EBOT June 2011 - MP EDU - Feedback needed.

[gamegeek2]

So, as you all know, Vartan has recently revived the old EB Online Tournaments. He has given me permission to create a new multiplayer EDU for EB 1.2, for use in online play.

This was the result: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=A0ANCFY6

Please read the documentation or look in the actual EDU itself to examine it. People intimately familiar with the EDU, I definitely want some feedback. Thank you.

Approximately 95% of changes have been documented. There were several tweaks that fall along the line of what the others were, that were not recorded. All major changes in stats have been fully documented (i.e. melee shortsword lethality raised to 0.15).

REMEMBER IT WILL BE UNDER UPDATE UNTIL MAY 22ND.

One important note: the new stats are designed so that pre-Marian Romans can use 36k without being OP

[Lazy O]

@Vartan; Did you contact the guy I told you about?

[vartan]

@Vartan; Did you contact the guy I told you about?
The Sith member in RCC? If so, why? what for?

P.S. Don't mind my memory. I have a problem.

[Lazy O]

Yes, ask him to have a look. Hes fairly experienced wit hthis EDU stuff

[The Celtic Viking]

I'm always sceptical when it comes to changing the actual stats of units. After all, they were set and balanced by the team already using some special formula. Messing with it can mess up the balance, and if the reason for this is only to remove the need for pre-marian romans to use less than 36k, then this would be taking the long, dark road with orcs, goblins and Michael Moore when there's a sunny and easy path offering you promiscuous women, beer and me that you could take.

I'm talking of course of increasing the cost of the Roman units. This is not just easier, it's downright sensible, as they've been given a discount for purely strategic reasons, reasons that shouldn't effect single battles such as MP ones. The problem, of course, is that I don't know how big the discount is, or for which units exactly it operates on (for example, is it just Roman units, or does it effect italian allies as well?). That's a fair criticism, but as a member of the EB team, if you don't know the answer to this already, it shouldn't be too difficult for you to find out. Even if you couldn't do this, it's not as if changing the stats of other factions' units would or even could be exact either, so the criticism would be working both ways.

[Lazy O]

They were set up for use in a single player game. I for one, support this EDU even though I havent seen it, for the single reason that people recognized that stats cant be the same for SP and MP.

And regarding roman units, I consider their price fair, but the fact that they have more units in cohorts is stupid. Just remove that and bring them back to normal, ALL infantry units (im not talking levy and elites) should be a standard size, because this is tactical play, the reasons for there being some units more than others is strategic, and should not affect MP. And please dont increase the cost of the Romans, theyre too weak. Their spammability ( I MADE A WORD) I guess is the only protection from 12 units of cavalry.

[The Celtic Viking]

They were set up for use in a single player game. I for one, support this EDU even though I havent seen it, for the single reason that people recognized that stats cant be the same for SP and MP.

Why not?


And regarding roman units, I consider their price fair, but the fact that they have more units in cohorts is stupid. Just remove that and bring them back to normal, ALL infantry units (im not talking levy and elites) should be a standard size, because this is tactical play, the reasons for there being some units more than others is strategic, and should not affect MP.

First of all, unit size is not a strategic thing, for obvious reasons.

Secondly, their price isn't fair at all because they are given a discount that's for purely SP campaign reasons, not MP. For pre-marian units, this has already been agreed: the limit stating that they can't use the full 36k is there pricisely because their cheapness otherwise makes them OP.

All in all, I don't think we need to change anything. I'm happy with the stats as they are, I'm fine with the restrictions as are. What I am saying here, though, is that if you want to change the edu to remove the <36k limit for pre-marian romans, the natural way to go is to increase the cost of the Roman units, not to start tinkering with other factions' units.

[gamegeek2]

Post Marian units retain their discount cost. Hastati and Cohors Reformata have stats that make sense cost-wise, now.

Post Marian units actually got better as shortsword lethality was increased to 0.15 for units that use shortswords a lot in melee.

That was far from the only reason, CV. There were lots of other units that simply did not have balanced stats at all, which made them nearly useless.

-Overhand spear cavalry, particularly the Germanic ones. Germanic light horsemen were historically very good and highly praised for their fighting ability despite their simple equipment.
-Germanic "retainer" units seem to have been styled as large-size troops, in reality they were more of a small cadre of highly loyal soldiers. Thus they lost numbers, got higher costs, and got much better stats overall.
-The cost of falcatae/kopides was actually higher than that of axes/maces, but they were weaker. They are now approximately equal in strength.
-Elite infantry cost far too much, their base cost was reduced so on average elite infantry cost about 200 mnai less now. It's not much of a reduction but it's something.
-Elite cavalry had a similar base cost reduction, but it was smaller.
-Several Arabian units had a few boosts.
-Phalanxes had their ridiculous shield stats lowered to 2, which makes sense given the small size of their shields; now mass arrows may have some effect on them. They had a corresponding increase in defense skill. Pike attack was also slightly reduced.

