Is Sarkosy wrong to try and repatriate the Roma, and should we be sympathetic of Papy

[Furunculus]

Pensioner René Galinier has become the face of a fierce debate in France over their Roma community and the limits of liberté, égalité and fraternité:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ng-France.html

Nissan-lez-Ensérunes, where four generations of the Galinier family currently live, provides a vivid snapshot of why it has become such a charged issue in France. Not far from Montpellier, it is a picture-postcard image of southern French living, with elegant stone houses set among narrow winding streets filled with flowers.

Mr Galinier has lived in the village for over 70 years, raising his two children, working for the local council, then retiring to spend time with his wife and grandchildren and tend his garden. Swings stand in front of his wooden-shuttered bungalow, and a small table and chairs is set under the tree in the front garden by a pile of neatly chopped logs.

But his idyllic-looking home was not immune from the petty crime problems also affecting the rest of France. Mr Galinier had been targeted by criminals twice before; in 2002, when thieves attempted to break in, and in February this year when his goldfish were stolen from the pond.

Among villagers, the finger of blame for local petty crime often points - rightly or wrongly - to a patch of wasteland several miles outside the village, where a group of Roma have recently made camp next to a motorway. The families and their gaggles of wild-haired children live in ramshackle caravans among piles of rubbish, discarded furniture and old car tyres.

On the afternoon of August 5, two girls in their early twenties broke into Mr Galinier's home. The unarmed pair, who speak no French and have not given police their names, were both shot at from just a few metres' distance. One was hit on the groin, the other in the chest. Both are now in hospital awaiting identification and questioning - although one of the girls is thought to be already known to the police.

Mr Galinier's story, with its strong echoes of the British case of Norfolk farmer Tony Martin, has resonated throughout the village and beyond.

A support committee has been set up to fight for his cause, and signs have been spray-painted on the road to Nissan proclaiming "We're right behind you, René". A petition in the town hall, supermarket and local shops has over 8,000 signatures, with 10,000 from as far afield as the USA joining the campaign on Facebook and internet forums.

Picking her way among broken bottles, discarded sofas and heaps of rubbish, Mikaela Josephine, 19, is only interested in avoiding being sent back to Romania. "It's wrong, what Mr Sarkozy is doing," the mother-of-two said. "But I don't want to go back there. It is more racist than France."

And you wonder why France is drifting in the same direction?

[Furunculus]

I still come up against resistance to the common-sense concept that peoples are the product of their shared social and cultural history, and that a people who are subject to an influx of 'others' whose culture is very different are likely to view this as an invasion, especially if those 'others' are perceived to impact of the daily conduct of local life, and doubly so when those locals feel powerless to do anything about it.

The default response I come up against from people who refuse to accept this blindingly obvious logic is to wave away the problem by branding the local population as a bunch of worthless bigots, who could do with a little education in open-minded toleration and appreciation of other ways of life.

My response is that the states first duty is the welfare and well-being of its people, and to understand that people particularly from rural areas quite often live there because they appreciate the integration and cohesion of the local community, so leave them be. This is not to say that urban types won't thrive in mutli-cultural metropolis's, or that they are wrong to do so, horses for courses, merely that foreign 'invasions' particularly of those who lifestyle jars with that integrated and cohesive community spirit are deeply divisive and antagonistic to the welfare and well-being of the local people.

Why is my response to actively assist in the non-interference in other peoples lives, whereas others take a legalistic view that any deviation from the principles deemed acceptable by urbanites is automatically branded bigotry and sufficient justification for intrusive social engineering?

I personally have every sympathy with that french village, and am more than happy to see sarkozy working to increase the well-being of the people for whom he is responsible, regardless of whether it is for shallow politic reasons.

[Meneldil]

This whole fuss is kind of silly actually.

Roma are *paid* (300€) to return to their country. The EU laws state that Roma can stay 3 monthes in a EU country before said country can kick them out. That's what Sarkozy is doing, and if polls are a correct indication (which they aren't), then most French people agree with him.

In Montpellier, there are around 30 Romas hanging in the most populated areas. The adults ask for money, play music or wash cars, while the kids are pickpockets and prostitutes. They get state funding as an additional source of income. Even though they're not entitled to get it after three monthes. Most of the money they make is given to the local mafia leader, who keeps a share and sends the rest back to Romania.
The last time the cops tried to make them move their camps, they found out most of the kids have scabbies.

I don't know what the solution is, but I don't want my taxes to be given to thieves and burglars.

Edit: As for the old man, I've followed the affair closely since I work at the local newspaper. Even though I think I would have acted the same way, he broke the law and thus deserves to face a trial. It's quite likely he wouldn't have received a harsh sentence, if it weren't for some of his declarations (such as "I've become racist, I hate this dirty race"). Having said that to the cops, it's likely the judge won't be as lenient with him.

