When Can We Start Breaking Things?

[Strike For The South]

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/revolt-of-the-rich/



We meet in the midst of a nation brought to the verge of moral, political, and material ruin. Corruption dominates the ballot-box, the Legislatures, the Congress, and touches even the ermine of the bench. The people are demoralized. … The newspapers are largely subsidized or muzzled, public opinion silenced, business prostrated, homes covered with mortgages, labor impoverished, and the land concentrating in the hands of capitalists. The urban workmen are denied the right to organize for self-protection, imported pauperized labor beats down their wages. … The fruits of the toil of millions are boldly stolen to build up colossal fortunes for a few, unprecedented in the history of mankind, and the possessors of these, in turn, despise the Republic and endanger liberty. From the same prolific womb of governmental injustice we breed the two great classes—tramps and millionaires.



The back of the middle class grows weaker and weaker. I hope the job creators are able to continue using us a stepping stone until they can safely make it to the Bahamas. The rot gut of inequality, which has been the bane of human civilization is rearing its ugly head again. A long and steady uptick of equality and enfranchisement is slowly backsliding into lives that are nasty brutish and short.

Fear is the name of the game today, neighbors are pitted against each other over sexual fetishes while the robber barons make off with 16 trillion dollars. Smokescreens and black noise cloud the fact that we are falling deeper and deeper under the joint yoke of the rich and the government

The saddest part is there is no smoke filled room. It is merley a disconnect between them and us

[a completely inoffensive name]

Is this worse than the Gilded Age? Don't we always have the opportunity to recreate the French Revolution?

[tibilicus]

Capitalism has always had a vulgar side but since the 1980s its reared its head more frequently. No, I'm not a socialist. I used to vote Conservative before I realised the whole thing was a sham. I will not however be an apologist for guys who make obscene amounts by using the people bellow them with no regard for their livelihoods or economic sustainability. I expect an incoming of vulture capitalists to defend such men so to you I ask, why do you defend those who openly mock you? Why are you working your ass off for a depressingly average existence when the CEO of Barclays can break the law and face no punishment.

Something has got to give if the world is going to work. I despise the state of affairs as they stand. My generation will be burdened with the debts and selfishness of the masses who were duped by the few into thinking they had "never had it so good."

[Fragony]

So what if some have so much more. Good for them. I can get by and can still do fun things I don't need that much more, I am satisfied with that.

[a completely inoffensive name]

So what if some have so much more. Good for them. I can get by and can still do fun things I don't need that much more, I am satisfied with that.

I don't think you got the point. Those at the top seem to treat money as a zero sum game and want to walk away holding all of it. You are in the middle class and less people are living your life everyday. Will you say the same when you get kicked out as well?

[tibilicus]

So what if some have so much more. Good for them. I can get by and can still do fun things I don't need that much more, I am satisfied with that.

You may be comfortable for now. But good for them? You know the same bank which would love to take your house also probably laundered money for Iran (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2188371/Standard-Chartered-agrees-217million-settlement-Iran-allegations.html) or rigged the entire system (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/aug/23/rbs-libor-barclays-mp?newsfeed=true). You know, that same system we all need to get by? Riddle me this. What do you think would happen to me if I laundered money for an indvidual from a country my country had an embargo against. Would I be sat here now typing this?

I'm glad you're happy with your place in the grand scheme of things. That happiness will stop you really thinking about the guys who cannot fail. They know they can do what they want and act how they want. They truly are above our laws and care nothing for the common sense of humanity. For them its all a game and money is a key component. They've turned our lives into a literal version of Hasbro's Monopoly and its so perverse and disgusting yet well just accept it. IF we get by on a middle income job that seems like our crowning glory before we sink into the see of mediocrity like everyone else. Any hopes of youth we once had replaced with the ideal model of taking it on the chin and getting by. I hope there's more than this. If this is it then whats the point of it all?

[Papewaio]

You can freely break that which you can repair.

You can do away with something if by doing so improves the situation.

If your system is broken, then fix it. Don't wait for equality or health or wealth to be given. Don't play their game. Define your game and what the stage of life is to you.

Decide what is happiness to you. You need to pursue it with zest and determination. Do as you please, please as you do.

Your choices, your purpose, your life.

[Fragony]

I don't think you got the point. Those at the top seem to treat money as a zero sum game and want to walk away holding all of it. You are in the middle class and less people are living your life everyday. Will you say the same when you get kicked out as well?

Economy just isn't doing very fine right now, but I don't mind it that some people are filhy rich, they are not the cause of he problem. People find it unfair that they get tax-cuts but Inthink it's unfair there isn't a cap on the amount of money that can be taxed

[a completely inoffensive name]

Economy just isn't doing very fine right now, but I don't mind it that some people are filhy rich, they are not the cause of he problem. People find it unfair that they get tax-cuts but Inthink it's unfair there isn't a cap on the amount of money that can be taxed

Except they did cause the problem. Rich people looking to sell their bundled up whatevers get other rich people to commit fraud by labeling them as AAA++++ would buy again. Housing meltdown triggering a cascade of other meltdowns as the bubble bursts. Meanwhile the average citizen who never majored in finance doesn't know how to play the stock market and doesn't realize why his bank would give him a loan if he wasn't good for it. All because it's better for the bottom line to have long term debt slavery then for responsible people to get their money, pay it off and be on their way.