Of course there were other important changes but I won't discuss them all.

[Burebista]

Just a question : is it possible to add some units to the roster of a faction? Such as some melee only cav for Sauromatae?

I haven't seen the new EDU but just from the top of my head the main issues i had with the old EDU was lusotannan elite units on Carthage roster , Melee cav on Sauros , cheapness of romans , some scythian mercs for the Getai and some cheaper HA for Baktria (less than 1800 as dahae are too much).

[gamegeek2]

Dahae did have cost reduced, and Baktrioi Hippotoxotai got a makeover as well. Pre-Marian romans became more expensive. Lusotanaan native elites not usable by Carthage were made better.

For CV, the Gallic player, here are the major Celtic changes:

-Arjos were reduced to 60 men (they were way OP at 80), several other changes to them, cost reduced to 1811
-Carnute Cingetos got better
-Gaesatae did not receive the elite inf cost reduction but got a more devastating javelin attack
-Celto-Germanic Cav and Leuce Epos received better javelin attacks
-Brihentin got better defense
-Remi Mairepos got better charge

Boii infantry are set to regain their 12 attack, also.

[Lazy O]

Me liking what gamegeek saying :)

@Viking; Because its different when testing is done against AI and different when 2 real brains fight.

[vartan]

Celtic Viking, I've been looking for a re-haul of the EDU specifically for MP purposes since Day 1. Since the first battles I recall in '09 one could see how the SP battle tendencies showed up in MP arena due to our being used to those set of stats. MP was not as distinct a genre then.

P.S. gamegeek, I know you're updating the EDU, but when do you suppose a solid release could be made? I'm asking for archival purposes. So for instance, the two replay archives you see on the website (2010 July and August) can be played back using the current v1.1 of the EBO MP EDU. When I put up a v1.2 (more like a v2.0 due to it being a re-haul), I make a note that indicates people need to install the older version of MP EDU in order to view them correctly. So for that reason, if you suppose you might work into June, we could use v1.1 for June, then start with v2.0 for July onwards. Downside will be that we won't get the feedback we could use from June games. Definitely want to give people a different ballgame to work with this year, though, and July is the big season, so lemme know.

[Lazy O]

Which is the main mistake made by CA, rendering barbarian factions (scythia,germany,briton aside) useless. And even germany is mostly only used as a hard counter to rome. With thrace being a "minor" faction that cant compete with the rest, Rome being outclassed by nearly every faction with Catas, 10 archers or chariots, and Carthage only good when you want a balanced matchup against macedon, with Egypt the magic superfaction at the top of the ladder.

[gamegeek2]

I should have a final version before June arrives.

EDIT: UPDATED!

EDIT: UPDATED AGAIN!

[vartan]

I should have a final version before June arrives.
Let's hope so. At least three to five days for people to download the final version from the website before the first of June.

[The Celtic Viking]

For CV, the Gallic player, here are the major Celtic changes:

-Arjos were reduced to 60 men (they were way OP at 80), several other changes to them, cost reduced to 1811

I don't like this at all. The reason why you'd use them is because, unlike other Gallic elites, these are affordable and not too few in numbers (though of course not quite as skilled as, say, the Solduros). This made them them one of the few Gallic elites actually worth using. With worse stats and this low numbers, this reason is now gone.

In fact, they're useless now, as for 300 mnai more, you get the more-numerous-and-almost-the-same-stats Neitos, and for 100 mnai more (than the Arjos, I mean) you get Mori Gaesum, both of which defeats the Arjos. Neitos even does this easily without using its javelins, and the Mori Gaesum has better morale than both.


-Carnute Cingetos got better

Slightly so, but I still don't think they're worth their cost.


-Gaesatae did not receive the elite inf cost reduction but got a more devastating javelin attack

They also, according to your documentation, got a higher sword attack, which surprises me. I mean, if it's a Gallic unit you can argue to be overpowered, then IMO that would be the Gaesatae, not the Arjos.


Leuce Epos received better javelin attacks

But shorter range, fewer javelins and less armour, yet still the same cost. I don't think this nerfing is justified; they were good but certainly not OP.

[gamegeek2]

Well according to the EB stat system, i actually should give them their armour back.

