London riots

[Ironside]

It is the middle classes which are segretated. Like the upper classes, the lower classes are very much the perfect multi-ethnic society. White teenage girls all dream of black babies asap. Boys roam the streets in groups, imposible to tell who is white, brown or black in everything but their skin colour. The same patois, the same clothes, the same gestures. It is this brew that ran amok in the 2005 French riots, not any poverty of immigrants, or political grievances, or Islam. It is poisenous potion of MTV rap video, gansta culture, nihilism, hatred. An atavistic street culture revolving around honour and respect, both notions understood slightly differently than in minstream society. It should bnot be a coincidence that the spark in the powder keg in both London 2011 and Paris 2005 was the death of 'one of their own' at the hands of the police. Spilled blood which had to be avenged, to be taken back from 'them', them being civilised society.

Basic male psychology is to be respected and having status (partially since it attracts the ladies). If you're living in an area were a lot of people can't get status through normal means (like your job) and where the police has given up the monopoly of violence, you'll have quite nasty results.

Are the richer ones simply thrill seekers caught up in the moment then?

And calling gangster culture for black culture is racist, or at least very stupid.
A. You are constantly needed to provide an explaination. "By white culture I'm talking about southern hillbillies."
B. By doing this you're actively (but possibly not intentionally) encuraging people to mix the concepts up, which sets up C.
C. You're telling people that they are different by default and if they are to be proud of being that (and people like to be proud of themselves), they should act like we have defined their behavior. Or to be short, be proud of being black= be proud of being a gangsta, thus enforcing the problem.



A population thinks (because it has often been told so by intellectuals and the political class) that it is entitled to a high standard of consumption, irrespective of its personal efforts; and therefore it regards the fact that it does not receive that high standard, by comparison with the rest of society, as a sign of injustice. Much of what they have is provided by others, but they are not grateful: dependency doesn't encourage gratitude but resentment.

The other option is calling and threating them as worthless parasitic pieces on the society. I'm sure that mentally and physically (no money and no job) corner them will have absolutly no negative effects at all. They will certainly not become destructive because of that. Absolutly no risk for that at all.


And to see if there's any hints from the study Adrian linked (it's a good one, Japanese children are looonely for example), anyone got any ideas what's causing UK and US to have such low values there?

[Adrian II]

There is nothing 'black' about gangsta culture, nothing 'Latin' about drug wars, nothing 'white' about redneck culture or Irish hoodlums.

Gangters will develop their own subculture.

Our problem is that we have allowed gangterism to become mainstream. JD Sports was the favourite target of the London looters. I don;t wish their staff any harm, but I can't deplore the fact that their shops went up in flames. Why has it become mainstream? Because modern capitalism reflects their values on a scale not seen since primitive accumulation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_accumulation_of_capital).

If anything, capitalism is 'black'.

AII

[Centurion1]

There is nothing 'black' about gangsta culture, nothing 'Latin' about drug wars, nothing 'white' about redneck culture or Irish hoodlums.

Gangters will develop their own subculture.

Our problem is that we have allowed gangterism to become mainstream. JD Sports was the favourite target of the London looters. I don;t wish their staff any harm, but I can't deplore the fact that their shops went up in flames. Why has it become mainstream? Because modern capitalism reflects their values on a scale not seen since primitive accumulation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_accumulation_of_capital).

If anything, capitalism is 'black'.

AII

Whats wrong with this JD sports place..... they sell sports attire.

[Adrian II]

Whats wrong with this JD sports place..... they sell sports attire.

Saves me the trouble (http://www.newdigitalpoint.com/showthread.php/43767-UK-riots-Love-affair-with-gangster-chic-turns-sour-for-top-fashion-brands).

AII

[Centurion1]

Saves me the trouble (http://www.newdigitalpoint.com/showthread.php/43767-UK-riots-Love-affair-with-gangster-chic-turns-sour-for-top-fashion-brands).

AII

Ah gangster style clothing is not ocean crossing.

addidas is the clothing of tennis and golf players in the States I have a set of addidas tennis apparel.

even nike isn't seen as gangster, maybe the shoes but not even that.

[Adrian II]

Ah gangster style clothing is not ocean crossing.

addidas is the clothing of tennis and golf players in the States I have a set of addidas tennis apparel.

even nike isn't seen as gangster, maybe the shoes but not even that.

It's also the hoodies, the apparel, etcetera.

Speaking of ocean crossing, this Bill Bratton is a man after my heart. He has already declared that 'you cannot arrest yourself out of violence and gang culture'. His own example has been rather inspiring. He says you need to work on community building, reducing racial tensions ann tackle law and order issues with more patrols, quicker arrests and more violent means if necessary. "Arrest is certainly appropriate for the most violent, the incorrigible, but so much of it can be addressed in other ways and it's not just a police issue, it is in fact a societal issue," he told ABC. "It's not easy, it's hard work, but it can be done and in many respects you have to argue that it must be done because you just can't continue the way you've been going."

In NY he started out by putting an extra 5000, better trained policemen on the streets and investing heavily in the namby-pamby community stuff that mouth-foaming right-wing commentators in the UK seem to abhor.

Chancellor George Osborne seems to have wisened up as well. "There are very deep-seated social problems which we need to tackle. There are communities that have just been left behind by the rest of the country, there are communities cut off from the economic lifeblood of the rest of the country," he told BBC Radio 4 Today. "This is not just about police budgets; this is about a far bigger challenge for our society, which is dealing with people who we have ignored for too long and helping them feel they have a stake in society."


Hear hear..

AII

[rory_20_uk]

Communities left behind. I always find that odd. Free education up to the age of 18. Free healthcare.

I think that the biggest problems are that there are few jobs that pay significantly better than benefits, and at the same time have raised aspirations of everyone to ludicrous levels. People that can't be bothered to get a job and also feel that they are missing out on all of the trappings of life that they "deserve" - and stealing is the clear way to square the circle.

It may be an oft used phrase, but getting a job does make a massive difference. You are then a lot more likely to be integrated in others. I know this at the moment as I'm effectively self employed at the moment and I loathe being by myself for most of my working day. I'm still not connected in my community as that ain't my job.

The clear problem with this is a lack of jobs that people are prepared to do. I do my job as I can earn up to £1k in a day (only bank holidays). But for minimum wage? Probably not.

The old way of doing it was "whips of the mind" - the class system. People had aspirations of where they were born, and people "knew their place" and most didn't change classes. Now, we are all told we can all do anything... except that practically this rarely happens.

One approach would be to force people back into their place. The other would be to help them integrate into society. But school up to the age of 18 didn't help - so what is next?

~:smoking:

[Centurion1]

It's also the hoodies, the apparel, etcetera.

Speaking of ocean crossing, this Bill Bratton is a man after my heart. He has already declared that 'you cannot arrest yourself out of violence and gang culture'. His own example has been rather inspiring. He says you need to work on community building, reducing racial tensions ann tackle law and order issues with more patrols, quicker arrests and more violent means if necessary. "Arrest is certainly appropriate for the most violent, the incorrigible, but so much of it can be addressed in other ways and it's not just a police issue, it is in fact a societal issue," he told ABC. "It's not easy, it's hard work, but it can be done and in many respects you have to argue that it must be done because you just can't continue the way you've been going."

In NY he started out by putting an extra 5000, better trained policemen on the streets and investing heavily in the namby-pamby community stuff that mouth-foaming right-wing commentators in the UK seem to abhor.

Chancellor George Osborne seems to have wisened up as well. "There are very deep-seated social problems which we need to tackle. There are communities that have just been left behind by the rest of the country, there are communities cut off from the economic lifeblood of the rest of the country," he told BBC Radio 4 Today. "This is not just about police budgets; this is about a far bigger challenge for our society, which is dealing with people who we have ignored for too long and helping them feel they have a stake in society."


Hear hear..

AII

And New York has horrendous crime rates and more organized crime than all of the UK could ever imagine.

[Adrian II]

And New York has horrendous crime rates and more organized crime than all of the UK could ever imagine.

I thought he brought down crime at an amazing rate. Are you suggesting he didn't do a good job, or the contrary: that he knows what he's talking about?

AII

[Centurion1]

I thought he brought down crime at an amazing rate. Are you suggesting he didn't do a good job, or the contrary: that he knows what he's talking about?

AII

I think it's a mixed bag and you shouldn't hype what he did as some savior plan. It didn't revolutionize crime fighting and his desire to ethnically diversify the police force through artificial means is not something I can ever support. His beliefs in the escalation of force is something I support.

Also his methods involved relatively steep increases in revenue for law enforcement through extra community taxes is unlikely to be something that cameron would be willing to get behind.

Your statement of "bringing down crime at an amazing rate in NYC" is hyperbole at an epic level.

Gang violence in the city was barely touched in the end and he really brought down crime by making so many arrests and being much harsher on the whole than his predecessor.

Plus cops in America carry guns while british police are unfortunately left bereft and have to be much more careful and as a result are a little less in your face which can sometimes be a good thing in a large urban area. \\

Finally crime is two different entities in the US and Europe. Gang violence and drugs are as always at the pinnacle of that iceberg.

[Adrian II]

I think it's a mixed bag and you shouldn't hype what he did as some savior plan.

I thought he brought down felony crime by 39 percent and murder by 50 percent in just over two years New York, no?

That's pretty amazing to me.

AII

[Centurion1]

I thought he brought down felony crime by 39 percent and murder by 50 percent in just over two years New York, no?

That's pretty amazing to me.

AII

through a universal tax surcharge that allowed him to increase the size of the police force by huge amounts as well as the introduction of compstat which isn't really his brain child though he was innovative in introducing it.

Also there was a huge nation wide decline in crime in the 90's......

He definetly did some good things like I said. I am just saying he is not the end all be all and I do not like a few of his policies.

[Adrian II]

He definetly did some good things like I said. I am just saying he is not the end all be all and I do not like a few of his policies.

What he says sounds sensible to me, particularly against the background of the kangaroo justice we're seeing in Britain atm.

A student got 6 months in prison for nicking a few bottles of water. A certain Imran Khan, 23, from Birmingham, got 2,5 months for assaulting a policeman which in my book is a hundred times worse. I believe these are kangaroo courts, asking for technicality overturns, compensation claims, appeals before the European Court.

Then there's the evictions. People are evicted merely because a family member is suspected of breaking the law. How about innocent until being proven guilty? Besides, how can you ask parents to turn in their children if the result of that is the whole family will be evicted?

In the mean time we learn that Mark Duggan was executed in his taxi and that the IPCC have lied about it. It seems that this is no one's concern, it doesn't matter.

What a weird sight the UK makes these days.

I imagine the Netherlands looked like that to the rest of the world after Theo van Gogh was murdered, although in different ways and for different reasons. Suddenyl a whole country appears in a different, less savoury light.

AII

[Montmorency]

And New York has horrendous crime rates and more organized crime than all of the UK could ever imagine.

:laugh4:

[Slyspy]

In the mean time we learn that Mark Duggan was executed in his taxi and that the IPCC have lied about it. It seems that this is no one's concern, it doesn't matter.


We have?

[Centurion1]

:laugh4:

what precisely is humorous about that.

[Montmorency]

Oh , I'm simply a fan of irony.

[Centurion1]

its not ironic.

[Adrian II]

its not ironic.

I believe he finds it ironic that a policeman from a city with a high crime rate should have anything to teach British police.

It's like saying: "Oh, doctor X can't be a good surgeon because he comes from a hospital full of ill people."

Speaking of irony..

AII

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I believe he finds it ironic that a policeman from a city with a high crime rate should have anything to teach British police.

It's like saying: "Oh, doctor X can't be a good surgeon because he comes from a hospital full of ill people."

Speaking of irony..

AII

You switched to an older Avatar, it's still not your Red Inquisitor though.

Anyway...

I don't think these are Kangaroo Courts, mostly these people have been caught on CCTV, their guilt is known. Where sentancing seems weird I expect that this is a case of sentancing rules being off, with the maximum penalty being lower for assaulting a policeman (which I suspect is a relatively modern statutary crime) vs basis theft or burglary.

As to evicting people on suspicion, yeah not happy about that.

[Adrian II]

You switched to an older Avatar, it's still not your Red Inquisitor though.

I've buried my Malleus and retired to a convent in the Abruzzi to contemplate my sins, my friend.

What is your take on the American?

AII

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I've buried my Malleus and retired to a convent in the Abruzzi to contemplate my sins, my friend.

You're not that old, or ill I hope.


What is your take on the American?

AII

Mixed.

Policing, Justice, and Prisons work differently in different countries. In Scandanavia prisons are more like Rehab centres, with facilities and activities that encourage rehabilitation. Traditional English prisons were austere, not really cruel, but unpleasent and mind numbingly boring, modern English prisons seem to have turned into doss houses that include luxuraries but no motivation to reform. I think we would do better with the austere, unpleasent, model.

Policing is like that. I saw some coppers today, flourecent jackets, combat boots, what looked like flame retardant trousers, all with a webbing stab vest and the traditional helmet. I have also seen policemen on the beat in flat caps and black stretch-tops which look like the sort of wicking undershirts the squaddies where under their number 5 battle dress. This offends me, the Police are meant to be civilians but they have increasingly militarised, and this has caused problems. When the Nightstick was introduced about fifteen years ago now Police brutality shot up.

The thing is, the traditional Police uniform was always meant to straddle the civilian-military divide, but now they look less like Police and more like paramilitaries. If the American thinks that using rubber bullets and water canon on the Mainland is a good idea then he fails doesn't understand that the basic problem the Police already have is that they are seen as apart from wider scoiety. Certainly, force is a necessary tool in some instances but I would prefer to simply see more Police about, not looking like soldiers, than have drastic and violent solutions.

