View Full Version : EB Online Tourney: July 2010 - Special Anniversary Edition
In commemoration of the very successful pre-EB Online tourney of July 2009, I present to you the EB Online Tourney: July 2010 - Special Anniversary Edition. In remembrance of all of the members of The Guild who helped put together all the rules, settings, etc. that made the 2009 tourney such a success, let us do our best to make this one just as much of a success, if not more. Let's get straight to the details.
Point System
A very straightforward point system will be used. For each win, you gain one point. For each loss, you lose one point. The same applies to team games. Remember: Team games must be even-sided (2v2, 3v3, or 4v4). Each member of the winning team gains one point. Each member of the losing team loses one point.
There are two sets of points. Each player has his own point count. The second point count is the factional point count. Each faction has a number of wins and a number of losses equivalent to the total wins and losses of all players using that faction during that tourney month. Points only are counted for every month. There are no rollover points.
Signing Up
Threads like these must be set up one or two weeks prior to the beginning of the tourney. Let this be an example. To sign up for the tourney, reply to this post with your faction of choice. And I mean your final choice of faction. No changes will be allowed mid-way through the tourney. Once it begins, you're set. The only option you will have is to opt-out of the tourney (that is also final; no opt-out and then resume; if you have to have a week off, that's fine, but don't "fold your cards" unless you're completely sure).
Note: On Hamachi and in-game you must use the same name you use on The Guild. This is to avoid confusion. If you have a really long name, like "Hannibal Khan the Great", and you choose to use usernames like Hannibal Khan, that's fine. A shortened version of a long name is fine as long as it is recognizable.
Replays
You must upload and submit replays by posting links to the replays here in the form of a reply. Remember to state who you played against and who the winner was. Only winners are allowed to post replays so as to avoid duplicates. Thank you.
Jury
Every month, the tourney will have not only participating players but also jury members. Jury members cannot double as players in the same month, and players cannot double as jury members in the same month. The Jury is a board of a maximum of 9 members that adjudicate cases of conflict and protest. The minimum size of the Jury is 3 because it takes the agreement of 3 Jury members to come to a final verdict on who the winner was in special cases and whether cheating took place in protests for disqualification (DQ, wherein the game is not counted toward gain or loss). Three cases of cheating and the player is removed from that month's tourney, and his score contribution removed from the factional score as well. To be a Jury member you must state below that you wish to be so. Remember: This means you will not participate as a player and will solely make yourself available to review replays for cases of protest and conflict. There presumably won't be too many of these, so it shouldn't be much of a problem! All Jury members are respected and admired for their sacrifice. Thank you all.
And that's about it. If you want more of the nitty-gritty details, such as rules, what to do, what not to do, what to expect, etc., visit the website (it's a must-read for even the oldies). Find it at www.ebonline.tk (http://www.ebonline.tk/). Use the contact button (links to our email: contact@ebonline.tk) for any concerns, questions or suggestions.
Participants
Jury Members
Vartan
WinsingtonIII
Ibn-Khaldun
Tanit
Players
Wins - Losses = Total Score
Arche Seleukeia 1 - 1 = 0
LazyO 1 - 1 = 0
Arverni 13 - 13 = 0
The Celtic Viking 5 - 1 = 4
Vicious-Little-Noob (Guild name: VikingPower (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?63667-VikingPower)) 8 - 12 = -4
Baktria 4 - 2 = 2
Tex 0 - 1 = -1
Ovidiuhtm (Guild name: Burebista (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?64057-Burebista)) 4 - 1 = 3
Carthage 12 - 14 = -2
Jebivjetar 1 - 0 = 1
Intranetusa 1 - 1 = 0
Kival 10 - 11 = -5
Getai 0 - 2 = -2
retep219 0 - 2 = -2
Koinon Hellenon 6 - 0 = 6
Antisocialmunky 6 - 0 = 6
Pahlava 6 - 3 = 3
ACS 6 - 3 = 3
Pontos 6 - 4 = 2
Lignator 0 - 2 = -2
Apazlinemjo 6 - 2 = 4
Saba 12 - 6 = 6
MisterFred 12 - 6 = 6
Saka 1 - 5 = -4
Ghaust the Moor 1 - 4 = -3
Megas Ycarus 0 - 1 = -1
SPQR 5 - 1 = 4
Agrippa 4 - 1 = 3
Scipio Africanus 1 - 0 = 1
Sweboz 2 - 4 = -2
Kikaz 2 - 4 = -2
Results
Top 3 4 Players
MisterFred (Saba) - 1st (tied)
Antisocialmunky (Koinon Hellenon) - 1st (tied)
Apazlinemjo (Pontos) - 3rd (tied)
The Celtic Viking (Arverni) - 3rd (tied)
Top 3 Factions
Koinon Hellenon - 1st (tied)
Saba - 1st (tied)
SPQR - 3rd
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NOTE: THIS POST MAY NOT BE REPRINTED WITHOUT PERMISSION.
Jebivjetar
05-31-2010, 17:31
I will be proud to represent the might of Carthage in this tourney. Sign me in!
Hannibal Khan the Great
05-31-2010, 17:40
SWEBOZZZ!!!!!!!! Count me in!
The Celtic Viking
05-31-2010, 18:06
I'll join under my Arverni banner. However, my failure to fight with VT Marvin worries me a little. I would like to see if I can play against someone else, so could anyone please volunteer?
I'll join under my Arverni banner. However, my failure to fight with VT Marvin worries me a little. I would like to see if I can play against someone else, so could anyone please volunteer?
Visit the EB Online website for information on how to join the network. Once you join, you will find plenty of people eagerly awaiting an adversary to battle with.
Might I suggest to remeber that no Anachronism will be allowed (e.g. Camillan Bodyguard with Marian Soldiers, Saka bodyguard with Indo Saka units (that being said, might I suggest you rise the amount of Cavalry to 12 for the Steppe Factions, since most didn't use infantry unless they were sieging IMO), Time of freemen soldiers with Time of Warriors(?) bodyguard) you can also put in a reform margin, either choose the units after the reform, or before it, but no mix-ups (unless the units ARE available during both periods)
Also, if possible, if using Phalanx units, try to use the Alex Engine, how to do it is on www.twfilms.tk
~Jirisys (heh)
Son of a gun Jordie. Thanks for the new redirect -_-. And no the rules won't be bent. Check the site for standards. The SPQR rule for sticking to an era is already in place (it's an old rule). And like it says on the site, if all sides of the battle have Alex, use it. It's preferable. Not mandated. But here's the catch: when submitting, you must state that the replay uses the Alex engine, or else everyone viewing it (including Jury members) will have problems replaying on RTW engine. Thank you.
EDIT: Choose your factions before the tourney begins...
Skullheadhq
05-31-2010, 20:14
I'll have to let this go because I'll have to study my *** off for the last part of the year.
The Celtic Viking
05-31-2010, 20:41
Visit the EB Online website for information on how to join the network. Once you join, you will find plenty of people eagerly awaiting an adversary to battle with.
Thank you, but I've fought battles online many times before. I know how to do it; the problem is that it's not working now. It might be a coincidence (I had not played MP for months before), but since I moved I haven't been able to play MP. I have only tried with one person though, and I would like to test against someone else too before I give up and say "it's just not meant to be".
Since no one ever responds to me on Hamachi (even when it was working perfectly), or starts a convo with me themselves for that matter, I thought it best to make a date here.
(PS. I may come off as snide or rude here. Forgive me if I do; real life's an asshole to me right now.)
Real life is a __ to me too. Yeah...not good to curse publicly. Anyways, if I see you on you should be rest assured that I will contact YOU, not the other way around. If you don't want to bother with the network adapter priority settings, just uninstall Hamachi. Make sure you check the box that says uninstall user settings, etc. Then reinstall and do not touch the settings. Turn off your firewall, and then and only then will you surely be able to see yourself and others in the Lan Lobby. If you still don't, then it is an ISP problem. Some ISP's do not allow for VPN software like Hamachi. That is rare but unfortunate. My efforts are with you Celtic Viking.
WinsingtonIII
05-31-2010, 21:47
I'm rather busy once my job starts, but I'll help out with the jury for sure
UPDATE: Rules had some problems. There are no more elite restrictions. Bring elites to the battle at your own financial detriment. Also, steppe armies can only field 4 phalanx units now. They also are required to bring a minimum of 4 infantry (new) and a maximum of 10 (as before). The steppe cavalry limit has now been increased from 10 to 12.
Apázlinemjó
05-31-2010, 22:34
UPDATE: Rules had some problems. There are no more elite restrictions.
What about the Romani?
What about the Romani?
Good point. Prevents Elite Cav and Inf (e.g. Triarii, Extraordinarii) spam. I'll need the community's help for that, because even though we're looking for fun, we can't have Triarii spam just because the money allows for it. Any suggestions? There are 20 slots in a full army. How many can be used for elites maximum for the SPQR? (Although discriminatory, I ask because as you all know, all other nations, if fielding 6 elites, have barely half their budget left to fill in the other 14 slots.)
Hannibal Khan the Great
05-31-2010, 22:43
Maybe 3 elite inf and 1 elite cav?
Apázlinemjó
05-31-2010, 23:02
Good point. Prevents Elite Cav and Inf (e.g. Triarii, Extraordinarii) spam. I'll need the community's help for that, because even though we're looking for fun, we can't have Triarii spam just because the money allows for it. Any suggestions? There are 20 slots in a full army. How many can be used for elites maximum for the SPQR? (Although discriminatory, I ask because as you all know, all other nations, if fielding 6 elites, have barely half their budget left to fill in the other 14 slots.)
What about 8 including the general's bodyguards (if the player buys them) and the heavy cavalry (early cavalry units are bad and quite expensive)?
Fluvius Camillus
05-31-2010, 23:10
Of course I will join. It is my pleasure to decimate every foe who puts up a fight.
I will probably play my beloved Romani or my unbeatable Arche Seleukeia.
I'll decide when time permits, Seleukeia Victrix!
~Fluvius
antisocialmunky
05-31-2010, 23:41
I'll be the requisite KH punching bag. Go Go 2 Cav armies!
UPDATE: 8 elites max rule. Only applies to SPQR. See which units are elite by viewing the Factional Unit Lists on the EB Online site. 8 elites restriction includes cav and inf, but still is under the over-arching restriction umbrella (e.g. 5 cav max, etc.).
P.S. Eagerly awaiting your choice of faction Fluvi. Remember: Before the beginning of July.
Jebivjetar
06-01-2010, 01:16
What about chevrons? In one of previous tournaments there was a chevron-restriction for the Romans, due to their cheap and strong units.
Ibn-Khaldun
06-01-2010, 01:21
I would like to become Jury member. :bow:
What about chevrons? In one of previous tournaments there was a chevron-restriction for the Romans, due to their cheap and strong units.
Well, currently there is a 1chev-per-unit limit to all units. No atk or def upgrades whatsoever. What were you thinking of? A no-chev-at-all restriction for SPQR?
I would like to become Jury member. :bow:
Thank you. Finally, our much needed 3rd member. Any more will be fine until a max of 10, to allow for any set of 3 to be present when needed.
Jebivjetar
06-01-2010, 01:31
Well, currently there is a 1chev-per-unit limit to all units. No atk or def upgrades whatsoever. What were you thinking of? A no-chev-at-all restriction for SPQR?
Yup, and even then i had hard time fighting them with Carthage (because Carthage has mostly spearmen, swords and axes are too expensive, and spearmen lose against sword inf.)
Yup, and even then i had hard time fighting them with Carthage (because Carthage has mostly spearmen, swords and axes are too expensive, and spearmen lose against sword inf.)
We'll need a consensus. If more people agree with you on the no-chev-whatsoever rule for SPQR, we might see some change...
mountaingoat
06-01-2010, 01:42
rome needs the restriction IMO , their units are so cheap that they have a huge amount of mani left over.
i think banners should be turned off .. and maybe limit the playable factions ..
not sure if will join yet , will keep an eye on this thread for updates =P
rome needs the restriction IMO , their units are so cheap that they have a huge amount of mani left over.
i think banners should be turned off .. and maybe limit the playable factions ..
not sure if will join yet , will keep an eye on this thread for updates =P
If you think banners should be turned off, and don't know how to do this, please ask anyone at the Bugs/Tech sub-forum. There are many people willing to help.
Playable factions, limited? If people want to join the war, there's nothing stopping them.
If and when you decide to join, reply with your faction of choice (before the start of July).
antisocialmunky
06-01-2010, 01:52
I remember at some point we restricted Pre-Marian Rome to 33K with chevrons. If you go no chevron then you get Elephants.
I remember at some point we restricted Pre-Marian Rome to 33K with chevrons. If you go no chevron then you get Elephants.
Care to elaborate and reason this out?
gamegeek2
06-01-2010, 01:56
EDIT: I'll have a look at the rosters, then make my choice.
EDIT: I'll have a look at the rosters, then make my choice.
I'm sure I said this in the OP but if anyone is having technical problems even after reading and going through all the instructions on the site, contact me.
antisocialmunky
06-01-2010, 02:49
33K just worked for the Romans decently well last time and if you go no chevrons then the Romans will just grab some elephant mercs because they have so much extra money.
33K just worked for the Romans decently well last time and if you go no chevrons then the Romans will just grab some elephant mercs because they have so much extra money.
Done. (Chev only gives 1atk 1def and 1morale AFAIK so...not too bad.)
antisocialmunky
06-01-2010, 03:02
I think its 2 morale which is what mad my Romans ridiculously hard to break.
I think its 2 morale which is what mad my Romans ridiculously hard to break.
Oh that's not too bad. All I can say is "Great". Now we have to either fear elephants or all-chevron Roman units. No need to fear. :laugh4: Oh well. Maybe it simulates the awesomeness of historical Romans. I don't know. Help. Please.
Apázlinemjó
06-01-2010, 09:30
33K just worked for the Romans decently well last time and if you go no chevrons then the Romans will just grab some elephant mercs because they have so much extra money.
Isn't it a bit harsh, no chevrons for Romani, 33k and elite restrictions? Also the Marian units are more expensive than the Pre-Marians, what about them?
The Celtic Viking
06-01-2010, 11:57
Real life is a __ to me too. Yeah...not good to curse publicly. Anyways, if I see you on you should be rest assured that I will contact YOU, not the other way around. If you don't want to bother with the network adapter priority settings, just uninstall Hamachi. Make sure you check the box that says uninstall user settings, etc. Then reinstall and do not touch the settings. Turn off your firewall, and then and only then will you surely be able to see yourself and others in the Lan Lobby. If you still don't, then it is an ISP problem. Some ISP's do not allow for VPN software like Hamachi. That is rare but unfortunate. My efforts are with you Celtic Viking.
Thank you; I'll try this now.
Edit: Done. You should be able to find me on EB Online #1.
Thank you. Finally, our much needed 3rd member. Any more will be fine until a max of 10, to allow for any set of 3 to be present when needed.
If I can't get MP to work for me I could sign up as a jury member instead.
Jebivjetar
06-01-2010, 19:52
Isn't it a bit harsh, no chevrons for Romani, 33k and elite restrictions? Also the Marian units are more expensive than the Pre-Marians, what about them?
Yeah, that's a complicated issue, and i think it would be good if we, participants in this tourney, discuss it.
