Gyms Banning Fit People!

[PanzerJaeger]

http://http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/06/29/new-trend-gyms-banning-slim-clients-to-fost


First of all, awesome. I only want to see good looking people when I work out. Fat people can go be fat somewhere else.

Second, if businesses can discriminate based on body features, can that be extended to things like hair type?

Also, where can I sign up to join the National Association To Advance Fat Acceptance?

[HoreTore]

Fat acceptance?

I'd rather say this is about creating a place where self-conscious fat guys can try to lose weight...

I support things like this only on a case by case basis, not by principle. This one sounds like a good idea, even thiugh I can't open the article for some reason.

[Lemur]

You link, she is broken, I give you good one here (http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/06/29/new-trend-gyms-banning-slim-clients-to-foster-comfort-for-overweight-patrons/).

[PanzerJaeger]

Fat acceptance?

I'd rather say this is about creating a place where self-conscious fat guys can try to lose weight...

I support things like this only on a case by case basis, not by principle. This one sounds like a good idea, even thiugh I can't open the article for some reason.

iPad posting still gives me trouble:

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/06/29/new-trend-gyms-banning-slim-clients-to-foster-comfort-for-overweight-patrons/

Edit: Beat me to it, Lemur...

[HoreTore]

iPad posting still gives me trouble:

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/06/29/new-trend-gyms-banning-slim-clients-to-foster-comfort-for-overweight-patrons/

Edit: Beat me to it, Lemur...

Well, there's a gym here that caters to bodybuilders, and I'm quite okay with that...

[PanzerJaeger]

Well, there's a gym here that caters to bodybuilders, and I'm quite okay with that...

What about a gym catering to people with blonde hair?

[HoreTore]

What about a gym catering to people with blonde hair?

Now you're venturing into bizarroland, and you know it ~;)

As I said, I'm not a fan of riding principles in these cases, it must be judged on a case by case basis. If this gym means that more overweight people start excercising, then I see it as a good thing.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

http://http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/06/29/new-trend-gyms-banning-slim-clients-to-fost


First of all, awesome. I only want to see good looking people when I work out. Fat people can go be fat somewhere else.

Second, if businesses can discriminate based on body features, can that be extended to things like hair type?

Also, where can I sign up to join the National Association To Advance Fat Acceptance?

The concept is a fail - that thin guy is there to show you how hard you have to work to be like him, likewise the body builder with boobs is there to show you that roids and weights are bad.

If you are surrounded by fat people you will be disinclined to work as hard, and you will have the absurd situation that you may eventually be banned from your GYM for using it.

[Montmorency]

This is actually standard procedure for authoritarian governments, more or less.

[HoreTore]

This is actually standard procedure for authoritarian governments, more or less.

Hmm? It's standard procedure for authoritarian governements not to intervene with how private companies are run...?

[PanzerJaeger]

Now you're venturing into bizarroland, and you know it ~;)

I know. I'm trying to pry a backroom debate out of what probably should have been a frontroom topic.


and you will have the absurd situation that you may eventually be banned from your GYM for using it.

Hah! Consider it a graduation of sorts.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Reading the article, it seems this could be about gyms specifically catering fat women? At any rate the fat acceptance spokeswoman seems to think so?

Q1: how does this even make business sense?
Q2: how is this even different from women only gyms?
Q3: could someone please explain why anyone would prefer to go the gym over, say, joining a club for some team sport ?

[Montmorency]

Hmm? It's standard procedure for authoritarian governements not to intervene with how private companies are run...?

No, the gym.

It's a hamster wheel.

The environment encourages vanity and complacency. This creates stagnation. Those few who rise above are thus -
and you will have the absurd situation that you may eventually be banned from your GYM for using it. - removed by their own success.

The membership fees keep flowing in.

It's brilliant. I like it.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Reading the article, it seems this could be about gyms specifically catering fat women? At any rate the fat acceptance spokeswoman seems to think so?

Q1: why does this even make business sense?
Q2: how is this even different from women only gyms?
Q3: can anybody explain to me why anyone would prefer to go the gym over, say, joining a club for some team sport ?

People go to the GYM to feel good about "exercising", put the treadmill on 4 mph, do it for 20 minutes, work up a sweat and feel like you accomplished something.

As opposed to what I did today - go running cross country and on roads for half an hour in light rain, come back do a few dozen sittups, some pressups etc.

Yeah... I'm not as fit as I used to be, but unlike people who go to the GYM I'm trying to do something about it.

[HoreTore]

Reading the article, it seems this could be about gyms specifically catering fat women? At any rate the fat acceptance spokeswoman seems to think so?

Q1: how does this even make business sense?
Q2: how is this even different from women only gyms?
Q3: could someone please explain why anyone would prefer to go the gym over, say, joining a club for some team sport ?

Q1: that remains to be seen. I think there's a potential for it. Anyway, if it doesn't make sense, the problem will disappear on its own due to bankruptcy. However, as thearticle suggest its a growing trend, there seems to be value in it.
Q2: it's not.
Q3: well, firstly because they might not enjoy team sports. Secondly, a gym let's you excercise just the muscles you want, when you want. Playing football, for example, you don't build much upper body, so you'd have to hit the gym for that. Then you have those with sports injuries, of course. As for myself, I go to the gym to work out. I play football for fun, I have no fitness angle when playing football.

[PanzerJaeger]

The gym is what you make of it. All the tools for success are there for a number of fitness goals. You have to have the knowledge to use them correctly and the dedication to use them consistently, though.

[HoreTore]

The gym is what you make of it. All the tools for success are there for a number of fitness goals. You have to have the knowledge to use them correctly and the dedication to use them consistently, though.

Agreed completely.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Q1: that remains to be seen. I think there's a potential for it. Anyway, if it doesn't make sense, the problem will disappear on its own due to bankruptcy. However, as thearticle suggest its a growing trend, there seems to be value in it.