[tibilicus]

Economy just isn't doing very fine right now, but I don't mind it that some people are filhy rich, they are not the cause of he problem. People find it unfair that they get tax-cuts but Inthink it's unfair there isn't a cap on the amount of money that can be taxed

They are the exact cause of the problem. They speculate, they gamble and when it all comes crashing down, we foot the bill. Coffee is a naturally produced substance and it has been for millions of years. One day we decided we needed guys to decide how much it's worth though. Guys who could speculate on its wealth and tell us if it was worth more or less. They usually did so for their own gain and if their little game put the price down thus destroying the lives of the suppliers, they didn't care. They were too busy in the City drinking champagne and cheating on their wives who would still adore them like the gods of Mammon we've made them out to be.

As for taxes, it isn't them being taxed too much, its the fact they don't pay tax. This money (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jul/21/global-elite-tax-offshore-economy) could have sorted out the budget deficits for this year of numerous nations. The USA only had a deficit of $1.2 trillion whilst the rich hoarded 12 trillion (http://www.washingtonguardian.com/budget-buster) like Smaug the dragon. They expect our stupid consumer society to pay for them. We work jobs we hate so we can buy rubbish we don't need. We give them money and they give us nothing back. They just continue to speculate on our lives. The ultimate aim of any good city boy is to make a heap of money. Not for us but for himself. It is irrelevant how he makes this money. He can lie, cheat, sell his soul, make a pact with the devil and even kill. It doesn't matter. All that matters is he makes money. We are his thralls and we rely on his benevolence as only he can guide our lives to betterment through his economic insights. We sold our souls to morons and they plan to make or lives a misery till we cant give them any more money. Then they'll discard us like their strip club receipts.

[Fragony]

Except they did cause the problem. Rich people looking to sell their bundled up whatevers get other rich people to commit fraud by labeling them as AAA++++ would buy again. Housing meltdown triggering a cascade of other meltdowns as the bubble bursts. Meanwhile the average citizen who never majored in finance doesn't know how to play the stock market and doesn't realize why his bank would give him a loan if he wasn't good for it. All because it's better for the bottom line to have long term debt slavery then for responsible people to get their money, pay it off and be on their way.

Your government is kinds guilty of that, they enforced programs in risky area's, read up on the 'community reinforcement act'. It looked good untill the housing market suddenly collapsed and the banks were stuck with loans they would otherwise never have given. We have a similar bubble here, people live in houses that rised in value fast, and they used that fictional money. When prices will drop they are in trouble because they spend the additional value that was given. Glad I never fell for that I have just payed my debt.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Your government is kinds guilty of that, they enforced programs in risky area's, read up on the 'community reinforcement act'. It looked good untill the housing market suddenly collapsed and the banks were stuck with loans they would otherwise never have given. We have a similar bubble here, people live in houses that rised in value fast, and they used that fictional money. When prices will drop they are in trouble because they spend the additional value that was given. Glad I never fell for that I have just payed my debt.

Yeah our government, which is filled with.....rich people. Guess what percentage of the US Senate is made of millionaires.

[Fragony]

They are the exact cause of the problem. They speculate, they gamble and when it all comes crashing down, we foot the bill. Coffee is a naturally produced substance and it has been for millions of years. One day we decided we needed guys to decide how much it's worth though. Guys who could speculate on its wealth and tell us if it was worth more or less. They usually did so for their own gain and if their little game put the price down thus destroying the lives of the suppliers, they didn't care. They were too busy in the City drinking champagne and cheating on their wives who would still adore them like the gods of Mammon we've made them out to be.

As for taxes, it isn't them being taxed too much, its the fact they don't pay tax. This money (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jul/21/global-elite-tax-offshore-economy) could have sorted out the budget deficits for this year of numerous nations. The USA only had a deficit of $1.2 trillion whilst the rich hoarded 12 trillion (http://www.washingtonguardian.com/budget-buster) like Smaug the dragon. They expect our stupid consumer society to pay for them. We work jobs we hate so we can buy rubbish we don't need. We give them money and they give us nothing back. They just continue to speculate on our lives. The ultimate aim of any good city boy is to make a heap of money. Not for us but for himself. It is irrelevant how he makes this money. He can lie, cheat, sell his soul, make a pact with the devil and even kill. It doesn't matter. All that matters is he makes money. We are his thralls and we rely on his benevolence as only he can guide our lives to betterment through his economic insights. We sold our souls to morons and they plan to make or lives a misery till we cant give them any more money. Then they'll discard us like their strip club receipts.