EDIT: Discrepancy found. I accidentally had costed the Arjos too much. This has been resolved. They retain their numbers reduction but their cost has been lowered to 1569 mnai.

The reasoning behind this is that
a) I don't want noble, chain-armed infantry to be a large-sized unit. It doesn't make sense.
b) Now they sort of fill their job as a "cheap elite" better - as elites are only supposed to have 60 men.
c) It offers an interesting quandary to the Arverni player, as Bataroas and Arjos are approximately the same cost now - which one to get another of?

The Gaesatae did not receive a cost reduction. They did get additional sword attack and javelin strength but I don't think this makes up for a 200 mnai cost reduction. But I may yet reconsider.

[Burebista]

Don't forget Armenia. this faction is so in need of a price rehaul , it almost screams for help. i mean , noone plays it , for God's sake.

[gamegeek2]

Armenia did get some help, fo sho.

UPDATED. Elite infantry have been given yet more bonuses...though you could say, their bonuses were standardized.

[vartan]

Don't forget Armenia. this faction is so in need of a price rehaul , it almost screams for help. i mean , noone plays it , for God's sake.
Yours truly was the Armenian representative (true no matter how you interpret that!) during the only tournament I played in back in July 2009. Granted, I won just as many as I lost. But all my mistakes notwithstanding, I enjoyed the challenge. It taught me much!

Armenia did get some help, fo sho.

UPDATED. Elite infantry have been given yet more bonuses...though you could say, their bonuses were standardized.
Like a commy bonus? Haha, keep it up gg!

[Lazy O]

I dont think that was a joke

[Lazy O]

Small thought from RS2; Why not make every unit the same unit size, WITH adjustments to cost??? The number of soldiers balances itself out since the cost is increased/decreased. I know there wont be enough time to do this for this tourney, but is the idea acceptable?

[Burebista]

Small thought from RS2; Why not make every unit the same unit size, WITH adjustments to cost??? The number of soldiers balances itself out since the cost is increased/decreased. I know there wont be enough time to do this for this tourney, but is the idea acceptable?

NO! plz , no! RS2 bored the heck out of me in 2 weeks. I love EB multiplayer , just some minor fixes which i mentioned before , and it's great.

[vartan]

Small thought from RS2; Why not make every unit the same unit size, WITH adjustments to cost??? The number of soldiers balances itself out since the cost is increased/decreased. I know there wont be enough time to do this for this tourney, but is the idea acceptable?
More communism?

Sorry I'm having a good day.

[Mr. Stuka]

More communism?



No, then they'd all have the same cost...and they'd all be the same unit.

[gamegeek2]

Nah, not quite. It'd look more like this:

Communist Army

1 Leaders of the Party, 9 chevrons
1 Intelligentsia, 6 chevrons
3 Party Members, 3 chevrons
15 Proletariat/Peasants

[vartan]

GG knows his business, lol. And the EDU keeps churning.

[LusitanianWolf]

I will be testing your EDU this afternoon but until then:



-Phalanxes had their ridiculous shield stats lowered to 2, which makes sense given the small size of their shields; now mass arrows may have some effect on them. They had a corresponding increase in defense skill. Pike attack was also slightly reduced.

Of course there were other important changes but I won't discuss them all.
Wont that make them even more über in non phalanx melee? its a bit ankward to see klerunchoi phalangitai being surrounded by melee specialists including clubmans, retainers and werewolves and still winning the fight....


I propose that Iosatae (? celtic slingers) should be added to Sweboz EDU, they are very abundant and usefull in the campain and would give a bit more flexibility to the Sweboz armies since they dont have any on their own in EB1 and the only have one usefull ranged unit (Medininkas).



Germanic "retainer" units seem to have been styled as large-size troops, in reality they were more of a small cadre of highly loyal soldiers. Thus they lost numbers, got higher costs, and got much better stats overall.
The Thegnoz Drugule (heavy infantry) or only the bodyguards? That would make the Sweboz even more vulnerable to missiles and with only Speutagardaz to rely as armoured line infantary (wich arent so usefull in most situations, at least in my experience)...

[The Celtic Viking]

Does anyone else see the irony in Vartan calling parts of these changes "communism", and the only one who opposes them is the guy with Karl Marx in his sig? ~;)

Note, I'm not against all changes. For example, I agree that cavalry using spears overhand need a little improvement, as they're not up to snuff. In other words, don't take that joke too seriously, mmkay? ~:)


The reasoning behind this is that
a) I don't want noble, chain-armed infantry to be a large-sized unit. It doesn't make sense.
b) Now they sort of fill their job as a "cheap elite" better - as elites are only supposed to have 60 men.

