Casse campaign report (long)

[Nightmare]

Don't know if anyone is interested, but this is the type thing I like to see, anyway. I would have posted this in another area - "writeup on current campaigns" or something like that. But I didn't see such a section. A mod is welcome to move this if it's more appropriate somewhere else. At any rate, this report is targeted at either a newbish type of player considering Casse, or the more experienced player who just wants to know how someone elses experience played out and compare it to his own. Also, I have no idea whether any of this info is available in a guide somewhere (haven't read any guides).

So I decided to give Casse a try, because of the "old fashioned" fighting style they were attributed, plus I had been playing several campaigns of "civilized" factions (Carthage, Rome, etc.) so wanted to play some wild barbarians.

A quick look at my starting position (VH/M) and two possible (of many, I guess) strats emerged. One was to take what army I had and attack rebel cities in Britania. The other was to take what army I had, use my boats, and attack in mainland Europe. I'm always a big-picture map strategist if nothing else, and it seemed to me that Britania would always be waiting there for me - you start out with a foothold there, and no other faction should be able to beat you to it. My choice then was to attack the mainland, and return to the island later.

I'd be interested in what strategic choices some of you made here at this juncture, why, and how it worked out.

After making that choice, three more choices (of many, I guess) emerged: 1) attack rebels, 2) attack Germany, or 3) attack Gaul (dark green, not puke lime green). Interestingly, it seemed that I was not at war with the rebels, so I decided to attack Germany or Gaul. I wasn't sure which was best, so I played both out in parallel for a short time - first saving the game and attacking Gaul (dark green, not puke lime green), then reloading and attacking Germany.

As far as Germany goes, the first thing I noticed was that it took forever to get my boats up there and dump off my troops. The second thing I noticed was, he had already taken a couple of cities and had full stacks roaming around, meanwhile I had a measly half to full stack or so, plus debt piled up. I decided to try Gaul instead.

I'd be interested to know what strategic choices some of you made here (Germany or Gaul), and how it worked out.

I attacked the dark green Gaul's coastal city with all the troops I had, including all generals (London was left totally empty). I stomped him in that battle and took his city (for all I know it was his capital city). Moving in towards his other province, I discovered that he had a lot more stuff than I did, and it was higher quality stuff too - swordsmen and such vs. my riff-raff (I think he had 2 stacks or more). I backed off and wondered how I'd be able to defend what I'd just taken. It didn't look good.

I had to put my army and starting position to good use, so I ended up taking 8 cities on the mainland in fairly short order, from all the way up bordering The Netherlands, all the way down to near Spain - all cities hugging the coast, about 2 cities deep in from the coast. When I got to German territory (Netherlands), I noticed the German was lying in ambush right on the bridges to his territory. As I was outmatched, I asked for an alliance and received one, however the entire time I was on my conquest with my rag-tag army I was waiting for an attack from Germany. Strangly enough, it never came. He has sat on the bridges the entire game thus far, waiting in ambush. I was also waiting for an attack from the dark green Gauls, which didn't come for a long while, except a few harassing attacks that were easily repelled. For one thing, both the Gaul and Germany had armies that dwarfed mine, and they were much higher quality as well (all I had were Briton shortswordsmen and levy spearmen for forever, with a very occasional Belgae spear thrown in; meanwhile they had swordmen stacks, mercenary stacks, etc.). Either could have wiped the floor with me.

As for the Gauls, I discovered with spies that they had their hands full with the puke lime green Gauls who kept trying to take the lone city I left them with this side of the Alps. Therefore, the dark green Gaul was forced to keep his stacks nearby his city to defend from puke green. As for Germany, I don't know his excuse. I guess he likes playing defensively and setting traps. He is enemies with dark green, but I've never seen them fight. In fact I've never seen him fight anyone.

Dark green eventually started sending full stacks of swordsmen and Gallic Nobles (footed and horseback) to siege my cities. It was a lot better quality than what I had, as I was still stuck on levy spears, shortswords, and an occasional Belgae spear; however by that time I may not have had quality, but I had lots of quantity and could produce my craptastic soldiers from eight mainland cities at once to repel his attacks. He'd get his kills and often get a higher kill ratio (unless I managed to engage defensively on a bridge), but I'd push him off my cities, and successfully defended all of them.

I'd be interested in how some of your games played out on the mainland.

At any rate I eventually realized that the best troops I had were buildable from my lone city on the island, however I COULD BUILD NO BOATS (and my starting boat was disbanded right after it was used), therefore I couldn't get troops built in London to the mainland! That's right - for all you newer folks out there, you can't build boats from London, nor the first cities you take on the island or anywhere else. You have to get all the way into the furthest reaches of Ireland, or on the westernmost French coast (of my empire, anyway), plus tech that city a level or two before you can build boats. What this meant is, I could never get any decent troops on the mainland and was stuck with shortswords and levy riff-raff for a long time.

When I was ready to build an army on the island and start pushing, I also realized it was unfortunate I diddn't leave a general there initally, as I figured I needed everything for my "Gaul blitz." Therefore I had to proceed to my first target leaderless. Fortunately, after taking that city (the one directly north of London), I realized I could build a Celtic Lesser King there, which upon a save and reload had turned into a regular Casse chariot general (either that, or he was that way all along and I didn't notice).

Once I started taking northern British and Ireland cities, I also realized that it seemed the campaign was "set up" for me to do this first. I got access to good troops through foreign levies and what not, plus scripted events took place. I guess I'd like to hear from folks who took the island first before embarking on the mainland, and see how it played out.

To green or newbie-types who are entertaining thoughts of having a go...

- Your best (meaning cheapest upkeep) garrison troops are british shortswords or militia skirmisers, either of who's cost/capita rivals that of a hellenic skirmisher.

- On the island, you can go far with hoards of celtic slingers, and also militia skirmishers. When you see the slinger's stats, you'll laugh. I believe they do a damage of 1 unupgraded (maybe 2). But get enough of them (like half a stack) and let them sit there outside of the city walls firing at the troops within, and they will do serious damage to the lightly-armored opposition. And they seem to level up quick too. A lot of your militia skirmishers sitting just on the other side of the wall (either before you assault the gate, or while you are doing it) do a lot of damage too.

- The shortsword seems fairly craptastic to me (in a non-garrison role), but it's all I could afford or build on the mainland for the longest time. The only thing I can say about it is, they were cheap to build and mass, at least ostensibly. I haven't done any calculations, that's just my gut assessment, but perhaps someone more of an expert than me will chime in and say they have good bang for their cost, or are efficient in some other way. They are good garrisons, though.

- The levy spears don't seem anything to brag about on the mainland either; the Germanic levies I saw were better at around the same cost, and probably whatever the Gaul was fielding too, but again someone more of an expert can chime in and give his take.

- The Belgae spears are the best troop you can build on the mainland for a while (I haven't been able to tech anything else there yet). They have better stats than rival spears in the area I've seen thus far. Problem is, I can only get them out of two cities or so as of yet (can build them in England also, plus Belgae swords, but the swords don't seem to be available in Europe, at least not as of yet).

- In my opinion, the chariot is craptastic, and my family tree right now looks to be about 80% dead (KIA), with the 20% remaining alive being exclusive governors. It seems to me that you do anything substantial with the chariot in any way, it dies and you can't even pull out if it gets stuck in battle or a charge doesn't work out. However, see my other thread on Celtic Chariots, because apparently others put them to good use and swear by them, at least in the right circumstances (chariot enthusiasts are welcome to comment below).

- Your best troops (at least thus far in my campaign) are recruitable on the island. For one thing your London city starts out rather advanced. For another thing, you get additional faction-specific troops as you conquer into northern England, Ireland, etc. There is a skirmisher recruitable in northern England better than your generic militia skirmisher. There is a spear levy recruitable in Ireland that is better than your generic spear levy. There is an early sword unit in Ireland better than your generic sword. And as far as London goes, there are celtic spears, celtic naked spears, Belgae swordsmen, etc. available from the get-go, which are all good. You can also tech to celtic axemen within short order. Problem is, you don't need much of the good stuff to take out what's in England (I used craptastic stuff because that's all I could afford at the time). The good troops in England are needed in Europe, but you need boats, which I didn't have for the longest time.