There seems to be, but from the article it's also clear that this market segment is reluctant to make the purchase (i.e. actually go to the gym). I can see how they might appreciate being among fat people when they exercise, but I don't see why your average gym cannot have a "fat people day" or something (and that would then "cover" the market). Unless there's something about Canada/USA that I don't know which makes the market by value a lot bigger than it would seem to me?


Q2: it's not.
Also, it is apparently not frowned upon.

Q3: well, firstly because they might not enjoy team sports. Secondly, a gym let's you excercise just the muscles you want, when you want. Playing football, for example, you don't build much upper body, so you'd have to hit the gym for that. Then you have those with sports injuries, of course. As for myself, I go to the gym to work out. I play football for fun, I have no fitness angle when playing football.
Yeah but that was a trick question. I just don't get the "I don't like team sports but I do love the thread mill" vibe if you know what I mean? Anyway if you want to stay fit Philip's approach is far superior than the gym for the simple reason that it is outdoors.

[HoreTore]

Yeah but that was a trick question. I just don't get the "I don't like team sports but I do love the thread mill" vibe if you know what I mean? Anyway if you want to stay fit Philip's approach is far superior than the gym for the simple reason that it is outdoors.

To each his own.

Personally I don't do condition training, so.... And yeah, training with weights is a lot more effective than pushups.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

To each his own.

Personally I don't do condition training, so.... And yeah, training with weights is a lot more effective than pushups.

GYM fit.


Gyms are not only for getting into shape, but for maintaining that shape once you get it. Its absurd to deny fit people entry unless it is specifically some kind of 'Fix your Fatness' program.

The whole thing seems absurd.

Personally, I don't even go to the gym. I do push-ups, pull-ups, and other machines-not-required exercises in my home; then I go for a run around the neighborhood.

Army fit.

Like Cube, I do pushups, sittups, I would do pullups but as I discovered today my arm and shoulders muscles are badly out of condition. The point about that is, I know I my arms cannot currently lift my own body weight by main force alone, if I put 140lb on a machine I could probably do a couple of reps, pull some muscles, and believe that in a pinch I could pull myself over a wall.

Instead, I know I need to do some serious work to get back to the peak condition I had at 21, when I could fairly bounce over a six foot wall.

Funny story that, I was 18 first time I did it. Military Cadets, being kids, tend to need a leg up but the senior cadets are expected to do the six foot wall by themselves, or at least attempt it. I took my run up, jumped, and suddenly discovered that instead of hanging onto the wall bby my fingertips I had managed to get both forearms up there - I was so stunned I spent several seconds just looking left and right - until the drill seargent screamed at me.

Ah - I wish I hadn't busted my ankle, I could have gone Green.

*Goes to happy place with sharply ironed uniforms, shiny boots, and automatic weapons.*

[HoreTore]

Bah, I started going to the gym when I was in the army, and has stayed at it since.

And as I've said previously, each to his own.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I wouldn't call it 'army' fit. I never saw more gym-bound muscle-heads anywhere in my life than in the Army. To be perfectly honest raw strength is more useful than anything else in combat, because really heavy things (and people) often need to be moved quickly.

Thankfully, I'm a civilian, and I work out to look good more than anything else. Which means its all about conditioning for me.

Pull-ups, by the way, are the greatest exercise in the world. You'll start off barely able to do one, but once all those muscles start getting stronger (because pull-ups work out a ton of different muscles) you'll be doing dozens before you know it. A little door-hanging pull-up bar is one of the best investments you can make.

To be fair - I'm probably talking more historically now - though even today the average British squaddy is not that big - it's quite extraordinary when you think about it, those guys are fit, sure, but there isn't an ounce of extra fat or muscle.

Which I suppose makes sense.

[Xiahou]

It's a fitness club. I really don't care what criteria they set for membership. If it's a good business model for them- go for it. :shrug:

[Centurion1]

Fat people are the bane of my existence. I do not like them and I do not make any sort of concessions for them.

This is stupidity incarnate. I am sick of fat people fighting for their "rights"; It disgusts me. I say we encourage the populace to humiliate them. It is good for the government and good for the individuals themselves physically.

/rant

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yeah, the US Army has a serious body-building culture, moreso in recent years. This is helped by the US Army Combatives programs being strongholds of MMA goodness, I think.

OT: I expect it has to do with the current American culture of strongpoints and giving people lots of body armour. If the Taleban were good shots you'd soon see American soldiers dropping the armour and the excess muscle in favour of being able to move from cover to cover more quickly. Likewise, the US is the most mechanised army in the world, which is fine for counter insurgency but would not serve them quite so well in the Jungle, or even European forests.

Of course, other nations have gone this way too - but the US definately led the way.


Fat people are the bane of my existence. I do not like them and I do not make any sort of concessions for them.

This is stupidity incarnate. I am sick of fat people fighting for their "rights"; It disgusts me. I say we encourage the populace to humiliate them. It is good for the government and good for the individuals themselves physically.

/rant

Somewhat extreme, I think, but even so I have to agree with the general thrust of the argument. Fate people are fat, they should be helped to lose weight not accomodated at the expense of everybody else.

At the end of the day you get fat by eating too much - there's nothing else to it, the rest is just psychological.

[Centurion1]

OT: I expect it has to do with the current American culture of strongpoints and giving people lots of body armour. If the Taleban were good shots you'd soon see American soldiers dropping the armour and the excess muscle in favour of being able to move from cover to cover more quickly. Likewise, the US is the most mechanised army in the world, which is fine for counter insurgency but would not serve them quite so well in the Jungle, or even European forests.

Of course, other nations have gone this way too - but the US definately led the way.



Somewhat extreme, I think, but even so I have to agree with the general thrust of the argument. Fate people are fat, they should be helped to lose weight not accomodated at the expense of everybody else.

At the end of the day you get fat by eating too much - there's nothing else to it, the rest is just psychological.

Yeah it is a little extreme but I just get sick of seeing these fats (I will be referring to them as "fats" from now on) parading around their disgusting lack of self control as some sort of disease or condition. Unless laziness has become a disease then there is no excuse. Obviously I like anyone else has fat friends. But i'm not quiet about it. IE if we start making fun of each other i'm not going to act like they have cancer and not make fun of them for it.

