View Full Version : Why are young people such ingrates?
InsaneApache
08-18-2010, 10:36
Young folks eh! Always moaning about older people. You wipe their backsides, liquidize their food, bath them and put them to bed. Perhaps read them a bedtime story.
Then they hit the teens years and start mithering about changing the world. So the worlds not good enough eh? Well it was good enough when you had your bums wiped, your mouth stuffed with food and when you snuggled down to listen to Jack and the beanstalk.
Then there's the mess they make. Ever been inside a teenagers bedroom? It looks like the Bogside after a riot.
Then there's the clothes they wear. What do they think they look like? Cool? Don't make me laugh. They look like pillocks on a pillocks day out to pillockville.
I blame the parents. :shame:
:book:
Rhyfelwyr
08-18-2010, 12:56
You wipe their backsides, liquidize their food, bath them and put them to bed.
Yeah, and they still demand a higher pension!
Wait, wrong thread...
Ageism in the BR?
:laugh4:
Vladimir
08-18-2010, 13:00
Very clever. :2thumbsup:
I'm right in the middle and love watching the show.
Louis VI the Fat
08-18-2010, 13:03
Then there's the clothes they wear. What do they think they look like? Cool? Don't make me laugh. They look like pillocks on a pillocks day out to pillockville.Why, absolutely. And before long, these youngsters put a safety pin through their nose and play bass guitar in some punk band. What must become of the world? :no:
Ah well, nothing that can't be solved with sitting down for a good talk combined with a right good caning afterwards.
gaelic cowboy
08-18-2010, 13:11
Then there's the mess they make. Ever been inside a teenagers bedroom? It looks like the Bogside after a riot.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Skullheadhq
08-18-2010, 15:57
What must become of the world?
That's what every generation since the stone age said about the younger generations, at least you're continuing the tradition.
https://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2021/eastwoodmylawn.jpg (https://img230.imageshack.us/i/eastwoodmylawn.jpg/)
InsaneApache
08-18-2010, 22:16
They'd only come back after the fogey had gone to bed and 'egg' his house.
The Victorians got it right.
Seen and not heard.
You know it makes sense.
:book:
Gregoshi
08-18-2010, 22:45
They'd only come back after the fogey had gone to bed and 'egg' his house.
You have to text it to them - its the only language they understand...if we can just figure out how to send a text message.
InsaneApache
08-19-2010, 00:36
See what we have to put up with....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSINO6MKtco
Ageism at it's worst.
Hosakawa Tito
08-19-2010, 01:06
In every old person there's this young person saying, " What the hell happened? "
Youth is wasted on the young.
HA friend of mine works as security at a supermarket. Who do they watch? The elder, they steal. Who skips lines? The elder. Who think they can still drive despite being blind? The elder. These silverheared hooligans with their senile egoism, who like to make a point out of having all the time in the world, are a plague. Some are cool of course but not nearly cold enough.
Shaka_Khan
08-19-2010, 09:48
I have to feel for the younger generation. I'd be depressed if I had to worry about being unemployed even with a diploma. We're the ones with the jobs, and there are not enough new jobs out there.
Actually, this trend on young university graduates being unable to get employed because their education status requires them to gain a large income started when I was in college. It took me a long time to be employed because of the lack of jobs. I heard that the situation is worse now.
I have to feel for the younger generation. I'd be depressed if I had to worry about being unemployed even with a diploma.
Defiance of gravity remains uplifting
rory_20_uk
08-19-2010, 10:10
What's the obsession about these bits of paper? It used to be that a degree was held by c. 10% of the population. To have one you were special. Now c. 40% is getting them. Diplomas are even more widespread, as well as can mean almost anything from a 1 day course to a 2 year programme with a tough exam and coursework (Medicine has both).
If standards had been maintained and there were 40% with a degree then we'd have businesses clamouring to employ our educated, talented graduates. Seeing as this is far from the case they've merely delayed some unemployed by a few years.
~:smoking:
Shaka_Khan
08-19-2010, 10:45
Well my parents and my grandparents were one of the few who had it. It was an automatic ticket for a good job from which my dad and my grandfather earned enough to support their entire family. Much of the younger generation won't experience that luxury even when they try hard in college like we did. And my grandfather supported (still supports my aunt and uncle) during a time when the birth rate was high.
Rory is right you get a university degree with a pack of cornflakes. My brother is a beta-tiger, he has little love for all the knowologue studies. I am way too stupid for a real study, not the same thing when you can just recite what you just read.
Shaka_Khan
08-19-2010, 12:03
In the old days, you didn't need to graduate from college to get a decent job. You got a really good job if you did graduate.
rory_20_uk
08-19-2010, 12:14
That is still the case. GO to a good university, get a good degree from a good subject and you'll get a good job. You're not competing against those from poor universities or those with poor degrees. I don't see many Oxbridge / Imperial graduates struggling to get places yet as the Milkround is still going strong.
~:smoking:
In the old days, you didn't need to graduate from college to get a decent job. You got a really good job if you did graduate.
If you have a tech or medical education you won't have to look very long unless your social knowhow really needs a knowologue, you are snatched way before graduation.
tibilicus
08-19-2010, 14:32
What's the obsession about these bits of paper? It used to be that a degree was held by c. 10% of the population. To have one you were special. Now c. 40% is getting them. Diplomas are even more widespread, as well as can mean almost anything from a 1 day course to a 2 year programme with a tough exam and coursework (Medicine has both).
If standards had been maintained and there were 40% with a degree then we'd have businesses clamouring to employ our educated, talented graduates. Seeing as this is far from the case they've merely delayed some unemployed by a few years.