Anyway: here's my opinion. Something has to be changed. Yesterday i fought a battle against a polybian Romans and, objectively, my opponent had far more superior troops than mine. Take this example: 4 units of hastati broke my main line composed of heavy infantry + 1 unit of African elite pikemen. They were chevroned, fcourse, i had absolutely no money for chevrons. Situation was that just hastati and one unit of principes were able rout my main line, composed of elites and some spearmen. In reserve i had only few units of levies, while Romans had like 4 units of triari and cca 4 units of principes just for flanking job (their hastati were, i repeat, chevroned and able to kill my main line).
I had no troops to face Roman outflankers: just some light infantry and that's it.
That's not fair! :disappointed:
One more example: one unit of polybian principes/hastati cost cca 1200 minai: as non-Roman player, what can someone else take for the same sum of money?... Celtic spearmen? That's an absurde. In addition to that, Romans can put a chevron on the unit of principes and hastati, and win only because of the stats of their army: no creativity is needed in such situation to won a battle, because you can only send your troops and watch them winning. And that misses the main point of tournaments like this, imho: battles need to be challenging, and anyone who wants to win must be creative in battle process...
That's why i found that there's no point to fight chevroned Romans, they're too strong and only a blind man could lose playing with them. That's why i decided not to fight such kind of battles anymore, it's simply not fair.
:skull:
Isn't it a bit harsh, no chevrons for Romani, 33k and elite restrictions? Also the Marian units are more expensive than the Pre-Marians, what about them?
Listen up men. Roman units are cheap. Romans had reserves and reserves of manpower. There is no denying this. Romans can even get 1 chevron per unit just like the rest of us. The only Romans that can only use 33k are the pre-Marians. And 8 elite limit for Romans of any era...you call this harsh? Bring 8/20 units of Triarii and let's call that harsh. We're talking 40% of your army...elite. Romans were professional soldiers. But this doesn't justify nor represent any truths...almost half elite? 8 is certainly generous IMHO, because half of those can be elite cavalry, and the rest elite infantry. Romans don't have the best cavalry, so you might as well muster a strong elite reserve force. There's no excuse to losing battles if half of your men are reserve and elite, is there?
Just some food for thought, nothing final. Let me hear some thoughts.
The Celtic Viking
06-01-2010, 21:08
Yeah; Romans get a cost reduction for their infantry (might be cavalry too but I don't know) because of their legendary ability to raise new legions to replace lost ones. AFAIK, this would however not have an effect on single, isolated battles such as MP ones, so IMO the cost reduction shouldn't be there. Thus giving Romans a lesser sum of money to play around with is completely justified AFAIC.
Regarding elites... I'd say 8 is a generous figure.
One last thing: I just checked, and MP works for me now. I'm a definite member of this tourny. ~:)
Apázlinemjó
06-01-2010, 21:33
Listen up men. Roman units are cheap. Romans had reserves and reserves of manpower. There is no denying this. Romans can even get 1 chevron per unit just like the rest of us. The only Romans that can only use 33k are the pre-Marians. And 8 elite limit for Romans of any era...you call this harsh? Bring 8/20 units of Triarii and let's call that harsh. We're talking 40% of your army...elite. Romans were professional soldiers. But this doesn't justify nor represent any truths...almost half elite? 8 is certainly generous IMHO, because half of those can be elite cavalry, and the rest elite infantry. Romans don't have the best cavalry, so you might as well muster a strong elite reserve force. There's no excuse to losing battles if half of your men are reserve and elite, is there?
Just some food for thought, nothing final. Let me hear some thoughts.
Lawl, I was talking about the restrictions on the Romani altogether, but if they can buy the +1 chevron, then it's cool. And I came up with 8 elite limit, remember? You don't need to explain that to me. ;-)
Apaz I have really bad recent-term memory and I usually don't go back looking through posts to refresh aforementioned awful memory. So I sincerely apologize. Thanks for your feedback. Celtic you were Arverni right...
EDIT: **** me. Have you on the player list already...
antisocialmunky
06-02-2010, 00:27
Rome is only all that great when you cav spam with Extraordinarii. :-\ Their infantry is quite durable but if you can grab mass Sweboz of Getai units then the Romans don't really do anything.
Also Carthage is really weird to play.
Apázlinemjó
06-03-2010, 14:21
Rome is only all that great when you cav spam with Extraordinarii. :-\ Their infantry is quite durable but if you can grab mass Sweboz of Getai units then the Romans don't really do anything.
Also Carthage is really weird to play.
I want to try them with the new rules, is someone out there with Alex.exe?
Hannibal Khan the Great
06-03-2010, 15:43
The Romani rules should count with Marians too since their legions come in such a large unit size.
I want to try them with the new rules, is someone out there with Alex.exe?
Alex is no longer mentioned anywhere on the site if you haven't noticed already. Ownership isn't as universal as I hoped. It isn't a problem if people know how to use their units in a bug-free fashion.
The Romani rules should count with Marians too since their legions come in such a large unit size.
They are meant and supposed to come in great numbers...the only Roman rule that applies to a portion of Romans it the budget rule (33k pre-Marian).
Apázlinemjó
06-03-2010, 19:05
Alex is no longer mentioned anywhere on the site if you haven't noticed already. Ownership isn't as universal as I hoped. It isn't a problem if people know how to use their units in a bug-free fashion.
Well that's sad, I have Alex.exe MP only, till I get home.
Well that's sad, I have Alex.exe MP only, till I get home.
I'm sorry I don't understand. You mean you can only play EB Online using Alex? Hmm...I must be misunderstanding. You can play EB...SP or MP...with ALX or RTW. That's 4 combinations. What am I missing?
I'd like to join as Pontos please.
Apázlinemjó
06-04-2010, 10:29
I'm sorry I don't understand. You mean you can only play EB Online using Alex? Hmm...I must be misunderstanding. You can play EB...SP or MP...with ALX or RTW. That's 4 combinations. What am I missing?
My problem is, that I have BI and Alexander installed too, so my game is updated. The EB trivial script launches EB with the Alexander version. So I don't know how I could play with the original 1.5 RTW.exe on MP without reinstalling the whole game.
Aulus Caecina Severus
06-04-2010, 15:25
Can I participate as Pahlava? :sweatdrop::sweatdrop::sweatdrop:
My problem is, that I have BI and Alexander installed too, so my game is updated. The EB trivial script launches EB with the Alexander version. So I don't know how I could play with the original 1.5 RTW.exe on MP without reinstalling the whole game.
Easy. Create a shortcut on your desktop to the file RomeTW.exe located in your Rome: Total War directory. Open the properties folder of the newly created shortcut and where it says "Target:" add a space at the end of the line and add parametres so it reads something like this: "...\[your RTW folder]\RomeTW.exe" -show_err -nm -mod:eb
Make sure your Configuration software (Trivial Script program located in the start menu under Europa Barbarorum) reads Multiplayer in the drop down menu, and that you click Save & Exit so that it switches the EDU for you. Then you can run the game using the new shortcut to play EB "vanilla" (RTW engine) with all of us. Welcome.
Can I participate as Pahlava? :sweatdrop::sweatdrop::sweatdrop:
As an exception to the use-your-Guild-username rule, can I put you under ACS because I know you use that on Hamachi and we all know you as "ACS"...?
Apázlinemjó
06-04-2010, 18:57
Easy. Create a shortcut on your desktop to the file RomeTW.exe located in your Rome: Total War directory. Open the properties folder of the newly created shortcut and where it says "Target:" add a space at the end of the line and add parametres so it reads something like this: "...\[your RTW folder]\RomeTW.exe" -show_err -nm -mod:eb
Make sure your Configuration software (Trivial Script program located in the start menu under Europa Barbarorum) reads Multiplayer in the drop down menu, and that you click Save & Exit so that it switches the EDU for you. Then you can run the game using the new shortcut to play EB "vanilla" (RTW engine) with all of us. Welcome.
Tried that before, at the loading screen it still says that I'm using alex. Though I have to admit, I didn't check the lobby with this config yet. Let's try it & thanks.
Edit: It works, interesting, it still says I'm using alex, anyway thanks again.
Tried that before, at the loading screen it still says that I'm using alex. Though I have to admit, I didn't check the lobby with this config yet. Let's try it & thanks.
Edit: It works, interesting, it still says I'm using alex, anyway thanks again.
I can safely assume you're not a modder, at least not a very major and serious modder. Don't worry, me neither. But I'm savvy enough to know what I need to know. So I'll let you in on the info. The so-called Alex indicator you speak of isn't an indicator at all. Now, I'm going to unleash the 5 year old inside me. It could say RUGRATS or Jo Momma! if it so pleased. It is simply an image file that is arranged so that the image of Alexander graphical text is display in the centre bottom of the load screen. It is not an indicator at all, but simply an image. It is in your hands which executable you use. That's why I gave you the shortcut tip. So keep that shortcut and make sure you're on the Multiplayer EDU every time you play with other people. Have fun.
Apázlinemjó
06-04-2010, 20:16
I can safely assume you're not a modder, at least not a very major and serious modder. Don't worry, me neither. But I'm savvy enough to know what I need to know. So I'll let you in on the info. The so-called Alex indicator you speak of isn't an indicator at all. Now, I'm going to unleash the 5 year old inside me. It could say RUGRATS or Jo Momma! if it so pleased. It is simply an image file that is arranged so that the image of Alexander graphical text is display in the centre bottom of the load screen. It is not an indicator at all, but simply an image. It is in your hands which executable you use. That's why I gave you the shortcut tip. So keep that shortcut and make sure you're on the Multiplayer EDU every time you play with other people. Have fun.
Thanksfor the info too.
Ibn-Khaldun
06-04-2010, 23:13
vartan - You can mark me as a Jury member in the future tourneys as well. I can't play MP(pc can't handle online gaming) but I can help you and this competition this way.
Also, I like the part from the Rules where it is said that people have to admire the Jury members. ~;)
vartan - You can mark me as a Jury member in the future tourneys as well. I can't play MP(pc can't handle online gaming) but I can help you and this competition this way.
Also, I like the part from the Rules where it is said that people have to admire the Jury members. ~;)
Thank you Ibn-Khaldun. It is much appreciated indeed. And you do set a good example because, although I won't name names, there are several folks that I spotted have machines not strong enough for online play, save a few 1v1 battles on Large or Normal. Let me be honest. 1v1 battles are fun on Huge and are alright on Large. 2v2 and 3v3 battles are fine on large, and 4v4 battles simply should be Normal-sized battles. Simply coalesce your teammates' armies into one big army and start your fight. It can be frustrating when you find yourself spending more time looking for a game that work instead of actually fighting a battle.
Phalanx300
06-05-2010, 10:53
Thank you Ibn-Khaldun. It is much appreciated indeed. And you do set a good example because, although I won't name names, there are several folks that I spotted have machines not strong enough for online play, save a few 1v1 battles on Large or Normal. Let me be honest. 1v1 battles are fun on Huge and are alright on Large. 2v2 and 3v3 battles are fine on large, and 4v4 battles simply should be Normal-sized battles. Simply coalesce your teammates' armies into one big army and start your fight. It can be frustrating when you find yourself spending more time looking for a game that work instead of actually fighting a battle.
I gues I'll be playing as the Romani then. Been playing around with Camillans.
Fluvius Camillus
06-05-2010, 11:26
I gues I'll be playing as the Romani then. Been playing around with Camillans.
Vartan, is there only one spot per faction, if so. Count me as Seleukids, if not, I still can't decide.~D
~Fluvius
Gaius Crastinus
06-05-2010, 11:54
Gaius Crastinus Faction: Romani (Rome) Sing me in ! :)
Fluvius Camillus
06-05-2010, 13:26
Gaius Crastinus Faction: Romani (Rome) Sing me in ! :)
Lalala Gaius Crastinus... lalalala....
All right that was not funny.
Welcome to the forums Gaius Crastinus! Enjoy your stay here!
~Fluvius
Gaius Crastinus
06-05-2010, 14:33
Thank yoou!
Hey, welcome to the forums! Did you actually want us to sling you into the tournament?
Gaius Crastinus
06-05-2010, 15:28
Yes , Romani faction my name on Hamachi is Gaius Crastinus , same as here
Gaius Crastinus
06-05-2010, 15:30
ahahah i didnt notice i wrote " sing " sory ! i mean SIgn in i really wana participate , Playing Eb oumost 1 year So if u can add me it would be great
Vartan, is there only one spot per faction, if so. Count me as Seleukids, if not, I still can't decide.~D
~Fluvius
As you know, there can be 10 people on a faction, or 1 person. It's not a problem either way. The more the merrier.
Aulus Caecina Severus
06-05-2010, 16:56
As an exception to the use-your-Guild-username rule, can I put you under ACS because I know you use that on Hamachi and we all know you as "ACS"...?
Of course my friend!
Thank you
gamegeek2
06-05-2010, 17:26
Count me for Sauromatae.
IMPORTANT UPDATE: EB Online Network #1 is for practice/non-tourney matches. EB Online Network #2 is for tournament-only matches. You can read the same statement now on the website under Instructions page.
Ghaust the Moor
06-05-2010, 18:55
I want to do this but I don't know how to get all set up to play online. If anyone can let me know, I would greatly appreceate it
I want to do this but I don't know how to get all set up to play online. If anyone can let me know, I would greatly appreceate it
You see where it says EB Online in my sig? Yeah. Click on that. Once you reach the webpage, click on the tab named Getting Started (Instructions). Read it.
Gaius Crastinus
06-06-2010, 12:42
rome needs the restriction IMO , their units are so cheap that they have a huge amount of mani left over.
i think banners should be turned off .. and maybe limit the playable factions ..
not sure if will join yet , will keep an eye on this thread for updates =P
You know what we should Play without weapons at all .---------- only Fists... and Shoes too ! yes
Btw there will be 2v2 or only 1v1 ?:)
Ghaust the Moor
06-06-2010, 14:35
Since this Is a Tourney for July I'll be able to play on here as my internet upload speed will be improved then. I'll play as Saba because I want to try something other then Barbarian and Phalanx
Apázlinemjó
06-06-2010, 15:47
Since this Is a Tourney for July I'll be able to play on here as my internet upload speed will be improved then. I'll play as Saba because I want to try something other then Barbarian and Phalanx
Well, there are nomadic, half-nomadic, infantry based (not phalanx), mixed etc based armies too, not just "BARBARIAN" and "PHALANX". Winning battles with Saba is very hard in MP, I suggest you to try them in a few battles before you set your vote next to them.
You know what we should Play without weapons at all .---------- only Fists... and Shoes too ! yes
Btw there will be 2v2 or only 1v1 ?:)
Read my thread and/or lips: You may play any size battle you wish as long as each Team has equal amount of players.
Well, there are nomadic, half-nomadic, infantry based (not phalanx), mixed etc based armies too, not just "BARBARIAN" and "PHALANX". Winning battles with Saba is very hard in MP, I suggest you to try them in a few battles before you set your vote next to them.
Or you can always fetch ParallelPain and ask for advice, but he's long gone.
EDIT: Don't forget. The "Mercy Rule" for Saba states that Saba has no army composition limits whatsoever. The only limit is the upgrade limit: 1 chevron per unit. The faction is a difficult one to play as in multiplayer battles and players electing to use Saba are respected and admired for their choice.
