Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of Papy

[Furunculus]

Pensioner René Galinier has become the face of a fierce debate in France over their Roma community and the limits of liberté, égalité and fraternité:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/7969401/Grandfather-at-the-centre-of-Roma-debate-dividing-France.html


Nissan-lez-Ensérunes, where four generations of the Galinier family currently live, provides a vivid snapshot of why it has become such a charged issue in France. Not far from Montpellier, it is a picture-postcard image of southern French living, with elegant stone houses set among narrow winding streets filled with flowers.

Mr Galinier has lived in the village for over 70 years, raising his two children, working for the local council, then retiring to spend time with his wife and grandchildren and tend his garden. Swings stand in front of his wooden-shuttered bungalow, and a small table and chairs is set under the tree in the front garden by a pile of neatly chopped logs.

But his idyllic-looking home was not immune from the petty crime problems also affecting the rest of France. Mr Galinier had been targeted by criminals twice before; in 2002, when thieves attempted to break in, and in February this year when his goldfish were stolen from the pond.

Among villagers, the finger of blame for local petty crime often points - rightly or wrongly - to a patch of wasteland several miles outside the village, where a group of Roma have recently made camp next to a motorway. The families and their gaggles of wild-haired children live in ramshackle caravans among piles of rubbish, discarded furniture and old car tyres.

On the afternoon of August 5, two girls in their early twenties broke into Mr Galinier's home. The unarmed pair, who speak no French and have not given police their names, were both shot at from just a few metres' distance. One was hit on the groin, the other in the chest. Both are now in hospital awaiting identification and questioning - although one of the girls is thought to be already known to the police.

Mr Galinier's story, with its strong echoes of the British case of Norfolk farmer Tony Martin, has resonated throughout the village and beyond.

A support committee has been set up to fight for his cause, and signs have been spray-painted on the road to Nissan proclaiming "We're right behind you, René". A petition in the town hall, supermarket and local shops has over 8,000 signatures, with 10,000 from as far afield as the USA joining the campaign on Facebook and internet forums.

Picking her way among broken bottles, discarded sofas and heaps of rubbish, Mikaela Josephine, 19, is only interested in avoiding being sent back to Romania. "It's wrong, what Mr Sarkozy is doing," the mother-of-two said. "But I don't want to go back there. It is more racist than France."

And you wonder why France is drifting in the same direction? :idea2:

[Furunculus]

I still come up against resistance to the common-sense concept that peoples are the product of their shared social and cultural history, and that a people who are subject to an influx of 'others' whose culture is very different are likely to view this as an invasion, especially if those 'others' are perceived to impact of the daily conduct of local life, and doubly so when those locals feel powerless to do anything about it.

The default response I come up against from people who refuse to accept this blindingly obvious logic is to wave away the problem by branding the local population as a bunch of worthless bigots, who could do with a little education in open-minded toleration and appreciation of other ways of life.

My response is that the states first duty is the welfare and well-being of its people, and to understand that people particularly from rural areas quite often live there because they appreciate the integration and cohesion of the local community, so leave them be. This is not to say that urban types won't thrive in mutli-cultural metropolis's, or that they are wrong to do so, horses for courses, merely that foreign 'invasions' particularly of those who lifestyle jars with that integrated and cohesive community spirit are deeply divisive and antagonistic to the welfare and well-being of the local people.

Why is my response to actively assist in the non-interference in other peoples lives, whereas others take a legalistic view that any deviation from the principles deemed acceptable by urbanites is automatically branded bigotry and sufficient justification for intrusive social engineering?

I personally have every sympathy with that french village, and am more than happy to see sarkozy working to increase the well-being of the people for whom he is responsible, regardless of whether it is for shallow politic reasons.

[Meneldil]

This whole fuss is kind of silly actually.

Roma are *paid* (300€) to return to their country. The EU laws state that Roma can stay 3 monthes in a EU country before said country can kick them out. That's what Sarkozy is doing, and if polls are a correct indication (which they aren't), then most French people agree with him.

In Montpellier, there are around 30 Romas hanging in the most populated areas. The adults ask for money, play music or wash cars, while the kids are pickpockets and prostitutes. They get state funding as an additional source of income. Even though they're not entitled to get it after three monthes. Most of the money they make is given to the local mafia leader, who keeps a share and sends the rest back to Romania.
The last time the cops tried to make them move their camps, they found out most of the kids have scabbies.

I don't know what the solution is, but I don't want my taxes to be given to thieves and burglars.

Edit: As for the old man, I've followed the affair closely since I work at the local newspaper. Even though I think I would have acted the same way, he broke the law and thus deserves to face a trial. It's quite likely he wouldn't have received a harsh sentence, if it weren't for some of his declarations (such as "I've become racist, I hate this dirty race"). Having said that to the cops, it's likely the judge won't be as lenient with him.

As a whole, I think the situation in France is becoming direr and direr everyday. I suspect the far right will beat the left at the next presidential elections. I also fear another spark of this kind (old people molested/young girl raped by arabs/romas/gypsies) will turn people violent. The situation is really tense in southern France. Left or right, handworker or journalist, I can't recall of anyone who doesn't think immigration is destroying this region.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I would kick them out, the state should respect the rights and liberties of its citizens but not foreigners that have no place being there.

Immigration should only be allowed as long as it is beneficial to the native population. These Roma clearly do not contribute anything the the country.

And I don't see this as bigotry, just common sense. When the Roma learn that living in caravans through crime and begging isn't a very sensible thing to do in the 21st century, they should be allowed to immigrate just as anyone else. Race is nothing to do with it, I don't expect to be able to go and live by a rubbish dump in Germany and exist by mugging the local population. :shrug:

[Fragony]

Italy is going to do the same, thankfully begging is illegal here and the children are forced to go to school so they hardly settle here, only some street musicians, rather good ones. But they are a serious problem in the south, yeah send them packing, and if that's racist so what really

[Furunculus]

The thing that really irritates me is that i don't even give a damn about immigration as an issue, but i'm forced to waste my time advocating against uncontrolled immigration because governments have forgotten that their first, foremost, and absolute duty is to the welfare and well-being of their OWN people.

The result of this utter dereliction of duty is that I see the harmony and cohesion of society in Britain wrecked to the detriment of public concentration on issues that matter far more.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I would kick them out, the state should respect the rights and liberties of its citizens but not foreigners that have no place being there.

Immigration should only be allowed as long as it is beneficial to the native population. These Roma clearly do not contribute anything the the country.

And I don't see this as bigotry, just common sense. When the Roma learn that living in caravans through crime and begging isn't a very sensible thing to do in the 21st century, they should be allowed to immigrate just as anyone else. Race is nothing to do with it, I don't expect to be able to go and live by a rubbish dump in Germany and exist by mugging the local population. :shrug:

I live with a settled Roman, she's very nice.

Nonetowits.

Now, these people are EU citizens, if France didn't want them in their country they shouldn't have pushed so hard for those people to be included in the EU. So, under EU law, they cannot be evicted. Having a special EU law about certain EU citizens is clearly racist.

Having said that, the Roma cannot be allowed to just occupy waste land and foul it.

So I think there is a problem, and it is France's problem.

[naut]

Now, these people are EU citizens, if France didn't want them in their country they shouldn't have pushed so hard for those people to be included in the EU. So, under EU law, they cannot be evicted. Having a special EU law about certain EU citizens is clearly racist.
Actually. In France any foreign national, EU or otherwise, must have a work visa to stay longer than 3 months. So they aren't doing anything they are not allowed to do.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Edit: As for the old man, I've followed the affair closely since I work at the local newspaper. Even though I think I would have acted the same way, he broke the law and thus deserves to face a trial. It's quite likely he wouldn't have received a harsh sentence, if it weren't for some of his declarations (such as "I've become racist, I hate this dirty race"). Having said that to the cops, it's likely the judge won't be as lenient with him.

It's illegal to defend yourself by shooting criminals who break into your home?

At least the uncontrolled immigration into the US is just people who want to work.

CR

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Actually. In France any foreign national, EU or otherwise, must have a work visa to stay longer than 3 months. So they aren't doing anything they are not allowed to do.

So France does not conform to EU directives about free movement of EU citizens the way Britain does?

Once again, stop the EU, we want to get off.

[Beskar]

I remember when Gypsies settled on the sports field near our University campus and ruined all the pitches.

Should we protect these minority cultures or get rid of them? I think we should get rid of them, unless they can be bothered to do it legally and rent out a field or whatever.

[Strike For The South]

Just making it eaiser for the muslims.

[Furunculus]

I remember when Gypsies settled on the sports field near our University campus and ruined all the pitches.