Fats disgust me. Maybe I'm lucky and have good genetics.... or maybe its because I work out all the time and I don't eat like a bear preparing for hibernation. Genetics certainly play a part but they can be overcome.

If your a fat and your legitimately trying to improve yourself and get better i'll be right behind you cheering you on. But if your a big lazy slob don't surprised if I look at you with disgust.

Military talk here.

Best part about the Army is the culture of fitness surrounding it. There are obviously some fats (by army standards) in my ROTC battalion but they are not looked favorably upon. They are either made fun of or somewhat shunned. I mean if you can't pass a PT test...... kill yourself. Like GC said there are a plethora of monsters with huge upper bodies. They arent as bad as your average chicken leg bodybuilders because first and foremost you have to run in the army. But yeah the Army makes everyone a fitness nut to some extent usually. (Usually not always, mind you)

[Greyblades]

It also seems to make everyone develope superiority complexes.

[Centurion1]

Well Physically I am superior to a fat. They could be smarter than me sure but I think its pretty clear that anyone who is fat is pretty low on the totem pole in regards to physical superiority.

[Greyblades]

Time to time, person to person, superiority is a matter of perspective. To an 18th century man you are inferior because your physique indicates you have make a living with hard manual labour, something that the "superior" upper class didn't have to do.

Back to my point, I take issue with your post because it was word for word useable for any type of bigotry just by replacing the word fats with poofta and negro.

[Centurion1]

Time to time, person to person, superiority is a matter of perspective. To an 18th century man you are inferior because your physique indicates you have make a living with hard manual labour, something that the "superior" upper class didn't have to do.

Back to my point, I take issue with your post because it was word for word useable for any type of bigotry just by replacing the word fats with poofta and negro.

Obviously you have taken a personal issue with this for reasons unknown to me though I could hazard a guess. Yeah and if I replace it with pedophile that works too. So I guess i'm a pedophile bigot as well. I think I can live with that.

I'm not even going to address this because of its glaring inaccuracies.


Time to time, person to person, superiority is a matter of perspective. To an 18th century man you are inferior because your physique indicates you have make a living with hard manual labour, something that the "superior" upper class didn't have to do.


there is nothing that conveys an actual superiority about being a slob and never will be.

[Greyblades]

Obviously you have taken a personal issue with this for reasons unknown to me though I could hazard a guess. Yeah and if I replace it with pedophile that works too. So I guess i'm a pedophile bigot as well. I think I can live with that.
Cute. Pedophiles do something that noone else wants them to do and have an instinctual desire to stop them doing. Fat people are just fat. Your bigotry is dumb and complaining about people who complain about themselves is self defeating.

there is nothing that conveys an actual superiority about being a slob and never will be.
In your opinion, as I said; perspective. In a society where the average man has to work hard for a living the person who can afford to be a fat slob is considered superior because he is smart or lucky enough to become rich enough to do it without starving.

[Montmorency]

In your opinion, as I said; perspective. In a society where the average man has to work hard for a living the person who can afford to be a fat slob is considered superior because he is smart or lucky enough to become rich enough to do it without starving.

By slaves and sycophants. :wink:


They could be smarter than me sure but I think its pretty clear that anyone who is fat is pretty low on the totem pole in regards to physical superiority.

Don't make the mistake of underestimating a middle-aged fat man. There may well be thick slabs of muscle hidden beneath.

[Centurion1]

By slaves and sycophants. :wink:



Don't make the mistake of underestimating a middle-aged fat man. There may well be thick slabs of muscle hidden beneath.

There are levels of obesity of course :bow:

Grey blades if I rePlace fat with pedophile that works too!!!! Congratulations we've come in a full circle to the opposite direction. In no European society in the history of the continent as you claimed has being
Obese been a good attribute. Your wrong and obviously bothered personally by
My opinion which suggests you need to consider this more objectively.

[Greyblades]

There are levels of obesity of course :bow:

Greyblades if I replace fat with pedophile that works too!!!! Congratulations we've come in a full circle to the opposite direction. Did I misphrase it? Did I stutter? Your rhetoric was one word change from being a recognised hate speech, I object that you would speak of fat people the same way Stormfront would a black guy.

In no European society in the history of the continent as you claimed has being Obese been a good attribute. Your wrong and obviously bothered personally by My opinion which suggests you need to consider this more objectively.
...Obese. This whole time you were saying fat when you meant obese.
http://robinbrown.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/facepalm-500x4001.jpg
When I thought you meant:
http://us.123rf.com/400wm/107/201/sumners/sumners0901/sumners090100013/4109801-a-cigar-smoking-slightly-overweight-bald-male-wearing-an-animal-print-skirt-and-pointing-at-you--so-.jpg
You meant:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/Fat_bastard.jpeg


...I dont know which of us has been stupider.

[PanzerJaeger]

The key thing about bigotry is choice, or a lack there of. Race, gender, ethnicity - these are things that cannot be changed. (You'll note that I excluded religion, which usually makes the list. I do not think people should receive any protection if they choose to believe stupid things.) That's why there is this faux debate about whether it is bigotry to dislike gays for being gay. They can't choose attraction, but they do choose to act on it. Some don't even believe the former is true.

Fat people, however, are fat by choice. It is harder for some than others to avoid it, but not that hard. There is nothing wrong with recognizing poor chosen behavior in others and calling it out - just like smoking, drunk driving, or drug use. And in fact, the myriad of social costs fat people impose on our societies ranks it right up there with those vices I just mentioned as a behavior that should not be accommodated.

Now of course common decency dictates that people should not be mocked in the streets. That's not what I mean. The movement towards 'fat acceptance', however, should not be tolerated. Poor self control should not be legitimated, and instead be treated as the vice that it is.

[Centurion1]

Sigh thank you panzer.....

Fat and obese are the same thing Greyblades. Obese is the only one with any kind of indicator with a BMI of greater than 30% meaning an obese person. Fat is a term of perspective, thus essentially interchangeable. So while i commend your attempt to resolve this point of discourse I don't see your point.