So it seems to me that if you blitz the island, you'll have access to your best troops to do it with; however this will mean a delayed push on the mainland, as you won't have any boats because you'll need to disband the boats you start with eventually, and the opposition may be entrenched by the time you get to the mainland (then again, we are talking about the AI here - it may be slow to attack rebel cities). But if you blitz the mainland like I did, you'll be able to conquer a lot of cities pretty quickly if you get lucky, but you'll be spread thin, and you'll only have craptastic troops to defend with for quite a while (you won't be able to get your good troops to the mainland), and your island push will be delayed. I'd like to see how others see this playing out.

In parting, I believe this campaign is advertised as one of the more difficult ones (if memory serves). I'm not finished yet, but I've found it to be very easy. Sure, not as easy as Carthage or Rome, either of which is a stomp-fest, but the next easiest after, and nothing compared to Pontus, Saka, or Koinon Hellenon. However the easiness I experienced could have been somewhat luck, because as I said Germany never attacked me (thus far), and the dark green Gaul was busy with puke green for a long time. I'd be interested in hearing some of your assessments on the difficulty of your own campaign.

Where I'm at currently: All of England except one city in the very southwest, all of Ireland, just got access to boats (southern Ireland) and built one, at least 8 cities in coastal France running up to The Netherlands, and about to besiege the last remaining dark green Gaul city this side of the Alps. It should be more than he can handle (although I've thought that before). It will be all levy spears, Belgae spears, and some slingers (still can't build anything else on the mainland), but it's a lot of it. He's got elite swordsmen and nobles, but I believe he's down to his last stack, in these parts anyway.

After that I'll probably attack into Spain. I'll be interested to see what kinds of elite troops I can build (if any, heh) after taking out dark green and teching up. Either way, at least I can transplant decent troops from Britania down to the mainland now. The best I can build in London now is some kind of swordsman better than a Belgae, and celtic axemen, but I'll be teching more. Funny, about 10 seasons ago I got a report from the game telling me I was the most advanced faction in the world, which caused me to spray coffee on my monitor. All I've used to attack anyone are levy spears, miliia skirmishers, short swords, etc. although I did use a few axemen and celtics and a naked in england.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Once you get the time of soldiers reform you will be able to recruit Kluddargos and Rycalwre, two of the best infantry units in game and both uber-elites. Also, you can recruit ships at Ictis, the town directly to the west of Camulosadae/London. Typically it makes a good first target for this very reason. Also, Casse doesn't get hard until you start facing Roman fullstacks, Lusitanian fullstacks, and Sweboz fullstacks at the same time in Gaul. Very possible and very annoying.

[Nightmare]

Once you get the time of soldiers reform you will be able to recruit Kluddargos and Rycalwre, two of the best infantry units in game and both uber-elites.

Sounds better than facing all these gallic nobles with spearmen.


Also, you can recruit ships at Ictis, the town directly to the west of Camulosadae/London. Typically it makes a good first target for this very reason.

Of course that means it's the ONLY CITY LEFT IN ALL OF ENGLAND to attack. Of course you know it had to work out that way, right? I went straight north, took those cities, came down and veered into Ireland, took all those, came back through that isthmus and took the next city north of the one you just mentioned....


Also, Casse doesn't get hard until you start facing Roman fullstacks, Lusitanian fullstacks, and Sweboz fullstacks at the same time in Gaul. Very possible and very annoying.

Should be interesting. I just checked and Rome has just started attacked Segestica or whatever it's called (first Illyrian city to the right), so he has nothing except the boot, and not even all of it because that greek faction that starts with an E took Rhegion and is working on Sicily. The green Gaul is still to his north. Don't know what Spain is up to, but I've never seen them leave Spain in any campaign I've played, or even take all of Spain (usually a few rebel cities still there).

Unfortunately (this sucks) my attack against the last Gaul city my side of the Alps failed. Over 1000 soldiers to his 300. Wound up with all my soldiers surrounding his last swordsmen in the town square. Then his 2 units of cavalry charge in. I saw them coming and turned 2 units of Belgae spearmen to recieve the charge - and this is in a city no less, where my charges never work. He hit, he stayed in and fought, I thought "I got this made in the shade," and his horsemen simply wouldn't go down, fighting spears no less. After several minutes, my spearmen turned and ran, he had lost hardly any horses (sigh). Just one of those days.

This isn't a difficult campaign mind you, it's just this one stubborn city and really bad luck.

By the way, how did you approach this campaign?

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I took my time, consolidated Britain and Ireland and then invaded into the Belgic provinces, fighting off Sweboz as I went. Then the Romans were apparently making a beeline north and conquered the northernmost Arverni town and after taking that attacked me. So I had to fight off Sweboz and Romans and made my way south all the way to Massilia and then the Lusitanians hit with 3 full stacks... After that it was a real slog-fest. Sweboz units are pretty crappy but they fight for a long time with their 10 star generals in command, especially since you probably won't be taking much cavalry.

Thankfully, you share barracks with Aedui and Arverni so their towns should provide you with decent troops. Although cavalry in the Isles is terrible, Gallic and Belgic Light Cavalry are amazing and can do incredibly well against other light cav and infantry with their charges.

[moonburn]

go for armourica (city of daioratum or something) best ships in the world imho they´re expensive but you´ll be unstopable at the sea i defeated 20 ships pirate fleets (1 fleet of 20 ships may it be understood) with 1 single of those trevoros or pentos or whatever they´re named made in that city

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

go for armourica (city of daioratum or something) best ships in the world imho they´re expensive but you´ll be unstopable at the sea i defeated 20 ships pirate fleets (1 fleet of 20 ships may it be understood) with 1 single of those trevoros or pentos or whatever they´re named made in that city

Casse can't recruit those afaik. Only Arverni and Aedui can.

[Nightmare]

Once you get the time of soldiers reform you will be able to recruit Kluddargos and Rycalwre, two of the best infantry units in game and both uber-elites. Also, you can recruit ships at Ictis, the town directly to the west of Camulosadae/London. Typically it makes a good first target for this very reason. Also, Casse doesn't get hard until you start facing Roman fullstacks, Lusitanian fullstacks, and Sweboz fullstacks at the same time in Gaul. Very possible and very annoying.

My God, I don't know what the problem is, but these guys tech so slow and you have to fight with levy spears and skirmishers and what not for forever. I mean, the fun-factor for fighting with riff-raff only lasts for so long. Sure, there's a nostalgia to it at first - attacking with hordes of barbarian riff-raff. But it fades quick.

One of the problems is, for some reason my high-end barracks in London got frozen and wouldn't finish building for the longest time. I must have let it sit there for 20 turns before checking it and realizing it was stuck with 3 turns to go (it wouldn't progress), so I found a cheat to force it to finish. This problem may have occurred on the mainland too - I don't know. All I know is, the highest tech unit I can build on the mainland is Belgae spearmen, and only in 1 or 2 provinces, and I've been trying to get something higher in those provinces forever :-(

At any rate, can now recruit those lower-end Casse champions (starts with a 'c'), and druids in London, but that's the highest I can get. I'm at the time of bondsmen, don't know what it takes to go higher than that.

Dark green has been finished off, except for one city north of Italy. As soon as I finished him off I sent a stack southwards towards Lusitania, and then lime puke green attacked. So I returned to fight him. He's huge - like the 5th biggest territory in the game behind Rome, Carthage, Selucids, and myself. He conquered all the way from the border of Germany down into a couple cities in Spain.