Ghaust the Moor
06-07-2010, 02:25
Yeah I plan on playing as Saba because I'm not in it to win it, I just wanna try something I'm not used too. I'm playing a campaign at the moment so I'm kinda liking them right now. Oh and I got a few questions. When you say the only limit of one chevron per unit, are you saying only one Bronze? or does that mean one silver or one gold too? Also does that have any bearing on the weapon and defense upgrades? Finally, Does the Tourney start at any specific time and play according to some schedule or chart, or is it jsut start sometime in July and play at our leisure? Thanks for anyhelp, I know I ask some probably noobish qusetions but Its my first time doing this so I'm not quite sure about everything.
You aren't sure yet, so I'll help you get there. It ain't too far anyway. So here's the deal: When anybody tells you one-chev, it means 1 bronze, period. No upgrades means no attack upgrades no defence upgrades. You don't get access to magical blacksmiths, sorry. When does the July tournament start? Let me check my calendar. It starts...July 1st, and ends on...July 31st. And that's pretty much your 1st and 31st, as I know we can be straddling two days on this planet. Good luck with Saba by the way. At least you don't have army composition limits. Mercy rule. Good thing munky didn't call it the pity rule. That would be flat out unethical.
EDIT: We really need your help guys. Someone knowledgeable in the respective faction should reply with a list of the factional units for Pahlava and/or Sauromatae as per the EB website and place -H markers next to the cavalry units that should be considered heavy, whether for historical reasons or simply because they have heavy in their names. This would be much appreciated and is direly needed before the month starts. Note: Do not place -H beside those units that are specifically named "horse archer" because these are automatically considered medium cavalry (and consequently are excluded form the heavy cavalry limitation rule).
Ghaust the Moor
06-08-2010, 01:01
Ahh. I have decided that I would like to revoke my placement as Saba. I have decided that since this will be my first Tourney or competitive play of anykind, I should start off by playing something I'm more familiar with. So if its not too late, as the Tourney hasn't started, I would like to play as Lusotanna. Now If I am playing as Lusotanna, am I required to play a Civilized army list or can I play a Steppe army list or is that a requirment...again I am not sure. I want to run a Cantabrian army and thus mostly skirmisher cavalry and a few supporting infantry. Thanks anyway if you can't change it, I understand I jsut wasn't sure if it was too late or not.
July hasn't arrived yet so I don't see why you can't change.
Steppe Rules can only be used by Steppe Factions and those who (mostly) border Steppe Factions, these factions can use those rules:
-Pahlava
-Saka
-Sauromatae
-Hayasdan
-Getai
-Baktria
From the original thread one year ago. Those were the nations that were determined to be allowed the "steppe rule" composition. If Lusos--peoples I don't have much knowledge about--did use steppe armies in the past, I don't see why they shouldn't be a part of the steppe-able factions, if you will.
P.S. Looks like we're going to need not only a Pahlava and Sauro list, but now also a Luso list. Someone join as Epeiros and make our lives that much more enjoyable, haha. Hope someone has a certainty on which cav from these nations are heavy because I haven't the time/energy for this determination.
Ghaust the Moor
06-08-2010, 02:26
Well I don't think it would be the Lusos, specificcally that had a steppe type army. I think it would really only be something regional like the Cantabrians. But you would like a factional list for Lusotanna?
Well I don't think it would be the Lusos, specificcally that had a steppe type army. I think it would really only be something regional like the Cantabrians. But you would like a factional list for Lusotanna?
If you've noticed the Special Community Call for Help it asks for volunteers from the community who are able to identify the heavy cavalry units in the factional unit lists for the four unlisted factions Epeiros Lusotannan Pahlava and Sauromatae. Some units may be called Heavy Cavalry in their titles, and those are clearly Heavy. If it is a Horse Archer it is automatically medium (unless someone wishes to object to this; it's been standard so far). So if it ain't called heavy cav and it ain't a horse archer but it is in the faction's list of units on the EB website please tell me why it's heavy cav (maybe it's in the description or something else) and I can myself make the list with the -H markers. It becomes a reference for those making their armies.
antisocialmunky
06-08-2010, 05:03
Epeiros is hard to play. Their cav despite being some of the best in the game die like flies to arrows and their armies are generally slightly more expensive than Macs. :(
Takes lots of skills.
Also Saba > KH lol. PAIN...
Apázlinemjó
06-08-2010, 09:41
Epeiros is hard to play. Their cav despite being some of the best in the game die like flies to arrows and their armies are generally slightly more expensive than Macs. :(
Takes lots of skills.
Also Saba > KH lol. PAIN...
Yet you still go with KH, I thought you would choose Baktria for the tournament.
Edit: Gonna make the factionals' list for Epeiros and Lusos today.
Aulus Caecina Severus
06-08-2010, 13:39
If you are skilled with cavalry, u should take Sauromatae or Pahlava...
The cav are more cheap than others (indeed, take out Pahlavan Late Elite Cataphracts) .
If u are skilled with infantry: Romani or West Barbarian.
If u are skilled with all: Bactria or Seleucid or Ptolemaioi.
But I think KH isn't so bad.
Hannibal Khan the Great
06-08-2010, 17:10
If it's ok, I would like to switch to Arche Seleukeia from Sweboz for my faction. Sweboz is simply too specialized for the range of enemies I'll be fighting (especially Sauromatae and friends:skull:).
If it's ok, I would like to switch to Arche Seleukeia from Sweboz for my faction. Sweboz is simply too specialized for the range of enemies I'll be fighting (especially Sauromatae and friends:skull:).
You are not obliged to fight all enemies. You choose your opponent. Switched...
EDIT: EB Online site now has Epeiros and Lusotannan factional unit lists, thanks to Apaz.
_Agrippa_
06-08-2010, 19:09
Sign me as Epeiros thanks :D
Sir Kerwick
06-08-2010, 20:04
Hi guys I'd like to join this tournament with the AEDUI ;)
Jack Dionne
06-08-2010, 22:57
Sign me up, as Baktria please.
Thanks again Apaz for collaborating today. We're done with the factional unit lists. There are 19 because Saba is unrestricted. Doesn't necessarily make them IMBA, just skirmishable and annoying on 36k. Get missiles.
Sir Kerwick
06-09-2010, 22:20
Hi guys I'd like to join this tournament with the AEDUI ;)
sorry i want to change my faction with the romans if it's possible
Apázlinemjó
06-09-2010, 22:51
Thanks again Apaz for collaborating today. We're done with the factional unit lists. There are 19 because Saba is unrestricted. Doesn't necessarily make them IMBA, just skirmishable and annoying on 36k. Get missiles.
No problem. Please add me to Pontos.
Burebista
06-10-2010, 00:17
Sign me up as Saka.
Ps . I am Ovidiuhtm but decided that this name is nicer:P
So far that makes 17 players and 3 Jury members. If you players make sure to leave the network before actually closing Hamachi I would much appreciate it as it would make my job ideally easiest (i.e. not having to kick out offline members).
Ptolemaioi 0 - 0 = 0
Freelancer Tex (what's your Guild name?) 0 - 0 = 0
i'm here!!!lol
antisocialmunky
06-11-2010, 12:53
What are the draw rules?
Also I may have some time to make some lists. Its not that hard. I think Lusto only have 1 factional Heavy Cav and the elits or pretty well marked.
What other factions did you want lists?
The Celtic Viking
06-11-2010, 13:26
Thanks again Apaz for collaborating today. We're done with the factional unit lists.
It would seem like they're all done already. ~:)
Lists are done. Saba isn't missing one, it doesn't need one. Draw rules are on the rules page on the site.
Βελισάριος
06-11-2010, 20:13
I'm in. Getai, just for the fun of it.
WinsingtonIII
06-11-2010, 20:31
Note: Do not place -H beside those units that are specifically named "horse archer" because these are automatically considered medium cavalry (and consequently are excluded form the heavy cavalry limitation rule).
We're counting all horse-archers as medium cavalry? Including the ridiculous super-heavy Sauromatae tank bodyguards and Cataphract Archers? Or are you only talking about those units that actually have the words "horse archer" in their name?
We're counting all horse-archers as medium cavalry? Including the ridiculous super-heavy Sauromatae tank bodyguards and Cataphract Archers? Or are you only talking about those units that actually have the words "horse archer" in their name?
Have you checked the website's factional unit lists at all? Look at the horse archers that are denoted as heavy, including my very own armoured ones. If you or anyone spots any that I've missed please let me know--we don't want heavy HA walking around in numbers greater than they should be!
MisterFred
06-11-2010, 23:12
I'd like to sign up to play with the awe-inspiring Saba.
Since they're not available, I'll just use the regular Saba instead. And this has nothing, honest, nothing to do with my protest at having to announce the use of elephants before battle. (Too big a penalty to warn the enemy to pick up 3 gund-i-palta and hard-counter the one unit that's one-third of your army's cost. IMO people just need to be aware they need to devote a full third of their army to stopping your elephants and not just pick up easy counters after a warning.)
Jack Dionne
06-11-2010, 23:23
A couple of questions. Is the Hamachi network for practicing purged daily?
I picked Baktria so does that mean I have to pick that faction for the whole tournament?
I'd like to sign up to play with the awe-inspiring Saba.
Since they're not available, I'll just use the regular Saba instead. And this has nothing, honest, nothing to do with my protest at having to announce the use of elephants before battle. (Too big a penalty to warn the enemy to pick up 3 gund-i-palta and hard-counter the one unit that's one-third of your army's cost. IMO people just need to be aware they need to devote a full third of their army to stopping your elephants and not just pick up easy counters after a warning.)
I'm awaiting a response from munky for an explication of a possible budget-booster for ele users.
A couple of questions. Is the Hamachi network for practicing purged daily?
I picked Baktria so does that mean I have to pick that faction for the whole tournament?
Quoting the EB Online site:
The EB Online admin reserves the right to purge the networks of all offline members at anytime, unannounced.
This is why there are many purges some days, and none other days. Ideally I could have a bot automatically kick members the second they go offline (actually, even more ideally, y'all would leave the network before shutting off Hamachi).
By pick a faction I mean pick one for the month's tournament. You can practice with whatever faction you desire, but pick one that you'll use for all your tourney battles for a certain month (in this case, July 2010). If you choose to sign up for another tournament, say August 2010 (when the time comes), then you can choose another faction, or the same one if you so desire.
mountaingoat
06-12-2010, 04:05
I'd like to sign up to play with the awe-inspiring Saba.
Since they're not available, I'll just use the regular Saba instead. And this has nothing, honest, nothing to do with my protest at having to announce the use of elephants before battle. (Too big a penalty to warn the enemy to pick up 3 gund-i-palta and hard-counter the one unit that's one-third of your army's cost. IMO people just need to be aware they need to devote a full third of their army to stopping your elephants and not just pick up easy counters after a warning.)
it is not often that difficult to "predict" if an opponent is bringing elephants to the field .. all you have to do is look at how much mnai they spent and how many soldiers they are bringing to the field , which can be viewed by all before the battle begins.
example
MisterFred total troops 500 mnai spent 28000
so i would be thinking .. ok .. he spent all of his money and only brought 500 troops ... AND he has an an elephant faction .. high chance of elephants .. ( adjust army accordingly ) .
edit: yes there are ways you can attempt to mask this
Can i Change faction?
I want to be Backtria
Thanks
antisocialmunky
06-14-2010, 04:30
What happens if I make an all infantry army against steppe and I kill all their infantry?
All he has is Kataphracts and I'm in a giant box formation to not die. I can't catch him but he can't kill me or surround me. Can we force a draw in that situation or make points awarded by jury since in that case I would win by our current rules(he can't surround me and if I did, I would attack him)?
Another thought was some sort of point system for the game: +1 for killing a general and +1 for winning the battle instead of strict win/loss.
There is only one point system. If you win, you gain a point. If you lose, you lose a point. This is to accommodate for the simple fact that people cannot and will not end up playing the same number of games as others. Your objective every battle? To win. Period. I don't care if you kill 20 captains, the general, or neither. You simply must achieve victory.
Victory Conditions
If your opponent has no cavalry and makes a phalanx box and you can surrounded it with your men, you win.
Your opponent has only cavalry, you outnumber them more than 2:1, and you are just chasing him around the map. If after 5 minutes your opponent does not attack, you win.If you had a phalanx box,
Phalanx Box
A phalanx box is a formation of phalanxes wherein the phalanxes are put into a rectangular or other enclosing shape. For the technically inclined, a phalanx box is defined as an enclosing shape of over 75% phalanx units and at least 270 degrees of coverage.
and I surrounded you (that means I put units all around you, it doesn't require me to make a full circle with no gaps...), then I win. This is why the phalanx box is not banned. It's allowed because it gives you an opportunity to defeat it simply because you surround it (illustrating complete defeat for the army that is surrounded; historically, you would not want to find yourself surrounded...).
If your enemy has all cavalry forces because you defeated his infantry, and you clearly outnumber the horsemen (usually the case; if you are outnumbered by horsemen, then you will likely lose), and your enemy does not attack you but skirmishes his cavalry away from your forces for at least 5 minutes, then you win (as the enemy has not decisively defeated you, but simply simulates his retreat/forfeit).
Burebista
06-14-2010, 10:37
Here is the thing . I played steppe rules with Saka and i've played against KH. He had no cavalry , only spearmen and heavy bosphoran archers , he made them into a box in a patch of trees and just stayed there. I had 12 units of cavalry + many missile units but you can imagine that attacking him after the missiles were spent was pure suicide as even catas cant take face on Thorakitaii without losing more men than actually killing.
Sam ething happened vs romans. After i kill all their cav , general and missile units i get a legionaire hexagon on guard mode. Although i had the advantage in forces , i proposed a draw , which was refused on the motive that he is attacking by moving a unit towards my skirmishing infantrythen retreating it once every 4 minutes. You can imagine that after 1 hour i just exited as this is simply no fun.
I am seriously thinking Artillery or elephants now.Although they cost like 10 K+, i am tired seeing all kinds of closed geometrical forms of spearmen and legionnaires waiting for me to suicide.
PS : in the real world , wouldn't my HA just ran back to get some more arrows while my melee cavalry just stayed there surrounding them?
Jebivjetar
06-14-2010, 10:51
Here is the thing . I played steppe rules with Saka and i've played against KH. He had no cavalry , only spearmen and heavy bosphoran archers , he made them into a box in a patch of trees and just stayed there. I had 12 units of cavalry + many missile units but you can imagine that attacking him after the missiles were spent was pure suicide as even catas cant take face on Thorakitaii without losing more men than actually killing.
Sam ething happened vs romans. After i kill all their cav , general and missile units i get a legionaire hexagon on guard mode. Although i had the advantage in forces , i proposed a draw , which was refused on the motive that he is attacking by moving a unit towards my skirmishing infantrythen retreating it once every 4 minutes. You can imagine that after 1 hour i just exited as this is simply no fun.
I am seriously thinking Artillery or elephants now.Although they cost like 10 K+, i am tired seeing all kinds of closed geometrical forms of spearmen and legionnaires waiting for me to suicide.
PS : in the real world , wouldn't my HA just ran back to get some more arrows while my melee cavalry just stayed there surrounding them?
Why don't you take some melee infantry instead of misslile units only? Against armoured opponents i suggest you these nice fellows (as Saka you can have them):
http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/index.php?mp=unit&unit=eastern%20missile%20parasupattyasreni&text=guild&ownership=any&class=any&category=any
http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/index.php?mp=unit&unit=eastern%20missile%20indian%20longbowmen&text=longbow&ownership=any&class=any&category=any
IIRC Saka heavy hoplites are pretty good too!
