou, one of my favourite units.

~Fluvius

~Fluvius

They always looked awsome to me but I've yet to get a chance to use them. Gotta have March of Time event triggered as Sel to get them?

Fluvius Camillus

04-15-2010, 09:43

They always looked awsome to me but I've yet to get a chance to use them. Gotta have March of Time event triggered as Sel to get them?

No cataphract reform (the specific Seleukid reform), they are some sort of foot cataphracts and need some delay, so they're included. I get them now in my campaign, but I have yet to utilize them in battle!

~Fluvius

Ludens

04-15-2010, 16:06

No cataphract reform (the specific Seleukid reform), they are some sort of foot cataphracts and need some delay, so they're included.

They become available following the Seleucid cataphract reform, but they aren't "foot cataphracts". I get a bit annoyed by that term because it gives the wrong impression. Their tactical role is unrelated to shock-cavalry, nor was their development inspired by that of cataphracts. The only thing they have in common is that they are superheavy versions of their respective unit type.

Marcus Darkstar

04-15-2010, 18:05

They become available following the Seleucid cataphract reform, but they aren't "foot cataphracts". I get a bit annoyed by that term because it gives the wrong impression. Their tactical role is unrelated to shock-cavalry, nor was their development inspired by that of cataphracts. The only thing they have in common is that they are superheavy versions of their respective unit type.

I dunno ever look at the Late Parthain Cataphracts helments/armor with the ones they use.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/arche-seleukeia/seleukid_thorakitai_argyras.gif

file://localhost/C:/Program%20Files/EB%20Documentation/Units%20Documentation/Info/steppe_cavalry_grivpanvar_INFO.jpg

Huh huh? anyways Foot Cataphracts is just an anology refering to their ultraheavy armor tank like qualities.

Ludens

04-15-2010, 19:08

I dunno ever look at the Late Parthain Cataphracts helments/armor with the ones they use.

The helmet is similar, but other than this the TAB is simply a maxed-out thorakitai. The helmet was actually adapted so that the model could be used for the Dosidataskeli and their Goidelic equivalents. The original model had a legionary-like helmet with a chainmail veil.

I understand why some people call them foot cataphract, but this has given others the idea that TABs were somehow inspired by cataphracts rather than being an independent development.

Fluvius Camillus

04-15-2010, 21:48

They become available following the Seleucid cataphract reform, but they aren't "foot cataphracts". I get a bit annoyed by that term because it gives the wrong impression. Their tactical role is unrelated to shock-cavalry, nor was their development inspired by that of cataphracts. The only thing they have in common is that they are superheavy versions of their respective unit type.

My bad Ludens!~D

I forgot a comma, that gave quite the opposite of what I meant! I meant: "No, you need the Cataphract....

Thanks for pointing that out.

I know they were not foot cataphracts, but in EB slang Catank means a cataphract that is so heavily armoured that they seem near indestructible (for non-AP units). The TABs (also formely know as Thorikatai Argyraspidai:idea:) are near indestructible but are not cavalry, hence some call them foot cataphracts.

And I knew the model issue, they are actually the historical version of the RTW Silver shield legionairre, right?

~Fluvius

Poulp'

04-15-2010, 23:38

On a sidenote, didn't they benefit from the technology developped/ improved in the making of cataphracts armor ?

Ludens

04-16-2010, 15:16

And I knew the model issue, they are actually the historical version of the RTW Silver shield legionairre, right?

Yes, the unit was originally called Thorakitai Argyraspidas (forgive any spelling errors). The matter is a bit more complex, though, as the SS legionary was based on the description by Polybios of the Daphne parade, which mentions 5000 silver shields armed "in the Roman fashion", but EB's TABs represent a far more select group of royal guards.

On a sidenote, didn't they benefit from the technology developped/ improved in the making of cataphracts armor ?

Like I wrote: apart from the helmet it is simply a padded-out thorakitai, so I don't think so. But who knows? AFAIK the unit's equipment is speculative anyway. We know very little of Seleucid elites and their equipment.

Duguntz

04-16-2010, 20:57

...the SS legionary... Time lapsus... 1940... maybe i am just being silly, but eh, i have eyes for insignifient details...

Poulp'

04-16-2010, 21:12

talking about details, wouldn't it be "insignificant" ?

I'm sounding like a grammar nazi...

Zradha Pahlavan

04-16-2010, 21:13

NKVD falxman beats SS legionary.

Duguntz

04-16-2010, 22:00

talking about details, wouldn't it be "insignificant" ?

I'm sounding like a grammar nazi...

My bad, I write often too fast!

Kikaz

04-16-2010, 23:07

https://europabarbarorum.com/p/hanging-gardens.jpg I think the old TAB's were pretty cool-looking in their own right, is it possible to replace the model?

Ibrahim

04-17-2010, 03:52

https://europabarbarorum.com/p/hanging-gardens.jpg I think the old TAB's were pretty cool-looking in their own right, is it possible to replace the model?

well, if you hook up EB to Alex, you can do this. (afterall, you have to keep the model for the dosidataskeli and their irish varient)