They were never full elites, mind you - their fighting skill wasn't actually any better than that of the Neitos, who are regular soldiers fitted with chain mail. What the Arjos had on the Neitos was simply +1 shield and +2 morale, as well as a tighter formation. What you've done is to lower their numbers and lower their morale, so how can they be called "elite" now? They're low-numbered regulars - which motivates your third point:


c) It offers an interesting quandary to the Arverni player, as Bataroas and Arjos are approximately the same cost now - which one to get another of?

You yourself invites the Arverni player to compare them with Bataroas. But, tell me, is a supposedly elite unit really supposed to compete with regulars for a place in the army?

[gamegeek2]

Look, the real point is that noble infantry should not have 120 men. (Saba Noble infantry also seem to represent the regulars of the Sabaean infantry which are not depicted).

Also Arjos got their morale restored. Seems I didn't mean to change that as it was not included in the documentation, I would've remembered for this unit since there has been a debate over it.


The Thegnoz Drugule (heavy infantry) or only the bodyguards? That would make the Sweboz even more vulnerable to missiles and with only Speutagardaz to rely as armoured line infantary (wich arent so usefull in most situations, at least in my experience)...

Um no, this means the Dugundiz, etc. which got shield boosts as well to represent their tight, protective shieldwall formations. Sloxonez, which were historically good quality shock troopers, also got a boost. I am considering a further +1 defense for these units.

Good point on the Iaosatae. The Sweboz historically had slingers anyways. They have been added now.

[Lazy O]

Its fun to make people flip :D

[The Celtic Viking]

Good on the morale thing, which by the way was in the documentation (which is where I picked up on it in the first place - you did the same to the Galatikoi Kuarothoroi, just so you know in case theirs should be fixed as well). Though I still disagree, it's easier to swallow now, at least. I mean, 120 men (because they were 160 pre-change ~;)) would be fine, but then I think they should be given a little better stats. As I said, they shouldn't compete with regulars for a place in the army, and as is, you'll be choosing Neitos for "elites", and Arjos acting more as a possible regular, which isn't quite right IMO.

[LusitanianWolf]

--- Sloxonez, Dugunthiz, and Dugunthiz Hadjiska ---

-Numbers decreased to 80 men
- +1 Attack, +3 Defense Skill
-Dugunthiz morale increased from 11 to 15, range increased to 36.8, cost increased from 1233 to 1484
-Dugunthiz Hadjiska morale increased from 13 to 16, range increased to 38.5, cost increased from 1357 to 1583
-Sloxones morale increased from 12 to 16, range increased to 36.8, cost increased from 1214 to 1469

NOTE: Stats changed to reflect high-quality retainer or shock infantry status of these units

Dugunthiz Hattisku (Chatti spearman) still have 100 men with the newer stats.



Edit: I'm realy enjoying the new changes until now! Ridonez are now a force to be recognized, I usualy dont use cavalry as Sweboz but I think I'm going to start using!
Now to some MP!

[gamegeek2]

I have just fixed this with an update.

[gamegeek2]

EDIT: Sorry for Double Post.

Bataroas = Standard Sword/Jav line infantry
Neitos = Heavy Sword/Jav line infantry
Arjos = Heavy Noble infantry
Solduros = Heavy, near-unbreakable elites

[gamegeek2]

Played 5 or 6 test games with LusitanianWolf, to great success for both my personal record and that of the new EDU.

Changes have gone over well so far, we did discover that Pezhetairoi morale was too high. They would not surrender even when surrounded, until they were below 120 men. That's not horrible but still too long, only Hysteroi and better should last that long.

BTW also got a good example of how to defeat Phalanxes with Sweboz (I used them because it's harder with them than with Gauls since they don't have chariots to disrupt formations). LusoWolf should have it saved.

EDIT: Found it - http://www.mediafire.com/?mk98l492ukhg489

[vartan]

One important note: the new stats are designed so that pre-Marian Romans can use 36k without being OP
Cheers. Do we still need to indicate elite pre-Marian units and place limits on how many you can get?

[gamegeek2]

EDIT: NVM NOT NECESSARY.

[vartan]

I intend to make a single player version of this, with all unit ownership adusted to the SP version, able to be used in campaign, but mainly for replay viewing.
We talked about this after you posted this. You hadn't seen the MP load replay mod. But if people want their SP unit stats to keep up with the newest developments in MP (think DNA mutations for the better), then that'd be cool for them. I'm guessing only doing stat value changes wouldn't ruin save games, right? So people could keep updating their EDU without restarting campaigns.

[gamegeek2]

UPDATED!

EDIT: UPDATED AGAIN!