Lusitania still hasn't done anything but take one or two rebel cities, and Rome has only expanded 1 city outside Italy I believe, in Illyria. He still isn't at war with Carthage yet. I guess I'll have to destroy puke green, which will take a while, and by that time I'll get attacked by the Germans, Romans, and Lusitans. But maybe I'll have those hardcore infantry you referred to by then.

[Stark]

Wouldn't be more fun if you learn who are you fighting? Historical authenticity is a major part of EB, you're missing a lot of immersion and enjoyment with that lime green and puke green.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

The reason your barracks froze is because with Time of Bondsmen, you need to rebuild the same level of barracks you have to get the new units. For Casse I'm not exactly sure what units it unlocks, Galaiche and Sotaroas at the least. When you have a barracks building when the event is received it stops building and "freezes," an unfortunate side effect. This is why its always useful to go through all your towns every turn. And Time of Soldiers is what will give you access to the two elites I mentioned.

[Nightmare]

Wouldn't be more fun if you learn who are you fighting? Historical authenticity is a major part of EB, you're missing a lot of immersion and enjoyment with that lime green and puke green.

They are both Gauls - I know that much and have known that much since forever. They both start with 'A'. That's about all I need to commit to memory, as far as I'm concerned ;-) Puke lime green and dark green is enough to let everyone know which tribe of gauls I'm talking about. As we say in the USA, "close enough for government work," at least for me :-)

[Nightmare]

The reason your barracks froze is because with Time of Bondsmen, you need to rebuild the same level of barracks you have to get the new units.


Good info - never knew that! If that's the way it works with all factions, it might explain why I never got advanced units with my Saka campaign, even though I hit Saka reforms very early after blitzing some Selucid cities.

[Nightmare]

For future reference, so I know how this works...

1) When reforms hit, I'm always supposed to destroy and rebuild my barracks to get the reform units?

2) Also, won't that result in me having to rebuild the ENTIRE CHAIN of barracks? So if I'm already at a level 5, I'll have to start at 1 again and go all the way up?

Thanks.

[Stark]

They are both Gauls - I know that much and have known that much since forever. They both start with 'A'. That's about all I need to commit to memory, as far as I'm concerned ;-) Puke lime green and dark green is enough to let everyone know which tribe of gauls I'm talking about. As we say in the USA, "close enough for government work," at least for me :-)

True, of course, but you're missing a lot of flavor by ignoring all that history EB team put in. Destroying massive armies every now and then can become tedious, a bit of roleplaying can liven up the game.

[d'Arthez]

You should not have to destroy the barracks. Merely an upgrade will do.

You could also destroy them, use console commands to rebuild them and then the add money cheat to subtract your "profits".

[Ca Putt]

I think you only have to rebuildthem with the roman marian reforms, as they actually open up a new line of barracks that and otherwise you'd have only lvl 5 barracks at the time you get Augutean reforms ;)

[Nightmare]

So another chariot story. So I'm rolling through puke gr... I mean Averni (heh) like a hot knife through butter, with 3 separate stacks taking cities at once. At any rate, my swordsmen stack, together with my faction leader, attacks one of his cities. I get inside and kick his butt all the way back to his little city square area. He has almost nothing left by this point - literally a unit of naked gallic swordsmen (forget their actual name, but you know what I'm talking about). I purposefully and neatly line up all my units in rows completely surrounding him. About 7 or 8 units of fully-topped up belgae swordsmen in the front, the same number of southern gallics on the side, and a bunch of stuff at his rear, along with my faction leader who has 30 - count them 30 - men in his unit (normal unit sizes). I give the order for everything to charge in and attack all at once, and everything does. I'm thinking "this is gonna be a slaughter, haha!" and as soon as my chariots his naked guys - from behind no less - with everything else colliding from the front and sides at the same time, I get the mini-cinematic of my faction leader going down, then get the message that he's killed. There's still 30 men in his unit of chariots, but he's dead. I just laughed and shook my head.

I don't care what anyone says, they are one of the worst-designed units in the game. If the game was full of esoteric units that were hard-countered in many situations but did good when severely micromanaged just right, it would be par for the course. But the game isn't full of units like that - it seems this is the only one, or one of the only ones.

[d'Arthez]

Now you are complaining that skirmisher cavalry cannot do the job of cataphracts. Chariot units are not meant to engage in city skirmishes, and certainly not against Gaesatae, which are very powerful warriors (they eat elites for breakfast), but very susceptible to missile fire.

[Ca Putt]

they actually are Elites, check their price^^

And one does not even charge (barbarian) town squares with cataphracts, unless you are really desperate and don't have ANYTHING else^^

[Nightmare]

Now you are complaining that skirmisher cavalry cannot do the job of cataphracts. Chariot units are not meant to engage in city skirmishes, and certainly not against Gaesatae, which are very powerful warriors (they eat elites for breakfast), but very susceptible to missile fire.

Look, disagree with my position all you want, just do it substantively.

1. I'm not complaining that skirmisher cavalry cannot do the job of cataphracts. It isn't a cahaphract's job to charge full force into the back of an utterly defeated, outnumbered 100-1 enemy, while at the same time a thousand heavy infantry are charging from the front and sides. A cataphract can charge into the front of a non-defeated, non-outnumbered enemy, comprehende?

2. Don't tell me that a chariot cannot charge into the back of an enemy unit in a city. In fact, my chariot did just that. The horn blew, I checked the chariot, and it said "charging" the whole way. Then it crashed into the back of the enemy unit and my general flew off his chariot. There is no magic code inserted into the game preventing chariots from doing just that. Now, is it sometimes quite difficult to get them to do it? Sure it is, and it's difficult to get other units to behave in cities too. That's why I almost always leave my chariots outside the walls nowadays. But this was a different circumstance. There was ONE ENEMY UNIT LEFT. And it was totally surrounded and defeated.

I didn't boo-hoo and complain that I tried to charge my chariot but it went the long way around the stupid town square, couldn't get a charge off, meanwhile the enemy is hacking away at it, and then my general died. If I had said that, I could see why you wrote what you wrote. I didn't say that. The charge went off perfectly. In fact, all charges from all directions went off perfectly, which usually doesn't happen.

3. I don't care how powerful the naked swordsmen are, they can't pull the trick of killing a chariot with their bare backs the instant the chariot crashes into those bare backs. They aren't supermen. This had nothing to do with those naked swordsmen, it had everything to do with chariots and how they are balanced.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

This can also happen with cavalry generals too. Sometimes the general just flies off his horse in a charge. Its rare but on occasion it happens. It happens to other men in the unit too (you'll especially notice it with lighter charge cavalry like Numidians or Arabians) but it is just rarer with the general because of his multiple HP. And I would go ahead and say it is even more likely with multiple HP units who receive the charge like Gaesatae, since they won't immediately die and need another rank of horses to hit them if they aren't already reduced to 1 HP.

[PelicanMan]

lol
sorry. That's just crappy luck.

Still one of the best units in the game.

THE P-MAN

[d'Arthez]

By the way, how would you charge at anything when you claim it is already being engaged from 4 sides? Especially something as unwieldly as a chariot? Racing with one through town is tricky enough, try doing that with thirty without getting in any accidents whatsoever? But of course they can, and they will never have any accident, because you desire it so, and thus it shall be. :rolleyes:

Just edit the EDU to give your units god mode. You simply cannot be pleased

ETA:
There are some serious bugs in RTW. Solving one problem will only create other problems, and as such it is a matter of finding a satisfactory balance. Some units will be underpowered as a result, others overpowered, often dependent on the circumstances offered by the battlefield.

If you had bothered to check the Gaesatae have 2 hitpoints, meaning that any charge against them is far less effective.

[Stark]

I played vanilla RTW recently, and my cavalry charged at the backs of militia hoplite unit (all of them facing the other side). At the moment of impact a dosen of my cavalrymen died, without anyone ever attacking them. That was fully patched up, vanilla Rome. That game is seriously retarded. EB just has some minor hickups (which are impossible to repair due to hardcoded engine).