As a whole, I think the situation in France is becoming direr and direr everyday. I suspect the far right will beat the left at the next presidential elections. I also fear another spark of this kind (old people molested/young girl raped by arabs/romas/gypsies) will turn people violent. The situation is really tense in southern France. Left or right, handworker or journalist, I can't recall of anyone who doesn't think immigration is destroying this region.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I would kick them out, the state should respect the rights and liberties of its citizens but not foreigners that have no place being there.

Immigration should only be allowed as long as it is beneficial to the native population. These Roma clearly do not contribute anything the the country.

And I don't see this as bigotry, just common sense. When the Roma learn that living in caravans through crime and begging isn't a very sensible thing to do in the 21st century, they should be allowed to immigrate just as anyone else. Race is nothing to do with it, I don't expect to be able to go and live by a rubbish dump in Germany and exist by mugging the local population.

[Fragony]

Italy is going to do the same, thankfully begging is illegal here and the children are forced to go to school so they hardly settle here, only some street musicians, rather good ones. But they are a serious problem in the south, yeah send them packing, and if that's racist so what really

[Furunculus]

The thing that really irritates me is that i don't even give a damn about immigration as an issue, but i'm forced to waste my time advocating against uncontrolled immigration because governments have forgotten that their first, foremost, and absolute duty is to the welfare and well-being of their OWN people.

The result of this utter dereliction of duty is that I see the harmony and cohesion of society in Britain wrecked to the detriment of public concentration on issues that matter far more.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I would kick them out, the state should respect the rights and liberties of its citizens but not foreigners that have no place being there.

Immigration should only be allowed as long as it is beneficial to the native population. These Roma clearly do not contribute anything the the country.

And I don't see this as bigotry, just common sense. When the Roma learn that living in caravans through crime and begging isn't a very sensible thing to do in the 21st century, they should be allowed to immigrate just as anyone else. Race is nothing to do with it, I don't expect to be able to go and live by a rubbish dump in Germany and exist by mugging the local population.

I live with a settled Roman, she's very nice.

Nonetowits.

Now, these people are EU citizens, if France didn't want them in their country they shouldn't have pushed so hard for those people to be included in the EU. So, under EU law, they cannot be evicted. Having a special EU law about certain EU citizens is clearly racist.

Having said that, the Roma cannot be allowed to just occupy waste land and foul it.

So I think there is a problem, and it is France's problem.

[naut]

Now, these people are EU citizens, if France didn't want them in their country they shouldn't have pushed so hard for those people to be included in the EU. So, under EU law, they cannot be evicted. Having a special EU law about certain EU citizens is clearly racist.

Actually. In France any foreign national, EU or otherwise, must have a work visa to stay longer than 3 months. So they aren't doing anything they are not allowed to do.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Edit: As for the old man, I've followed the affair closely since I work at the local newspaper. Even though I think I would have acted the same way, he broke the law and thus deserves to face a trial. It's quite likely he wouldn't have received a harsh sentence, if it weren't for some of his declarations (such as "I've become racist, I hate this dirty race"). Having said that to the cops, it's likely the judge won't be as lenient with him.

It's illegal to defend yourself by shooting criminals who break into your home?

At least the uncontrolled immigration into the US is just people who want to work.

CR

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Actually. In France any foreign national, EU or otherwise, must have a work visa to stay longer than 3 months. So they aren't doing anything they are not allowed to do.

So France does not conform to EU directives about free movement of EU citizens the way Britain does?

Once again, stop the EU, we want to get off.

[Beskar]

I remember when Gypsies settled on the sports field near our University campus and ruined all the pitches.

Should we protect these minority cultures or get rid of them? I think we should get rid of them, unless they can be bothered to do it legally and rent out a field or whatever.

[Strike For The South]

Just making it eaiser for the muslims.

[Furunculus]

I remember when Gypsies settled on the sports field near our University campus and ruined all the pitches.

Should we protect these minority cultures or get rid of them? I think we should get rid of them, unless they can be bothered to do it legally and rent out a field or whatever.

ah, is that the siren call for yet more social engineering; "just one more push herr general and victory will be ours............"

oops, did i just godwin? :p

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I remember when Gypsies settled on the sports field near our University campus and ruined all the pitches.

Should we protect these minority cultures or get rid of them? I think we should get rid of them, unless they can be bothered to do it legally and rent out a field or whatever.

Cultural Genocide as a matter of course is not acceptable, but nor is positive discrimination.

Fly tipping was still a criminal offence last I checked, especially in those quantities.

[Tellos Athenaios]

So France does not conform to EU directives about free movement of EU citizens the way Britain does?

Once again, stop the EU, we want to get off.

When Romania and other countries joined some “temporary” restrictions on the EU directive with respect to this kind of migration were put into place as part of the package and anyway the directive contains a provision which applies for the first 5 years and basically says “except if you're a bum”. So no you can't decide that what you really want is a part of the French paradise, buy yourself a Loire cottage and live off French welfare state for the remainder of your life.

