View Full Version : The Palestine Papers
Louis VI the Fat
01-24-2011, 04:58
Well it looks as if we are living in a new era of hitherto unimaginable (involuntary) transparancy indeed.
Leaked US helicopter attack videos, US diplomatic cables, Swiss bank accounts, the workings of a major American bank (upcoming by wikileaks). And now:
The Palestine Papers.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/palestine-papers
http://english.aljazeera.net/palestinepapers/
The peace process is over. The papers reveal that the PA has been willing to concede nearly everything. That Israel refuses anything. That America is not at all an honest broker.
What a farce.
It's over. Given the shocking nature, extent and detail of these ghastly revelations from behind the closed doors of the Middle East peace process, the seemingly endless and ugly game is now, finally, over. Not one of the villains on the Palestinian side can survive it. With any luck the sheer horror of this account of how the US and Britain covertly facilitated and even implemented Israeli military expansion – while creating an oligarchy to manage it – might overcome the entrenched interests and venality that have kept the peace process (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-peace-talks) going. A small group of men who have polluted the Palestinian public sphere with their private activities are now exposed.
For us Palestinians, these detailed accounts of the secretly negotiated surrender of every one of our core rights under international law (of return for millions of Palestinian refugees, on annexing Arab Jerusalem, on settlements) are not a surprise. It is something that we all knew – in spite of official protests to the contrary – because we feel their destructive effects every day. The same is true of the outrageous role of the US and Britain in creating a security bantustan, and the ruin of our civic and political space. We already knew, because we feel its fatal effects.
For the overwhelming majority of Palestinians, official Palestinian policy over these past decades has been the antithesis of a legitimate, or representative, or even coherent strategy to obtain our long-denied freedom. But this sober appreciation of our current state of affairs, accompanied by the mass protests and civil society campaigns by Palestinian citizens, has been insufficient, until now, to rid us of it.
The release into the public domain of these documents is such a landmark because it destroys the final traces of credibility of the peace process.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jan/23/middle-east-peace-process-over-palestinians
a completely inoffensive name
01-24-2011, 05:10
Dang. That's not good.
East-Jeruzalem is quite the concession, if this is true it's bad
What more does Israel want? There's nothing else that Israel could demand other than the utterly insane (Annexation of all Israeli settlements in the West Bank into Israel maybe?) and completely impractical in the long term. It's now as clear as day that with such a yawning disparity of power and strength between the two parties that bilateral talks are doomed to fail and for all intents and purposes are dead. If the United States wants peace in the Middle East, it must impose a unilateral state of peace upon Israel.
For us Palestinians, these detailed accounts of the secretly negotiated surrender of every one of our core rights under international law (of return for millions of Palestinian refugees)
However, I really don't see how this is a "core right". The Right of Return for Palestinians beyond any symbolic few families moving back is an impossible demand that Palestinians should have realised long ago to give up.
rory_20_uk
01-24-2011, 10:58
I very much doubt that America would be so blunt, as they can after all pretend to be in the middle. They have nothing to gain from being hostile to the Palestinians. I am also surprised that the Israelis would have flatly refused. Why not keep the farce going with counter offer? They're slowly taking what they want anyway, so a few words doesn't matter.
I don't think America can control Israel - or at least, they view the strategic loss of Israel too great to risk.
~:smoking:
Tellos Athenaios
01-24-2011, 13:13
Well, put this into perspective: this is not about what happened today or even last year. This is about what happened during the Bush admin, which was somewhat more unconditionally supportive of Israel than the current one is. We also knew that within the Likud party a preference for settling this conflict by means of the IDF rather than peace process persists.
What Israel seems to want to is to squeeze the occupied territories constantly and completely. To break up, sabotage and destroy political infrastructure, and to compromise and cripple civil society. Their end aim seems to be for the Palestinians to leave, and Isreal create a greater state. And so far, they seem to be on track.
gaelic cowboy
01-24-2011, 13:33
Such a laugh from the amount of coverage on Sky this morning you would think Andy Grays comments on women refs were the big story.
Furunculus
01-24-2011, 13:42
Their end aim seems to be for the Palestinians to leave, and Isreal create a greater state. And so far, they seem to be on track.
they're obviously failing massively if you look at the growth rate in the west bank, and particularly so the gaza strip:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territories#Population
rory_20_uk
01-24-2011, 13:45
More people, but year on year in less land.
~:smoking:
gaelic cowboy
01-24-2011, 14:26
More people, but year on year in less land.
~:smoking:
Which leads to violence which leads to Israel being able to point and say "Look tewworwists" which leads to even more marginalisation
More people, but year on year in less land.
~:smoking:
http://blogs.uscannenberg.org/claire_spera/West_Bank__Gaza_Map_2007_Settlements.1912940.gif
Effectively 4 micro-states that are cut off from each other, with settlements constantly eating away at them.
Which leads to violence which leads to Israel being able to point and say "Look tewworwists" which leads to even more marginalisation
Terrorists are real they exist, Israel shouldn't have to negotiate in the first place for these territories the arabs attacked and they lost. Perfectly normal, that. But they sure could be a bit more constructive in finding a longterm solution, looks like Fatah looks a little further ahead.
gaelic cowboy
01-24-2011, 16:01
Terrorists are real they exist, Israel shouldn't have to negotiate in the first place for these territories the arabs attacked and they lost. Perfectly normal, that. But they sure could be a bit more constructive in finding a longterm solution, looks like Fatah looks a little further ahead.
Terrorists are real and they do have to talk with them who else are they gonna talk with??????.
Neither side can win but Israel can lose.
HoreTore
01-24-2011, 16:17
Terrorists are real and they do have to talk with them who else are they gonna talk with??????.
Neither side can win but Israel can lose.
Indeed. You can't make peace by talking to your friends, only with your enemies. The only way to get a lasting peace is for the hard-liners in Israel to agree with the hard-liners in Palestine, otherwise those two groups will do their utmost to sabotage any solutions put forth by more moderate Israelis/Palestinians.
That means the Jewish settlers need to have a chat with Hamas. It sounds impossible, but hey, if you blank out where it says Jew or Arab in their propaganda, it's basically the same thing.
That means the Jewish settlers need to have a chat with Hamas. It sounds impossible, but hey, if you blank out where it says Jew or Arab in their propaganda, it's basically the same thing.
What is there to discuss with people who want you dead, kill or be killed. Hamas is plenty angry on Fatah over this, Hamas are religious extremists it's of no use
gaelic cowboy
01-24-2011, 16:29
What is there to discuss with people who want you dead, kill or be killed. Hamas is plenty angry on Fatah over this, Hamas are religious extremists it's of no use
Yes so because Hamas are beyond the pale we must stop them by what destroy the PA under Abbas or whoever.
This stuff makes no sense unless Israel believes it can do what it likes and the US will not interfere due to various concerns.
gaelic cowboy
01-24-2011, 16:30
gah double post
Yes so because Hamas are beyond the pale we must stop them by what destroy the PA under Abbas or whoever.
Where Hamas is in charge Fatah is kinda dead, they even killed them in the hospitals. Fatah is also scum but seem much more constructive. Talking with them sure why not, but let them destroy Hamas and the even more radical Islamic Jihad first. I am amazed of the Jeruzalem concession, Israel should have taken it.
edit, hello Moscow goodbye 31 Russians and counting, what's there to talk about really. RIP
gaelic cowboy
01-24-2011, 17:11
It is not unusual for people to turn down an offer for something they believe in for other baser concerns or just complete disbelief of the offer.
De Valera turned down complete reunification of Ireland by Churchill despite of and over any unionist concerns to join WW2.
Dev rejected it for several reasons
1: He didn't trust Churchill one bit, if it had being Chamberlain who made the offer he may have been tempted.
2: To go in with Britain could end badly for Ireland if they lost, at the time everyone assumed the war was basically over an Germany had won.(USA still not in the war)
3: Ireland was only out of a civil war (a misnomer if ever I saw one) any chucking in with Britain could topple the government.
4: Dev may have slightly feared the dilution of the Catholic ethos of the governance of our country by having loads of northeners in government. (although this may be unfair slightly)
The point is sometimes both side become so used to certain ways of thinking about each other that they can miss historic opportunities. Ireland did not trust Britain and the British could not understand the security concerns of a government who feared some of the people in it's own security apparatus.
HoreTore
01-24-2011, 17:12
What is there to discuss with people who want you dead, kill or be killed. Hamas is plenty angry on Fatah over this, Hamas are religious extremists it's of no use
Because they want the other side dead is precisely the reason why they are the ones we need to talk to.
Who has been sabotaging eveery peace effort so far? Hamas and the jewish settlers. Why are they doing that? Because they don't feel represented in the peace talks,, because they don't feel their needs are spoken for, and as such they don't have any sense of ownership over the peace deals, whch in turn means that they feel no obligation whatsoever to honour it.
To put it in other terms, let's imagine a war between Sweden and Finland, and in an attempt to end the war, Denmark makes a peace treaty with Norway. See where this goes wrong?
The Jewish settlers and Hamas are the principal aggressors in this conflict, therefore any peace deal must be between them. Other parties may be included in the deal, but those two cannot be left out.
Strike For The South
01-24-2011, 17:15
So you've been telling me the situation has been fubar from day 1.
I'm reeling in shock
No 2 state solution will ever come because to many people have to much invested in the 1 state solution (for thier side of course)
Furunculus
01-24-2011, 17:20
It is not unusual for people to turn down an offer for something they believe in for other baser concerns or just complete disbelief of the offer.
De Valera turned down complete reunification of Ireland by Churchill despite of and over any unionist concerns to join WW2.
Dev rejected it for several reasons
1: He didn't trust Churchill one bit, if it had being Chamberlain who made the offer he may have been tempted.
2: To go in with Britain could end badly for Ireland if they lost, at the time everyone assumed the war was basically over an Germany had won.(USA still not in the war)
3: Ireland was only out of a civil war (a misnomer if ever I saw one) any chucking in with Britain could topple the government.
4: Dev may have slightly feared the dilution of the Catholic ethos of the governance of our country by having loads of northeners in government. (although this may be unfair slightly)
The point is sometimes both side become so used to certain ways of thinking about each other that they can miss historic opportunities. Ireland did not trust Britain and the British could not understand the security concerns of a government who feared some of the people in it's own security apparatus.
i didn't know that, cheers.
re. politically motivated terrorist movements - grind them until they recognise they can't win, then offer them a non-violent solution on terms they are in no position to refuse.
worked with the IRA, as best as NI can be said to 'work'.....
What is there to discuss with people who want you dead, kill or be killed. Hamas is plenty angry on Fatah over this, Hamas are religious extremists it's of no use
There is a lot of rhetoric, but really if a few million people were that hell bent on killing Israelis, we'd have a lot more dead Israelis. This claim is kept up to marginalise the Palestinians and absolve Israel of it's guilt in grinding them into the dirt.
i didn't know that, cheers.
re. politically motivated terrorist movements - grind them until they recognise they can't win, then offer them a non-violent solution on terms they are in no position to refuse.
worked with the IRA, as best as NI can be said to 'work'.....
That's a staggeringly and preposterously one-sided view of the resolution of the troubles and the negotiations between the UK Government and the IRA.
Furunculus
01-24-2011, 17:36
oh i agree, there was lots of empathising and hand-wringing over hard fought compromise positions, and that it had nothing to do with the fact that by the end of the eighties the british secret services had the IRA compromised to the point where:
> their head of internal security was a stooge who set up good and loyal car-bombers in order to protect other British agents,
> their weapons caches were sabotaged and/or booby-trapped,
> their operations were known in advance often resulting in murderous ambushes,
> they had trouble saying anything to anybody without it being recorded in triplicate,
as said earlier, states can't win but they can lose, well we managed to persuade the IRA they could not win while demonstrating that we weren't going to lose either.
gaelic cowboy
01-24-2011, 17:39
re. politically motivated terrorist movements - grind them until they recognise they can't win, then offer them a non-violent solution on terms they are in no position to refuse.
worked with the IRA, as best as NI can be said to 'work'.....
Which is all the stranger when one considers the concession the PA made in this instance, Israel basically refused the chance to settle the problem at it's back.
To me if I was an Israeli the benefit of having sorted out the problem in one place gives more room and energy to concentrate on Hamas, which Fatah would approve of and prob even help with.
rory_20_uk
01-24-2011, 17:44
Israel wants it all, and is confident that over time it will eventually get a lot more than what was offered.
~:smoking:
There is a lot of rhetoric, but really if a few million people were that hell bent on killing Israelis, we'd have a lot more dead Israelis. This claim is kept up to marginalise the Palestinians and absolve Israel of it's guilt in grinding them into the dirt.
They simply don't have the chance, they've gotten their own wall to wail at, can't think of a better solution really. I feel sorry for the normal Palestinians but as long as they hate the jews more than they like eachother it's futile.
Furunculus
01-24-2011, 17:48
Which is all the stranger when one considers the concession the PA made in this instance, Israel basically refused the chance to settle the problem at it's back.
To me if I was an Israeli the benefit of having sorted out the problem in one place gives more room and energy to concentrate on Hamas, which Fatah would approve of and prob even help with.
agreed, their behaviour seems inexplicable.
gaelic cowboy
01-24-2011, 17:51
oh i agree, there was lots of empathising and hand-wringing over hard fought compromise positions, and that it had nothing to do with the fact that by the end of the eighties the british secret services had the IRA compromised to the point where:
> their head of internal security was a stooge who set up good and loyal car-bombers in order to protect other British agents,
> their weapons caches were sabotaged and booby-trapped,
> their operations were known in advance often resulting in ambushes murderous,
I think you overestimate the amount of infiltration of the IRA although I agree there was a a large amount of it going on. Weapons were never really the IRA's thing when you think on it, I mean it was all homemade bombs and mortars etc.
And while some operations were know in advance the reality is many slipped through cos of the nature of a terrorist organisation.
The way I see it the real progress started after Thatcher and Haughey left, there had been plenty talks under Thatcher's reign but she saw things far to black and white, not a good starting place when dealing with terrorists, plus she just did not like Haughey. The talks in the early 90's under Reynolds and Major had a lot to do with starting what we have today.
The saddest thing, out of a host of sad things to choose from, is how brutalized and militarized this has made both societies. Israel, as a democracy, had an opportunity to be an enlightened state. That's gone now. And the Palestinians had a chance to constructively guide their own future. Gone.
Because I need to get through my day and do constructive work, I don't let myself contemplate the Israeli-Palestinian axis of stupidity too often.
Furunculus
01-24-2011, 18:13
I think you overestimate the amount of infiltration of the IRA although I agree there was a a large amount of it going on. Weapons were never really the IRA's thing when you think on it, I mean it was all homemade bombs and mortars etc.
And while some operations were know in advance the reality is many slipped through cos of the nature of a terrorist organisation.
The way I see it the real progress started after Thatcher and Haughey left, there had been plenty talks under Thatcher's reign but she saw things far to black and white, not a good starting place when dealing with terrorists, plus she just did not like Haughey. The talks in the early 90's under Reynolds and Major had a lot to do with starting what we have today.
she was a useful product for her stage in the conflict; the uncompromising and ruthless premier who set the scene nicely for a good-cop/bad-cop routine.
its the joy of democracy, you pretend that all has changed whilst still advancing your aims. an obama moment if you will.
Israel, as a democracy, had an opportunity to be an enlightened state. That's gone now.
Oh. Nah it's an enlighted state besieged, of course radicalism is on both sides, and colonists are the tip of the spear of zionism, but so are the Palestians for radical islam and arab nationalism (same thing really but alas), but Israel has the means to settle things and they don't. I admire their restraint in using violence rather than condemning their psychotic episodes.
