Why Bosnia and Kosovo?

[Noncommunist]

In the 1990s, the US got involved in Bosnia and Kosovo and fought against the Serbs who used to rule the area beforehand. However, I can't think of any resources in the area of any geopolitical advantages there are in that region. So it would seem that reasons for involving ourselves in those countries was humanitarian. Yet, at the same time, there were plenty of other nasty ethnic conflicts going on. What made Bosnia and Kosovo different that they would warrant attention? Could it have been timing? That we would have some collective guilt about not interfering in Rwanda that we would try to make up for it in Bosnia? Or did the media just care more about white people than black or brown people? Proximity to NATO allies as we wouldn't want destabilization in their area? Or just plain luck on behalf of the Bosniaks, Croats, and Kosovars?

[Sarmatian]

Backroom...

[Noncommunist]

Backroom...

How far does it have to be before it belongs in the realm of the monastery?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Yugoslavia...genocides....care more for White than Black people...


...I think I'll ethnically cleanse this thread to the Backroom.

[Subotan]

That we would have some collective guilt about not interfering in Rwanda that we would try to make up for it in Bosnia
It was a mixture of this and the pathetic failure of the United Nations to keep the so-called Safe Areas free from bigoted murderers.

[Strike For The South]

The bosnians had the foresight to be born white and European

Granted why anyone would waste anything trying to fix the balkans is beyond me

[Banquo's Ghost]

..I think I'll ethnically cleanse this thread to the Backroom.

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled debating points yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming Monastery.

Send these, the homeless, clueless to me,

I lift my flame beside the golden forum!"

[drone]

I always had an inkling that part of the Balkans intervention was the last gasp of the cold warriors. The Serbs are Orthodox just like the Russians, so close enough. "Everybody is killing everybody, but these guys are Russian proxies!" After that Kosovo was just habit, and unwillingness to admit to our mistakes from the first go around.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Because the European nations was to hestiant to do anything so we can to do the work for them as usual :goofy:.

[Strike For The South]

Because the European nations was to hestiant to do anything so we can to do the work for them as usual :goofy:.

exactly, becuase all Europeans are spineless women, unwilling to oppress or subjugate any peoples

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

exactly, becuase all Europeans are spineless women, unwilling to oppress or subjugate any peoples


Extacly, just look at Libyra now. Sure, France may have "taken the first step" but it was us who really led the way.... as usual.

[Strike For The South]

Extacly, just look at Libyra now. Sure, France may have "taken the first step" but it was us who really led the way.... as usual.

Pray tell what are we doing in Lybia right now

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Supposdliey we got agents on the ground there :goofy:.

[Strike For The South]

Supposdliey we got agents on the ground there :goofy:.

Ignorance is bliss

[Hosakawa Tito]

Pray tell what are we doing in Lybia right now

Protecting the EU's oil supply.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Ignorance is bliss

Saying I don't know what I'm talknig about?

[Strike For The South]

Saying I don't know what I'm talknig about?

I am

[Jaguara]

Bosnia was a traditional peacekeeping operation. From what I heard from friends who served there, they did not engage as combat troops. Thus it is a very different kind of intervention.


Regarding Kosovo...

Frankly, I am a bit more cynical. I think it was just convenience. Clinton needed something to distract the attention from the Monica Lewinsky case. Also, he hadn't bombed anyone yet, and no American presidency is complete without a good bombing!

Joking aside, certainly there were other reasons, but when the issue was raised, Clinton I do think my first point played into the mix...and may have been a big part of why he engaged so eagerly. Also, the Democrats tend to think that engaging in a little war will keep the Republicans off their backs, and keep them from looking "weak". :rolleyes:

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I am

And you think you do? Very Unlikely.

[Strike For The South]

And you think you do? Very Unlikely.

I'm willing to take my chances esp with someone who thinks we have "agents on the ground"



Too little is known about Libya's rebels and they remain too fragmented for the United States to get seriously involved in organizing or training them, let alone arming them, U.S. and European officials say.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/14/us-libya-usa-rebels-idUSTRE73D68S20110414?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

But hey you've got that promising writing carreer ahead of you, I'm sure there's nothing to worry about

[Subotan]

Because the European nations was to hestiant to do anything so we can to do the work for them as usual :goofy:.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/13/world/africa/13nato.html

His remarks, echoed by Foreign Minister Alain Juppé of France, reflected what officials have described as a complex and at times convoluted coalition, with many participating countries refusing to carry out airstrikes against forces on the ground, even as their planes patrol the skies over Libya.

Britain and France, for example, are now flying the bulk of the attack missions, with Norway, Denmark and Canada also striking Libyan targets on the ground. But other countries, including the Netherlands, Sweden, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates, are taking less aggressive roles, enforcing the no-fly zone over Libya or conducting reconnaissance missions, in a nod to political considerations back home.

...

The varying tactics reflect the different ways in which each country in the coalition views the mission, and how tough it has been to corral all the participants into focused attacks.
In Washington, Obama administration officials sought to tamp down a growing sense of concern among some military analysts that the combination of the Americans’ back-seat role, NATO’s inexperience in waging a complicated air campaign against moving targets and botched communications with the ragtag rebel army had thrown the mission into disarray.

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrexhus-8kw)QED (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrexhus-8kw)

Est Europa nunc unita...

[Brenus]

“Backroom...”: I am not history!!!!!:bigcry:
I am not THAT old…:inquisitive:

To answer (partially) the question: Media campaign and need to have a contra-balance to the systematic support for Israel…
It was good to help Muslims. And they had the advantage to be white… Most of them.

Some Serbs will tell you about Moniqua Lewinsky as well…

It is Europe. Landscapes, population, habits, daily life, every thing is like in Europe/USA.

That was my second war. But this one, I couldn’t keep it out of me. Bosnian hills look Savoie.