[Beskar]

ah, is that the siren call for yet more social engineering; "just one more push herr general and victory will be ours............"

oops, did i just godwin? :p

Cultural Genocide as a matter of course is not acceptable, but nor is positive discrimination.

Fly tipping was still a criminal offence last I checked, especially in those quantities.

Interesting replies. So deporting is people is ok, but not asking them to simply rent-out fields opposed to tresspassing?

[Fragony]

They don't want to

[Andres]

Meh.

These clowns were in the news in Belgium lately. They occupied the land of a farmer, without asking the owner if it's ok, let alone paying him something for his trouble. When they were chased away, they whined about Belgium not showing enough hospitality.

Whoever goes and sits on a land that isn't his own, without the consent of the onwer, shouldn't be surprised he must leave. Idiots. Was it that difficult to ask the farmer and the local authorities under which conditions it would be ok to use that piece of land and, in case of a "njet" to go look for another piece of land?

On what basis did they think they had the right to just put their caravans where they please without having to ask? And then they wonder why some people dislike them? Would they like me after I break into their caravan, take a shower, have dinner and then leave without even cleaning the mess I made, let alone paying rent?

[Meneldil]

So France does not conform to EU directives about free movement of EU citizens the way Britain does?

Once again, stop the EU, we want to get off.

Actually, this kind of restriction towards Romas immigrants is not specific to France. All EU countries can kick Roma who can't justify their stay after three monthes.

It's illegal to defend yourself by shooting criminals who break into your home?

At least the uncontrolled immigration into the US is just people who want to work.

CR

He wasn't defending himself: he shot the first girl in the back and the other one while she was running away. In France, the notion of "legitimate defense" actually means that you have to be defending someone, and not something. The retaliation also has to be proportionate. Which means you can't shot someone in the face because he insulted you.
Short story, long story, he broke the law. He could have expected some understanding from the court if he acted out of fear, but he didn't. In all likelyness, he got tired of being robbed in his own house, and got even more pissed off when he saw the intruders were Romas.

Meh.

These clowns were in the news in Belgium lately. They occupied the land of a farmer, without asking the owner if it's ok, let alone paying him something for his trouble. When they were chased away, they whined about Belgium not showing enough hospitality.

Heh. When the first bunch of Romas got shipped back to Romania, they got interviewed by the AFP after their landing. All of them were bitching and whining about French people being racists, "almost as racist as Romanians". When asked if they were planning to come back, a few of them got the nerve to answer positively, because "it's quite easy to receive money from the state in France".

I don't know in what kind of world these people leave, but it looks like the completely fail to grasp what's going on around them.

[rvg]

thinner....

[Brenus]

“I don't know in what kind of world these people leave, but it looks like the completely fail to grasp what's going on around them.” All is better than the Roma situation in Rumania, Hungary, Croatia and Slovakia… Ghettos, discrimination, harassment etc…

[Ser Clegane]

thinner....

[LittleGrizzly]

Haven't got much to add except a group of travellers moved into a field about 50 odd meters from my house a few years back, one or two rumors flew around, I even remember a younger friend claiming they had a gun over there (he is paticularly known for being a sensationalist) I walked through thier camp a few times (just on way somewhere or back not for the hell of it) never once even had a bad look let alone problems, I never remember hearing of any rise in crime or any other problems that could lead back to these people. They did leave a mess after they left (not much maybe an hours work for one person to get all the rubbish) and I doubt they paid for the field (it was in the grounds of a business that shut down so it wasn't used anyway) but they didn't really cause any problems...

Not to say they can't cause problems elsewhere just wanted to throw a non negative experience in there among the negative ones...

[drone]

No real input from me, but I just wanted to state that this thread has caused me to waste about 30 minutes of my life rewatching Snatch clips on YouTube.

That is all.

[gaelic cowboy]

Gotta love periwinkle blue terrible posh

[gaelic cowboy]

The one thing that gets me is the Traveller's as there called here always want some kind of right to a "Nomadic" culture. However last time I checked if your in receipt of social welfare you have to be available for work which is not possible in a nomadic existence as definded by themselves

[rory_20_uk]

So, pop to France for 3 months and get home for not just free but some cash too...

Did the French not realise that this is part of the wonderful EU they're hell bent on making?

[Furunculus]

Interesting replies. So deporting is people is ok, but not asking them to simply rent-out fields opposed to tresspassing?

it was the reference to this:

Should we protect these minority cultures or get rid of them? I think we should get rid of them,

which could be construed as advocating an interventionist cultural/behavioral policy, that some might term social engineering. :)

[Vladimir]

No real input from me, but I just wanted to state that this thread has caused me to waste about 30 minutes of my life rewatching Snatch clips on YouTube.

That is all.

[Brenus]

"Did the French not realise that this is part of the wonderful EU they're hell bent on making?" Well, the majority of the French voted against the European Constitution. And their opinion was ignored.



Posters are informed that Brenus' opinion on this matter is to be ignored