[Greyblades]

For me, Fat is a catch all term for anyone who is considered overweight, covering everyone from slightly chubby to whale, obese is being so overweight you cant run.
You were saying "Fats disgust me" and your overall tone came off as if these fats were inferior to you just by being fats. Considering my understanding that fats in this case meant anyone who wasnt skinny/bodybuilder, your post came off to me as elitist disgust for people who had any body fat, which is something I expect from paris hilton inspired squits. I reacted accordingly with the amount of scorn I reserve for said elitists. As for obese people disgusting you, that is sort of acceptable as reaching that point usually requires actual effort to end up as, and I apologise for taking it badly.

[HoreTore]

What would the Right be without people to hate?

Sometimes I hate being Norwegian, since Raga Rockers made the perfect song for this thread, called "Someone to Hate". Unfortunately, it fails due to language...

Anyway Centurion, why on earth did you go on a bender about "fat acceptance" and such in this thread, which is about fat people trying to stop being fat people? Sounds more like some deep-rooted personal issues to me...

[Centurion1]

What would the Right be without people to hate?

Sometimes I hate being Norwegian, since Raga Rockers made the perfect song for this thread, called "Someone to Hate". Unfortunately, it fails due to language...

Anyway Centurion, why on earth did you go on a bender about "fat acceptance" and such in this thread, which is about fat people trying to stop being fat people? Sounds more like some deep-rooted personal issues to me...

Sigh... what I said is that we should not make excuses for fat people like they are some sort of sickly or ill person through no fault of our own and make concessions like a gym banning fit people for the fats feelings or when it gets to the point when you can't tell some fat slob without getting sued, hey bro you gotta get two airline seats.

My point is simply that we should not be giving fat people any sort of special treatment. Also if you read my posts you would see I said that I cheer the loudest for people legitimately trying to improve themselves.


For me, Fat is a catch all term for anyone who is considered overweight, covering everyone from slightly chubby to whale, obese is being so overweight you cant run.
You were saying "Fats disgust me" and your overall tone came off as if these fats were inferior to you just by being fats. Considering my understanding that fats in this case meant anyone who wasnt skinny/bodybuilder, your post came off to me as elitist disgust for people who had any body fat, which is something I expect from paris hilton inspired squits. I reacted accordingly with the amount of scorn I reserve for said elitists. As for obese people disgusting you, that is sort of acceptable as reaching that point usually requires actual effort to end up as, and I apologise for taking it badly.

First of all you should rethink your definition of fat. If you call someone fat the connotation doesnt stretch from chubby to obese..... it means Fat or obese. There are quite a few chubby people in our respective society's whom i would not refer to as fat.

Also thank you for agreeing with me. Because by lumping my school of thought as elitist you are thus implicitly saying that "skinny/bodybuilder types" are superior.

I WINZ

[HoreTore]

So, Centurion, you would rather have fat people stay fat than have the FREE MARKET provide a service for them to loose weight...?

[Hooahguy]

This whole thing is utterly ridiculous.
Id say Im overweight, but Im working on it. Im dieting, I go running, I lift weights at home. I dont go to a gym because I cant afford membership, but I make do with the resources I have.
Am I going to say I dont want fit people running at the same time I do because it makes me feel uncomfortable? Give me a break! If anything it inspires me to become more like them and less like the person I was.

People need to suck it up and accept that if they are in a gym, they probably want to get into shape. Now what kind of message does it send if the embodiment of your goal is being banned from your gym?

[Greyblades]

I WINZ
http://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/2010/2/6/129099485652147612.jpg

[Tellos Athenaios]

The key thing about bigotry is choice, or a lack there of. Race, gender, ethnicity - these are things that cannot be changed. (You'll note that I excluded religion, which usually makes the list. I do not think people should receive any protection if they choose to believe stupid things.) That's why there is this faux debate about whether it is bigotry to dislike gays for being gay. They can't choose attraction, but they do choose to act on it. Some don't even believe the former is true.

Fat people, however, are fat by choice. It is harder for some than others to avoid it, but not that hard. There is nothing wrong with recognizing poor chosen behavior in others and calling it out - just like smoking, drunk driving, or drug use. And in fact, the myriad of social costs fat people impose on our societies ranks it right up there with those vices I just mentioned as a behavior that should not be accommodated.

Now of course common decency dictates that people should not be mocked in the streets. That's not what I mean. The movement towards 'fat acceptance', however, should not be tolerated. Poor self control should not be legitimated, and instead be treated as the vice that it is.

Although a counter point, and something that cannot be adequately "filed" under this world view is the rate of obesity among children. It would be a bit too simple to say it's all the kid's fault. (Additionally there are a few diseases/disorders which lead you to being fat, even if you starve yourself to death.)

[HoreTore]

This whole thing is utterly ridiculous.
Id say Im overweight, but Im working on it. Im dieting, I go running, I lift weights at home. I dont go to a gym because I cant afford membership, but I make do with the resources I have.
Am I going to say I dont want fit people running at the same time I do because it makes me feel uncomfortable? Give me a break! If anything it inspires me to become more like them and less like the person I was.

People need to suck it up and accept that if they are in a gym, they probably want to get into shape. Now what kind of message does it send if the embodiment of your goal is being banned from your gym?

And I don't like going to a gym full of body-builders, hence why I go to a gym where you don't find those. I also don't like being sorrounded by sweaty and corpulent middle-aged men taking their bikeshorts off in the locker room, so I don't work out on mondays and wednesdays around 8. I do, however, quite enjoy working out with Olympic gold winner Vibeke Skofterud, so I try to work out before noon whenever I can during off-season..

The power of free choice, eh? We can all find what we're looking for! Something fo me, something for you, so ething for everyone! Now, why exactly do you oppose a free market creating something for people other than yourself? Shouldn't businesses be allowed to create the services they believe will generate profits?

[Montmorency]

Just eat a kilogram of butter a day, you'll do fine.