[GenosseGeneral]

I experienced something weird when i had a unit of hetairoi running trough pezhetaioroi in a Ptolemaioi campaign. The hetairoi were running from the back through my own ranks of a marching unit, but got killed when they reached the spearwall of the marching(!) unit.

[Ca Putt]

Sorry people but In what way is it unrealistic that a general that's in the first line of ... any unit dies when the unit charges towards another? Generals in RTW may have multiple hitpoints but they are no supermen aswell. It's actually quite probable that this happens when you are charging towards a foothigh platform with Crazy shroom guys on it any you are driving a (flimsy) chariot. I mean think of it: the horses could trip, the horses could take fright and rear up resulting in your chariot flipping over, there are so many ways charging a manned platform with a chariot can go wrong and result in your death.
In RTW getting your General killed in a charge is a simple calculation :
depending on enemy unit and it's status and your unit and it's status, a certain number of (your) units in the first line get killed. let's just say that numer is 1 for the case at hand, because chariots have low resistances and Gaesatae have 2 HP. With a chance of roughly 10% for a fully stretched 20 men unit your general draws the unlucky lot. Depending on the traits of your general he might be down to one hitpoint(another reason I try to keep my generals away from the action if I can afford it) in that case he dies simple as that. So an optimist would say you had bad luck, someone who knows his math would say charging with a 20 men(general) unit into anything other than the backs of exhausted Toxotai without klicking the "rally troops"- button is throwing your General away. Especially after one already experienced that these things are "glass cannons".

Gameplaywise everyone who played RTW or M2TW KNOWS that it is bad idea to charge around the town square as movement in towns is buggy. An experienced gamer also knows that units with multiple hitpoints survive the initial charge thus have time to slash at you with their (probably deadly) weapons. Someone who has spent some time commanding cavalry also knows that when you use the "rally troops" order makes the General fall back behind his unit which is very usefull when charging something potentially dangerous like multiple hitpoint units or generally heavy infantry that costs as much as his unit and Fyi Gaesatae cost 7 mnai more than a unit of chariots.

Just check the unit cards of Enemy units and don't charge the town square with chariots when you have other options, like peppering them with arrows/javelins or swarming them with replaceable troops.

[Nightmare]

This can also happen with cavalry generals too. Sometimes the general just flies off his horse in a charge. Its rare but on occasion it happens. It happens to other men in the unit too (you'll especially notice it with lighter charge cavalry like Numidians or Arabians) but it is just rarer with the general because of his multiple HP. And I would go ahead and say it is even more likely with multiple HP units who receive the charge like Gaesatae, since they won't immediately die and need another rank of horses to hit them if they aren't already reduced to 1 HP.

Now this is the kind of helpful response that takes into account what was actually said in my story. Anyway, good to know it happens other times too. If so it means chariots aren't necessarily being singled out for suckiness in this instance... just other instances.


By the way, how would you charge at anything when you claim it is already being engaged from 4 sides?

Reread my story. In case of any confusion, my general led the charge in the group charging from behind.


Racing with one through town is tricky enough, try doing that with thirty without getting in any accidents whatsoever?

Racing through town wasn't an issue. The enemy was sitting on his town square. I not only liesurely strolled my infantry troops and lined them up in files completely surrounding him, I even let them sit there for 10 minutes until every single one of them said "fresh" with a mouseover. The chariot liesurely made it's way from outside to behind the enemy unit, and lined-up for the charge perfectly. He probably drank a sangria while doing it.

Did I need the general to participate? Of course not. But I struggle to find a use for the stupid things to justify even an ounce of their cost. At the last second I said to myself "What should be better than charging these naked dudes from all sides with my heavy infantry? To have a chariot crashing into his bare back at the same time!"

Yeah, I know chariots suck. I didn't know they sucked THAT much. To some dude above that referred to them as "skirmisher cavalry," I WISH they were skirmisher cavalry, because they are in every way possible worse than skirmisher cavalry. Heck, they are in every way possible worse than skirmisher infantry. The other day I charged an outmatched light phalanx from the FRONT with slingers, and didn't lose any. Chariots can't even hit anything from behind without the general crashing to the ground upon impact.

The other factions get generals that can actually physically do something. The Casse faction has to make due with an expensive hunk of junk that just sits there the entire time the battle takes place. Maybe it would be okay if he got some extra bonus to inspire his men to make up for the fact that he's so crippled, but he doesn't. Hell, if his upkeep cost matched his suckiness, I wouldn't complain. As it stands....


Sorry people but In what way is it unrealistic that a general that's in the first line of ... any unit dies when the unit charges towards another?

See, it is possible to disagree in a substantive fashion. In fact, I didn't know a lot of the info you gave, such as blowing a horn before the charge.

At any rate, I've played Total War for years and never had the above happen to me. Whenever I've lost men from the charge, it's always other men, never the general.


...don't charge the town square with chariots when you have other options, like peppering them with arrows/javelins or swarming them with replaceable troops

The advice of "don't use sucky generals when you have other options" isn't advice. The point is, there shouldn't be sucky generals. I know I can always sideline the guy (doesn't take a genius to figure that out) - I do it all the time. I'm struggle to find uses for the guy besides sitting on his rear end. Apparently, hitting a last remaining enemy unit in the back as he's being hit from every other side isn't even a use.

To the guy above who referenced them as "glass cannons," I'd be okay with that if I saw a little more cannon and a little less glass. As it stands, what better opportunity was there to exercise the cannon part and not break the glass? If I can't fire the cannon into the back of a lone enemy as he's being swarmed by other troops, is there even a cannon at all?

[d'Arthez]

About 7 or 8 units of fully-topped up belgae swordsmen in the front, the same number of southern gallics on the side, and a bunch of stuff at his rear, along with my faction leader who has 30 - count them 30 - men in his unit (normal unit sizes).


I give the order for everything to charge in and attack all at once, and everything does.

I can read, you can't write. The bunch of stuff at his rear is supposedly not part of everything? Ah, makes perfect sense. Or does it?


[A]nd as soon as my chariots his naked guys - from behind no less - with everything else colliding from the front and sides at the same time ...

I accept full responsibility for misunderstanding you. "Everything else" was everything minus the bunch of stuff at the rear, including your general. It would have helped if your "report" was written better. Or did you make the bunch of stuff at the rear attack as well, but not to the middle of the Gaestatae? I am still not sure if you kept the "bunch of stuff at the rear" in reserve or not.

If you provide for your own traffic congestion, then of course chariots will not be very effective. Chariots need space. Do you think a turning radius of 2 meters is realistic? What do you think would happen if a horse gets afraid? What if a horse gets slaughtered or loses a leg? Have you ever been on a chariot, and dealt with such eventualities?

You just picked the worst setting for chariots: small spaces in cities, against the worst opponents (Gaestatae, with 2 HP). On top of that the fight is on the city square, where the enemy cannot rout (engine limitation, certainly not EB's team idea) and you are surprised the outcome is less than perfect.

Just because you don't know how to use chariots effectively does not mean that they are useless. It just means you don't know how to use them.

[Gorbag]

If you don't like the Cidainh (chariot) Bodyguards then you could simply mod them out and replace them with, for example, Calawre (champions).

[Gorbag]

If you don't know how to then it's explained in this thread https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?81687-Casse-Generals-As-Infantry&highlight=Casse+bodyguards

[Ca Putt]

You can charge them in the last unit(or a isolated unit or a bunch of levy units) when these have the option of fleeing when surrounded this option is not there when on the town square they will not flee, when they are crazy naked fanatics for 3356 mnai, they will not flee.