Apázlinemjó
06-14-2010, 11:08
Here is the thing . I played steppe rules with Saka and i've played against KH. He had no cavalry , only spearmen and heavy bosphoran archers , he made them into a box in a patch of trees and just stayed there. I had 12 units of cavalry + many missile units but you can imagine that attacking him after the missiles were spent was pure suicide as even catas cant take face on Thorakitaii without losing more men than actually killing.
Sam ething happened vs romans. After i kill all their cav , general and missile units i get a legionaire hexagon on guard mode. Although i had the advantage in forces , i proposed a draw , which was refused on the motive that he is attacking by moving a unit towards my skirmishing infantrythen retreating it once every 4 minutes. You can imagine that after 1 hour i just exited as this is simply no fun.
I am seriously thinking Artillery or elephants now.Although they cost like 10 K+, i am tired seeing all kinds of closed geometrical forms of spearmen and legionnaires waiting for me to suicide.
PS : in the real world , wouldn't my HA just ran back to get some more arrows while my melee cavalry just stayed there surrounding them?
Honestly what do you expect? In mobility and firepower you outmatch the civilized factions, should they just stand there in a line waiting till you can hammer them? It is possible to break formations, I suggest you to check the replay of ASM vs Gamegeek2 match, where the latter was able to rout the spearmen box with the Sauro faction.
Edit: Here's the link for the replay (http://www.filefront.com/16702181/Horsies.rpy/)
mountaingoat
06-14-2010, 11:17
this is why 1v1 sucks for the most part (IMO)... this would not happen so much in 3v3 ..
i agree that there are ways to break the box , and there are ways to attack the steppe army ... it just does not make for an awesome game most of the time.
Burebista
06-14-2010, 12:15
Don't get me wrong , i do not expect an infantry army to full out attack unless it feels that he has an advantage. I just want some sort of rule for a draw , in the case where the forces are equal but neither side feels that making a move will bring him victory. i just don't like the ideea that i am forced to charge heavy hoplites in front very much to my disadvantage or choose to stay 1 h or so looking 1 at another.
Let's be honest , in Carhae did the parthians full out charge into the ranks of the romans after they routed their cavalry? no . they brought more arrows. and cut their supplies until the romans saw that either they engaged the enemy ( we do have infantry you know) or die of hunger.
antisocialmunky
06-14-2010, 13:11
Honestly what do you expect? In mobility and firepower you outmatch the civilized factions, should they just stand there in a line waiting till you can hammer them? It is possible to break formations, I suggest you to check the replay of ASM vs Gamegeek2 match, where the latter was able to rout the spearmen box with the Sauro faction.
Edit: Here's the link for the replay (http://www.filefront.com/16702181/Horsies.rpy/)
Well to be quite honest, I threw that game away after I moved out from my circle. I think the trees made a pretty big difference, he would have had a better chance without them and my archers wouldn't have been able to two shot cavalry to 50% before they got in cantabrian. Also in my experience, Indian archers are complete garbage in missile duels(I have no idea why, but they just can't kill other archers very well) but they are some of the mosti nsane melee light infantry in the game because they ahve AP knives. That would have probably helped you.
Burebista
06-14-2010, 13:53
Vartan , please move me (Burebista) to Baktria.
MisterFred
06-14-2010, 16:54
If you could surround them and their cav is dead, you won by tourney rules. Congratulations :)
Burebista, you are the victor in the scenario you described. You win because your enemy has not any supplies while you have unlimited supplies. The game does not represent this, unfortunately. You can have your men on all four sides of the enemy, and he is done. He may try to break through your containment, but if he does not succeed and you end up crushing him, you are the victor, again.
Βελισάριος
06-14-2010, 21:11
If it pleases the jury, please switch me (Belisarios) to Epeiros. Thank you
Would it be possible for someone to upload the replays in a regular video format or onto youtube for those of us with different versions of EB? That would be awesome!
Ghaust the Moor
06-14-2010, 22:44
If its not a problem, Please move me to Saka
EDIT: I agree with Tanit. It makes it a whole lot easier
WinsingtonIII
06-15-2010, 00:01
If you had a phalanx box
and I surrounded you (that means I put units all around you, it doesn't require me to make a full circle with no gaps...), then I win. This is why the phalanx box is not banned. It's allowed because it gives you an opportunity to defeat it simply because you surround it (illustrating complete defeat for the army that is surrounded; historically, you would not want to find yourself surrounded...).
If your enemy has all cavalry forces because you defeated his infantry, and you clearly outnumber the horsemen (usually the case; if you are outnumbered by horsemen, then you will likely lose), and your enemy does not attack you but skirmishes his cavalry away from your forces for at least 5 minutes, then you win (as the enemy has not decisively defeated you, but simply simulates his retreat/forfeit).
There's gotta be some sort of in between though, right? What if one player loses all cavalry and is forced to form the phalanx box to survive, but they still significantly outnumber the enemy's all cav army? If the cavalry is high quality enough, even a significantly outnumbered cavalry force might be able to force someone into the box. At this point, however, neither can win. If the cavalry go for the charge, they die. If the infantry break the box and attempt to chase the cavalry, they never catch them and may get flanked/killed. I know it's a rare eventuality, but who gets the win here? Both rules that you stated technically apply, so do we award 1 point to each, or perhaps 0 points to each? I'm thinking 0 to each, simply because giving 1 point to each encourages draws... Or we could go with World Cup scoring and award 3 points for a win, 1 for a draw (although I admit the situation is very rare and subject to judicial review), and 0 for a loss...
EDIT: Sorry Vartan, I missed your later post on the subject. So we're awarding wins based on what would constitute a strategic victory in those scenarios?
antisocialmunky
06-15-2010, 00:41
Cue me killing his infantry, and then chasing cataphracts around the map with a box. That's fine by me but what isn't is that if the enemy keeps running away from my men with their infantry and refuses to engage my men but they keep maintaining a surround, what is the outcome? Its not really fair that if they kill my cavalry then I auto lose. At that point they can get just better cav, mass archers, and skirmishers, snipe the enemy cavalry and be declared the winner by forming a loose circle around the enemy.
And what do you mean they have unlimited resources? That implies that its always the other factions invading them. IRL the Steppe factions were invading the Eastern Arche Seleukia, India, and then getting invaded by Yuehzi :-p.
Cue me killing his infantry, and then chasing cataphracts around the map with a box. That's fine by me but what isn't is that if the enemy keeps running away from my men with their infantry and refuses to engage my men but they keep maintaining a surround, what is the outcome? Its not really fair that if they kill my cavalry then I auto lose. At that point they can get just better cav, mass archers, and skirmishers, snipe the enemy cavalry and be declared the winner by forming a loose circle around the enemy.
And what do you mean they have unlimited resources? That implies that its always the other factions invading them. IRL the Steppe factions were invading the Eastern Arche Seleukia, India, and then getting invaded by Yuehzi :-p.
I guess the cav would win if they sorround the enemy, have at least one unit in every side, it shows the resource shortage and of the chase you in phalanx box, well you win, because you can avoid it but not getting too far, IMO
~Jirisys (Hey Gaust)
I guess the cav would win if they sorround the enemy, have at least one unit in every side, it shows the resource shortage and of the chase you in phalanx box, well you win, because you can avoid it but not getting too far, IMO
~Jirisys (Hey Gaust, join the army:smile:)
Let's not jump to conclusions now, young Jedi.
Would it be possible for someone to upload the replays in a regular video format or onto youtube for those of us with different versions of EB? That would be awesome!
There will be an EB Online Tournament Replay Archive on the website, along with statistics on faction wins/losses so people can get some idea on what's historically going on in the tournament realm (not too suggest that one faction is better than another, just some stats). As for the video, would you suggest something like that to any one of your videographers?! (you do have them, right?) It can be fun shooting them, but there are many games per tourney, and it's impossible to shoot and edit them all, let alone their highlights. A compilation is one thing, a video for each battle another. The replays will be 1.2 compatible, as long as you don't have EDU-altering submods or anything of the sort. (i.e. If when loading a replay you get a message stating that the replay may not play correctly, then you need to make sure you fix things on your end; contact me and I'll gladly help as soon as humanly possible.)
There's gotta be some sort of in between though, right? What if one player loses all cavalry and is forced to form the phalanx box to survive, but they still significantly outnumber the enemy's all cav army? If the cavalry is high quality enough, even a significantly outnumbered cavalry force might be able to force someone into the box. At this point, however, neither can win. If the cavalry go for the charge, they die. If the infantry break the box and attempt to chase the cavalry, they never catch them and may get flanked/killed. I know it's a rare eventuality, but who gets the win here? Both rules that you stated technically apply, so do we award 1 point to each, or perhaps 0 points to each? I'm thinking 0 to each, simply because giving 1 point to each encourages draws... Or we could go with World Cup scoring and award 3 points for a win, 1 for a draw (although I admit the situation is very rare and subject to judicial review), and 0 for a loss...
EDIT: Sorry Vartan, I missed your later post on the subject. So we're awarding wins based on what would constitute a strategic victory in those scenarios?
Cue me killing his infantry, and then chasing cataphracts around the map with a box. That's fine by me but what isn't is that if the enemy keeps running away from my men with their infantry and refuses to engage my men but they keep maintaining a surround, what is the outcome? Its not really fair that if they kill my cavalry then I auto lose. At that point they can get just better cav, mass archers, and skirmishers, snipe the enemy cavalry and be declared the winner by forming a loose circle around the enemy.
And what do you mean they have unlimited resources? That implies that its always the other factions invading them. IRL the Steppe factions were invading the Eastern Arche Seleukia, India, and then getting invaded by Yuehzi :-p.
@Winsington & Munky: Situations such as those mentioned are very sticky and do occur with spear civ. vs. steppe battles, quite often. They are my lease favourite situation to review, and I don't think I ever did with any certainty say that the Jury member's job was going to be a piece of cake (sorry Jury :sweatdrop:). In any case, I don't like awarding 0 points for losses for reasons mentioned elsewhere. That is, not all can play as many games as another person might. The more you play, the more wins you can potentially gather. We want to mark you for your losses to keep things in check. If you have 10 wins and 10 losses, don't you think the guy that got 7 wins and 2 losses played better than you? 10-10=0, but 7-2=5. Now, the two rules I have may seem contradictory but aren't. It's just that it is a very, very sticky situation. If you chase after the enemy horse, but they refuse to engage for 5 minutes, you would win. If the enemy surrounds you and you don't do anything, you would lose. Yes, this presumes that they invaded you, which usually wasn't the case. You didn't chase anything around the map Munky. Your box killed enemy inf but you got devastated by perpetual charges by the end and was forced to admit defeat (p.s. that was a long game, over the 2 million frames mark). What would you have me do? It's hard enough pleasing everyone in the crowd, so let me hear some suggestions that may show up in any of these sections: fair play rules, victory conditions, or draw rules/conditions. Thanks.
Ghaust the Moor
06-15-2010, 02:00
~Jirisys (Hey Gaust, join the army:smile:)
I'll defenetly do that so long as I'm allowed :P
antisocialmunky
06-15-2010, 02:13
I wasn't refering to that game and in that game I did try and attack for the lulz and lost.
I'll defenetly do that so long as I'm allowed :P
I already changed you to Saka (so many changes recently!).
I wasn't refering to that game and in that game I did try and attack for the lulz and lost.
Well there you go, you lost!
WinsingtonIII
06-15-2010, 04:30
It's definitely a difficult situation, but perhaps we could award 3 points for a victory, subtract 3 points for a loss, and award 1 point to each player for a draw. Draws of course would be determined by the jury. Right now I don't have any specific rules in mind for what constitutes a draw, but I'll think about it.
It's definitely a difficult situation, but perhaps we could award 3 points for a victory, subtract 3 points for a loss, and award 1 point to each player for a draw. Draws of course would be determined by the jury. Right now I don't have any specific rules in mind for what constitutes a draw, but I'll think about it.
I forget. Are you participating as a player, Jury member, or neither?
Draw Rules
If the map is the side of a mountain, a bridge, or has closely spaced buildings, then you are allowed to leave the game during the deployment phase without penalty.
If one player crashes during the game and it has not yet been decisively decided (after reviewed by the Jury if during a tournament), then there is no penalty.
If your opponent allows you to, you can restart the game without penalty.
Tell me, why should draws be rewarded (positive value)? Why shouldn't they be punished (negative value)?
WinsingtonIII
06-15-2010, 04:56
I forget. Are you participating as a player, Jury member, or neither?
Tell me, why should draws be rewarded (positive value)? Why shouldn't they be punished (negative value)?
I'm on the jury.
They definitely shouldn't be punished, it's not like it's cheating or something. I don't really care if they get rewarded or not, I was just proposing a sample scoring system. Giving no points to either player for a draw works fine, but the only issue there is that players may feel as if a battle ending in a draw is not even worth reporting. Of course, this isn't really an issue, so make whatever decision you want.
Burebista
06-15-2010, 07:47
Historically speaking , sitting in a box with any kind of inf units for a long time usually gets you killed by hunger as that many men don't have that much supplies to live off by. Compare that to the surrounding cavalry that is usually fewer in number over a larger space +can receive food via reinforcements (maybe arrows too:))!
I feel that it is unfair that some guys just bring infantry and then complain that their supply lines were cut.
Also i have to admit it is unfair that as a roman /western europe civilisation have a limit to heavy cav as it is kinda expensive anyhow and less effective than the steppe's , to imitate a large horse raid . Maybe keep a restriction for heavies just for Hellenes as they were usually adverse to raids with cata's as they do move sooooo sloww.
Just my 2 Cents
Phalanx300
06-15-2010, 09:45
Well it wouldn't be fair if the horse archer army wins all the time because its infantry is dead...
Βελισάριος
06-15-2010, 09:50
On the issue of draws (or, rather, stalemate):
Methinks, if you're the attacking faction, you lose, but if you're defending, you win. Because the defender's rationale is: don't let the feckers get through so in that sense: mission accomplished. If you're attacking, your objectives are to if not wipe out the opposing force, then at least punch through their lines, so if you draw, the outcome is: "teh fail!".
On the issue of boxing, or the "Pahlavan standoff" as I like to call it:
I propose we settle this by skipping the theory a bit and putting it into practice. What I suggest is we take a series of matches between several formulae of all-cav all-infantry 1-on-1's and see who gets what.
Personally, I've defeated many a cavalry charge without boxing (and without any cavalry of my own) so it is, in the very least, possible.
So who's up for the test? I submit myself to the infantry faction for this experiment.
Burebista
06-15-2010, 10:02
The guys defending arent defending squat. they are surrounded in a patch of grass or trees. This ain't Thermopylae ( although even they , defending , after they got surrounded they were toast)
mountaingoat
06-15-2010, 10:07
steppe vs non steppe in tournament is ... tricky ... this is the reason i left them out of the proposed dec tournament in 09 ... but then there was complaints with "barbarians" vs "civ" .. hmm
Βελισάριος
06-15-2010, 10:11
Ehm, Burebista (thanks for stealing my name, by the way :P), I misunderstood. We're talking about two different issues there. The one is the issue of draws (for which apparently some people want points)- as in, if we reach a stalemate and nobody's attacking... qui bono? who wins?