Should we protect these minority cultures or get rid of them? I think we should get rid of them, unless they can be bothered to do it legally and rent out a field or whatever.

ah, is that the siren call for yet more social engineering; "just one more push herr general and victory will be ours............"

oops, did i just godwin? :p

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I remember when Gypsies settled on the sports field near our University campus and ruined all the pitches.

Should we protect these minority cultures or get rid of them? I think we should get rid of them, unless they can be bothered to do it legally and rent out a field or whatever.

Cultural Genocide as a matter of course is not acceptable, but nor is positive discrimination.

Fly tipping was still a criminal offence last I checked, especially in those quantities.

[Tellos Athenaios]

So France does not conform to EU directives about free movement of EU citizens the way Britain does?

Once again, stop the EU, we want to get off.

When Romania and other countries joined some “temporary” restrictions on the EU directive with respect to this kind of migration were put into place as part of the package and anyway the directive contains a provision which applies for the first 5 years and basically says “except if you're a bum”. So no you can't decide that what you really want is a part of the French paradise, buy yourself a Loire cottage and live off French welfare state for the remainder of your life. ~;)

[Beskar]

ah, is that the siren call for yet more social engineering; "just one more push herr general and victory will be ours............"

oops, did i just godwin? :p


Cultural Genocide as a matter of course is not acceptable, but nor is positive discrimination.

Fly tipping was still a criminal offence last I checked, especially in those quantities.

Interesting replies. So deporting is people is ok, but not asking them to simply rent-out fields opposed to tresspassing?

[Fragony]

They don't want to

[Andres]

Meh.

These clowns were in the news in Belgium lately. They occupied the land of a farmer, without asking the owner if it's ok, let alone paying him something for his trouble. When they were chased away, they whined about Belgium not showing enough hospitality.

Whoever goes and sits on a land that isn't his own, without the consent of the onwer, shouldn't be surprised he must leave. Idiots. Was it that difficult to ask the farmer and the local authorities under which conditions it would be ok to use that piece of land and, in case of a "njet" to go look for another piece of land?

On what basis did they think they had the right to just put their caravans where they please without having to ask? And then they wonder why some people dislike them? Would they like me after I break into their caravan, take a shower, have dinner and then leave without even cleaning the mess I made, let alone paying rent?

[Meneldil]

So France does not conform to EU directives about free movement of EU citizens the way Britain does?

Once again, stop the EU, we want to get off.

Actually, this kind of restriction towards Romas immigrants is not specific to France. All EU countries can kick Roma who can't justify their stay after three monthes.


It's illegal to defend yourself by shooting criminals who break into your home?

At least the uncontrolled immigration into the US is just people who want to work.

CR
He wasn't defending himself: he shot the first girl in the back and the other one while she was running away. In France, the notion of "legitimate defense" actually means that you have to be defending someone, and not something. The retaliation also has to be proportionate. Which means you can't shot someone in the face because he insulted you.
Short story, long story, he broke the law. He could have expected some understanding from the court if he acted out of fear, but he didn't. In all likelyness, he got tired of being robbed in his own house, and got even more pissed off when he saw the intruders were Romas.


Meh.

These clowns were in the news in Belgium lately. They occupied the land of a farmer, without asking the owner if it's ok, let alone paying him something for his trouble. When they were chased away, they whined about Belgium not showing enough hospitality.

Heh. When the first bunch of Romas got shipped back to Romania, they got interviewed by the AFP after their landing. All of them were bitching and whining about French people being racists, "almost as racist as Romanians". When asked if they were planning to come back, a few of them got the nerve to answer positively, because "it's quite easy to receive money from the state in France".

I don't know in what kind of world these people leave, but it looks like the completely fail to grasp what's going on around them.

[rvg]

thinner....

[Brenus]

“I don't know in what kind of world these people leave, but it looks like the completely fail to grasp what's going on around them.” All is better than the Roma situation in Rumania, Hungary, Croatia and Slovakia… Ghettos, discrimination, harassment etc…

[Ser Clegane]

thinner....
:laugh4:

[LittleGrizzly]

Haven't got much to add except a group of travellers moved into a field about 50 odd meters from my house a few years back, one or two rumors flew around, I even remember a younger friend claiming they had a gun over there (he is paticularly known for being a sensationalist) I walked through thier camp a few times (just on way somewhere or back not for the hell of it) never once even had a bad look let alone problems, I never remember hearing of any rise in crime or any other problems that could lead back to these people. They did leave a mess after they left (not much maybe an hours work for one person to get all the rubbish) and I doubt they paid for the field (it was in the grounds of a business that shut down so it wasn't used anyway) but they didn't really cause any problems...

Not to say they can't cause problems elsewhere just wanted to throw a non negative experience in there among the negative ones...

[drone]

No real input from me, but I just wanted to state that this thread has caused me to waste about 30 minutes of my life rewatching Snatch clips on YouTube.

That is all.

[gaelic cowboy]

Gotta love periwinkle blue terrible posh


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-0_sL5AAVQ&feature=related

[gaelic cowboy]

The one thing that gets me is the Traveller's as there called here always want some kind of right to a "Nomadic" culture. However last time I checked if your in receipt of social welfare you have to be available for work which is not possible in a nomadic existence as definded by themselves

[rory_20_uk]

So, pop to France for 3 months and get home for not just free but some cash too...

Did the French not realise that this is part of the wonderful EU they're hell bent on making?

~:smoking:

[Furunculus]

Interesting replies. So deporting is people is ok, but not asking them to simply rent-out fields opposed to tresspassing?

it was the reference to this:

Should we protect these minority cultures or get rid of them? I think we should get rid of them,
which could be construed as advocating an interventionist cultural/behavioral policy, that some might term social engineering. :)

[Vladimir]

No real input from me, but I just wanted to state that this thread has caused me to waste about 30 minutes of my life rewatching Snatch clips on YouTube.

That is all.

:2thumbsup:

[Brenus]

"Did the French not realise that this is part of the wonderful EU they're hell bent on making?" Well, the majority of the French voted against the European Constitution. And their opinion was ignored.



Posters are informed that Brenus' opinion on this matter is to be ignored :balloon2:

[Fragony]

"Did the French not realise that this is part of the wonderful EU they're hell bent on making?" Well, the majority of the French voted against the European Constitution. And their opinion was ignored.

Same here, we said no



Posters are informed that Fragony's opinion on this matter is to be ignored :balloon2:

[Megas Methuselah]

I get ignored all the damn time. Roll with it.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Louis did you just trade places with Seamus? Since when did you wield power in the backroom anyway?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Louis did you just trade places with Seamus? Since when did you wield power in the backroom anyway?I have struck down both green menaces, Seamus and Banquo....



They won't bother me anymore.


I have now become more powerful than you could possibly imagine...


http://planetsmilies.net/star-wars-smiley-6449.gif (http://planetsmilies.net/) http://planetsmilies.net/star-wars-smiley-6472.gif (http://planetsmilies.net/) http://planetsmilies.net/star-wars-smiley-6449.gif (http://planetsmilies.net/)




(http://planetsmilies.net/)

(http://planetsmilies.net/)

[Hosakawa Tito]

thinner....
Or in Sarkosy's case, shorter...

So, pop to France for 3 months and get home for not just free but some cash too...

Did the French not realise that this is part of the wonderful EU they're hell bent on making?

~:smoking:
Moral narcissism in action. Reminds me of US foreign policy, lately.

[Sarmatian]

And all this western ngo's in Serbia, and other eastern countries i presume, say how Romas are discriminated and how they should be treated by western standards. Right, expel them all I say.

Kidding aside, they are a huge problem because it's impossible to assimilate them, and by that I don't mean into a particular nation but into a western culture. They follow their own rules and completely ignore local laws.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I have struck down both green menaces, Seamus and Banquo....



They won't bother me anymore.


I have now become more powerful than you could possibly imagine...


http://planetsmilies.net/star-wars-smiley-6449.gif (http://planetsmilies.net/) http://planetsmilies.net/star-wars-smiley-6472.gif (http://planetsmilies.net/) http://planetsmilies.net/star-wars-smiley-6449.gif (http://planetsmilies.net/)




(http://planetsmilies.net/)

(http://planetsmilies.net/)

So what happened to you little drugs sideline in Virginia then?

[Andres]

"Did the French not realise that this is part of the wonderful EU they're hell bent on making?" Well, the majority of the French voted against the European Constitution. And their opinion was ignored.




Same here, we said no



Well, at least somebody asked for your opinions, nobody bothered to ask ours...