~:smoking:
Only partly true. I assume students don't work for degrees and don't work to get into university like they did X number of years ago either? Sure, the "pass rate" is higher but seeming an E counts as a pass, I wouldn't worry too much.
The top universities also still ask for the same grades, mostly As. Ironically, with the current structure of the system, it's actually the top candidates who can often miss out. The straight C/D student can always find a place on a "business" course or some other vocational course whilst someone who may have hoped to achieve three As but got two As and a B could quite easily find themselves without a university place. End point being that sure, there is a clear "grade inflation", but we should also accept educational standards are improving.
8% of would-be university students will get an A* grade this year, that has addressed the grade inflation quite well. unless you feel we should go back to the day when university is for the privileged few. There are answers to the university system minus scrapping places, I'm sure an official two-tier system would be welcomed over inevitable university cuts.
What's the obsession about these bits of paper? It used to be that a degree was held by c. 10% of the population. To have one you were special. Now c. 40% is getting them. Diplomas are even more widespread, as well as can mean almost anything from a 1 day course to a 2 year programme with a tough exam and coursework (Medicine has both).
If standards had been maintained and there were 40% with a degree then we'd have businesses clamouring to employ our educated, talented graduates. Seeing as this is far from the case they've merely delayed some unemployed by a few years.
~:smoking:
Some would say that university no longer being a priviledge for the rich, but open for everybody, is progress.
Don't know about Britain, but not so long ago, it wasn't self evident for e.g. the grandson of a humble carpenter to go to University and obtain a Master degree.
Maybe the 10 % from a few decades ago weren't smarter than today's 40 %; but only wealthier. They probably generally grew up in more civilised environments because of their elite background, making them appear smarter than the present days' graduates.
The top universities also still ask for the same grades, mostly As. Ironically, with the current structure of the system, it's actually the top candidates who can often miss out. The straight C/D student can always find a place on a "business" course or some other vocational course whilst someone who may have hoped to achieve three As but got two As and a B could quite easily find themselves without a university place. End point being that sure, there is a clear "grade inflation", but we should also accept educational standards are improving.
Uh.. There's a difference between a Business course run by a Uni and a "Business Studies" course run by a tertiary institution.
To get into Business here in Aus at a good Uni requires average marks of 90% on your final school exams. So either you are mixing two concepts or everything is different in the UK.
rory_20_uk
08-19-2010, 15:34
Some would say that university no longer being a priviledge for the rich, but open for everybody, is progress.
Don't know about Britain, but not so long ago, it wasn't self evident for e.g. the grandson of a humble carpenter to go to University and obtain a Master degree.
Maybe the 10 % from a few decades ago weren't smarter than today's 40 %; but only wealthier. They probably generally grew up in more civilised environments because of their elite background, making them appear smarter than the present days' graduates.
Yet when my parents went to University from poor backgrounds they had full grant and no fees. They were from a Grammer school and a Scholarship to a Private school. Their parents were a plumber on one side and a clark on the other.
Massively increasing debt has reduced ability being the determining factor.
~:smoking:
Rhyfelwyr
08-19-2010, 16:35
All this doom and gloom about job prospects for graduates is worrying me.
I'm hoping to get a First Class degree, it's the only way to stand out from the crowd when something like 60% of graduates are getting 2:1's.
And if you get a 2:2 or worse you may as well not have went to Uni at all.
And if you get a 2:2 or worse you may as well not have went to Uni at all.
That is actually false. 2:2 can be used for a range of things, from going to a masters to going into teaching, and other things.
HoreTore
08-21-2010, 13:28
Get a teaching education.
I have yet to hear about a maths or science teacher without a job.
InsaneApache
08-21-2010, 13:54
Perhaps this is why....
http://store.aqa.org.uk/qual/gcse/qp-ms/AQA-43051-FA-W-QP-NOV09.PDF
as a pose to this...
http://www.burtongrammar.co.uk/?cat=19
Dumbing down doesn't even come close.
:book:
tibilicus
08-21-2010, 14:25
Perhaps this is why....
http://store.aqa.org.uk/qual/gcse/qp-ms/AQA-43051-FA-W-QP-NOV09.PDF
as a pose to this...
http://www.burtongrammar.co.uk/?cat=19
Dumbing down doesn't even come close.
:book:
That is a skewered example, you've picked a foundation GCSE maths paper. The foundation papers, if I remember correctly are for those students who aren't expected to achieve all that well and the maximum grade you can achieve on such a paper is a C. From my experience doing exams, foundation papers are normally offered to the bottom set students who probably wont be going any further in education and so it gives them a chance to at least get a pass grade in basic maths so they're not completely unemployable.
Saying that, many still wont get the C grade and despite the paper being extremely easy, they do counter balance it somewhat by making the % needed to obtain such a grade higher than the % needed for the same grade on the non-foundation paper.
Tellos Athenaios
08-22-2010, 16:06
Well now you know *why* Math is feared above all else: the mind-numbing exams cause brain rot. Be grateful you were not subjected to it.
Also: guess *whose* idea exactly it was to introduce it? I blame the parents. ~;)
InsaneApache
08-22-2010, 17:15
[QUOTE=Tellos Athenaios;2053200587Also: guess *whose* idea exactly it was to introduce it? I blame the parents. ~;)[/QUOTE]
Well you can blame the parents for voting for the political parties that introduced the 'new' exams to make the government look good. I'll grant you that. Also, as in footy, you can only play what's put in front of you. On this occasion it's not the childs fault. It doesn't do them any favours though.