Major changes:

-Pezhetairoi morale decreased to 13.
-Lanceari made an elite unit riding unarmoured horses.
-Curisi get better defense and lethality, increased cost.

[Burebista]

Just checked out the documentation. Rly good job so far.

Was thinking you still need to add some melee only cav to sauro so they have a little versatility.

[gamegeek2]

Trust me, Sauro are fine.

[LusitanianWolf]

Test time!
I'll miss the lanceari horsies but I gess it fits Lusos better that way.



Was thinking you still need to add some melee only cav to sauro so they have a little versatility.

Trust me, Sauro are fine.
Trust him, Sauro are fine :sweatdrop:

What melee cavalry could be given to them, Mercenary Thrakioi Prodromoi or Tarambostes? Would fit, I gess but they already have some awesome all round cavalry.


Btw, I suggest that Caucasian Archers should be added to Pontus since they can be recruited just next to your starting province (regional MIC) and they dont have any Persian-like/eastern archers atm.

Edit:

The file you are trying to access is temporarily unavailable. Please try again later.
Strange, I could open it in the morning in another computer.....
Are you uploading a new one?

Post Edit: Working again! =)

Testing notes
- Love the new Lanceari and Katpatuka Asabara looks, going to add the second ones to my current Pontic Campain (and some more stuff) =)

[vartan]

Pontus doesn't need Caucasian Archers. If they are not on the roster already, we can add them as mercs/regionals. As for factional units, Pontus has Toxotai, Persian Archers, Scythian Foot Archers, and Bosphoran Heavy Archers. If you will be playing competitively online, I suggest investing in and learning to use a pair of Bosphoran Heavies as they come very much in handy. In an epic 2v2 I played with gamegeek as one of my enemies (he was Pontus; and I rarely play!), he fielded a couple of deadly Bosphorans. Remember, units like Bosphorans, Syrians, Roman Imperial Archers, and the like can use melee weaponry after their ammunition is depleted. They can fill gaps, be used as mass.

[LusitanianWolf]

No, they don't have persian archers in the MP EDU, I was asking about caucasians (regionals, not as factional) because you get them first in the campain but persians would be even better. And I know that they have Scythians and Bosphorians who are realy good, I was asking for persian/eastern ones more for astectic/roleplaying reason than for balance reasons, pontus is more than fine, specialy now that their Thorakitai and Cappadokian Cavalry got a realy nice boost.

For the same reasons I would also like to have the indian elephants in the Pahlava's EDU , since IMHO they have the best and very unique skin with that beautifull tatoos and almost never are seen, but since they can only be recruited far away from the starting position and this EDU is being made for the tournament, probably wouldnt be fair for other factions =/

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pahlava/pah_indian_elephant.gif

[vartan]

Persians should be factional and recruitable by Pontos. If they're not in the roster that's something that needs to be fixed GG2. Look at the EB site. They're factional.

[gamegeek2]

I shall fix, and give caucasians some more ammo, too.

[LusitanianWolf]

More coments:

Arjos cust 1569 and Appe Gaedotu (alpine phalanx) costs 1155? Isnt too small prices for such units?

Iberi Lancearii are now the ultimate shock force. Btw, is killing half a fresh unengaged Solduros unit (30 in 60!!!) in a single frontal charge being overpowered? I hope it isnt, because they are F***ing awesome now :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Edit: ok, they usualy dont kill that much (it was down hill) but they are a certain kill in the back of any engajed unit. But now they die very easily in melee so it makes for it. I love the way they are now, even without the gorgeous horse armour.

[vartan]

You need to read the notes on the Arjos and alpine. Look even in this thread there is a discussion on that matter already.

[gamegeek2]

Alpines were always that cheap...

[LusitanianWolf]

You need to read the notes on the Arjos and alpine. Look even in this thread there is a discussion on that matter already.
Ups, sorry.

[vartan]

You seriously need to proofread the EDU changes gg. I was just in MP and Camillan Hastati costs over 300 more than Camillan Principes, eeek!

EDIT: The Romans gonna' love it tho!

[gamegeek2]

Vartan, the Camillan Hastati have 100 men, the Principes only 80. Did you notice that?

[vartan]

Vartan, the Camillan Hastati have 100 men, the Principes only 80. Did you notice that?
Yes. So why are Principes cheaper man for man?

[gamegeek2]

They aren't. Math time: 100/80 = 1.25, so we must multiply the cost of Principes by 1.25 to get a direct comparison of cost per man with Hastati. 1176 * 1.25 = 1470, which is more than the cost of early Hastati (1415) per man.

[The Celtic Viking]

It's pretty close, though.