But you do get something back, you have a job there and you get payed for it. I find the notion that their money really belongs to the community becausev hey happen to have more of it rediculous. Aren't we suppsed to have a quid pro quo situation with the state, how does paying a tenfold or thousandfold then others make sense.

[a completely inoffensive name]

But you do get something back, you have a job there and you get payed for it. I find the notion that their money really belongs to the community becausev hey happen to have less of it rediculous. Aren't we suppsed to have a quid pro quo situation with the state, how does paying a tenfold or thousandfold then others make sense.

Every job doesn't stem from wall street. People have harvested coffee, refined coffee, sold coffee and bought coffee long before there was a wall street.

[Fragony]

Every job doesn't stem from wall street. People have harvested coffee, refined coffee, sold coffee and bought coffee long before there was a wall street.

They still do, we call it the 'real economy' here, what people actually buy and move. I am not all that worried about that undercurrent ever failing.

[a completely inoffensive name]

They still do, we call it the 'real economy' here, what people actually buy and move. I am not all that worried about that undercurrent ever failing.

But it is failing, right now. Because people's savings are lost by speculators.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

But it is failing, right now. Because people's savings are lost by speculators.

This is possibly your most perceptive point ever.

[a completely inoffensive name]

This is possibly your most perceptive point ever.

Thank you. Hopefully I will make more like it in the future.

[Strike For The South]

You can freely break that which you can repair.

You can do away with something if by doing so improves the situation.

If your system is broken, then fix it. Don't wait for equality or health or wealth to be given. Don't play their game. Define your game and what the stage of life is to you.

Decide what is happiness to you. You need to pursue it with zest and determination. Do as you please, please as you do.

Your choices, your purpose, your life.

This is nothing but empty rhetoric. We are forced into the game, and the carrot we are given is a middle class exsistance, only attainable by the few the system hasn't absolutely destroyed. Just stupid enough to consume while a select few make off like bandits.

They have us chasing a dream of suburbia that is just plausible enough to make us keep our heads down, just stupid enough to shut up and consume.

I do not want to fix the system, I am not some pre pubescent girl trying to find happiness. This is not some meta-crisis brought on by lack of self esteem. I do not need dime store lines about how I shape my destiny.

I want to bring the Sodom down on its head.

[Noncommunist]

This is nothing but empty rhetoric. We are forced into the game, and the carrot we are given is a middle class exsistance, only attainable by the few the system hasn't absolutely destroyed. Just stupid enough to consume while a select few make off like bandits.

They have us chasing a dream of suburbia that is just plausible enough to make us keep our heads down, just stupid enough to shut up and consume.

I do not want to fix the system, I am not some pre pubescent girl trying to find happiness. This is not some meta-crisis brought on by lack of self esteem. I do not need dime store lines about how I shape my destiny.

I want to bring the Sodom down on its head.

Call in fire from heaven and anyone who turns around turns into a pillar of salt?

[Montmorency]

Well, by international standards even the poorest in the West are middle-class.

I think we can look forward to a middle-class lifestyle for quite a while, depending on how middle-class the rest of the world gets.

:mellow:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Thank you. Hopefully I will make more like it in the future.

I should quit while you're ahead - but then I didn't, I'm pretty sure I've entered a terminal decline where the things I say become ever more strident, outlandish and unreasonable.

But maybe not, so I keep posting.

[Montmorency]

What does each make of the resurgence of old-school Calvinism (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2010/0327/Christian-faith-Calvinism-is-back) in the American South, in the context of these several threads?

[Strike For The South]

What does each make of the resurgence of old-school Calvinism (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2010/0327/Christian-faith-Calvinism-is-back) in the American South, in the context of these several threads?

It's not surprising. When the economy is good and you're the hyper-power, Joel Osteen squares with your world view. When everything goes tits up, it's comforting knowing you had no control.

I have always felt American protestants eschew traditional charity championed by the vicar of Rome (in theory) in favor of this bastardization of the just world theory.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What does each make of the resurgence of old-school Calvinism (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2010/0327/Christian-faith-Calvinism-is-back) in the American South, in the context of these several threads?

As a Wesleyan I dislike Calvin intensely, I think John Hooker had the right of it and I refuse to countenance Calvin's doctrine of preordained damnation.

HOWEVER, the rest is most welcome provided the theology is taught properly AND pre-Reformation theologians like Augustine are taught also, along with men like Luther, Tynedale, Wyclif, Crammer...

What is not acceptable is to teach "Christianity according to Calvin" any more than to teach Roman orthodoxy.

[naut]

Don't worry Strike, we're only one major food shortage away from global crisis!


So what if some have so much more. Good for them. I can get by and can still do fun things I don't need that much more, I am satisfied with that.
Like the family dog? Content with table scraps and the occasional pat?