[Fragony]

Same here, we said no



Posters are informed that Fragony's opinion on this matter is to be ignored :balloon2:

Evil French

[Louis VI the Fat]

Well, at least somebody asked for your opinions, nobody bothered to ask ours...The Belgian constitution does not allow for a referendum. :book:

No Belgian is remotely interested in voting for any of his nine governments, none with any clear competence, but he is obliged to by law: voting is compulsory. Then when a Belgian does want to cast a vote, about a subject he does understands and cares about, he is disallowed to by law.


Belgium, quality entertainment! Europe's best running gag. :balloon2:

[Andres]

The Belgian constitution does not allow for a referendum. :book:

No Belgian is remotely interested in voting for any of his nine governments, none with any clear competence, but he is obliged to by law: voting is compulsory. Then when a Belgian does want to cast a vote, about a subject he does understands and cares about, he is disallowed to by law.


Belgium, quality entertainment! Europe's best running gag. :balloon2:

So true :shame:

:laugh4:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Interesting replies. So deporting is people is ok, but not asking them to simply rent-out fields opposed to tresspassing?

No, prosecuting people for breaking the law is ok, imprisoning and then deporting them is even ok, deporting them because you don't like them is not ok.

It hasn't been ok since Aethelred the Unready tried to innitiate a pogrom against the "Danes" in 1002 AD.

[Furunculus]

The Belgian constitution does not allow for a referendum. :book:

No Belgian is remotely interested in voting for any of his nine governments, none with any clear competence, but he is obliged to by law: voting is compulsory. Then when a Belgian does want to cast a vote, about a subject he does understands and cares about, he is disallowed to by law.


Belgium, quality entertainment! Europe's best running gag. :balloon2:

lol, says more about us than it does about bush:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/tony-blair/7975240/Tony-Blair-George-Bush-did-not-recognise-Belgian-prime-minister.html

“He didn’t know or recognise Guy, whose advice he listened to with considerable astonishment,” Mr Blair writes. “He then turned to me and whispered, ‘Who is this guy?’ ‘He is the prime minister of Belgium,’ I said.

“Belgium? George said, clearly aghast at the possible full extent of his stupidity. ‘Belgium is not part of the G8’.”

Mr Blair explained to Mr Bush that Mr Verhofstadt was there as “president of Europe”. Belgium held the presidency of the EU council at the time.

Mr Bush responded: “You got the Belgians running Europe?” before shaking his head, “now aghast at our stupidity”, Mr Blair writes.
roflmao!

[rory_20_uk]

Probably the most astute thing he's ever done.

~:smoking:

[al Roumi]

And all this western ngo's in Serbia, and other eastern countries i presume, say how Romas are discriminated and how they should be treated by western standards. Right, expel them all I say.

Kidding aside, they are a huge problem because it's impossible to assimilate them, and by that I don't mean into a particular nation but into a western culture. They follow their own rules and completely ignore local laws.

This is a tricky issue to say the least, and it's been interesting to read the posts here. I'm inclined to say that the Roma are now Europe's problem, rather than a Romanian issue.

As far as my 2 cents go, Sarmatian's point is key: The Roma are a problem because their way of life at least appear completely at odds with the settled populations of the countries they travel to/in. They also don't want to or can't be assimilated, presumably because they consider their way of life of cultural significance to themselves, but also because there is (for one or many reasons) not much sympathy from the settled populations and no easy path to economic/social integration (not much need for illiterate and unskilled migrant labour these days...).

I'm pretty sure there are "travelers" (there are so many different groups/names/types) in the UK who don't cause a massive disruption, either by owning land or otherwise or getting agreement from police/local authorities. Thing is, even when approached some places/people are quite likely to say "no thank you" to someone setting up a travellers' camp on bought land. I have no idea how travelers sustain their livelihoods.

Possibly the worst aspect of this is that the Roma live in abject poverty and ignorance, with little or no schooling for their kids -never mind health care. How much of this is by cause of circumstance or concscious choice?

No one should expect to get something for nothing, but you can't force people to give up a way of life either. Especially if you still expect/want to be seen as the enlightened corner of the world...

[Fragony]

By whom, roma's? Lefties? Do I really have to care about the opinion of useless eastern-euro trash or be-it-seventies-ultra-orthodoxists? I don't think so.

[al Roumi]

By whom, roma's? Lefties? Do I really have to care about the opinion of useless eastern-euro trash or be-it-seventies-ultra-orthodoxists? I don't think so.

No, by all means, you can continue to talk :daisy:

[Vladimir]

So true :shame:

:laugh4:

Reminds me of one of his prior posts:

http://zapatopi.net/belgium/

Brilliant!

[Fragony]

No, by all means, you can continue to talk :daisy:

Got a garden? Invite them over and exchange some recepies or stop being the the smug morally superior richboy from a 100% white neighbourhood with one kebab-shop where nobody ever got robbed.

[al Roumi]

Got a garden? Invite them over and exchange some recepies or stop being the the smug morally superior richboy from a 100% white neighbourhood with one kebab-shop where nobody ever got robbed.
LOL.

now, in seriousness, is "kick them out" as developed a position as you'd care to present on this issue?

I don't think my initial post says anything that should provoke/offend you. I just discussed some of the underlying issues and tried to indicate that simply kicking the Roma out of western european countries is not much of a mid or long term solution.

[Skullheadhq]

Got a garden? Invite them over and exchange some recepies or stop being the the smug morally superior richboy from a 100% white neighbourhood with one kebab-shop where nobody ever got robbed.

U mad?

Well anyway, I think we should create a Roma homeland, somewhere in Siberia.

[Fragony]

LOL.

now, in seriousness, is "kick them out" as developed a position as you'd care to present on this issue?

Is there any obligation we have?

[Furunculus]

U mad?

Well anyway, I think we should create a Roma homeland, somewhere in Siberia.

stalin was quite keen on that too. :D

[al Roumi]

Is there any obligation we have?

Well, afaik, as european citizens the Roma can't be kept wherever you kick them too. As raised above, what is to stop them returning to France after repatriation and receiving their payout? How effective do you judge a policy of removal/repatriation to be when the migrants are legally entitled to move around the EU as they please?

[Beskar]

They are not, in Romania's case. I believe, they are not full entitled members.

[Sarmatian]

True, there are some restrictions with Romanian and Bulgarian citizens, meaning they aren't given full rights like other members but eventually they will be given (5,10,20... years). What then? Their culture is simply incompatible with western culture and most of them will never be able to assimilate.

[Furunculus]

True, there are some restrictions with Romanian and Bulgarian citizens, meaning they aren't given full rights like other members but eventually they will be given (5,10,20... years). What then? Their culture is simply incompatible with western culture and most of them will never be able to assimilate.

hmmm, we should have thought about this before we engaged in the massive circile-jerk that is ever-deeper-union.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

This is a tricky issue to say the least, and it's been interesting to read the posts here. I'm inclined to say that the Roma are now Europe's problem, rather than a Romanian issue.

As far as my 2 cents go, Sarmatian's point is key: The Roma are a problem because their way of life at least appear completely at odds with the settled populations of the countries they travel to/in. They also don't want to or can't be assimilated, presumably because they consider their way of life of cultural significance to themselves, but also because there is (for one or many reasons) not much sympathy from the settled populations and no easy path to economic/social integration (not much need for illiterate and unskilled migrant labour these days...).

I'm pretty sure there are "travelers" (there are so many different groups/names/types) in the UK who don't cause a massive disruption, either by owning land or otherwise or getting agreement from police/local authorities. Thing is, even when approached some places/people are quite likely to say "no thank you" to someone setting up a travellers' camp on bought land. I have no idea how travelers sustain their livelihoods.

Possibly the worst aspect of this is that the Roma live in abject poverty and ignorance, with little or no schooling for their kids -never mind health care. How much of this is by cause of circumstance or concscious choice?

No one should expect to get something for nothing, but you can't force people to give up a way of life either. Especially if you still expect/want to be seen as the enlightened corner of the world...

The half-Roma I live with has toldme that her Romany Gypsy mother was keen for her to have at least basic schooling, but her showman "Traveller" father considered it useless.

She's an English Roma but her opinion of modern "travellers" in Britain and elsewhere is very very low.

[al Roumi]

The half-Roma I live with has toldme that her Romany Gypsy mother was keen for her to have at least basic schooling, but her showman "Traveller" father considered it useless.

I hope her mother got her way! Tragically, some won't have.


She's an English Roma but her opinion of modern "travellers" in Britain and elsewhere is very very low.

:) I understand (from my mother who is an ESOL teacher for state-school kids in my parents' county) that the different types of travellers are indeed very particular about their differences, not to mention rude about each other.