Fisherking
01-24-2011, 19:22
Indeed. You can't make peace by talking to your friends, only with your enemies. The only way to get a lasting peace is for the hard-liners in Israel to agree with the hard-liners in Palestine, otherwise those two groups will do their utmost to sabotage any solutions put forth by more moderate Israelis/Palestinians.
That is true.
I don’t see it happening but it is very true.
Terrorists are real they exist, Israel shouldn't have to negotiate in the first place for these territories the arabs attacked and they lost. Perfectly normal, that. But they sure could be a bit more constructive in finding a longterm solution, looks like Fatah looks a little further ahead.
Actualy, in the first place, the territories in question were stolen by the Zionists.
But in the here and now, there is no question the Israelis see great merit in keeping the Palestinians under the Isreali boot. A negotiated peace in the last thing Isreal wants because it would close the door on future expansion. Ongoing hostilities would "justify" future Isreali attacks and annexation of territories. The Israelis would be able to continue to play the "moral card" they play so well.
Keeping the Palestinians from appearing human is Israel's goal. As long as the Palestinians look like wounded animals, they don't have to be treated as human. They can be treated as... less than human. Not quite equal to the rest of us. The world has always had disposable people. Once it was the blacks, then it was the Jews; now it's the Palestinians.
Louis VI the Fat
01-25-2011, 04:41
The gift that keeps on giving...
Palestinian negotiators agreed only 10,000 Palestinians could return
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/24/palestinians-10000-refugees-return-israel
The PLO agreed Israel could be a 'Jewish state'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/24/palestinian-negotiators-jewish-state-papers
Condoleezza Rice suggested Palestinian refugees moved to Latin America. Personally I wonder why Condy Rice proposed Chile or Argentina instead of good old Madagaskar...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/24/condoleezza-rice-palestinian-refugees-south-america
questions questions http://debka.com/article/20582/
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Fragony/cryingwoman.jpg
Furunculus
01-25-2011, 10:29
interesting article from Stephen Pollard:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/8279712/The-leaks-are-just-one-more-diversion-on-the-path-to-Middle-East-peace.html
oh i agree, there was lots of empathising and hand-wringing over hard fought compromise positions, and that it had nothing to do with the fact that by the end of the eighties the british secret services had the IRA compromised to the point where:
> their head of internal security was a stooge who set up good and loyal car-bombers in order to protect other British agents,
> their weapons caches were sabotaged and/or booby-trapped,
> their operations were known in advance often resulting in murderous ambushes,
> they had trouble saying anything to anybody without it being recorded in triplicate,
as said earlier, states can't win but they can lose, well we managed to persuade the IRA they could not win while demonstrating that we weren't going to lose either.
So nothing to do with the Docklands bombing and the increased targetting of the City of London, combined with the insurers saying that they would no longer pay out on damage from terrorist attacks? The UK govt didn't have all the cards as you are suggesting. They IRA had occassional access to one testicle (the City) which they could squeeze and induce a fair amount of panic.
The saddest thing, out of a host of sad things to choose from, is how brutalized and militarized this has made both societies. Israel, as a democracy, had an opportunity to be an enlightened state. That's gone now. And the Palestinians had a chance to constructively guide their own future. Gone.
Because I need to get through my day and do constructive work, I don't let myself contemplate the Israeli-Palestinian axis of stupidity too often.
Israeli society is pretty grim from the sounds of it. One of the highest rates of drug use in the world, sex trafficking, massive organised crime network and routine violence amongst young people.
It isn't a democracy. Any more than the deep south of the US was a democracy in the 1930s.
Israeli society is pretty grim from the sounds of it. One of the highest rates of drug use in the world, sex trafficking, massive organised crime network and routine violence amongst young people.
How is that in any way related even when true
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict provides a nice case study as to what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object.
How is that in any way related even when true
A neverending war has very, very bad effects on a society. As a fan of the film Starship Troopers, I would think you would see the connection. War makes fascists of us all.
Vladimir
01-25-2011, 15:18
A neverending war has very, very bad effects on a society. As a fan of the film Starship Troopers, I would think you would see the connection. War makes fascists of us all.
So if peace is the dream of the wise but war is the way of man shouldn't we all be facists? :grin:
So if peace is the dream of the wise but war is the way of man shouldn't we all be facists? :grin:
I do realize that you're being silly, but to follow your reductio ad absurdum, I think there's a reason fascism had such resonance with the populations that came under its sway. There's a simplistic, visceral appeal to a Final Solution. And yes, I think the generational war between the Palestinians and the Israelis has fatally poisoned both societies. I cannot begin to imagine how either will recover, or become decent ever again.
A neverending war has very, very bad effects on a society. As a fan of the film Starship Troopers, I would think you would see the connection. War makes fascists of us all.
+1 for Starship Troopers. Probably the finest satire ever made.
Vladimir
01-25-2011, 15:42
I do realize that you're being silly, but to follow your reductio ad absurdum, I think there's a reason fascism had such resonance with the populations that came under its sway. There's a simplistic, visceral appeal to a Final Solution. And yes, I think the generational war between the Palestinians and the Israelis has fatally poisoned both societies. I cannot begin to imagine how either will recover, or become decent ever again.
What you, and in fairness, most people, don't realize is that it goes beyond what you mentioned: Two persecuted peoples were placed side-by-side in a region claimed by three major religions. This goes far beyond the 60 whatever years that Israel's been around. Whenever I hear fools talk about Zionists or terrorists I see it as people lining up behind their respective camps. The question is who would you rather have living next door to you not who do you feel the most sympathy for.
When was the last time Christianity claimed the region for a religious purpose?
I blame the Oslo peace accords. Should have just kept the area under Israeli control.
Israel and Palestine were separated, then Jordan annexed Palestine. They went to war with Israel, then Israel invaded and annexed the lands from Jordan. It should have just remained that way.
Greyblades
01-25-2011, 16:53
When was the last time Christianity claimed the region for a religious purpose?
Claimed? Probably around the 1700's, Popes didn't realy hold much sway after the renaissance, but I dont think anyone's actually acted on the claims since the 13th century.
Arab Christians claim the region as their own, although they become progressively fewer with each passing year.
Bethlehem has the highest proportion of Palestinian Christians and the Christians make up 30% of Bethlehem's population. Then it is 3% overall in the other Palestinian territories.
The Christians and Jewish populations of Israel get on very very well. This is also reflected in the national status of being effectively 'partners' with the USA being held in Israel and the pricing of US dollars for goods.
One thing I did notice was the visual difference between the Israeli and Muslim areas. In short, the Jewish people are heavily influenced from the west, so you can imagine well kept gardens, Western architectural styles for buildings and so on. The Muslim areas are effectively a dump because they lack the western style emphasis on their creations. The exception to this rule are rich and western influenced Muslims in the area, which are unfortunately not that many.
The Palestinian areas are very much as you can guess from the above, are a dump. The cities and towns are covered in Street rats (Children begging and stealing), and there is a general disorder and breakdown of society, especially compared the Israeli areas which are very ordered (more so than Britain).
gaelic cowboy
01-25-2011, 18:05
So nothing to do with the Docklands bombing and the increased targetting of the City of London, combined with the insurers saying that they would no longer pay out on damage from terrorist attacks? The UK govt didn't have all the cards as you are suggesting. They IRA had occassional access to one testicle (the City) which they could squeeze and induce a fair amount of panic.
I agree with this
The spectaculars in London hurried along a process London had being denying for years, plus the improved relations between Dublin and London after Maggie left helped an awful lot.
Also Adams and co were years trying to get there membership to back a more political slant, they saw the benefit from the hunger strikes when they elected people to London and Dublin on the back of it.
The Palestinian areas are very much as you can guess from the above, are a dump. The cities and towns are covered in Street rats (Children begging and stealing), and there is a general disorder and breakdown of society, especially compared the Israeli areas which are very ordered (more so than Britain).
When you and yours are given the same consideration people give to rats, and when you and yours are killed off like rats, and when great powers conspire to have you and yours eternally looked upon as rats, it is conceivable that you and yours may eventually behave like rats.
The downfall of the Palestinian people is all going according to the plans of external forces.
Seamus Fermanagh
01-25-2011, 20:01
...The downfall of the Palestinian people is all going according to the plans of external forces.
You have a far greater belief in the efficiency of government then I ever will.
There was no coherent plan behind the formation of Israel, and any plans since have been haphazard and reactive -- with unintended consequences largely ignored. It has taken on a life of its own -- a poisonous existence as our Lemur notes -- that is in no way truly controlled by the participants much less those watching horrified from the sidelines.
Vladimir
01-25-2011, 20:08
You have a far greater belief in the efficiency of government then I ever will.
There was no coherent plan behind the formation of Israel, and any plans since have been haphazard and reactive -- with unintended consequences largely ignored. It has taken on a life of its own -- a poisonous existence as our Lemur notes -- that is in no way truly controlled by the participants much less those watching horrified from the sidelines.
It's called a conspiracy theory. I'd even place people like Noam Chumpsky (reference to another thread in this category) into this category. The mind likes to fill in our gaps of knowledge with unrealistic scenarios. Idealists have the same problem. Incompetence and self-interest are more responsible than any organized plan. They are also our two greatest allies in combating terrorism.
You have a far greater belief in the efficiency of government then I ever will.
Governments are highly efficient when it counts. They have the guns, the money, the law, the information gathering assets, and retain a monopoly on the use of force. They also have, when required - usually to maintain their own interest - a highly concentrated sense of purpose.
There was no coherent plan behind the formation of Israel, . . .
You think it was done on a whim?
When was the last time Christianity claimed the region for a religious purpose?
South Vietnam, right before the war.
South Korea. Right now.
Sounds like Christianity has something with the south.
It's called a conspiracy theory. I'd even place people like Noam Chumpsky (reference to another thread in this category) into this category. The mind likes to fill in our gaps of knowledge with unrealistic scenarios. Idealists have the same problem. Incompetence and self-interest are more responsible than any organized plan. They are also our two greatest allies in combating terrorism.
There is nothing unrealistic or conspiritorial required to explain the decades of inhuman brutality the Palestinians have suffered at the hands of the Israelis.
It's simple brutality and inhumanity. No black helicopter theories required. It's just plain murder.
aimlesswanderer
01-25-2011, 22:46
I can't but think that when this whole mess is studied in future centuries, those studying it will just come away thinking that it was a complete botch up, all around.
The Israelis have huge military, economic and (fading) diplomatic advantages, due to a large part in the US's unstinting, largely unequivocal support. The Israelis have been taking advantage of that by basically absconding with Palestinian land from the occupied territories. Not surprisingly, the Palestinians have taken a very dim view of this. These settlements, along with their access roads, have cut, as shown by the map posted earlier, the West Bank into many small pieces. Added to this is what seems like a concerted campaign to move out Palestinians from East Jerusalem. Maybe we only hear about the Palestinians being evicted - "legally", but how come it just happens that the vast majority who get evicted are Palestinians, who have been living there for many decades? Seems like a logical parallel effort to settlement building.
Then there are the heavy restrictions on what they let in to Palestinian areas (as discussed in the Gaza blockade running thread), which have led to economic strangulation, with resulting serious poverty and unemployment - with corresponding despair for the future. The numerous "checkpoints" don't help either. This leads to more extreme, previously unpalatable ideas seeming like excellent ideas. Thanks to Israeli heavy handedness and above mentioned land grabs, Iran was able to build up Hamas and Hezbollah into large, powerful organisations with considerable public support, which are a general pain to the entire world.
And now that the Israelis rejected what Fatah/PLO may not even have been able to sell to its own people (abandoning just about ever major demand), it remains to be seen if the relatively moderate Fatah will be able to remain in power. They might well get replaced by a more radical group, or at least have to take a much harder line to remain in power.
And will that be good for either Israel or the world? Israel will get to say that the Palestinians are a bunch of crazies after the likely increase in violence, and meanwhile they'll grab more land, evict more people, and just make the whole situation worse. Hamas will only get stronger, and might even take over the West Bank, and won't that be just fun for all?
I don't even want to think about what might happen if, for example, Mubarak gets booted out of Egypt, and a group like the Muslim Brotherhood takes over...
All in all, a complete and utter mess.
Iran was able to build up Hamas
Make no mistakes, the Iranian regime doesn't really like Hamas. They're nothing more than the enemy of their enemy, but on philosophical and political terms they'd rather be enemies than friends. Hezbollah is another thing, seeing how they're Shi'ite.
Seamus Fermanagh
01-26-2011, 02:54
Governments are highly efficient when it counts. They have the guns, the money, the law, the information gathering assets, and retain a monopoly on the use of force. They also have, when required - usually to maintain their own interest - a highly concentrated sense of purpose.
Self interest, especially to stay in power, is certainly something that can clarify government. I don't think that appertained, particularly at the outset.
You think it was done on a whim?
A whim, no. Too quickly and influenced by guilt and a sense of high-handedness, yes. The original UN effort sort of pre-supposed that the then-locals would be okay with the idea and/or that their opinion was pretty secondary. It also pre-supposed that, having been granted a homeland, the new Israelis would be perfectly content with what they'd been handed. I'd call that incoherent planning.
Of course, the whole re-drawing of the AH empire at Versailles had a lot of that thinking going on too. Israel's formation was another in a long series of just too-cavalier efforts.
Self interest, especially to stay in power, is certainly something that can clarify government. I don't think that appertained, particularly at the outset.
I think it was relevant at the outset. The government, say the UK and the US governments for example, obviously saw it as being in their own best interest that Palestine be carved up or else they would not have assisted in it.
A whim, no. Too quickly and influenced by guilt and a sense of high-handedness, yes. The original UN effort sort of pre-supposed that the then-locals would be okay with the idea and/or that their opinion was pretty secondary. It also pre-supposed that, having been granted a homeland, the new Israelis would be perfectly content with what they'd been handed. I'd call that incoherent planning.
I don't think anyone anywhere was under the illusion that you allude to. Recent history in that area made it so clear as to be beyond any shadow of a doubt that there would be armed conflict. George Marshall told Truman that carving up Palestrine to make room for Isreal would ruin the US repuation in that region for generations. He was right.
Of course, the whole re-drawing of the AH empire at Versailles had a lot of that thinking going on too. Israel's formation was another in a long series of just too-cavalier efforts.
Yes, but unlike other "just too cavalier efforts", this one took an extra step into the land of the stupid by not only redrawing borders, but by importing an entire culture and people from another part of the world and plopping it right smack dab in the middle of a place that already had an indigeous population and that 100% guaranteed war would follow. It was not only criminal and stupid, but criminally stupid.
Seamus Fermanagh
01-26-2011, 04:53
I don't think anyone anywhere was under the illusion that you allude to. Recent history in that area made it so clear as to be beyond any shadow of a doubt that there would be armed conflict. George Marshall told Truman that carving up Palestrine to make room for Isreal would ruin the US repuation in that region for generations. He was right.
Turns out to have been, yes. But then and now, most politicos have a much shorter decision horizon -- long term problems can be dumped on a successor. Please note, that is a comment on what I believe influenced decision-making at the time. Heeding Marshall's advice would have been smarter.
Yes, but unlike other "just too cavalier efforts", this one took an extra step into the land of the stupid by not only redrawing borders, but by importing an entire culture and people from another part of the world and plopping it right smack dab in the middle of a place that already had an indigeous population and that 100% guaranteed war would follow. It was not only criminal and stupid, but criminally stupid.
Turns out to have been a world champion dumb-bunny move, eh? We could parse nuances about criminality and international law, but I will set that aside. The decision at the time was ill-thought, ran counter to the "best route forward" assessments of many of the then-experts available, and was probably made to appease a sense of guilt as much as any rational reaction. Oh, and it basically handed the Zionist terrorists a win for their freedom fighter/terrorist efforts. Stupidity on parade.
aimlesswanderer
01-28-2011, 08:00
Make no mistakes, the Iranian regime doesn't really like Hamas. They're nothing more than the enemy of their enemy, but on philosophical and political terms they'd rather be enemies than friends. Hezbollah is another thing, seeing how they're Shi'ite.