[PanzerJaeger]

Economic equality is a fallacy and the pursuit of such a notion is and will always be a disastrous folly.

[Lemur]

Economic equality is a fallacy and the pursuit of such a notion is and will always be a disastrous folly.
Can you imagine any level of inequality that would be dangerous for social cohesion? Or is that impossible?

[Strike For The South]

Civil equality is a fallacy and the pursuit of such a notion is and will always be a disastrous folly.

See how vapid this statement is?

Hell, I am not even speaking about equality

[naut]

Economic equality is a fallacy and the pursuit of such a notion is and will always be a disastrous folly.
I do believe you've missed the point to hide behind this red herring.

Monetary "equality" is not the issue Strike has raised. Monetary "extraction" is the problem at hand. Where:


[J]ob creators are able to continue using us a stepping stone until they can safely make it to the Bahamas.

All elements of American society lose out. Regardless of social stature. When all the money is taken out of the system and hidden under rocks floating in ocean it is no wonder that there is less money for society, individuals, companies and governments to put to use to undertake projects and purchase for their needs. Can we agree that money represents value, of time, of skills, of physical resources. When the money is extracted and not reflected by something of value in the physical world, the value of all else is corroded.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Economic equality is a fallacy and the pursuit of such a notion is and will always be a disastrous folly.

No one is arguing for your definition of economic equality. Everyone not satisfied with the demographics of wealth are arguing for individuals to have the ability to work hard, get payed and live a middle class lifestyle. The current system does not allow this because the current system is deliberately predatory, which is why the masses ignorant in economics and finance have seen their houses foreclosed on and their savings pissed away by wall street.

Inequality in the sense that those who are clearly not born bankers are pitted against the bankers is what people want to change. No one is a communist here.

What if we had a world where we forced the WNBA to play against the NBA and then claimed that any notion to separate the two is a silly attempt at egalitarianism to be dismissed.

[PanzerJaeger]

Can you imagine any level of inequality that would be dangerous for social cohesion? Or is that impossible?

Certainly. The underclass will always envy what the creative class has built. History has shown that the higher the level of perceived economic inequality, the greater the level of social disharmony. This thread is a perfect example. People are railing against Wall Street and unnamed 'speculators' without taking any personal responsibility for their own economic conditions. It is easier to play victim than acknowledge poor choices. Wall Street is powerful in the country because the underclasses willfully hand over their money to the speculators. Everyone was perfectly happy entrusting their financial future to the street until they weren't.

None of that means that I must accept the premise that you and I are inherently equal in our ability to create value or that we should, in fact, enjoy rough economic parity. The differences in our intelligence, work ethic, upbringing and several dozen other individual factors determine our relative success.


See how vapid this statement is?

Yes, because you changed the sentence. I chose my words very carefully.

[PanzerJaeger]

. Everyone not satisfied with the demographics of wealth are arguing for individuals to have the ability to work hard, get payed and live a middle class lifestyle.

And there it is... That is not how the economy works.

[Strike For The South]

The creative class? Is that some kind of insane joke?

What is so creative about volleying securities and bundled annuities back and forth so everyone gets a nice piece of the pie?

This is not business, it's extortion.

If we are not going to have a modicum of a social safety net, why play by these rules at all? . Being a citizen means you have certain obligations to the state. these are not being met.

[Lemur]

Certainly. The underclass will always envy what the creative class has built.
Okay, Ms. Rand, and can you imagine any negative outcomes from the "envy" of he "underclasses" for the ubermenschen who are superior to them in every way? Can you express any possible mechanisms for preventing social breakdown?

I worked closely with investment bankers in NYC for eight years. If you think those coked-up whoremongers are the "creative class," you are operating on a different plane of reality. I don't think the add a tenth of the economic value that they claim. And I am not, by any stretch, one of the untermenschen you disdain so airily.

[Montmorency]

Policies that permit continuously increasing economic inequality are business-unfriendly. Some correction is necessary for a stable society.

[Strike For The South]

All elements of American society lose out. Regardless of social stature. When all the money is taken out of the system and hidden under rocks floating in ocean it is no wonder that there is less money for society, individuals, companies and governments to put to use to undertake projects and purchase for their needs. Can we agree that money represents value, of time, of skills, of physical resources. When the money is extracted and not reflected by something of value in the physical world, the value of all else is corroded.

The near entirety of the financial system makes profit on money no one will ever really see

[a completely inoffensive name]

Certainly. The underclass will always envy what the creative class has built.
To me the creative class are the painters, musicians and writers. But to each his own I guess.



History has shown that the higher the level of perceived economic inequality, the greater the level of social disharmony. This thread is a perfect example. People are railing against Wall Street and unnamed 'speculators' without taking any personal responsibility for their own economic conditions. It is easier to play victim than acknowledge poor choices. Wall Street is powerful in the country because the underclasses willfully hand over their money to the speculators. Everyone was perfectly happy entrusting their financial future to the street until they weren't.