I have to admit that I never lost my general in a charge but when I do I will be all Darth vader in Episode 3, bang my head against the table, drink a glass of wiskey and continue playing. I will not complain about this incident on the Forum or write a letter to CA(which would be pointless anyway) you know I just(ok yesterday) had some of the most annoying pathfinding bugs, like people getting stuck in trees formations being split up due to city walls - that cost me half my hispania army, or instead of going around the town center on the side they are stationed the balearic slingers choose to go right through the main street which atm is blocked by a huge streetfight and thus almost got killed in the fray if I had not noticed it in time :/(you know when you try to get your ranged troops to fire through the other main road which is not blocked and move them along the wall)
Tho I would like a "hero/failure of the day" - thread where people can post which unit just saved their ass or screwed up so horribly that a real general would hang them all to make an example.


In fact, I didn't know a lot of the info you gave, such as blowing a horn before the charge. I fist wanted to point it out seperately but then I included it into the rant.^^ It is usefull on such occasions, I often forget it but as soon as I will loose a general that way I'll do it all the time :D

[PelicanMan]

Yeah, I know chariots suck. I didn't know they sucked THAT much. To some dude above that referred to them as "skirmisher cavalry," I WISH they were skirmisher cavalry, because they are in every way possible worse than skirmisher cavalry. Heck, they are in every way possible worse than skirmisher infantry. The other day I charged an outmatched light phalanx from the FRONT with slingers, and didn't lose any. Chariots can't even hit anything from behind without the general crashing to the ground upon impact.

This just makes me upset. Honestly, I have stopped using more than one general in a stack BECAUSE of their superiority; they can rout almost anything if used correctly. That is the whole point with Casse. You have to instill fear into your enemy. A long drawn out battle doesn't gain you anything; all it is is a Pyrrhic victory. With the Chariots, you can end the battle quickly - IF YOU USE THEM CORRECTLY. They are not meant to kill enemy units with their charge; they are not meant for hand to hand combat. Use their javelins; use their fear against enemy units. Disrupt their formations with charging through the enemy units, not into the center of the unit and continue to hack at them in standstill. After going through the unit, let another unit charge their front. By that time, the unit is engaged, the General has reformed into their line, and charge right back. A big hunk of wood with two horses pulling it charging to my back in open field would scare the crap out of me too.
Also, if you have to deal with Cavalry, the chariots will eat them up quickly with minimal losses.

Frankly, I do not know how to further explain how good the unit is. Obviously it is no cataphract cavalry that can take anything; but the best explanation is that they ARE like a glass cannon. Stop them in their tracks, they die. Let them ride along your back with their javelins and them causing the utmost fear in enemy units, that's their cannon; and it is a strong one at that.

Could someone else (brennus maybe) explain how they are supposed to be used? I thought my explaination is quite clear but I may be wrong.

The P-MAN

[athanaric]

So another chariot story. So I'm rolling through puke gr... I mean Averni (heh) like a hot knife through butter, with 3 separate stacks taking cities at once. At any rate, my swordsmen stack, together with my faction leader, attacks one of his cities. I get inside and kick his butt all the way back to his little city square area. He has almost nothing left by this point - literally a unit of naked gallic swordsmen (forget their actual name, but you know what I'm talking about). .
Some points:

1 - I don't know if you prefer to play in a more historically accurate or in a fun fashion, but making stacks of only one type of unit (plus FMs) isn't really accurate. Especially if it's swordsmen (quality longswords were - and still are - expensive). IMO you should have mixed stacks based on an infantry line made up of spearmen (preferrably Gaelaiche if you fight in Gaul - they are the most reliable regular spearmen for Celtic factions, and retrainable in all of Gaul). Shortswordsmen are also pretty historically accurate core units, but weaker than spearmen. Also, at least one unit of Teceitos and either slingers or archers each. Belgae units are also useful, as you've already discovered.

2 - Cavalry is only useful against Gaisatoi when on an open battlefield. Even my customized, toned down version of them (I reduced their HP to one, like for every other infantry unit) can take care of most melee units. Moreso if they are "unroutable" due to standing on the town square. I'm afraid you have to use missiles, and swords after that (axes are less efficient in this case because there is, obviously, no armour to crack).

3 - When assaulting an Eleutheroi Belgian (or British?) town, I once killed an entire unit of chariots with one unit of Milnaht - without losing one man. This might help to reinforce my point that chariots are useless in static melee - and unfortunately, the engine bugs city fights in such a way that charges count as melee (due to being executed as such).

[Nightmare]

I can read, you can't write. The bunch of stuff at his rear is supposedly not part of everything? Ah, makes perfect sense. Or does it?


I accept full responsibility for misunderstanding you. "Everything else" was everything minus the bunch of stuff at the rear, including your general. It would have helped if your "report" was written better.

Not sure what the problem is. What part of "the enemy unit was completely surrounded, my general was at his rear along with other stuff, everything charged at the same time including the general and stuff at the rear" don't you understand?


Or did you make the bunch of stuff at the rear attack as well, but not to the middle of the Gaestatae? I am still not sure if you kept the "bunch of stuff at the rear" in reserve or not.

Why would I keep anything in reserve?

"Rear," by the way, means "rear of the enemy unit." In other words, behind the enemy unit so as to hit him from behind. The enemy was surrounded, with stuff at the front, the sides, and THE REAR. My general charged from THE REAR.


If you provide for your own traffic congestion, then of course chariots will not be very effective. Chariots need space. Do you think a turning radius of 2 meters is realistic? What do you think would happen if a horse gets afraid? What if a horse gets slaughtered or loses a leg? Have you ever been on a chariot, and dealt with such eventualities?

Not sure what you're smoking. Perhaps you are just trolling. Traffic congestion was irrelevant, I said THE CHARGE WAS SUCCESSFUL AND PERFECT. I didn't say "I tried to charge but the chariot got congested and didn't get a charge off, then my general died." I also said the general died at the very moment of impact. I also said no other soldiers in my chariot unit died. Ever. So obviously congestion was not a problem, comprehende'?

There's nothing wrong with my writing, there's something wrong with your reading-comprehension.


Just because you don't know how to use chariots effectively does not mean that they are useless. It just means you don't know how to use them.

Nah, it just means lots of people in life reflexively and automatically defend the status-quo about anything, whether it's government, or in this case a game. I could say my elite cataphracts died to archers and you'd sit there and defend it. I could say anything and you'd sit there and defend it.

Furthermore, "don't know how to use them" is a misleading phrase. Obviously, assuming a unit is balanced incorrectly or has overly-weak stats, perhaps the "best way to use it" is to keep it out of all combat, and anyone who tries to put it at risk in hopes of finding some use for it "doesn't know how to use it." So the point has little to do with whether or not someone knows how to use chariots. The point is whether or not they are balanced correctly, whether they need to be redesigned, whether their stats need to be adjusted, etc.

[Nightmare]

A long drawn out battle doesn't gain you anything; all it is is a Pyrrhic victory. With the Chariots, you can end the battle quickly - IF YOU USE THEM CORRECTLY. They are not meant to kill enemy units with their charge; they are not meant for hand to hand combat. Use their javelins; use their fear against enemy units. Disrupt their formations with charging through the enemy units, not into the center of the unit and continue to hack at them in standstill.

Not sure why people are failing to read, or failing to comprehend, what was written. I'll say it for a 4th or 5th time: The general charged (SUCCESSFULLY) the back of the enemy unit and was killed the very instant his chariot touched the back of the enemy unit. No, he wasn't killed 30 seconds or a minute after. HE WAS KILLED THE SECOND HIS CHARIOT TOUCHED THE BACK OF THE ENEMY UNIT. So obviously there was no "hand to hand combat" or "hacking at them in standstill." Also, I said that NO OTHER PEOPLE IN THE UNIT WERE KILLED, PERIOD, PARAGRAPH, END OF STORY. So again, this obviously means I didn't stand there and hack and slash (but even if I did that obviously didn't hurt me whatsoever, as nothing died but the general at the moment of contact with the bare back of the enemy).