I blame my dad. :wink:
HoreTore
08-22-2010, 19:18
I blame my dad. :wink:
Ageist!
Perhaps this is why....
http://store.aqa.org.uk/qual/gcse/qp-ms/AQA-43051-FA-W-QP-NOV09.PDF
as a pose to this...
http://www.burtongrammar.co.uk/?cat=19
Dumbing down doesn't even come close.
:book:
Wow. Big difference, watered down indeed. Considering that this (http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/hsc_exams/exam-papers-2007/pdf_doc/maths-07.pdf) was the exam I did. Seems that our education system is still pretty decent.
Tellos Athenaios
08-22-2010, 21:38
This is the one I took: http://www.havovwo.nl/vwo/vwb/bestanden/vwb1207iex.pdf
Louis VI the Fat
08-22-2010, 22:43
Perhaps this is why....
http://store.aqa.org.uk/qual/gcse/qp-ms/AQA-43051-FA-W-QP-NOV09.PDF
as a pose to this...
http://www.burtongrammar.co.uk/?cat=19
Dumbing down doesn't even come close.
:book:Oh, you confused geriatrics and your senile ways!
Education standards have increased so much that I can correct you old farts in several languages. The post above should read in proper English, 'as opposed to'.
:sweatdrop:
Kagemusha
08-23-2010, 00:20
No,no aaand no. Young people these days are not ingrates, but seniles! The amounts of information kids these days swallow, cook their brains too early and instead of growing up as productive adults. They seem more like apathetic old philophers who see life as futile attempt of a joke.
If we dont apply drastic measures, soon we have created a dragon, which will destroy the society as we know it, by turning the whole society senile from babies to walking cadavers. This simply cant be tolerated anymore.:wizard:
Young people today have been taught a sense of arrogance. They get novel devices that seemingly explain the world to them with a mouse click and the like. They earn a presdidiouship thru academics and work experiece that concrete thier opinion that the 'old timers' who came before and who had no such luxuries are 'are out of date' and 'not with the times'. The old fade in their ways to be replaced by new thinking that contredicts and disproves that of the older generation. So is the passage of time, so is as we all work in a thinking remenicent to 'The Ministry of Truth'. I am sure every generation practiced this as the old ones were replaced/died off. Forgetfulness is key, the older generations bestow upon the gifts enjoyed by the young, the young forget. They forget to provide the necessary and deserved gratefulness to the 'old farts' that came before.
This is the one I took: http://www.havovwo.nl/vwo/vwb/bestanden/vwb1207iex.pdf
Gawd how did I ever manage to get past that I am sooooo poor at math
Tellos Athenaios
08-23-2010, 06:58
Did you? I didn't think you were the type to apply for B1,2 Math; I'd have guessed you would be the one (among quite a few) forced to sit through A1 since there was no option to drop it entirely.
HoreTore
08-23-2010, 14:18
Gawd how did I ever manage to get past that I am sooooo poor at math
I blame calculators.
Those who do best at maths exams where calculators are allowed are those who rarely or never use it. Though to be honest, using a calculator is like memorizing multiplication; it just shouldn't be done. Students should learn WHY 6 times 7 is 42, they shouldn't just learn that the answer is 42 like in the old days. What's important isn't the product, it's the process used to get there.
Honestly, students should be able to hand in a paper without a single correct ANSWER and still get the highest score, as long as the PROCESS is correct. If you screw up and write the answer as 41 is quite unimportant.
Honestly, students should be able to hand in a paper without a single correct ANSWER and still get the highest score, as long as the PROCESS is correct. If you screw up and write the answer as 41 is quite unimportant.
That is how it is here, if you have all the answer wrong but did the proces right you can still walk away with a 9, goes the other way around as well, if you only got the answer you get a 2 or 3 at best (you get 1 point for free if you can spell your name correctly). Math just requires a certain degree of abstract thinking I don't posses, my brother is a real beta-tiger he can just read a formula like I can read a sentence. It can't be all bad because I made it on the highest level, but I had a rather easy exam thankfully, got an 8 making my average of a 4 a //grabs calculator yes a 6.
InsaneApache
08-23-2010, 14:46
Oh, you confused geriatrics and your senile ways!
Education standards have increased so much that I can correct you old farts in several languages. The post above should read in proper English, 'as opposed to'.
:sweatdrop:
I'm allowed a 'senior' moment from time to time. :book:
:laugh4:
HoreTore
08-23-2010, 16:18
Math just requires a certain degree of abstract thinking I don't posses
I do not believe statements like that. I don't believe that math is something only some people can do. The old saying that some are good in math while others are good at languages is wrong in the extreme; math is a language.
I am more inclined to believe that you had a poor teacher at some point, and that you have "holes in your knowledge". Understanding maths is understanding exactly what each symbol in a problem means; once you understand them all you will have no problem at all, because you will understand that there simply isn't any other way to solve the problem.
I don't see where you can do any abstract thinking at all.... If so, it must be at some level above what I've taken.
I do not believe statements like that.
Yeah but you are a math teacher, I can solve a formula, but what makes sense to you doesn't always makes sense to me. I am not a good problemsolver it takes a 'third eye'. I had less trouble with physics because I can make a mental picture of what should happen and can go from there. Everything can be mathematical, music for example. You can probably make a calculation of what should sound pleasant to the ears, but that doesn't necesarily make you a good componist, that takes a different sort of intuition.
Rhyfelwyr
08-23-2010, 18:56
Honestly, students should be able to hand in a paper without a single correct ANSWER and still get the highest score, as long as the PROCESS is correct. If you screw up and write the answer as 41 is quite unimportant.