Anyway, I've got two questions. The first is regarding the cavalry charge value system that you've implemented. Could you explain it a bit further for the unenlightened? In particular, I'm wondering about what the different tiers of cavalry mean.

Secondly, one of the factions that I thought was a rather poor choice in MP was Casse. I only saw someone else use it once (I think the game crashed or was aborted in some other way before our lines clashed) and I've tried them once myself (got my ass handed to me on a tin plate). Since you should know best, how do you think they've come out from these changes? Better? Worse? The same?

[vartan]

They aren't. Math time: 100/80 = 1.25, so we must multiply the cost of Principes by 1.25 to get a direct comparison of cost per man with Hastati. 1176 * 1.25 = 1470, which is more than the cost of early Hastati (1415) per man.
I'm guessing Camillan Principes cost the same as Hastati because the Principes use spears which are cheaper than the swords used by Hastati, correct?

[Burebista]

It's pretty close, though.

Secondly, one of the factions that I thought was a rather poor choice in MP was Casse. I only saw someone else use it once (I think the game crashed or was aborted in some other way before our lines clashed) and I've tried them once myself (got my ass handed to me on a tin plate). Since you should know best, how do you think they've come out from these changes? Better? Worse? The same?

I'm also interested in Casse. I was trying to make a functional army with Casse before the changes and the only tactic that rly paid off was a berzerk rush strat.
Basically ur army would look like this : 6-8 elite 2Hand-ers (Kluddargos-amazing/Ordmalica-factional for Casse) surrounded by lots of spear armed cannon fodder for protection (Imannae or better yet velinica at 908 mnai with 120 men) with 1 druid unit and 2 Cidaihn protecting my rear agains cavalry charges.

After the changes , this option got more interesting as Kluddargos got cheaper by 200 i think , the light cav got a higher charge/lethality & the ebherni tanks got 200 mani discount too.

Not much , but it's a plus .

What rly surprised me is not having factional Milnaht as that helps tremendously in forming a somewhat balanced line and not a berzerker one.
One definite plus is the Myrcharn , perfect light cav : I mean 1300 with 27 charge & 8 jav ...ouch. If you can keep them away from missiles , they can be a real nuisance for heavyer cav as they can never catch them , but can't turn their backs easily also.

[gamegeek2]

Casse aren't horrible...I crushed a phalanx army with the Casse very recently. There are a few things I discovered:

1. You have no heavy cavalry, hence chariots are incredibly important to defeating heavy horsemen. You have to protect them and divert enemy attention away from the chariots, so you can spring them at an opportune moment and crush your enemy's cataphracts, or whatever they have.
2. Keep your opponent out of his comfort zone. That means using unconventional tactics, particularly attacking at an angle, and avoiding linear engagements. Your troops are lighter and not of the same quality, so you will lose if you go at the enemy in a conventional linear fashion.
3. Use morale to maximum effect. The Casse have several units that offer the "command" bonus to local troops' morale. This is crucial to keeping your men fighting, as Celtic units don't have the same morale level as Germanic and Getic ones - but if you can keep your men fighting, your units have greater numbers and high-lethality swords to grind your opponent out with. At the same time, take note that the Ebherni Shock Troops now frighten nearby enemy infantry.

Here's the build I brought in that recent battle, to the best of my memory, with an analysis accompanying it:

1 Chariots - Explained earlier. Also note that they have the inspire nearby troops "command" ability.
3 Goidic Cavalry -I chose these because they have a combination of light horses (letting them outrun almost any enemies) and acceptable staying power (for barbarian javcav, that is). They are relatively expensive - 2700 mnai - but it was not too big of a deal as the rest of my army was fairly cheap.
4 Immanae - Two purposes: javelin harassment (particularly on the flanks), and meatshielding. You have to save your swordsmen, chariots, and cavalry from suffering arrow barrages, hence these hapless hooligans are sent to take the hit.
1 Sotaroas - Same purpose as the Immanae. With numbers expanded to 80 men on large, they do this job even better now, for not much more cost, and can get a couple shots off at valuable, easier to kill targets like medium cav.
1 Kluddargos - Have the command ability, plus wield brutal swords. Can be vulnerable, as they lack shields, so be sure to keep them in melee to make hitting them difficult.
2 Dubosaverlacica - Lower nearby enemy morale, have armour piercing javelins, and can take on almost any single unit and live to tell the tale. Be sure to not waste them - but don't consider using them as a flanking force a waste. Having two of them helps, so you can commit one and have the other sitting right behind the main fight, still giving off the fear effect, but ready to go at any time.
8 Botroas - Yes, 8 of them. They're extremely cost efficient, as they have 100 men, three javelins, and 0.225 lethality longswords. A perfect unit for massing in a critical attack on an enemy.