The other is phalanx boxing for which I proposed the experiment.
Burebista
06-15-2010, 10:55
Sorry for the name , just joined the community and being romanian , had a choice between Burebista & Decebalus (getai + rhomaioi=> romanians). Saw that Decebalus was taken , so went for this one.
After seeing it is taken , i'm thinking of changing it.
PS : Draws AKA stalemates should be remakes , i think as this would be in history just as going back , restocking , reinforcing units and fighting again. that is with the exception of surrounding your enemy , as that is clearly an attrition war which has a clear end: fight disadvantageously or die .
Βελισάριος
06-15-2010, 13:23
It's not "taken", mate, you can have it. I frequently change my name on the .org
Returning to draws. That's in the event of a siege, this isn't a siege we're talking about necessarily, but two armies meeting on a field. Standard situation, the attacker's the one who'd be in supply trouble.
Burebista
06-15-2010, 14:41
How much food or water do you think a defending large army has when fighting?Will they last weeks or months till reinforcements come to break them out of encirclement? Or are you reffering to canibalism?:))
I am strictly speaking about the situation where an army is encircling the other , not when they are facing 1 another in perfect standstill.
MisterFred
06-15-2010, 15:04
I don't see that it's as complicated as people are making out. If the infantry box is still willing to march around the map, then there's no penalty for keeping to formation (can still try and reach friendly or even enemy settlement even if it can't engage). If the infantry box is not willing to march around the map (I needs my trees or hill or will create weak spots in formation when I move so I won't) then it loses (can't reach settlement because it can't move). Who's invading who doesn't really matter... armies can get trapped in friendly territory just as they can in foreign lands, and being an invader doesn't mean you've abandoned your own supply lines.
Apázlinemjó
06-15-2010, 16:37
I don't see that it's as complicated as people are making out. If the infantry box is still willing to march around the map, then there's no penalty for keeping to formation (can still try and reach friendly or even enemy settlement even if it can't engage). If the infantry box is not willing to march around the map (I needs my trees or hill or will create weak spots in formation when I move so I won't) then it loses (can't reach settlement because it can't move). Who's invading who doesn't really matter... armies can get trapped in friendly territory just as they can in foreign lands, and being an invader doesn't mean you've abandoned your own supply lines.
I agree. The current rules are good as it is, if the infantry box chases the enemy cavalry around the map, they win, if the box doesn't move and surrounded, they lose.
antisocialmunky
06-15-2010, 17:20
That's fine then.
Its good you see you old Burebista, what happened and what will your tounement name be?
I agree. The current rules are good as it is, if the infantry box chases the enemy cavalry around the map, they win, if the box doesn't move and surrounded, they lose.
That's about right. There are no attackers, and there are no defenders. This isn't a meager steppe/non-steppe system, this is EB Online. It's flexible, expandable, scalable, and everything else you can think of (and cannot think of). The monthly tournaments are battlefield-based, there are no sieges in the tourneys. There are no attackers/defenders. If you and your opponent consider your situation a draw, then leave the game and do not upload/submit it. Nobody will ever know your battle even took place.
As for any other ambiguous cases that you and/or your opponent wish to have adjudicated, simply submit your replay and a short explanation of the context and the Jury will see to it that your case be resolved in as timely a manner as humanly possible.
Its good you see you old Burebista, what happened and what will your tounement name be?
Read the front page pal, he's Baktrian.
antisocialmunky
06-15-2010, 19:15
He's Epeiros and I was talking to Βελισάριος, the original Burebista - the guy who made the Rome vs Greek Tournement that set off EB Multiplayer.
He's Epeiros and I was talking to Βελισάριος, the original Burebista - the guy who made the Rome vs Greek Tournement that set off EB Multiplayer.
Don't forsake the older online battles. Βελισάριος is Belisarios.
P.S. Please leave the networks when done with your gaming sessions. I'm sure this is the fifth or sixth time...
retep219
06-17-2010, 05:28
Could I sign up as the Getai?
Done.
P.S. We only have 3 Jury members as of this writing. I won't ask for Jury members, that doesn't seem right to me. But if anybody is in any form willing to act as a Jury member and for whatever reason not as a participating player, it would be highly appreciated. More than can be expressed in this reply window.
Thank you all,
Vartan
How does one act as a Jury member and what is expected of them?
EDIT: nvm, just read the site, yeah I'm down for Jury duty. Official EB Team representation, there you go.
Βελισάριος
06-18-2010, 07:40
...Βελισάριος, the original Burebista - the guy who made the Rome vs Greek Tournement that set off EB Multiplayer.
That's right. I'm the Mack Daddy of all EB Tournaments. It's funny to see some of our old debates about phalanx boxes and whatnot still not finished.
(And I knew that Burebista thing would confuse someone sooner or later, heh)
Hey, ASM. Long time no see, eh? Well, I decided that my life was a bit too good, so I figured I'd waste some more time playing EB again.
Speaking of which... I think I owes you an arse-kickin' or three.
antisocialmunky
06-18-2010, 12:23
I will be on late tonight. I think that's when I usually pwned you.
How does one act as a Jury member and what is expected of them?
EDIT: nvm, just read the site, yeah I'm down for Jury duty. Official EB Team representation, there you go.
Thanks mate.
EDIT 2: Make sure all to review the site every once in a while (some still don't know about the 5 archer/slinger update from the previous 4 for civilized nations). Also see Online Etiquette, it's the most important part of the site.
Offensive remarks regarding anybody's race, sex, sexual orientation, ethnicity, age, height, or any other aspect will not be tolerated and will be subject to banishment from EB Online.
EDIT 3: If you park your computer on the network and are inactive, expect to be kicked.
Also, a suggestion: From now on (the tournament contestants), you should play with the Tournament regulated rules on multiplayer, in order to remember it and plan a strategy with those units, in order to help you familiarize with it
Regards
~Jirisys (Վարդան, ես գիտեմ, դա ոչ մի կանոն չկա, բայց մի առաջարկ, եւ եթե ձեզ դուր չի գալիս, միայն ասել, ինչպես `այն չի պատրաստվում պետք է կատարվի հիմա, շնորհակալություն)
People can play with any rules they wish to play with. The website for EB Online is simply there for the rules that people must adhere to when playing tournament matches the for the monthly tournaments.
People can play with any rules they wish to play with. The website for EB Online is simply there for the rules that people must adhere to when playing tournament matches the for the monthly tournaments.
I said it was a suggestion, and besides, could be beneficial for them (make sure you're both using those rules, or else your gonna get heavily pwnd if you're not that good :clown:(like me getting pwnd by SlickNica:clown:))
~Jirisys (go on, read the book before the test)
Ich will spiele Sweboz bitte.
Ich will spiele Sweboz bitte.
Done.
A concern was brought to me about the massive swarms of Roman legionaries. The more regulation the tournaments have, the (quite possibly) less fun they will be. Do a majority of people actually have a problem with a player using a legion that has more than the historical 10 cohorts? (I think that's what it was, but I'm no SPQR historian.) I mean, the guy is trying to battle, not reenact a Roman legion.
Also, I was given a proposal that the tourneys should have no rules whatsoever and that people should play as they wish. Do a majority of people support this anarchical view or is that going to be a bit of a problem?
Thanks,
V
antisocialmunky
06-20-2010, 03:52
Its fine, no other faction has to make historical armies. My main complaint would be legionaire stacking since alot of the newbies aren't paying attention to their army control and it ends up with a bunch of stacked guard mode legionaires of ultra lame. :-\
Its fine, no other faction has to make historical armies. My main complaint would be legionaire stacking since alot of the newbies aren't paying attention to their army control and it ends up with a bunch of stacked guard mode legionaires of ultra lame. :-\
Yes. Munky brings up a really important point here. If you're going to stack, don't do it defensively, ever. Make sure you are attacking and that guard is OFF. Don't think you'll get away with it either, the Jury ain't dumb. We have eyes for these kinds of things!
P.S. Look for a heavy Rules page reform in the next few hours/days...
EDIT: The Rules page has been reformed. If you are going to play in the tourney, are a Jury member, or plan on being a Jury member or player in the near or distant future, please read the Rules page. It is a must.
antisocialmunky
06-20-2010, 05:43
While its a bad idea to attack in guard mode(units tend to do stupid stuff), there doesn't need to be a rule against attacking in guard mode. :-\
While its a bad idea to attack in guard mode(units tend to do stupid stuff), there doesn't need to be a rule against attacking in guard mode. :-\
The rule isn't against attacking in guard mode. It's against attacking stacked in guard mode. You might as well allow the defender to stack his units.
EDIT: There's been a big misconception among people that there is no longer an elephant discount or that pre-Marian SPQR doesn't get a budget penalty any longer. This is flat out INCORRECT. There is no enforcement of the discount and budget penalty; you and your opponent must decide before the game whether or not you wish to implement such mechanisms as a discount, penalty, or anything really. Players new to the field or new to EB altogether may never have read this thread in the future and may never know of such possible discounts and penalties as a result (not to mention it is no longer on the site), and that's sad, sure, but people are technically allowed free reign over their tourney games from now on. There is no limitation to what you can do. I was discussing this with a fellow member and the best analogy available is that of intercourse. Truly. As long as it is consensual between both players or both teams, then it is allowed. Simply play the battle as you normally would, with whatever rules it is you all agreed on, a victor emerges, send in the replay, and voila, your score is updated. Simple as that. No more "Your rules favour this faction" or "Your rules favour that faction". No more...
Apázlinemjó
06-20-2010, 09:45
I wonder how many matches there will be without rules. I've already imagined the lobby chat window:
"Userdefault: I WANT 50K CUZ I CAN HAS ARMOURED MAGIC PONIES!
Alaskaischinese: Nai, I want to go with 49,9k, because I wantz 9 chevroned Polybianz...
Userdefault: BUT POLYBZ ROMANS ARE OP, UR A CHEATER, I DOESNT WANTS FIGHT AGAINST THEM!
Alaskaischinese: Whai? You can have armoured magic ponies, I can have 300like Polybianz. It's fairz.
Userdefault: NOOOO, I SEARCHES FOR A PLAYER WHO DONT GO ROME!
Vartan: Oh snap."
Edit: The rules were balanced, act like a dictator, kill the whiners!
antisocialmunky
06-20-2010, 13:00
To be quit honest, that's fine except that I would still want the rules pertaining to illegal movement to apply. You know how I am.
To be quit honest, that's fine except that I would still want the rules pertaining to illegal movement to apply. You know how I am.
You guys love misunderstanding or what? Fair Play Rules Violations are still persecuted. The only thing that's changed are the AC rules, from rules to compositions. You make the call now. The budgets are still there. Choose to use them or choose another budget if you wish. Nobody cares. You do the playing, we do the adjudicating. We don't regulate your gameplay, we regulate fairplay. Simple enough?
P.S. Munky you need to leave the network by choosing Leave Network option in Hamachi. Thank you.
MisterFred
06-20-2010, 20:34
You took it upon yourself to set the fair play rules by starting the website. No problem there. But you couldn't handle the pressure of people suggesting changes or things they were unhappy with, so you chucked out the idea of standardized rules for the tournament entirely. Tournament rules are things that EVERYONE HAS TO ABIDE BY in the tournament. There is no such thing as an "optional" rule. There are options, and there are rules, but they are NOT the same thing. As you state yourself on the website, the following are the ONLY rules for which you intend the jury to disqualify games:
Fair Play Rules
No run-throughs. This includes both infantry as well as cavalry. The only exception is when you are withdrawing your cavalry when they are surrounded, or when the unit is in loose formation (which ruins the engagement A.I.).
No charging cavalry through your own men. You can charge them either together or infantry after. The only exception is if the act is reasonably accidental in the heat of battle or very minor in effect (i.e. does not kill many soldiers and/or cause a rout).
No moving elephants or chariots through your own men. In real life, elephants and chariots would kill any men in their path. This is not represented in the RTW engine, so do not do this in-game.
No stacking your units on top of each other except when attacking. Only up to 25% of a unit may be covered by other units. You can have attacking units overlapping to simulate reinforcements, the crushing of a major charge, or to break guard-mode units. Archers or slingers firing do not count as "attacking" units. Attacking units must be units not in guard mode, attacking in melee. The exception to the exception is that no phalanx unit may overlap another phalanx unit by more than 25%, even if attacking.
No flaming arrows (also called "fire arrows"). This usage falls under the banner of Exploitation more often than it does History.
No moving cavalry through units with the phalanx ability, whether phalanx mode is on or off, unless the phalanx is off and in loose formation. Real cavalry would be killed by the pikes.
Everything else is an option, not a rule. So if I say you got rid of the Post-Marian penalty and the elephant discount, you DID. They are no longer rules enforced upon the tournament. Same with the mnai amounts. Options, not tournament rules. You decided to discard the more elaborate tournament rules in place, keeping only the small set of fair play maneuvering rules so you wouldn't have to be constantly swayed by arguments about what is more fair. Which is ok, but don't pretend its something else.
You're right Fred. Don't forget, though, that you may play with any "rules" you wish to. As of right now, I see that the only obstacle to your (or anybody's) wishes only exists when the opponent states that he/she won't play with your conditions. What then?
In other words: Right now, as of the current revision, the only enforced rules are the Fair-Play Rules, along with minor things like upgrades and team play. There are other types of rules that aren't enforced. One type is Army Compositions. Those aren't rules in and of themselves, but they are ACs from which players can choose. They have rules within their own subsets that state how many of each unit type one may have. The civilized and steppe ACs are still around. The Free AC is possibly temporary (as people are testing, as they should; I tested today myself) as it has no limitations (begs the question: why don't everybody use FAC?). I did FAC Hayasdan against CAC SPQR in which the legions had only some slinger and javcav support. My FAC army was 4 Heavy Cav Lancers, 4 Scythian Horse Archers, and 12 Steppe Riders. The general, thracian cav, and slingers were murdered. Then the helpless legions huddled together only to be smashed and broken in a mere couple charges. That is ridiculous, wouldn't you say?
At any rate, do you say there is an argument for why other types of rules should be enforced?
MisterFred
06-20-2010, 23:07
Sure there's an argument for it. It goes something like: the 200-man Roman units are costed like other factions 160-man units, so because the costs are imbalanced they need a penalty for other factions to really be competitive. Or, phalanxes are so difficult to kill, a hellenic faction can simply buy 20 medium phalanxes and walk cavalry factions across the map with no real threat of dying. Now these arguments may not be correct, but they're based on the premise that enforced restrictions and rules will make the tournament not only funner, but a more legitimate reflection of tactical creativity and skill.
I don't know that I agree with those arguments in particular, but there's probably some I can be convinced by.
As for making up guidelines on the fly there's two problems with that. First, the practical problem of potential extended negotiating period of each player setting forth proposed rules, explaining them, passing over lists of what constitutes an 'elite' Roman unit, etc. etc. etc. Impractical. For a tournament in which opponents will regularly change a lack of complex rules doesn't mean each pair of players gets to tailor-make their game to their ideal ruleset, it means only maneuvering rules and whatever random mnai level is chosen applies. Second, even if some groups of players add an elephant discount, or forbid FAC or don't, that becomes like telling World Cup teams that some matches will be on a grass field, others will be played by indoor soccer rules, and points from each are worth the same.