I was just googling trying to find some list of different traveller groups and came accross this, which is quite surprising:

http://www.travellerstimes.org.uk/website/Home.htm
It's funded by the Dept for Children, Schools and Families. Leads me to wonder though how long it will survice with the Big Society...

While browsing that site, I came acrross a pdf "guide to gypsies and travellers" which, providing you are interested in more than what size boot to wear when "kicking them out", should be interesting. Apparently, half of gypsies/travellers in the Uk live in houses (that don't have wheels) and don't have psycic powers. Also, on page 13 there is an explanation for why Wayne Rooney is so quarrelsome and likes bright colours.

[rory_20_uk]

Not long, I hope. Unlike the vast numbers of waves of immigrants that have come to the UK over the last thousand years or so and have integrated and enriched our society, as a group this lot haven't.

~:smoking:

[edyzmedieval]

Well, I live in the aforementioned place, so I only have to say that the Roma minority will return to France. Italy will be the next destination as well.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, the fact that France is considering the restriction of free travel of Romanians to the country is EXTREMELY racist from my part. I find it downright insulting. Not to mention it limits my ability of going wherever I wish to travel.

[Brenus]

Agree. Sakozy is the shame of France. Whatever the problems due to some Roma, the political exploitation is a form of racism even I doubt Sarkozy himself being Racist.

He even plans to break the Social Contract, the foundation of Modern France, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
He will create two sorts of French.

This man is a walking dishonour.

[rory_20_uk]

Are Romanians a race? I didn't think so.

Since he's not discriminating against a race, it isn't racist.

~:smoking:

[Tristuskhan]

Since he's not discriminating against a race, it isn't racist.

Indeed. Scientifically, there are no "races" within mankind, so, if I understand well from your point of view there is no racism of any kind anywhere since the last Neanderthalian died... What a joke...
Seen from the inside (of France), all the ******* thing is plain, outrageous racism. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Fragony]

Indeed. Scientifically, there are no "races" within mankind, so, if I understand well from your point of view there is no racism of any kind anywhere since the last Neanderthalian died... What a joke...
Seen from the inside (of France), all the ******* thing is plain, outrageous racism. Nothing more, nothing less.

So what if it is? People should stop whining about discrimination prejudice is experience most of the time; Roma's are pretty much useless.

[Fragony]

And what discrimination, the nasty look they get when they cling onto you sobbing until the extra fat Mercedes picks them up? Their kids can go to school but they drug them instead for that extra boohoohoo (yeah that is why they look so ill). And all the while leeching on state handouts. Going to blame France because they live a life of begging and stealing instead of getting an education and a job? They are travelers for a reason, people always eventually get sick of them.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Seeing as how concerning the subject I'm somewhat to the left of Idi Amin but slightly to the right of Frags and Hitler, some classic rock instead.


Scandal ft. Patty Smyth. One of rock's great underrated voices. A rock career cut short owing to record company troubles, she later went on to marry John McEnroe. She / they are currently touring again!


Goodbye to you! ~:wave:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH1O6nyKnow&feature=related

[Tristuskhan]

So what if it is? People should stop whining about discrimination prejudice is experience most of the time; Roma's are pretty much useless.

You're nervous, Frag... I don't complain about racism, knowing it's useless: racism exists and there's nothing I can do about it. I just find it deeply disturbing when racists clame they are not. Erh, in order to enlighten me, can you explain what you mean when you write "prejudice is experience", please, coz' it sounds hard to assimilate face value.
Oh and about your second message, the thing one should complain about is that Sarko uses Romanis, who are weak, ignorant, have no friends and are definitely antipathic, as a nice political tool to drag the debate away from his oligarchic-ultrafriendly policy, a policy that costs France much more than all Romanis can dream of. President 50 cent(imeters) is playing with fire...

[Rhyfelwyr]

Are Romanians a race? I didn't think so.

Yes, they are descended from the Roman settlers to Dacia. *where is the surprise smilie*

[Louis VI the Fat]

In the last few years, in just a few years, bidonvilles have sprung up at the edges of several French towns, Lille, Bordeaux, Saint-Denis. Imported third world slums: poverty, crime, misery .

I am sure it is all very tragic and blahblah, but just why France should solve the world's problems I don't understand. So as far as I'm concerned, Sarko can even kick it up a notch, and test and try the legal possibilities to get rid of them a bit more. Let the EU and Romania and everybody else shed their tear if they must.

My tears are only shed because I know they'll all be back in three months time.

Why oh why should some Roma who arrived in France in 2007, who's lived of stealing, begging and state support, who barely speaks any French, why should he be part of French solidarity? (In contrast to his cousin, who did not move to France several months ago and who lives 200 kilometer down the road?)
If there is a Roma problem, then let France help solve it in Romania and Bulgaria. Rather than import it. The world is full of poor people. There are a billion poor beggars who would love to set up a shanty town at the edge of some French city. I bet half the Vazelas of Rio de Janeiro would love to move themselves to Bordeaux, or Kinshasha, or all the poor of Bangladesh. Sorry, tough luck.



The economic powerhouse and capital of French gastronomy, Lyon. And it's bidonville, one third of its inhabitants children, who beg, steal and rummage through garbage for a living. I am not sure any of this adds any meaningful dimension to French society.
There are plenty of indigenous communities of itinerant peoples, with lots of unresolved difficulties. No need to import more.


https://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8209/romi039galleryphotopays.jpg

[Meneldil]

Why oh why should some Roma who arrived in France in 2007, who's lived of stealing, begging and state support, who barely speaks any French, why should he be part of French solidarity? (In contrast to his cousin, who did not move to France several months ago and who lives 200 kilometer down the road?)

That's my question too. Not only am I asked to bear with their constant bothering anytime I go to downtown, but I'd also have to pay for their healthcare and security, even though I don't share anything with these people? No way. There are already enough :daisy: who lives off the state. No need to add more.

[Tristuskhan]

That's my question too. Not only am I asked to bear with their constant bothering anytime I go to downtown, but I'd also have to pay for their healthcare and security, even though I don't share anything with these people? No way. There are already enough :daisy: who lives off the state. No need to add more.

Meh, probably I should think the same about southern white thrash, you know.

[Fragony]

Meh, probably I should think the same about southern white thrash, you know.

You can, that's 100% ok to say, putting things in perspective and all that gutmensch will call it. White trash, what can I say they exist, so why not help these first instead of importing more illiterates who will never contribute anything except making the pity-industry filthy rich.

[rory_20_uk]

Can't we export them both? ~;)

~:smoking:

[al Roumi]

Can't we export them both? ~;)

That was part of the point of the colonies... Slap 'em in irons and ship them off to another continent.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Took me a moment to connect "roma" with "gypsys" (still the common term in USA).

I wonder if some kind of "nomadic" citizenship rights/responsibilities thing could be promulgated.

Other thought...wouldn't a true EU citizenship negate the national borders anyway, making them no more of a barrier then state borders are in the USA?

[Furunculus]

Took me a moment to connect "roma" with "gypsys" (still the common term in USA).

I wonder if some kind of "nomadic" citizenship rights/responsibilities thing could be promulgated.

Other thought...wouldn't a true EU citizenship negate the national borders anyway, making them no more of a barrier then state borders are in the USA?

that's rather the problem, who wants the millions of romanian gypsies when the border restrictions are lifted!

[Meneldil]

Meh, probably I should think the same about southern white thrash, you know.

I'm tempted to say the reason why Southern France is plagued by unemployement, poverty and subsequently, macho-male-useless-white-trashes and pregant teens is because of the huge percentage of north-african population here. The second most visited website in my Region (Languedoc-Roussillon) is la CAF (behind chatroulette). Yep, that's how sad it is.

We attract all the trash of France, thanks to the sun, the beaches and Georges Frêche Imperator the First, who provides social housing to all kind of useless people. Thank me for taking care of your homeless punks. It's the garbage bin of the country.

[Tristuskhan]

I'm tempted to say the reason why Southern France is plagued by unemployement, poverty and subsequently, macho-male-useless-white-trashes and pregant teens is because of the huge percentage of north-african population here.

I understand you're upset but you'll need evidence about that. I've lived in Languedoc-Roussillon, I saw the unemployment, poverty et al. It was in Northern Lozère. Hard to blame it on North Africans up there, isn't it?


The second most visited website in my Region (Languedoc-Roussillon) is la CAF (behind chatroulette). Yep, that's how sad it is.

Sad, of course, but I'd like to figure how it is in other regions. My bet would be the difference is chatroulette, that fits so well to the natural superficiality of southern french people, but who knows?


We attract all the trash of France, thanks to the sun, the beaches and Georges Frêche Imperator the First, who provides social housing to all kind of useless people.