The power of the Police is largely in an idea, not a reality.

The Police need to be feared and respect, feared because they represent the eyes and ears of the law and its full force, respected because they are civilians from within their local comunities.

[Adrian II]

You're not that old, or ill I hope.

No, I just have a lot of sins to contemplate.

Thanks for your comments. I still find it hard to believe that the police let so many thugs run rings around them for four days. Now that the rain and numbers have finally given them control of the streets again, they are watching miles of CCTV footage of the people they should have arrested straight away.

Greater Manchester Police are typical. They posted a triumphant message on Twitter today: "Mum-of-two, not involved in disorder, jailed for FIVE months for accepting shorts looted from shop. There are no excuses!" They later apologised and deleted the message.

So they stood around scratching their ***es for four days, let the worst perps go about their business, and now they're proud of bagging a mother of two? Sorry, I think they're a pathetic lot.

This sort of apathy and cowardice is clearly the downside of British community policing. Imagine how bad things could have escalated. If it hadn't been for one wise bereaved father in Birmingham, that town would have a full-blown race war on its hands as we speak.

AII

[Papewaio]

I blame it on the cities (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2006988/A-rural-life-better-Living-concrete-jungle-really-stressful-make-vulnerable-depression.html).


Dr Jens Pruessner of the Douglas Mental Health University Institute in Quebec, who helped carry out the study, said: ‘Previous findings have shown that the risk for anxiety disorders is 21 per cent higher for people from the city, who also have a 39 per cent increase for mood disorders.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2006988/A-rural-life-better-Living-concrete-jungle-really-stressful-make-vulnerable-depression.html#ixzz1UxTPKTtC


So how many parks in these council estates?

How many of these kids ever get to spend time in the wilderness?

How many of them are from functioning homes?

=][=

Also kicking people out smacks of reactive anger. Think about what will happen come winter and women and children are on the streets.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No, I just have a lot of sins to contemplate.

No comment.


Thanks for your comments. I still find it hard to believe that the police let so many thugs run rings around them for four days. Now that the rain and numbers have finally given them control of the streets again, they are watching miles of CCTV footage of the people they should have arrested straight away.

Greater Manchester Police are typical. They posted a triumphant message on Twitter today: "Mum-of-two, not involved in disorder, jailed for FIVE months for accepting shorts looted from shop. There are no excuses!" They later apologised and deleted the message.

So they stood around scratching their ***es for four days, let the worst perps go about their business, and now they're proud of bagging a mother of two? Sorry, I think they're a pathetic lot.

This sort of apathy and cowardice is clearly the downside of British community policing. Imagine how bad things could have escalated. If it hadn't been for one wise bereaved father in Birmingham, that town would have a full-blown race war on its hands as we speak.

AII

Moral (and morality) are at an all-time low in all Services, but especially in the Police. I am a firm believer in the power of the Uniform and the theraputic toil of boot-bulling, but beyond that the Police have been hamstrung by sucessive governments and are now scared of their own shadow.

Take, for example, the copper who beat that guy at the G-20 Summit, unjust or not it was clearly a mistake but the Officer is now up on a Manslaughter charge, and at the other end of the spectrum the Police can be sued for wrongful inprisonment if, after the arrest, they cannot subsiquently prove they had grounds. In the case of the riots the result is what we got, had they the power to Read the Riot Act (repealed 1973) everyone could have been arrested and charged on the first night.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The last thing you guys want are American police. See: Police Abuse thread.

I hope CR comes in here and talks some sense.

[econ21]

I still find it hard to believe that the police let so many thugs run rings around them for four days. Now that the rain and numbers have finally given them control of the streets again, they are watching miles of CCTV footage of the people they should have arrested straight away.

I don't find that so hard to believe. For me, the unbelievable thing is how many looters there were - they just vastly outnumbered the police (often there were no police - they were elsewhere). There's just no way the police could have arrested significant numbers in some of the flashpoints. You can see this if you look at the "retreat" Woolwich video PJ linked earlier in this thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?137238-London-riots&p=2053356333&viewfull=1#post2053356333

Or the flash-mob looting of the jewellers in Enfield I linked:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?137238-London-riots&p=2053356450&viewfull=1#post2053356450

I don't see any police apathy or cowardice in those videos.


In the case of the riots the result is what we got, had they the power to Read the Riot Act (repealed 1973) everyone could have been arrested and charged on the first night.

That's an interesting idea. It did strike me from the videos that there were large numbers of "spectators" hanging around the youths actively looting. At best, I think they gave the looters some feeling of the protection of anonymity of being in a large crowd; at worst, they joined in opportunistically. Having the legal power to disperse them might well have helped.

[Louis VI the Fat]

the "retreat" Woolwich video PJ linked earlier in this thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?137238-London-riots&p=2053356333&viewfull=1#post2053356333

I don't see any police apathy or cowardice in those videos. I do see cowardice in those videos. When I see those eight coppers retreat in PJ's video, I think of eight coppers when confronted with a scared girl with a broken neck, and how though they act then.

If these weren't hardened street criminals but protesting students, you can bet the police would've dragged off a few of them to beat the living daylight out of them. When confronted with thugs, they run.

Still, I do not blame them for being cowards, I blame them for being scum with a uniform. Like the looting thugs in the video, when they sense weakness, they pounce. When they sense the slightest danger, they run. Useless lot.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I'd like to see the next speech by the PM begin: "Our sovereign lady the Queen chargeth and commandeth all persons being assembled...." and then conclude with a statement noting that troops have been authorized to enforce the appropriate curfew. I doubt I will see such though.

[Centurion1]

I do see cowardice in those videos. When I see those eight coppers retreat in PJ's video, I think of eight coppers when confronted with a scared girl with a broken neck, and how though they act then.

If these weren't hardened street criminals but protesting students, you can bet the police would've dragged off a few of them to beat the living daylight out of them. When confronted with thugs, they run.

Still, I do not blame them for being cowards, I blame them for being scum with a uniform. Like the looting thugs in the video, when they sense weakness, they pounce. When they sense the slightest danger, they run. Useless lot.

ummmm in any mass riot it is impossible for all of the rioters to be "hardened street criminals"

what the cops did in that video was intelligent and good riot tactics.

[Fragony]

'I imagine the Netherlands looked like that to the rest of the world after Theo van Gogh was murdered, although in different ways and for different reasons. Suddenyl a whole country appears in a different, less savoury light.'

Only in our own eyes, that thing called earth that surrounds us wasn't all that interested, all that 'guide country' crap it's almost devine punishment for such arrogance, things aren't perfect who would have thought. The Dutch really don't seem to realise that we are not an island. Norway I am looking at you as well

[Adrian II]

The last thing you guys want are American police. See: Police Abuse thread.

I don't think Cameron has invited the entire NYPD over to London. British police themselves are quite capable of abusing the public, obstructing justice, killing people wrongfully and manipulating testimony.

AII

[HoreTore]

Oh, I got yer irony. My only hope is that the "forming minds" part is exclusively about math because some of your other thought processes are part of the problem.

I'm a social science teacher first, and a math teacher second.

I don't see how the rest of your post has anything to do with me, however.

[Fragony]

I'm a social science teacher first, and a math teacher second.

I don't see how the rest of your post has anything to do with me, however.

I do

[rory_20_uk]

I don't think Cameron has invited the entire NYPD over to London. British police themselves are quite capable of abusing the public, obstructing justice, killing people wrongfully and manipulating testimony.

And as taking pictures of police is not allowed, even providing evidence of abuse is technically illegal.

The police prefer beating up those types who protest against foreign wars or university cuts. Attacking those who commit arson and looting is apparently not what they signed up for.

~:smoking:

[Adrian II]

Interesting piece (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_GANGLAND_BRITAIN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT) about gang culture.


Karen McCluskey, a director of Scotland's Violence Reduction Unit, in 2008 held her first Boston-style mass meeting with gang members in a Glasgow courthouse. She said gang members were shocked to learn the wealth of intelligence police held about them, appeared unaware of the range of help on offer, and were shamed by stories of how their behavior had terrified their neighborhoods.

McCluskey said her colleagues were skeptical that American anti-gang techniques could be imported meaningfully to Scotland, then watched Glasgow's gang-related violent crimes fall 46 percent in the past three years because of them.

"It's easy to say that the approach won't work here because of this difference or that difference," Kennedy said. "The one thing we've learned is that the differences don't make a difference."

[Fragony]

And as taking pictures of police is not allowed, even providing evidence of abuse is technically illegal.

The police prefer beating up those types who protest against foreign wars or university cuts. Attacking those who commit arson and looting is apparently not what they signed up for.

~:smoking:

Don't know about English police, but the Dutch police is quite frustrated by that. Some are bullies but most are not, they want to be of any use but they have to live the dream of the gutmensch who defied gravity and ended up at the top because of her vigina

[gaelic cowboy]

This is from the sports section of todays Irish Independent I particularly like the quote "Will someone please think of Phill Neville" :laugh4:

Apathy and fear tighten grip on society that can't be arsed (http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/apathy-and-fear-tighten-grip-on-society-that-cant-be-arsed-2847916.html)


Any week in which you find yourself saying, "I'm with Bernie Ecclestone on this" is a troubling week.

Any week which ends with you wondering, "Will somebody think of Phil Neville?" is a week when it's clear that everything has changed.

On Wednesday, Ecclestone pleaded with the authorities not to cancel this weekend's Premier League fixtures because of the message it would send to the world.

Neville then announced that, while he understood that Everton's game had to be called off, he was depressed at missing the season's opener.

We had all flirted with that depression when it was suggested that policing issues would see the weekend's games called off. It may have been the first sign that English society was prepared to reinvent itself when the police, Premier League and Football League arrived at the point when we could rejoice and the games were on.

Safety must come first was the cry before that. Nobody wanted to point out that English football matches don't actually require much policing or that the police had successfully managed not to police the first night of looting without the distraction of football matches.

Few wanted to think any differently last week. The left had their answer and the right had their counter-argument.

On one side they mocked the idea that the looters could be deprived. How could they be deprived when they had their expensive BlackBerrys? In a consumer culture, if you have a BlackBerry you can't be deprived. Maybe you can't even be unhappy

On the other, they blamed the cuts as if a wild class of the alienated and lawless had grown from scratch in the year since the Conservatives took power.

To emphasise this point, some took the words of the two girls who were interviewed on the BBC as a sign of this political meaning. The girls had been up all night drinking when they told the reporter that it was "the government's fault . . . the Conservatives . . . whoever it is, I don't know."

Peter Oborne, whose outstanding biography of Basil D'Oliveira demonstrates that he is a political writer who understands what really matters, tried bravely to link the two.

"Most of the people in this very expensive street," he wrote of a London dinner he attended recently, "were every bit as deracinated and cut off from the rest of Britain as the young, unemployed men and women who have caused such terrible damage over the last few days."

This will make many people uncomfortable, especially if we now have to examine the underlying causes and traumas that have driven bankers to behave as they do.

Footballers occupy a special position. Premier League players have, in the most part, moved from the world whose inhabitants shut down much of London last week to an environment furthest away from them.

They remain connected, through family and experience, but utterly isolated through wealth and an ability to get what they want when they want it. The only thing wrong with instant gratification, as the old joke goes, is that it takes too long.

The riots reflected the 'can't be arsed' society. The suspicion of intellectualism and learning in much of England has now mutated into an overpowering sense of apathy, a militant lack of curiosity among many people.

The story I heard in South Africa last year reflects that world. Two English boys drawn from the sort of communities which looted last week were flying to South Africa to take part in the Football for Hope tournament. When they arrived at Heathrow for their flight they didn't need the aggravation. They had a chance to see the world, experience things they had never experienced but they couldn't be arsed. Instead they went home and prowled their streets, safe and unchallenged by an experience that might have changed them.

This story is not unusual or surprising. There is a version of it in the cynicism that only masks the fear in the typical English dressing room. Talk to any professional and they will tell you that their biggest worry when doing interviews is the concern they'll be ridiculed by their team-mates.

Graeme Le Saux was assumed to be gay because he had spent much of his summer holiday driving through Europe with Ken Monkou. If he had spent it having sex with a woman while several other men were present he would have fitted in more comfortably.

Ashley Cole fires off an air rifle in the Chelsea dressing room for no reason except he can.

The fear of being different and of education is the thing that unites many levels of English society.

As they read out the occupations of some of the looters last week, it was hard not to think of the times when they did the same with football hooligans and wondered how estate agents and bankers could behave so violently. We shouldn't be so surprised anymore.

Those of us who have come to live in London know that it is a tolerant, accepting and stimulating city, thanks, in many ways, to the multiculturalism which is supposed to have failed again last week.

But there is an apathy and fear too. When the England squad issued a statement appealing for calm, it was read by Adrian Bevington, a well-meaning representative of the corporate class.

The FA decreed that it was not for the players "to dissect the social debate". Nobody could argue with that, but this was just another way of saying they should know their place. They were not responsible for the looting and they had no obligation to stand up and be a representative of anything. Also, they had to be protected from looking foolish.

For once, they could have done things differently and forgotten about the consequences. They could have talked as some of them tweeted and they could have been authentic without, for once, the fear of mockery. They didn't need to be role models or leaders, they just needed to be trusted.