[Hooahguy]

And I don't like going to a gym full of body-builders, hence why I go to a gym where you don't find those. I also don't like being sorrounded by sweaty and corpulent middle-aged men taking their bikeshorts off in the locker room, so I don't work out on mondays and wednesdays around 8. I do, however, quite enjoy working out with Olympic gold winner Vibeke Skofterud, so I try to work out before noon whenever I can during off-season..

The power of free choice, eh? We can all find what we're looking for! Something fo me, something for you, so ething for everyone! Now, why exactly do you oppose a free market creating something for people other than yourself? Shouldn't businesses be allowed to create the services they believe will generate profits?

I have no problem with people starting a gym tailored for fat people. I understood from the title that gyms were banning fit patrons who they previously let in.

[HoreTore]

I have no problem with people starting a gym tailored for fat people. I understood from the title that gyms were banning fit patrons who they previously let in.

So a business doesn't have the right to change its business model?

[Hooahguy]

At the expense of kicking out loyal patrons?

[Strike For The South]

Being fat or fit is not soley a reflection of how much willpower one has.


But by all means lets let the circle jerk continue.

[Centurion1]

So, Centurion, you would rather have fat people stay fat than have the FREE MARKET provide a service for them to loose weight...?

Good job on putting words in my mouth that at no point have i ever said. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[Centurion1]

Being fat or fit is not soley a reflection of how much willpower one has.


But by all means lets let the circle jerk continue.

It is the predominant factor more so than genetics.

[HoreTore]

At the expense of kicking out loyal patrons?

So, a business should not be free to choose how they run their business.

Thanks for clarifying.

[HoreTore]

Good job on putting words in my mouth that at no point have i ever said. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

I never said you said it(notice ze queztion mark at ze end), but this is what you're arguing against.

Unless, of course, you support gyms like the one in the OP.

[Hooahguy]

Also, what determines "fat"? BMI? Waist size?

Look, I have no problem with creating a gym that caters for the overweight. But when the national trend is moving towards gyms which previously accepted all body types kicking out the fit, I think thats just wrong.

[Strike For The South]

It is the predominant factor more so than genetics.

No the predominant factor is excess and a buisness model that makes bad food cheap.

You can spend 10 dollars at McDonalds and receive double your reccomended calories for the day. Then you get into the whole issues of food deserts, places where there is no supermarket in miles of residential areas. Then there is the issue of culture placing premiums on bad foods becuase they used to be scarce and now are not.

You, being upper middle class, white, and a Northener were able to evade some of these pitfalls eaiser than others. I know you think it's becuase you are superior than these people but it's not.


BMI

Worthless metric. At my most fit my BMI was considered obese. I like VO2 maxes

[Centurion1]

I never said you said it(notice ze queztion mark at ze end), but this is what you're arguing against.

Unless, of course, you support gyms like the one in the OP.

No your understanding of the position is a bit flawed my viking comrade. I can support fats going to gyms and improving themselves and as I said, "I'll be the most supprotive one there" but I do not support fats getting any sort of special recognition or accommodation made for them. If they are so sensitive they think that people are watching their fat unattractive *** work out instead oft he smokeshow on the elliptical in yoga pants they have some serious issues.

So Horetore my counter question is.... do you support making special accommodations for overweight people and making sure they never feel different unless its advantageous for them?

[Centurion1]

No the predominant factor is excess and a buisness model that makes bad food cheap.

You can spend 10 dollars at McDonalds and receive double your reccomended calories for the day. Then you get into the whole issues of food deserts, places where there is no supermarket in miles of residential areas. Then there is the issue of culture placing premiums on bad foods becuase they used to be scarce and now are not.

You, being upper middle class, white, and a Northener were able to evade some of these pitfalls eaiser than others. I know you think it's becuase you are superior than these people but it's not.



Worthless metric. At my most fit my BMI was considered obese. I like VO2 maxes

BMI is worthless im in great shape (at least i think so) and it says i'm overweight, its a metric for populations not individuals.

So now your trying to cow me by saying oh only poor people understand what its like to be forced into being overweight.

A. You are whiter than me as I have other blood in me so kindly shut your mouth
B. you don't my parents current financial status or how it was growing up so please shut your mouth
C. That is just insulting and I am not so please kindly shut your mouth.

Nobody forces you to eat your meals at mcdonalds and there are healthier alternative you can buy for cheap a the grocery store. You can get your fill of decent food for far less than 10 dollars a day if you need to.


places where there is no supermarket in miles of residential areas.

im not even going to address that

[HoreTore]

No your understanding of the position is a bit flawed my viking comrade. I can support fats going to gyms and improving themselves and as I said, "I'll be the most supprotive one there" but I do not support fats getting any sort of special recognition or accommodation made for them. If they are so sensitive they think that people are watching their fat unattractive *** work out instead oft he smokeshow on the elliptical in yoga pants they have some serious issues.

So Horetore my counter question is.... do you support making special accommodations for overweight people and making sure they never feel different unless its advantageous for them?

If a business thinks they can make money on that; sure.

But since I am no real supporter of a free market, I'm not principled here. But I would assume a free market supporter to be more principled in favour of a business' right to run itself without interference. "If it benefits the business, it benefits society", eh?

[Strike For The South]

BMI is worthless im in great shape (at least i think so) and it says i'm overweight, its a metric for populations not individuals.
yup

So now your trying to cow me by saying oh only poor people understand what its like to be forced into being overweight.
Force is the wrong word. It is not, however, just a matter of willpower.



A. You are whiter than me as I have other blood in me so kindly shut your mouth
B. you don't my parents current financial status or how it was growing up so please shut your mouth
C. That is just insulting and I am not so please kindly shut your mouth.

All one has to do is quickly peruse through your posting history. You could have been born a poor black child, but I doubt it. Not that there is anything wrong with that, you play the hand you are dealt. I'm not sipping any haterade, just pointing out that some people are born on 3rd base and think they hit a triple.

If you were anyone of those three things at any point I wager you would have devolped some empathy. Refering to people as "fats" is immature and a marker of how much critical thinking you do. I think I'll start calling you a weak.