Now, why the Serbs were chosen as the badies?
First because the media were slow to react.
When Slovenia became Independent, it was in few weeks, and nobody really understood what happened. The cold murder perpetrated by the Slovene Prime Minister in front of the world Camera then the quick withdrawing of the Federal Army took every body by surprise.
When the Croats started the Barracks Wars, again nobody was there, and when Susak (Croat) shelled Borovo Selo (Serbs) in April 1991 same story. It became a story when the Yugoslav Army finally decided to intervene in Vukovar in November.
The media were there and started to show the poor Croats hunted down by the Serbs.
The fact that the Croatian Nationalists were referring to the ustasa (Nazi) regime was pushed under the carpet with ease and style.
You can add the bombardment of Dubrovnik…

Same story for Bosnia: Systematic rapes, poor defenceless Muslims against the mighty Serbs and the will to not allow truth to spoil a good story started the process, then the media were able to do a proper information job.
No body seemed to notice than the Green Beret (The Eagle of Islam) were created one year before the start of the war…

So, the war between Croats and Muslims, Muslim (Izetbegovic) against Muslim (Abdic), all what can add complexity to the understanding was avoided.

As for Kosovo, well, the machine just carried on.

Of course, it is more complex than this and the Serbian side was not exempt of mistakes and murders. I can probably write a book about it.
In fact I did.
Wasn’t published mind you…

But Serbs were not good at PR.
So they lost the war.

[Rahwana]

well, the Serbians are just unlucky that time
just like Khadaffi today

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I'm willing to take my chances esp with someone who thinks we have "agents on the ground"



http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/14/us-libya-usa-rebels-idUSTRE73D68S20110414?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

But hey you've got that promising writing carreer ahead of you, I'm sure there's nothing to worry about

Old quote but hey, everyone loves you so I'm sure that won't cause any doubts about your posts here :yes:.

[Strike For The South]

Old quote but hey, everyone loves you so I'm sure that won't cause any doubts about your posts here :yes:.


An old quote, from an hour ago?

What a clown

[Sarmatian]

But Serbs were not good at PR.
So they lost the war.

Well, everybody learned the lesson nowadays. In any conflict, the first thing to do is to hire the most expensive American PR agency, then the second most expensive, then the third and if you have some money left over, the fourth. Whatever pittance there is after that, you equip your troops.

[Vuk]

Yugoslavia was the 'chink in Stalin's armour', but after the Bloc collapsed, they were just a standing communist state that could cause potential problems and the Western nations wanted to take them down to destroy the strong communist presence in Central Europe. It was all just politics and a stupid public...

[Strike For The South]

Yugoslavia was the 'chink in Stalin's armour', but after the Bloc collapsed, they were just a standing communist state that could cause potential problems and the Western nations wanted to take them down to destroy the strong communist presence in Central Europe. It was all just politics and a stupid public...

you have a thread with questions for you to answer

[Jaguara]

I'm willing to take my chances esp with someone who thinks we have "agents on the ground"


http://warnewsupdates.blogspot.com/2011/03/british-sas-forces-are-in-libya-8.html

This was from back in March. We only know about them because they were caught.

To be honest, anyone who thinks there are not already special forces in the region from all the major involved players is delusional. They are there, they may not be active, they may only be observing, but they are there.

Your own article states:

CIA operatives on the ground are aggressively collecting information on the rebels, their structure, leadership and military capabilities, U.S. officials said.

I think that pretty much translates to "agents on the ground".

[Strike For The South]

I wasnt aware British SAS came under American jurisduction

Nor does that make warman right, he's still talking out of his ass

[Jaguara]

I wasnt aware British SAS came under American jurisduction

Nor does that make warman right, he's still talking out of his ass

The point is that allied Special forces have been in the region since this started. Do you think the US did not also deploy an observation team?

Convenient that you ignore the second part of the post, where the article you referenced even refers to CIA assets in Libya. Last time I checked, the CIA does still come under American jurisdiction.

I am sorry, but you are attacking his statements because of him being him, and not on the merits of the statements themselves. Frankly, I think that is beneath you.

[Strike For The South]

When a post like this comes up


Because the European nations was to hestiant to do anything so we can to do the work for them as usual :goofy:.


I do get a bit self rightoues, Their of course is bound to be a nugget of truth in such vauge posting but that doesnt mean we should premit it

[Banquo's Ghost]

Please refrain from baiting other posters and from personal attacks.

Thank you kindly.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I wasnt aware British SAS came under American jurisduction

Nor does that make warman right, he's still talking out of his ass

If you think I'm talking out of my ass then I guess most of the missles fired into Libya that are actually ours must not be ours because it might hurt your online ego?


Do some research my friend, Google.
http://benmest.com/news/more-than-110-tomahawk-cruise-missiles-into-libya/


Saturday, The U.S. fired more than 110 Tomahawk cruise missiles into Libya from the sea while French fighter jets targeted Moammar Gadhafi’s forces from the air. Having previously, President of the United States, Barack Obama renounce the Libyan leader, Moammar Gaddafi, and finally the attack is completely done.




Just from March.



:bow:

[Subotan]

Do some research my friend, Google.
...

From the April 13th 2011 edition of the New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/13/world/africa/13nato.html


His remarks, echoed by Foreign Minister Alain Juppé of France, reflected what officials have described as a complex and at times convoluted coalition, with many participating countries refusing to carry out airstrikes against forces on the ground, even as their planes patrol the skies over Libya.

Britain and France, for example, are now flying the bulk of the attack missions, with Norway, Denmark and Canada also striking Libyan targets on the ground. But other countries, including the Netherlands, Sweden, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates, are taking less aggressive roles, enforcing the no-fly zone over Libya or conducting reconnaissance missions, in a nod to political considerations back home.

...

The varying tactics reflect the different ways in which each country in the coalition views the mission, and how tough it has been to corral all the participants into focused attacks.
In Washington, Obama administration officials sought to tamp down a growing sense of concern among some military analysts that the combination of the Americans’ back-seat role, NATO’s inexperience in waging a complicated air campaign against moving targets and botched communications with the ragtag rebel army had thrown the mission into disarray.

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrexhus-8kw)QED (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrexhus-8kw)

Est Europa nunc unita...

[Jaguara]

If you think I'm talking out of my ass then I guess most of the missles fired into Libya that are actually ours must not be ours because it might hurt your online ego?


Interesting, I am getting the impression by your recent comments that you are actually an American?

While I supported your other comment regarding people "being on the ground" - probably including guidance for some of those cruise missile attacks you referenced, I would not support your comments regarding the US having a lead role in this mission, or that Britain & France have not been willing to engage.

From the beginning, it was Britain and France who pushed for this, and I believe they have been the most active.

I have not seen any qualitative analysis about the number of attack missions by each country.