They may not like them, but they still built them up to the stage where they are a real rival to the PLO.
Hezbollah are now possibly the most powerful political and military force in Lebanon. Lovely.
They may not like them, but they still built them up to the stage where they are a real rival to the PLO.
People often assume that Iran supports Hamas and the Iranian regime, too, have stated that they support Hamas, but it's a fickle alliance at best, and I don't think that it will last very long.
They may not like them, but they still built them up to the stage where they are a real rival to the PLO.
Hezbollah are now possibly the most powerful political and military force in Lebanon. Lovely.
That's what you get for thinking that political maturity will come from external powers forcing their choices on a population.
aimlesswanderer
01-29-2011, 11:27
People often assume that Iran supports Hamas and the Iranian regime, too, have stated that they support Hamas, but it's a fickle alliance at best, and I don't think that it will last very long.
I think from Iran's POV, Hamas is great for causing Israel (and the Evil Imperialistic US, Decadent West, and rest of the world) problems galore. They are a useful proxy at the moment, but I have no doubt that if the strategic or political dynamic changes, they will be unceremoniously jettisoned.
kthxbye, both the Palestinian and the Israeli authorities deny it's real, was a bit much no. People who have always condemned violence on both sides but never do naturally jumped on it like a pack of starved hyena's. Pallywood #quazillion. Ah well, at least the wardrums stopped and antise- Israel-critics are united in absolute silence again. At least until the next episode
kthxbye, both the Palestinian and the Israeli authorities deny it's real, was a bit much no. People who have always condemned violence on both sides but never do naturally jumped on it like a pack of starved hyena's. Pallywood #quazillion. Ah well, at least the wardrums stopped and antise- Israel-critics are united in absolute silence again. At least until the next episode
Huh? Some officials deny it's real and you immediately believe them? :laugh4:
Huh? Some officials deny it's real and you immediately believe them? :laugh4:
It's pretty obvious that someone is discrediting Fatah. You'll see. Yeah I believe them the Palestinians would never use the Hebrew name of Jeruzalem.
Crazed Rabbit
01-29-2011, 17:50
A question for Beirut:
I recall from previous threads about Israel that you blame the Israelis and their dehumanizing treatment of Palestinians for the Palestinian's terrorism directed at Israel. I recall a different discussion about the Hells Angels in Canada and how you would want very violent things to happen to the Hells Angels as punishment for their crimes.
I asked if you could not see how the Israelis felt the same way about the Palestinians that you do about the Hells Angels.
You replied that you and Canada have never done to the Hells Angels what the Israelis have done to the Palestinians - occupation, war, etc.
That made me think; how would you react if the Native Americans in Canada had responded to their poor treatment in the same way Palestinians had; with terrorism?
If you view Palestinians as justified, then certainly the Indians of North America would be justified in using terrorism against the Canadian (or US for that matter) governments.
CR
A question for Beirut:
I recall from previous threads about Israel that you blame the Israelis and their dehumanizing treatment of Palestinians for the Palestinian's terrorism directed at Israel. I recall a different discussion about the Hells Angels in Canada and how you would want very violent things to happen to the Hells Angels as punishment for their crimes.
I asked if you could not see how the Israelis felt the same way about the Palestinians that you do about the Hells Angels.
The Hells Angels are a criminal organization. The Palestinians are a people.
You replied that you and Canada have never done to the Hells Angels what the Israelis have done to the Palestinians - occupation, war, etc.
That made me think; how would you react if the Native Americans in Canada had responded to their poor treatment in the same way Palestinians had; with terrorism?
I would support the native people taking any actions required to protect themselves as long as those actions did not involve targeting innocent civilians. And besides, who says the Palestinian response is always terrorism? Sometimes it is, yes. But just as often, and more, and with far worse results, the Israelis indulge in acts of terrorism. Those Israeli acts of terrorism kill far, far more Palestinians than Palestinans terrorist have killed Israelis.
For our part, Canada has been responsible for the brutal and inhuman mistreatement of native peoples, and slowly, too slowly, we are coming to terms with it. Part of that redemption process, if you want to call it that, is that Canada gives jurisdictional rights to its native people that I think few countries in the world do.
If you view Palestinians as justified, then certainly the Indians of North America would be justified in using terrorism against the Canadian (or US for that matter) governments.
You are assuming and implying by the construction of your statement that I support terrorism. I do not. I support the right of the Palestinians to defend themselves. It is not the same thing.
The right to defend themselves, who are the ones shooting rockets, who are brainwashing kids, who are using human shields for max boohoohoo. Palestinians are like the annoying kid who keeps pinching you, can ask him to stop but he won't, and when you finally hit him in the face he runs of crying to the teacher. And you get detention. Pinching doesn't hurt as much as a hit in the face, it's true.
As Golda Meir brilliantly put it, there will be peace if they love their children more than they hate the jews.
LittleGrizzly
01-30-2011, 08:21
The right to defend themselves, who are the ones shooting rockets, who are brainwashing kids, who are using human shields for max boohoohoo.
Aside from that last one... both sides
Palestinians are like the annoying kid who keeps pinching you, can ask him to stop but he won't, and when you finally hit him in the face he runs of crying to the teacher. And you get detention. Pinching doesn't hurt as much as a hit in the face, it's true.
In fairness you took his lunch money (teacher said you could) he can't get it back.
As I see it the Israeli's decided long ago, Land > Israeli's. Until that changes or there's some kind of dramatic power shift nothing will change
I would do him a favour stealing his lunch money. They already are the second fattest people in the universe and surroundings, any more food could jam their arteries, no wonder with the billions of foreign aid they get. Meh to Palestinians if I go on holiday the drinks food and water-paradises aren't free. They should just shut the hell up.
Crazed Rabbit
01-30-2011, 08:44
I would support the native people taking any actions required to protect themselves as long as those actions did not involve targeting innocent civilians. And besides, who says the Palestinian response is always terrorism? Sometimes it is, yes. But just as often, and more, and with far worse results, the Israelis indulge in acts of terrorism. Those Israeli acts of terrorism kill far, far more Palestinians than Palestinans terrorist have killed Israelis.
You are assuming and implying by the construction of your statement that I support terrorism. I do not. I support the right of the Palestinians to defend themselves. It is not the same thing.
And what percentage of Palestinian 'defensive actions' aren't terrorism - that is, what do they do besides sending suicide bombers after civilians and firing rockets into cities? It seems like the only time they shoot at the IDF is when they provoke Israel so much with rocket attacks that the IDF roll in the tanks.
CR
And what percentage of Palestinian 'defensive actions' aren't terrorism - that is, what do they do besides sending suicide bombers after civilians and firing rockets into cities? It seems like the only time they shoot at the IDF is when they provoke Israel so much with rocket attacks that the IDF roll in the tanks.
CR
Ya, screw them.
The right to defend themselves, who are the ones shooting rockets, who are brainwashing kids, who are using human shields for max boohoohoo.
Who are the ones stealing land, imprisoning thousands without trial, using torture, killing men. woman, and children with every weapon imaginable, denying the very basics of human life, and keeping a million people in a brutal open air concentration camp decade after decade after decade?
As Golda Meir brilliantly put it, there will be peace if they love their children more than they hate the jews.
The Israelis keep killing Palestinian children so sometimes all the Palestinians parents have left is hate.
And what percentage of Palestinian 'defensive actions' aren't terrorism - that is, what do they do besides sending suicide bombers after civilians and firing rockets into cities? It seems like the only time they shoot at the IDF is when they provoke Israel so much with rocket attacks that the IDF roll in the tanks.
CR
I don't support anyone killing civilians. I do, however, support the Palestinians doing as much damage to the IDF as possible, no matter where or when that action is taken. And I support the Palestinans enagaging in every level of civil disobediance that does not harm civilians.
The Israelis keep killing Palestinian children so sometimes all the Palestinians parents have left is hate.
That is why Golda Meir is right, these kids are raised as soldiers, look at the schoolbooks, schoolplays, they are being skull****ed from day one.
The Israelis keep killing Palestinian children so sometimes all the Palestinians parents have left is hate.
Nothing to do with the Palestinian kidnapping Israeli's, holding them to random, and firing rockets into Israel. In Israel the separating wall between Israel and Palestine is to keep Jewish Israeli's out of Palestine, because as soon as they cross, Palestinians would kidnap them, and since Israel doesn't want to supply 10 man armed body guards to protect their citizens, they are not allowed in Palestinian territories.
The Muslims in Israel are treated very well, so are the Drews, Jews, Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants and others. There is a lot of religious harmony and respect between people.
Only reason Osol accords and why peace-settlement is popular with the Israeli citizens is because they want peace and security. The Israeli's are not the bad guys, contrary to your belief. They are the guys who have to watch their backs for daggers and when people don't realise that, they just attack Israel on it's "aggressive" behaviour when they are very limited in what they can do to try to protect themselves.
I have been to Israel and Palestine, I have spoken to the people there, I was also constantly targeted by Israeli security either because I am on some Israeli watch-list, or they think i was the second coming of Goliath. But other that nuisance, I got to hear both sides of the story from the people there. From that, i have concluded if the whole area just went under direct Israeli administration with Palestinians becoming Israeli's and dropping their Palestinian identity card, then it would simply resolve this issue and everyone would live happily ever after.
Crazed Rabbit
01-30-2011, 18:16
I don't support anyone killing civilians. I do, however, support the Palestinians doing as much damage to the IDF as possible, no matter where or when that action is taken. And I support the Palestinans enagaging in every level of civil disobediance that does not harm civilians.
You didn't answer my question:
What percentage of Palestinian 'defensive actions' aren't terrorism?
The Israelis keep killing Palestinian children so sometimes all the Palestinians parents have left is hate.
Maybe if the one's who still had children didn't support the rocket firings and suicide bombings Israel wouldn't be provoked into retaliating once again.
CR
That is why Golda Meir is right, these kids are raised as soldiers, look at the schoolbooks, schoolplays, they are being skullf*cked from day one.
That is happening on both sides.
You didn't answer my question:
What percentage of Palestinian 'defensive actions' aren't terrorism?
What percentage? If I was to say 10% or 34% or 51%, how would you counter that number?
Maybe if the one's who still had children didn't support the rocket firings and suicide bombings Israel wouldn't be provoked into retaliating once again.
CR
Maybe if the ones who stole the land and imprisoned, brutalized, tortured, dehumanized, and killed the people who lived there didn't do those things, the other people wouldn't support those who fire rockets.
Nothing to do with the Palestinian kidnapping Israeli's, holding them to random, and firing rockets into Israel. In Israel the separating wall between Israel and Palestine is to keep Jewish Israeli's out of Palestine, because as soon as they cross, Palestinians would kidnap them, and since Israel doesn't want to supply 10 man armed body guards to protect their citizens, they are not allowed in Palestinian territories.
The Zionists stole Palestinian land, and they continue to steal more land, and they keep well over a million people locked up under conditions that even a supporter of South African apartheid would agree were brutal. If there is antagosim, that is why.
Only reason Osol accords and why peace-settlement is popular with the Israeli citizens is because they want peace and security. The Israeli's are not the bad guys, contrary to your belief. They are the guys who have to watch their backs for daggers and when people don't realise that, they just attack Israel on it's "aggressive" behaviour when they are very limited in what they can do to try to protect themselves.
The Israelis are the bad guys. They are the ones who continue to steal land. They are the ones who kill far more innocent people than those they acuse of being murderes. They are the ones who run concentration camps and keep whole generations locked up under brutal and inhuman conditions. They are the ones who will kill you for attemtpting to bring food to the starving or medicine to the sick or building supplies to the homeless.
I have been to Israel and Palestine, I have spoken to the people there, I was also constantly targeted by Israeli security either because I am on some Israeli watch-list, or they think i was the second coming of Goliath. But other that nuisance, I got to hear both sides of the story from the people there. From that, i have concluded if the whole area just went under direct Israeli administration with Palestinians becoming Israeli's and dropping their Palestinian identity card, then it would simply resolve this issue and everyone would live happily ever after.
So the invaded should assume the identity of the invader to facilitate the invasion process?
That's a bit too Vichy for my blood. (And the Palestinians as well, thank God.)
rory_20_uk
01-30-2011, 18:47
Be careful saying "concentration camps". Anything that might be linked to the Holocaust is verboten - including drawing parallels.
~:smoking:
The Israelis are the bad guys. They are the ones who continue to steal land. They are the ones who kill far more innocent people than those they acuse of being murderes. They are the ones who run concentration camps and keep whole generations locked up under brutal and inhuman conditions. They are the ones who will kill you for attemtpting to bring food to the starving or medicine to the sick or building supplies to the homeless.
Actually, Israel legally own the Palestinian land. Israel and Palestine were separate until Jordan annex'd Palestine, and in the Israeli-Jordan war, Israel legally took those Palestinian territories from Jordan. So if you want some one to blame, blame Jordan and the Palestinians who handed over their sovereignty. Even then, before that, the area was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, then later in the British Mandate of Palestine. There hasn't been a Palestinian 'nation' there. Also, the "Israeli's" / "Jews" were always there as well oppressed under various rulers and controllers of the territory, but just expanded greatly in number after the creation of Israel. Also there is the fact the Jewish populace were the natives of that area anyway...
Also, trust me, Palestinians are not starving, they were trying to sell me bottles of Coca-cola and I visited a Jewelry shop which also has an office in New York, where everything was expensive heading into the thousands of dollars range. From high value diamonds, gold, deep sea salts, etc. Far from the perceived universal poverty you are sowing, they even have a Mc Donalds.
The only serious area is the Gaza strip where Muslim funded terrorists operate (ie: Hamas). There are no "concentration camps", and "kill you for attempting to bring food to the starving or medicine to the sick or building supplies to the homeless" is utter nonsense. I have been there and seen it for myself. I am not impressed by some of the ways Israel has handled things, but that shouldn't be a barrier to solving the issues in the area.
So the invaded should assume the identity of the invader to facilitate the invasion process?
I don't care for national borders, so fighting for some national identity is pointless and this talk is just rhetoric, I don't see you saying about Post-war Germany and Japan not facilitating to the Western allies after the second world war. I mean, look at Germany and Japan now, they are both great places. So yeah, Israel would be a great place too without the nutjobs.
Crazed Rabbit
01-30-2011, 19:26
Well I'd use this for percentages:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2010
In 2010, there was a dramatic drop in rocket attacks, down from 569 in 2009 to 150 in 2010. In 2008, in comparison, 2,048 rockets were fired into Israel from Gaza.
It seems likely that Palestinian 'defensive actions' that aren't acts of terrorism are less than 1% when the IDF isn't invading in retaliation for rocket attacks.
You say you don't support targeting civilians, but that is almost all the Palestinian groups do. If you really didn't support attacking civilians, you can't support whose primary actions are targeting civilians. Nor can you support the Palestinian people, who voted those groups into power.
You'll excuse all the terrorist acts by saying Israel has given the Palestinians a lot of reasons to hate them. And Israel has given Palestinians a lot of legitimate reasons to hate them. That doesn't excuse attacking civilians.
However the Palestinians can stop the rocket attacks and other terrorist acts and begin the transition to a more peaceful era.
But that would require them to love their children more than they hate Israel.
CR
I don't care for national borders, so fighting for some national identity is pointless and this talk is just rhetoric, . . .
Agreed. So let's tell the Israelis to dump their national identity and borders and we'll go back to calling the place Palestine and everything will be fine.
That was easy. :sunny:
Well I'd use this for percentages:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2010
It seems likely that Palestinian 'defensive actions' that aren't acts of terrorism are less than 1% when the IDF isn't invading in retaliation for rocket attacks.