That is already what happens. Even my teachers used to emphasise that nearly all the marks you got in each question were for clearly showing your working, they used to go crazy if you just wrote the answer without showing all the processes.
Tellos Athenaios
08-23-2010, 19:19
I blame calculators.
Those who do best at maths exams where calculators are allowed are those who rarely or never use it. Though to be honest, using a calculator is like memorizing multiplication; it just shouldn't be done. Students should learn WHY 6 times 7 is 42, they shouldn't just learn that the answer is 42 like in the old days. What's important isn't the product, it's the process used to get there.
Honestly, students should be able to hand in a paper without a single correct ANSWER and still get the highest score, as long as the PROCESS is correct. If you screw up and write the answer as 41 is quite unimportant.
Which is a nice answer in theory but it fails in practice. The student who can write a program to integrate an arbitrary function in 10 minutes & debug it and thereby have his calculator solve a single question (a) probably does not really need the calculator anyway, (b) just wasted 5 minutes of his time when a hand crafted answer takes more like 5.
a completely inoffensive name
08-24-2010, 00:15
HoreTore is a math teacher?
InsaneApache
08-24-2010, 00:50
HoreTore is a math teacher?
Apparently.
The constipated mathematician who worked it out with a pencil and paper.
Allegedly.
Even my teachers used to emphasise that nearly all the marks you got in each question were for clearly showing your working, they used to go crazy if you just wrote the answer without showing all the processes.
I used to get in trouble for it, as I could work it out in my head far faster than I could writing it down. What is the point of trying to figure out how to write the working out when you already worked out the answer?
a completely inoffensive name
08-24-2010, 02:11
I used to get in trouble for it, as I could work it out in my head far faster than I could writing it down. What is the point of trying to figure out how to write the working out when you already worked out the answer?
It's just a precaution for combating cheating. If you did it in your head and can write the answer down extremely fast, you have time to write the process down as well. If you have to think for a quite a while on how you did it in your head, then you might not understand the process which means you don't deserve full credit anyway.
HoreTore
08-24-2010, 09:23
Which is a nice answer in theory but it fails in practice. The student who can write a program to integrate an arbitrary function in 10 minutes & debug it and thereby have his calculator solve a single question (a) probably does not really need the calculator anyway, (b) just wasted 5 minutes of his time when a hand crafted answer takes more like 5.
Golden answer bolded.
But why doesn't he need a calculator? Because he's so supersmart? Or because he has become so supersmart by not using a calculator in the beginning?
And Frags, I still don't buy your "I don't understand it"-excuse, I still believe that if you don't understand it, it is because you haven't had someone teach it to your properly.
I used to get in trouble for it, as I could work it out in my head far faster than I could writing it down. What is the point of trying to figure out how to write the working out when you already worked out the answer?
Because having the right answer means absolutely zero. Whyat your teacher is trying/tried to teach you was the process needed to find the answer, not the answer itself. And yes, it's actually perfectly possible to get the right answer without knowing the right process, I remember knowing the answer to fraction problems before I knew the correct process.
The problem with that is that you can figure out the answer to low-level problems, like "what's one half plus one half?", but once things get much more complicated you need the process to find the answer. And the reason you start with easy problems is so that you can focus on learning that process, and learn it well.
Honestly, students should be able to hand in a paper without a single correct ANSWER and still get the highest score, as long as the PROCESS is correct. If you screw up and write the answer as 41 is quite unimportant.
That's :daisy:
Incorrect is incorrect, period. Is this how kids get their marks nowadays? Bah. Yes, you need to know and understand the process, but getting the correct answer is also very important. Understanding the process and not getting the correct answer is laziness, lack of concentration, not willing to complete the exercise etc. I'd say that if a student shows he knows and understands the process but doesn't get the right answer, he should fail his exam because of his bad attitude and lack of effort.
And Frags, I still don't buy your "I don't understand it"-excuse, I still believe that if you don't understand it, it is because you haven't had someone teach it to your properly.
Disagree. Some people simply don't understand. With your attitude, all responsibility is put by the teacher. Child fails exam -> teachers' fault; he should have explained better. Nonsense. Sometimes the child didn't study enough and sometimes, the child simply doesn't have the brains to understand (or, to put it more polite, "he has other talents").
HoreTore
08-24-2010, 09:48
That's :daisy:
Incorrect is incorrect, period. Is this how kids get their marks nowadays? Bah. Yes, you need to know and understand the process, but getting the correct answer is also very important. Understanding the process and not getting the correct answer is laziness, lack of concentration, not willing to complete the exercise etc. I'd say that if a student shows he knows and understands the process but doesn't get the right answer, he should fail his exam because of his bad attitude and lack of effort.
Nonsense. The correct answer to 6 times 7 isn't 42.
The correct answer is the process needed to solve it. So, whether you answer 41, 42 or 43 is irrelevant, because none of those numbers is what the question asked for.
Disagree. Some people simply don't understand. With your attitude, all responsibility is put by the teacher. Child fails exam -> teachers' fault; he should have explained better. Nonsense. Sometimes the child didn't study enough and sometimes, the child simply doesn't have the brains to understand (or, to put it more polite, "he has other talents").
Disagree. I put all the blame on the teacher. But hey, the teacher isn't perfect, in a class of 20 people of course you won't be able to teach things in the perfect way for everyone.
The child doesn't study enough? What nonsense is that? If a child doesn't study enough, it is because he isn't motivated enough. And how does one get the motivation to study? By mastering the subject, and to do that you need to have someone teach it to you in a way that you understand.