Britain and France, for example, are now flying the bulk of the attack missions,
True, but the cruise missiles he referred to are not delivered by flying combat missions. If Britain and France flew 100 combat missions, and the US flew 10, but the US also launched 110 cruise missiles...well, that is really 120 engagements. That said, I don't know (I am just pointing out that the quote is not necessarily a proof), and we are not being provided the info to determine, who is doing the most engagement.

That said, is it really important? I think it is safe to say that Warman's assertion that the US is doing most of the work because the others are unwilling is a misconception at best.

[Louis VI the Fat]

But Serbs were not good at PR.
So they lost the war.No, no, Serbs are excellent at pr. Great at censorship too. (The nationalist segment of ) postwar Europe's biggest genocidal state is still trying to re-write history, still stuck in the victim narrative that's been a mainstay ever since Milošević in 1989 stood on the Kosovo Polje and announced to two million spectators that Serbia was going to unite itself and rise against the 'Turks' again.




(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrexhus-8kw)[/I]QED (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrexhus-8kw)

Est Europa nunc unita...This thread veering of on all sorts of tangents, I might as well lodge my protest at a Latin European Anthem. We have got the greatest anthem in the world, Schiller's text is magnificent.

Europe is not about overcoming national cultural achievements. It is about creating some unity in diversity. The diversity must remain intact, should be celebrated. A German national anthem it will be, simply because one song and one poem will be elevated to the status of anthem. Considering the phenomenal Germanic achievements in poetry, and its unsurpassed musical tradition, odds were that Europe would draw from these traditions for an anthem.

[Subotan]

That said, is it really important? I think it is safe to say that Warman's assertion that the US is doing most of the work because the others are unwilling is a misconception at best.
This is the first time in a long while, maybe ever, that NATO != The United States and Friends.


I might as well lodge my protest at a Latin European Anthem. We have got the greatest anthem in the world, Schiller's text is magnificent.

Europe is not about overcoming national cultural achievements. It is about creating some unity in diversity. The diversity must remain intact, should be celebrated. A German national anthem it will be, simply because one song and one poem will be elevated to the status of anthem. Considering the phenomenal Germanic achievements in poetry, and its unsurpassed musical tradition, odds were that Europe would draw from these traditions for an anthem.
The aesthetic side of me entirely agrees - few things are as moving as An die Freude sung in the original German (Hence why I used it in the link), and it's always the first thing I point people who assert that German is an ugly language to. The idealist in me also agrees, as the celebration of German culture is the celebration of what was for centuries the cream of European culture. However, the realist in me recognises that as there are a lot of stupid people on our dear continent [By which I mean my dear island, so renowned for its sense of humour as to tell the same joke for 95 years straight] who associate German culture solely with National Socialism. Such prejudice should be educated out of our society of course, but in the meantime, selective use of the Latin wouldn't go amiss.


This thread veering of on all sorts of tangents
Embrace it!

[Brenus]

“No, no, Serbs are excellent at pr.”. No no. They are better today; I’ll give you this. But during the wars, it was a disaster. Proof is you still believe in the genocide thing, even if year after year you have to admit that they have suffered as well of very cruel treatment. And that most of the time, Serbs did not start events…

“Great at censorship too”: You should go in Serbia. Do you really thing that the guys (the only ones in the Balkans) who expelled their dictator and give him to a Court of Justice they knew was against them censure themselves?
For self-censure and refusal to see the truth look to Croatia, Bosnia, USA and EU…

I follow as much as I can Karadzic’s trial. The Court is struggling to convict the guy as all their “evidences” crumble one by one. They are now queuing witness after witness in order to achieve I don’t what as no witness can't really tell if he gave the order for the massacre.
All experts are now coming to tell what was known on the field: situation was complex indeed…
And he is guilty as hell of a lot of things…

“Milošević in 1989 stood on the Kosovo Polje and announced to two million spectators that Serbia was going to unite itself and rise against the 'Turks' again.”
We didn’t have the same translation. Mine is he told the Serb they won’t be beaten again (by Albanian mob).
In 1989, Milosevic was still a Communist and he referred to Tito’s heritage, call people “comrade” etc…
The fact that in 1991 he failed to crush Croatia and Slovenia is due to the massive desertion of the Serbian Youth who just refuse to go to fight Croats and Slovene and to save Yugoslavia by force.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Proof is you still believe in the genocide thing, even if year after year you have to admit that they have suffered as well

[...]

And that most of the time, Serbs did not start eventsSee, now this is exactly why the Serbian narrative is tempting but wrong. 'There was no genocide - because Serbia suffered as well'. And: 'It didn't happen, and besides the others started it'.


You should go in Serbia. Do you really thing that the guys (the only ones in the Balkans) who expelled their dictator and give him to a Court of Justice they knew was against them censure themselves?
For self-censure and refusal to see the truth look to Croatia, Bosnia, USA and EU…
There was severe censorship and control of the media in Serbia during the Yugoslav wars.
I agree that today's Serbia has a better track record of accepting responsibility than Croatia. Although in absolute measurement, not so great. We are still waiting for Serbia to finally disclose where they have moved and removed all their mass graves. It is getting tiresome to have to keep using satellite footage to find the mass graves one by one.




I follow as much as I can Karadzic’s trial. The Court is struggling to convict the guy as all their “evidences” crumble one by one. They are now queuing witness after witness in order to achieve I don’t what as no witness can't really tell if he gave the order for the massacre.
Victims get their day in court.
The absense of a clear 'smoking gun' is more important to his triumphalist fans than to people who realise few perpetrators leave notes around calling for mass executions and etnic cleansing. Did they ever find that direct order by Hitler to kill the Jews?


We didn’t have the same translation. Mine is he told the Serb they won’t be beaten again (by Albanian mob).
That quote is commonly attributed to the speech at the Kosovo Polje, but it was uttered some time later.


In 1989, Milosevic was still a Communist and he referred to Tito’s heritage, call people “comrade” etc…
The fact that in 1991 he failed to crush Croatia and Slovenia is due to the massive desertion of the Serbian Youth who just refuse to go to fight Croats and Slovene and to save Yugoslavia by force.
Two things: Milošević was an opportunist. With excellent sense of timing, a few months before the fall of communism in 1989 he changed from a communist to a nationalist. In the process burying Tito's multicultural Yugoslavia. I do not think Milošević in 1989 understood or strove towards most of the events of the 1990s.