So you are saying the Palestinians have a right to kill IDF soldiers in Gaza because it is self-defense?
You say you don't support targeting civilians, but that is almost all the Palestinian groups do. If you really didn't support attacking civilians, you can't support whose primary actions are targeting civilians. Nor can you support the Palestinian people, who voted those groups into power.
I don't support the targeting the of civilians. I think the Palestinians should target the Israeli military and government, not Israeli civilians.
And yes, I do support the Palestinian people.
You'll excuse all the terrorist acts by saying Israel has given the Palestinians a lot of reasons to hate them. And Israel has given Palestinians a lot of legitimate reasons to hate them. That doesn't excuse attacking civilians.
You continue to imply that I support terrorism. I think in the interest of fair play you either quote me as saying such a thing or refrain from saying it.
[B][U]However the Palestinians can stop the rocket attacks and other terrorist acts and begin the transition to a more peaceful era.
However the Israelis can stop the brutal subjugation and other terrorist acts and begin the transition to a more peaceful era
But that would require them to love their children more than they hate Israel.
That's a cute tagline but it doesn't mean anything other than a Palestinian should hold hands with his child while in his other hand he holds a flower all the while IDF jets are straffing his house.
It might make for a cute poem in the Tao Tse Ching, but in real life, it's meaningless.
Agreed. So let's tell the Israelis to dump their national identity and borders and we'll go back to calling the place Palestine and everything will be fine.
That was easy. :sunny:
Legal framework. Since Israel already has one and it works, it is easier just to merge 'Palestinian' territories back in than vice-versus.
Legal framework. Since Israel already has one and it works, it is easier just to merge 'Palestinian' territories back in than vice-versus.
But since it was the creation of Israel that started all the trouble, and all we want is an end to the fighting, I think it best to go back to everyone being Palestinian. Wouldn't be but a small clerical effort to get the paperwork done.
And since you said you don't really care about the details of national identity, we'll let the Israeli identity go. I'm sure we can agree on this. :yes:
Furunculus
01-30-2011, 23:42
Agreed. So let's tell the Israelis to dump their national identity and borders and we'll go back to calling the place Palestine and everything will be fine.
That was easy. :sunny:
ain't going to happen.
i think CR was trying to point out that indiscriminately firing rockets into israeli town is in fact terrorism.
I think CR was trying to point out that indiscriminately firing rockets into israeli town is in fact terrorism.
Agreed.
They should be aimed.
Crazed Rabbit
01-31-2011, 01:31
Argh. For the second time today the board ate a reply of mine by logging out in between me starting a response and posting it.
So he's the condensed version:
So you are saying the Palestinians have a right to kill IDF soldiers in Gaza because it is self-defense?
No, only that fighting a military force is not terrorism.
I don't support the targeting the of civilians. I think the Palestinians should target the Israeli military and government, not Israeli civilians.
And yes, I do support the Palestinian people.
That's like saying you support a football team but not the playing of football. Almost everything the Palestinian 'leadership' does is terrorism.
You continue to imply that I support terrorism. I think in the interest of fair play you either quote me as saying such a thing or refrain from saying it.
No, only that you will always give excuses for it, as exemplified in your next quote:
However the Israelis can stop the brutal subjugation and other terrorist acts and begin the transition to a more peaceful era
You also say both sides could end it, but seem to think Israel is evil while Palestinians deserve your support. The Palestinians are the ones who actively target civilians, though.
And what would happen if Israel pulled out of the West Bank and Gaza and opened the borders? Do you think Hamas would suddenly become peaceful and forget their goal of destroying Israel? Do you think the Palestinians would not send suicide bombers to attack Israeli civilians, as they did before?
Nor do I think a Palestinian state covering the entire area of Israel and Palestine would be good for the homosexuals who might be killed for their sexuality under the Palestinian regime.
That's a cute tagline but it doesn't mean anything other than a Palestinian should hold hands with his child while in his other hand he holds a flower all the while IDF jets are straffing his house.
It might make for a cute poem in the Tao Tse Ching, but in real life, it's meaningless.
And what would happen if Palestinians held flowers while Israelis attacked? That was what the civil rights movement in the US did, and it worked for them. In fact, anything would work better for the Palestinians because even with all their attempted terrorism they fail miserably at achieving their goals.
Since basically all the Palestinian 'resistance' is terrorist acts, why not support a cessation of their violent resistance? Israel would be forced to at least slowly loosen their grip if the Palestinians were peaceful. And progress towards peace might actually be made.
The Palestinians have a choice; to be ruled by their hatred or to make a better life for their children.
CR
Agreed.
They should be aimed.
Ow! If that's supposed to be not supporting terrorism you are doing it all wrong imho
edit: may have misunderstood your post, sorry if so
Argh. For the second time today the board ate a reply of mine by logging out in between me starting a response and posting it.
Been there - done that. Very frustrating. It's happened so often on several boards that I copy the text of my post before posting if it's longer than a single sentence.
No, only that fighting a military force is not terrorism.
Fair enough.
That's like saying you support a football team but not the playing of football. Almost everything the Palestinian 'leadership' does is terrorism.
I don't think I have spoken of the Palestinian leadership. I speak of the people.
Also, the actions that you describe as terrorism, I believe, are temporary in that as circumstances change, so will the nature of those actions. Nelson Mandela was a dangerous terrorist and spent 26 years in prison. Look at him now, Ghandi reborn.
No, only that you will always give excuses for it, as exemplified in your next quote:
I will say it again: I never once said I supported terrorism or the targeting of civilians.
So unless you are looking to have this conversation degrade into an entire series of false accusations, perhaps you might want to reconsider your choice of words.
You also say both sides could end it, but seem to think Israel is evil while Palestinians deserve your support. The Palestinians are the ones who actively target civilians, though.
As Israel has killed far, far more civilans than the Palestinans ever have, I would be inclined to say, then, that the IDF is either directly targeting civilians or are simply so incompetant in the use of their weapons that they are hitting everything and everyone except who they are shooting at. Take your pick.
And what would happen if Israel pulled out of the West Bank and Gaza and opened the borders? Do you think Hamas would suddenly become peaceful and forget their goal of destroying Israel? Do you think the Palestinians would not send suicide bombers to attack Israeli civilians, as they did before?
Isreal taking the jackboot off the neck of the Palestinians and allowing them actual freedom is a complete game changer. If the Palestinians were free, really free, and continued to attack the Israelis, I would be the first person to say Isreal should drop a great big bomb on Gaza.
Nor do I think a Palestinian state covering the entire area of Israel and Palestine would be good for the homosexuals who might be killed for their sexuality under the Palestinian regime.
Yeah... put on hot pants and a pink t-shirt and go for a walk through an orthodox neighbourhood in Israel. See how many rocks bounce on your head on that one.
And what would happen if Palestinians held flowers while Israelis attacked? That was what the civil rights movement in the US did, and it worked for them. In fact, anything would work better for the Palestinians because even with all their attempted terrorism they fail miserably at achieving their goals.
I guess the palestinians have more George Washington than Ghandi in their blood.
Besides, even if the Palestinians didn't throw a single rock for a whole year, they would still have the Isreali jackboot on their necks. The Isrealis don't subjugate the Palestinians because they have to, they subjugate them because they want to.
Since basically all the Palestinian 'resistance' is terrorist acts, why not support a cessation of their violent resistance? Israel would be forced to at least slowly loosen their grip if the Palestinians were peaceful. And progress towards peace might actually be made.
I support an increase in their violent resistence. I just want that violence targeted with more discretion. I don't think people who enslave others, who murder others, and who torture others should be met with flowers.
As I said, the Isrealis don't subjugate the Palestinians because they have to, they subjugate them because they want to.
The Palestinians have a choice; to be ruled by their hatred or to make a better life for their children.
Yeah, that might sound great on Oprah, but in real life where the Israelis will murder youf if you try to bring food and medicine to suffering people, those flowery words come off a bit... weak.
They will always have a jackboot in their neck as they are just a tool, Hamas is getting softer et voila! presto the IJ
Crazed Rabbit
01-31-2011, 03:10
I will say it again: I never once said I supported terrorism or the targeting of civilians.
So unless you are looking to have this conversation degrade into an entire series of false accusations, perhaps you might want to reconsider your choice of words.
I'm not saying you support terrorism, or that offering excuses is the same thing as supporting it.
As Israel has killed far, far more civilans than the Palestinans ever have, I would be inclined to say, then, that the IDF is either directly targeting civilians or are simply so incompetant in the use of their weapons that they are hitting everything and everyone except who they are shooting at. Take your pick.
Probably a mix of more powerful weapons, incompetence, and the fact that the Palestinian terrorists they target live among civilians, not on army bases.
Yeah... put on hot pants and a pink t-shirt and go for a walk through an orthodox neighbourhood in Israel. See how many rocks bounce on your head on that one.
Indeed. But thrown rocks are different from regime supported killings, and Orthodox neighborhoods make up only part of Israel.
Besides, even if the Palestinians didn't throw a single rock for a whole year, they would still have the Isreali jackboot on their necks. The Isrealis don't subjugate the Palestinians because they have to, they subjugate them because they want to.
They want to? They want a constant state of strife? I find that hard to believe.
I support an increase in their violent resistence. I just want that violence targeted with more discretion. I don't think people who enslave others, who murder others, and who torture others should be met with flowers.
And I don't think the bigots and racists who denied Black people their God-given rights should have been met with non-violence.
But that approach worked. It showed the righteousness of the civil-rights movement, and the barbarity of the bigots.
The violent resistance by Palestinians accomplishes nothing. Violence targeted at the IDF will accomplish nothing, because the Palestinian leadership is incapable of attacking the IDF in any significant way.
Yeah, that might sound great on Oprah, but in real life where the Israelis will murder youf if you try to bring food and medicine to suffering people, those flowery words come off a bit... weak.
Surely you aren't referring to that 'aid ship flotilla' which turned out to be a bunch of activists looking to provoke Israel and waiting to ambush the IDF forces once they boarded.
I'm not saying non-violent resistance is easy. But the Palestinians haven't tried it. But Israel could not continue if the world saw them really murdering people just trying to deliver food and medicine.
The words aren't weak. To follow through on them would, in fact, require great strength of character.
CR
I'm not saying you support terrorism, or that offering excuses is the same thing as supporting it.
Well, if that is the road we are going to travel then I could say you excuse the murder of Palestinian children.
Indeed. But thrown rocks are different from regime supported killings, and Orthodox neighborhoods make up only part of Israel.
And yet Israel conducts regime supported killings and they have no-go neighbourhoods for homosexuals. Hmmmm... that looks pretty bad.
They want to? They want a constant state of strife? I find that hard to believe.
It works to their advantage. They get to play their decades-long victim routine, and they hide behind that as an excuse to (continue to) steal land and resources from the Palestinians. Treat the Palestinians like animals in the hopes they behave like animals because no one cares what you do to animals.
And I don't think the bigots and racists who denied Black people their God-given rights should have been met with non-violence.
But that approach worked. It showed the righteousness of the civil-rights movement, and the barbarity of the bigots.
In that case the US bigots were in the minority. The Palestinians have to face Israel and the US and Canada and all the other puppet countries that toe the Israeli line no matter what Israel does. That's a big enemy for the Palestinians to go toe to toe with.
The violent resistance by Palestinians accomplishes nothing. Violence targeted at the IDF will accomplish nothing, because the Palestinian leadership is incapable of attacking the IDF in any significant way.
Better than just sitting back and letting them murder people and keep the rest imprisoned for life.
Surely you aren't referring to that 'aid ship flotilla' which turned out to be a bunch of activists looking to provoke Israel and waiting to ambush the IDF forces once they boarded.
Bringing food and medicine to suffering people. Such a provocation!
I wonder if I'll be shot for donating canned soup to the local food bank.
I'm not saying non-violent resistance is easy. But the Palestinians haven't tried it. But Israel could not continue if the world saw them really murdering people just trying to deliver food and medicine.
Isreal has been murdering innocent people for decades. But since the US and Canadian government's noses are so far up Israel's keester, Isreal gets away with murder because our idiot governments back Israel up no matter who they kill.
Well, if that is the road we are going to travel then I could say you excuse the murder of Palestinian children.
No.
And yet Israel conducts regime supported killings and they have no-go neighbourhoods for homosexuals. Hmmmm... that looks pretty bad.
No. But I heard 'stone a homosexual' is a Palestinian favourite. Palestine is far more backwards than Israel is by a mile so your comments are pretty redundant.
It works to their advantage. They get to play their decades-long victim routine, and they hide behind that as an excuse to (continue to) steal land and resources from the Palestinians. Treat the Palestinians like animals in the hopes they behave like animals because no one cares what you do to animals.
No.
In that case the US bigots were in the minority. The Palestinians have to face Israel and the US and Canada and all the other puppet countries that toe the Israeli line no matter what Israel does. That's a big enemy for the Palestinians to go toe to toe with.
No. Israel has to face the other countries in the region who want to wipe Israel "off the face of the world", it is a good thing that more enlightened nations are able to support Israel.
Better than just sitting back and letting them murder people and keep the rest imprisoned for life.
No. Because I thought you was meant to be commenting on Israel and not Hamas here?
Bringing food and medicine to suffering people. Such a provocation!
I wonder if I'll be shot for donating canned soup to the local food bank.
No. The whole 'aid' was a publicity stunt and they were carrying weapons and illegal contraband. Even a BBC (who is pro-Palestinian if anything) during a Panorama investigation revealed this. The whole thing was a plot to discredit Israel.
Isreal has been murdering innocent people for decades. But since the US and Canadian government's noses are so far up Israel's keester, Isreal gets away with murder because our idiot governments back Israel up no matter who they kill.
No. Because you are simply just talking nonsense.
You are clearly not knowing what you are talking about and there is no 'debate' when you just regurgitate nonsense. On the other-hand, there are posters here with "more of a clue" because they actually been to Palestine and Israel first-hand and actually knows what is going on more indepth. I have visited Palestine and Israel, I do know what the conditions there are like. Things were actually far better off for the Palestinians before they turned to terrorism. Palestinian used to be the bulk of the labour force in Israel, now Israeli's have to look towards the Far-east like the Philippines for immigrant labour. The Israel has valid justification for the territory and even attempted to please the Palestinian and Arabian nations. however, they are unwilling to ensure security and that is something Israel wants, due to the muslim-backed terrorism in the area.
No.
Yes. And I don't think I was talking to you anyway, though I always enjoy your posts. :)
No. But I heard 'stone a homosexual' is a Palestinian favourite. Palestine is far more backwards than Israel is by a mile so your comments are pretty redundant.
Yes. And there are similar Jewish religious quotes like the one you used. And there are parts of Israeli society where women's rights are stone age to say the least. So "backwards" is everywhere.
No.
Yes.
No. Israel has to face the other countries in the region who want to wipe Israel "off the face of the world", it is a good thing that more enlightened nations are able to support Israel.
Yes. Isreal has massive support and uses every opportunity, through coercion, to make sure that support is loud and generous. The myth of Israeli fragility is a myth used, to good effect, as camouflage.
No. Because I thought you was meant to be commenting on Israel and not Hamas here?
Yes. I was commenting on the inhuman brutality of the Israelis towards the Palestinians.
No. The whole 'aid' was a publicity stunt and they were carrying weapons and illegal contraband. Even a BBC (who is pro-Palestinian if anything) during a Panorama investigation revealed this. The whole thing was a plot to discredit Israel.
Yes. People were ambushed and murdered by Israeli forces for the crime of bringing food and medicine to suffering people.It's as simple as that. Might as well blame Martin Luther King for being beaten while marching for civil rights.
No. Because you are simply just talking nonsense.