[Nightmare]

I don't know if you prefer to play in a more historically accurate or in a fun fashion, but making stacks of only one type of unit (plus FMs) isn't really accurate.

Thanks for the tip, it is much appreciated. But in fact I don't like to play in a historically accurate fashion; otherwise the game might as well just be a video where I don't even participate, and where it just shows me what happened. I already know what happened - Rome eventually won and killed everyone and everything else.

I like to change history. I like to be better, in generalship, in strategy, etc. than whoever or whatever it was that came before me. And I play to win, meaning use whatever units, tactics, and strategies are available to get me the victory. Which is leading me to something that seems somewhat disturbing. It seems all I need to win the game easily and cost-effectively is stacks of slingers :-( which I'm starting to build and just utterly dominate with. But I guess that's another thread for another day.

EDIT: Re-reading that, it came off sounding... not like I wanted it to sound. I respect the way you play. It sounds fun. Perhaps I'll give it a try sometime.

In truth, I've actually played this particular campaign a good bit as you described, not because I wanted to or intended to, but simply because I couldn't build much else except low tier units. The enemy would send swordsmen stacks at me, I'd throw skirmishers and spears back at him out of necessity. Most recently I've been able to build swordsmen stacks of decent quality, but again that's a recent development.

[Ludens]

There's nothing wrong with my writing, there's something wrong with your reading-comprehension.

I misunderstood it as well. Keep it civil, please.

[Nightmare]

I misunderstood it as well. Keep it civil, please.

What? I don't care if you are a moderator or not. He started with the incivility, not me, and while that may be an uncomfortable fact (I'm a newcomer who everyone disagrees with), it is a fact and is recorded right here for everyone to see. I didn't start the incivility, and I'm not gonna be singled out. So if you want to complain about civility, that's perfectly fine, but complain at the person who started the incivility, not me.

EDIT: Without even going over what I initially wrote, if you and he say you misunderstood, I'll accept the blame for not making what I wrote clear - that's not a problem. I won't accept the blame for starting incivility. I didn't do that. Someone else wrote
I can read, you can't write (I never said he couldn't read) and
Just because you don't know how to use chariots effectively does not mean that they are useless. It just means you don't know how to use them.

[Nightmare]

So if the moderator doesn't ban me, here's a question. Most recently I've been able to build Casse Champions and Druids, which after a while of building them up can now deploy a stack. But in comparing the stats of the Casse Champs and Belgae Swords, it seems that the Belgae Swords actually have a point of defense in their favor (granted they are more defensive skill with less armor), in addition to having more men in the unit. This is also at less cost than the Casse Champs. I understand that the Casse Champs have an ability to inspire men; however I really haven't needed such an abilty - my men rarely break and run, except for the occasional unit who's down to 3 men (in which case I don't care if they rout).

I guess my point is, what's in favor of the Casse Champs over the Belgae Swords, if anything? Only thing I can think of is if the enemy is deploying a lot of ranged (he isn't in my campaign) the emphasis on more armor would help? I did spam out a half stack of them or so to see what they're gonna do but haven't gotten them in a battle yet.

Next question - Druids. They seem to have the best stats over the Belgae and Casse Champs with a cheaper cost and upkeep, with the caveat that there are 10 less men in the unit than Belgaes. Thus I figured these are the guys I should probably be massing if I have the dough (which I now do) over the Belgae or Champs. Any reason not to, besides reasons of cost which aren't a problem? Is there something I'm missing? Do the 10 more men in the Belgae against moderately better stats for the Druids make the Belgae better? Again, I've built a bunch of Druids at this point, just haven't been able to get them to where the action is just yet so I haven't been able to test. But the gut instinct seems to tell me Druids might be better, even though these games tend to emphasize lower-tier unit cost-effectiveness.

Thanks.

[athanaric]

[...]
Casse champions have a bigger AoR. Also, they are less useful in defence (smaller shield, smaller numbers, and IIRC looser formation). Champions can be useful for guarding the flanks of your battle line. Milnaht can actually fight in the battle line, which is rare for (non-Roman) swordsmen. In the end, it's more a question of personal taste though.

Druids have a small unit size and no javelins. From the point of historically accurate gameplay, you shouldn't have more than one or two unit(s) of infantry elites/very unusual units in your army (which is what Druids and Casse Champions are). It is more justifiable to have more than two units of Belgae swordsmen in one army - IIRC they are not an "elite unit" in the sense that champions (or Hypaspistai, Solduroi, etc.) are, but rather a high tier professional unit like legionnaires and thus more likely to be found in large numbers.


Perhaps the ultimate "boring, but practical" army for any Celtic faction would be a core of Belgae spearmen and swordsmen, backed up by Celtic slingers, axemen, light and heavy cavalry. This kind of setup will enable you to defeat pretty much anything you are likely to encounter (especially Carthaginians once you take Iberia and/or raid Carthage for the lulz, like I did). Also, most of these units have a big AoR.

[Nightmare]

Bwaahahaahahahahaaha!! Folks, it just doesn't get any better than this! Seriously, I'm not making this up (I'm just not that creative), but you are welcome to disbelieve it... I would!

So if I haven't been banned yet, here's two stories, both occurred back-to-back. First story, I had a small contingent of soldiers backed by a general parked at a bridge to stop harassing attacks from Aedui. So here comes an Aedui stack to attack me. I'm outnumbered, and his troops are somewhat better quality, but I hold the bridge so I'm not too worried because I know how to hold a bridge. So bottom line, he tries to break through but I clog up the bridge and there's a big battle. Eventually he breaks and runs, including his general who had tried to charge through. All of his units are literally down to just a few men each (3 soldiers routing here, 4 soldiers routing there). My priority was to kill his general, WHO WAS DOWN TO A SINGLE MAN, because I'm about to win the game and I didn't want this general just buying up an entire stack of mercenaries and coming right back again. The only thing I had with any hopes of catching him was my chariot general, who I purposefully kept out of all action just so his sorry ass wouldn't die. So I sent him charging across the bridge after the routing, single enemy general. I even said to myself "as impossible as it looks, he's absolutely gonna die, guaranteed, but I don't care." Well, let me tell you guys, I was not to be disappointed! So my chariot general closes with his general and hits him from behind as he's fleeing. The instant my chariots touched the lone fleeing horse from behind, the mini-cinematic cut to my general flying through the air and hitting the ground, wheels coming off his chariot, etc. I laughed out loud and shook my head, putting my head in the palm of my hand as I got the message that my general had been killed. So I kept the rest of his men going after the enemy general, who turned around and started fighting. My chariots went from about 30 down to 4 before the lone enemy horse fell down and died. Honestly, I thought the entire unit of chariots would die, but 4 were left standing.

So very next battle another general ambushes an Averni stack trying to get through to one of my cities. I had supremely good stuff in this stack - pretty much all heavy swordsmen and druids and what not, while his stack was a good bit of riff-raff, so I wasn't worried. But when the map loaded, it was entirely thick forest, like the worst I've ever seen. I could literally see nothing, so I hit the button to retreat, even though I totally outmatched him. So my guys are retreating, and I hit fast mode to go ahead and get it over with. So all my guys are gone and I'm wondering why it hasn't returned to the campaign screen, and I realize OH MY GOD! MY STUPID GENERAL IS STUCK IN THE FOREST! I quickly put the game on slow speed and did anything I could in an effort to unstick him while the enemy closed in. But he was hopelessly stuck (he spawned that way) and couldn't get out. Some cheap enemy levy spears closed in, and the second they touched my general's unit, the general flew through the air, wheels came off the chariot, yadda yadda while I laughed out loud again.

That's it, thanks to whoever it was who gave me the link, because I'm modding these guys out of the game as soon as humanly possible. I swear, these are the worst units I've ever seen in any game in my entire life, but at this point I'm laughing! It's truly funny! And there's an armada of people insisting that the emperor has clothes on when I know damn well he doesn't. I swear I entered the Bizzaro World or the Twilight Zone or some other such place!