None of that means that I must accept the premise that you and I are inherently equal in our ability to create value or that we should, in fact, enjoy rough economic parity. The differences in our intelligence, work ethic, upbringing and several dozen other individual factors determine our relative success.


We don't live in a world where everyone is:

A: On the same level in terms of education
B: On the same level in terms of intelligence

How can you be a coal worker in West Virginia for 8-10 hours a day and find time to a better money manipulator than those whose job it is to do just that, backed with four years of training and knowledge? It is insanity to ask for people to be an expert in anything besides what their job entails.

Of course people make poor choices. This is why we have professional politicians instead of a direct democracy. There can never be a society of enlightened individuals who all make it work out for themselves because see points A and B above. What needs to happen is to make sure that the public is protected from it's own ignorance to prevent a total capsize of the economy. It's not even about harmony and equality here, it's about social stability, which is what others here are stressing. We all saw what happens when you let banks give loans to any schmuck who walks in the door, the public enslaves itself with debt, whether it be student or credit card or what have you.

[HopAlongBunny]

...They truly are above our laws and care nothing for the common sense of humanity.

For me this is the crux of the matter. Who was charged for the crime of the century? Not that having a scapegoat or two would have actually fixed anything, but at least one might have felt the system wasn't totally broken.

[naut]

This thread is a perfect example. People are railing against Wall Street and unnamed 'speculators' without taking any personal responsibility for their own economic conditions.
As a 22 year old who had never paid tax or voted or earned a real pay-check until after the the GFC what choices have I made? What franchises, of money or of votes, have I had at my disposal to make or influence the current situation what it is? The only choice I have made is that I was too busy being a child physically and intellectually to have any impact on the poop-storm the last generation decided I should have to live through.

[Strike For The South]

The entire system us set up to be divisive.

The guy making 250k really is not that much different than the guy making 40k. Sure the former may have a nicer house, car, and various trinkets but those are really just like kneepads to make this whole thing go down a tad easier.

[Fragony]

Like the family dog? Content with table scraps and the occasional pat?

They can keep their scraps and pats, I don't mind inequality. I don't think it's unfair that they can buy a 50 million yaght and I can't.

[Major Robert Dump]

Until our government leadership adopts rules akin to insider trading laws, none of this will ever begin to change. It benefits our leaders and the financial sector for the rest of us to be in financial and social rough waters. It aslo benefits the government machine.

All this money given in the bailouts and we really have nothing to show. Instead of letting the businesses fail, a vacuum form and another business rise to meet the demand ... greased palms handed over trillions to the inept business men and women who could not run their own house to begin with, all under the guise of "saving jobs" and "maintaining sector stability."

To me, social issues take a far back burner to issues like the one mentioned above. This is how you unravel the framework of a nation. The mere existence and financial windfall of the Lobby Industry I think speaks volumes of what we are up against.

This is why I am cashing out, removing every penny I have from the US market, and investing (and eventually moving) to another nation. I'm not going to play this game of pretend capitalism anymore, I will go somewhere where the game is self evident, whatever it may be. I just feel like I cannot compete here anymore, for multiple reasons to include abuse by the financial sector, but also including various social and political realities.

**edit: And no, I am not rich nor does my family enjoy anything above a middle working class lifestyle, I am not like the people in the article.

[tibilicus]

Certainly. The underclass will always envy what the creative class has built. History has shown that the higher the level of perceived economic inequality, the greater the level of social disharmony. This thread is a perfect example. People are railing against Wall Street and unnamed 'speculators' without taking any personal responsibility for their own economic conditions. It is easier to play victim than acknowledge poor choices. Wall Street is powerful in the country because the underclasses willfully hand over their money to the speculators. Everyone was perfectly happy entrusting their financial future to the street until they weren't.

None of that means that I must accept the premise that you and I are inherently equal in our ability to create value or that we should, in fact, enjoy rough economic parity. The differences in our intelligence, work ethic, upbringing and several dozen other individual factors determine our relative success.



Yes, because you changed the sentence. I chose my words very carefully.

Everything you just said is rubbish. Own failings? Why is youth unemployment so high in my country then? We had a generational believing we all needed degrees and a high standard of education and we did, for the most part, as we were told. There's no jobs for us though. As in literally none exist. Tell me why no one will give us jobs. I've worked months on end for companies for free all so I could add "job experience". There still isn't a job for me. I was encouraged to go back and do some more work for free. You know someone of my skill working at my last unpaid job at a company would have saved the company something like £5000 for that period? We're all stupid enough to do it though because we'd happily stab our brethren in the back and push them under the tracks for a chance to have a job.