Yes. I am speaking the truth. You may not want to hear it, but I cannot help that.
You are clearly not knowing what you are talking about and there is no 'debate' when you just regurgitate nonsense. On the other-hand, there are posters here with "more of a clue" because they actually been to Palestine and Israel first-hand and actually knows what is going on more indepth. I have visited Palestine and Israel, I do know what the conditions there are like. Things were actually far better off for the Palestinians before they turned to terrorism. Palestinian used to be the bulk of the labour force in Israel, now Israeli's have to look towards the Far-east like the Philippines for immigrant labour. The Israel has valid justification for the territory and even attempted to please the Palestinian and Arabian nations. however, they are unwilling to ensure security and that is something Israel wants, due to the muslim-backed terrorism in the area.
And all this time I thought it was you regurgitating nonsense. ;)
The situation is as clear as the summer sun; a nuclear superpower aided and abetted by the world's superpower, is keeping an entire people locked up and beaten down under the most brutal and inhumane conditions. Israel can pump out all the PR and excuses it wants, but in the end it is guilty of running concentration camps and violating the human rights of millions with illegal detentions, torture, theft, and murder. Candy coat it all you want, Isreal is guilty as sin.
Yes. People were ambushed and murdered by Israeli forces for the crime of bringing food and medicine to suffering people.It's as simple as that. Might as well blame Martin Luther King for being beaten while marching for civil rights.
Hahah, no they didn't. Israeli forces were ambushed and were shot at by "Peaceful Protestors", which forced the Israeli to completely change tactics and end up fighting back.
Yes. I am speaking the truth. You may not want to hear it, but I cannot help that.
No, you are not saying the truth at all and it is nothing to do with me hearing it. Infact, I used to have a position similar to yours until I visited Palestine myself and actually discovered the truths about the situation, ask the other users here about that. I am not "deaf" to anything, I realized I was wrong and changed opinion.
The situation is as clear as the summer sun; a nuclear superpower aided and abetted by the world's superpower, is keeping an entire people locked up and beaten down under the most brutal and inhumane conditions.
Except they are not locked up and beaten down under the most brutal and inhumane conditions. I have been there, spoken and walked with Palestinians there, while you are sat in your armchair in Canada being spoonfed biased information.
Israel can pump out all the PR and excuses it wants, but in the end it is guilty of running concentration camps and violating the human rights of millions with illegal detentions, torture, theft, and murder. Candy coat it all you want, Isreal is guilty as sin.
Israel is no knight in shining armour and I have never said that, but it is definitely the lesser of the two evils.
Hahah, no they didn't. Israeli forces were ambushed and were shot at by "Peaceful Protestors", which forced the Israeli to completely change tactics and end up fighting back.
Change tactics? You mean the heavily armed Israeli soldiers who conducted a surprise helicopter attack on that boat went there with love in their hearts and then, seeing that some people won't put up with their Gestapo tactics, had to - wait for it - "change tactics", and the soldiers actually had to use the weapons they brought with them?
How terrible for those poor soldiers. :no:
No, you are not saying the truth at all and it is nothing to do with me hearing it. Infact, I used to have a position similar to yours until I visited Palestine myself and actually discovered the truths about the situation, ask the other users here about that. I am not "deaf" to anything, I realized I was wrong and changed opinion.
And you will realize once more that you are wrong and change your opinion again, that's the beauty of it. :idea2:
Except they are not locked up and beaten down under the most brutal and inhumane conditions. I have been there, spoken and walked with Palestinians there, while you are sat in your armchair in Canada being spoonfed biased information.
So the decades long incarceration of the Palestinians is a myth? The thousands of innocent Palestinians killed by Israel never existed? The countless hundreds of bombed out building in Gaza aren't really there? So we're free to bring food and medicine to the Palestinians without being murdered by Israeli special forces?
Next time your in Gaza, tell the Palestinians that. They'll be greatly relieved to hear your version of the truth.
Israel is no knight in shining armour and I have never said that, but it is definitely the lesser of the two evils.
The Zionists started the evil and the Israelis perpetuate it. The Palestinians are the victims of Isreal, Isreal's puppets in other countries, and of the Arab states. The Palestinians are treated worse than animals and under Israeli orders, they are told to be seen as animals as well. I ain't buying it.
The second fattest people of the planet get free food, free electricity, free medicine, and wish I had that much choice when looking for a 5 star holiday resort nearby. And still they can't control their need to kill. Here we would say thanks for the food, the medicine, the electricity, the pools, the huge manors
edit: unlike Beskar I haven't been there, but I do know people from there, including ex Hamas, who do you think they are really scared of.
You pleasantly surprise me Beskar Israel is no knight in shining armour indeed, but it really does not deserve the hate.
No, the Palestinian territories (including Gaza) is not the second fattest country (http://www.expatify.com/news/the-worlds-top-10-fattest-countries.html) in the world.
No, the Palestinian territories (including Gaza) is not the second fattest country (http://www.expatify.com/news/the-worlds-top-10-fattest-countries.html) in the world.
Nor are they a country, doesn't change that they are pretty well fed. Too well without aid they would starve. I would be infinitely be more cruel towards them then the Israeli's would ever dream of, I would simply let them to their own devices. They can't, they will die, and I couldn't care one bit. Byebye
Furunculus
02-02-2011, 11:11
And you will realize once more that you are wrong and change your opinion again, that's the beauty of it. :idea2:
ah........ the very definition of inquisitive human endeavor. intellectual inflexibility combined with ideological purity is not a happy combination.
ah........ the very definition of inquisitive human endeavor. intellectual inflexibility combined with ideological purity is not a happy combination.
If you have any love for humanity how about this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0C2QvqIlo I'm a humanist at heart, that's why I want to kill a few
edit, she doesn't even know her own religion, that lamb was poisened to make sure teh mo was really a prophet, and it came back to life to warn him gawd. I know that. and I'm a europian
The second fattest people of the planet get free food, free electricity, free medicine, and wish I had that much choice when looking for a 5 star holiday resort nearby. And still they can't control their need to kill. Here we would say thanks for the food, the medicine, the electricity, the pools, the huge manors
And what planet might that be, dear sir?
If you have any love for humanity how about this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0C2QvqIlo I'm a humanist at heart, that's why I want to kill a few
Here are a few more humans for you to love: The Gestapo of the Sea.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RbtKW1hhQw
Here are a few more humans for you to love: The Gestapo of the Sea.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RbtKW1hhQw
Nice try, what about the Fotillas, you aren't onto me in any argument as I'd shoot them and watch them drown. Whithout feeling all that bad at all. Want to kill, fine if you do, your choice not mine but not rolling over, that is Israels take on things
Nice try, what about the Fotillas, you aren't onto me in any argument as I'd shoot them and watch them drown. Whithout feeling all that bad at all. Want to kill, fine if you do, your choice not mine but not rolling over, that is Israels take on things
What?
That video shows the Israeli navy bullying and threatening some fishermen, they don't even attempt to board and search the ship.
It doesn't matter where those fishermen are from, if the Navy has a problem with them being there they can board the ship, show some kind of document that says you can't fish here and then send them away.
There is absolutely no excuse for this kind of thing they pull off in the video except that they're a bunch of trigger happy hateful :daisy: .
Israel's take on things may be not to roll over but the Palestinians have the same take on things since it has been shown again and again that Israel builds settlements in Palestinian areas, what's not to understand about the fact that that is illegal and wrong? I certainly don't want Israel to vanish but if a government starts to sanction and encourage bullying, violence and breaking laws then something is horribly wrong in that country. The same goes for every country of course, it's not like the Hamas government is any better with all the firing of rockets into cities.
Nice try, what about the Fotillas, you aren't onto me in any argument as I'd shoot them and watch them drown. Whithout feeling all that bad at all. Want to kill, fine if you do, your choice not mine but not rolling over, that is Israels take on things
So you are saying your inclination towards cold blooded murder is what puts you on the side of virtue?
That's very Al-Queda of you.
So you are saying your inclination towards cold blooded murder is what puts you on the side of virtue?
That's very Al-Queda of you.
So? Screw them, haters killed np
So? Screw them, haters killed np
Sounds to me like you are as full of hate as any of the "haters" you say should be killed. And not only do you sound like you are full of hate, but you have expressed a willingness to kill civilians for no other reason than you don't like them.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that the exact same ideological stance taken by those who dress up in C4 and go for rides on buses full of woman and children?
Don't we have a name for those people?
Sounds to me like you are as full of hate as any of the "haters" you say should be killed. And not only do you sound like you are full of hate, but you have expressed a willingness to kill civilians for no other reason than you don't like them.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that the exact same ideological stance taken by those who dress up in C4 and go for rides on buses full of woman and children?
Don't we have a name for those people?
Ha, you sympathise with haters and accuse me of hate, a lack of of sympathy yes, preciously little
edit: the transports and gas, who's idea was it anyway? Call me nazi all you want, at least I would be a relaltiively good person when compared. Hitler and the Mufti both agreed they were put on earth for a reason, there is also a reason he's still so popular in camelland. Do I hate, yes, until the molecular structure of their bones
Louis VI the Fat
02-02-2011, 19:56
To return to a small debate a few pages ago.
Palestine is not recognised a country, so it doesn't show up in many country rankings. The West Bank and Gaza however sometimes do:
https://img200.imageshack.us/img200/985/14obesity.jpg
Source is the Economist, which based its ranking on the World Health Organisation.
More obese than America, almost as obese as filthy rich Saudi Arabia.
See Frags, this is why you need to show sources, give links. :kiss:
Louis VI the Fat
02-02-2011, 20:00
The new shopping mall which opened in Gaza last year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbKxiQbJ9U0
The 'Crazy Water Park' which opened in Gaza last year.
It served the privileged in Gaza, of whch there are quite a few. Masked men burned down the park because men and women were allowed to mingle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU5NmRkaIt4&feature=related
Ha they can't see them anyway it's of no use posting links
Ha, you sympathise with haters and accuse me of hate, a lack of of sympathy yes, preciously little
I just find it interesting that you would say you decry terrorism and stand for freedom and civilization; and yet while doing so you brag that you would shoot civilians and watch them drown.
I think you could understand that some people might find that a bit... you know.
Do I hate, yes, until the molecular structure of their bones
What a lovely tenet to base an ideology and country upon. Will there be slavery or genocide first? Shall the blacks get in line right off or should the crippled go before them?
Shall the blacks get in line right off or should the crippled go before them?
muhaha haven't decided yet, the crippled blacks I guess. Your buddies have though, they made up their minds decades ago. They aren't even lying about it please, typical, the gutmensch believes everything Hamas says, except when they say they want to kill jews because they are jews. Screw all that, but fine you can call me a nazi (or Suzy) SIEG LOL
muhaha haven't decided yet, the crippled blacks I guess. Your buddies have though, they made up their minds decades ago. They aren't even lying about it please, typical, the gutmensch believes everything Hamas says, except when they say they want to kill jews because they are jews. Screw all that, but fine you can call me a nazi (or Suzy) SIEG LOL
It's not what I call you that matters. What matters is who you are. Given your stated delight in killing people...
You and your friends seem to have become exactly like the people who persecuted you decades ago and who had to be driven off by others.
Next time we won't bother.
It's not what I call you that matters. What matters is who you are. Given your stated delight in killing people...
You and your friends seem to have become exactly like the people who persecuted you decades ago and who had to be driven off by others.
Next time we won't bother.
Beirut why don't you go out to take a dump in the woods and leave your best arguments there, a Reductio ad Hitlerum is soooooo pathetic. It doesn't even bother me it bores me. But I'll play, you said the rockets should be aimed, aimed at who? You know they aren't very accurate, might hit the wrong people even when really aiming them, you know that
I haven't forgotten what you said in a thread I made about the nature of a grudge, it's what keeps you warm at night good for you.
Beirut why don't you go out to take a dump in the woods
Well, it is in the nature of my work.
a Reductio ad Hitlerum is soooooo pathetic.
Things always look worse in Latin. But you'll be alright.
But I'll play, you said the rockets should be aimed, aimed at who?
The soldiers who murder Palestinians under the cover of official orders.
. . . a grudge, it's what keeps you warm at night good for you.
What keeps me warm at night is my wife. Though a grudge might talk less.
ICantSpellDawg
02-04-2011, 02:50
The peace process is over. The papers reveal that the PA has been willing to concede nearly everything. That Israel refuses anything. That America is not at all an honest broker.
What a farce.
Israel is an evil state. It is a malignancy in the region. The majority of good Israelis are done a great disservice by their evil government. There will never be peace until modern Israel ceases to exist and is replaced by a non-apartheid government. Palestinians should learn from the non-violent resistance in Egypt.
The soldiers who murder Palestinians under the cover of official orders.
Left out a bit, these rockets aren't accurate they can hit anything, so you can't really care about what gets hit. Hamas doesn't. They do care when they finally get one back. These actually are accurate so they use human shields for maximal outrage, and it works. People who will always solemny declare they condemn all violence but never do are once again beyond comforting
@Tuff Israeli arabs have the highest standard of living in the middle-east. They aren't as well-fed as the Palestinians though but then again 99% of the world isn't
Crazed Rabbit
02-04-2011, 04:17
Well, if that is the road we are going to travel then I could say you excuse the murder of Palestinian children.
Perhaps. I excuse such things by saying that is unintended collateral damage (often because the terrorists hide out near civilians). You excuse terrorist attacks aimed at children by saying Palestinians have a lot of reasons to hate Israel.
And yet Israel conducts regime supported killings and they have no-go neighbourhoods for homosexuals. Hmmmm... that looks pretty bad.
And are those Israeli state killings targeted at people for the crime of being homosexual? If not, why are you equating Israel targeting and killing terrorists with Palestinians targeting and killing homosexuals?
It works to their advantage. They get to play their decades-long victim routine, and they hide behind that as an excuse to (continue to) steal land and resources from the Palestinians. Treat the Palestinians like animals in the hopes they behave like animals because no one cares what you do to animals.
I doubt that, especially that they desire a state of endless conflict in order to steal the 'resources' of the Palestinians. Do you think they desire and endless state of war with rockets fired at their homes, forever? What human would want that?
The west bank and gaza are among the fattest people in the world. Hardly starving refugees.
In that case the US bigots were in the minority. The Palestinians have to face Israel and the US and Canada and all the other puppet countries that toe the Israeli line no matter what Israel does. That's a big enemy for the Palestinians to go toe to toe with.
Were they in the minority in the south? The civil rights movement changed the minds of people outside the area of discrimination, and it was those outsiders who ended segregation.
And no, the USA and Canada would not back Israel no matter what.
Better than just sitting back and letting them murder people and keep the rest imprisoned for life.
NO.
"Sitting back" as you call it could END THE VIOLENCE. You think it unfair that the Palestinians would have to suffer while not striking back, but surely the peace would be worth it. Now, which is better, an endless futile struggle from the Palestinians or an end to the strife and their bad situation? You speak at length about what the Israelis do to the Palestinians, but do you care more about ending the Palestinians' suffering or seeing Israel suffer?
CR
Left out a bit, these rockets aren't accurate they can hit anything, so you can't really care about what gets hit.
Uh, let me get this straight: the guy (you) who brags that he wants to kill civilians is parsing my statements to imply that maybe, perhaps, there's a chance that I don't care if civilians get hurt even though I have repeatedly said civilians should not be targeted?
I applaud you for your active imagination if not your reading skills.
Uh, let me get this straight: the guy (you) who brags that he wants to kill civilians is parsing my statements to imply that maybe, perhaps, there's a chance that I don't care if civilians get hurt even though I have repeatedly said civilians should not be targeted?
I applaud you for your active imagination if not your reading skills.
I would have absolutely sunk that Flottilla yes, watching them drown was a bit much but I'm a poet at heart.