[Ludens]

We don't ban people for disagreeing with the moderators. I apologize for not checking this thread as closely as I normally do. I have guests over today, so I am a bit rushed. In any case, if you feel someone is being rude to you, please use the report button.

Chariots word OK for me as long as I use them as support rather than killers, and take care to keep their exposure to enemy weapons to a minimum. They are the most fragile and annoying unit in EB1, though, so I am glad that EB2 will have infantry generals for the Britons. Chariots are also, for some reason, particularly prone to the remaining bugs in the battle-engine, and you seem to have had a run of bad luck in this.

Chariots have their uses: but they make lousy general's units.

[Ludens]

Put it another way: I believe that what you say is true. Your chariots just won't do anything but get themselves killed in the most embarrassing way possible. However, I think the communication problem here goes both ways. Correct me if I am wrong, but I get the impression that you rate units purely on killing power. Chariots just won't kill anything. They might occasionally hit someone with their javelins, but due to the way the engine works they'll rarely use their sword. So in melee they cannot fight back effectively, and due to their size they'll quickly get surrounded and chopped to firewood.

However, chariots are pretty good as a support unit that doesn't kill. The morale penalty won't turn a battle that's going badly, but it will allow you turn the enemy flank much more quickly. You don't even need to engage the chariots: all you need to do is stand near the enemy, preferably behind them to increase the penalty (chariots + javelins + rear threat). The chariots can get away with this due to their mobility and high morale.

Chariots also have multiple hitpoints, so you can use them as a battering ram for enemy formations. Get the chariots to counter-charge the enemy cavalry, then follow up with your own cavalry while the chariots escape on the other side of the enemy formation. You will only kill a few horsemen this way: the main benefit is that the enemy charge is disrupted before your own cavalry slam into them. With enemy infantry this works even better, because the chariots cause so much disruption that the footsloggers won't be able to fight back effectively. Off course, if the chariots get bogged down, they'll get attacked from all directions, and the multiple hitpoints won't last long there.

The R:TW battle engine doesn't allow much scope for support units, so you don't need to use them and it's never worth bringing more than one. Killing power is more important in most instances. But chariots can be useful with a bit of care. And if you absolutely have to kill something with your chariots, use their missiles rather than engage them in melee, 'cause the sword is just for show.

[Nightmare]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I get the impression that you rate units purely on killing power.

After seeing just how sucky they were, I set the bar for chariots pretty low a while back - like EXTREMELY low. I don't expect or want them to have killing power, per se. What I want, as a bare minimum quality in a chariot (or anything else) is for it to be able to survive a "minimum" amount of physical contact with the enemy or with a weapon. War is a contact sport, but as it stands right now, the chariot is literally hard-countered by every single weapon or unit in the game. It is hard-countered by anything that can physically touch it (or that it physically touches). That's just crazy. Light archers or skirmishers or peasants are tougher than chariots.

Just to be clear, I do define a "minimum" amount of contact with the enemy as the ability to charge into the back of an utterly defeated, surrounded enemy who is also getting charged by other units from all other sides, and not die INSTANTANEOUSLY the very instant the chariot touches the back of the enemy unit. No, I didn't say "stay in and get tied up in melee with said enemy unit." I said "don't die the very instant the chariot makes contact with the back of the enemy."

Also in the same "minimum contact" category would be running down fleeing enemies from behind without dying the instant the chariot makes contact with the back of the fleeing enemy. This is just simple, basic stuff. So we are clearly far from heavy infantry or cataphract territory here - I don't want or expect that. I think the bar I set could simply be termed "don't utterly and completely suck."

The chariot is too viciously hard-countered by anything and everything that isn't within it's extremely narrowly-defined role of throwing a couple of javelins and affecting enemy morale. As far as javelins go, I'm not impressed with that ability at all. I've never been able to kill more than a couple of guys max any given battle throwing those things. And if folks say this morale ability is so damn powerful that the thing has to be this ridiculously weak, then I say get rid of the stupid morale ability - something I've never seen it utilize anyway. If it's got some overpowered morale ability, and in exchange it has to be made out of popsicle sticks and confetti glued together, then anyone I know (besides some the posters on this forum, apparently) would not consider that good balance for a unit. For this game it's too esoteric of a balance, too avante-guard, too unrealistic and wild. If the game were full of units like that, it would fit. The game isn't. Most units are very realistic and down to earth. A unit of unarmored slingers can tie up a unit of cavalry in hand-to-hand, for instance (a role far outside their main role). Then you have the jokeiot, I mean chariot - something so physically weak that it cannot touch anything else on the battlefield without breaking into pieces and generals flying through the air. I see absolutely no need for these crippling handicaps. And I don't think it's the game engine, because I used chariots in vanilla RTW, and they were absolutely fine.

Just off hand, I haven't played Pontus or the Selucids. What's the status with their chariots? Aren't they some kind of "heavy chariots" or "scythed chariots" instead of javelin-throwing contraptions? If so, they have to be able to survive physical contact with the enemy, right? So are they overpowered monstrosities of doom, as some people here claim Casse chariots would be if they could survive any physical contact at all? Or are they made of balsa wood too? It doesn't seem like they could fulfill their function if they behaved like the Casse chariots, so what's the word there?

Anyway, thanks for the tips, and an interesting take on an interesting situation.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I vastly prefer the Celtic chariots over the scythed variant. For one, the Celtic ones, while more vulnerable, have much higher morale and won't easily break. The Celtic ones also have command eagles if I'm not mistaken and can toss a few javs here and there while supporting with fear. The Scythed ones are more heavily armored and missile resistant, but have very low morale and will run amok which is a whole new problem. Since I mainly use chariots for the fear penalty, I much perfer the Celtic ones.

[Nightmare]

The campaign ended in 234 BC. Don't know if the more experienced EB players around here consider that a fast victory or not, but either way mistakes were made here and there and I could have done better (it was my first time playing Casse). I do believe the overall strat I set out on initially (mainland strat, attack Aedui) was a good one, apparently, as it was never even close.

How it ended: As I was close to finishing off Averni in the alps, he somehow started sending full stacks at me from all directions, and also the Aedui, who only had one city left above Rome (Metrolanium or something like that). I defeated Averni in the alps, plus sent a stack to take Aedui's last city. I didn't need that as an objective, and I didn't want it (it was gonna cost me time). However, I knew he'd keep sending stacks, so I wanted to eliminate him. I had a diplomat there, and he would not accept being a client state no matter the terms, no matter now much I sweetened the deal, etc. So after taking that last city I put everyone to death.

Upon eliminating Aedui, Averni made peace with Sweboz. I knew this meant Sweboz would start attacking (I was near the end). I also knew Rome would start attacking, so I was already producing as many full stacks as I could out of the most advanced production centers I had, and had been doing this for some while. Sure enough, Rome attacked the very next round (Metrolanium). It was okay, that city was simply there to provide him the path of most resistance, which it did because I took more than one full stack of soldiers with me.

Averni had only three cities left in the south - one a couple cities west of the boot of Italy (on the coast, can't remember the name, but it was a non-objective), and two in north Iberia, both of which were objectives. Beyond those two, I needed only one more city in Iberia to complete all objectives. At any rate, I now positioned defensive stacks around the passes through the alps to protect my eastern flank from the Romans, I positioned a few stacks in the south to protect me from Averni, and I positioned a few stacks in the north to protect me from Sweboz, as I was expecting a backstab.

In the end, Rome did send many stacks through those passes - so many in fact that I had to move stacks positioned to protect from Sweboz in the north down to help defend. Averni also seemed to pull stacks out of thin air as I closed in on his last cities. However, those fell in short order, and so did the Lusitan city which was my last objective. I ended up having to take another Averni city I didn't need (the one west of Italy) to stop attacks from that city. Sweboz never backstabbed me, and a look at the full map upon winning the game revealed that he hadn't done much - there were many rebel cities around him he could have taken. Interestingly, Koinon Hellenon was not only the dominant power in Greece, they had made Epiros a client state and had kicked Macedonia out completely.