Too much repetition(or in your words, "study") is one of the top math killers. If you get 20 mensa-members in a room, I can garantuee you that a significant portion lost their interest in math quite early due to too much repetition.
Everyone has the ability to understand language. We are all able to speak at least one language, most of us two. Math is a language. Of course everyone can learn it, just like they are able to talk.
And Frags, I still don't buy your "I don't understand it"-excuse, I still believe that if you don't understand it, it is because you haven't had someone teach it to your properly.
Don't you have any weaker students in your class? How would you explain that?
HoreTore
08-24-2010, 09:59
Don't you have any weaker students in your class? How would you explain that?
I have seen kids become bullies because they have no challenges at school.
I have seen kids who thought they understood nothing suddenly get everything because someone explained it in a different way.
I have seen kids who are unable to grasp one level of maths because they didn't learn the level below properly.
I have talked to a man with an IQ of 135 who was dismissed as a troublemaker and a failure as a child.
But I haven't seen these retard kids everyone keeps talking about.
Nonsense. The correct answer to 6 times 7 isn't 42.
The correct answer is the process needed to solve it. So, whether you answer 41, 42 or 43 is irrelevant, because none of those numbers is what the question asked for.
Disagree. I put all the blame on the teacher. But hey, the teacher isn't perfect, in a class of 20 people of course you won't be able to teach things in the perfect way for everyone.
The child doesn't study enough? What nonsense is that? If a child doesn't study enough, it is because he isn't motivated enough. And how does one get the motivation to study? By mastering the subject, and to do that you need to have someone teach it to you in a way that you understand.
Too much repetition(or in your words, "study") is one of the top math killers. If you get 20 mensa-members in a room, I can garantuee you that a significant portion lost their interest in math quite early due to too much repetition.
Everyone has the ability to understand language. We are all able to speak at least one language, most of us two. Math is a language. Of course everyone can learn it, just like they are able to talk.
So, you'd give 10/10 if the student would answer 6 x 7 = 7+7+7+7+7+7 = 40 ? How will that motivate a student to be less lazy when solving questions?
I'd give 5/10 and a note that the attitude needs to change drastically or next time it'll be 0/10.
Most of the classes don't consist of 20 potential mensa members. Get out of your ivory tower already. There are people who do not have the skill. Just like there are people who don't master their native tongue.
And then you have laziness and lack of effort. Best example is the Dutch "dt" rule. It's as simple as it comes, yet many people make mistakes. This has only one explanation: laziness. Now, if you'll go "oh, but you understand the rule and the thought process, so I'll give you 10/10 for the test in which you butchered the Dutch language", then the teacher is indeed to blame for the fact that over 15 years, that same student will still make those same mistakes again and again. The teacher who gives a zero and a punishment of say "write me a 10 pages long essay on laziness; for each "dt" mistake in it, you'll write me an additional 10 pages", will have better results.
I have seen kids become bullies because they have no challenges at school.
I have seen kids who thought they understood nothing suddenly get everything because someone explained it in a different way.
I have seen kids who are unable to grasp one level of maths because they didn't learn the level below properly.
I have talked to a man with an IQ of 135 who was dismissed as a troublemaker and a failure as a child.
But I haven't seen these retard kids everyone keeps talking about.
You are the professional of course, in IQ-range is a bit like this here, very +/- mind you
up to 90 = Mavo (now vmbo, needed for midrange and mobbing the floors of rocket facilities)
100 to 115 = Havo (needed for 'Hogeschool' don't know the english translation, it's one step below university but only in theory, more schoollike)
115+ =VWO/Gymnasium (needed for university)
Can't tell me that you can teach a kid with an IQ of 80 the intuition required to solve the problems of the kids in the 110+ range, neither can I believe that they can read the same things and actually understand it, it also takes fantasy. Some are smarter than others.
Rhyfelwyr
08-24-2010, 10:33
Yeah HoreTore I know you like equality and all but don't try to write your social views into the natural world (ie our physical/mental capabilities).
Sadly, some people are just not as smart as others, and never will be. You can try different approaches to help them out but they'll never have the same intelligence as others.
Tellos Athenaios
08-24-2010, 10:36
I don't know where you got that IQ -> school mapping from... If you talk cito scores that still doesn't mean anything, really. (Plenty of 5:40's go on to drop to VMBO, which is more like 5:10.)
Hore Tore has a point in so far that within the same general “level” of education anyone capable of subject X is also capable of learning subject Y, no matter the X and Y (because the actual objective difficulty of the problems* are roughly the same). However, this is assuming there are no (or almost none) bounds on time and effort that person and teachers will be able to put in; and we all know that is not the realistic scenario. So while you Fragony are probably capable of understanding Euclidean geometry it would take you much more effort than a person who understands the diagrams intuitively without much need for explanation. Similarly the person who views Math problems like little more than a join-the-dots type of exercise might need more time and effort to become competent in French.
By which I mean how close a problem is to what you have previously learned to solve. Fundamentally, a fifth year English course should be about as difficult as a first year one because in the fifth year course you will have the knowledge and competence gained from the previous four years.
I don't know where you got that IQ -> school mapping from... If you talk cito scores that still doesn't mean anything, really. (Plenty of 5:40's go on to drop to VMBO, which is more like 5:10.)
Just repeating what I was told, the holes are there because IQ is mostly mathematical, so someone who is poor at math can still be good at other subjects. Dunno where the person who told me got it from but it feels about right.
while you Fragony are probably capable of understanding Euclidean geometry
For the love of god what the hell is that??