Finally, one more tip: be patient while setting up your attack, but once you commit, be aggressive and strike hard with all appropriate resources. Here's some reasoning behind that:

-You need your attack to work, as you will have to be the attacker, since if you're passive, the enemy can easily set up his 'superior' forces to overwhelm you. Hence, you must make sure you are ready to commit when you do so.
-Having positional superiority is crucial. The more enemy units you can effectively ignore, the better. That's why an angled attack on one flank works - much of the enemy's force simply can't be brought to bear without messing up his position. Keeping a few units in position to either reinforce your flank attack, deter enemy movements, or troops from one flank coming to another's aid - is a good way to take advantage of this.
-Committing all appropriate resources to the attack means sending everything to ensure victory at a crucial point in the battle. Don't feel this is overcommitting - you probably don't need to send your whole force to ensure this, and if you feel it's still too much, remember that if you don't win here, you're going to lose anyway. This means sending three cavalry units to deal with his one. This means using three units to kill one phalanx. Local superiority is the crux of a successful attack in all warfare; EB Online is no exception.

[antisocialmunky]

Points:
General:
-Any thoughts on Light -> Heavy Spear on heavy infantry? This is especially the case for spear/sword infantry since those units end up in a kill fest infantry many times due to light spear decreasing defense and heavy spear decreasing attack vs infantry. I think it would be more appropriate for atleast heavy infantry who flight in close order with shields to prefer slow combat instead of fast combat. Its really bad when you fight heavy spear infantry with AP infantry.

Cav:
-I'm actually quite worried about tweaking lance lethalities and attack. Cav is basically OP above about 32K in Vanilla EB and the only way to beat cav spam is cav spam or walls of spears and archer superiority. Though, if medium cavalry can beat the heavy chargers for cost, then it would actually work and you know, be more strategic thinking especially for factions with good quality medium cavs.

Romans:
-Restatting Marian stamina bonus drastically weakens those units against Germans and Dacians. You need the staying power to cut through the barbs. Likewise, this will make them die like flies on the Classical Hoplite shield wall. I would not want to play Romans vs KH at all because that would just end in a sitting contest. Surprisingly the KH would probably win that due to rotating in their AP Hoplite units in and out and resting them back to warmed up. Maybe the short sword .15 bonus helps them but I'm not thinking so with how crucial stamina is in this game. High Stamina + High Morale units with decent numbers and other stats are the best ones in the game. Romans really need jack of all trades infantry to be worthwhile after the reforms. They lack dedicated Assault/AP infantry unless we should be using merc nakeds or something else :\
-Are the Roman Javs still AP? If so it seems that the buff to Principles will make them quite powerful.
-Roman Cavalry including the allies? If so that will probably just make people take merc hippies instead for 2K because merc hippies are almost the same as Roman Cav.

Hellens:
-I'm assuming that now you can actually dent phalanx formations with missiles? :)
-Iph. Hoplites + Thureophoroi or Iph. Hoplites + Classical Hoplites will probably be the new main line infantry combo with archers in the back to quickly gain missile superiority via Bosphorans.
-Thorakitai Hoplitai will be amazing with .135 lethality + AP, switch me to KH Vartan! Marians don't stand a chance at all.

Baktria:
-Did you ever figure out why Indian Longbowman die like flies? I've never been able to figure out why they suck vs every competent archer in the game.
-Baktrian BG given +2 morale - lol

Steppe:
-Still OP, always will be.

Elephants and Chariots:
-Can we get 1/2 sized 1/2 cost versions of these so you can actually control them?

I hope you guys tested this fairly extensively.

Also, if you haven't fixed it already, you might want to make sure KH has all the correct units on their roster. They used to be missing some.

I might hop on to test. When are you guys on and what time zone?

[vartan]

-Thorakitai Hoplitai will be amazing with .135 lethality + AP, switch me to KH Vartan! Marians don't stand a chance at all.
I had to read through all of your post twice to find this. I hate you forever. :laugh4:

Baktria:
-Did you ever figure out why Indian Longbowman die like flies? I've never been able to figure out why they suck vs every competent archer in the game.
If they're facing armoured archers, the Indians will die sooner than the armoured ones will. End of story.

-Baktrian BG given +2 morale - lol
I'm still not done laughing at this one! I'm right with ya.

Steppe:
-Still OP, always will be.
That's cause Steppe is boss of the boss. Very hard to control for some players.