Secondly, closely related, Yugoslavia's violent demise was a process. In 1991, there were still very few people in the whole of Yugoslavia who were prepared to fight any of their erstwhile countrymen. Gradually, this changed. The world is full of sectarian fanatics, everywhere. That being a given, the interesting question is why and when their hatred spills over, manages to drag down wider society in a whirlpool of sectarian agression.
It has been witnessed so many times. One day, two people are friendly neighbours. Two months later, they kill each other with their bare hands in an ethnic/linguistic/religious conflagration, over differences that were never a problem before, nor since. From Rwanda to India's and Pakistan's division to Yugoslavia's breakup, the same can be observed.

[Brenus]

“See, now this is exactly why the Serbian narrative is tempting but wrong. 'There was no genocide - because Serbia suffered as well'. And: 'It didn't happen, and besides the others started it'.”

The problem is not if the Serbian Narrative is wrong or not. The problem is if it is the right one.

The alleged “Great Serbia” dream used to describe Serbs started after the start of the various wars in Yugoslavia.
The Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia are domestic populations and not invaders. So, when the Slovene, Croats and Bosniaks decided to break free from the Yugoslav Federation (it was their right, apparently) the Serbs from the 3 of the 5 Republics composing Yugoslavia “decided” than they want to live together. And if the Croats can decide not to live with Serbs and Bosniaks, there is no reason why they should live with Croats and Bosniaks, and not to live within one country, Serbia. Of course, the administrative borders imposed by the dictator Tito should change in order to reflect this.

Due to political difficulties, Slovenia decided to go by war and organise it for the media to watch.

Having prepared weapons smaggling for few years, and Tudjman wanting his war, help by all the former (and not so-former) nazi/ustasa, the Croats started as well the Barraks war, when the new Croatian Self Defence Force surrounded the Federal Armies Barraks forcing the still Federation to negotiate. And so it happened. Then, as much as I know from personal experience, the Croats started the rebirth of their Nation in bringing back the only Independent Croatia Symbols they had in the past: The Red and White Chest of Board (inversed colours), the kuna, changed name from Milicia to Policija, all directly imported from the Ustasa Regime from 1941. Regime that killed Serbs by hundred of thousand and having a unique characteristic within the all Nazi Germany puppet states: They built their own Death Camps and add one “race” on the list to be exterminate, the Serbs.
Not only this, but their “fighter” started to wear the Ustasa symbols. I have still pictures of this.
Then, Franjo Tudjman decided to demand from the Serbs population of oath of loyalty. Strange request if you want to built a modern democracy but then…
So, if you are a Serb from Croatia, and you hear that the leader of your now Country thanking God because his wife is not Jew nor Serb, that you have to give an oath to a country of which all symbols remind you they kill your grand-Parents, do you really, really wait to see if they will finish the job?
Louis. I had the privilege to meet the last of the survivor or Glina Church (His son is a friend). It was not a game for him. It was live memory. People wearing the same symbols killed his parents. He escaped from them and the picks and axes…

You want to speak of Bosnia: Have a look on a Bosnian Banknote printed by the Bosnian Bank. You will see the same symbol than the one of the 13 SS Handchar Division (Crotian 1) (a arm with a scimitar). I still have the bank note.
You want to read the Islamic Declaration from Alija Iztebegovic? Our National Philosopher Bernard Henry Levy saw no problem with it. Well, the Serbs (and Croats and part of the Muslim) did.

But all this is not a proof that the Serbs didn’t start all of this. If fact, it give you why they should. To the question “do I wait to see if they finish the job or do I preventively strike” thing, they even didn’t answer. I would have. If let’s say, a very nasty extreme right party take power in France and put “Travail Famille, Patrie” on our flag, put a Francisque on the money and all the Police becomes Milice (reverse from Croatia) and asks all the Jews and people having Communist Grand Father to swear an oath of allegiance, I will not wait to see if they re-open the Strutthoff (Death Camp in Alsace from the WW2).

But they didn’t. When 100,000 Croats wearing Black Uniform gathered, when the Flags on officials Building had the same very look like the one on Jasenovac and Stara Gradisa, they didn’t.
They didn’t shot the first round.
In Sarajevo, Muslim extremist did the shooting at a mix marriage.
In Croatia that was Susak against Borovo Selo.

The second part: It was no genocide because they suffer as well.
It was no genocide because it was no genocide. That is it. War crimes sure, no Serbs will deny it nowadays.
The others (and I include the Western Powers in it) deny their War Crimes. I asked you before: Where is the original Serbian Population of Sebrenica, Zepa, Gorazde, Tuzla (this one was more or less protected)?

About the censorship during the war: Of course. My Serbian Translator even refused to believe that Serbs could be criminals. But I do not remember the NATO press conference as clean of any propaganda.
And all the protagonists were involve in it (see Bernard Henry Levy in Sarajevo).

“Did they ever find that direct order by Hitler to kill the Jews?” Yes, Conference of the Wannsee minutes…

“Secondly, closely related, Yugoslavia's violent demise was a process. In 1991, there were still very few people in the whole of Yugoslavia who were prepared to fight any of their erstwhile countrymen. Gradually, this changed. The world is full of sectarian fanatics, everywhere. That being a given, the interesting question is why and when their hatred spills over, manages to drag down wider society in a whirlpool of sectarian agression.
It has been witnessed so many times. One day, two people are friendly neighbours. Two months later, they kill each other with their bare hands in an ethnic/linguistic/religious conflagration, over differences that were never a problem before, nor since. From Rwanda to India's and Pakistan's division to Yugoslavia's breakup, the same can be observed.”

Agree, that is why to blame Serbs only is beyond reason.

Now, and it is valid only as much I was able to see, if you could easily buy Serbs Flags and Cetnik symbols in Belgrade, it was never a great number of Serbian (from Serbia) Volunteers in the war in Bosnia or Croatia.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Interesting, I am getting the impression by your recent comments that you are actually an American?



What you think I was, Swiss (I get a lot of that) :laugh:? Yes I am.


Hey, don't blame Croatia for the stuff they did during the war. They was just as much victims of the genocide then Serbia could be, but again you could say I'm bias since I'm 25% Croat.

[Sarmatian]

Don't argue with Louis, Brenus. You only have first-hand knowledge while he heard it all from the politicians who didn't have sexual relations with that women and who found WMD in Iraq after all.

Politicians never lie, no sir, not on their life...

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Don't argue with Louis, Brenus. You only have first-hand knowledge while he heard it all from the politicians who didn't have sexual relations with that women and who found WMD in Iraq after all.