You equate the broken system with jealousy. I really hope you wake up one day to having no future like the mass majority of young people I know. I hope you look out onto the world and see every door closed because the guy who got the job knew someone who worked there. That you too post applications for jobs you're too qualified for only to be told yup, you are too qualified we'd much prefer the guy who will stick with us and be happy to take our crap for the rest of his life. And finally that everything you were told since the age of 15 about how the world works and how the best way to better yourself was all one big lie. It remains it isn't what you know but who you know. A generation of our most talented young people continue to go to waste because of nepotism. This said nepotism I feel is an integral part of the broken world we live in.

You cannot perceived these things though can you? Why, because you're part of the selfish generation. Your one of the guys that left all this mess for my generation to clear up. You were happy for governments to spend, the rich to get richer and for taxes to remain low whilst everything around you slowly but surely fell apart. Then when you got the chance, your "deficit cutting programs" and "debt reduction schemes" were to be paid off by guess who? That's right, people my age. You simultaneously took advantage of big government spending, low taxes, get quick rich schemes and, even a big welfare state. Now you vote to takeaway the same things for my generation. It's like you all had one big party and ran up a huge bar tab then on your way out left the receipt for the quiet guy minding his own business at the end of the bar to pay.

You embody this nature in the tone of your above post. And for that, I ask you this. Has a single generation in modern history ever been as selfish as yours? You systematically expected certain things and fed the corporate pig and now you vote to take away the few perks it gave us in favor of more government full of rich kids and more power to the guys who shoveled most of this misery on us in the first place. You say I'm envious but you seem to grasp I just despise being in a hopeless situation whereas the guys who caused all this continue to drink champagne to my misfortune.

[Papewaio]

Economies go up and down all the time. The key is to pursue what makes you happy.

I can remember in the 90s unemploment rates of 10% for the general workforce and about double that for young people.

I was working in gold exploration in '99/2000 when 90% of the explorers in WA were laid off. Then I went into web design / IT support for a small stock broker... 6 weeks later the NASDAQ crashed.

Moved to Sydney and 2 years at a contact centre vendor. They made record support income, USA regional sales crashed. So they got rid of South East Asian support including Sydney.

I'm a contractor because I'm a mercenary. I'm a mercenary because I know business only sees numbers and that I'm just one of them. So I might as well get as much as possible and be able to leave and go somewhere else.

I also keep my costs down. My stipend is $60 a week. My place a 2 bedroom villa of 90sqm, an hour commute to work on public transport (bonus of getting a train trip across the Harbour bridge), buy my shoes on specials, eat wheat bix for breakfast, buy 90% of my games months after release etc etc

So stop whining and either fix the system or find another game to play.

[Sarmatian]

And there it is... That is not how the economy works.

But that's how life works.

You push middle and lower class far enough and you get ugly things.

[gaelic cowboy]

They still do, we call it the 'real economy' here, what people actually buy and move. I am not all that worried about that undercurrent ever failing.

That's not been true for a long while now 80% of Dutch workforce is employed in the service sector and apparently 70% of your countries GDP is generated by same.



Economic equality is a fallacy and the pursuit of such a notion is and will always be a disastrous folly.

Apparently inequality breeds nothing but :daisy: who cry to the government when there stock exchange lotto ticket doesn't pan out.

Apparently MORE inequality is needed because spending money on health and education was what caused bankers to lose the run of themselves.


Policies that permit continuously increasing economic inequality are business-unfriendly. Some correction is necessary for a stable society.

Exactly the Wall Street morons can make there profits because in Europe and the USA contracts are protected by law and people abide by them and use the to resolve disputes.

Lets see how well they do trying to leverage mortgage backed securities in Somalia before we call them the creative classes.


To me the creative class are the painters, musicians and writers. But to each his own I guess.

Indeed

[gaelic cowboy]

Okay, Ms. Rand, and can you imagine any negative outcomes from the "envy" of he "underclasses" for the ubermenschen who are superior to them in every way? Can you express any possible mechanisms for preventing social breakdown?

I worked closely with investment bankers in NYC for eight years. If you think those coked-up whoremongers are the "creative class," you are operating on a different plane of reality. I don't think the add a tenth of the economic value that they claim. And I am not, by any stretch, one of the untermenschen you disdain so airily.

I can imagine two things that PJ posts about in the plus column which are actually hurt by his lauding of extreme economic darwinism.

1: Gay Americans

Gays are getting it in the neck because of the toxic alliance of religion and politicians who are of course in the pocket of Wall Street. This religious drum banging targets education and science and my belief is that it's to achieve reformation of the same, this reformation is not really about education but about allowing more rent seeking by Wall Street.

In return for tossing a few middle eastern cultural baubles to the priests the Wall street clergy control education so they can better shape the future consumer.

2: The American millitary

The armed forces get it on multiple fronts in terms of cuts to services both during and after people have served, apparently veterans are heroes right up until the moment there tossed on the scrap heap. This degradation is exacerbated naturally by rent seekers in the form of Haliburton and XE, these leeches couldn't and wouldn't exist without billions of public money.