Not a significant problem if you like both field soccer and indoor soccer, but some would say it takes away from the legitimacy of the affair.
Edit: and no, your test isn't necessarily ridiculous until you test it again with the same Hai army composition, and the Roman player takes Triarii, light cavalry, and better archers as his main force. I would hope that heavy cavalry has an effective charge against swords units. In EB, for it to prevail for cost against solid spear units would be a better test of how overpowered it is.
In other words, tourney players should be made to choose between civ or steppe ACs.
EDIT: Gaius and Tex, reminding you for the bazillionth time now: Leave the Network, don't park your offline computer on it.
antisocialmunky
06-20-2010, 23:48
The main argument against using different rules is that you can't compare wins and games because you are not using a consistent ruleset.
I think I said this earlier but I think that something like 24-28K with a 4K elephant credit and no restrictions would work better. 20 unit armies are just kinda hard to balance since it handicaps some of the spammier factions. For example, @36K, Imperial Rome can bring ~3500 men and Gaul can bring about ~3500 men. At 24K, Imperial Rome can bring a max of 2400 Legionaires and Gaul can still bring 3500 men. At 36K, I can bring 3 Kataphracts and still have a good army. At 24K, if I bring 3 Kataphracts, I just spent half my money and can't even afford a 20 unit army.
Lower money also encourages less cheesy armies(wall of nudists, wall of Indian Sword axes) and better use of every single unit as well as more historical armies.
The main argument against using different rules is that you can't compare wins and games because you are not using a consistent ruleset.
I think I said this earlier but I think that something like 24-28K with a 4K elephant credit and no restrictions would work better. 20 unit armies are just kinda hard to balance since it handicaps some of the spammier factions. For example, @36K, Imperial Rome can bring ~3500 men and Gaul can bring about ~3500 men. At 24K, Imperial Rome can bring a max of 2400 Legionaires and Gaul can still bring 3500 men. At 36K, I can bring 3 Kataphracts and still have a good army. At 24K, if I bring 3 Kataphracts, I just spent half my money and can't even afford a 20 unit army.
Lower money also encourages less cheesy armies(wall of nudists, wall of Indian Sword axes) and better use of every single unit as well as more historical armies.
You speak of money? Just make sure you know how to leave the networks. We already have a 24k model. 24k and 36k. 24k is a tourney model. And there can never be consistent rulesets as long as there are at least two ACs, but it looks like we can't avoid that and make it harder for some nations. That's why we have Civ and Steppe ACs. What doesn't make sense is the elephant credit, or any credit at all. A penalty may make sense, but not a credit, not if only one side can use it (budgets are supposed to be equal for both sides).
Apázlinemjó
06-21-2010, 00:14
The main argument against using different rules is that you can't compare wins and games because you are not using a consistent ruleset.
I think I said this earlier but I think that something like 24-28K with a 4K elephant credit and no restrictions would work better. 20 unit armies are just kinda hard to balance since it handicaps some of the spammier factions. For example, @36K, Imperial Rome can bring ~3500 men and Gaul can bring about ~3500 men. At 24K, Imperial Rome can bring a max of 2400 Legionaires and Gaul can still bring 3500 men. At 36K, I can bring 3 Kataphracts and still have a good army. At 24K, if I bring 3 Kataphracts, I just spent half my money and can't even afford a 20 unit army.
Lower money also encourages less cheesy armies(wall of nudists, wall of Indian Sword axes) and better use of every single unit as well as more historical armies.
Between 30-40k is more balanced, going under or over this budget will cause mass-mass-mass levy spam or mass-mass-mass elite spam. If you buy 3 katatanks at 24k then you will have ~10k left, so what will a steppe player choose? Mass levy HAs. At 24k going with Post-Marians is suicide as they don't have that wide roster with very cheap non-mercenrary units as other factions. Barbarians already have hard times against steppe armies, at 24k they won't be able to buy units with good armours and the levy HAs will eat them. Of course with a hellenistic faction at 24k, you won't have problem, just buy 15+ Thuerophoroi or levy phalangities and you won the game.
I haven't seen nudist nor guild warrior spam nowadays. They are quite expensive and a waste of mnai to bring more than 1-2 to the battlefield anyway.
Looks like we're back in business.
Those playing 24k games (aka Low Money Games, LMG) have no unit type limitations. The only limitation y'all have is 6 mercs (in case they're better than your factionals). High Money Games (HMG, 36k) players must still adhere to Steppe or Civilized AC rules. Do y'all think one should know beforehand which AC the enemy is using or should that be a surprise? (i.e. Should it be stated pre-battle)
I think it should be known. Only a fool like Crassus takes a short range infantry heavy force to the steppe, and oh wait! Thats why he died! :)
Apázlinemjó
06-21-2010, 20:01
I think it should be known. Only a fool like Crassus takes a short range infantry heavy force to the steppe, and oh wait! Thats why he died! :)
Ohh, it's a bit different in multiplayer battles Mr. Tanit!
Ohh, it's a bit different in multiplayer battles Mr. Tanit!
It's not that different actually, considering how overpowered cavalry is in the game. Rome engine: priceless. Play on large for okay battles.
Apázlinemjó
06-21-2010, 23:44
It's not that different actually, considering how overpowered cavalry is in the game. Rome engine: priceless. Play on large for okay battles.
Nah, you can use boxes!!!
antisocialmunky
06-22-2010, 00:25
Huge is where it is at. Cav is OP on large.
Cav is OP on huge. Go large or even lower for less OP cav. And use boxes and you'll lose. Ever been charged from all sides? Yeah.
antisocialmunky
06-22-2010, 03:51
How does the Rome balance work at 24K. Rome is ridiculously handicapped with cavalry but can demolish stuff with massed infantry. I just had the AI give me a close battle with a Celtic Hoplite + Axemen + Naked army when I was at 22K. Polybian isn't nearly as scary without their extra chevrons. They will almost instarout if you catch them out of position.
:-\ Dunno, should they stay at 24K? I think its feasible to beat Rome at 24K when they use their infantry spam army but it is difficult and somewhat boring(bring on the massed AP units!).
I keep running tests with the AI and it can usually nearly kill me with AP spam. So I think just this once, we should not handicap Rome.
How does the Rome balance work at 24K. Rome is ridiculously handicapped with cavalry but can demolish stuff with massed infantry. I just had the AI give me a close battle with a Celtic Hoplite + Axemen + Naked army when I was at 22K. Polybian isn't nearly as scary without their extra chevrons. They will almost instarout if you catch them out of position.
:-\ Dunno, should they stay at 24K? I think its feasible to beat Rome at 24K when they use their infantry spam army but it is difficult and somewhat boring(bring on the massed AP units!).
I keep running tests with the AI and it can usually nearly kill me with AP spam. So I think just this once, we should not handicap Rome.
Pre-Marian SPQR still has a 33k budget in High Money Games. High Money Game players must adhere to either CAC or SAC and must state before game if they are using SAC. Low Money Game players are not discriminated against for any reason, and may use all of the 24k (including Pre-Marian SPQR). The only restriction for 24k is 6 mercs. Upgrade Limit of 1 chev and no atk/def upgrades applies no matter which budget you use. Chariot and ele must still be announced, no matter the budget size used.
EDIT: Please leave the Godforsaken networks when you're doing using them. I just had to remove 2 more...
I've joined the eb online #1 network and would like to test if it works for me. After a test I can decide if and with wich faction...
EDIT: Please leave the Godforsaken networks when you're doing using them. I just had to remove 2 more...
Perhaps I'm lacking some english competence to understand that... what is meant by this? Leaving when doing using?
The Celtic Viking
06-22-2010, 16:03
There's a limit to how many people can be in a Hamachi network at the same time. If you just turn Hamachi off when you're done using it, you will still be holding up one spot on the network. Vartan *can* kick you out himself, but it's much easier if everyone actively choose to leave the network themselves. Just right-click the network and choose the obvious "leave this network" option before you turn Hamachi off.
Ok, so one need to klick "leave this network" instead of just "disconnect"?
The Celtic Viking
06-22-2010, 17:03
Exactly.
Thank you Celtic Viking for pointing that out for Kival. Also, Kival I'd be happy to sign you up, so whenever you're ready just let me know what faction you wish to use. You can even sign up in July, but don't forget this: You may only change factions before the start of the month, so if you do sign up in July then your faction choice is final. Good luck.
antisocialmunky
06-23-2010, 13:24
Hey vartan, I've come across a new type of pushing tactic for hoplites and need to know if it is considered legal. I'll be on later and show you if you have time.
Apázlinemjó
06-23-2010, 14:15
Hey vartan, I've come across a new type of pushing tactic for hoplites and need to know if it is considered legal. I'll be on later and show you if you have time.
Ohoho, I would like to see it too!
In the meantime can you at least please send me a PM with a vivid description of it? In other words:
Tell me the actual steps you take, the actions the clicks and whatnot that you do to accomplish this new move and then tell me the results. That is, do you lose men, does he lose formation, and be specific about who you refer to when you refer to them. I'm not really as free to test online as I'd like to...thanks.
antisocialmunky
06-23-2010, 23:22
Its easier to show you since isn't just an insta-win tactic. It just maximizes the performance of attacking hoplite-type units against unwary players. Under the current rules for attacking, it is perfectly legal. I'd just like to run it past the jury first. Maybe I'll just make a SP replay since the AI is sorta-competent at infantry only battles.
VikingPower
06-24-2010, 00:03
Hello there.
Vicious-Little-Noob wants to play as the Lusotana faction. Sign me in.
SlickNicaG69
06-24-2010, 22:53
Post Marian Rome G!
I'm glad to see that everyone is playing Romans :sneaky:
Post Marian Rome G!
Don't forget to read the page entitled Online Etiquette.
antisocialmunky
06-25-2010, 05:23
Does anyone want to get a fixed MP file with missing units added in? Its kinda a pain I know but it would be nice to have peltastai and toxotai to use at 24K where every mnai counts.
I know we had one and that I think you were working on it vartan. I think there were also fixes for Bruttian Infantry and Pontic Thorakitai in there since the wrong values were put into the EDU(I believe the stat fix thread is at the Center).
Does anyone want to get a fixed MP file with missing units added in? Its kinda a pain I know but it would be nice to have peltastai and toxotai to use at 24K where every mnai counts.
I know we had one and that I think you were working on it vartan. I think there were also fixes for Bruttian Infantry and Pontic Thorakitai in there since the wrong values were put into the EDU(I believe the stat fix thread is at the Center).
If anybody ever bothered, they would also have to email (contact@ebonline.tk) with details of all the changes. Just letting y'all know because those details would have to be on the site, public.
-----------------------------
I've received an email from a concerned player. I would like y'all to discuss his concerns and share your thoughts.
-----------------------------
Just a few issues I thought needed to be addressed:
1) If medium cavalry = heavy cavalry, how can you justify making any cavalry with > 24 charge light cavalry and, hence, not medium/heavy cavalry...
2) Why are 'Elite' Pikemen not considered "elite...", Why dont non-SPQR factions have elite units?
3) Any unit that is raised in a factions regional MIC should be an allied/merc unit... face it... EB is the closest reference we got... stick to it please...
Intranetusa
06-25-2010, 05:48
I'd like to signup whenever I get EB multiplayer working... :D
I'd like to signup whenever I get EB multiplayer working... :D
With all those changes to your EDU, I don't think you'll have an easy time! haha. Backups are always great, yeah!
EDIT: Just PM in case of frustrating technical difficulties.
Apázlinemjó
06-25-2010, 10:29
-----------------------------
I've received an email from a concerned player. I would like y'all to discuss his concerns and share your thoughts.
-----------------------------
Just a few issues I thought needed to be addressed:
1) If medium cavalry = heavy cavalry, how can you justify making any cavalry with > 24 charge light cavalry and, hence, not medium/heavy cavalry...
2) Why are 'Elite' Pikemen not considered "elite...", Why dont non-SPQR factions have elite units?
3) Any unit that is raised in a factions regional MIC should be an allied/merc unit... face it... EB is the closest reference we got... stick to it please...
1; I don't really understand this. In the MP rules medium is clearly not equal with heavy, medium cavalry is not restricted, only the heavy. And a "stat" example: Prodromoi is a medium cavalry (although they are one of the strongest med. cav. in the game), they have nice charge (34) and attack (3), but their lack of defence (11 0 8) and morale (12) make them easy prey. The Scythian Nobles on the other hand are heavies, they have slightly higher morale (13) and charge (35), higher attack (4), better secondary (longsword wit 0.225 lethality) and much better defence (12 3 9) compared to Prodromoi.
2; This question is easy to answer, elites are expensive in all factions, except in the SPQR. That's why we have the "elitist" rule on the Romani, because they could field easily a full elite army with 36k. If you play a hellenistic faction and want to bring elite pikemen, you sacrifice your hammer (heavy cavalry) or the flankers (spearmen or heavy infantry) for that. Or if you just want to spam, then the cheapest elite pikemen are ~3k, so you can bring max 12 to the field with 36k budget. But this would be a suicide move, since if you form a box with your pikemen, your opponent, who has the numbers, will encircle you and you will insta-lose. Or if you attack with the pikemen, a few AP units and heavy cavalry could make short work of your flanks (since pikemen are not good at killing, you don't have a chance to bring your opponent's center down before that), and then your army is doomed. My point is, there is no reason the restrict other factions on the elite units.
3; That's a bit problematic. We use the EB unit list, because it consists mostly the factional units and it's easily accessible by everyone. But if someone has the time to separate the factionals from the regionals, then go for it.
Does anyone want to get a fixed MP file with missing units added in? Its kinda a pain I know but it would be nice to have peltastai and toxotai to use at 24K where every mnai counts.
I know we had one and that I think you were working on it vartan. I think there were also fixes for Bruttian Infantry and Pontic Thorakitai in there since the wrong values were put into the EDU(I believe the stat fix thread is at the Center).
I would like to get a fixed Pontic Thorakitai and a not inferior Scythed chariot compared to AS's also, but I fear if the EDU is touched it will generate arguments between the players.
antisocialmunky
06-25-2010, 12:10
The problem with the heavy/medium distinction has always been there. There is no good way to deal with it because it is largely by play and the two categories blend into each other. Another problem is that it is usually 'relative' to another cav unit. Like X cav gets beaten by all these other cav and therefore is medium or vice versa.
My opnion on this is that (since I made the list anyway) that the best medium charge cavalry in the game feels like Indo-Iranian cavalry and you should make it so that any unit that can beat that unit is heavy cavalry.
As for the multiplayer EDU:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5682708&highlight=pontic+thorakitai#post5682708 is the Pontic Thorakitai modification. I couldn't find the Bruttium infantry fix but I think that got ran by Watchman as well. If you can confirm that you did a fix fro the Bruttian infantry, that would be great.
I can't find the original unit fix muiltiplayer edu but I suspect that ACS or someone might have it. It wouldn't be hard to make. If anyone has some time to add Peltastai, Toxotai, and Thessylian Cav to KH, it woudl be very much appreciated.(3 lines of code) If all the players can come up with a list of missing units for their faction, that would be very helpful as well. We already know of a small problem with Hai.
Edit: I guess I will take care of it. I've readded the missing parts of the KH Roster and it doesn't seem like it breaks the game. If you have any suspect unit stat stuff, you should ask it here. I think changing unit stats is a bit extreme and shouldn't be warranted unless the unit is complete garbage.