Politicians never lie, no sir, not on their life...

That's right! I think there are Pictures of WMD in Iraq!!!!! See, Our governament wastelling the truth.... Wait, only in our dreams.

:laugh:

[Subotan]

Don't argue with Louis, Brenus. You only have first-hand knowledge while he heard it all from the politicians who didn't have sexual relations with that women and who found WMD in Iraq after all.

Politicians never lie, no sir, not on their life...
Reminds me of the joke:

Q. How many Vietnam Vets does it take to change a lightbulb?

A. You don't know! You weren't there man! YOU WEREN'T THERE

[Brenus]

“he heard it all from the politicians”
If only, he would have think. Unfortunately he heard it for journalists and media. And the fact that all of them are one day in a French suburbs trying to report what happened and the day after they are suddenly specialists of the Balkans.

I remember being in Novi Sad when Milosevic fall under the Serbian Streets (great moment of my life). I was watching the BBC and I was wondering if we were in the same country. She was speaking of tanks in the street when I was only hearing car’s horn and watching the TV channels going back to the old logo. I was drinking rakia and watching my friends finally believing that this time, he won’t come back…

[Louis VI the Fat]

Don't argue with Louis, Brenus. You only have first-hand knowledge while he heard it all from the politicians who didn't have sexual relations with that women and who found WMD in Iraq after all.

Politicians never lie, no sir, not on their life... Fair enough.

Naturally, I do expect the following two things from you from now on: you will never argue an American ever again about American politics. After all, they have first-hand knowledge. When an American tells you Sarah Palin is the world's finest intellectual, you will silently accept this superior insight.

Secondly, when two of them disagree, you shall have to assume both of them are right, however mutually exclusive their views may be, because, well, they have first-hand knowledge so can't be wrong.


Sometimes, some distance can be a blessing. One can see the lack of trust in Serbia in governmental institutions. To Serbian public opinion, politicians always lie, are always engaged in power games, in obfuscation. Truth is regarded as something everybody tries to twist, abuse for their own interests. Public trust in Serbia remains very low. The thought that others, foreign politicians, foreign media, NGO's, could be interested in the truth for the sake of truth itself is considered a naive lie - after all, everybody lies, all of the time.

If I am mistaken about events, it is not so much because of lying politicians. These hurriedly chase after public opinion, desperately trying to grasp what direction it moves in and then trying to install themselves at the head of it. Brenus is closer to the mark. Media, journalists, opinion makers - these coloured my opinion, with all their fallabilities.

[econ21]

In the 1990s, the US got involved in Bosnia and Kosovo and fought against the Serbs who used to rule the area beforehand. However, I can't think of any resources in the area of any geopolitical advantages there are in that region. So it would seem that reasons for involving ourselves in those countries was humanitarian. Yet, at the same time, there were plenty of other nasty ethnic conflicts going on. What made Bosnia and Kosovo different that they would warrant attention? Could it have been timing? That we would have some collective guilt about not interfering in Rwanda that we would try to make up for it in Bosnia? Or did the media just care more about white people than black or brown people? Proximity to NATO allies as we wouldn't want destabilization in their area? Or just plain luck on behalf of the Bosniaks, Croats, and Kosovars?

From memory, it was rather similar to what's happening in Libya in some respects. I don't think the US was driving foreign intervention, at least initially. It was more the Europeans and that's why Bosnia/Kosovo rather than somewhere in Africa - because it was in Europe. The idea of murderous conflict breaking out in hitherto peaceful Europe was horrifying to other Europeans and so they tried to do what they could to stop it.

Initially, the intervention was less partisan than you make out - UN peacekeepers on the ground, trying to get between the warring parties who were militarily stronger and freer to act than they were. It only really got teeth after Srebrenica and became like what is happening in Libya now - bombing one side. Yes, I think there was some guilt over Rwanda and Srebrenica was seen as an act of genocide that could portend more. Likewise with Kosovo and Gadhafi's advance of Benghazi - there was a fear of what might happen if preventive action was not taken. I think the motives were basically humanitarian, sparking a whole debate about "liberal interventionism" that has carried through to Gulf War II and beyond.

[Sarmatian]

Fair enough.

Naturally, I do expect the following two things from you from now on: you will never argue an American ever again about American politics. After all, they have first-hand knowledge. When an American tells you Sarah Palin is the world's finest intellectual, you will silently accept this superior insight.

Secondly, when two of them disagree, you shall have to assume both of them are right, however mutually exclusive their views may be, because, well, they have first-hand knowledge so can't be wrong.


Sometimes, some distance can be a blessing. One can see the lack of trust in Serbia in governmental institutions. To Serbian public opinion, politicians always lie, are always engaged in power games, in obfuscation. Truth is regarded as something everybody tries to twist, abuse for their own interests. Public trust in Serbia remains very low. The thought that others, foreign politicians, foreign media, NGO's, could be interested in the truth for the sake of truth itself is considered a naive lie - after all, everybody lies, all of the time.

If I am mistaken about events, it is not so much because of lying politicians. These hurriedly chase after public opinion, desperately trying to grasp what direction it moves in and then trying to install themselves at the head of it. Brenus is closer to the mark. Media, journalists, opinion makers - these coloured my opinion, with all their fallabilities.

Did I touch a nerve there? Obviously, I was joking for the most part. Indeed, just by being in Serbia doesn't automatically make me more qualified to talk about issues here than you. On the other hand, Brenus does have an advantage over you and I, he wasn't just in the same area geographically but he was employed there in a military capacity that gave him much more insight. To use your Palin example, I wouldn't say that Average Joe from America must have more knowledge on the issue than me, but if I was talking to someone who's from the same party, who met Palin a couple of times, who knows how stuff works from the inside, I'd definitely be willing to pay much closer attention to what he has to say about Palin.

To add to the second part, all politicans lie Louis. All of them are involved in power games, they are all balancing within the confinements of different interest and pressure groups and public opinion is just one of them. At least that's my opinion. Maybe indeed I am too cynical, maybe you are too naive...