Same could be said about Brittany, apart from Big G(eorges Frêche), and now Brittany's north africans become hard-working good-tempered dominated-by-their-wives drunkards and pot-smokers as any Breton is... so I say blame it on the locals.


Thank me for taking care of your homeless punks.

And thank me for working and paying taxes for you all lazy sods...


It's the garbage bin of the country.

Love it or leave it, my advice.

[Meneldil]

I understand you're upset but you'll need evidence about that. I've lived in Languedoc-Roussillon, I saw the unemployment, poverty et al. It was in Northern Lozère. Hard to blame it on North Africans up there, isn't it?
I lived in Aurillac (Cantal) for 5 monthes. Cantal is - AFAIK - the second or third poorest departement in France. As soon as you leave downtown, the city is only made of social housing. Yet, even though I've seen some sad things (such as lot of homeless bums, etc.), I've never encountered the level of violence you can witness everyday in Montpellier. The only time I saw someone behaving like an ass (calling a girl "slut" in the middle of the street), it was a... a group of young arabs.
Even during the Festival du Théâtre de Rue, which attracts all the punks of France, you can still walk around the city at night without being annoyed every five minutes.


Sad, of course, but I'd like to figure how it is in other regions. My bet would be the difference is chatroulette, that fits so well to the natural superficiality of southern french people, but who knows?
As far as I know, Languedoc-Roussillon is the only region where La Caf was more visited than the Pôle Emploi. I'll look for the study again if you wish, but the results were published in the Midi Libre when I worked there this summer.


Same could be said about Brittany, apart from Big G(eorges Frêche), and now Brittany's north africans become hard-working good-tempered dominated-by-their-wives drunkards and pot-smokers as any Breton is... so I say blame it on the locals.
Good for you then. Though honestly, everytime I go to Brittany, I rarely see any north-african. There are some in Nantes and Rennes, but the further west you go, the less of them you meet. The situation doesn't really compare to Montpellier, Nîmes or Béziers, where north-africans make up between 30% and 40% of the population. It is much easier to assimilate a dozen of migrants than ten thousands of them.


And thank me for working and paying taxes for you all lazy sods...Love it or leave it, my advice.
I work and pay my taxes too, and I indeed don't plan on staying in the South. As for your paternalistic tone toward the South, that's kind of the Hôpital qui se fout de la charité, as Brittany has been regarded as one of the most backward part of France until not too long ago. Now it has this whole aura of coolness to it, but things havn't always been that way.

[gaelic cowboy]

Patty Smyth. One of rock's great underrated voices. A rock career cut short owing to record company troubles, she later went on to marry John McEnroe. She / they are currently touring again!


Goodbye to you! ~:wave:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH1O6nyKnow&feature=related

The years of hard living caught up with her I met her a few years back when I worked in Radisson hotel part time back in college she was there for some kind of evening with show. I had no clue who she was till I googled her she seems to be into painting now she displayed her work in the local gallery.

[Tristuskhan]

I work and pay my taxes too, and I indeed don't plan on staying in the South. As for your paternalistic tone toward the South, that's kind of the Hôpital qui se fout de la charité, as Brittany has been regarded as one of the most backward part of France until not too long ago. Now it has this whole aura of coolness to it, but things havn't always been that way.

Paternalistic, uh? There you got it... It's all a matter of where you draw the line between "them" and "us". Seen from brittany or wherever people still work a bit, all the south can be pictured as a whole bunch of useless idiots. Rightously shocking for you and many others? Indeed. But not more shocking than assimilating anyone of north-african (or how do you say down there? Boukaques? Gris? 'gnoules?) ascent to some scum like you do. Using your logics, I could say that since YOU were assimilated by "them", well you're now part of "them" and so should be considered like you consider "them".
Sorry, I was upset by the way you're puting every what? Let's say "arab", in the same basket. Insulting many people I know, including my father-in-law and many friends of mine. So I got to use your logics.

Ps: oh, and if you think there are no immigrants in western Brittany just have a walk in: Quartier Balzac in Saint Brieuc (where I'm from), Lanbezellec in Brest or Kervenanec in Lorient. Maybe you'll change your mind a bit.

[Fragony]

There are problems with immigrants and north-africans in particular, much more likely to be criminal and leech on tax, simply the reality, or isn't it. Had Mo and Tafik for dinner yesterday, Mo is Palistinian and Tafik is from Marocco, they tirelessly insist I got it all wrong and that I am an idiot, but at least they recognise that problem.

[Furunculus]

roflmao -

"Nicolas Sarkozy has sparked a bitter EU row by suggesting that the European Commissioner who compared his Roma policy to Nazi deportations should offer to host expelled gipsies in her native country of Luxembourg."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/luxembourg/8005614/Sarkozy-suggests-Roma-should-be-sent-to-Luxembourg.html

quite right sarko!:laugh4:

[InsaneApache]

LOL indeed.

For those who think the Roma are being unfairly treated, I say this. If you're that bothered open up your house to them and let them live in your back garden and see how long you keep your liberal attitudes.

Most on here know that I'm quite socially liberal but there are limits. I've had many dealings with 'travellers' and it's cost me a pretty penny or two. Behaviour such as begging, stealing and pickpocketing are not acceptable or desirable. Remember this, stealing destroys wealth.

[Fragony]

Kudos for that Hungarian midget. A valid screw you to a shameful comparison made by an a ivory-tower hypocrite eurocrat. About time she joins the post war resistance and offers them her garden. I bet they are also hungry, of to the kitchen.

[rory_20_uk]

As a cohort, they do not provide much tax and certainty not much infrastructure or healthcare, although will require a disproportionate amount themselves.

It is not the race, it is the mode of life that I object to as it has a clearly defined negative impact on society and the country.

~:smoking:

[_Tristan_]

Well, afaik, as european citizens the Roma can't be kept wherever you kick them too. As raised above, what is to stop them returning to France after repatriation and receiving their payout?

They are already one step ahead : some Roms who had accepted the 300€ to leave France and their lawyers had the good idea to cross the border into Belgium (witnessed by photograph) before crossing the border back for 3 new months of French tranquility and welfare, being now 300 € richer :2thumbsup:

On a sidenote, working in law enforcement, I can attest to the fact that we've seen a major drop in burglaries in the area I work since Rom camps evictions have begun... It is easy to draw a parallel from one to the next...

[Sarmatian]

I don`t think the issue is whether Roma are contributing to the society but whether those human right and certain western values we talk about constantly apply on everyone or just on the select few?

They are citizens of EU, if they are stealing, arrest them and convict them, don`t expel them.

[deguerra]

I suppose there are two distinct issues here.

Firstly (and what my own opinion has been focused on) there is the law, as in the EU directives that deal with how the freedom of movement is implemented in this case. Now I have no idea what exactly the law is, and from this thread and the media in general I gather that I am not alone. But, if it is the case that what France is doing is against EU law, then there must be consequences and it must stop. If our happy little European Union is going to work we cannot simply ignore it when we see fit (and I say this as a German who knows that we don't exactly have the best track record on this either). If, on the other hand (as others have suggested) what France is doing is correct or perhaps that the law is unclear then this becomes a completely distinct moral issue.

Morally, this is an entire different argument, and not one I think I have really made my mind up on. But suffice to say that while I think Human Rights etc cannot be ignored, I agree that France must look first to the rights of its own citizens and that an ethnic group or race or culture cannot be given endless freedoms and require endless costs of the French state just because stopping so might be seen as "discriminatory", It is, after all, not the fact that they are part of this ethnic group or race or culture that is the problem, but rather their behaviour.

Then of course you can talk about whether our happy little European Union (yes I will continue to use that phrase :P) should ever have gotten so wide before it got a bit "deeper", but at the end of the day that is a mostly philosophical argument now. Leaders need to implement vision, that vision led to the wider EU and now we have to deal with situations in that reality.

[rory_20_uk]

I don`t think the issue is whether Roma are contributing to the society but whether those human right and certain western values we talk about constantly apply on everyone or just on the select few?

They are citizens of EU, if they are stealing, arrest them and convict them, don`t expel them.

Yes, they are two seperate issues but intertwined.

Those "human rights" and "Western values" are areas of dogma that hobble Europe in dealing with the rest of the world as we continue to moralise to countries who then merely go to China / India where they can get the goods / loans without the "holier than thou" drivel.
"Western values" in general is more about accepting everything and everyone from everywhere and ensuring that the indigenous culture doesn't upset anyone else.

So, back to the point in hand: those rights should apply to only those citizens / subjects from the country and then only when they have committed no crime. Others are guests of the state. Guests behave, fit in, are nice to the host and leave when asked.