If you know of any missing units, I will gladly add them and put the EDU up at the beginning of the tournement.
Edit2: Is there anyway we can get Tosa or someone to put this on the main page? Also would anyone be interested in some MP Faction Guides? I may be able to write 1 or 2 for phalanx and barbs. They would detail unit composition and I guess techniques like phalanx vs phalanx and proper use of cavalry.
My turn:
Just a few issues I thought needed to be addressed:
1) If medium cavalry = heavy cavalry, how can you justify making any cavalry with > 24 charge light cavalry and, hence, not medium/heavy cavalry...
2) Why are 'Elite' Pikemen not considered "elite...", Why dont non-SPQR factions have elite units?
3) Any unit that is raised in a factions regional MIC should be an allied/merc unit... face it... EB is the closest reference we got... stick to it please...
My answers:
1) The only cavalry that is restricted at all (and restrictions only apply at the 36k level, minus merc cap) are the heavy cavalry units. These of course are: A) those that are designated as heavy cavalry by their titles, B) those that are obviously heavy due to their visuals/stats/description (case in point: Armenian Cata-archers), and C) those cav (usually designated as mediums) that are borderline and considered heavy due to their visuals/stats/description (case in point: Hellenic Medium Cavalry).
Note Regarding #1 Above: I was being hypocritically inconsistent [sic], unintentionally to say the least, regarding the status of the Scythian Noble Cavalry. I just checked the factional lists on the EB Online site and apparently I had removed the Heavy Cav marker from the Sauro's Scythian N. Cav but had forgotten to do so for the Pontic Scythian N. Cav. I guess it'd be a mistake to call them anything but heavy, so I just now put back the Heavy Cav marker on the N. Cav in Sauro's list (sorry gamegeek2, but I guess they are heavy; please let me know/refresh my memory regarding why I took off the heavy cav marker, you know my memory ailment!)
EDIT #1: I posted this without answering 2 and 3! Ahh, talk about ailment!
2) I suppose I would have to answer this similarly to how it was answered by fellow members, due to how similarly my idea is. Simply put, really, you can't afford more than, say, 10 or 15 percent of your army being trained elite men as a non-SPQR faction. Some more, some less. But in general you can only get so much, and of course I am referring to the 36k level. At 24k you'd just have to be kidding me (your men would get swamped). The SPQR, however, can afford a fullstack of elites, no questions asked. This, of course, raises some eyebrows, and some questions indeed! But I did not want to restrict the SPQR heavily, so I gave them a 40 percent window of opportunity (8 elites in a 20 unit army is 40 percent; I consider that a lot, but I shall allow it for tourney, at least this time).
3) This is the concern with which I am most closely and wholeheartedly in agreement. Except for certain cases, which are obviously...(ok I'll just use) inconsistent (this time). For instance, look at Eastern Slingers. They are available to say, the Hai, at certain provinces by way of the regional barracks (the local, non-factional one). Here's the problem with that: the unit is factional. But I guess most people would catch your drift. It takes time and effort, much appreciated, and this process will be slow.
And a final note for those who will be playing in the tournament, let it be known:
I'll post again in a few days stating that the rules on the site are set for the July tournament and that they are fixed at least for that month. Also, we are using the RTW 1.5 EB 1.2 with no changes to the EDU for this month's tournament. I understand, there are a great number of concerns regarding unit availability, including the ever so apparent Greek units unavailable to the Hellenic League. Even if I added in those Greek units, everyone in the tournament itself (at least) would have to download that EDU file, backup their old MP edu, overwrite the original in order to be able to play using those units. Of course, during the course of the tournament and many more to come we should be making those modification (not referring to stats, but availability issues; stats may arise and they would presumably have to be clerical mistakes and not subjective ones). Thanks and please reply if you've more concerns/questions and whatnot.
EDIT #2: I am really concerned now. I just re-read The Guild's forum rules and multiplayer cheating, mentioning it and any players involved is highly discouraged and just plain not allowed. What are the alternatives people? I agree with the forum rule so this isn't anything about what's "wrong" or "right" with the rule. This is about our tournaments. So, people, we can safely assume that you are not allowed to post your conflicts for the jury to adjudicate in this thread. Or anywhere in this forum. Well...that just sucks. I guess for now, at least temporarily, you can send me a private message with the replay and an explanation of the conflict. And even then there are a few problems. Firstly, you would also have to copy paste that (not too hard) to the other Jury members. Secondly, your opponent also needs to be able to state his case. In other words, all of our Jury members would have to hear from him, too. This is starting to smell bad. Anyone have any suggestions for a hopeless young man?
antisocialmunky
06-25-2010, 23:25
You have 1 week until the tournement and they have to visit your website anyway. You have more than enough time. We can provide copies of both the original and the modified for convenience with only the missing units fix. I don't think its too much to ask players who have already installed hamachi and every single hotfix to copy 1 single file.
Besides this would be pretty much an unofficial MP EDU Hotfix. The difference between 1.4K peltastai and 1.2K peltastai is actually a pretty big deal when you have to deal with barbarians at 24K. :(
The Celtic Viking
06-26-2010, 17:39
3) This is the concern with which I am most closely and wholeheartedly in agreement. Except for certain cases, which are obviously...(ok I'll just use) inconsistent (this time). For instance, look at Eastern Slingers. They are available to say, the Hai, at certain provinces by way of the regional barracks (the local, non-factional one). Here's the problem with that: the unit is factional. But I guess most people would catch your drift. It takes time and effort, much appreciated, and this process will be slow.
I've started working on this, and so far I've completed this type of list for the Arverni. I'll continue with other factions later.
Arverni Factionals:
Teceitos
Kluddacorii
Bagaudas
Lugoae
Botroas
Gaeroas
Uirodusios
Gaelaiche
Boii Cingetos
Bataroas
Milnaht
Mori Gaesum
Neitos
Pictone Neitos
Solduros
Gaesatae
Sotaroas
Iaosatae
Brihentin
Cidainh
Leuce Epos
Taramonnos
Caturige Gaedann
Batacorii
Arjos
Noricene Gaecori
Remi Mairepos
Gaisolitho Aljod
Marxolitho Wolxiskod
I've started working on this, and so far I've completed this type of list for the Arverni. I'll continue with other factions later.
Arverni Factionals:
Teceitos
Kluddacorii
Bagaudas
Lugoae
Botroas
Gaeroas
Uirodusios
Gaelaiche
Boii Cingetos
Bataroas
Milnaht
Mori Gaesum
Neitos
Pictone Neitos
Solduros
Gaesatae
Sotaroas
Iaosatae
Brihentin
Cidainh
Leuce Epos
Taramonnos
Caturige Gaedann
Batacorii
Arjos
Noricene Gaecori
Remi Mairepos
Gaisolitho Aljod
Marxolitho Wolxiskod
No no no no no. That'll take forever. Besides, if we go with only those units that you can recruit with factional barracks, nations like Saba or Luso will only have a number of units less than the number of fingers on your two hands. I considered that this past day or two...we can't do that. We just need to go through each faction removing non-factionals. For instance, I've removed Lucanians and some others from SPQR because those are allies, they should be counted toward the merc limit. Also, Pontus currently has Armenian Skirmisher Cav as factional. That needs to go. And similar for all nations.
Apázlinemjó
06-26-2010, 19:13
Also, Pontus currently has Armenian Skirmisher Cav as factional. That needs to go. And similar for all nations.
We don't have them in the game roster, we have Asiatikoi Hippokontistai (sp?) instead.
We don't have them in the game roster, we have Asiatikoi Hippokontistai (sp?) instead.
Oh okay. Well there's nothing wrong with something being on the roster. It's a matter of will it be counted as merc or not...
EDIT #1: Website is finally updated. Everyone who is playing in tourney needs to get the installer for the modified EDU. It's located in the Getting Started page. Pre-Marian SPQR on 36k still has a 33k restricted budget and has NO elite restriction. Elephants and chariots need NOT be announced beforehand. I don't know why some of you announce your Rome reform. You can play with whatever reform you want. You can keep changing your reform. You don't need to announce it. Well, that's all I can remember for now. Also, pre-Marians, look at the factional list cause those Italians like Ligurians Lucanians Bruttians or whatever they're called are non-factional. I think Samnites are the only factionals from the non-Romans. That's all (I think). I would read through the site during some spare time. Thanks y'all for being so cooperative...
EDIT #2: To the two people who downloaded the EB Online MP EDU Installer and the one person who downloaded the Vanilla EB MP EDU Installer, my sincerest apologies. Please delete those installers. They were not made correctly and install without the correct sub-directories. I will edit this post again once I've corrected the installers...
EDIT #3: I have corrected the installers. Don't forget the way to install it (it says in the installation directions). You point to the directory where you installed Rome: Total War, so for instance, C:\Rome - Total War. Also, when you've done this, make sure to go to the Trivial Script and either run using multiplayer option or just choose multiplayer and click Save & Exit at the Configuration window.
EDIT #4: Some more rules to keep in mind in case you don't check the site often:
Budget
The amount of money a general has available to spend on creating his army is one of the most important aspects of campaigning overall. EB Online offers players of monthly tournaments two options:
Low Money (24k)
24.000 mnai
Special Rule for Low Money Games
Low Money games have no caps on unit types (e.g. number of cavalry, infantry, missiles, etc.; there are no required army compositions). The only limit is 6 mercenaries/allies as opposed to 5.
High Money (36k)
36.000 mnai
Special Rule for pre-Marian SPQR
Pre-Marian SPQR can only use 33k.
Faction-Specific Rules
Pre-Marian SPQR may only use 33k for High Money Games.
Pre-Marian SPQR, whether for Low or High Money Games, may only field a maximum of 8 elite units. This, in a 20-unit army, would still comprise a full 40% of the army.
Carthage, whether for Low or High Money Games, has a special merc limit of 15 units due to its historical nature of fielding large amounts of hired arms.
MisterFred
06-27-2010, 08:46
Here's the game we were talking about:
http://www.filefront.com/16879979/Crazyhugeelebattle.rpy/
If you like to watch Legionnaires getting stepped on, this is the file for you! Not super notable strategy wise, although its always a pleasure watching ASM maneuver infantry. There's a hill to the left of ASM which is great for watching the lines maneuver before the initial confrontation.
Apázlinemjó
06-27-2010, 11:47
Pre-Marian SPQR on 36k still has a 33k restricted budget and has NO elite restriction.
"Pre-Marian SPQR, whether for Low or High Money Games, may only field a maximum of 8 elite units. This, in a 20-unit army, would still comprise a full 40% of the army."
Which one now?
And, the installler only overwrites your old EDU right? (I would like to make a safe copy before I install the modified one.)
EDIT: @MisterFred: Checked the replay, it's a nice victory. The Romani players weren't really in synchrone as far as I tell, they ignored eachother on the battlefield. I find the lack of missile units at them interesting also. The attacking Roman legionaries in guard mode made my day by the way.
Which one now?
And, the installler only overwrites your old EDU right? (I would like to make a safe copy before I install the modified one.)
EDIT: @MisterFred: Checked the replay, it's a nice victory. The Romani players weren't really in synchrone as far as I tell, they ignored eachother on the battlefield. I find the lack of missile units at them interesting also. The attacking Roman legionaries in guard mode made my day by the way.
Pre-Marian SPQR (Camillan and Polybian) has a budget limit of 33k and an elite limit of 8 units (including mounted and dismounted). For Low Money Games they have 22k. I mistyped. Marian and Imperial SPQR has all 36k and 24k to use; also, they may have as many elites as they want, but they can still only field 1 First Cohort. I also recommend no more than 10 cohorts because...well, it's your game, not mine. Do as you wish.
And you don't need to make a backup. Do so if you wish, but I have the Vanilla EB MP EDU Installer under Optional Items on the Getting Started page. It replaces your EDU with the original one. Make sure to use Trivial Script to switch EDUs so it is made effective.
Apázlinemjó
06-27-2010, 18:39
And you don't need to make a backup. Do so if you wish, but I have the Vanilla EB MP EDU Installer under Optional Items on the Getting Started page. It replaces your EDU with the original one. Make sure to use Trivial Script to switch EDUs so it is made effective.
Done.
Anyway, had some runs with Pontikoi Thorakitai, they are not the worst unit in the Pontic roster now. They can handle Thureophoroi, although they still lose too many men in the process. Banged them against the original Thorakitai too, total disaster (tried with tight/loose formations, guard mode on/off, with more rows, etc). 1,9k is just too much for them, for this price I can get nearly a Galatikoi Kuarothoroi, who have .225 leth longswords and spears or a chevroned Thraikioi Peltastai.
Done.
Anyway, had some runs with Pontikoi Thorakitai, they are not the worst unit in the Pontic roster now. They can handle Thureophoroi, although they still lose too many men in the process. Banged them against the original Thorakitai too, total disaster (tried with tight/loose formations, guard mode on/off, with more rows, etc). 1,9k is just too much for them, for this price I can get nearly a Galatikoi Kuarothoroi, who have .225 leth longswords and spears or a chevroned Thraikioi Peltastai.
Well haven't you read history? You promised to do so when you installed EB. Looks like the Pontic heavy inf costs more historically and can't field as much. Well there you go. At least the modified EDU fixed their stats.
Apázlinemjó
06-27-2010, 21:09
Well haven't you read history? You promised to do so when you installed EB. Looks like the Pontic heavy inf costs more historically and can't field as much. Well there you go. At least the modified EDU fixed their stats.
Meh, most of the infos we have about Pontos are from Greek and Roman authors. Most of the units are from VI. Mithridates' timeframe. Most of EB Pontos' units are inferior to the counterparts. (Scytheds < Seleucid's Scytheds and Cidainh, Elite Phalanx < Every other elite phalanxes, Thorakitai < Greek Thorakitai, Pontos' heaviest cavalry (Khuveshavagan) < Greek and eastern heavies, Tindanotae < Gaesatae and etc.). But this is balanced by the wide roster, I admit.
Fluvius Camillus
06-28-2010, 00:00
I will represent my good old Arche Seleukeia!
~Fluvius
I will represent my good old Arche Seleukeia!
~Fluvius
My prayers go out to all of the players. Best of luck to all. You will need it. :laugh4: Good to have you in tournament Mr. Camillus.
EDIT: I'm starting to think we could have this rule where those who don't leave the network three times are kicked out of the tournament. What do you guys think? I think Machiavelli was right...
antisocialmunky
06-28-2010, 03:29
Kicking people can't be that hard.
Is the fix for the backwards spears of Gaut/Chauci spearmen included in the MP .edu?
Kicking people can't be that hard.
No, it isn't hard. But that's not the point. People really need to leave the networks. I mean it. I'm going to be overseas on a trip in a month's time and I won't get as much of a chance to kick people. So if somebody repeatedly refuses to leave the network then he'll get his just desserts.
Is the fix for the backwards spears of Gaut/Chauci spearmen included in the MP .edu?
Hi Kikaz. No. Does this backwards spear thing you mention actually affect the combat or do the units still cause damage to the enemy like any other unit?
P.S. If you will be playing tourney do not join #1. Join #2 (I'm referring to the networks).
They seem to be less effective. I fixed it simply by replacing their skeletons with Duguntiz so they hold the spear overhand... much better.
antisocialmunky
06-28-2010, 04:17
Can you mod some people so they can kick people for you?