Again, you said these rockets should be aimed, but these rockets aren't accurate but you still say they shouldn't hit civilians. Que? Is that a new approach to making sense. Almost as silly as condemning violence from both sides without ever actually doing so.
Duh, guys, it's the same old arguments and they're still as bad as they were back then.
Israel may cause collateral damage, that would be fine if they didn't do it to defend illegal settlements that they built on the razed former homes of Palestinians.
The israeli settlers who "train" their children to throw stones at palestinian children while the army watches hardly prove that Israel is only in it because it was attacked, that's all a load of rubbish.
The Palestinians on the other hand fire homemade rockets into israeli cities, that's a terrorist attack, it's nowhere near a targeted attack on military, they also send their children to blow themselves up in israeli buses, trams and cafes, hardly places where you expect military, they're using prolonged terrorist scare tactics which obviously don't soften up the Israelis but make them harder and harder, they also "train" their kids to throw stones at israelis.
To say that either side just wants to live in peace is also rubbish, there are enough people on both sides who don't want peace that there is none and while I believe that both sides may have people who do want peace, they are obviously not getting through on too many levels, either because they're too quiet or because they're drowned out by those who prefer war.
This whole "Israel is better!" - "No, Palestine is better!" etc. seems pretty pathetic considering that they're both a thousand times worse than for example Norway. It's like choosing sides between Sauron and Palpatine.
Or...wait for it...
Stalin and Hitler!
Of course Israel is better, the Arabs aren't all dead are they. It absolutely puzzles me why people despise the jews so much. What did they ever do to deserve it? A few settlements? Much worse things have happened, like being absolutely massacred in Jordania by these sick Phalanx lot absolute scum, christians by the way, murderers and rapists, got a great book with photographs from Beirut (the city, not the member that's calling me a nazi) surely they must have had a reason as well
Just musing, Europeans dehumanise the jews because that's easier than admitting what has happened. Israel is a nice excuse, somwhere, somehow. We all know it wasn't just the Nazi's.
Greyblades
02-04-2011, 12:11
This whole "Israel is better!" - "No, Palestine is better!" etc. seems pretty pathetic considering that they're both a thousand times worse than for example Norway. It's like choosing sides between Sauron and Palpatine.
Or...wait for it...
Stalin and Hitler!
For the record I would rather be under palpatine than sauron, palpatine doesnt want to kill or even enslave everyone, just rule over them.
As for hitler vs stalin; I'm a white straight male, hitler had people killed for being a certain race, sexuality or dissability, stalin just killed anyone in the way, I'd at least be safer from roaming government death squads in nazi Germany than stalin Russia.
Furunculus
02-04-2011, 12:29
For the record I would rather be under palpatine than sauron, palpatine doesnt want to kill or even enslave everyone, just rule over them.
As for hitler vs stalin; I'm a white straight male, hitler had people killed for being a certain race, sexuality or dissability, stalin just killed anyone in the way, I'd at least be safer from roaming government death squads in nazi Germany than stalin Russia.
are you sure? do you occupy a position of any political or social influence and have you ever displayed any ideological impurity? The Gulag archipelago might be waiting for you..........
Greyblades
02-04-2011, 12:37
Not realy I dont think college students were randomly rounded up and sent to concentration camps under the Nazi's unless they acted up and as far as apperances go I'm pretty average, as long as I dont do anything to tick off the local SS I should be fine.
Duh, guys, it's the same old arguments and they're still as bad as they were back then.
Israel may cause collateral damage, that would be fine if they didn't do it to defend illegal settlements that they built on the razed former homes of Palestinians.
The israeli settlers who "train" their children to throw stones at palestinian children while the army watches hardly prove that Israel is only in it because it was attacked, that's all a load of rubbish.
The Palestinians on the other hand fire homemade rockets into israeli cities, that's a terrorist attack, it's nowhere near a targeted attack on military, they also send their children to blow themselves up in israeli buses, trams and cafes, hardly places where you expect military, they're using prolonged terrorist scare tactics which obviously don't soften up the Israelis but make them harder and harder, they also "train" their kids to throw stones at israelis.
To say that either side just wants to live in peace is also rubbish, there are enough people on both sides who don't want peace that there is none and while I believe that both sides may have people who do want peace, they are obviously not getting through on too many levels, either because they're too quiet or because they're drowned out by those who prefer war.
This whole "Israel is better!" - "No, Palestine is better!" etc. seems pretty pathetic considering that they're both a thousand times worse than for example Norway. It's like choosing sides between Sauron and Palpatine.
Or...wait for it...
Stalin and Hitler!
The point, and it really is the point, is that until the Palestinians are free there can never be any progress. And the conditions of that freedom cannot be dictated by the jailers who have kept them locked up for generations.
It is illogical and immoral to dispossess and imprison a people, cut them off from the world, treat them like animals, and then say "Maybe we'll give you a day pass now and then if you submit more appropriately".
The incarceration of the Palestinians is unprecedented in the modern world. Only South African apartheid approaches it in brutality and inhumanity. And it was not for the black South Africans "to behave" that was a prerequisite to their being freed; being freed had to come first. It was their incarceration that was the root of the evils that plagued both sides.
Not realy I dont think college students were randomly rounded up and sent to concentration camps under the Nazi's unless they acted up and as far as apperances go I'm pretty average, as long as I dont do anything to tick off the local SS I should be fine.
Fine, not my idea of being fine. Wouldn't you give a crap. I'm not fine with it it disgusts me. you just don't mindlessly kill other human beings, unless they think it's a good thing of course, screw these as they are flawed
Greyblades
02-04-2011, 13:31
...Fine as in surviving. Guilt tripper. Think about it; stalin starved and killed many of his own people indiscriminately, "ones a tradgedy a million's a statisitc" remember, whereas nazi's killed you for being jewish/gay/black/not white but left you alone otherwise. I was saying that I would prefer germany than russia if that was the only choice. If given the chance in that situation I would have run for the USA and never looked back but with only those two as choices I'll take my chances with the guys who aren't as eager to kill people in the demographic I am in.
Rhyfelwyr
02-04-2011, 13:36
While it doesn't excuse the actions of the Israeli government, we in the West have a big misconception about the biggest issue in the conflict - the 'we were there first' argument.
Israeli's are not all aggressive colonists stealing land from the native Palestinians. The Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza strip are almost entirely descended from immigrants from the Arab nations that came after the early Jewish settlers transformed the land and created work. And then decided they wanted a country of their own.
Even in Louix Theroux's documentary last night, it showed how the Palestinians treated the Jewish settlers in East Jerusalem. Even though these settlers are deemed illegal and seen as taking historic Palestian land, that part of the city had in fact been taken in an Arab pogrom a few decades ago.
Fundamentally, the Jews have just as much claim to that land as the Arabs, probably more.
Fine, not my idea of being fine. I'm not fine with it it disgusts me. you just don't mindlessly kill other human beings. . .
But you said:
. . . I'd shoot them and watch them drown. Whithout feeling all that bad at all.
I would be infinitely be more cruel towards them then the Israeli's would ever dream of. . .
Perhaps a week or two of quiet reflection in a peaceful enviroment would allow you to gather your thoughts and express them with more... precision, and intellectual honesty.
. . . got a great book with photographs from Beirut (the city, not the member that's calling me a nazi)
Well, you tell me; werent the people who invaded and occupied your country decades ago exactly the kind of people who would have looked at a boat full of civilians and said: "I'd shoot them and watch them down. Without feeling all that bad at all."
Good thing a bunch of people didn't share that point of view and came over and pulled your fat out of the fire.
The Palestinians deserve to be saved just as your people were.
Louis VI the Fat
02-04-2011, 15:26
Will you undo the English conquest and subjugation of French Canada and leave Québec?
Of course Israel is better, the Arabs aren't all dead are they. It absolutely puzzles me why people despise the jews so much. What did they ever do to deserve it? A few settlements? Much worse things have happened, like being absolutely massacred in Jordania by these sick Phalanx lot absolute scum, christians by the way, murderers and rapists, got a great book with photographs from Beirut (the city, not the member that's calling me a nazi) surely they must have had a reason as well
Just musing, Europeans dehumanise the jews because that's easier than admitting what has happened. Israel is a nice excuse, somwhere, somehow. We all know it wasn't just the Nazi's.
What are you omn about? Who here despises the jews? And it's not "just some settlements" when they raze your house and your whole existance to the ground to build it there.
That they were massacred by anyone is completely irrelevant as two wrongs don't make a right. And if you want to make it relevant then I'm going to say exactly because the jews suffered so much, they should know better than to make others suffer, the inability to do that only makes them look like they didn't learn anything or have become heartless and hateful themselves.
For the record I would rather be under palpatine than sauron, palpatine doesnt want to kill or even enslave everyone, just rule over them.
As for hitler vs stalin; I'm a white straight male, hitler had people killed for being a certain race, sexuality or dissability, stalin just killed anyone in the way, I'd at least be safer from roaming government death squads in nazi Germany than stalin Russia.
The Palpatine vs. Sauron was an attempt to not use what I mentioned in spoilers but I had to make sure everyone gets it so I tried not to go for people noone knows.
The whole comparison was only valid in the sense that they were both evil or are you going to argue that either of them was good and deserved to be supported?
Greyblades
02-04-2011, 15:36
No, I just kinda like rooting for the villians. And palpatine was one heck of a villian.
Louis VI the Fat
02-04-2011, 15:37
I'm going to say exactly because the jews suffered so much, they should know better than to make others suffer, the inability to do that only makes them look like they didn't learn anything or have become heartless and hateful themselves.Why should any Jew have learned from the Holocaust?
The camps are not university. Not literature or theatre. You don't learn anything of value there. Nothing comes out of it. It's banal violence, not important lessons for Jews to learn.
It's like decrying that a woman has not learned her lesson after being raped.
Will you undo the English conquest and subjugation of French Canada and leave Québec?
Subjugation of the French? In Quebec?
Pardon me while I laugh uproariously.
:laugh4:
Well, you tell me; werent the people who invaded and occupied your country decades ago exactly the kind of people who would have looked at a boat full of civilians and said: "I'd shoot them and watch them down. Without feeling all that bad at all."
Good thing a bunch of people didn't share that point of view and came over and pulled your fat out of the fire.
The Palestinians deserve to be saved just as your people were.
Yeah yeah, and Hitler really liked dogs, you like dogs
Why should any Jew have learned from the Holocaust?
The camps are not university. Not literature or theatre. You don't learn anything of value there. Nothing comes out of it. It's banal violence, not important lessons for Jews to learn.
It's like decrying that a woman has not learned her lesson after being raped.
I disagree.
There are fundamental things to be learned from being a victim; the abhorent nature of violence and the power of the soul.
Yeah yeah, and Hitler really liked dogs, you like dogs
Okay, I like dogs and you want to kill people.
At least we understand each other. :smiley:
Louis VI the Fat
02-04-2011, 16:20
Subjugation of the French? In Quebec?
Pardon me while I laugh uproariously.
:laugh4:I see.
I wouldn't want to drag this thread into a debate about the English conquest of French America, nor interrupt your laughing uproariously. But a quick comparison could serve to explore the topic further.
Several decades after the conquest, the English conquerers etnically cleansed the Canadian maritime provinces. A third of Frenchmen were killed outright. The remaining ones fled. They still exist. The Cajuns. Do you agree that these French refugees should be returned the lands from which the English occupiers expelled them? There are several million of them.
What, except for a century and a half, is the difference between you and an Israeli colonist?
Okay, I like dogs and you want to kill people.
At least we understand each other. :smiley:
What are you planning to put on the rockets that should be aimed, confetti? Don't want to kill by the way, don't really care if others do. I do care about the Iranian students who are hanged, I care about the beautiful women who are treated like beasts, I couldn't care less about the Palestinians though, got enough friends anyway
Fisherking
02-04-2011, 18:02
Both sides have grievances against the other. Both have shed the blood of innocents.
It is now nothing more than a grudge match and unlikely to end without more bloodshed.
Two wrongs don’t make a right and degrees of guilt don’t make a lot of difference to most people.
Why should any Jew have learned from the Holocaust?
The camps are not university. Not literature or theatre. You don't learn anything of value there. Nothing comes out of it. It's banal violence, not important lessons for Jews to learn.
It's like decrying that a woman has not learned her lesson after being raped.
And the kid that touches a hot plate on the oven cannot learn anything either? And people generally never learn anything in life? Can we not learn anything from the Holocaust and the third Reich either or is it just the jews who are excused?
I disagree.
There are fundamental things to be learned from being a victim; the abhorent nature of violence and the power of the soul.
And that.
Both sides have grievances against the other. Both have shed the blood of innocents.
It is now nothing more than a grudge match and unlikely to end without more bloodshed.
Two wrongs don’t make a right and degrees of guilt don’t make a lot of difference to most people.
There are no two wrongs, one side is determined to go all the way, they will settle for nothing less than total extermination.
I see.
I wouldn't want to drag this thread into a debate about the English conquest of French America, nor interrupt your laughing uproariously. But a quick comparison could serve to explore the topic further.
Well, let's see... though English and though born here, I was schooled in French, always worked in French, got my required licenses (gun, driver, rent-a-cop) in French, opened a business with a French name as required by law, all the government, tax, and business documentation needing to be done in French as required by law, defended myself in French in a French speaking court system, voted for provicial politicians who were all French, and voted in democratic referendums held by French speaking people wanting Quebec to become an independent country. (What other repressive country like Canada allows for it's subjugated peoples to take a big chunck of land and leave whenever they want to, nothing required but a democratitic vote.)
Oh, and when I got cut open and sewed back together again last year... yep, that's right - all in French.
Now, tell unto me once more of the subjugations suffered here, would you please?
Fisherking
02-04-2011, 18:18
There are no two wrongs, one side is determined to go all the way, they will settle for nothing less than total extermination.
And at the moment the other side has the upper hand and is dictating events to a large degree.
Past actions of both parties are indefensible.
And at the moment the other side has the upper hand and is dictating events to a large degree.
Past actions of both parties are indefensible.
Meaning anything, let them relish their hate, kindly keep giving a reason to shoot back. A school for disabled kids was hit few weeks ago, these sadistic bastards. The only reason they shouldn't all be killed is that their children are innocent, they should remember that
What are you planning to put on the rockets that should be aimed, confetti?
Explosives.
The Palestinians have the right to attack and defend themselves against those who have imprisoned them for generations and who plan to continue that imprisonment for generations more.
Don't want to kill by the way, . . .
Then what does "I would shoot them and watch them drown" mean when one speaks of civilians? Or is that Dutch for "I love everybody"?
Explosives.
The Palestinians have the right to attack and defend themselves against those who have imprisoned them for generations and who plan to continue that imprisonment for generations more.
Then what does "I would shoot them and watch them drown" mean when one speaks of civilians? Or is that Dutch for "I love everybody"?
Doesn't mean I don't love them, it's just somewhat differen't, that's a very Dutch thing really we all kinda are. you can make them holes in bodyparts that aren't equiped with any openings by nature, she forgot I guess
Greyblades
02-04-2011, 19:15
What? What are you talking about? Who's she?
What? What are you talking about? Who's she?
Forgot, can't have been very special
PanzerJaeger
02-05-2011, 03:09
Will you undo the English conquest and subjugation of French Canada and leave Québec?
And what of the Canadian subjugation of the Native Americans (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/12/canada.usa)? Megus can discuss at length their suffering. Certainly they deserve all their land back, and until then, Megus would be completely justified in launching rockets indiscriminately at Toronto.
The native population makes up about 4% of Canada's population though it remains among the poorest. Canada was one of the few nations that last year voted against the UN declaration of the rights of indigenous peoples, saying that it would create constitutional problems.
Canada: Still oppressing two centuries later. They make Israel look like noobs...