~:smoking:

[Furunculus]

I suppose there are two distinct issues here.

Firstly (and what my own opinion has been focused on) there is the law, as in the EU directives that deal with how the freedom of movement is implemented in this case. Now I have no idea what exactly the law is, and from this thread and the media in general I gather that I am not alone. But, if it is the case that what France is doing is against EU law, then there must be consequences and it must stop. If our happy little European Union is going to work we cannot simply ignore it when we see fit (and I say this as a German who knows that we don't exactly have the best track record on this either). If, on the other hand (as others have suggested) what France is doing is correct or perhaps that the law is unclear then this becomes a completely distinct moral issue.

Morally, this is an entire different argument, and not one I think I have really made my mind up on. But suffice to say that while I think Human Rights etc cannot be ignored, I agree that France must look first to the rights of its own citizens and that an ethnic group or race or culture cannot be given endless freedoms and require endless costs of the French state just because stopping so might be seen as "discriminatory", It is, after all, not the fact that they are part of this ethnic group or race or culture that is the problem, but rather their behaviour.

Then of course you can talk about whether our happy little European Union (yes I will continue to use that phrase :P) should ever have gotten so wide before it got a bit "deeper", but at the end of the day that is a mostly philosophical argument now. Leaders need to implement vision, that vision led to the wider EU and now we have to deal with situations in that reality.

>if< it is illegal to deport undesirables I would have to say; "WTF!" At what point did it become a good idea to discard the power to act on behalf of both the welfare and the wellbeing of your citizens?

[caravel]

They contribute nothing, except to crime and make a huge mess, so they should go - race doesn't even come into it. Spain and others should follow suit.

[Cronos Impera]

Well, just to give you a reply from a Romanian.

I just saw a Noua Dreapta (New Right) protest in front of the French embassy in Bucharest. They fully supported Sinti integration in France.

Most Sinti who ware returned planned on bringing their relatives with them next time.

Sinti aren't leaving because of <<insert masturbatory socialist newspeak here>>. They're leaving just like Romanians leave to find a better paid job (despite French investments such as done by Renault).

And Sinti are at home everywhare they want.

Last time I went in France to climb Mont Blanc Paris was already a beacon for bosquetars.

Just as a quirk...in Romania we call bums and street people boschetari, inspired by "Les Bosquets" neighbourhood in Paris.

[Fragony]

It's a discriminating policy directed at a specific group, of course it's racist policy no way around it. It's also about bloody time and simply commen sense. Sarkozy is quite right to give the finger to the hysterical godwin-spamming morally superior self-congratulating gutmensch, I like the guy. Absolutely corrupt of course but if you aren't corrupt the French won't trust you, got to love them.

edit: I thought Sinti were a different tribe? Never heard of Sinti's causing trouble, a few who call themselves sinti live here and the term Roma is an insult they use among themselves for thieves.

[Sarmatian]

Yes, they are two seperate issues but intertwined.

Those "human rights" and "Western values" are areas of dogma that hobble Europe in dealing with the rest of the world as we continue to moralise to countries who then merely go to China / India where they can get the goods / loans without the "holier than thou" drivel.
"Western values" in general is more about accepting everything and everyone from everywhere and ensuring that the indigenous culture doesn't upset anyone else.

So, back to the point in hand: those rights should apply to only those citizens / subjects from the country and then only when they have committed no crime. Others are guests of the state. Guests behave, fit in, are nice to the host and leave when asked.

~:smoking:

They are Romanian citizens and Romania is an EU member. The same right should apply for all EU members because that's kind of what EU is based on. We're all equal but some of us are more equal than the others doesn't really sit well with what EU stands for...

[rory_20_uk]

They are Romanian citizens and Romania is an EU member. The same right should apply for all EU members because that's kind of what EU is based on. We're all equal but some of us are more equal than the others doesn't really sit well with what EU stands for...

Damn right. So, scrap the EU and problem solved!

The EU is, and always has been a mess. It's a hideous gestalt which has expended without thought or adequate oversight. These examples just show what a mess it truly is.

If I were to go to work in Dubai I have leave to remain basically for as long as I have a job. After that time I'm pretty much deported.
I'm expected to be a net gain to the Emirate. Debt = jail.
I'm expected to abide their laws. Crime = deportation.

They protect themselves first and everybody else a distant second. That should be the basis of other countries.

~:smoking:

[Furunculus]

They are Romanian citizens and Romania is an EU member. The same right should apply for all EU members because that's kind of what EU is based on. We're all equal but some of us are more equal than the others doesn't really sit well with what EU stands for...

that's the EU's problem, speaking for myself only; it isn't britain's problem.

[Fragony]

They are Romanian citizens and Romania is an EU member. The same right should apply for all EU members because that's kind of what EU is based on. We're all equal but some of us are more equal than the others doesn't really sit well with what EU stands for...

Why give a crap about what the EU stands for. Screw the EU. Hard deep relentless and unsafe preferably.

[Cronos Impera]

It's a discriminating policy directed at a specific group, of course it's racist policy no way around it. It's also about bloody time and simply commen sense. Sarkozy is quite right to give the finger to the hysterical godwin-spamming morally superior self-congratulating gutmensch, I like the guy. Absolutely corrupt of course but if you aren't corrupt the French won't trust you, got to love them.

edit: I thought Sinti were a different tribe? Never heard of Sinti's causing trouble, a few who call themselves sinti live here and the term Roma is an insult they use among themselves for thieves.

About immigration laws, you Dutch are hypocrites. You won the female ping pong championship with naturalised Chinese-chicks.

But when it comes to Sinti's, Arabs and other less demanded human resources you cry immigration laws and close the buffet.


I love Brittish media. All newspeak Times ware apalled by the large number of RO passports given to RM citizens (100000 per year) who are still Caucasian and European, while Downing Street gives thousands of "refugees" political asylum, many being of course former colonial subjects. France does the same to its former Algerian subjects.

[Fragony]

About immigration laws, you Dutch are hypocrites. You won the female ping pong championship with naturalised Chinese-chicks.

But when it comes to Sinti's, Arabs and other less demanded human resources you cry immigration laws and close the buffet.

Just because you need a job doesn't mean we have a vacancy, do you happen to be good at ping pong for example? Kthxbye

Only a few don't feel welcome here, for various reasons, but what they all have in common is that they are costing us money. Are you good at ping-pong bythe way? Just asking

edit: in the meantime a plot on the head of testicolus habet et bene tres bien et petite mon chere testiculos was foiled, sorry to hear it failed really. But free traffic should only be between equal civilisations anyways. So not with Arbabians and Southern/Eastern Euoropeans. Chinese and Indians, welcome.

[Louis VI the Fat]

The same right should apply for all EU members :laugh4::laugh4:



I'm going to get me some of what you're smoking!




'...the same rules for France...'

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:


:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:


*snickers*


'...equal member states...'


:laugh4:


what planet's he from what planet's he from

[Cronos Impera]

Just because you need a job doesn't mean we have a vacancy, do you happen to be good at ping pong for example? Kthxbye

Only a few don't feel welcome here, for various reasons, but what they all have in common is that they are costing us money. Are you good at ping-pong bythe way? Just asking

I am good at ping pong with my left hand. I suck with my right hand.

Well, when you open a high pressure valve always expect some spills. You have the biggest ports in Europe and that brings unlimited growth potential. Holland can always have job vacancies. You are connected to the Danube through the Rhine, have direct acces to the North Sea and the Atlantic, limitless farming opportunities. Holland will always have a job vacancy.

Sinti's are interested in Holland because they can get involved in the tulip trade and entertainment industry.Many sinti's who work in Romania legally own a flower shop or are related somehow to that trade (When you go to your grandfather's grave and put a rose on the grave you have to trimm it so noone steals it). With the dropping trend of burials and dates in Romania, many Sinti's are looking forward to expand their trade in France.

[Fragony]

I am good at ping pong with my left hand. I suck with my right hand.

Well, when you open a high pressure valve always expect some spills. You have the biggest ports in Europe and that brings unlimited growth potential. Holland can always have job vacancies. You are connected to the Danube through the Rhine, have direct acces to the North Sea and the Atlantic, limitless farming opportunities. Holland will always have a job vacancy.

That's just us being good at being good at being right between England Germany and France for quite some time. It's still absolutely tiny, trade enough though, but not jobs

[Cronos Impera]

Don't forget about Belgium and Luxembourg. Some Wallons may feel slightly offended if you forget to mention Belgium.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

They are Romanian citizens and Romania is an EU member. The same right should apply for all EU members because that's kind of what EU is based on. We're all equal but some of us are more equal than the others doesn't really sit well with what EU stands for...