They seem to be less effective. I fixed it simply by replacing their skeletons with Duguntiz so they hold the spear overhand... much better.
How do I do that and does it create a large imbalance?
Can you mod some people so they can kick people for you?
That's the problem with networks, whether remotely administered or temporarily made. The ones you make in the software itself you can only kick at your computer. You can't make people mods. For remotely administered networks, you can't kick with the software but you can kick anywhere in the world by logging into the Hamachi site. The only way another person could mod is if he/she had your login info.
How do I do that and does it create a large imbalance?
Not at all, just seems to improve hit detection. in my experiences, Gaut/Chauci spearmen always seemed to get significantly less kills then they should, the fix seems to ameliorate this. To do the fix, just copy Duguntiz skeletons (backup first) over the Chauci/Gaut ones (they share the same skeleton) in the .edu.
Not at all, just seems to improve hit detection. in my experiences, Gaut/Chauci spearmen always seemed to get significantly less kills then they should, the fix seems to ameliorate this. To do the fix, just copy Duguntiz skeletons (backup first) over the Chauci/Gaut ones (they share the same skeleton) in the .edu.
I know what skeletons are and what the EDU is but I don't know where the Duguntiz skeleton is located let alone how to switch the skeletons...
My bad, I thought it was located in the export_unit_descr.txt. It's in the descr_model_battle.txt. You copy the skeleton listed under Duguntiz and paste it over the one listed for (Skandzisku) Gaut and Chauci warbands.
My bad, I thought it was located in the export_unit_descr.txt. It's in the descr_model_battle.txt. You copy the skeleton listed under Duguntiz and paste it over the one listed for (Skandzisku) Gaut and Chauci warbands.
I found and replaced the Gaut Spearmen skeleton, but I can't find the Chauci Spearmen in the list. What is their name because the text files are so outdated when it comes to dating (or if not outdated, they are just inconsistent when it comes to naming convention between text file and in-game name)?
I found and replaced the Gaut Spearmen skeleton, but I can't find the Chauci Spearmen in the list. What is their name because the text files are so outdated when it comes to dating (or if not outdated, they are just inconsistent when it comes to naming convention between text file and in-game name)?
Ah, it appears they are conveniently combined into one (Habukoz=Chauci). That's it, all done.
Ah, it appears they are conveniently combined into one (Habukoz=Chauci). That's it, all done.
So by replacing the melee spear skeleton I won't be causing crashes or anything ridiculous like that? The game should work fine? I can't really test it right now, but I'm taking your word and updating the MP installer link on the website so that people can get the updated version...
Indeed, mine has no problems when using these models.
Indeed, mine has no problems when using these models.
Done. Repetition never hurts. People who will be participating in the tournament: Download and install the EB Online MP EDU Installer and play on the #2 server. I will post when you may start battling/submitting replays.
Some people are confused about the new EDU and what is an EDU, etc. The EDU is a text file that contains the stats (attack, defence and other values) for each unit in the game. The tournaments will be using a modified EDU. Here are the modifications verbatim from the installer located on the Getting Started page of EB Online website:
Please install into the root installation directory of Rome: Total War. For example, this may be C:\Rome - Total War.
Changes to the Europa Barbarorum Multiplayer EDU:
1. Added to the Koinon Hellenon multiplayer roster:
-- Hippeis Thessalikoi (Thessalian Heavy Cavalry)
-- Toxotai (Hellenic Archers)
-- Peltastai (Hellenic Heavy Skirmishers)
2. Pontikoi Thorakitai (Pontic Heavy Infantry)
-- Increased javelin attack from 6 to 8.
-- Decreased javelin range from 35 metres to 31.5 metres.
-- Increased shortsword lethality from 0.1 to 0.13.
-- Increased defence skill from 9 to 11.
-- Increased recruitment cost from 1813 to 1932.
3. Changes to the Europa Barbarorum Battle Model Description:
-- Replaced the secondary weapon skeletons of Druxtiz Xobugiska (Chauci Spearmen) and Druxtiz Goudiska (Gaut Spearmen) with that of Dugundiz (Germanic Spearmen).
To replace the original Europa Barbarorum Multiplayer EDU, run the Vanilla EB MP EDU Installer.
You need to install this modified EDU and use the Trivial Script Run Multiplayer option to switch to this new EDU if you are playing in the tournament. You can always switch back to original with the Vanilla EB MP EDU Installer located on the same site under "Optional Items" on the Getting Started page. (For that, you also have to switch EDU with Trivial Script to confirm it.)
Don't forget also, those playing in tournament must join network #2.
The tourney has begun. You can start submitting your replays. Please play with tourney players on network #2 as non-tourney players have priority in network #1. Tourney players have priority in #2 and I highly discourage non-tourney players to join #2 as it would only confuse the tourney players. They would (without fault) presume you to be a tourney player as well and battle you, only to find out that you aren't a tourney player and that their time was wasted. Thanks to all and I wish everyone the best. If people have half as much fun as they did a year ago then I can call this a good EB summer.
Best,
Vartan
Apázlinemjó
07-01-2010, 12:49
Wooohooo!
MisterFred
07-02-2010, 00:21
Woot Sauce!
The Saba steal a victory from the vicious Saka Rauka! No doubt such an anomaly will never be seen again! All credit to the great general Jirisys for the tight engagement.
OMGIwin.rpy (http://www.filefront.com/16932045/OMGIwin.rpy)
Clarification: Mr.Fred wins the point.
SlickNicaG69
07-02-2010, 01:21
Roma v. Mr. Fred. (http://www.filefront.com/16932591/T-Romev.Saba.rpy)
Winner: Roma.
The Sweboz of Kikaz have stolen a victory against the Saba of MisterFred. Twas a close game indeed! Good game MisterFred! And what a cluster **** at the end! http://www.filefront.com/16933283/TournamentSABA.rpy
MisterFred
07-02-2010, 03:32
Edit: Deleted by author after reconsideration.
Note: It seemed that i tried to run thro a germanic pike unit, but my men were actually chasing another routing one, i managed to stop them from running trough
That's no excuse for poor micromanagement. The first thing a player should work on when it comes to micromanagement is that which prevents violations of fair play rules (meant to repress exploitation of the engine). In other words, first thing you need to learn is that when your unit has guard mode off, it will chase its opposing unit if that unit starts to rout. This likely will cause your unit to run through enemy units, so you'll need to halt and reengage.
MisterFred
07-02-2010, 08:09
You're not always looking at that part of the battlefield when an enemy's unit routs, and after all, he did say he stopped them from running through.
Apázlinemjó
07-02-2010, 09:46
Is run through allowed with elephants? Because at the Rome vs Saba, the elephants ran through 2 full battelines to reach the third.
antisocialmunky
07-02-2010, 12:51
The routing bug is really annoying and it happens on epic battles where things are all over the place. Usually its not too bad unless the unit being run through is really thinly spread out. Unfortunate but unavoidable for the most part unless someone catches it.
Burebista
07-02-2010, 13:34
i do not think there is running through with elephants , maybe running over:))
Ghaust the Moor
07-02-2010, 14:59
I sadly have yet to finish moving so I can't start playing for another few days. Idk if this is important to tell you i just figured Id let you move
Aulus Caecina Severus
07-02-2010, 16:57
My 1st battle.
Pahlava(ACS) vs Romani(SlickNicaG69)
winner: Pahlava(ACS)
http://www.zshare.net/download/778943003ca6586a/
Is run through allowed with elephants? Because at the Rome vs Saba, the elephants ran through 2 full battelines to reach the third.
Elephants have nothing to do with run-throughs. They aren't infantry or horse cavalry. They are elephants. They step on people, so it's not actually running through to the rear line. It's taking everything on its way with it.
I sadly have yet to finish moving so I can't start playing for another few days. Idk if this is important to tell you i just figured Id let you move
Thanks but you don't have to mention it. You play (or not play) whenever you like. All we look for here on the thread are two things: 1) the replays from the winners of each tourney battle, and 2) the replays + explanations/complaints from the losing side if and when it comes up.
SlickNicaG69
07-02-2010, 18:37
I would like to officially appeal the game between ACS and I above (http://www.filefront.com/16940061/Appeal1.rpy). I would like to point out to the jury, as explanation, the violations I believe to have occurred. All the time #'s (out of ~1260000) are according to my replay.
*Used 7 Mercs: ( 4 Indo-Iranian Light Cav, 3 Medium Phalanx Mercs).
1) ~472000 - Run through a surround on my right flank. I manage to encircle him with my infantry, but he runs through my cavalry to escape... This leads to an easy countercharge and the rout of a unit of cavalry...
2) ~510000 - Oppenent's cavalry, being chased by my infantry, run through own skirmishers... I am not sure if they were in loose mode, but regardless, he engaged with his skirmishers without reforming, occupying my infantry unit and managing his cavalry to escape.
3) 495000 - Around this time I believe to have charged his left phalanx with my cavalry. Instead of relining up his units in the opposite direction, he merely attacks my rear-charging cavalry, nullifying its charge and causing many casualties. I state this one because, to me, it is extremely exploitative of the EB settings. A phalanx unit in EB, can only really be routed by a strong cavalry charge from the rear, as even a complete surround by infantry, will only cause it to fight to the death. Thus, how easy it can be to remove the one weakness that the game puts in for that unit! I don't think it would be wrong to do so when free at hand, but when engaged, it is too much.
4) 589000 - Run through his own cavalry, causing an instant rout of my units.
5) 649100 - Run through my infantry with cavalry.
6) 700337 - Run through his own cavalry.
7) 778432- Using slingers in loose mode again, greatly occupying my infantry.
8) 885000 - Slingers in loose formation melee.
*Used 7 Mercs: ( 4 Indo-Iranian Light Cav, 3 Medium Phalanx Mercs).
I know. He made this honest mistake the game after with MisterFred as he didn't know of the list peculiarities that we're having for July and August. This is enough to discount it.
2) ~510000 - Oppenent's cavalry, being chased by my infantry, run through own skirmishers... I am not sure if they were in loose mode, but regardless, he engaged with his skirmishers without reforming, occupying my infantry unit and managing his cavalry to escape.
I'll answer with a quote from the website:
No run-throughs. This includes both infantry as well as cavalry. The only exception is when you are withdrawing your cavalry when they are surrounded, or when the unit is in loose formation (which ruins the engagement A.I.).
You say he may have been in loose form, then that's fine. He would also be surrounded by your skirmishers and your inf on either side, so that's fine. Again, the merc mistake was enough, but just answering these points for future ref.
3) ~~?? - Around this time I believe to have charged his left phalanx with my cavalry. Instead of relining up his units in the opposite direction, he merely attacks my rear-charging cavalry, nullifying its charge and causing many casualties. I state this one because, to me, it is extremely exploitative of the EB settings. A phalanx unit in EB, can only really be routed by a strong cavalry charge from the rear, as even a complete surround by infantry, will only cause it to fight to the death. Thus, how easy it can be to remove the one weakness that the game puts in for that unit! I don't think it would be wrong to do so when free at hand, but when engaged, it is too much.
This is essentially an engine problem. Until the dwarf programmers at EB Online release our new battle engine, please understand that RTW engine has problems such as rear of units, like phalanxes, reflecting charges from cav (thanks ASM for pointing this out to me, always the best ASM!) If you mean he turned pikes and attacked your cav, then that's wrong, sure, because he was already facing the opposite direction when you charged. It wouldn't really give him enough time to turn, even if he was engaged with an enemy inf unit, so that was wrong on the part of the pikes.
4) 589000 - Run through his own cavalry, causing an instant rout of my units.
That's right, you can only charge cav together, not charge one, then charge a second one through your own units, whether they be your inf or your cav.
5) 649100 - Run through his own infantry with cavalry.
That's fine, he wasn't charging his own men, he was just maneuvering his cavalry.
6) 700337 - Run through his own cavalry.
Be a little more specific next time.
7) 778432- Using slingers in loose mode again, greatly occupying my infantry.
I guess you could learn a thing or two. ACS is a smart and clever player.
8) 885000 - Slingers in loose formation melee.
You just said that. And what's to keep slingers or any dismounted troops from fighting in loose formation? All the better for you. Easy slaughter.
Apázlinemjó
07-02-2010, 19:35
Elephants have nothing to do with run-throughs. They aren't infantry or horse cavalry. They are elephants. They step on people, so it's not actually running through to the rear line. It's taking everything on its way with it.
What about chariots? :O
SlickNicaG69
07-02-2010, 19:41
*Also, @ 554000 - Oppenent's engaged cavalry ran through my own line of infantry (in tight formation) twice on the same unit. This eventually led to the cavalry run-through @ 589000.
*About the skirmisher runthrough, I understood the second part of the rule u stated in #2 to mean that cavalry may only run through enemy units if they're in loose mode. Otherwise, it would be legal to do a full scale charge through one's own loose-mode line infantry... Clear exploit.
*About #5, I meant my infantry.
*Also, he had a total 13 infantry, out of a max 10 allowed (8 slingers, 3 phalanxes, 2 spearmen).
*Also, @ 554000 - Oppenent's engaged cavalry ran through my own line of infantry (in tight formation) twice on the same unit. This eventually led to the cavalry run-through @ 589000.
*About the skirmisher runthrough, I understood the second part of the rule u stated in #2 to mean that cavalry may only run through enemy units if they're in loose mode. Otherwise, it would be legal to do a full scale charge through one's own loose-mode line infantry... Clear exploit.
*About #5, I meant my infantry.
*Also, he had a total 13 infantry, out of a max 10 allowed (8 slingers, 3 phalanxes, 2 spearmen).
Sore looser :clown::shame:
Edit: Poor fred:no:
~Jirisys (YOU GOT ZERO POINTS SLICK! DEAL WITH IT!:clown:)
*Also, @ 554000 - Oppenent's engaged cavalry ran through my own line of infantry (in tight formation) twice on the same unit. This eventually led to the cavalry run-through @ 589000.
*About the skirmisher runthrough, I understood the second part of the rule u stated in #2 to mean that cavalry may only run through enemy units if they're in loose mode. Otherwise, it would be legal to do a full scale charge through one's own loose-mode line infantry... Clear exploit.
*About #5, I meant my infantry.
*Also, he had a total 13 infantry, out of a max 10 allowed (8 slingers, 3 phalanxes, 2 spearmen).
Enough is enough. The game doesn't count. It never did.
EDIT: Updated OP.
antisocialmunky
07-03-2010, 01:50
So charging through one's own loose skirmisher is illegal whether they be in loose or not? Also what about the standard practice of slamming 2 cavalry wings together(as we usually do). I guess that counts as stacked units right?(Your cav loses a fair amount of charge in the process so I couldn't care either way)
What about the tactics I use where I line up 5 cav units behind each other, have them enter run from back to front so they end up stacked and have then slam into infantry all at the same time?
@Slick - You are lucky he didn't just go massed Infantry Archer and just sit there so he can shoot you to death.
I've purged the thread of unnecessary discussion and name-calling. Mind your manners, please.
antisocialmunky
07-03-2010, 16:29
2 points
http://www.filefront.com/16949815/ASMwNoob.rpy
http://www.filefront.com/16949819/ASMwNoob2.rpy
You used the same strategy against me 4 times and it only worked when you axe spammed in the practice games :(...
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