A man called Sheldon Thomas appeared on Sky News on Wednesday. Thomas works with gangs. He was so persuasive he managed to draw some humanity from Kay Burley. He talked about the gang culture and his desire to look beyond the superficial which, for the purposes of his point, included the looting (Burley only briefly bristled).

"It is better to have a society," he said, "where hope is the main focus."

Hope is a frustrating, vague and painful thing. Often it comes from going to places you have never been prepared to go before.

dfanning@independent.ie

- Dion Fanning

[InsaneApache]

An academic ponders the reasons for crowd violence and how to tackle it!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04clpd7h0b0&feature=player_embedded

[Adrian II]

This is from the sports section of todays Irish Independent I particularly like the quote "Will someone please think of Phill Neville" :laugh4:

Apathy and fear tighten grip on society that can't be arsed (http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/apathy-and-fear-tighten-grip-on-society-that-cant-be-arsed-2847916.html)

[/SPOIL]

Excellent piece.

AII

[Adrian II]

An academic ponders the reasons for crowd violence and how to tackle it!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04clpd7h0b0&feature=player_embedded

First! (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?137238-London-riots&p=2053357554&viewfull=1#post2053357554)

That's the second time in this thread that people copy me posts. The next one gets it! :smg:

AII

[econ21]

I do see cowardice in those videos. When I see those eight coppers retreat in PJ's video, I think of eight coppers when confronted with a scared girl with a broken neck, and how though they act then.

If these weren't hardened street criminals but protesting students, you can bet the police would've dragged off a few of them to beat the living daylight out of them. When confronted with thugs, they run.

With respect, you are letting your personal experience of another place and quite different situation colour your view. I think it was Papewaio who admired the stiff upper lip of the 8 policemen in that video. They did not run - they withdrew in good order and still kept the crowd contained. The personal danger they were in is quite evident in the video (and expressed by the horrified reaction of the amateurs taking it "they need back up, now!") - it's not hard to imagine that if one of them had fallen (or tried to make an arrest), he could have been quickly overcome and perhaps killed as happened to PC Blakelock in a not dissimilar situation.


Still, I do not blame them for being cowards, I blame them for being scum with a uniform. Like the looting thugs in the video, when they sense weakness, they pounce. When they sense the slightest danger, they run. Useless lot.

I suspect the armchair criticism of police softness may be utterly wrong. There was a writer on Sky News this morning who made the point (a) the spark for the rioting was the police shooting one man dead; (b) the demonstration over the shooting only turned violent when - allegedly - a 16 year old girl on the demonstration was beaten up by riot police; (c) on the first night of trouble, the police charged the crowd with horses; (d) on the first night of trouble, there were 100s of arrests. I don't think the policing was too soft. It's just there was not enough of it - the police were overwhelmed.

I think we are doing something akin to blaming the messenger by focusing on police tactics or behaviour. A focus on the ability of police to get there fustest with mostest is called for. But the salient feature of these riots is not the police numbers - it's the numbers of rioters and looters. There are predicted to be around 3000 arrests. I think there were only around 3000 police on duty in London on the first night. How many rioters are likely to escape being arrested? I'd wager it will be at least 10 to 1. Perhaps 30 to 1. I suspect there were tens of thousands of young Brits looting and rioting over those four days. Why that is, is the central issue here - not the moral qualities of the police (who I think acted with great bravery and professionalism).

[Rhyfelwyr]

Don't know about English police, but the Dutch police is quite frustrated by that. Some are bullies but most are not, they want to be of any use but they have to live the dream of the gutmensch who defied gravity and ended up at the top because of her vigina

Can I sig this?

[Adrian II]

I think we are doing something akin to blaming the messenger by focusing on police tactics or behaviour.

People with experience at both ends of the riot stick, so to speak, tend to disagree.


The media called the trouble in London from Saturday to Monday nights ‘the worst riots in living memory’. That might be true in terms of the financial damage done by looting and arson. In terms of the fury of the rioters and the fierceness of the clashes with police so far, however, this outburst of disorder does not match the riots of the 1980s. Yet somehow a police force with more men in uniform and sophisticated riot gear than ever before, facing a less organised and less violent opposition than in the past, spent several days looking, in the words of one former Metropolitan Police commander, ‘impotent’.

link (http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10973/)




The single thing that has most astonished the British public was the sight of rows of heavily equipped police officers standing by whilst rioters and looters engaged in brazen acts of vandalism, arson and theft. A police officer called to the scene of a bank robbery would not park across the street and wait patiently for it to finish, so why were the Met’s riot police little more than spectators during the looting? This was clearly not the instinct of the constables in the line: it had to be instructions from above.

Some senior officers have denied this, but the TV pictures speak for themselves. Other officers have said that the criticisms and court cases the Met faced after the G20 and other political protests have inhibited them from taking firm action.

This is astonishing. The idea that you use the same tactic against blatant and provocative criminal activity as you do against peaceful protesters exercising their democratic rights beggars belief. Until the senior officers in the police recognise that, and tailor their approaches accordingly, we are destined to repeat the mistakes of the past.

link (http://conservativehome.blogs.com/platform/2011/08/david-davis-police.html)


AII

[Fragony]

Can I sig this?

One of my better works

[Furunculus]

birbalsingh arguing against starkey:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/katharinebirbalsingh/100100907/david-starkey-is-wrong-plain-and-simple/

[Beskar]

I stayed in Scandinavia an extra week because I was meant to be arriving and travelling in London but the stupid riots made me change my mind.

Mindless vandals and thugs, they deserve to be pushed into the channel.

[rory_20_uk]

Mindless vandals and thugs, they deserve to be pushed into the channel.

No, no, no.

It's society - they are emasculated and feel powerless.
It's the education system that has failed them.
It's... practically everything else except them.

Demanding that they get punished for their crimes is merely to perpetuate the cycle. They required social workers, workshops, self esteem classes.

Merely to punish is the myopic attitude of the Right wing types.

~:smoking:

[Beskar]

No, no, no.

It's society - they are emasculated and feel powerless.
It's the education system that has failed them.
It's... practically everything else except them.

Demanding that they get punished for their crimes is merely to perpetuate the cycle. They required social workers, workshops, self esteem classes.

Merely to punish is the myopic attitude of the Right wing types.

~:smoking:

Many of the people were well supported by the state and government, then they blew their futures, opportunities and careers by deciding to descend into mindless violence. Like that trainee Social Worker who decided it was time for a "shopping spree" and now no longer can be a Social Worker for obvious reasons.

Then there was that guy who got his jaw smacked in, and was being helped up by a friendly group who decided to rob him blind for their trouble.

Not really "right/left wing" issue. When you screw up majorly, you face the consequences. The "social workers/workshops/self esteem classes" are there to assist in preventing trouble and in the aftermath of such things, not a means justice.

[Adrian II]

No, no, no.

It's society - they are emasculated and feel powerless.

Not at all, those rioters are true Tories. They steal like proper bankers. Like true arms dealers, they don't mind who gets hurt. They acknowledge that there is no such thing as society.

Bail them out, I say :toff:

AII

[Louis VI the Fat]

With respect, you are letting your personal experience of another place and quite different situation colour your view. As 1970s feminism taught us, 'the personal is political'.

Statistical considerations notwithstanding, the personal experience is the political experience. These experiences colour one's political view indeed. Moreover, they should colour one's view.
Granted there's a matter of different place, different circumstances.


Speaking of second wave feminist critique, in the same vein I am more interested in the behavioural aspects of a group of men than in armchair policing. I'm sure the correct procedure and safe thing to do was to retreat. More dissapointing than that is the realisation that there is very little difference between the two groups of men in the video. Both share the same primal instincts. Like predators on the savannah, the weakness of the police troupe was smelled instantly by the other troupe. They instantly pounced. They did not need any sign, nor any level of organisation. Sheer predatory instinct was all it took for forty men to understand the other group was vulnarable prey, and to act on it in unison.
The police is merely better equipped an organised, but they operate on the same instincts. As a predatory roving band of men, they prey on what's weak, and will avoid confrontation with what's strong. There is more to that than common sense, for which it is easily mistaken. It is the reason why the protesting student will be isolated from his herd and torn to pieces by three or four police officers, and why the dangerous thug will not be singled out and can go about his business unhampered.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Not at all, those rioters are true Tories. They steal like proper bankers. Like true arms dealers, they don't mind who gets hurt. They acknowledge that there is no such thing as society.

Bail them out, I say :toff:

AIII say they showed commendable initiative. The unemployed, rather than enjoying government entitlements indefinately, they started their own private enterprises. Plunder capitalism, the continental socialist would say, to which I reply their disregard for the social and environmental impact of their private enterprises places them in the finest tradition of Anglo capitalism.

A swell bunch, they'd make excellent Tories. If they manage to keep the loot and move it offshore, they ought to receive a knighthood too.

[Adrian II]

Enough of that :laugh3:

Gentlemen, meet Judge Dredd (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/13/us/13lapd.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all?src=tp).

AII

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Not at all, those rioters are true Tories. They steal like proper bankers. Like true arms dealers, they don't mind who gets hurt. They acknowledge that there is no such thing as society.

Bail them out, I say :toff:

AII

Good Thatcherites, not Tories.

One must simply hope that, deep-down, there is more Whig and Tory in the Conservatives today than Thatcharite. With any luck the episode will ensure the latter are never electable again.

Greed is evil.


Speaking of second wave feminist critique, in the same vein I am more interested in the behavioural aspects of a group of men than in armchair policing. I'm sure the correct procedure and safe thing to do was to retreat. More dissapointing than that is the realisation that there is very little difference between the two groups of men in the video. Both share the same primal instincts. Like predators on the savannah, the weakness of the police troupe was smelled instantly by the other troupe. They instantly pounced. They did not need any sign, nor any level of organisation. Sheer predatory instinct was all it took for forty men to understand the other group was vulnarable prey, and to act on it in unison.
The police is merely better equipped an organised, but they operate on the same instincts. As a predatory roving band of men, they prey on what's weak, and will avoid confrontation with what's strong. There is more to that than common sense, for which it is easily mistaken. It is the reason why the protesting student will be isolated from his herd and torn to pieces by three or four police officers, and why the dangerous thug will not be singled out and can go about his business unhampered.

If true, this is damning - it means the Police are just another gange, rather than a gang with morals and backbone. A single Police officer should charge at a group of three yobs, truncheon held high, robbing a granny, not join in. I blame the risk-averse Health & Safety culture, constantly accessing the risk to yourself and your comrades cannot help but whiten the liver and thin the blood.

[rory_20_uk]

Good Thatcherites, not Tories.

One must simply hope that, deep-down, there is more Whig and Tory in the Conservatives today than Thatcharite. With any luck the episode will ensure the latter are never electable again.

Greed is evil.

If true, this is damning - it means the Police are just another gang, rather than a gang with morals and backbone. A single Police officer should charge at a group of three yobs, truncheon held high, robbing a granny, not join in. I blame the risk-averse Health & Safety culture, constantly accessing the risk to yourself and your comrades cannot help but whiten the liver and thin the blood.

Thatcherism was an overreaction to the times in the 1970's which was a different sort of evil selfishness.

I agree that the Police should think of others before themselves. Members of the Armed Forces appear to be far more willing to put themselves into harm's way. Perhaps we need to have a force like the gendarme that can be deployed into situations where an officer might break a nail and hence best head off to the office to ensure they've signed the indemnity waivers in triplicate. Squaddies also get paid a lot less than Police officers.

~:smoking:

[Adrian II]

Perhaps we need to have a force like the gendarme that can be deployed into situations where an officer might break a nail

I think I found just the right men (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/264874) for your gendarme force. :mellow:

AII

[HoreTore]

I stayed in Scandinavia an extra week

The horror!!

[HoreTore]

I think I found just the right men (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/264874) for your gendarme force. :mellow:

AII

What better way to combat gangs than to give all of them free combat training?

[Beskar]

The horror!!

I liked it, actually.

[Adrian II]

What better way to combat gangs than to give all of them free combat training?

Teach these unstable, antisocial types some tactics, technical know-how and interrogation techniques, send them abroad for a year where they can shoot up the locals and then release them back into society with a big phat PTSD to chew on. That'll sort them out.

Oh wait... (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2025469/UK-riots-Liam-Bretherton-Manchester-court-trying-sell-looted-1k-guitar.html)

AII

P.S. More from Judge Dredd (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/14/bill-bratton-police-crisis-cuts):


The appointment of Bratton as a consultant on gangs by the prime minister was attacked over the weekend by Sir Hugh Orde, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers.

In a swipe at Orde, who has dismissed the call for foreign police chiefs as "simply stupid", Bratton said Orde himself was successful as an Englishman coming in as an outsider to run the police in Northern Ireland: "I find it ironical the hue and cry about outsiders," Bratton said.

He added that US police chiefs would be fired if they spoke out against politicians in the same way as Britain's top police officers have done.

:laugh4:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Teach these unstable, antisocial types some tactics, technical know-how and interrogation techniques, send them abroad for a year where they can shoot up the locals and then release them back into society with a big phat PTSD to chew on. That'll sort them out.