Nobody forces you to eat your meals at mcdonalds and there are healthier alternative you can buy for cheap a the grocery store. You can get your fill of decent food for far less than 10 dollars a day if you need to.

You may be able to stretch 10 dollars a day for a single person, maybe. You will still be defficent in certain things. But for a family, you can't and it becomes a fiscal necesatity to buy the processed crap.


im not even going to address that
http://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/food-desert-locator/go-to-the-locator.aspx

Probably one of Obamas scare tactics

[Centurion1]

yup

Force is the wrong word. It is not, however, just a matter of willpower.




All one has to do is quickly peruse through your posting history. You could have been born a poor black child, but I doubt it. Not that there is anything wrong with that, you play the hand you are dealt. I'm not sipping any haterade, just pointing out that some people are born on 3rd base and think they hit a triple.

If you were anyone of those three things at any point I wager you would have devolped some empathy. Refering to people as "fats" is immature and a marker of how much critical thinking you do. I think I'll start calling you a weak.




You may be able to stretch 10 dollars a day for a single person, maybe. You will still be defficent in certain things. But for a family, you can't and it becomes a fiscal necesatity to buy the processed crap.


http://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/food-desert-locator/go-to-the-locator.aspx

Probably one of Obamas scare tactics

Shut your mouth. This is the internet so I don't deal in anecdotes but you do not know my history so stop trying to place labels on me when you have no idea how I grew up.


Probably one of Obamas scare tactics

good job that chart is freaking worthless. My county in Maryland is on that chart you idiot. And trust me there are plenty of grocery stores.

[Strike For The South]

And the lesson here is labeling people hurts.

Doesn't feel very good does it?

Thank you for allowing me to make that tangential point

[Centurion1]

And the lesson here is labeling people hurts.

Doesn't feel very good does it?

And the lesson here is your chart was worthless and your comparison invalid because of the inherent differences between being fat, being non white, and being poor.

Tell me which of those do you have the most control over.

[Strike For The South]

And the lesson here is your chart was worthless and your comparison invalid because of the inherent differences between being fat, being non white, and being poor.

Tell me which of those do you have the most control over.

Food deserts are a real thing, cheetos are 1/3 of the cost of a single peice of fruit. I can repeat this ad nauseuam but you wont budge.

http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/ap-administrative-publication/ap-036.aspx

I can produce study after study.

Being born into a family of poor minorites certainly does not help.

[Hooahguy]

Guys, calm down. Its just fat people.

[Strike For The South]

Guys, calm down. Its just fat people.

It's not just fat people. It's an empathy issue. People often chalk up to merit what is only the result of luck

[Hooahguy]

Sarcasm is dead.

[Centurion1]

Food deserts are a real thing, cheetos are 1/3 of the cost of a single peice of fruit. I can repeat this ad nauseuam but you wont budge.

http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/ap-administrative-publication/ap-036.aspx

I can produce study after study.

Being born into a family of poor minorites certainly does not help.

My county is on that chart. And being completely unbiased I can say that access to grocery stores are pretty easily accessible to everyone. What it may not do is report grocery stores that aren't major chains.

[Strike For The South]

My county is on that chart. And being completely unbiased I can say that access to grocery stores are pretty easily accessible to everyone. What it may not do is report grocery stores that aren't major chains.

So all these studies are lying to us? They are all not counting "mom and pop" grocery stores (usually the biggest peddlers of the processed and nutirent defficent.)

This thread has reminded me why I stay away from this topic.

[Montmorency]

Going through the site, it seems the methodology varied significantly by location; at different points "10 different types of food stores", supermarkets, and chain grocers were counted.

From the summary, however:
Access to a supermarket or large grocery store[...]

:shrug:

Too late...

[Centurion1]

So all these studies are lying to us? They are all not counting "mom and pop" grocery stores (usually the biggest peddlers of the processed and nutirent defficent.)

This thread has reminded me why I stay away from this topic.

No they don't. Which I can tell you because I read the Data for where I live. please continue to stay away though.

[Strike For The South]

The fact this is a forigen concept to the majority of you further illustrates the cognitive dissconnect.

There are two or three contrian studies to the food desert concept but let's assume that everyone makes it to a store

How do we fix the broken model that skews toward the cheap and the processed.

Your bread has corn syrup in it, your meat is fed with corn grain, chances are your meat is trucked cross country from one of the four big packers. Anything to keep it cheap I suppose

[Kralizec]

I don't really care about gyms that cater only to fat people*. I think the reasoning behind it is unsound, but I suppose that's something you can agree or disagree about. It's pretty crass however (not to mention disloyal) to deny customers that you previously let in, as Hoah said.

On another note: I've always been a pretty scrawny fellow. In recent years I've put on some more muscle but I'm still thin. A lot of my friends have pot bellies or worse and make fun of my physique every now and then. I've even been compared with concentration camp captives. That's okay with me; I can appreciate the worst of jokes even when directed at myself. But when I call them fat in response, not all of them can take what they dish out :shrug:

(* if "fat" is offensive, please replace the term with "gravitationally disadvantaged")

[HoreTore]

I don't really care about gyms that cater only to fat people*. I think the reasoning behind it is unsound, but I suppose that's something you can agree or disagree about. It's pretty crass however (not to mention disloyal) to deny customers that you previously let in, as Hoah said.

A lot of people come into the gas station down the road for a cup of coffee on their way to work. If they stopped serving coffee, that would upset the morning routine of their loyal customers and force them to go elsewhere. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Whether or not its a sound business decision to have a gym only for fat people will be decided by market laws. As it seems to be a growing trend, it suggests that it is indeed a good decision. There is a market demand for such a service, and so the service appears. If there isn't a market demand, the service disappears.

[Hooahguy]

There arent a plethora of gyms in most places as there are coffee shops. In my area there is only one gym within a seven mile radius.