[Louis VI the Fat]

The problem is not if the Serbian Narrative is wrong or not. The problem is if it is the right one.See, that quote sums up former Yugoslavia. :grin:


I don't place the blame solely on Serbia. In fact, I don't give a penny for the others. Croatia - a state that reverted back to the only independent Croatia it knew, that of the Hitler puppet state. Today still a neofascist paradise, where mass murderers from both the 1940s and 1990s are revered as patriotic heroes. The Bosniaks - Mujahedeen flying back and forth from the Afhan to the Bosnian hills. Kosovo - Islamomobsters, a failed state that will cause centuries of problems for Europe. Today more than half the population is unemployed, European subsidies and organised crime the main sources of income. Macedonia - a madhouse, an Albanian nursery.
Thank God we made Greece an EU member, so that it has developed itself into a stable, non-corrupt, thriving beacon of European progress....


But still...
Look at all that stuff you posted. It is all so puerile, so pathetic, so pointlessly belligerent. If one could go back in time to 1989, and transport the guys from 2011 4chan over there and hand them the keys of Yugolsavia, then the breakup and wars of the 1990s is what you'd get. Little military parades. Provocations. Dehumanisation of the others. Ancient histories invoked. Neighbours described as agents of some force out to destroy the life of your children. Accused of being Great-Turks, or Great-Serbians, or Croatian Ustazas. To a large extent, these were self-fullfilling prophecies. An self-reinforcing escalation. There's a Muslim/Serbian/Fascist plot to overthrow your side, so you will yourself descent into sectarianism of your group. Then ten years later, you wonder what it was all about anyway, and you remember your own family and friends consisted to a large extent of the demonised others.

It is like a shark feeding frenzy. The eyes go blank, they pick up on each other's agression, they all know they have to be more aggressive than the others to ensure their share. Madness ensues. Then the dust settles again. It is a sad mechanism.



On the other hand, Brenus does have an advantage over you and I, he wasn't just in the same area geographically but he was employed there in a military capacity that gave him much more insight

To add to the second part, all politicans lie Louis. All of them are involved in power games, they are all balancing within the confinements of different interest and pressure groups and public opinion is just one of them. At least that's my opinion. Maybe indeed I am too cynical, maybe you are too naive... Brenus is God.

About the politicians. I don't think you are too cynical or I'm too naive. I don't trust them more. I just think they are more incompetent than you do. In a broadly democratic states power is shared between many. Few can deliberately steer the state, never mind the country, towards their own goals. That takes a lot of effort, like trying to steer an oil tanker off course. Usually outside of the scope of the individual politician.
The best they can hope for is to be photographed holding the steering wheel, trying to convince people that they are at the helm, plotting the course. Certainly they themselves think they do. Most of the rest of society is rather less convinced of that.

[Brenus]

“Brenus is God.” Ah, finally…

[Louis VI the Fat]

“Brenus is God.” Ah, finally…I shall now proceed to open a thread wherein I condemn you for stealing babies, insist that your removal from public institutions is necessary for our freedom, and to state exact rules of which part of their bodies your women must leave uncovered.
I think I'll also sneak in somewhere how you and your followers are probably homosexuals.

[Brenus]

“I shall now proceed to open a thread wherein I condemn you for stealing babies, insist that your removal from public institutions is necessary for our freedom, and to state exact rules of which part of their bodies your women must leave uncovered.
I think I'll also sneak in somewhere how you and your followers are probably homosexuals.”
Mnfff, not the first time than a God would be betrayed by his prophet!!!

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

See, that quote sums up former Yugoslavia. :grin:


I don't place the blame solely on Serbia. In fact, I don't give a penny for the others. Croatia - a state that reverted back to the only independent Croatia it knew, that of the Hitler puppet state. Today still a neofascist paradise, where mass murderers from both the 1940s and 1990s are revered as patriotic heroes. The Bosniaks - Mujahedeen flying back and forth from the Afhan to the Bosnian hills. Kosovo - Islamomobsters, a failed state that will cause centuries of problems for Europe. Today more than half the population is unemployed, European subsidies and organised crime the main sources of income. Macedonia - a madhouse, an Albanian nursery.
Thank God we made Greece an EU member, so that it has developed itself into a stable, non-corrupt, thriving beacon of European progress....


But still...
Look at all that stuff you posted. It is all so puerile, so pathetic, so pointlessly belligerent. If one could go back in time to 1989, and transport the guys from 2011 4chan over there and hand them the keys of Yugolsavia, then the breakup and wars of the 1990s is what you'd get. Little military parades. Provocations. Dehumanisation of the others. Ancient histories invoked. Neighbours described as agents of some force out to destroy the life of your children. Accused of being Great-Turks, or Great-Serbians, or Croatian Ustazas. To a large extent, these were self-fullfilling prophecies. An self-reinforcing escalation. There's a Muslim/Serbian/Fascist plot to overthrow your side, so you will yourself descent into sectarianism of your group. Then ten years later, you wonder what it was all about anyway, and you remember your own family and friends consisted to a large extent of the demonised others.

It is like a shark feeding frenzy. The eyes go blank, they pick up on each other's agression, they all know they have to be more aggressive than the others to ensure their share. Madness ensues. Then the dust settles again. It is a sad mechanism.


Brenus is God.

About the politicians. I don't think you are too cynical or I'm too naive. I don't trust them more. I just think they are more incompetent than you do. In a broadly democratic states power is shared between many. Few can deliberately steer the state, never mind the country, towards their own goals. That takes a lot of effort, like trying to steer an oil tanker off course. Usually outside of the scope of the individual politician.
The best they can hope for is to be photographed holding the steering wheel, trying to convince people that they are at the helm, plotting the course. Certainly they themselves think they do. Most of the rest of society is rather less convinced of that.

But every one of those nations including Serbia treats their mass murderuders like heroes and blame us Americans and our great (:laugh:) European friends for ruining them when it is themselves to blame.

[Subotan]

Your point is?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Whatever.

To return to the topic. Why is it the bolloxness of the other parties involved touted around like the Holy Grail of sectarianism. So the Bosniaks made a banknote with some offensive ancient symbol. So what? What entitlement does one derive from it? Why rape thousands of their women over what?

If you speak to the Nazi, the first thing he wants to talk about is all the horrible things people did to Germany. 'We needed to defend ourselves...don't you know the Poles and the Czechs and the French and the Jews and the Communists and blahblah'.
Talk to the Romanian Nazi, and he will try to convince you with detailed accounts of how Romanian troops were pelted with pebbles when passing through a Jewish village twenty years earlier.
Speak to a North Irish sectarian, and he will insist on going over each terrorist events of forty years ago and some two centuries ago and five centuries ago etc.