Oh wait... (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2025469/UK-riots-Liam-Bretherton-Manchester-court-trying-sell-looted-1k-guitar.html)

AII

P.S. More from Judge Dredd (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/14/bill-bratton-police-crisis-cuts):



:laugh4:Whoa...check out the amazing body of that girl in your link!! ~:eek:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2025777/Victorias-Secret-model-Candice-Swanepoel-struggles-contain-ample-assets.html

[Adrian II]

Whoa...check out the amazing body of that girl in your link!! ~:eek:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2025777/Victorias-Secret-model-Candice-Swanepoel-struggles-contain-ample-assets.html

La Swanepoel! Indeed, I read the Mail every day now... :rolleyes:

AII

[econ21]

birbalsingh arguing against starkey:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/katharinebirbalsingh/100100907/david-starkey-is-wrong-plain-and-simple/

That's an interesting link. On the black/white thing, I was surprised to see the figures in today's Sunday Times for educational attainment by ethnic group. Whites on free school meals were twice as likely as Afro-Caribbeans (also on free school meals) not to get five or more GCSEs. (They were the two worst performing groups: Pakistanis, Black Africans, Bangladeshis and Indians were all performing better).

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Teach these unstable, antisocial types some tactics, technical know-how and interrogation techniques, send them abroad for a year where they can shoot up the locals and then release them back into society with a big phat PTSD to chew on. That'll sort them out.

Oh wait... (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2025469/UK-riots-Liam-Bretherton-Manchester-court-trying-sell-looted-1k-guitar.html)

Most squaddies are do poorly at school, many first-generation ones join up to escape sinkhole council estates, they are reported to have an average reading age of 15. Yet, despite coming from the same demographic as the looters only one has been charged with partaking in the chaos.

Ever seen "Bad Lad's Army"?

AII


P.S. More from Judge Dredd (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/14/bill-bratton-police-crisis-cuts):



:laugh4:

Hugh Orde should be fired, the initial Police response was pathetic, if it did not take Theresa May to order all leave cancelled then they should have had a grip by night two, they didn't. Further, their has been criminal (litterally) mismanagedment of the Met, apparently only 1/5 of Met coppers are trained to deal with Public Order, that statistic should be 100%.

Further, the Police should not attack the elected government, that is a serious breach of basic democracy.

[econ21]

More dissapointing than that is the realisation that there is very little difference between the two groups of men in the video. Both share the same primal instincts.

Yes, they share the same instinct, but that is the point of training: to overcome one's instincts. The police in that video did not retreat because of instinct - they did because their commander shouted an order to pull back. And there is no way 8 of those rioters would have held formation against 40 police.

I don't know where you are getting the stuff about the police pouncing on the weak. We have seen very little, if any, police brutality during the riots. The police restraint and self-control under exceptional circumstances has been incredible.

[Papewaio]

I think you will find by looking at a few of these videos that one of the tactics is to retreat when outnumbered... Smart.

But also if you look at a few of them you will see a lot of the small shield skirmishers running around and retreating only for the mob to follow them... then moments later you will see that as the thinned out mob separates out the side streets have a lot of the heavy shield police waiting... Essentially the mob is running into traps where they can be overpowered and arrested.

It makes no sense for the police to wade in outnumbered to save material goods. Fine if they are saving lives.
But when outnumbered one has to use much more brutal force to make the total force equivalent.

In other words a large force can quietly deal with a riot with distraction techniques and wear them down with fatigue whislt a smaller force would have to use weapons.

I think the proof is in how few people have been injured or killed. The tactics have been fine given limited resources. The limited resources needs to be looked at and that is where the buck stops with management.

As for root cause, I agree that bankers, business men and politicians have all ripped off many a country. I think the media has a part to play, and a sense of entitlement without effort is also to blame.

Hospitals are not hotels for the lazy. Why on earth is welfare treated as a lifestyle choice?

I was disgusted with the manner in which news of the world gathered information. I was more appalled with the violence in hitting an eighty year old in parliament... It should have been an early indication as to the current inability of police to protect.

Smart pilfering is one thing and it should be dealt with. Violent looting should also be dealt with. Both shouldn't use the excuse that others were doing it. In sports in Aus you can get penalized more for joining a figh then the two already in it... In other words there needs to be a force in law to increase with the scale of violence and to acknowledge the networking that some of this utilized (not to shut it down, but to be used in sentencing of organized crime).

[Fragony]

Whoa...check out the amazing body of that girl in your link!! ~:eek:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2025777/Victorias-Secret-model-Candice-Swanepoel-struggles-contain-ample-assets.html

Pretty pretty Candice, by far the prettiest of the angels. They are all hot (although Allesandra Ambrosia annoys me)

EDIT, I really shouldn't but I laughed. It's funny in the context of Camaron's 'return to Brittish values' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9_YhKbrhnY Sorry if it's not suited for the Backroom as it could be considered a call for violence

[Adrian II]

It makes no sense for the police to wade in outnumbered to save material goods. Fine if they are saving lives.

Come on, they didn't have a clue. It's a miracle there haven't been more fatal casualties with all those buildings set on fire, peoples' homes invaded by gangs of thugs, etcetera. You not talking about a few shops being looted, but entire streets being devastated.

https://img714.imageshack.us/img714/2227/tottenham7.jpg


And on a related note, there is an excellent comment (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/janetdaley/100100978/how-much-ignorance-can-there-be-about-bill-bratton/) in today's Torygraph about Judge Dredd:


How much ignorance can there be about Bill Bratton?

I would have thought that the miracles wrought by Bill Bratton in his remarkable policing career were now so familiar in their details that it would be impossible for British police authorities to utter inanities about him and his methods. But no, apparently not.

In a fit of hysterical defensiveness over their handling of the riots, various police chiefs (who must not be confused with their hapless rank-and-file officers who have no political axe to grind) have made statements about the importation of Mr Bratton which are quite stunningly ill-informed. The top prize must certainly go to Sir Hugh Orde who ridiculed the idea that we might have anything to learn about gangs from a man who comes from “an area that has 400 of them”.

I would have thought that a man who had managed to dramatically reduce the crime rate in an area that had 400 gangs would be precisely the one you would want to turn to for advice about dealing with them. Sir Hugh suggests as well that the European Convention on Human Rights may prevent Britain adopting the Bratten “zero tolerance” policing strategy. There are two obvious comments about this observation. First, if the ECHR genuinely does prevent the sort of effective policing techniques which have transformed civil order in the US, then it is time for a political decision to opt out of it. Second, Mr Bratton himself and those who have worked with him do not use the term “zero tolerance” which smacks of repression and vengeance. They have always referred to their approach as “quality of life” policing, by which they mean cracking down on the sort of anti-social acts (vandalism, graffiti, intimidatory behaviour in the streets) which terrorise people in their own neighbourhoods. Doing this, they discovered in New York, actually prevents crime by undermining the attitudes of casual delinquency which encourage it.

On a point of information, Bill Bratton is not to be confused with Rudy Giuliani, the New York mayor under whom he brought about his first legendary policing revolution. Mr Bratton is a Democrat, not a Republican. His political position is closer to that of Bill Clinton than to George Bush. When I first met him years ago, he told me that the accomplishment of which he was most proud in New York was that his policing had restored a normal night life to Harlem. Where the innocent residents of that blighted community had once had to barricade themselves in their homes after dark because lawless, homicidal drug gangs ruled the streets, there were now restaurants, night clubs and social centres thriving in their midst.

How dare the police chiefs of Britain proclaim that they have nothing to learn from this man.


AII

[Papewaio]

Come on, they didn't have a clue. It's a miracle there haven't been more fatal casualties with all those buildings set on fire, peoples' homes invaded by gangs of thugs, etcetera. You not talking about a few shops being looted, but entire streets being devastated.
AII

And until the higher ups put more on the street what would have been the point of badly outnumbered police either being beaten to a pulp or resorting to using extreme force (when they were effectively neutered after the last big demonstrations... again a problem with those higher up not able to differentiate situations).

The situation was contained as well as it could based on manpower. The guys in the field tactics were fine given their numbers. The problem is the lack of total numbers put in place.

I'm all for JD. The current commissioner was criminally incompetent in getting enough police in place fast enough, he should be out on his ear on a reduced pension.

[Adrian II]

And until the higher ups put more on the street what would have been the point of badly outnumbered police either being beaten to a pulp or resorting to using extreme force (when they were effectively neutered after the last big demonstrations... again a problem with those higher up not able to differentiate situations).

Those demonstrations were of a different order.

What we saw last week was gangs and improvised groups of thugs invading homes and burning down entire streets. Yes, police should have used rubber bullets or regular guns to prevent innocent people from burning to death, being raped or beaten to a pulp. How is that so hard to comprehend? And the situation in Birmingham would have been much, much worse if it hadn't been for one man named Tariq Jahan who prevented a full-blown race riot. Birmingham police aren't heroes, they're lucky bastards.

AII

[Kagemusha]

Those demonstrations were of a different order.

What we saw last week was gangs and improvised groups of thugs invading homes and burning down entire streets. Yes, police should have used rubber bullets or regular guns to prevent innocent people from burning to death, being raped or beaten to a pulp. How is that so hard to comprehend? And the situation in Birmingham would have been much, much worse if it hadn't been for one man named Tariq Jahan who prevented a full-blown race riot. Birmingham police aren't heroes, they're lucky bastards.

AII

The problem with this is that the police can only do what they are allowed to do and at the start of the riots they had neither allowed to use rubber bullets nor water cannons, so the blame should go where it lays.On the British leadership, who did not react quick enough and did not give the British police force more tools to break the riots.

[Adrian II]

The problem with this is that the police can only do what they are allowed to do and at the start of the riots they had neither allowed to use rubber bullets nor water cannons, so the blame should go where it lays.On the British leadership, who did not react quick enough and did not give the British police force more tools to break the riots.

As I understand it, they were allowed as well as equipped to use tear gas and rubber bullets from day one. Even water cannon, although these seem to be unwieldy and ineffective in a running battle.

AII

[Kagemusha]

As I understand it, they were allowed as well as equipped to use tear gas and rubber bullets from day one. Even water cannon, although these seem to be unwieldy and ineffective in a running battle.

AII

Now i apologise if i might be remembering wrong, but i remember reading after many days of riots how the British prime minister allowed the police more means to fight the riots. If they had these means from the start. Why would have the PM announced that?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/10/david-cameron-water-cannon-police-riots

[Adrian II]

Now i apologise if i might be remembering wrong, but i remember reading after many days of riots how the British prime minister allowed the police more means to fight the riots. If they had these means from the start. Why would have the PM announced that?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/10/david-cameron-water-cannon-police-riots

I believe the use of baton rounds needs to be sanctioned by the Met Police chief only. Not by the PM or any other government minister.

AII

[rory_20_uk]

The police's reluctance to ever use these things means that their use is suddenly blown out to be a massive issue. If only one or two tear gas rounds were used on average every year then there would not be this hangup (rubber bullets is harder to justify "normalising" in this way).

We need some new non-lethal weaponry, like quick setting foam to spray rather than water.

I liked one idea which was to have an "indelible ink cannon" - spray that and arrest at one's leisure. Perfect? I'm sure it wouldn't be - but a massive inconvenience.

~:smoking:

[Vladimir]

I liked one idea which was to have an "indelible ink cannon" - spray that and arrest at one's leisure. Perfect? I'm sure it wouldn't be - but a massive inconvenience.

~:smoking:

This is brilliant. Like exploding dye packs for bank robberies. Maybe an organic (carbon based) UV dye. If you're going to use water you might as well put something in it to ID people and goods.

[Adrian II]

(rubber bullets is harder to justify "normalising" in this way).

I may be the only one to see things this way, but kids throwing Molotov cocktails into a building where people live is not normal either in my book.

AII

P.S. I love it when Charlie Brooker waxes indignant. It's the sordidness of it all that got to him, and he nails it:


Why the obsession with trainers? Trainers are [peep]. You stick them on your feet and walk around for a while 'til they go out of fashion. Whoopie doo. Yes, I know they're also status symbols, but anyone who tries to impress others with their shoe choice is a dismally pathetic character indeed – and anyone genuinely impressed by said footwear has all the soaring spirit of a punnet of moss. There's no life to be found in "look at my shoes". There just isn't.

link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/14/charlie-brooker-prevent-more-riots)

[rory_20_uk]

I may be the only one to see things this way, but kids throwing Molotov cocktails into a building where people live is not normal either in my book.

I wholeheartedly agree. I can't fully comprehend how the police can have such difficulties in grading their responses to what is happening (although I do accept that in several places there were not enough officers).

Where there were so few officers it would have made more sense to group into units that can do something as opposed to be so thinly spread they were only observing. A platoon? Combat squad? And yes, if the thinking is along those lines, then bring in those who are trained along those lines: the Rubicon has been crossed. "Please disperse peacefully" has had its chance. Get the military police involved: "you have the right to remain unconscious. Any weapons you have will be used against you. When we've arrested you and your mates you have the right to an attorney. If we bother to waste time asking questions you will still have the right to stop answering at any time until you talk to an attorney. You will soon have the right to collect litter for several weeks if you want to keep the right to eat and sleep". etc etc.

~:smoking:

[Adrian II]

I wholeheartedly agree. I can't fully comprehend how the police can have such difficulties in grading their responses to what is happening (although I do accept that in several places there were not enough officers).

Where there were so few officers it would have made more sense to group into units that can do something as opposed to be so thinly spread they were only observing. A platoon? Combat squad? And yes, if the thinking is along those lines, then bring in those who are trained along those lines: the Rubicon has been crossed. "Please disperse peacefully" has had its chance. Get the military police involved: "you have the right to remain unconscious. Any weapons you have will be used against you. When we've arrested you and your mates you have the right to an attorney. If we bother to waste time asking questions you will still have the right to stop answering at any time until you talk to an attorney. You will soon have the right to collect litter for several weeks if you want to keep the right to eat and sleep". etc etc.

~:smoking:

I like the one about the litter. But keep the military out of it, they're a totally different set and their rules should not apply here.