And what of the Canadian subjugation of the Native Americans? Megus can discuss at length their suffering. Certainly they deserve all their land back, and until then, Megus would be completely justified in launching rockets indiscriminately at Toronto.
I think you will find, sir, that no country has been as as generous in restitution and as observant of treaty with its indigeous people as Canada. And protection for those agreements are entrenched in our constitution. In Quebec alone, treaties with native peoples give them special status rights over hundreds of thousands of square kilometres of land, authority over billions of dollars of natural resources, as well as direct payments and compensation well into the hundreds of millions of dollars.
By the by, nice tank in your sig. My father used to blow those up. :smiley:
PanzerJaeger
02-05-2011, 03:46
I think you will find, sir, that no country has been as as generous in restitution and as observant of treaty with its indigeous people as Canada. And protection for those agreements are entrenched in our constitution. In Quebec alone, treaties with native peoples give them special status rights over hundreds of thousands of square kilometres of land, authority over billions of dollars of natural resources, as well as direct payments and compensation well into the hundreds of millions of dollars.
There's that rosy depiction, and then there's the truth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system#Reconciliation_attempts).
In 1909, Dr. Peter Bryce, general medical superintendent for the Department of Indian Affairs (DIA), reported to the department that between 1894 and 1908 mortality rates at residential schools in Western Canada ranged from 30% to 60% over five years (that is, five years after entry, 30% to 60% of students had died, or 6-12% per annum). These statistics did not become public until 1922, when Bryce, who was no longer working for the government, published The Story of a National Crime: Being a Record of the Health Conditions of the Indians of Canada from 1904 to 1921. In particular, he alleged that the high mortality rates were frequently deliberate, with healthy children being exposed to children with tuberculosis.
The 'restitution' you describe amounts to nothing but trinkets, shiny beeds for Manhatten if you will. Why don't you just give them their land back and go back to Britain or where ever your colonist, oppressor relatives came from? They were there first and you stole their land and genocided them for the hell of it.
Israel's problem is that they haven't been as ruthless as Canada in dealing with their indigenous population. I guess they did learn something from the Holocaust.
By the by, nice tank in your sig. My father used to blow those up.
Unless he found them out of gas and abandoned, I'm doubting he blew up many of those. ~;)
Greyblades
02-05-2011, 03:52
Unless he found it out of gas and abandoned, I'm doubting he blew up many of those.
Indeed, that's a german tank destroyer, I believe, assuming your father operated a bazooka I dont think he would have encountered many of them; they weren't often used against infantry. Also if he was a Sherman tank driver the chances of surviving against them was remote, Sherman's weren't realy known for being particually powerful in comparison to German tanks.
There's that rosy depiction, and then there's the truth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system#Reconciliation_attempts).
Oh, I'm certainly not saying the native people were always well treated, on the contrary - they suffered horrible abuses because of the stupidity of Canadian people. I am the first to agree that we owe the native peoples a huge debt. But I also believe the Canadian people are coming to terms with the truth of the situation and are honestly concerned with making up for the horrors visited upon native peoples because of our ignorance and stupidity. And I say again that few, if any, countries in the world are going as far in making reparations as Canada is.
The 'restitution' you describe amounts to nothing but trinkets, shiny beeds for Manhatten if you will. Why don't you just give them their land back and go back to Britain or where ever your colonist, oppressor relatives came from? They were there first and you stole their land and genocided them for the hell of it.
I can't make up for what happened centuries or even decades before I was born. What I can do is push for and support the native people in their goals right now. I can and I do.
And if you think what the native peoples have received (so far) as restitution is nothing but trinkets, then you really have no idea of the truth. But if you want to excuse the murder of Palestinians by the Israelis by throwing rocks at Canada, that's fine with me. We can carry the converation as far as you would like to take it. But given that the two situations exist as night and day in comparision, it does little to further your argument.
Israel's problem is that they haven't been as ruthless as Canada in dealing with their indigenous population. I guess they did learn something from the Holocaust.
I admit to being befuddled; I'm not sure whether to point out the thundering wrongness of that statement or to simply state how odd it is that the person making it is one who glorifies Nazism.
Unless he found them out of gas and abandoned, I'm doubting he blew up many of those. ~;)
Proof is in the pudding. We won - they lost. And one of the reasons we won is that we blew up a lot of their tanks. :smiley:
Indeed, that's a german tank destroyer, I believe, assuming your father operated a bazooka I dont think he would have encountered many of them; they weren't often used against infantry. Also if he was a Sherman tank driver the chances of surviving against them was remote, Sherman's weren't realy known for being particually powerful in comparison to German tanks.
He was a graduate of Sandhurst and served as a tank commander with the Canadian army in Italy in WWII.
PanzerJaeger
02-05-2011, 05:32
I can't make up for what happened centuries or even decades before I was born.
Yes you can. It's as easy as packing up and moving away. Give the people their land.
I mean, Israel Canada took an extra step into the land of the stupid by not only redrawing borders, but by importing an entire culture and people from another part of the world and plopping it right smack dab in the middle of a place that already had an indigenous population. It was not only criminal and stupid, but criminally stupid.
Who are the ones stealing land, imprisoning thousands without trial, using torture, killing men. woman, and children with every weapon imaginable, denying the very basics of human life, and keeping a million people in a brutal open air concentration camp decade after decade after decade?
And if you think what the native peoples have received (so far) as restitution is nothing but trinkets, then you really have no idea of the truth.
It is nice that you - the occupier who makes a living out of destroying the environment they care so deeply for - have deemed your nation's efforts at restitution 'good enough'.
Maybe if the ones who stole the land and imprisoned, brutalized, tortured, dehumanized, and killed the people who lived there didn't do those things, the other people wouldn't feel so abused.
The Israelis Canadians are the bad guys. They are the ones who continue to steal land. They are the ones who kill far more innocent people than the indigenous peoples. They are the ones who ran concentration camps and keep whole generations locked up under brutal and inhuman conditions.
But given that the two situations exist as night and day in comparision, it does little to further your argument.
Indeed they are. The Israelis never used biological warfare as a method of genocide against Palestinian children. The Israelis have never tried to 'kill the Palestinian in the child'.
I admit to being befuddled; I'm not sure whether to point out the thundering wrongness of that statement or to simply state how odd it is that the person making it is one who glorifies Nazism.
Sieg Heil :rolleyes:
Since the discussion has revolved around evil nations full of genocidal, maniacal, occupying outsiders with no intention of returning the land they stole (and/or ridiculously over-dramatic rhetoric about such nations), Canada seemed to fit right into the equation - except that what they did and continue to do to the natives is at least several orders of magnitude greater than the worst the Israelis have done to the Palestinians. You don't agree?
He was a graduate of Sandhurst and served as a tank commander with the Canadian army in Italy in WWII.
Considering the fact that no Jagdpanthers served in Italy, I have an even harder time believing your father ever blew one up.
Louis VI the Fat
02-05-2011, 07:04
Well, let's see... though English and though born here, I was schooled in French, always worked in French, got my required licenses (gun, driver, rent-a-cop) in French, opened a business with a French name as required by law, all the government, tax, and business documentation needing to be done in French as required by law, defended myself in French in a French speaking court system, voted for provicial politicians who were all French, and voted in democratic referendums held by French speaking people wanting Quebec to become an independent country. (What other repressive country like Canada allows for it's subjugated peoples to take a big chunck of land and leave whenever they want to, nothing required but a democratitic vote.)
Oh, and when I got cut open and sewed back together again last year... yep, that's right - all in French.
Now, tell unto me once more of the subjugations suffered here, would you please?It it not about Canada, but about establishing guiding principles.
Does your stance on Canada mean that in principle you think Israel should exist, but that it should treat the Palestinians as well as English Canadians treat their minorities?
It it not about Canada, but about establishing guiding principles.
Does your stance on Canada mean that in principle you think Israel should exist, but that it should treat the Palestinians as well as English Canadians treat their minorities?
Allowing them to rule themselves in territories that are their own, only Canadian in name? Ah well. Where teh outraged over the Marrocans illegally holding the Western Sahara, where are they when Turkey uses gas against the Kurds, where are they when Egypt gasses Palestinians. Horrible way to die, your longues actually melt, you live long enough to cough parts of them up, 30 minutes or so.
Yes you can. It's as easy as packing up and moving away. Give the people their land.
I mean, Israel Canada took an extra step into the land of the stupid by not only redrawing borders, but by importing an entire culture and people from another part of the world and plopping it right smack dab in the middle of a place that already had an indigenous population. It was not only criminal and stupid, but criminally stupid.
Reading your posts I get the feeling you support the Palestinians.
That's very enlightened of you. :sunny:
Who are the ones stealing land, imprisoning thousands without trial, using torture, killing men. woman, and children with every weapon imaginable, denying the very basics of human life, and keeping a million people in a brutal open air concentration camp decade after decade after decade?
The Israelis.
Is it just me or is there somehting really weird about being lectured to on the rights of Jewish people by someone with a tag and sig that would frighten a Jewish grandmother right into her grave?
It is nice that you - the occupier who makes a living out of destroying the environment they care so deeply for - have deemed your nation's efforts at restitution 'good enough'.
I've worked on reserves cutting trees and clearing out for maple sugar stands with Mohawks. Believe me, I think I was the most environmentally minded guy there.
Indeed they are. The Israelis never used biological warfare as a method of genocide against Palestinian children.
Well it's not a good tactic for people living only a mile away.
Sieg Heil.
Whatever turns you on, baby.
Since the discussion has revolved around evil nations full of genocidal, maniacal, occupying outsiders with no intention of returning the land they stole (and/or ridiculously over-dramatic rhetoric about such nations), Canada seemed to fit right into the equation - except that what they did and continue to do to the natives is at least several orders of magnitude greater than the worst the Israelis have done to the Palestinians. You don't agree?
Not in the least. As time goes by Canada gives more land back to the native people, grants them more special rights and jurisdition, and pays more restitution. Israel just keep taking and killing and taking and killing.
Considering the fact that no Jagdpanthers served in Italy, I have an even harder time believing your father ever blew one up.
None in Italy? Were they up in Poland with the SS beating up old women or in France having "senior staff" fellatio parties*?
(*I was just reading The Arms of Krupp and there is the story of Fritz Krupp getting busted for being a pedophile and the authour describes the rampant sodomy taking place between German officers in the Reich. Gives a whole new meaning to "breach loading" doesn't it?)
It it not about Canada, but about establishing guiding principles.
Does your stance on Canada mean that in principle you think Israel should exist, but that it should treat the Palestinians as well as English Canadians treat their minorities?
I believe the creation of Israel was a criminal, but it's too late to do anything about it. Israel exists and that's that. And no, the Israelis should have no jurisdiction over the Palestinians. Palestine has to be a free country.
It isn't even the worst they use schools for http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&tbs=vid%3A1&q=hamas+schools&btnG=Zoeken&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=
Ever considered that a state would make terror an domestic thing, they aren't going to burn their hands at that as long as they get it all for free.
Ibn-Khaldun
02-05-2011, 14:27
I think that neither side wants this situation solved. It is beneficial for both Israel and Palestinians to have an arch(?) enemy. It's much easier to blame some one else for all the bad things that happen in your home. I'm quite sure that my grandchildren will talk about the situation in Israel/Palestine.
PanzerJaeger
02-06-2011, 13:14
Reading your posts I get the feeling you support the Palestinians.
The only thing I support in this thread is the insanely over the top rhetoric that can be applied to virtually every developed nation on earth. Such hysterics make the backroom fun.
Is it just me or is there somehting really weird about being lectured to on the rights of Jewish people by someone with a tag and sig that would frighten a Jewish grandmother right into her grave?
Please try and keep up. I'm lecturing you on the Native Americans that you are currently oppressing.
Not in the least. As time goes by Canada gives more land back to the native people, grants them more special rights and jurisdition, and pays more restitution.
The language of the oppressor, ladies and gentlemen, from a citizen of the nation that voted against the UN declaration of the rights of indigenous peoples. You've stolen their land, destroyed their civilizations, and genocided their children - and now you're offering them grants! How enlightened.
Why don't you just leave, Beirut? Remove your jackboot from these poor people's collective throat, pack up, and go. You're living and profiting directly from stolen land, while the victims remain some of the poorest people in the Western Hemisphere.
Canada is a criminal, genocidal nation and I fully support violent insurrection against Euro-Canadians. It's time some inaccurate rockets landed in your backyard, so you can begin to feel the pain of the victims you are currently oppressing.
None in Italy?
Nope, not a one - and your father should consider himself lucky for that indeed.
The only thing I support in this thread is the insanely over the top rhetoric that can be applied to virtually every developed nation on earth. Such hysterics make the backroom fun.
What's rock & roll without feedback? :smiley:
Please try and keep up. I'm lecturing you on the Native Americans that you are currently oppressing.
I simply thought you needed to do a better job of it.
The language of the oppressor, ladies and gentlemen, from a citizen of the nation that voted against the UN declaration of the rights of indigenous peoples. You've stolen their land, destroyed their civilizations, and genocided their children - and now you're offering them grants! How enlightened.
Why don't you just leave, Beirut? Pack up and go. You're living and profiting directly from stolen land, while the victims remain some of the poorest people in the Western Hemisphere.
Canada is a criminal, genocidal nation and I fully support violent insurrection against Euro-Canadians. It's time some inaccurate rockets landed in your backyard, so you can begin to feel the pain of the victims you are currently oppressing.
Soaring prose, lad. Soaring prose.
I can't say that it bears a hint of a whiff of a sniff of reality in it, but by God it was well written.
Nope, not a one - and your father should consider himself lucky for that indeed.
I don't see why. Since the Germans got whacked in every theater they fought in, that means someone was blowing those things up. And since my father was a someone and fought in a theater of WWII, it stands to reason that would have blown some up, too.
So whether it was the Russians blowing them up "BOOM!" or the Americans blowing them up "BOOM!" or the British blowing them up "BOOM!" or the Canadians blowing them up "BOOM!", the fact remains - they done go blowed up
"BOOM!"
Louis VI the Fat
02-06-2011, 14:13
Forget about the Six Nations*, this weekend's best entertainment is provided by the nazi and the lumberjack. :beam:
* The Euro rugby tournament that is, not the genocided people from whose stolen land Beirut castigates others for stealing land. ~;p
GO SQUIRRALS, really just get the hell out of there
Fisherking
02-06-2011, 15:02
Forget about the Six Nations*, this weekend's best entertainment is provided by the nazi and the lumberjack. :beam:
* The Euro rugby tournament that is, not the genocided people from whose stolen land Beirut castigates others for stealing land. ~;p
Dose anyone else see the irony of a Frenchman discussing the land theft of others? Particularly Canadian land theft?
After all Canada is a relatively new country. The original theft took place under French and or British control.
Also one could make a reasonable argument that excepting Île-de-France the whole country was snatched away from its rightful owners. :hmg:
[QUOTE=Fisherking;2053261613]Dose anyone else see the irony of a Frenchman discussing the land theft of others? /QUOTE]
Irony makes them French to begin with, it's like Belgium sweating pure testosteron. Hold them back
Soaring prose, lad. Soaring prose.
So is a lot of what you say about the Israel-Palestine conflict, I think that is PJ's point.
I don't see why. Since the Germans got whacked in every theater they fought in, that means someone was blowing those things up. And since my father was a someone and fought in a theater of WWII, it stands to reason that would have blown some up, too.
So whether it was the Russians blowing them up "BOOM!" or the Americans blowing them up "BOOM!" or the British blowing them up "BOOM!" or the Canadians blowing them up "BOOM!", the fact remains - they done go blowed up
"BOOM!"
The emphasis and repetition towards the end cannot distract from the fact that you're heavily backpedaling now. ~;)
Though it doesn't really matter whether your father destroyed a Jagdpanther or not, he probably did a good job anyway....