Maybe 5 or so seasons before the end, I could produce (gonna try to remember the name) Goidic or Godilic? noble infantry from the north city in Ireland. However, it was too late to start production and try them out, would have taken too long to get them anywhere. But those would have been the heaviest troops I could produce, I believe.

So the most advanced troops I could produce in the end, besides the Goidics which I never got a chance to use, were Druids, midland spears and champions, and Casse champions. I wasn't particularly impressed with any of those. They got the job done and won me the game, but it wasn't a slaughterfest or gorefest with them like it is with troops of some factions. I mean, they won all right, but properly deployed and supported, they'd lose men to celtic spears, and it would take a while to take those spears out. I wish I could have gotten those final reforms and gotten out the two advanced infantry units mentioned somewhere above, but that never happened :-(

I'd say the toughest troops I went against, and the ones that did the most damage to me, were those naked gallic swordsmen. They weren't a factor or an issue if there were just one or two units of them in a battle. But in one battle in particular, the gauls had at least six full units of them, and they were all at least 3 experience. One leveled to 5 experience during the battle. At any rate, it was one of the few lost battles I had - he killed 700-something troops out of a stack of over 1000 I believe, and I killed only like 300 of his or so (normal unit sizes). I had "decent" (cough) swordsmen in that stack also - Casse champs and Belgae swords - and they were upgraded.

Overall, all things considered, including cost, usefulness, ability to get the job done and not disappoint, kill ratio vs. getting killed ratio, etc. I'd say the best performing soldiers I used were celtic axes. What's disappointing about that is, I don't believe it's a unit exclusive to Casse. It seems the gauls can produce them as well, so they are sort of "generic." But if I had to do it again, I'd probably spam more of those guys.

All in all, I'd rate the campaign as easy. As far as fun-factor, I'd say it was one of the lesser fun campaigns I've played thus far, due to the difficulty of getting advanced troop types out and having to slog it out with tons of levy spears and what not. What's worse, the levy stuff and lower-end stuff I had access to seemed worse than the lower end stuff available to my competitiors. My southern gallic swordsmen were worse than northern and alpine, my levy spears were worse than gallic and german. Heck, I even built celtic spears when I could, only to realize that my opponents were deploying their own celtic spears - DIFFERENT, "generic" celtic spears which had a stat point here or there over my own! So it seems the desigers gave me a special celtic spear that was actually worse than generic ones my opponents could build, heh.

However, I'm not knocking the campaign or faction by any means, and I'm sure it could play out differently.

[Nightmare]

Incidentally, I get a lot of CTDs - mainly when going into or coming out of a non-auto resolve battle. It just crashes to desktop with no message, no nothing. Can anyone point me to a resource on this? Thanks.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Plenty of ways to reduce CTD's but with battles, wait until the music is finished playing. For whatever reason that seems to work pretty well.

[PureEvil[PIE]]

I'm just coming here because I want to stick up for the poor Celtic chariots. I think they are fantastic. I thought they were useless the first time I used as I made the mistake I believe most people made with them, then I read this thread and suddenly they were winning all my battles for me after using the proper tactics. And I actually disagree about their killing power, their charge is fantastic and I much prefer them to heavy cav. Due to the simple fact that you can charge THROUGH the enemy unit with little casualties if you use them quickly, once you do this 99/100 times the enemy unit will rout, and since the chariots are already inside the enemy unit and the chariots are huge, the routing enemy unit will be killed almost instantly which helps in the long run of the battle and the campaign (none of them escape/have to chase them down during the battle to make sure they don't come back). I think the celtic chariots are fantastic.

[Nightmare]

If it's that much of a hidden art to properly using the things (making the charge go from worst in the game to "fantastic" as you put it), I'd say that's a sign the balance team screwed up somewhere.

But hey, I'm not here to piss in your cornflakes. Seriously, I'm glad somebody out there likes these things and actually finds good use for them. Maybe it's one of those "you either love them or hate them" kind of things. Cheers.

By the way, is the Casse campaign treating you well? What do you think?

[Lowenklee]

I've played Casse on several occasions...and don't care for the chariots unless the battle is to be on a flat open plain. But then again, I tend to play a defensive game for which I suspect they are ill-suited. I normally reserve them for open-field diversionary, counter-skirmishing, or harassing missions.

Anyway, to the point. Rather than heated debates perhaps someone with a skill for using Celtic chariots more aggressively might record a video clip of them in action? As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

[PureEvil[PIE]]

Well, the Casse campaign was the first one that I completed, I started the Carthaginian and Roma campaigns but I didn't have the motivation to finish as I had had with the Casse. I really enjoyed them, especially the aspect of having to retake your homeland and then having a great base of operations from which to conduct your assaults on the mainland. Though, taking the mainland was quite difficult considering you start off very small :/. But for me, when I got to the mainland it was surprisingly easy to complete my campaigns objectives, I had a sturdy base to get a steady amount of income and troops and Europe was still in turmoil/conflict, there was no faction that was superior so when I arrived I pretty much steam rolled across them. And yes, I agree that the chariots are most likely a "love or hate" unit, I love them for one and think they are more helpful than cavalry :L.

In battle... the Casse are quite epic I think. As you have said before they rarely break, and if you use druids/champions I don't think they will break at all and this is especially good during sieges when you are trying to take a section of the wall or a breach. They don't have the most powerful units in the game for the most of it, they don't have a lot in the killing department in my opinion, but when you get to the last reforms and get Casse late champions, they become a ridiculously resistant line. Casse late champions are, in my opinion, much better at defence that offence, they have a lot of armour - if I remember correctly, compared to the other Casse units - and are quite good at dishing it out. I created an army of elites at one point (I know you aren't supposed to but I did it anyway!) and it pretty much beat every army that it came across. It consisted of Casse late champions, Briton sword masters, two units of druids on each flank to chant, two units of chariots, 2 units of slingers, 2 units of Archers, 2 units of Celtic naked fanatics (for high defence in combat and against cavalry). It was an extremely successful army.

Overall I loved the Casse campaign, a lot more than the Roma and Carthage campaigns to be honest. Though I was probably quite bias as I am English/Welsh (So I believe I am part Celt from my Welsh side of the family) and I WANTED to love it before I started it xD. And I generally love the barbarian factions anyway.

In regards to recording some action of the chariots I will do my best, but I have a mac so I will need to find a decent recording program.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I've played Casse on several occasions...and don't care for the chariots unless the battle is to be on a flat open plain. But then again, I tend to play a defensive game for which I suspect they are ill-suited. I normally reserve them for open-field diversionary, counter-skirmishing, or harassing missions.

Anyway, to the point. Rather than heated debates perhaps someone with a skill for using Celtic chariots more aggressively might record a video clip of them in action? As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

I have some MP battles uploaded on youtube but unfortunately none of them involve chariots. I do have a bunch of replays which do involve them however, so once I get some free time I'll try to put one up.

https://www.youtube.com/user/jschlat1/videos

[seleucid empire]

I dont know why people always complain about chariots. In my casse campaign i blitzed half of britain using my starting army which only had 2 units of celtic spearmen, 2 swordsmen and 2 chariot generals including Barae. The rebel cities in briton were full of midlander champions and druid elites compared to my levies and it was the chariots that made the difference when they had 2:1 advantage over me. I besieged a city and when they sallied i just lined up my crappy infantry in a line and when they charged my infantry I used a single chariot charge to rout their entire infantry force. If your not having an success with chariots then you must be using them really badly. Keep in mind that you NEVER ever click on their units when using chariots. ALWAYS click behind their line so the chariots run through without stopping. you can win with 2:1 strength against you very easily