By the way I'm hearing more good things (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/michaelweiss/100100998/i-grew-up-in-bill-brattons-new-york-hed-be-a-brilliant-choice-as-met-commissioner/) about Judge Dredd. Seems like the Yanks have some coppers with actual brains.

If the Brits won't have Bratton, can we have him for The Neds? :rolleyes:

AII

[Vladimir]

By the way I'm hearing more good things (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/michaelweiss/100100998/i-grew-up-in-bill-brattons-new-york-hed-be-a-brilliant-choice-as-met-commissioner/) about Judge Dredd. Seems like the Yanks have some coppers with actual brains.
AII

Contrary to what some vermin varmints and sensationalized journalists like to talk about there are quite a few of those.

[Adrian II]

Contrary to what some vermin varmints and sensationalized journalists like to talk about there are quite a few of those.

That's because many Europeans have stoopid ideas about the rest of the world, much like many Americans, Brazilians or Chinese I suppose.

Headlines usually do little to dispel such prejudice. Most people will associate American policing with zero tolerance, three strikes and you're out, chain gangs and chasing blacks as a form of 'reality television'. Not very inspiring, one might say.

But Bratton seems to be something else.

AII

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Now i apologise if i might be remembering wrong, but i remember reading after many days of riots how the British prime minister allowed the police more means to fight the riots. If they had these means from the start. Why would have the PM announced that?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/10/david-cameron-water-cannon-police-riots

The Water Canon are in Northern Ireland, rubber bullets and tear gas were always available. The major problem was probably the lack of Met Chief, what with Slow and Steady boss and Yates of the Yard having both fled in disgrace the chap left holding the fort was not up to it, apparently neither is Sire Hugh Orde.

In other news, Bill Bratton is willing to take British Citizenship: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/14/bill-bratton-police-crisis-cuts

Some of you may remember that Bratton was talked about before the riots. The pathetic showing from the locals and the political sniping afterwards have apparently allowed him to formally throw his hat into the ring. Under the circumstances I can't see the Home Office really being able to stop him from applying.

[Husar]

That's because many Europeans have stoopid ideas about the rest of the world, much like many Americans, Brazilians or Chinese I suppose.

Headlines usually do little to dispel such prejudice. Most people will associate American policing with zero tolerance, three strikes and you're out, chain gangs and chasing blacks as a form of 'reality television'. Not very inspiring, one might say.

But Bratton seems to be something else.

AII

The police brutality thread wasn't started by a European, our american friends only have themselves to blame. :shrug:

Agree with a lot of what you say though.

[Adrian II]

We need some new non-lethal weaponry, like quick setting foam to spray rather than water.

LOL. Somehow I missed this the first time round.

How about fast-foaming *and* painting (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN-3pjvjVJw) the rioters.

AII

[rory_20_uk]

LOL. Somehow I missed this the first time round.

How about fast-foaming *and* painting (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN-3pjvjVJw) the rioters.

Oh, there is a slight chance the rioters might die... Oh a win-win.

~:smoking:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Fast Foam - hard in sixty seconds

expands to fill a 500ml hole or void.THEY PROUDLY ADVERTISE WITH THAT AND THEN THEY WONDER WHY THEIR GIRLS ALL DREAM OF LIVING IN FRANCE



....sixty seconds...sixty seconds...fills 500ml...mon dieu...me I take 1.35 seconds to inflate to fill the entire Thames estuary

[Louis VI the Fat]

Also, here's how the police should've dealt with the protesters:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04clpd7h0b0

[Adrian II]

Also, here's how the police should've dealt with the protesters:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04clpd7h0b0


AII :smg: Louis VI the Fat

[Papewaio]

The police brutality thread wasn't started by a European, our american friends only have themselves to blame. :shrug:


Since when was I an American? And even if the first post is about Americans you have to understand that:
a) per capita makes a difference.
c) Crime scales up with the size of a city (its greater then 1:1)

[Centurion1]

Since when was I an American? And even if the first post is about Americans you have to understand that:
a) per capita makes a difference.
c) Crime scales up with the size of a city (its greater then 1:1)

both very true and when you look at per capita the US is located below the UK. And you have to factor in a lot of what precisely is considered a crime in the US.

as for the city thing yeah and there are quite a few very very large cities in the US. Most crime is located in cities. The more urbanized a society the more common certain crimes become.

oh and you seem to have forgotten b...........

[Adrian II]

oh and you seem to have forgotten b...........

Pape often thinks faster than his own shadow. :bow:

AII

[Louis VI the Fat]

Pape often thinks faster than his own shadow. :bow:

AIII've got only two things to add to that:

1) Pape for global overlord!

[Adrian II]

I've got only two things to add to that:

1) Pape for global overlord!

Others, as we can see, have trouble keep up with their own shadow. :mellow:

AII

[Papewaio]

That's because I'm a squid shaped tachyon field going backwards in time. :yes:

[Husar]

Since when was I an American? And even if the first post is about Americans you have to understand that:
a) per capita makes a difference.
c) Crime scales up with the size of a city (its greater then 1:1)

:laugh4:

Sorry, I keep thinking CR started it... :creep:

[Adrian II]

That's because I'm a squid shaped tachyon field going backwards in time. :yes:

Awesome. What do you guys smoke in Syd? :hippie:

[Sasaki Kojiro]

This site has nice pictures, they had an earlier photoset as well:

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/08/london_riots_update.html

https://i52.tinypic.com/2dighfs.jpg

http://i53.tinypic.com/zn0yll.jpg

[Montmorency]

Huh, so prospective directors of WW2 films should let rioters go to town on their sets?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Seems like someone's poked his head out from under the bridge again.

I never said cops didn't have brains. Just that cop culture is rotten and most will cover up abuse. One needs only take a look at the police abuses thread and compare how many instances of brutality are revealed via video shot by citizens versus police officers coming forward when they observe brutality.

As I recall, some folks like to post provocations in that thread and then flee when questioned. A truly formidable debate style.

Though I don't think Bratton would lead to any increase in brutality.

I do think the police response was dismal, and being outnumbered by rioters was no excuse. They were looters, after all, and would have run when confronted. Some poor leadership.

CR

[Beskar]

Seems like someone's poked his head out from under the bridge again.

I never said cops didn't have brains. Just that cop culture is rotten and most will cover up abuse. One needs only take a look at the police abuses thread and compare how many instances of brutality are revealed via video shot by citizens versus police officers coming forward when they observe brutality.

As I recall, some folks like to post provocations in that thread and then flee when questioned. A truly formidable debate style.

Though I don't think Bratton would lead to any increase in brutality.

I do think the police response was dismal, and being outnumbered by rioters was no excuse. They were looters, after all, and would have run when confronted. Some poor leadership.

CR

Don't confuse British police (who are very accountable to the citizenship) with America police (who aren't).

The restrained Police is because of various watch-dogs and public accountability making sure they don't act too heavy handed. This is a clear case of not having enough freedom to act, thus pretty much stood there while crime was rife. However, it is an adaptable learning process, so it will improve over time.

[Adrian II]

Don't confuse British police (who are very accountable to the citizenship) with America police (who aren't).

The restrained Police is because of various watch-dogs and public accountability making sure they don't act too heavy handed. This is a clear case of not having enough freedom to act, thus pretty much stood there while crime was rife. However, it is an adaptable learning process, so it will improve over time.

Oh God, someone thinks the US has no watchdogs or public accountability :rolleyes:

You should read some of the articles on Bratton I linked to.

AII

[Furunculus]

brendan o'niell on starkey's 'blacking' of the masses:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100101050/starkey-racism-row-it-is-the-political-elites-ceaseless-denigration-of-white-working-class-culture-that-has-turned-kids-black/

[Vladimir]

That's because many Europeans have stoopid ideas about the rest of the world, much like many Americans, Brazilians or Chinese I suppose.

Headlines usually do little to dispel such prejudice. Most people will associate American policing with zero tolerance, three strikes and you're out, chain gangs and chasing blacks as a form of 'reality television'. Not very inspiring, one might say.

But Bratton seems to be something else.

AII

I looked at that again this morning and wanted to make sure that wasn't anything against you, just a friendly jab at the Rabbit.

[econ21]

86% of those arrested for rioting or looting had previous criminal convictions. Like the similar statistic for those without occupations, this makes the event seem a bit less inexplicable. It was not - in the main - ordinary people going off the rails (although there were quite a few such cases), but criminals taking the opportunity to commit more crime.

[Adrian II]

86% of those arrested for rioting or looting had previous criminal convictions. Like the similar statistic for those without occupations, this makes the event seem a bit less inexplicable. It was not - in the main - ordinary people going off the rails (although there were quite a few such cases), but criminals taking the opportunity to commit more crime.

I've seen more disturbing statistics over the past days.

Fifty percent of British parents did not know where their children are in the evenings or with whom. Some 45 per cent of 15 year old boys spent four or more evening a week hanging about ‘with friends’ compared to just 17 per cent in France.

Around 50% of blackkids and 63% of white kids of 14 have a reading level of age 7.

One third of the British population has a criminal conviction before the age of 40.

Not encouraging.

AII

[econ21]

One third of the British population has a criminal conviction before the age of 40.

Not encouraging.

Yes, I was wondering about that: how many people in the riot areas, whether rioting or not, had criminal records? I fear it may be rather high, although one third nationally sounds rather high - does it include driving offences? I found stats for 2% of those aged 18-20 being convicted or formally cautioned for a criminal offence in 2009. But of course, such convictions will accumulate over the years.

http://www.poverty.org.uk/33/index.shtml

Obviously the previous week was not encouraging, but I am not so sure about the longer term trends. Crime was down 43% under the Labour government:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7891731/Crime-falls-to-record-low.html

Educational achievement also improved, although perhaps not for the lowest achieving 17%.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CEIQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nrdc.org.uk%2Fdownload2.asp%3Ff%3D4690%26e%3Dpdf&rct=j&q=Greg%20Brooks%20literacy%20trends%202009&ei=tXdKTsPiBsm3hQe-2eGeCA&usg=AFQjCNEV1w0LxVjlefcSmlRZ7kL-qRcy8g

[Rhyfelwyr]

The funny thing with Bratton is that even though people are taking this reactionary offence to importing his "American" techniques, he already has a CBE from the Queen for 20 years cooperation with the British police.

[Vladimir]

The funny thing with Bratton is that even though people are taking this reactionary offence to importing his "American" techniques, he already has a CBE from the Queen for 20 years cooperation with the British police.

Which "American" techniques? With 50 states and 300 million people it's hard to know exactly what they're talking about.

[Centurion1]

Which "American" techniques? With 50 states and 300 million people it's hard to know exactly what they're talking about.

lol municipalities have their own police forces for gods sakes. The only standard thing is the disparaging terms they are addressed by.

Also adrian those statistics are some of the most depressing things I have ever read.

[Adrian II]

lol municipalities have their own police forces for gods sakes. The only standard thing is the disparaging terms they are addressed by.

Also adrian those statistics are some of the most depressing things I have ever read.

Indeed. Usually statistics show up aspects and trends that you wouldn't spot at first glance, but even British experts are struggling to bring up usuful correlations with regard to these riots. For instance there is high youth unemployment in these areas, but there is also high welfare dependency. In fact practically every child in those neighbourhoods and many parents as well are 'beneficiaries' of state intervention, sometimes right down to the level of daily food intake.

And look at the silly day to day policing that's going on in these wards.

I just read a piece by someone from a civil liberties group:


The amorality of criminal justice is also embodied in on-the-spot fines (penalty notices for disorder), which are currently running at around 200,000 a year. On-the-spot-fines are essentially parking tickets for bad behaviour, and encompass everything from quite serious offences such as theft or criminal damage to completely innocuous actions. As director of a civil liberties group, I’ve recently encountered a woman fined for handing out leaflets about her comedy show and a man fined for putting up a poster for a coffee morning. Fines have been dealt out to a woman for feeding the ducks, a man for smoking in his own van, and another man for blowing his nose at the traffic lights.

Policing the innocent, ignoring the riotous (http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10987/)



That's policing in the UK in the year 2011. I mean, words fail me...

AII

[Sasaki Kojiro]

The amorality of criminal justice is also embodied in on-the-spot fines (penalty notices for disorder), which are currently running at around 200,000 a year. On-the-spot-fines are essentially parking tickets for bad behaviour, and encompass everything from quite serious offences such as theft or criminal damage to completely innocuous actions. As director of a civil liberties group, I’ve recently encountered a woman fined for handing out leaflets about her comedy show and a man fined for putting up a poster for a coffee morning. Fines have been dealt out to a woman for feeding the ducks, a man for smoking in his own van, and another man for blowing his nose at the traffic lights.


Ok, but what are they GENERALLY used for? Don't just tell me the 5 worst out of 200,000.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ok, but what are they GENERALLY used for? Don't just tell me the 5 worst out of 200,000.

Friend of mine got one for dropping a cigarette butt in the streat, seventy quid - no appeal. I mean, it's not that he got fined so much as the fact it was such a huge amount when the "Enforement Officer" could have just asked him to pick the sodding thing up.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Which "American" techniques? With 50 states and 300 million people it's hard to know exactly what they're talking about.

I put it in quotation marks for a reason, that's just the rhetoric being used by people that are outraged by this.

[gaelic cowboy]

I put it in quotation marks for a reason, that's just the rhetoric being used by people that are outraged by this.

If you ask me the man has form unlike Hugh Orde who did not impress me when he was in the North.