[Kralizec]

A lot of people come into the gas station down the road for a cup of coffee on their way to work. If they stopped serving coffee, that would upset the morning routine of their loyal customers and force them to go elsewhere. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Whether or not its a sound business decision to have a gym only for fat people will be decided by market laws. As it seems to be a growing trend, it suggests that it is indeed a good decision. There is a market demand for such a service, and so the service appears. If there isn't a market demand, the service disappears.

I agree with this. It's just a rather dickish thing to do. But being a dick is not illegal in itself, nor should it be :shrug:

Frankly, I expect that the concept will fail. Gyms are boring and only people who are seriously committed to losing weight/building muscle will keep regulary visiting for more than just a few months. Such an establishment would be viable in the long run in big cities, but only as a niche. And if I were refused at an establishment because I'm too thin I wouldn't go back once they dropped their weight requirements.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Your bread has corn syrup in it, your meat is fed with corn grain, chances are your meat is trucked cross country from one of the four big packers. Anything to keep it cheap I suppose

I'd like to point out that this is a really an exclusively American problem, at least with Corn Syrup.

The stuff barely exists outside the US, and we certainly don't put it or any other form of sugar in bread.

Ergo, a good start would be to ban Corn Syrup as a bulking addative, or just ban it outright so it's replaced with cain or beat sugar. Given that it's corn you're not exactly onto a winner refinning it as a sweetner to begin with.

[HoreTore]

There arent a plethora of gyms in most places as there are coffee shops. In my area there is only one gym within a seven mile radius.

What kind of a place do you live in?

My city has a population of roughly 50k, plus another 30k or so around it. On the top of my head, I count 8 gyms, and I'm sure there's a few I've forgotten. About the same number of places who sell coffee at 6 in the morning actually...

Anyway. Just like a gym for fat people will appear when there is a demand for it, so will a gym for other people appear when there is a demand for it.

Has the US right suddenly lost all faith in the free market...?

And does your post mean that free markets should only be present in metropolitan areas, while the rest of the country should have a planned economy?

[Papewaio]

As I've said before you don't choose to be sick or poor. You do have to choose to be healthy and/or wealthy.

Being of a certain ethnic group or wealth status is something a child cannot control.

Being healthy a adult is down to adult choices. Any normal adult in the first world can exercise, any normal adult in the first world can educate themselves about nutrition. Being fit is a gift you give to yourself.

=][=
Now before you go it's the system or if you're poor you don't have choices. Then explain to me how come so many elite athletes come from poor areas. How the poor in non first world countries are starving and how come ones grandparents generations this wasn't an issue.

Yes we have bigger portions, fructose and syrup and less exercise. But a functional adult has a choice and has to take responsibility for these choices. Smaller portion sizes for starters will both save money for healthier food and save waistline.

If you can afford to be on the internet you can afford a rice cooker. Eat brown rice and you save yourself a fortune and are again more healthy.

Etc

Whilst someone has a tv and watches talk shows then their fat arse is their reponsibility. Drop half a show a day and jog on the spot.

Weights can be expensive. Squats, lunges and pushups come for free.

[HoreTore]

I'd like to point out that this is a really an exclusively American problem, at least with Corn Syrup.

The stuff barely exists outside the US, and we certainly don't put it or any other form of sugar in bread.

Ergo, a good start would be to ban Corn Syrup as a bulking addative, or just ban it outright so it's replaced with cain or beat sugar. Given that it's corn you're not exactly onto a winner refinning it as a sweetner to begin with.

The specifics are a US thingy, but the problem appears here too. Our products contain palm oil instead of corn syrup. Usually cleverly disguised on the label as "vegetable oil".

[HoreTore]

and how come ones grandparents generations this wasn't an issue.

While I agree with a lot of yiur post, this one is as much due to a change in standards. What was called "healthy and attractive" in the 50's is the "chubby" of today. Look at Marylin Monroe, she'd be a fat celebrity in 2012.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The specifics are a US thingy, but the problem appears here too. Our products contain palm oil instead of corn syrup. Usually cleverly disguised on the label as "vegetable oil".

Yes, but it's not quite as bad and not in everything.

They put it is bread, bread is just flower yeast and water!

How the Frak do you add to that?

[Kralizec]

As I've said before you don't choose to be sick or poor. You do have to choose to be healthy and/or wealthy.

Being of a certain ethnic group or wealth status is something a child cannot control.

Being healthy a adult is down to adult choices. Any normal adult in the first world can exercise, any normal adult in the first world can educate themselves about nutrition. Being fit is a gift you give to yourself.

=][=
Now before you go it's the system or if you're poor you don't have choices. Then explain to me how come so many elite athletes come from poor areas. How the poor in non first world countries are starving and how come ones grandparents generations this wasn't an issue.

Yes we have bigger portions, fructose and syrup and less exercise. But a functional adult has a choice and has to take responsibility for these choices. Smaller portion sizes for starters will both save money for healthier food and save waistline.

If you can afford to be on the internet you can afford a rice cooker. Eat brown rice and you save yourself a fortune and are again more healthy.

Etc

Whilst someone has a tv and watches talk shows then their fat arse is their reponsibility. Drop half a show a day and jog on the spot.

Weights can be expensive. Squats, lunges and pushups come for free.

Other people have mentioned bread; it's generally accepted that brown bread (that is, whole wheat) is healthier than white bread. Some Dutch businesses have tried to capitalise on this general knowledge by marketing especially brown bread. Of course they were artificially coloured.

Or another thing: microwave meals. They might contain all the nutrients you need, but they're also laced with salt so that they don't taste like crap.

I'm currently not in a relationship so I have to take care of my own meals. If I include travel time I'm away for 10-12 hours each day just for work. I do usually prepare my own meals with vegetables and whatnot but it's not surprising that many will not in the same situation.

Wether you have a healthy diet is not just a matter of willpower, but also a matter of knowledge, time and what's available in the store.

[HoreTore]

Yes, but it's not quite as bad and not in everything.

They put it is bread, bread is just flower yeast and water!

How the Frak do you add to that?

The ingredient list for most breads are quite long, actually. And plenty of them, particularly the cheaper ones, do contain palm oil.

Just checked my own bread, and it contains rapeseed oil fortunately.