Rent seeking in the military means more wars to acquire resources for wall Street and this will lead to more terrorism on Americans.





Basically we have a few million of leeches worldwide unthinkingly spreading an environment conducive to them. What really scares me is that it's not a conspiracy at all at all but merely millions of self interested actions.

The only force these people really fear is government or man on the street springing to mass action, so i'm guessing they feel pretty safe cos they have captured both religion and politics which is enough to quieten the man on the street. (generally)

[SoFarSoGood]

Hold up... I am not a millionaire or anything but I bought cereal and rice futures a couple of years ago. Why? Because it encourages more people to make more food and as the population is rising food is bound to get more expensive. I didn't know there was going to be bad Russian and American harvests and sure I am now looking at a handy profit thanks. Have I done wrong? Is it wrong to make a profit?

[gaelic cowboy]

Hold up... I am not a millionaire or anything but I bought cereal and rice futures a couple of years ago. Why? Because it encourages more people to make more food and as the population is rising food is bound to get more expensive. I didn't know there was going to be bad Russian and American harvests and sure I am now looking at a handy profit thanks. Have I done wrong? Is it wrong to make a profit?

Eh agri futures are not about encouraging the growth of food in the slightest if they did so then they would rapidly become worthless.

All resource futures be they mineral, agricultural or financial are about protection from any massive price swings or reductions in there availability.



Do you remember that big to do a few years ago on how bio-diesel was supposedly stealing food from peoples mouths, well that was a load of cobblers there was plenty food the problem was the price of it.

A large proportion of that food price inflation was driven by huge speculation in all sorts of resources as to it's future price. (it was felt it would be more tomorrow naturally)

[SoFarSoGood]

Hold on if prices go up then farmers get more and more people think "hey that's profitable" so start growing food. I am not talking about bio fuels.

[gaelic cowboy]

Hold on if prices go up then farmers get more and more people think "hey that's profitable" so start growing food. I am not talking about bio fuels.

Not true in the slightest for farming and even less true for the resource sector as a whole.

Farming is generally a low return high initial investment activity generally people are trying to maximise long term potential. This doesn't sit well with banks so farmers often have problems with obtaining investment and with paying it back in lean years, it literally takes years if not a lifetime to properly maximise the potential of your land and animals.

Basically no one invests in farming because a loaf of bread went up ten cent, far more likely people will invest in the price of the loaf of bread.

[SoFarSoGood]

Thank God people like you don't advise 'evil capitalists' like me who actually keep the world going.

[gaelic cowboy]

Thank God people like you don't advise 'evil capitalists' like me who actually keep the world going.

People who haven't about clue about the relationship between price and value and how the same is influenced by inputs and outputs will continue to feather Wall Streets nest eggs.

Futures contracts don't encourage investment in production it it is not there purpose to do so.

A futures contract is to protect an initial investment position from swings in the price of said resource.

[Vladimir]

People who haven't about clue about the relationship between price and value and how the same is influenced by inputs and outputs will continue to feather Wall Streets nest eggs.

Futures contracts don't encourage investment in production it it is not there purpose to do so.

A futures contract is to protect an initial investment position from swings in the price of said resource.

Agreed. Still, it's wonderful to get into. The problem comes when people start manipulating goods to generate contrived shortages, etc. No harm in normal futures investing.

[gaelic cowboy]

Agreed. Still, it's wonderful to get into. The problem comes when people start manipulating goods to generate contrived shortages, etc. No harm in normal futures investing.

Indeed there is absolutely nothing wrong with futures investment at all at all, the problem as you said yourself is IF people have enough control over the resource to continually make sure there favoured long or short price comes up.

Enron is a fairly good example of a company doing something like this.

[SoFarSoGood]

Did I ever say I agreed with price manipulation? The current rise in grain and food futures is not about manipulation of market but about droughts.

[drone]

This quote has been tossed around for a while, not sure who actually put it out there first:

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury.

Over the past 30 or so years, the financial sector has abandoned it's traditional role (facilitating business investment) and done it's best to extract money from the lower and middle classes. When the bubble burst and disposable income dried up, it has moved to raiding saved wealth in the form of retirement accounts and property, and ultimately the collective savings account of the people. The above quote has been proven false, a small minority now has the keys to the Treasury. We payed them voluntarily, then indirectly, and now at the point of a gun.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Can you imagine any level of inequality that would be dangerous for social cohesion? Or is that impossible?

He's deflecting - he's taking Strike's complaint about extreme inequality of opportunity and making it about inequality of outcome.


Certainly. The underclass will always envy what the creative class has built. History has shown that the higher the level of perceived economic inequality, the greater the level of social disharmony. This thread is a perfect example. People are railing against Wall Street and unnamed 'speculators' without taking any personal responsibility for their own economic conditions. It is easier to play victim than acknowledge poor choices. Wall Street is powerful in the country because the underclasses willfully hand over their money to the speculators. Everyone was perfectly happy entrusting their financial future to the street until they weren't.