If you ask me he got the job cos the North was quiet anyway and they equated that with him being perfect for a bigger job

[PanzerJaeger]

brendan o'niell on starkey's 'blacking' of the masses:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100101050/starkey-racism-row-it-is-the-political-elites-ceaseless-denigration-of-white-working-class-culture-that-has-turned-kids-black/

Mr. Starkey will of course be roundly condemned for such a terrible breach of political correctness, but if black culture in Britain is anything like it is in the US, he is essentially correct. It has become 'a particular sort of violent, destructive, nihilistic, gangster culture', and many working class white kids have similarly adopted (http://www.mnsu.edu/urc/journal/URC2007journal/Lemley.pdf) its music, symbology, dress, and - more dangerously - its outlook.

[Montmorency]

Mh-m, because all blacks share the same culture. Besides which, stereotypical gangster culture isn't nihilstic in any way, unless I've been totally misled as to its substance.

[PanzerJaeger]

Mh-m, because all blacks share the same culture.

It's amazing how similar they appear to be, considering the very different historical and geographic circumstances that are part of the respective American and British black experience. Blame it on a shared lower class existence and the promulgation of similar media themes across the Western world. :shrug:

Obviously, not every black person adheres to the culture, but then, no one ever suggested as much. That observation should not be used to obscure the origins and primary purveyors of the culture. For better or worse, gangsta culture is the primary expression of the black 'collective' in the Western world. I've read some authors argue that it is all the work of white-dominated media conglomerates, but I also live among blacks who readily live the lifestyle, so I'm a bit skeptical. Whether it is life imitating art or vice versa, it isn't a particularly productive culture from any objective viewpoint.

As to its nihilism, I assumed Mr. Starkey was speaking of the moral variant.

[Montmorency]

Blame it on a shared lower class existence...

Oh dear.


Obviously, not every black person adheres to the culture, but then, no one ever suggested as much. That observation should not be used to obscure the origins and primary purveyors of the culture. For better or worse, gangsta culture is the primary expression of the black 'collective' in the Western world. I've read some authors argue that it is all the work of white-dominated media conglomerates, but I also live among blacks who readily live the lifestyle, so I'm a bit skeptical. Whether it is life imitating art or vice versa, it isn't a particularly productive culture from any objective viewpoint.

The black collective. Indeed. Let's ignore the the middle-class blacks, the rich blacks, and the Jamaican blacks, and the...


As to its nihilism, I assumed Mr. Starkey was speaking of the moral variant.

Oh, yeah, moral nihilism = gangsters. Right, sure, makes sense.

Except, the blacks you refer to have a highly developed sense of morality. The fact that their morals are unlike those to which you subscribe does not change this.

[Papewaio]

All Blacks ROCK!

Until they choke at the World Cup...

[PanzerJaeger]

The black collective. Indeed. Let's ignore the the middle-class blacks, the rich blacks, and the Jamaican blacks, and the...

Why wouldn't we ignore them? They are not the blacks in question. It has long been noted that successful blacks in Western society (outside of the visible but highly numerically limited sports and entertainment stars) are far better at assimilating into white culture. Blacks who embrace the black culture even have a term for it: acting white (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting_white). You'll find that members of the black middle and upper classes embrace cultural attributes that have traditionally been associated with white culture. Barack Obama, Condaleeza Rice, Colin Powell, and Thurgood Marshall are all notable examples.

Whites embracing black culture and blacks embracing white culture does call into question the usefulness of those descriptors, but that's just a game of semantics and political correctness - one in which Mr. Starkey seems to have little patience. The point is that black/hip hop/gansta culture or whatever you want to call it may be entertaining, but it is not a particularly viable lifestyle for average people.


Oh, yeah, moral nihilism = gangsters. Right, sure, makes sense.

Except, the blacks you refer to have a highly developed sense of morality. The fact that their morals are unlike those to which you subscribe does not change this.

I do not subscribe to meta-ethical relativism. :shrug:

[a completely inoffensive name]

I need a minute to think about my post. My head is still spinning from PJ's redefinition of the terms for his argument.

[Montmorency]

Black culture, white culture - no matter how many times you repeat these terms, they will come no closer to actually existing.

[PanzerJaeger]

Black culture, white culture - no matter how many times you repeat these terms, they will come no closer to actually existing.

Oh but they do. I understand why you don't want them to, though. Ugly implications, I know. May I suggest this text (http://books.google.com/books/about/New_ethnicities_and_urban_culture.html?id=mW906f1B9zkC). It's awfully dense, but pretty enlightening.

[Fragony]

Black culture, white culture - no matter how many times you repeat these terms, they will come no closer to actually existing.

It was kinda badly worded but not that far off in reality, he should have said black urban culture, or rap-culture.

[Banquo's Ghost]

All Blacks ROCK!

Until they choke at the World Cup...

:laugh4:

Well, I appreciated it anyway.

[gaelic cowboy]

All Blacks ROCK!

Until they choke at the World Cup...

not too many rugger buggers about on the org I see :laugh:

[Adrian II]

I guess Panzer isn't familiar with chav 'culture' and so he simply transplants US gangsta patterns onto the UK.

One visit to a British football stadium would cure that.

AII

https://img843.imageshack.us/img843/9738/chavs1.jpg

[Rhyfelwyr]

I think there was some attention-whoring going on with Mr. Starkey there. I guess you can generalise and talk about 'black culture' (in the UK sense) but its becomes a bit silly when you then have to say 'well some blacks are white and some whites are black'. Conflating skin colour with culture like that isn't very helpful.

Although Adrian, chav culture and gangster culture are completely different things. Different dress, different music, different attitudes etc. All the ones I say in the riot pics looked like the gangsta types, and the vast majority I seen were black.

If you want 100% white deprivation and social problems (and gangs etc) just come to Scotland or Northern Ireland, outside of the cities we have 100% white ghettos.

[Strike For The South]

Black culture is really just poor southern culture transplanted into the industry cities of the North and rust belt. Then again poverty and the absolute high crime that is media portryal of blacks in America have more to do with there "plight" than anything else

I blame Lincoln

Will the Spurs ever play a game?

[Vladimir]

Black culture is really just poor southern culture transplanted into the industry cities of the North and rust belt. Then again poverty and the absolute high crime that is media portryal of blacks in America have more to do with there "plight" than anything else

I blame Lincoln

Will the Spurs ever play a game?

More to do with how people perceive themselves and each other, but you're essentially right. Then you add urban elements into the mix.

[Strike For The South]

More to do with how people perceive themselves and each other, but you're essentially right. Then you add urban elements into the mix.

And America that starts with being inindated with television, radio, and print. We are pigeonholed before we start school. We know how we are to act, how others are to act, and what to buy

[Beskar]

Oh God, someone thinks the US has no watchdogs or public accountability :rolleyes:

You should read some of the articles on Bratton I linked to.

AII

From what I heard from American posters, they say as such except for a couple of cases which are purely internal and not independent like the IPCC.

[Adrian II]

From what I heard from American posters, they say as such except for a couple of cases which are purely internal and not independent like the IPCC.

Read up on the ACLU then. Bratton couldn't so much as fart or they would be all over him and his department. And by the time he was done, they were among his fans.

AII

[Vladimir]

From what I heard from American posters, they say as such except for a couple of cases which are purely internal and not independent like the IPCC.

According to Top Gear, Alabama hates foreigners. :yes:

[Centurion1]

Look "black culture" should never be referred to as such. Rather it should be known as "gangbanger" or "urban ghetto" culture. Race is only a factor because of the low economic status of the black demographic as a whole. There are poor whites who are virtually identical to their black counterparts, individuals such as the rapper Eminem is an example of this. Hispanics due to their economic placement can also have alot of "gangbanger" culture present in their young chollos though the older generations are usually not participants in that culture. Poor Asian areas with refugees are often like this as well.

As with almost any racial issue everything derives from the economic disparity you can sometimes find between ethnic and racial groups.

[rory_20_uk]

Look "black culture" should never be referred to as such. Rather it should be known as "gangbanger" or "urban ghetto" culture. Race is only a factor because of the low economic status of the black demographic as a whole. There are poor whites who are virtually identical to their black counterparts, individuals such as the rapper Eminem is an example of this. Hispanics due to their economic placement can also have alot of "gangbanger" culture present in their young chollos though the older generations are usually not participants in that culture. Poor Asian areas with refugees are often like this as well.

As with almost any racial issue everything derives from the economic disparity you can sometimes find between ethnic and racial groups.

True to a point. But to naturalise one can get referred to a "coconut" or "banana" black or Asian respectively - white on the inside. These are never terms of flattery.

Oddly, being true to one's black roots is not wearing hardly any clothes and wearing plenty of paint a la the Massai tribe, and not being a banana is not having a shaved head and topknot whilst wearing pyjamas. Why wearing a suit is white I'm not sure as after all a minority of white people do this anyway.

~:smoking:

[Vladimir]

True to a point. But to naturalise one can get referred to a "coconut" or "banana" black or Asian respectively - white on the inside. These are never terms of flattery.

Oddly, being true to one's black roots is not wearing hardly any clothes and wearing plenty of paint a la the Massai tribe, and not being a banana is not having a shaved head and topknot whilst wearing pyjamas. Why wearing a suit is white I'm not sure as after all a minority of white people do this anyway.

~:smoking:

So are you saying I'm a minority?

[Adrian II]

So are you saying I'm a minority?

I guess we're a minority of two, Vlad. :shrug:

AII

[Papewaio]

True to a point. But to naturalise one can get referred to a "coconut" or "banana" black or Asian respectively - white on the inside. These are never terms of flattery.


I've heard a lot of Asian's refer to themselves as either ABC's or Banana's in a positive manner here... they're also prone to call newbie's FOBs.

[rory_20_uk]

So are you saying I'm a minority?

I'm a white, male GP. In that respect I'm definitely a minority.

~:smoking:

[Vladimir]

I'm a white, male GP. In that respect I'm definitely a minority.

~:smoking:

Who seems to love smoking. :laugh4:

[Montmorency]

A scholarly article on riots. (http://www.cracked.com/article_19348_the-5-most-embarrassing-things-angry-mobs-have-rioted-over.html)

[Furunculus]

UK riots: It’s not about criminality and cuts, it’s about culture... and this is only the beginning - David Starkey - Telegraph Comment

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8711621/UK-riots-Its-not-about-criminality-and-cuts-its-about-culture...-and-this-is-only-the-beginning.html

frankly i never understood the witch-hunt against the Newsnight interview, and i still don't.

nothing he said was was racist, nor was it wrong in any significant measure.

[InsaneApache]

It's because he's not a leftist. Compare and contrast his comments with Abbotts last year about West Indian women. You see it works like this...

Leftists = cuddly, compassionate, caring fluffy bunny.

Rightist = hardfaced, evil, spiteful and selfish.

Once you get that, it all makes sense.

[Furunculus]

wasn't it something about west-indian women being willing to go to the wall for their children, the implication that other mums would not...?

[InsaneApache]

Indeed.

Although you can't be a racist if your black.

Doublethink.

[Furunculus]

it's a wonderful society we live in.

kind of makes me cheer starkey on, for only by exposing the hypocrisy at significant personal cost can the stupidity be challenged.

[InsaneApache]

it's a wonderful society we live in.

kind of makes me cheer starkey on, for only by exposing the hypocrisy at significant personal cost can the stupidity be challenged.

I see Red 'hug a terrorist' Ken has been comparing himself to Hitler and Boris as Churchill. Well that's how I read it. :book:

[Furunculus]

i'd read the same too this morning.

[InsaneApache]

https://img824.imageshack.us/img824/4909/mastercardforminorities.jpg (https://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/824/mastercardforminorities.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (https://imageshack.us)

[Hosakawa Tito]

Indeed.

Although you can't be a racist if your black.

Doublethink.

The US top law enforcement official (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/mar/3/eric-holders-liberal-racism/) confirms and approves this statement.

[Adrian II]

frankly i never understood the witch-hunt against the Newsnight interview, and i still don't. nothing he said was was racist, nor was it wrong in any significant measure.

Calling gang culture 'black' and calling a decent black man like Lammy 'white' was simply racist. It doesn't matter if someone in the Daily Mail agreed with Starkey. Or that some black commentator echoed some of his comments (without endorsing his racism by the way). Or that Ed Miliband made a fool of himself on some other occasion. Those are just diversions, fallacies to cover up his mistake.

If he merely wanted to express that some blacks are integrated into society and others are not, then he should have said that and not gone beyond the point of no return. Now that he's confirmed his initial remarks, he'll have to live with the accusation.

AII

[Ironside]

UK riots: It’s not about criminality and cuts, it’s about culture... and this is only the beginning - David Starkey - Telegraph Comment

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8711621/UK-riots-Its-not-about-criminality-and-cuts-its-about-culture...-and-this-is-only-the-beginning.html

frankly i never understood the witch-hunt against the Newsnight interview, and i still don't.

nothing he said was was racist, nor was it wrong in any significant measure.

Michelle Bachmann is part of a uniquely American phenoma, ergo she can be said to be the American culture, chavs are British, ergo they represent British culture. So it's perfectly ok to call evangelical christians (fundamentalist version) as American culture and the chav culture for British culture don't you think?

Or still not getting why calling gangsta culture for black culture is stupid (and possibly racist)?

[Adrian II]

Or still not getting why calling gangsta culture for black culture is stupid (and possibly racist)?

Because culture has nothing to do with genes. Simple as that.

AII

[Centurion1]

Because culture has nothing to do with genes. Simple as that.