InsaneApache
08-24-2010, 10:46
Nonsense. The correct answer to 6 times 7 isn't 42.
The correct answer is the process needed to solve it. So, whether you answer 41, 42 or 43 is irrelevant, because none of those numbers is what the question asked for.
That's all well and good when you're at school but try telling that to the taxman. Andres is correct that just showing that the workings are right doesn't quite cut the mustard.
Let's just say you work in the accounts department of your employer. Simply stating that the process is correct but that the outcome is irrelevant will get you the sack faster than you can say quadratic equation.
Bloody kids. :whip:
Work isn't school gramps :smart:
Work isn't school gramps :smart:
Indeed. So you better be well prepared and able to do things correct, than to learn the hard way by getting the sack for silly mistakes.
Indeed. So you better be well prepared and able to do things correct, than to learn the hard way by getting the sack for silly mistakes.
What fun is that lawboy
HoreTore
08-24-2010, 13:42
Yeah HoreTore I know you like equality and all but don't try to write your social views into the natural world (ie our physical/mental capabilities).
Sadly, some people are just not as smart as others, and never will be. You can try different approaches to help them out but they'll never have the same intelligence as others.
....And you are actually capable of seperating the "stupid bully" from "the incredibly smart bully who is a bully because he has no challenges in school"?
I call BS.
....And you are actually capable of seperating the "stupid bully" from "the incredibly smart bully who is a bully because he has no challenges in school"?
That's not what he said :inquisitive:
Clearly, your reading comprehension teacher schould have given you more punishments ~;p
Well to be fair to HoreTore, Norway has one of the highest average IQs of any nation. People are different and yes their aptitudes will lie in different areas. But, often the "dumb" kids are the lazy ones who are actually quite smart but don't put the effort in, or they have been pigeon-holed into thinking they are dumb because at a young age they didn't respond to certain teaching styles.
For example, when I lived in the UK I went to an epic school and by the age of ten was learning Latin, French, Advanced Maths, Chemistry, etc. Then my family moved out here to Sydney and I started going to a public school, the teacher was hopeless, the topics were ones I'd covered several years ago in the UK. So I just cruised on by, and when it came to the parent-teacher interview the teacher said I was an average student. Lol. I have an IQ of ~138. Hardly average, infact 40+ points higher than the average Aussie. So, I was considered average because the teaching style didn't suit my learning style and I wasn't challenged. I moved to a better school a year later and that solved everything, well almost everything. I didn't really have to work at all at school until about 4 years later in year 9-10, as I'd already covered everything up until then in the UK. So, yeh, my school life was pretty breezy. The only subject I ever struggled with was English, I used to hate it with a passion, but then in year 8 and later year 12 I received teachers who I connected with and it unlocked my ability and interest in the subject. And now I have had a short story published with a literature magazine, etc. You ask my year 5-7 teachers if I had the ability to be creative and write well they'd have said no. Even my parents were taken aback that suddenly I improved dramatically. So I'd have to say there is a lot to a students results and their interest in the subject, the ability of the teachers and the style of learning that they respond to.
HoreTore
08-24-2010, 14:34
That's not what he said :inquisitive:
Clearly, your reading comprehension teacher schould have given you more punishments ~;p
It's far from a coincidence that I didn't take Norwegian or English.... :clown:
People are different and yes their aptitudes will lie in different areas. But, often the "dumb" kids are the lazy ones who are actually quite smart but don't put the effort in, or they have been pigeon-holed into thinking they are dumb because at a young age they didn't respond to certain teaching styles.
This story:
For example, when I lived in the UK I went to an epic school and by the age of ten was learning Latin, French, Advanced Maths, Chemistry, etc. Then my family moved out here to Sydney and I started going to a public school, the teacher was hopeless, the topics were ones I'd covered several years ago in the UK. So I just cruised on by, and when it came to the parent-teacher interview the teacher said I was an average student. Lol. I have an IQ of ~138. Hardly average, infact 40+ points higher than the average Aussie. So, I was considered average because the teaching style didn't suit my learning style and I wasn't challenged. I moved to a better school a year later and that solved everything, well almost everything. I didn't really have to work at all at school until about 4 years later in year 9-10, as I'd already covered everything up until then in the UK. So, yeh, my school life was pretty breezy. The only subject I ever struggled with was English, I used to hate it with a passion, but then in year 8 and later year 12 I received teachers who I connected with and it unlocked my ability and interest in the subject. And now I have had a short story published with a literature magazine, etc. You ask my year 5-7 teachers if I had the ability to be creative and write well they'd have said no. Even my parents were taken aback that suddenly I improved dramatically. So I'd have to say there is a lot to a students results and their interest in the subject, the ability of the teachers and the style of learning that they respond to.
Pretty much proves my point, doesn't it?
Just like this:
Let's just say you work in the accounts department of your employer. Simply stating that the process is correct but that the outcome is irrelevant will get you the sack faster than you can say quadratic equation.
proves my point ~;)
I won't deny that approach A will work with students A, B, but not with C and that trying approach B might get good results with student C. But I strongly disagree with your statement about the process being more important than getting to the actual answer. What good is understanding the process if you don't manage to get the correct answer?
Math is not a language. I can making some silly grammar mistakings and still be understood. 6x7=7+7+7+7+7+7=38 is simply wrong and shows I don't know how to count.
Rhyfelwyr
08-24-2010, 16:53
....And you are actually capable of seperating the "stupid bully" from "the incredibly smart bully who is a bully because he has no challenges in school"?
I call BS.