Each time, the idea is that 'if only the world would know...if only they would understand how sordid those people were...' There's genuine frustration and anger that the world just doesn't know what is going on. Genuine believe that unless one knows about each and every past transgression, one just does not know what one is talking about.


But we do know. The world does know. We just disagree that you should go foaming at the mouth and kill eight thousand people over it.

[Subotan]

It's important that the pains which said nation has had to endure are treated as being totally unique. Take Korean nationalism for example, which is based on the joint myths of a completely homogeneous population on the peninsula, and the universal suffering inflicted upon all Koreans by the Japanese. Nevermind that class divisions in pre-1910 Korea were positively feudal, nevermind that quite a lot of Koreans collaborated with the Japanese, nevermind that living standards rose under the Japanese - the Korean national myth is one of a unique and total suffering by all Koreans. Barely any other country, such as Taiwan, or China, or the Philippines or Vietnam, or Malaya, or Indonesia or Burma gain more than a flicker of recognition from Korean nationalists, and nations under non-Japanese colonial rule are of course never mentioned. One would think that Korea was the only country to ever be colonised ever to listen to them.

[Brenus]

“So the Bosniaks made a banknote with some offensive ancient symbol. So what? What entitlement does one derive from it? Why rape thousands of their women over what?”
So What? Well, it was not a symbol from Ancient Rome, it was the very actual SS division that killed thousands of their parents/grand Parents. The Nazi Symbols are still not allowed in France.
“Rape of thousands”, this charge is abandoned even at The Hague. One man was sentenced for this because he forced 4 women in prostitution.
I agree that it is a Human Right Abuse and that all pimps should be prosecuted under “slavery” charges, but the so-called “systematic” rapes were a campaign organised on not nothing, but a huge exaggeration based on one village then replicated on the all population.
Sorry Louis, this was a pure lie.

About Nazi and damage they did to Germany, I always said that the major crime of Milosevic was against the Serbs as he is responsible with his politic of their ethnic cleansing with his accomplice Tudjman.

And you started again. You do like if the Serbs started it. They didn’t.

The Socialist Yugoslavia was not a democracy, and certainly needed a democratisation process. However, the ones who started wars for Nationalistic purposes were not the Serbs. The ones who shot the first round were not the Serbs, and this is a fact that even Carla Del Ponte had to admit.
Then what do you do Louis? Are you waiting to see if the guys identifying themselves as Nazi are really Nazi and start to finish the job left? “Thanks God my wife is not Jews nor Serbs”, “What to do with the Serbs? Sending them on the Moon”, these were Tudjman’s words. If you are a Serb, will you wait to be sent to the moon? So to take weapons was a think I would do.
Then, thinks accelerate, and the few attempts by the Croatian State to take control by force instead of negotiating just put all the things on motion…

“We just disagree that you should go foaming at the mouth and kill eight thousand people over it.” Oh, no, we agree on this. Not on the actual figure, but on the fact you don’t kill prisoners of war. One or thousands, it is all the same for me, and it is a war crime.
However, it look that to kill 30 injured Yugoslav Soldiers in Sarajevo is not.
Or to slaughter few dozen Serbian elderly people in the villages surrounding Srebrenica is not.
Or to organise a Pogrom against the Serbs in Kosovo in allowed… Or an ethnic cleansing in Croatia…

I, against all odds, try to speak for the Serbs, not because they are innocent, but because nobody wants to hear what they have to say.
They were as stupid than the others and didn’t do the right thing and at the end lost their lives and properties they wanted to protect.
Their crimes are real and are not denied by them. And no, their heroes are not Milosevic and Karadzic.
The War Criminals Heroes are in the other sides. Tudman and Gotivina are Croatian Heroes. Izetbegovic is a Bosniak Heroe, as Naser Oric…

Have to go to work, to be continued…

[Louis VI the Fat]

“So the Bosniaks made a banknote with some offensive ancient symbol. So what? What entitlement does one derive from it? Why rape thousands of their women over what?”
So What? Well, it was not a symbol from Ancient Rome, it was the very actual SS division that killed thousands of their parents/grand Parents. The Nazi Symbols are still not allowed in France.Again: so what?

So what if some useless nationalists put a nazi symbol on their banknote. Why wage a war over it. That makes you just as silly as them. I think we touch here on the very centre of my criticism over the actors in the Yugoslav war: what a bunch of petty useless criminals, killing so many, destroying so much, over so very little.

What makes you thnk they are excused, rather than deserving of even more scorn, by pointing out that 'the others' used nationalist provocations.


I always said that the major crime of Milosevic was against the Serbs as he is responsible with his politic of their ethnic cleansing with his accomplice Tudjman.
No, that is not how it works. Too many have died, lost everything, to say that Milošević main crimes consisted in being ultimately resonsible for a bacjklash against Serbia. His main crime is supporting aggressive wars against the other former Yugoslavian states.

[Louis VI the Fat]

“Rape of thousands”, this charge is abandoned even at The Hague. One man was sentenced for this because he forced 4 women in prostitution.No!


Serbian propaganda. Rape was a systematic instrument of terror and war. Many have been convicted. Most perpetrators however are completely off the hook, living happily in Serbia.


The women are here. Their testimonies are there. It is bitter to see them described as 'prostitutes'. They are neither prostitutes nor comfort girls nor any other euphemism. They are women who were raped.

[Sarmatian]

Again: so what?

So what if some useless nationalists put a nazi symbol on their banknote.

In a perfect world, nothing. You get to laugh to the fools who did it. When in it is done as a part of the rhetoric that was used 45 years ago after which your parents were murdered or used as slaves, your homes burned and your family starved, you tend not to be so dismissive... People were genuinely afraid, that's why it was so easy for leaders to manipulate them.

[Brenus]

“Rape of thousands”, this charge is abandoned even at The Hague. One man was sentenced for this because he forced 4 women in prostitution.
No!
Serbian propaganda. Rape was a systematic instrument of terror and war. Many have been convicted. Most perpetrators however are completely off the hook, living happily in Serbia.
The women are here. Their testimonies are there. It is bitter to see them described as 'prostitutes'. They are neither prostitutes nor comfort girls nor any other euphemism. They are women who were raped.