I don`t think the issue is whether Roma are contributing to the society but whether those human right and certain western values we talk about constantly apply on everyone or just on the select few?

They are citizens of EU, if they are stealing, arrest them and convict them, don`t expel them.

How is this applying human rights to "just a select few"? Isn't it the vast majority?

I just don't get what your argument is. It seems like you're starting from a short version of a principle and then just applying it without asking why the people who came up with it believed in it. Now I don't know what the EU version of rights says but obviously you can't just appeal to that authority. However I think the fact that they are conditional is fundamental to the concept of rights. Your right to life is conditional on you not trying to murder someone. The rights of citizenry are conditional on them being active citizens.

[Fragony]

Don't forget about Belgium and Luxembourg. Some Wallons may feel slightly offended if you forget to mention Belgium.

What about the walloons, they can beg for money in France. Maybe the Flemish will one day want to reunite, making the Dutch the dominant economic power again, Rotterdam and Antwerp the gates of Europe. But anti-dutch resentment goes very deep with our southern neighbours they used to be the most advanced, our city's are nothing compared to the majestic Flemish ones. Maybe we should just join them and just disband the Netherlands and Belgium and call it Greater Flanders. It just makes sense.

[gaelic cowboy]

RO passports given to RM citizens (100000 per year)

Whats an RO passport???

[Prince Cobra]

Whats an RO passport???

Romanian.

P.S. Interesting thread. IMHO, Sarkozy is out. This is desperate attempt to woo the electorate and won't solve any of the problems with his populism.

[Sarmatian]

How is this applying human rights to "just a select few"? Isn't it the vast majority?

I just don't get what your argument is. It seems like you're starting from a short version of a principle and then just applying it without asking why the people who came up with it believed in it. Now I don't know what the EU version of rights says but obviously you can't just appeal to that authority. However I think the fact that they are conditional is fundamental to the concept of rights. Your right to life is conditional on you not trying to murder someone. The rights of citizenry are conditional on them being active citizens.

Simple - I'm just asking if a group of Germans or Italians would receive the same treatment. If 4 Germans come to France and live in the same place, one is working, two aren't and one is stealing, would it be okay to expel all of them?

[Brenus]

“The rights of citizenry are conditional on them being active citizens.” Err, no. UNIVERSAL is the clue.
And if to be “active” is the key to citizenship what about pensioners, children and women or men at home?
If you try to put conditions you can decide that only certain categories of the populations are citizens. As Bush the 1st declared when saying than atheist are neither patriotic nor “true” Americans.
Or as in Star ship Troopers world imagined by Robert Heinlein, the fact to join the Army…
Or it could be about wealth, property etc…

[cegorach]

In the 1990s a lot of Roma were travelling to Poland, present in virtually every smaller or larger town or city.

There were even some settlements in the suburbs of larger cities.

I think that a number of them was dismantled by the police, but don't know how many. There were also rare cases (I remember one, in Mława) of small riots where locals attempted to 'deal with the problem'.



No solution was really found, they've just moved on as borders opened to Sweden, Germany and further away, but I know that for example in Poznań they've successfully implemented the slogan not to give them anything because there is almost no unemployement anyway and anyone can earn for himself or herself if he/she really wants.

Currently very few Romanian Roma appear on streets of town in Poland, Polish ones are very few in numbers so I don't think they are even a problem.



BTW When I was a kid my neighbour was a Roma. Quite friendly people and too me - not so wealthy child from not too rich neighbourhood - they seemed very prosperous - they've even had a video recorder! (1980s kids, 1980s!).

Later I've learnt they were stealing in Germany.







Pretty all I can say about this subject - the problem is damn hard to solve and although I don't like the way it is handled I don't think I can preach about moral values and such in face of such misery and organised crime under supervision of filthy rich relatives and ordinary mobsters.

What I am afraid is that the Roma might find themselves in a position where the only life they can aspire for is to become a successful gangster, because petty thievery, begging and overseeing young criminals is no future for anyone with a trace of ambition.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Simple - I'm just asking if a group of Germans or Italians would receive the same treatment. If 4 Germans come to France and live in the same place, one is working, two aren't and one is stealing, would it be okay to expel all of them?


n addition, there are about 12,000 Roma from Bulgaria and Romania, many of whom live in unauthorised camps in urban areas across the country, according the French Roma rights umbrella group FNASAT.
...
They have the right to enter France without a visa, but under special rules they must have work or residency permits if they wish to stay longer than three months.

Unauthorised camps, require work or residency permits, these are key details.


“The rights of citizenry are conditional on them being active citizens.” Err, no. UNIVERSAL is the clue.
And if to be “active” is the key to citizenship what about pensioners, children and women or men at home?
If you try to put conditions you can decide that only certain categories of the populations are citizens. As Bush the 1st declared when saying than atheist are neither patriotic nor “true” Americans.
Or as in Star ship Troopers world imagined by Robert Heinlein, the fact to join the Army…
Or it could be about wealth, property etc…

You can't decide to add conditions to natural rights (like you can to legal rights). But there are conditions inherent.

"endowed with certain unalienable rights, and that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"

You have the unalienable right to liberty--and so does a murderer who has been put in jail. That's because having the right to liberty doesn't mean "can't be put in jail no matter what". It's more like "you can't be put in jail if you don't kill someone (etc)".

So when it comes to deportation, it's clearly "you won't be deported unless...". Now Sarmatian has plenty of room to argue that the conditions here don't qualify as an "unless". But that argument has to be made, rather than a simple appeal.

It may be that france has run afoul of the EU's conception of rights, but that conception can be wrong.

*****

Also, I thought this was funny:


What will happen to the Roma who have been sent home?

Bulgarian and Romanian Roma face discrimination at home, and Roma communities in both countries have faced forced evictions.

Bad france!! :laugh4:

[Fragony]

A great, we know how to handle them, just give them a 1.000.000+ monumental house + parking lot to park their 200.000 mercedes for free. That will work, since it has never been tried there is no reason it won't be the same as everything that has been tried before. Leftist logic at work.

[Brenus]

“A great, we know how to handle them, just give them a 1.000.000+ monumental house + parking lot to park their 200.000 mercedes for free. That will work, since it has never been tried there is no reason it won't be the same as everything that has been tried before. Leftist logic at work.”
Put them a scrape yard, preferably with heavy metal dump zone near the spring they drink, at the end of the world, surround the area by fences and wires, no need of schools or documents and let them rot. Rightist proven solution at work.
Ah: and all is their fault...

[Fragony]

This family has been replaced multiple times, made a mess everywhere, kicked out of their houses many times, they are pretty notorious in Utrecht and surroundings. Living space is naturally extremely expensive here, if you can't buy it takes years before you are of the waiting list to rent an affordable house. They have been given priority status 6 times already, got the house 6 times, screwed up everything and everyone 6 times, and now they get a 1.000.000+ villa. Can you explain that to a friend of mine who lives on a camping with her two kids for 3 years because there aren't enough houses. No priority. I know the treatment of Roma's in Europe can be really harsh and frankly inhuman, but bad behaviour shouldn't be rewarded like it is here. I know this family personally they are great fun for a beer, but none of them works, drink all day, and do nothing but (small) crime.

[Fragony]

This family has been replaced multiple times, made a mess everywhere, kicked out of their houses many times, they are pretty notorious in Utrecht and surroundings. Living space is naturally extremely expensive here, if you can't buy it takes years before you are of the waiting list to rent an affordable house. They have been given priority status 6 times already, got the house 6 times, screwed up everything and everyone 6 times, and now they get a 1.000.000+ villa. Can you explain that to a friend of mine who lives on a camping with her two kids for 3 years because there aren't enough houses. No priority.

[Brenus]

“Can you explain that to a friend of mine who lives on a camping with her two kids for 3 years because there aren't enough houses. No priority.” No, I can’t. Nor I can explain why my stepdaughter with 2 kids (one with (light) disabilities) is still living with me and her mother in a 2 bedrooms house. As she has a roof on her head she is not priority.
Technically it is true even that means her 4 years daughter is actually sleeping in my bedroom, if the those is overcrowded and the stairs are dangerous for her.
But all this is not a reason to treat badly others vulnerable people.

For political reasons some Eastern Countries were allowed to join the EU. The same EU turned blind eyes on the mistreatment of certain minorities, as they were not worth of a NATO attack on potential allies. Or in a particular still in limbo country it is even worst because the Roma are oppressed by the ones who were “liberated” from the yoke of oppression of a majority, so the goodies turned not to be so good… And this is better to be ignored.