AII

Racial identity? And identifying where said sub cultures originated from? No one is saying or implyin all blacks desire to wear grills and drive low riders simply that poor blacks in american ghettos originated the culture and it was adopted by a larger market when successful rappers and sports stars came out of the ghetto and continued to live within that sub culture.

[Centurion1]

Michelle Bachmann is part of a uniquely American phenoma, ergo she can be said to be the American culture, chavs are British, ergo they represent British culture. So it's perfectly ok to call evangelical christians (fundamentalist version) as American culture and the chav culture for British culture don't you think?

Or still not getting why calling gangsta culture for black culture is stupid (and possibly racist)?

Fundamentalist Christianity is not unique to America. The blinders are on tight in Sweden as usual I see.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Or still not getting why calling gangsta culture for black culture is stupid (and possibly racist)?

It's a Jamaican culture, that does not make it the only representation of "black" culture, but to deny the linkage is silly, modern Chavs, btw, are the "gangsta"ised poor whites picking up on "gangsta" culture.

Of course, "gangsta" is not the same as "gangster".

[Adrian II]

Racial identity? And identifying where said sub cultures originated from? No one is saying or implyin all blacks desire to wear grills and drive low riders simply that poor blacks in american ghettos originated the culture and it was adopted by a larger market when successful rappers and sports stars came out of the ghetto and continued to live within that sub culture.

You haven't read what Starkey said. If the above is what he meant to say, then he should have done so. He wouldn't be the first to lament black ghetto culture, either in the UK or in the US. A majority of blacks do not identify with it. This has become very clear in the US since Bill Cosby's Pound Cake speech was widely echoed by black communities. In the UK there are also quite a few blacks (including prominent commentators such as the ones quoted by Starkey in his latest piece) who are disgusted by it as well.

And his comment about Lammy being 'white' was plain idiotic. Saying that a decent black man is actually white is like saying to a smart woman 'Ah, but you're not really a woman, you are actually a man.' It's degrading.

AII

[Centurion1]

You haven't read what Starkey said. If the above is what he meant to say, then he should have done so. He wouldn't be the first to lament black ghetto culture, either in the UK or in the US. A majority of blacks do not identify with it. This has become very clear in the US since Bill Cosby's Pound Cake speech was widely echoed by black communities. In the UK there are also quite a few blacks (including prominent commentators such as the ones quoted by Starkey in his latest piece) who are disgusted by it as well.

And his comment about Lammy being 'white' was plain idiotic. Saying that a decent black man is actually white is like saying to a smart woman 'Ah, but you're not really a woman, you are actually a man.' It's degrading.

AII

I know I am clarifying what you said and addressing what you said.


Because culture has nothing to do with genes. Simple as that.

I do think that presenting "whitewashing" as the goal for which minorities should strive is insulting and derogatory and a very common occurrence like my GF referring her mother whom she considers a FOB as not being very whitewashed. I personally find it distasteful when I hear or think about it but because of how pervaded the concept is into my societal psyche I even find myself thinking or saying something along similar lines.

However, having victim complexes and moaning about past occurrences does nothing to help this issue and in fact merely increases the distance between racial and ethnic groups and create more resentment.

Edit: Also large segments of the black population often consider Bill Cosby a race traitor. Another stupid concept that makes me want to grind my teeth. A "race traitor"? Just get over yourselves it is damn pathetic.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You haven't read what Starkey said. If the above is what he meant to say, then he should have done so. He wouldn't be the first to lament black ghetto culture, either in the UK or in the US. A majority of blacks do not identify with it. This has become very clear in the US since Bill Cosby's Pound Cake speech was widely echoed by black communities. In the UK there are also quite a few blacks (including prominent commentators such as the ones quoted by Starkey in his latest piece) who are disgusted by it as well.

And his comment about Lammy being 'white' was plain idiotic. Saying that a decent black man is actually white is like saying to a smart woman 'Ah, but you're not really a woman, you are actually a man.' It's degrading.

AII

I think you'll find he said he "sounds white on the Radio", i.e. he is fully integrated into the culture of the intellectual and political elite, that culture is demographically almost entirely "white" with the exception of a fondness for Bob Marley and Eddie Grant. Starkey is an historian, he's describing what he percieves as the currents in British society.

[Adrian II]

However, having victim complexes and moaning about past occurrences does nothing to help this issue and in fact merely increases the distance between racial and ethnic groups and create more resentment.

Oh, I totally agree with you. I believe most culture wars are privilege-driven (by that I mean they are driven by people who either have or want to secure undeserved privileges) and as such they divide all sorts of communities that could do without them. Alas, someone like Cosby being accused of 'betrayal' isn't unique to the US either. In my country the black exceptionalists like to call people like him 'Bounties' after a dark chocolate bar with white coconut filling. Let them choke on it, I say.

AII

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Youth culture in the USA is produced from a myriad of different influences. However, if I had to pick the single most influential strain in that melange, it would be urban/hip hop. Does that make most of our your chavs by your definition?

[Adrian II]

'Chav' originates from the Romani word 'chavi' which means 'youth'. Does that make all youth chavs? Or all chavs Roma? Chav culture borrows from older working-class subcultures like mods and skinheads, too. Does that make it right-wing?

Multiple influences go into every modern culture and subculture, due to global media coverage and marketing strategies. US gangsta culture may be influential, but this works out differently in different countries. French ghetto culture has strong French, African and Arab influences. Dutch ghetto culture has strong Surinam and Moroccan influences. German ghetto culture has strong punk and neonazi influences.

The important thing is that gang culture has similar characteristics regardless of ethnic background or race: peer dependence, smoking, excessive drinking, drug use, gang formation, organised theft, violence, rape and vandalism, use of territorial graffiti, sexism, foul language and benefit scrounging.

Is anyone surprised that China has the exact same problem with youth gangs being responsible for a huge increase in crime lately? No 'black' influence there, my friends. China has an age-old gang culture all of itself, thank you very much.

AII

[Ironside]

Fundamentalist Christianity is not unique to America. The blinders are on tight in Sweden as usual I see.

Name any other western christian country where introduction of creationism in schools are even a blip on the threatometer. Sure it exist in other countries, the difference is that yours wield (some) political power.

And since this is a game of perception and improper usage of general terms, you can't do source searching either.


It's a Jamaican culture, that does not make it the only representation of "black" culture, but to deny the linkage is silly, modern Chavs, btw, are the "gangsta"ised poor whites picking up on "gangsta" culture.

Of course, "gangsta" is not the same as "gangster".

I would say that calling it a "black" culture is a rather nice example of obfuscating the origin rather than clearifying it. It's only taking in that it originated as a ghetto culture in predominantly black (and Jamaican influenced) areas. Current spread cannot be handled without starting to sound stupid (is it still "black" if the majority having it are whites or chinese or whatever?).

Compare to "gangsta":
Says US origin by the connection to the 1920-ties gangster and that it's an idealisation of criminal behavior. Says it's taken by mostly young people (seen by making gangsta "cooler" than gangster). Not perfect, but a much better description of what it is and it's origins.


I know I am clarifying what you said and addressing what you said.

I do think that presenting "whitewashing" as the goal for which minorities should strive is insulting and derogatory and a very common occurrence like my GF referring her mother whom she considers a FOB as not being very whitewashed. I personally find it distasteful when I hear or think about it but because of how pervaded the concept is into my societal psyche I even find myself thinking or saying something along similar lines.

And this is a nice example of the original point of political correctness (the horror, it has a use). Even while being aware of it you're influenced by it. Accepting gangsta culture=black culture means that your opinion of every black person you meet, will be influenced by what you think about gangsta culture.


However, having victim complexes and moaning about past occurrences does nothing to help this issue and in fact merely increases the distance between racial and ethnic groups and create more resentment.

And that's why you should avoid a language that enforces victim complexes, by derogatory terminology.


Edit: Also large segments of the black population often consider Bill Cosby a race traitor. Another stupid concept that makes me want to grind my teeth. A "race traitor"? Just get over yourselves it is damn pathetic.

That I agree on. Sadly often occuring when the boundries have grown strong.



And his comment about Lammy being 'white' was plain idiotic. Saying that a decent black man is actually white is like saying to a smart woman 'Ah, but you're not really a woman, you are actually a man.' It's degrading.


It's even better than that. It's also saying that a man that's stupid has to be a woman (or to be more general, to participate in this type of behavior you have to be "female").


I think you'll find he said he "sounds white on the Radio", i.e. he is fully integrated into the culture of the intellectual and political elite, that culture is demographically almost entirely "white" with the exception of a fondness for Bob Marley and Eddie Grant. Starkey is an historian, he's describing what he percieves as the currents in British society.

I'm not sure that's better. So whites are defined so strongly together with the intellectual and political elite, that simply being white is enough to belong to it? it actually works that way with adding extra weight on British btw (well gives the perception of Victorian upper class traits).

But no, he needed to drag in race into it, while having multiple options of expressing the same opinions, with more accurate and less confusing choice of words.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

'Chav' originates from the Romani word 'chavi' which means 'youth'. Does that make all youth chavs? Or all chavs Roma? Chav culture borrows from older working-class subcultures like mods and skinheads, too. Does that make it right-wing?

Really, I've heard so many derivations of the word, but the suggestion it is linked to Roma is novel, and seems to make a limited amount of sense, given that it originates in Essex on Council Estates.


Multiple influences go into every modern culture and subculture, due to global media coverage and marketing strategies. US gangsta culture may be influential, but this works out differently in different countries. French ghetto culture has strong French, African and Arab influences. Dutch ghetto culture has strong Surinam and Moroccan influences. German ghetto culture has strong punk and neonazi influences.

The important thing is that gang culture has similar characteristics regardless of ethnic background or race: peer dependence, smoking, excessive drinking, drug use, gang formation, organised theft, violence, rape and vandalism, use of territorial graffiti, sexism, foul language and benefit scrounging.

Is anyone surprised that China has the exact same problem with youth gangs being responsible for a huge increase in crime lately? No 'black' influence there, my friends. China has an age-old gang culture all of itself, thank you very much.

AII

True, but identifying with a "slave" culture in the "master's" country is particularly divisive, someone wrote in the Guardian last week that by using the "N word" to describe themselves young blacks were identifying with the field slave, the beast of burden whose ambition was escape and destruction, rather than the house slave whose ambition was freedom and advancement.


Name any other western christian country where introduction of creationism in schools are even a blip on the threatometer. Sure it exist in other countries, the difference is that yours wield (some) political power.

And since this is a game of perception and improper usage of general terms, you can't do source searching either.

Rising in the UK, rapidly.


I would say that calling it a "black" culture is a rather nice example of obfuscating the origin rather than clearifying it. It's only taking in that it originated as a ghetto culture in predominantly black (and Jamaican influenced) areas. Current spread cannot be handled without starting to sound stupid (is it still "black" if the majority having it are whites or chinese or whatever?).

I think Starkey was basically saying he wants that violent Jamaican culture (Jafaican) on the rubbish heap, he sees the indiginous "white" culture as better than the incoming "black" and simply thinks the "black" should be subsumed. Again, from a historical point of view this is desireable and follows established patterns in the UK (Viking culture subsumed into Anglo-Saxon), but it is a callous thing to say to living people.

This is why Dons should not be allowed on Television, they always look like idiots, be they Robert Bartlett (bad documentaries on the Normans) or Francesca Stavrakopoulou (bad documentaries on the Bible).


Compare to "gangsta":
Says US origin by the connection to the 1920-ties gangster and that it's an idealisation of criminal behavior. Says it's taken by mostly young people (seen by making gangsta "cooler" than gangster). Not perfect, but a much better description of what it is and it's origins.

You think modern "gangsta" culture is related to 1920's Chicago Gangsterism? I doubt it, it's the same pseudo-Jamaican rubbish we have over here.


And this is a nice example of the original point of political correctness (the horror, it has a use). Even while being aware of it you're influenced by it. Accepting gangsta culture=black culture means that your opinion of every black person you meet, will be influenced by what you think about gangsta culture.

No it doesn't Nazism is German, but that doesn't mean I expect all Germans to hate Jews, or all Italians to wear Black Shirts because of Facism.


And that's why you should avoid a language that enforces victim complexes, by derogatory terminology.

No, people should grow up, I have zero sympathy. You get less moning off the Irish than from the Jamaican community in the UK, and the former were oppressed by the English for longer and up until more recently.


I'm not sure that's better. So whites are defined so strongly together with the intellectual and political elite, that simply being white is enough to belong to it? it actually works that way with adding extra weight on British btw (well gives the perception of Victorian upper class traits).

But no, he needed to drag in race into it, while having multiple options of expressing the same opinions, with more accurate and less confusing choice of words.

In the UK power is defined by White culture and White forms, in all aspects and at all levels. That's just how it is, if you want to be a Lawyer, a BBC News Anchor, an Accountant, or an Oxford Academic and you wer born in the UK you need a Home Counties Accent to be taken seriously, which is why I cultivate my father's Surrey accent over my mother's Hampshire one.

[Ironside]

Rising in the UK, rapidly.

Interesting. Should it reach American levels, I'm going to find a new example then. Hillbillies?



You think modern "gangsta" culture is related to 1920's Chicago Gangsterism? I doubt it, it's the same pseudo-Jamaican rubbish we have over here.

Two criminal groups are idolised (painted in a somewhat positive light) in the US. Wild western reveolvermen and gangsters. Using gangsta is a strive to be part of this identification. It's not a continous process behind, so no direct link. Compare to (Slavic) Macedonia to (Greek) Alexander the Great.