Nato propaganda.
Rapes did happened.
But it was supposed to be an organised campaign. Where are the proofs? None.
Where are the 80 000 women systematically raped and more where are the kids they were supposed to be obliged to carry as the rapist kept them long enought they couldn't have abvortion?
I lived for around 6 years, including in Bosnia. I couldn't find them (Sarajevo, Tuzla, Zenica, Gorazde), nor the ones who were anti-Serbs.
I remember the campaign.

Ok, I am at work...
To be continued

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Your point is?

I made my point.


“Rape of thousands”, this charge is abandoned even at The Hague. One man was sentenced for this because he forced 4 women in prostitution.
No!
Serbian propaganda. Rape was a systematic instrument of terror and war. Many have been convicted. Most perpetrators however are completely off the hook, living happily in Serbia.
The women are here. Their testimonies are there. It is bitter to see them described as 'prostitutes'. They are neither prostitutes nor comfort girls nor any other euphemism. They are women who were raped.

Nato propaganda.
Rapes did happened.
But it was supposed to be an organised campaign. Where are the proofs? None.
Where are the 80 000 women systematically raped and more where are the kids they were supposed to be obliged to carry as the rapist kept them long enought they couldn't have abvortion?
I lived for around 6 years, including in Bosnia. I couldn't find them (Sarajevo, Tuzla, Zenica, Gorazde), nor the ones who were anti-Serbs.
I remember the campaign.

Ok, I am at work...
To be continued

You would not happen to be Serbian would you? :juggle2::juggle2:

[Sarmatian]

I made my point.



You would not happen to be Serbian would you? :juggle2::juggle2:

Not just a Serbian, he's an ultra-nationalist Serbian, with a long sharp beard, two rusty spoons attached to his belt, ensuring extremely long and painful death to anyone who opposes him. Don't cross him.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Not just a Serbian, he's an ultra-nationalist Serbian, with a long sharp beard, two rusty spoons attached to his belt, ensuring extremely long and painful death to anyone who opposes him. Don't cross him.



:laugh:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Nato propaganda.
Rapes did happened.
But it was supposed to be an organised campaign. Where are the proofs? None.
Where are the 80 000 women systematically raped and more where are the kids they were supposed to be obliged to carry as the rapist kept them long enought they couldn't have abvortion?
I lived for around 6 years, including in Bosnia. I couldn't find them (Sarajevo, Tuzla, Zenica, Gorazde), nor the ones who were anti-Serbs.
I remember the campaign.

Ok, I am at work...
To be continuedAh, no...

Please don't get too caught up in defending Serbia, Brenus. Rape was an instrument of war, there are many victims, it was endemic and systematic. It is inconsequential, and perhaps a tad insensitive, to tout around as a great victory that no central command structure that coordinated every rape by a Serb paramilitary has been found. Because that is not how it works.

It reminds of the standard conversation with Serb denialists:
'8000 men were murdered'
'Nonsense! Propaganda'
'No, our testimonies show 8000 men were murdered'
'Nonsense! Lies!'
'We have used satellite footage to find and unearth the mass graves. Behold the 7950 bodies we've exhumed thus far.'
'See, I told you you have been telling lies. Even after fifteen years with all your fancy equipment apparantly you still are incapable of showing the world those 8000 alleged bodies!!'



Try this, the Observatoire international des violences sexuelles dans les conflits armés (http://www.viol-tactique-de-guerre.org/).

Le Monde, last month: http://stoprapenow.org/uploads/files/lemondemagazine_bosnie.pdf

[Subotan]

I made my point.
Whatever.


Ah, no...

Please don't get too caught up in defending Serbia, Brenus. Rape was an instrument of war, there are many victims, it was endemic and systematic. It is inconsequential, and perhaps a tad insensitive, to tout around as a great victory that no central command structure that coordinated every rape by a Serb paramilitary has been found. Because that is not how it works.
It's one thing to prove that rape was ordered by high command for use as a weapon of war; another entirely to prove that it was merely tolerated. There is conclusive evidence all over the Balkans that rape was committed frequently by both Chetnik scum and other bigoted murderers, and to argue otherwise is indefensible.

[Brenus]

Well, Louis, I have found myself always in defending Serbia as when I try to tell what I think is truer I am labelled Pro Serb. Nothing new as when the Head of Belgrade UNHCR went to plead for a partial lifting of sanctions during winter time for Serbia, he was “accused” to be on Milosevic’s payroll.

The problem I have is this debate is each time I think I succeed to show that the Serbs didn’t initiate the war, somebody tell me it doesn’t matter.
Well it does.
The fact that Germany invaded Belgium in 1914 does matter. The fact that France bans burka does matter.
But the fact that the Serbs were the first victims doesn’t, the fact that their murderers were wearing uniforms from Nazi criminals and the fact that they prepared for the war before doesn’t matter.
So what? They were buying weapons so what? They were saying they will kill the Serbs, so what?
Hitler wrote he would kill the Jews. So what?

I will not engage on the bodies count as they vary even in the Anti Serbs camp. I did it before and nothing changed.

Now, Simone Veil, who can’t be under suspicion of sympathy for Nazi like murderers, denounced the “systematic” rape campaign due the lack of relations between the story and the number of supporting evidence.

I have enough to be held hostage by good feelings and the victimisation process. You can’t question (well, I won’t) ask a guy who tell that the Serbs kill 50 members of his family to give the name, do you? But I can’t give you 50 names of my family, and we were 6 children.

Le Monde, the Newspaper that had Florence Hartmann and Remy Ourdan as journalists. The same Florence Hartmann who leaked documents from The Hague where she was working as prosecutor, and Ourdan, the guy who described a situation in the region where I was working without any even tiny link with the reality. Lies.
I read the interview he has done from a Serb from Vukovar. What he wrote so so far from what the guy had said than my translator (who had translated for him) refused to read it to the guy.

Nice document: In Yugoslavia the Muslim women had the same shame than any women in an atheist country about rape.
I am fed-up of this racism, journalist doing cheap job as if the Muslim woman were a special case. Rape is rape, and to have a baby from a rape is enough, no need to add this kind of ….
It reminds me a trick to attract pity for beggars. You put sugar on you arm near a wound and the flies come…
This is this kind of journalism. I am too harsh, perhaps, they have to feed their family as well, and sell the paper.

What we know is from the Commission of Tadeuz Mazowiesky (not really pro-Serb, was he?) a figure of 2,400 victims, Muslims, Serbs and Croats.

And now, it time to go to bed.