Furunculus
02-06-2011, 16:11
By the by, nice tank in your sig. My father used to blow those up. :smiley:
is that intended to:
a) advance the current debate,
b) merely act a 'pleasantry', or;
c) troll for a angry reaction,
just curious.............?
I stopped responding a while ago. There was no point when some one just regurgitates something blindingly like a Fox News talk-host, and doesn't address certain hypocrisies in their posts.
Well, from what I've seen, a lot of people here seem very concerned with the rights of displaced indigeous peoples.
Methinks the Palestinians have much more backing now then they did a few pages back. Either that of the people who back Israel are freely admitting the land was stolen and that the Palesting are getting screwed over by right of might.
is that intended to:
a) advance the current debate,
b) merely act a 'pleasantry', or;
c) troll for a angry reaction,
just curious.............?
Just having some fun, bubby. :smiley:
Furunculus
02-06-2011, 18:17
I stopped responding a while ago. There was no point when some one just regurgitates something blindingly like a Fox News talk-host, and doesn't address certain hypocrisies in their posts.
agreed, this did rather become a purposeless thread rather than a vehicle for discussion and learning.
PanzerJaeger
02-07-2011, 00:19
Soaring prose, lad. Soaring prose.
I can't say that it bears a hint of a whiff of a sniff of reality in it, but by God it was well written.
And that is the point.
I've read your posts for years Beirut, and even though you do not post here very often anymore, I remember that they were always insightful, measured responses - except when discussing this particular topic. I don't know if it triggers an emotional reaction in you, or if you think such methods further your point, but you become a one man propaganda machine for the Palestinian cause.
Now of course you are free to post whatever you like, but I just wanted to point out that people tune out such absolutist rhetoric and your opinion soon loses credibility.
I don't see why. Since the Germans got whacked in every theater they fought in, that means someone was blowing those things up.
Interestingly enough, the Allies eventually had great success in every theatre except one. ~;)
Greyblades
02-07-2011, 00:48
Was that the one between russia and finland?
And that is the point.
I've read your posts for years Beirut, and even though you do not post here very often anymore, I remember that they were always insightful, measured responses
Kind of you to say.
- except when discussing this particular topic. I don't know if it triggers an emotional reaction in you, or if you think such methods further your point, but you become a one man propaganda machine for the Palestinian cause.
I see a people imprisoned and suffering. How can I not jump to their defense?
Now of course you are free to post whatever you like, but I just wanted to point out that people tune out such absolutist rhetoric and your opinion soon loses credibility.
My concern isn't whether people tune out; my concern is that people speak loudly and forcefully when they see people being victimized. There is a lot of stigma and stones thrown at people who support the Palestinians. It's important that those people doing the throwing never think for one moment that the other side will ever give in, tone down, or walk away in fear. This is a human rights issue. Absolutism is required.
Interestingly enough, the Allies eventually had great success in every theatre except one. ~;)
And you will be dropping this particular shoe when?
Sounds really bad that prison, really confuses me why all Palestians I know visit it every year. I'm invited for the summer, should I go it sounds kinda dangerous
Sounds really bad that prison, really confuses me why all Palestians I know visit it every year. I'm invited for the summer, should I go it sounds kinda dangerous
Home is home, even if it's not the best place. And why should a person not go home just because someone else is making it a bad place to be?
I think Palestinians going back to Gaza shows a lot of heart.
al Roumi
02-08-2011, 12:06
Sounds really bad that prison, really confuses me why all Palestians I know visit it every year. I'm invited for the summer, should I go it sounds kinda dangerous
I totally think you should go. I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts afterwards.
Sounds really bad that prison, really confuses me why all Palestians I know visit it every year. I'm invited for the summer, should I go it sounds kinda dangerous
I would go, who cares if its dangerous you'll probably be fine and it would be fun.
Seamus Fermanagh
02-08-2011, 22:32
And what of the Canadian subjugation of the Native Americans (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/12/canada.usa)? Megus can discuss at length their suffering. Certainly they deserve all their land back, and until then, Megus would be completely justified in launching rockets indiscriminately at Toronto....
Of course not. By Beirut's logic he would be justified in targeting RCArmy and RCMP facilities as they are armed components of the oppressor state. Beirut was very clear about the AIMING thing, PJ. Beirut has NOT succumbed to the "They hit our kids so we should hit theirs" philosophy -- he has merely noted that there are those who do think that.
I would go, who cares if its dangerous you'll probably be fine and it would be fun.
That was kinda sarcasm. I know it will be fun should I go and I know that I will have no problems whatsoever beyond sugar-overdose how can they eat that. Which is kinda the point, things aren't all that bad there, most certainly not a humanitarian disaster. And if there was any the only thing that sets it apart is that it are Israeli's doing it. Total silence on where it's much much worse. Not going by the way
al Roumi
02-09-2011, 14:09
things aren't all that bad there, most certainly not a humanitarian disaster. And if there was any the only thing that sets it apart is that it are Israeli's doing it. Total silence on where it's much much worse. Not going by the way
Strange because UNRWA is still massively busy there. Must be a holiday camp.
Strange because UNRWA is still massively busy there. Must be a holiday camp.
I can find you plenty that it is
guess who is he UN there by the way, all money is byebye
al Roumi
02-09-2011, 15:04
I can find you plenty that it is
guess who is he UN there by the way, all money is byebye
Go on, tell me that they are all obese and therefore actually over-indulging.
Go on, tell me that they are all obese and therefore actually over-indulging.
Never said all, but they are the second fattest people in the universe and surroundings yes
al Roumi
02-09-2011, 16:30
Never said all, but they are the second fattest people in the universe and surroundings yes
http://www.duo.uio.no/sok/work.html?WORKID=18238
Nutritional status and lifestyle among school adolescents in Gaza strip, 2003, Abudayya, Abdallah Hassan, University of Oslo
Results: The prevalence of underweight was 4.9%, overweight was 12.8%, obesity was 5.5% and stunting was 9.6%, the latter being higher among boys than girls. The prevalence of anemia was 48.1%. It was higher among girls than boys 51.4% and 44.2% respectively. Higher consumption in starch items was found compared to other important food items such as animal products, mainly meat, and dairy products as well as fruits and vegetables. Food frequency intake seems to be positively related to socio-economic status for all food groups.
However no relationship was found between the frequency intakes of the different food groups and BMI, except for starchy items that were negatively associated with BMI. Poverty and low level of education in parents was associated with the high prevalence of chronic
malnutrition (stunting). Adolescents’ lifestyle seemed to be affected by the urbanization as well as the political situation. A high sedentary lifestyle and physical inactivity was observed in this study. A relatively high number of dieting adolescents and skipping meals patterns was also observed. The prevalence of smoking was found to be relatively high in adolescents at this age.
Conclusion: Stunting, overweight/obesity and anemia are considered public health problems among the adolescents in Gaza and immediate actions to improve the nutritional status of this age group should be taken. Multi-sector coordination between different ministries and community NGOs in order to improve the nutritional status of the adolescents in Palestine should take place. The Nutrition
Department in the Ministry of Health should take the leading role and initiate this and take the initiative to develop a national plan which aims at improving the nutritional status and maintain well-being of young children and adolescents.
And for more points:
www.who.int/countryfocus/cooperation_strategy/ccsbrief_pse_en.pdf
Demographic and epidemiological transition is occurring. The fertility rate remains high at 4.6 children per woman, while infant and under-five mortality rates are low at 24.2 and 28.5 per 1000 live births respectively. Noncommunicable diseases are the major causes of mortality (heart disease 19.1%, cerebrovascular conditions 8.2%, cancers 9.9%, and a sharp increase in accidents from 9 per 100 000 in 1995 to 32.2 per 100 000 in 2004) together with perinatal conditions (9.7%).a Communicable diseases including pneumonia, respiratory infections, viral hepatitis (A, B and C) and tuberculosis account for 10% of deaths. HIV/AIDS is not yet a significant problem.
Mental health morbidity is increasing. Levels of psychological trauma and stress are high especially for children and young people. Almost 50% of children report personal experience of conflict-related violence or have witnessed violence. Aggressive behaviour among children and adolescents is increasingly reported. Since 2000 there has been a significant increase in the number of patients seeking treatment at community mental health centres.
Chronic malnutrition and dietary-related disease are slowly increasing. Iron-deficiency anaemia affects 25% of children under five and 33% of women of child-bearing age; stunting is increasing in children under five; premature and low birth weight are responsible for 25.9% of all reported infant deaths in 2004. Obesity nd chronic diseases related to diet are increasing in older groups. There is a significant health imbalance between West Bank and Gaza Strip. Infant mortality rates are 30% higher in Gaza (30.2 per 1000) than in the West Bank (20 per 1000) and mortality figures in Gaza have increased by 15% compared with pre-intifada figures.
Yes, a holiday camp.
The who huh
I hope Banqo isn't going to get all to angry with me, but it's really true. Inbreeding causes most of all that
al Roumi
02-09-2011, 17:06
The who huh
I hope Banqo isn't going to get all to angry with me, but it's really true. Inbreeding causes most of all that
Really? That's not what those SCIENTISTS and MEDICAL DOCTORS say above. Who should I believe?
Poverty and low level of education in parents was associated with the high prevalence of chronic malnutrition (stunting). Adolescents’ lifestyle seemed to be affected by the urbanization as well as the political situation. A high sedentary lifestyle and physical inactivity was observed in this study.
Louis VI the Fat
02-10-2011, 00:16
The who huh
I hope Banqo isn't going to get all to angry with me, but it's really true. Inbreeding causes most of all thatListen to daddy and start giving sources. :smash:
I don't know if the extremely high obesity levels in Gaza are the result of inbreeding, but many other physical and mental problems are. For example, boys mistaken for girls:
Until last summer, both Nadir and Ahmed were -- for all intents and purposes -- girls. They wore female headscarves, attended girls' school and even answered to the female first names Navin and Ola.
Both Nadir and Ahmed were born with a rare birth defect called male pseudohermaphrodism.
Deficiency of the hormone 17-B-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (17-B-HSD) during pregnancy left their male reproductive organs deformed and buried deep within their abdomens.
At birth, doctors identified Nadir and Ahmed as girls, because they appeared to have female genitalia.
As a result, they spent the first 16 years of their lives dressing and acting like girls. It was a role that grew increasingly difficult to play, as they hit puberty and their bodies began generating testosterone, resulting in facial hair and increasingly masculine features.
"They used to travel by car to girls' school and back," says Nadir's father Mohammed Sadih Ahmed Saleh. "Because of their facial hair, it was difficult for them to go out into the street. Psychologically they were distressed."
[...]
There are an unusually high number of male pseudohermaphrodite births in the Gaza neighborhood of Jabalya, where Nadir and Ahmed live.
Dr. Jehad Abudaia, a Canadian-Palestinian pediatrician and urologist practicing in Gaza, says he has diagnosed nearly 80 cases like Nadir's and Ahmed's in the last seven years."It is astonishing that we have [so] many cases with this defect, which is very rare all over the world," Abudaia says. He attributes the high frequency of this birth defect to "consanguinity," or in-breeding.
"If you want to go to the root of the problem, this problem runs in families in the genes." Abudaia says. "They want to get married to cousins... they don't go to another family. This is a problem."
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/12/17/gaza.gender.id/index.html
Louis VI the Fat
02-10-2011, 00:27
Pathological research on suicide bombers revealed that 90% suffered from severe mental or physical defects. Islamic / Afghan society having little patience with deformities, these social outcast wre driven into martyrs.
Many Islamic societies have high levels of consaguity. This creates unusually high numbers of people with mental or physical disabilities: the very people that are recruited / driven into martyrdom. In this manner, Islamic terrorism is closely linked with Islamic inbreeding. :book:
Pathologist: Taliban Mostly Recruits Afghans With Disabilities For Suicide Bombings
KABUL, AFGHANISTAN--National Public Radio's Morning Edition reported Monday that most of the increasing number of Taliban suicide bombers in Afghanistan are believed to have had physical or mental disabilities.
NPR quoted forensic pathologist Dr. Yusuf Yadgari, who claims that, based on autopsies performed on the remains of recent suicide bombers, nearly 90 percent had a disability or medical condition such as leprosy.
"They are probably resentful because in Afghan society they are outcasts," Dr.Yadgari said. "They hold a grudge because many of them can't get a job. So, to make money for their families, they agree to become suicide bombers."
He added that it is often difficult to identify those who have successfully carried out suicide missions for the Taliban because they seldom carry identification, and family members seldom come forward to claim their remains.
News services have not been able to confirm Yadgari's claims, which were first announced in May of this year. Canada's Globe and Mail reported, however, that his findings were consistent with the number of would-be suicide bombers whose missions have failed, either because they have changed their minds or because they have been stopped by law enforcement or soldiers.
That was kinda sarcasm. I know it will be fun should I go and I know that I will have no problems whatsoever beyond sugar-overdose how can they eat that. Which is kinda the point, things aren't all that bad there, most certainly not a humanitarian disaster. And if there was any the only thing that sets it apart is that it are Israeli's doing it. Total silence on where it's much much worse. Not going by the way
Oh yea duh I forgot about all that stuff you said earlier.
al Roumi
02-10-2011, 12:40
Many Islamic societies have high levels of consaguity. This creates unusually high numbers of people with mental or physical disabilities
So where's the source to say that? Isn't that the biggest whopper in your piece -that Islamic societies are inbred? I'm not denying that many tribal (and other) societies will be but if you're going to use the book emoticon...
As to the degree of people with disabilities being suicide bombers, that to me speaks as much to the exploitative grooming of bombers. This is at odds with the use of videos etc to carry a message of "commitment to the cause" by Palestinian and others, to indicate "martyrdom" by a healthy individual, fully conscious of their decisions.
Louis VI the Fat
02-10-2011, 13:00
So where's the source to say that? Isn't that the biggest whopper in your piece -that Islamic societies are inbred?http://www.reproductive-health-journal.com/content/6/1/17/table/T1 :book:
Statistical research on Arabic countries shows that up to 34 percent of all marriages in Algiers are consanguine (blood related), 46 percent in Bahrain, 33 percent in Egypt, 80 percent in Nubia (southern area in Egypt), 60 percent in Iraq, 64 percent in Jordan, 64 percent in Kuwait, 42 percent in Lebanon, 48 percent in Libya, 47 percent in Mauritania, 54 percent in Qatar, 67 percent in Saudi Arabia, 63 percent in Sudan, 40 percent in Syria, 39 percent in Tunisia, 54 percent in the United Arabic Emirates and 45 percent in Yemen (Reproductive Health Journal, 2009
~~o~~o~~<<oOo>>~~o~~o~~
The problem of Islamic inbreeding is not limited to tribal societies:
Britain's huge Pakistani community should be legally prevented from marrying first cousins, a Labour Party MP has declared, after new research showed Pakistani families produced an alarming 30% of the UK's genetically diseased children.
The research, conducted by the BBC and broadcast to a shocked nation on Tuesday, found that at least 55% of the community was married to a first cousin.
This is thought to be linked to the probability that a British Pakistani family is at least 13 times more likely than the general population to have children with recessive genetic disorders. The research found that while British Pakistanis accounted for just 3.4% of all births, they had 30% of all British children with recessive disorders and a higher rate of infant mortality.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1298135,curpg-1.cms
It's all so much more fun when they call bull first, gracias Luigi
al Roumi
02-10-2011, 14:58
Frag's, isn't that a bit ironic given our immediately preceeding exchange?
Thank you Louis, I wasn't contradicting you, just asking you to be rigorous when you are asking for rigour.
Frag's, isn't that a bit ironic given our immediately preceeding exchange?
Not that much don't worry we aren't related :sweetheart:
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