Um I never said give up on them. I'm just saying that whatever approach you take there always will be some that really just are the "stupid bully" that's going to struggle whatever way you teach him.
What good is understanding the process if you don't manage to get the correct answer?
Because if you only get the answer right and don't mention how you got there you don't get any points, you fail your exams, and will never get the job in the first place :yes:
Because having the right answer means absolutely zero. Whyat your teacher is trying/tried to teach you was the process needed to find the answer, not the answer itself. And yes, it's actually perfectly possible to get the right answer without knowing the right process, I remember knowing the answer to fraction problems before I knew the correct process.
The problem with that is that you can figure out the answer to low-level problems, like "what's one half plus one half?", but once things get much more complicated you need the process to find the answer. And the reason you start with easy problems is so that you can focus on learning that process, and learn it well.
But it was even with some of the more complicated stuff I could do it, pretty much right up to GCSE standard (as far as I went) and some of the basic mechanics such as the SUVAT equations.
End of the day, answer is what matters. If you pay the correct taxes to the government, you are fine, if you pay the incorrect amount, you could possibly be charged for tax fraud. Also, the whole "working it out but got it wrong" doesn't make sense, because if you did the working out correctly, you would have also got the correct answer.
HoreTore
08-24-2010, 18:30
Um I never said give up on them. I'm just saying that whatever approach you take there always will be some that really just are the "stupid bully" that's going to struggle whatever way you teach him.
That's something you won't find out until you've tried every possible way, and by then he has graduated 10 years ago.
Also, the whole "working it out but got it wrong" doesn't make sense, because if you did the working out correctly, you would have also got the correct answer.
Yeah, I have no idea why all of you focused so intensively on that irrelevant part of my post. It was hyperbole, how is it possible to not get that?
Teh Point(tm) was to emphasize what is seen as important, and that what most people think is important is merely the product. Nobody is going to have every answer wrong if they've used the correct process - but just as I hit the wrong button on the keyboard from time to time, it is possible to write the wrong number by accident. And that is quite irrelevant.
Rhyfelwyr
08-24-2010, 22:27
That's something you won't find out until you've tried every possible way, and by then he has graduated 10 years ago.
I still think this is wishful thinking. Some kids are quite plainly stupid and you can tell fairly quickly.
Furunculus
08-24-2010, 23:02
Some would say that university no longer being a priviledge for the rich, but open for everybody, is progress.
Don't know about Britain, but not so long ago, it wasn't self evident for e.g. the grandson of a humble carpenter to go to University and obtain a Master degree.
Maybe the 10 % from a few decades ago weren't smarter than today's 40 %; but only wealthier. They probably generally grew up in more civilised environments because of their elite background, making them appear smarter than the present days' graduates.
i don't know, my dad was the son of a liverpool dock worker who spent most of his days waist deep in freezing cold oily water, 365 days of the year, and yet he managed to get a degree and a masters and he is closing on 65 now.
a completely inoffensive name
08-25-2010, 02:05
I always figured half the credit should be based on the process and half the credit should be based on the answer. No process shown means you fail, incorrect answer means you fail. Understanding what you are doing and implementing it correctly to achieve the right answer are both important.
Tellos Athenaios
08-25-2010, 03:18
If you look at some of the exams posted you see that they contain marks next to questions. Typically this provides a clue as to how many points of process you need to observe. EDIT: And most of the real point-scoring questions are not about “compute the value of the integral of this function with respect to x over [a,b]”, instead they are the “the value of the integral of this function with respect to x over [a,b] is 1; show that it is so”.
edyzmedieval
08-26-2010, 03:01
I don't know about the young people you met, but many people that I have met (teenagers) are incredibly ignorant and dumb.
I always figured half the credit should be based on the process and half the credit should be based on the answer. No process shown means you fail, incorrect answer means you fail. Understanding what you are doing and implementing it correctly to achieve the right answer are both important.
I think it's fine as it is. The proces is more important you aren't at work yet, a tiny mistake is easily made, the best accountants make them. An accountant won't get fired over one mistake but for consistantly screwing up, so it's unfair to make it 50/50 for a student.
HoreTore
08-26-2010, 11:29
I don't know about the young people you met, but many people that I have met (teenagers) are incredibly ignorant and dumb.
Yes, that is why the standard of education is higher for every new generation...
Let's face it kids today learn a hundred more things than they did in the 50's.
a completely inoffensive name
08-26-2010, 22:55
Yes, that is why the standard of education is higher for every new generation...
Let's facebook it kids today learn a hundred more things than they did in the 50's.
Unless you live in Texas that is.
LittleGrizzly
08-30-2010, 05:49
I always remember me and a really bright girl got marked down in our in non calculator maths SATS (about 14-15 yr olds I think) we were told to estimate some long sum with a few decimal places (I think it was to the nearest thousand or such) but I decided this was far too easy and so gave the correct answer (I imagine thats why she did it) we were probably looking for more of a challenge...
My group of friends was probably one of the brighter groups in school (not immediatedly evident we weren't the bookworms or such) but out of the lot of us only one achieved good GCSE grades (mostly A's and B's) the one who even said himself that he thought some of us were more intelligent than him and he's the only one who went on to university. Outside of my group of friends i remember incidents where some not considered bright would do really well, and the class would be amazed at this, not realising this person was actually intelligent and this is what they could achieve with a little effort.
So in conclusion I agree with HoreTore a lot of those just scrap heaped in school could be very intelligent people, just for whatever reason school conditions, parents, peer pressure and personality can obscure this.
rory_20_uk
08-31-2010, 09:42
No system is going to be perfect, but streaming children will ensure (as far as possible) that the brightest get stretched and the dimmest get supported. This will also ensure that the brightest won't get bored and spent more time disrupting the class, and the dimmest won't get lost and also disrupt the class.