And just about everything that's pre-made(requiring heating) contains it.

[Papewaio]

So to be healthy requires knowledge, time management and disposable income.

I wonder if being fit then would make one look more attractive whilst being unfit would make one less attractive...

[HoreTore]

Some Dutch businesses have tried to capitalise on this general knowledge by marketing especially brown bread. Of course they were artificially coloured.

This is very true. I rarely eat any bread these days(they always turned green before I finished them...), but when I do buy one, it's a pain trying to find the healthy one. Especially when I buy one at a place far from home, where I'm not familiar with the bakeries.

[Greyblades]

It doesnt help that it is physically impossible to become healthy from overweight without feeling pain from the efforts and that results take years to achieve.

[Papewaio]

End goal may take years. But wih commitment 3 months to see results.

[Moros]

While I agree with a lot of yiur post, this one is as much due to a change in standards. What was called "healthy and attractive" in the 50's is the "chubby" of today. Look at Marylin Monroe, she'd be a fat celebrity in 2012.

Recent studies have shown that this actually not true. Females these days have increased significantly when it comes to belly sizes. Though it is not just that they grown fatter, but also that the fat now seems to be more concentrated in this area. But it's a dangerous situation due to the proximity of vital organs and other more health risks can't remember the details though.

Personally I think overweight issues can in most cases be frowned upon and seen as a vice, if smokers need to get bashed so do most fat people. Of course rare diseases are not accountant. Some people might be poor and thus in a less advantageous situation, the same is true for people with the 'bad' gene(s). But make it somewhat more difficult really, isn't an excuse. Some people are more prone to addiction, should they be treated else than other smokers? Some people have a more aggressive personality, which can be the result of genes, the environment/nurture and personal situations... But should they be treated else? Sure again when they are sick or ill you could, just when a disease or medication could make it impossible to be thin. Some kids have a smaller attention span then others, should they not be punished when disrupting class?

Of course a little belly or a bit of fat can't hurt, but those who can't go up the stairs without sweating all over and almost faint, those generally are to blaim themselves. We shouldn't feed those people only more false excuses. Now people can chose not to exercise and eat a lot/unhealthy/unbalanced/..., just like people should be allowed to smoke,... But it shouldn't be treated any different than the previous given examples ( both by me and others).

[HoreTore]

Please, do compare this swimsuit picture of Marylin (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_qoJr7kKgahs/TDgvvn1ypmI/AAAAAAAAAKk/IJA_VAZTUYI/s400/Marilyn-Monroe-swimsuit-104.jpg) with 2012 standards. You could fit one victoria secrets model in each bun....

As for vices and such, I am personally of the opinion that people should stop being so bothered with how other people live their lives. And yes, I am aware of the irony of me being bothered by other people being bothered...

Btw, where your fat ends up on your body depends on the levels of estrogen and testosterone. The more testosterone you have, the more fat will end up on your belly, while the more estrogen you have, the more will end up on your thighs. So your study seems to point to increased levels of testosterone in the female population...

[Centurion1]

Women are actually more overweight now......

Womens sizes have increased dramatically. What I mean by that is a womens size 3 now was like a womens size 0 then (not sure actual change just illustrating my point for clarity). So no on that count Horetore.

Also you have to be pretty damn fat to need years of work to look acceptable to society. No one is arguing we all need to look like chiseled adonis' just not elicit feelings of disgust and pity from everyone when you walk by.

I would argue Greyblades the acceptance and increased energy you receive from being more fit outweighs the work needed to achieve such a level. As well as the mental joy at being more attractive and healthier as opposed to being denigrated by your peers.

[Montmorency]

people should stop being so bothered with how other people live their lives.

And you call yourself a collectivist?

[Centurion1]

Please, do compare this swimsuit picture of Marylin (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_qoJr7kKgahs/TDgvvn1ypmI/AAAAAAAAAKk/IJA_VAZTUYI/s400/Marilyn-Monroe-swimsuit-104.jpg) with 2012 standards. You could fit one victoria secrets model in each bun....

As for vices and such, I am personally of the opinion that people should stop being so bothered with how other people live their lives. And yes, I am aware of the irony of me being bothered by other people being bothered...

Oh shut up with Marilyn Monroe everyone shows that exact same freaking picture.

This is marilyn monroe
http://popcurious.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/MM-B.jpg?9d7bd4

And she looks damn sexy seeing as how she isnt airbrushed and digitally altered like the 2012 models you reference. Also in the above post i blew up your post in regards to women being smaller now.


As for vices and such, I am personally of the opinion that people should stop being so bothered with how other people live their lives. And yes, I am aware of the irony of me being bothered by other people being bothered...

It is our concern since I guess I'm paying for their healthcare now.

[HoreTore]

And you call yourself a collectivist?

I call myself many things, a lot of them contradicting each other ~;)

Though I can't seem to remember calling myself a collectivist...

[Moros]

[QUOTE=HoreTore;2053462337]Please, do compare this swimsuit picture of Marylin (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_qoJr7kKgahs/TDgvvn1ypmI/AAAAAAAAAKk/IJA_VAZTUYI/s400/Marilyn-Monroe-swimsuit-104.jpg) with 2012 standards. You could fit one victoria secrets model in each bun..../QUOTE]
Yeah and since when was our 'standard', our ideal, corresponding with the majority or even a large proportion of the female population? Sure there some more on the way too skinny side of the graph, but in actuality body sizes, fat percentages, whatever, has polarised. But the "fat" side has grown significantly more than the other.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Every time Strike talks, my mind opens up to the world a bit more. And every time I cry because he is brushed away by those who put a finger to their mouth and scream, "SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"

To me what Strike's argument is at its core, is an argument about incentives. We can talk about the willpower of individuals to "play by the book" in wall street or Congress, but we all laugh at the joke. Cheap calories for lower income families is a bigger incentive for obesity than fortifying Crisco with essential vitamins.

[Strike For The South]

And yet you didn't thank one post

[a completely inoffensive name]

And yet you didn't thank one post

I was young and brazen.