No it doesn't Nazism is German, but that doesn't mean I expect all Germans to hate Jews, or all Italians to wear Black Shirts because of Facism.

That's the thing, all Nazis might've been German (I know that's incorrect but that's beside the point in this case), but by calling it "black" behavior you're indirectly doing the same thing as starting to call all Germans Nazis. Neo Nazis (outside Germany) aren't German, so calling all Neo Nazis Germans is where things are going to hell.



No, people should grow up, I have zero sympathy. You get less moning off the Irish than from the Jamaican community in the UK, and the former were oppressed by the English for longer and up until more recently.

See above. This is one point where you're supposed to moan to kill it early.

[Centurion1]

Rioting seems to have escalated in certain areas


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_I5qggUEms

[Fragony]

'That's the thing, all Nazis might've been German (I know that's incorrect but that's beside the point in this case), but by calling it "black" behavior you're indirectly doing the same thing as starting to call all Germans Nazis. Neo Nazis (outside Germany) aren't German, so calling all Neo Nazis Germans is where things are going to hell. '

Things don't have to be 'all' such absoluts don't exist, and I doubt mr historian knows a lot black people, and it was epically poorly worded, but everyone secretly or not knows exactly what he meant. Is it so hard to accept that urban/rap culture has black roots and that chavs are adapting it.

[Ironside]

Things don't have to be 'all' such absoluts don't exist, and I doubt mr historian knows a lot black people, and it was epically poorly worded, but everyone secretly or not knows exactly what he meant. Is it so hard to accept that urban/rap culture has black roots and that chavs are adapting it.

No, that's not hard to accept. The problem is that his choise of words are so bad so he's saying a lot more than that.

[Fragony]

No, that's not hard to accept. The problem is that his choise of words are so bad so he's saying a lot more than that.

Can be, if you really want to. If you want to weight down every word on the golden scale we will never get anywhere. These riots in London and that Nordic psycho in specific means we really need to talk with eachother instead of trying to win a debate. Can't debate our way out of the maelstrom we have gotten ourselves into

[Ironside]

Can be, if you really want to. If you want to weight down every word on the golden scale we will never get anywhere. These riots in London and that Nordic psycho in specific means we really need to talk with eachother instead of trying to win a debate. Can't debate our way out of the maelstrom we have gotten ourselves into

In this case you'll need the golden scale to explain why it shouldn't be taken at face value (short version. He says people adapting gangsta culture is being culturally "black" and black people behaving more as the social elite is being culturally "white") And by some bizarre reason talking to eachother starts to get tricky when one side is constantly insulting the other.

[Fragony]

In this case you'll need the golden scale to explain why it shouldn't be taken at face value (short version. He says people adapting gangsta culture is being culturally "black" and black people behaving more as the social elite is being culturally "white") And by some bizarre reason talking to eachother starts to get tricky when one side is constantly insulting the other.

He's a historian not a psychologist. If you try to think as a historian is it really that odd what he said? I think insult is sought where none was intended.

[Adrian II]

He's a historian not a psychologist. If you try to think as a historian is it really that odd what he said? I think insult is sought where none was intended.

If he had any historic sense, he wouldn't have quoted Enoch Powell, a man who had a pathological hatred against the US and who despised black immigrants. Starkey should have known, precisely because he is a historian, that this was a toxic cocktail that he shouldn't touch.

AII

[Fragony]

If he had any historic sense, he wouldn't have quoted Enoch Powell, a man who had a pathological hatred against the US and who despised black immigrants. Starkey should have known, precisely because he is a historian, that this was a toxic cocktail that he shouldn't touch.

AII

It's stupid but I assume no harm intended, he's rather clumsy anyway. It isn't all that bad if you read in a historical context instead of a racial one, try it now shoo

[Adrian II]

It's stupid but I assume no harm intended, he's rather clumsy anyway. It isn't all that bad if you read in a historical context instead of a racial one, try it now shoo

The context offered by Starkey was hysterical, not historical. He began by referring to Enoch Powell, a man who lamented that his constituents were being chased by 'grinning piccaninnies', who thought that blacks wanted to take over Britain in twenty years time and who predicted there would be 'rivers of blood' in the country.

LOL, just think what would have happened if another interlocutor on the program had started out by quoting Malcolm X to the effect that whites have corrupted the black youth and that race separation and black supremacy were the answer to Britain's ills.

AII

[Fragony]

I know who he is and I know that speech, we will just have to wait and see how stupid he really was.

Stratsbourgh, 1975

[Furunculus]

Calling gang culture 'black' and calling a decent black man like Lammy 'white' was simply racist. It doesn't matter if someone in the Daily Mail agreed with Starkey. Or that some black commentator echoed some of his comments (without endorsing his racism by the way). Or that Ed Miliband made a fool of himself on some other occasion. Those are just diversions, fallacies to cover up his mistake.
AII

there is a problem here between what you think starkey said, and what in fact he actually did see, because there is a very important difference between the two.

as toby young pointed out:

"Starkey wasn’t talking about black culture in general, but, as he was anxious to point out, a “particular form” of black culture, i.e. “the violent, destructive, nihilistic, gangster culture” associated with Jamaican gangs and American rap music. Had he been talking about these qualities as if they were synonymous with African-Caribbean culture per se, or condemning that culture in its totality, then he would have been guilty of racism. But he wasn’t. He was quite specifically condemning a sub-culture associated with a small minority of people of African-Caribbean heritage."

Because the OED definition of racism is thus:

"the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race , especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races."

Think about that.............

[Furunculus]

If he had any historic sense, he wouldn't have quoted Enoch Powell, a man who had a pathological hatred against the US and who despised black immigrants. Starkey should have known, precisely because he is a historian, that this was a toxic cocktail that he shouldn't touch.

AII
there is nothing that should not be touched, and that fact that powell has been demonised has only made things worse.

have you actually read the rivers-of-blood speech?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3643837/When-will-Tories-admit-that-Enoch-was-right.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3643823/Enoch-Powells-Rivers-of-Blood-speech.html

[Fragony]

He understood the dangers of multiculturerasism, simple as that.

[Adrian II]

I have read both Starkey's comments and Powell's speech and I have quoted them both correctly. It's just not good enough for members to claim that either of them actually meant to say something different than they did. They were both fluent, even eloquent in English and they both stuck to their words afterwards. Can't be helped. :shrug:

AII

[econ21]

have you actually read the rivers-of-blood speech?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3643823/Enoch-Powells-Rivers-of-Blood-speech.html

Yuk, reading it does nothing to diminish its nasty reputation. The black man will have the whip hand in 1983? How sage... Two black men knocked on the door of a little old white lady wanting to use the phone! Gasp, the outrage! Of course Powell was right - a Commonwealth doctor can never be an immigrant. He's a doctor, afterall. The Race Relations Act should never have been passed. :wall:

Come on, don't try make the 2011 riots about race and immigration - it's so patently false.

For race, you could have made that case about the riots in the mid-1980s but not now. Even Starkey admits that when he says "Enoch was absolutely right,... I mean absolutely wrong". The Afro-Caribbeans are so well integrated, a dispute with the police in a community in which they predominate sparks off violence in mainly white Manchester.

For immigration, it appeared to me from the coverage that it was the indigenous Brits (of whatever colour) looting the poor hardworking immigrants.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The context offered by Starkey was hysterical, not historical. He began by referring to Enoch Powell, a man who lamented that his constituents were being chased by 'grinning piccaninnies', who thought that blacks wanted to take over Britain in twenty years time and who predicted there would be 'rivers of blood' in the country.

AII

Powell was widely cheered by the working class and he was correct in several particulars, not least the negative impace of rapid immagration and lack of integration on Britain major cities.

He was also right on figues, and the rise of vested interests and racially or religiously motivate lobby groups.

His point about the little old lady is, more than anything, that she should not be expected to change the way she lives - it is simply unrealistic.

RE: Rivers of Blood, we certainly has race riots in the 1980's and the recent riots were sparked by a racially charged incident.

That can't be helped, either.

His analysis as it relates to the psychology of the British working man's mind was essentially correct, and at least some of his predictions have come to pass.

Edit: Make of that what you will, but to pretend he was simply talking out of his racist fumdament is just wrong.

[Furunculus]

I have read both Starkey's comments and Powell's speech and I have quoted them both correctly. It's just not good enough for members to claim that either of them actually meant to say something different than they did. They were both fluent, even eloquent in English and they both stuck to their words afterwards. Can't be helped. :shrug:

AII
nothing he said fits in the the OED definition of racism, how do you not get this?

[Furunculus]

Come on, don't try make the 2011 riots about race and immigration - it's so patently false.

I'm not.

The were two claims:
1. That what starkey said was racist
2. That starkey should not have quoted 'that' racist speech

Both claims are rubbish.
1. Starkey's words do not fit the OED definition of racism. You can call them ill-advised, intensive and inflammatory if you wish, i will agree, but they were not racist.
2. Where there are [actual] racist phrases in the speech, it is Powell quoting his constituents, you may find his views unpleasant and be thankful that we live in a different world today, i will agree, but his speech is not racist.

Really, i don't much care about the riots or immigration, but when i hear twaddle i will call it!

[Louis VI the Fat]

Meh, not since a sunny April morning in Nuremberg, 1936, has there been said anything as racist as Starkey's remarks.

Doesn't mean he isn't right on the money, but racist, it is.




Louis - still can't decide whether he is a creepy fascist or an enlightened antifascist.

[Adrian II]

nothing he said fits in the the OED definition of racism, how do you not get this?

The OED is for wuzzes. In my view equating race and culture is racist, and equating good with white skin and bad with black skin is just nasty

AII

[Montmorency]

Well, the OED is descriptive, not prescriptive. So there.

[Adrian II]

Well, the OED is descriptive, not prescriptive. So there.

Alright, make that descriptive wuzzes.

AII

[Montmorency]

Dude-bro, my comment lends support to yours.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The OED is for wuzzes. In my view equating race and culture is racist, and equating good with white skin and bad with black skin is just nasty

AII

The OED records ussage as a way of defining meaning, if the OED doesn't record the terms as racist they haven't been used in a racist context, ergo construing them as racist is a logical leap.

I dissagree with Louis, Starkey is wrong, but he's not racist.

[Papewaio]

Of course its racist and patently untrue.

First the protest to the police shooting was relatively peaceful.

However was rioting started a whole cross section of the larger community saw an opportunity for personal gain. The looting was widespread throughout England and not confined to a single race or sub culture.

So to single out one sub group based on race is racist. Particularly when it is added that another group is better basEd on their skin group even when they were looting.

Gangs: have existed prior to Jamaicans and prior to Rap. Anyone who is that uneducated to believe that they are the original creators of gangs needs to read a book. Start with Oliver Twist for a London gang culture, then be advanced enough to find the racist undertones in that.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I dissagree with Louis, Starkey is wrong, but he's not racist.Awesome. :beam:



Not Racist, Right: Furunculus
Not Racist, Wrong: PVC
Racist, Right: Louis
Racist, Wrong: Adrian, Econ, Papewaio
Merely Descriptive: Montmorency



Louis - usually racist, petty and wrong.

[Papewaio]

I though Louis was normally pretty racy & wonton...

[Montmorency]

Merely descriptive is what I aspire to be. Encouragment is always nice. :bow:

[econ21]

With this thread echoing in my ears, I belatedly did the washing up listening to the radio. Rather than hear myself silently scream during the BBC Radio 4 interminable shipping forecast, I put on the local radio station. I cheerfully toiled, swaying to the surprisingly appealing music of today's youth. I was going to report back with some sarcastic post about how doubtless my exposure to youth culture would send me onto the streets when the next flash mob text call comes.

Then I noticed that the popstars were singing about how much they were looking forward to buying some new trainers and, on another track, how they were going to take some clothes from a shop, leave the labels on, wear them for the night out and return them to the shop the day after. :wall:

Damn them - I think Davids Cameron or Starkey must have paid them to perform. The irony is, it's not even gangsta rap - it's just indolent and inane consumerism given pure expression. A perfect soundtrack to the British looting.

[Furunculus]

Meh, not since a sunny April morning in Nuremberg, 1936, has there been said anything as racist as Starkey's remarks.

Doesn't mean he isn't right on the money, but racist, it is.


well, if we aren't even going to use words as they are defined then debate is going to be difficult, but perhaps we can continue to merely emote are strong emotional rejection at nasty ideas? ;)

[Vladimir]

A little more on the NYPD:

http://news.yahoo.com/cia-help-nypd-moves-covertly-muslim-areas-090019915.html

A little sloppy, maybe...

[Montmorency]

It's not about disagreeing with anyone.

It is about the global conspiracy to dominate the earth
that is mandated by the mainstream teachings of Islam.

Oink!.

These email-website-news comments are always so wacky.

[Vladimir]

These email-website-news comments are always so wacky.

Oh yea. That's half the fun of internet news.

[InsaneApache]

Our father, who art in prison,
Even my mum knows not his name,
Thy Chavdom come,
Thy will be done in Manchester
As it is in London,
Give us this day our welfare bread,
And forgive us our ASBOs,
As we happy slap those who give evidence against us.
And lead us not to employment,
But deliver us free housing,
For thine is the Chavdom,
The Burberry & the Bacardi,
Forever and ever.

Innit

[Adrian II]

Innit

Can't be bovvered :laugh4:

AII

[Furunculus]

der spiegel was correct, the rioters each had an average of 15 previous offences to their names:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8764809/Average-London-rioter-had-15-previous-offences-figures-show.html