French President foxily used this issue to gain point internally and succeeded to highjack all international Meetings in order to present himself as the Protector of France against the Bureaucrats from Brussels or others Foreign Powers.
Not that the EU is exempt of blame. In allowing the free immigration in order to low down the social standard (as in the now known as the Bolkestein Directive) to please their Business and Free Marketer Masters, they opened the doors to this kind of behaviours. They didn’t obliged the Countries of Origins to resolve the appalling situation as, hey, the Market resolves every thing, you know, big Society and less State is what is required…
The nowadays EU is not about Human Rights and all theses Lefties thingies, but “The Spice must Flow”…
And then, the ultimate responsibility lay on the Countries of Origin of the Roma population. How is it possible that the Roma so badly treated in France still preferred to live on French pile of garbage than in their country? Perhaps it is because the even most Racist French Police Officer will be still more polite than the usual native one? At least they don’t get a beating-up. The water is clean, and to walk few km is quite usual for them.
If they are thieves it is perhaps because they had no other fields of expertise learnedfrom their Country of Origin, except begging, music and recycling cardboard and used batteries…

Unfortunately for Sarkozy, most of the French still remember he was the one who disdain the Referendum on European Constitution so was at the roots of the problem. Shamelessly trying to avoid the consequence of his failed policy, he is choosing to destroy what allowed him to be actually the French President as himself is a second generation immigrate.

[Brenus]

“Can you explain that to a friend of mine who lives on a camping with her two kids for 3 years because there aren't enough houses. No priority.” No, I can’t. Nor I can explain why my stepdaughter with 2 kids (one with (light) disabilities) is still living with me and her mother in a 2 bedrooms house. As she has a roof on her head she is not priority.
Technically it is true even that means her 4 years daughter is actually sleeping in my bedroom, if the those is overcrowded and the stairs are dangerous for her.
But all this is not a reason to treat badly others vulnerable people.

For political reasons some Eastern Countries were allowed to join the EU. The same EU turned blind eyes on the mistreatment of certain minorities, as they were not worth of a NATO attack on potential allies. Or in a particular still in limbo country it is even worst because the Roma are oppressed by the ones who were “liberated” from the yoke of oppression of a majority, so the goodies turned not to be so good… And this is better to be ignored.

French President foxily used this issue to gain point internally and succeeded to highjack all international Meetings in order to present himself as the Protector of France against the Bureaucrats from Brussels or others Foreign Powers.
Not that the EU is exempt of blame. In allowing the free immigration in order to low down the social standard (as in the now known as the Bolkestein Directive) to please their Business and Free Marketer Masters, they opened the doors to this kind of behaviours. They didn’t obliged the Countries of Origins to resolve the appalling situation as, hey, the Market resolves every thing, you know, big Society and less State is what is required…
The nowadays EU is not about Human Rights and all theses Lefties thingies, but “The Spice must Flow”…
And then, the ultimate responsibility lay on the Countries of Origin of the Roma population. How is it possible that the Roma so badly treated in France still preferred to live on French pile of garbage than in their country? Perhaps it is because the even most Racist French Police Officer will be still more polite than the usual native one? At least they don’t get a beating-up. The water is clean, and to walk few km is quite usual for them.
If they are thieves it is perhaps because they had no other fields of expertise learnedfrom their Country of Origin, except begging, music and recycling cardboard and used batteries…

Unfortunately for Sarkozy, most of the French still remember he was the one who disdain the Referendum on European Constitution so was at the roots of the problem. Shamelessly trying to avoid the consequence of his failed policy, he is choosing to destroy what allowed him to be actually the French President as himself is a second generation immigrate.

[Fragony]

Nor is there any reason to treat them better than our own because they are treated badly somewhere else. If they have gotten a house someone else didn't, gotten it six 6 others didn't, who are Dutch citizens, probably don't have an extensive criminal record, and work for their money (camping ain't cheap, 400 euro to live in an old caravan). I'll make a few pics to properly depress you, it's a mess, there is one shower, two dirty toilets, they live like wellyouget.

[Louis VI the Fat]

“Can you explain that to a friend of mine who lives on a camping with her two kids for 3 years because there aren't enough houses. No priority.” No, I can’t. Nor I can explain why my stepdaughter with 2 kids (one with (light) disabilities) is still living with me and her mother in a 2 bedrooms house. As she has a roof on her head she is not priority.
Technically it is true even that means her 4 years daughter is actually sleeping in my bedroom, if the those is overcrowded and the stairs are dangerous for her.
But all this is not a reason to treat badly others vulnerable people.

For political reasons some Eastern Countries were allowed to join the EU. The same EU turned blind eyes on the mistreatment of certain minorities, as they were not worth of a NATO attack on potential allies. Or in a particular still in limbo country it is even worst because the Roma are oppressed by the ones who were “liberated” from the yoke of oppression of a majority, so the goodies turned not to be so good… And this is better to be ignored.

French President foxily used this issue to gain point internally and succeeded to highjack all international Meetings in order to present himself as the Protector of France against the Bureaucrats from Brussels or others Foreign Powers.
Not that the EU is exempt of blame. In allowing the free immigration in order to low down the social standard (as in the now known as the Bolkestein Directive) to please their Business and Free Marketer Masters, they opened the doors to this kind of behaviours. They didn’t obliged the Countries of Origins to resolve the appalling situation as, hey, the Market resolves every thing, you know, big Society and less State is what is required…
The nowadays EU is not about Human Rights and all theses Lefties thingies, but “The Spice must Flow”…
And then, the ultimate responsibility lay on the Countries of Origin of the Roma population. How is it possible that the Roma so badly treated in France still preferred to live on French pile of garbage than in their country? Perhaps it is because the even most Racist French Police Officer will be still more polite than the usual native one? At least they don’t get a beating-up. The water is clean, and to walk few km is quite usual for them.
If they are thieves it is perhaps because they had no other fields of expertise learnedfrom their Country of Origin, except begging, music and recycling cardboard and used batteries…

Unfortunately for Sarkozy, most of the French still remember he was the one who disdain the Referendum on European Constitution so was at the roots of the problem. Shamelessly trying to avoid the consequence of his failed policy, he is choosing to destroy what allowed him to be actually the French President as himself is a second generation immigrate.Well my poor heart bleeds now. I'm casting my eyes down in shame over my support for this fascist policy. http://matousmileys.free.fr/tr36.gif


But pray tell - where was your protest last year when France expelled those 11.000 non-Roma Romanians? :sneaky:

[Brenus]

“I'm casting my eyes down in shame over my support for this fascist policy”: Good. Don’t forget to shave your head, put some ashes and wear a toile de bure. No need to go to Canossa.

“But pray tell - where was your protest last year when France expelled those 11.000 non-Roma Romanians?”
Was it based on ethnicity? Why do you (or did he) made a difference between Romanians Citizens and why the cameras are pointed only on a certain category of them?
Ethnic Cleansing was not good in Former Yugoslavia and good enough for France… Does NATO do something about it?
This President is the one who decided to disdain the People Referendum about Europe and now when some fringes of Eastern Countries used the right HE gave to them to move freely, he made political gestures and racist one.
To expel community in breach of the laws is ok when you respect the laws yourself. So Sarkozy and his government are far from the desired criteria.
So to answer your (sneaky) question I was nowhere to see as no question was raised about these expulsions… And I didn’t hear about them… To be completely honest…

[Strike For The South]

As a fellow Frenchman. I weep for the day when France becomes mired in the ethnic sturggles that those pig dog Americans are stuck.

France is about culture and language. Not what peice of land your mother spit you out on.

[gaelic cowboy]

Does this craic mean that the phrase "Vive la Différence" needs to be changed now to "Monolingues Vivent"








:book: I could't find a translation for monoglot

[Fragony]

As a fellow Frenchman. I weep for the day when France becomes mired in the ethnic sturggles that those pig dog Americans are stuck.

France is about culture and language. Not what peice of land your mother spit you out on.

30 years too late for that, France is a mess. I'd rather take a stroll in Detroit than any French banlieux. I suspect the Roma's are an excuse to be able to kick out the Africans next, can't blame them.

[Strike For The South]

30 years too late for that, France is a mess. I'd rather take a stroll in Detroit than any French banlieux. I suspect the Roma's are an excuse to be able to kick out the Africans next, can't blame them.

https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/9376/jeanmarielepen.jpg (https://img248.imageshack.us/i/jeanmarielepen.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (https://imageshack.us)

[gaelic cowboy]

One two ding ding and Strike is in with the knockout


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B22NUQGoevk&feature=related

[Fragony]

https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/9376/jeanmarielepen.jpg (https://img248.imageshack.us/i/jeanmarielepen.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (https://imageshack.us)

Well yeah his kind is having a laugh allright, or am I his kind