If the system allows different sets for different subjects all the better.
~:smoking:
Depends on the teacher as well. I had one really bad teacher who kept wanting to move me down into a lower stream, and ended up having to fight to keep my place against them. The really redicilous thing was, the next year when I had a new teacher, I instantly got moved up a stream and he was going "Why was he even in this one? He was miles ahead for this class".
rory_20_uk
08-31-2010, 14:09
Of course - I'm not trying to say that streaming children is a panacea that fixes all wrongs. In any system, a good teacher will get better results than a bad teacher.
We had a teacher in Chemistry at our school. Of course we weren't aware until someone called up the board for a retake in the subject. After saying the subject and the school the person correctly guessed the teacher - "oh we get several every year from him". I personally had the same fight with maths. The teacher was excellent at maths - if you loved the subject and were in the top set of further maths great, else he was incapable of teaching to anyone else.
~:smoking:
What is this streaming? Can you do subjects on different levels seperatily? Here it's all or nothing, you are either smart enough for all subjects or you are not, and then you drop a level altogether. You can move back up if you have at least a 7 for everyting.
rory_20_uk
08-31-2010, 15:38
Where I went to school it was by subject a lot of the time.
IMO that is a much better system as often people are good at some and not at others. Of course some are good at all, but it helped reduce the stigma of being in the lower set in one subject as you could still be in the top in another (me in e.g. French and Chemistry).
It takes a bit of organisation at the start of the year, but its not rocket science.
~:smoking:
How is it determined who can move trough to university? If you have a 4 for a subject but an 8 for another you are fine as long as you are overall in the plus but you need that minimum amount of points to get the right papers. UK system sounds more flexible but also a bit unwieldy.
rory_20_uk
08-31-2010, 16:16
Nothing to do with getting to Uni. You get taught in classes, and everyone sits A levels to determine who gets into university. That is a whole new can of worms though...
~:smoking:
Back to the OT...
The world is going to hell in a handbasket,and that's just fine for the elderly. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100831/od_nm/us_elderly_news)
Older people like reading negative news stories about their younger counterparts because it boosts their own self-esteem, according to a new study.
German researchers said older people tend to be portrayed negatively in society. Although they are often described as wise, they are also be shown as being slow and forgetful.
"Living in a youth centered culture, they may appreciate a boost in self-esteem. That's why they prefer the negative stories about younger people, who are seen as having a higher status in our society," said Dr. Silvia Knobloch-Westerwick, of Ohio State University.
...
The researchers found that older people were more likely to choose to read negative articles about those younger than themselves. They also tended to show less interest in articles about older people, whether negative or positive.
But younger people preferred to read positive articles about other young people.
According to Knobloch-Westerwick, older people's preference for negative news about their younger counterparts can be explained by their place in society.
"Everybody likes a self-esteem boost. For young people though, it's almost automatic. Youth is considered important in society," she said.
:laugh4:
Strike For The South
09-01-2010, 21:02
I take solace in the fact knowing I could beat everyone in this thread up
InsaneApache
09-01-2010, 23:49
Except me. I'm too far away.
Of course - I'm not trying to say that streaming children is a panacea that fixes all wrongs. In any system, a good teacher will get better results than a bad teacher.
We had a teacher in Chemistry at our school. Of course we weren't aware until someone called up the board for a retake in the subject. After saying the subject and the school the person correctly guessed the teacher - "oh we get several every year from him". I personally had the same fight with maths. The teacher was excellent at maths - if you loved the subject and were in the top set of further maths great, else he was incapable of teaching to anyone else.
~:smoking:
Haha, my mind is brought instantly to one of my favourite people. Probably too smart to be a teacher. He thinks so far and above everybody else that he simply cannot teach them adequately. It is interesting, certainly, and it has made him one of the most hated teachers at my high school.
As for the rest, I must say that I believe that the method is the most important. Right answers are important too, dont get me wrong, but it is important to show how you got the result. Like it is nice to know that the romans built the pantheon, but it would be much more fulfilling to know how they did it (for me at least....maybe that makes me kinda nerdy...).
Anywho, it is interesting for me to note the sheer disparity in learning aptitude when it comes to varied subjects. For me, I have a very easy time in history. Math is easy for me as well, but it is not something I have a good memory for. The sciences are also a strong point when I pay attention, but if the focus is lost, all is lost. English is a good subject to me. Reading and interpreting is a strong point, but for some reason, I cannot write an essay to save my soul. My only horrid point is in learning Japanese. I dont know I would do in a language more closely resembling my native tongue, but japanese has no common points....at all. I struggle for a B. For that matter, I have tested myself....if I do the bare minimum, I get a b as well. I do hope college holds more of a challenge for me. I can get away with complete and utter laziness and I am not entirely convinced that it is fair. And not sure why either. If I were less lazy, I would easily be at the top of my class, and I would have done better than 34 on the ACT (out of 36, if you dont know. Funny thing to note: I got a seven out of twelve on the writing portion, which, thank god, is not included in the composite score). But as it stands, I am a very lazy person, and am currently idling at second in my class with a good chance of acceptance to pretty much anywhere I where I want to go for college. : /
As I have said, I am not entirely sure that this is fair. I know many people who work much harder than I with less results. I am filled with a certain....shame. And I know I should work harder, I would just rather focus on enjoying my social life, which is going remarkably well.
Forgive my rambling. I will go now.
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