Elephants and Chariots:
-Can we get 1/2 sized 1/2 cost versions of these so you can actually control them?
I remember you were the first to propose this. What do you think GG2? Possible?

I hope you guys tested this fairly extensively.
Help us test it.

Also, if you haven't fixed it already, you might want to make sure KH has all the correct units on their roster. They used to be missing some.
This is very necessary. GG2, don't forget to add the following to the KH MP roster:


Hippeis Thessalikoi (Thessalian Heavy Cavalry)
Toxotai (Hellenic Archers)
Peltastai (Hellenic Heavy Skirmishers)

[LusitanianWolf]

Casse aren't horrible...I crushed a phalanx army with the Casse very recently. There are a few things I discovered:


I saw that (was spectating) and it was amasing! I suggest you post here the replay as you did with the Sweboz one.



Elephants and Chariots:
-Can we get 1/2 sized 1/2 cost versions of these so you can actually control them?
Totally agree!

[Burebista]

10 k for elephants are an ok investment.

5k foe ellies ..kmon. we ould have an elephant fest.

Maybe a reduction for eastern elephants. 13 k seems a right price.

[LusitanianWolf]

10 k for elephants are an ok investment.

5k foe ellies ..kmon. we ould have an elephant fest.

Maybe a reduction for eastern elephants. 13 k seems a right price.
Werent Diadochoi battles usualy a elephant fest? =P

[Burebista]

Werent Diadochoi battles usualy a elephant fest? =P

Rarely. And they weren't on a budget as we are. SP vs MP.

[gamegeek2]

I saw that (was spectating) and it was amasing! I suggest you post here the replay as you did with the Sweboz one.


Same trick doesn't work twice though. Next time Aga shot my chariots and things didn't go so well :(

[LusitanianWolf]

Rarely. And they weren't on a budget as we are. SP vs MP.

I ges youre right. Unfortunly in my campains the AI rarely use them so I was hoping to find some in MP.


Same trick doesn't work twice though. Next time Aga shot my chariots and things didn't go so well :(
Well, Aga isnt a training dummy, you know? XD He also learns and evolve his tecniques. He is not a hasty Axebitten like me whose favorite word is CHARGE! =p
But yes, when its barbarians vs diadochoi or steppes you have to allways be developing new tactics because the same ones wont work many times agaisnt the sheer power of phalangites/heavy cav/Horse Archers and a brain behind them that forces you to play with very limited options.

[vartan]

I just got notified that Indian Longbowmen only have 16 arrows. We already know from practice that they suck and fall quickly since they're not armoured. Can they at least get some more ammo?

EDIT: Apparently German archers also have something like 15 arrows. Is this really good for MP? Don't want people not choosing the unit for its lack of arrows :/

[The Celtic Viking]

Same goes for Sotaroas. Not that they're likely to survive long enough to fire all of them anyway. :rolleyes:

[LusitanianWolf]

I just got notified that Indian Longbowmen only have 16 arrows. We already know from practice that they suck and fall quickly since they're not armoured. Can they at least get some more ammo?

EDIT: Apparently German archers also have something like 15 arrows. Is this really good for MP? Don't want people not choosing the unit for its lack of arrows :/
Well, with Sweboz in MP the only reason for chosing Skutjanz or Lankininkas is price, since they suck and Medininkas are a bit better overall.
Maybe you could make them more task specifics, one that is best with ranged attack, one that is not as good as ranged but can hold himself in melee and other that is a hibrid but not as good in ranged or melee as the specialist ones.

[gamegeek2]

I don't want to mess with accuracy, otherwise I might make the Skudjonez into sharpshooters.

I have now given all archers a minimum of 25 ammo. Does this sound good?

[vartan]

Sure.

[Lazy O]

Bosporan Heavy Archers.

1400~ Cost - Way too cheap, 10 more men than all the other archers, alongside their melee capability. Either reduce the unit size to 30 or increase their cost. Because you would be hard pressed to find a unit in the 1400 range that can beat them.

[gamegeek2]

Um, Cretans?

[Lazy O]

Cretans have less men and less armor

[vartan]

Cretans have less men and less armor
I can assure you from in-game practice that Kretans and Bosphorans are the hardest archers to beat right now, with Bosphorans at top. Imperial Roman archers die almost as fast as Indian Longbowmen. Wanna beat Bosphorans at the moment? Charge with cav, unfortunately.

[Lazy O]

Aw come on, as if it wasn't enough that they are awesome archers, they have to be supermen with a large unit size?

[gamegeek2]

Bosporan archer ammo has been cut to 30. Levantine archer auxilia now have 30 ammo, same as Cretans.