None of that means that I must accept the premise that you and I are inherently equal in our ability to create value or that we should, in fact, enjoy rough economic parity. The differences in our intelligence, work ethic, upbringing and several dozen other individual factors determine our relative success.

Yes, because you changed the sentence. I chose my words very carefully.

Wall Street are not "the creative class" they are merchants, merchants buy and sell goods made by others and take a cut of the profits. You employ a merchant to sell your goods because you calculate that even after he takes his cut you will still be better off than if you had tried to sell yourself. Wall Street traders belong to the same economic class as Record Producers.

The true "creative class" are engineers, software developers, inventors, and also artists and artisans - these are the people who create salable products - the middle class. Below them you have the working class, manual labourers, lumberjacks, miners, farmers, and also people like truck drivers and merchant sailors, and also the manual elements of the service sector who wait tables and get you your coffee.

The current problem stems from the overblown % cut the merchants are taking from the producers, and just keeping and not even spending.

[gaelic cowboy]

Did I ever say I agreed with price manipulation? The current rise in grain and food futures is not about manipulation of market but about droughts.


I'm not accusing you of it either instead I am merely trying to explain to you that futures contracts are for hedging the price you pay in the future.

Basically there not about encouraging an increase in capacity but are however used to ensure an agreed price tomorrow.

[SoFarSoGood]

Sorry but your idea of the futures market seems different from my reality. You seem to suggest that you can never lose on futures market... I am just lucky and haven't, but you most certainly can lose if you buy too high and the price drops - same as any normal market. I am NOT an in - out 'trader' but in for the long term; numbers of people keep going up and so more food needs producing or it rises in price (almost certainly both will be true).

I have done some shorting, particularly on the Spanish bond market, and did pretty well out of that ty too but does that me bad or the Euro mismanaged? I am not the one putting people out of work all over southern europe or raising the price of food in Europe via the 'Common Agricultural Policy'. If they are mismanaging your money don't elect them... Oh yea you can't because those fools were never elected in the first place.

[Major Robert Dump]

Actually, our politicians and the financial elite are quite creative:

They manage to steal money that never existed, which has to be repaid with real money by the people who never stole the nonexistent money, with the thieves pretending to have not stolen the nonexistent money or to have stolen it by accident. In essence, they are magicians and actors.

[Vladimir]

Actually, our politicians and the financial elite are quite creative:

They manage to steal money that never existed, which has to be repaid with real money by the people who never stole the nonexistent money, with the thieves pretending to have not stolen the nonexistent money or to have stolen it by accident. In essence, they are magicians and actors.

No such thing as "real money" All wealth is subjective, currency is a symbol, and you can't eat gold.

[Major Robert Dump]

I eat gold every day

[Vladimir]

I eat gold every day

Does this have anything to do with the gold hoes thread on the Minecraft forums?

[gaelic cowboy]

Sorry but your idea of the futures market seems different from my reality. You seem to suggest that you can never lose on futures market... I am just lucky and haven't, but you most certainly can lose if you buy too high and the price drops - same as any normal market. I am NOT an in - out 'trader' but in for the long term; numbers of people keep going up and so more food needs producing or it rises in price (almost certainly both will be true).

I have done some shorting, particularly on the Spanish bond market, and did pretty well out of that ty too but does that me bad or the Euro mismanaged? I am not the one putting people out of work all over southern europe or raising the price of food in Europe via the 'Common Agricultural Policy'. If they are mismanaging your money don't elect them... Oh yea you can't because those fools were never elected in the first place.

I never made such a any claim on security of investment actually, futures contracts are essentially an insurance policy so of course you can lose.

Lets go back to the start ok, because you seem to be labouring under an illusion as to what were talking about here.


Hold up... I am not a millionaire or anything but I bought cereal and rice futures a couple of years ago. Why? Because it encourages more people to make more food and as the population is rising food is bound to get more expensive. I didn't know there was going to be bad Russian and American harvests and sure I am now looking at a handy profit thanks. Have I done wrong? Is it wrong to make a profit?

Basically the part in bold is not a reason to buy or sell a futures contract, however if you believe prices may go up or down by all means buy or sell away.

[SoFarSoGood]

My dear fellow I advise you NOT to invest on the stock market.

[gaelic cowboy]

My dear fellow I advise you NOT to invest on the stock market.

:laugh4: clearly you dont understand futures contracts at all.


A contractual agreement, generally made on the trading floor of a futures exchange, to buy or sell a particular commodity or financial instrument at a pre-determined price in the future. Futures contracts detail the quality and quantity of the underlying asset; they are standardized to facilitate trading on a futures exchange. Some futures contracts may call for physical delivery of the asset, while others are settled in cash.

Read more: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/futurescontract.asp#ixzz24ygISuD5

It all about price and only about price whereas you claimed a benefit it doesn't actually give which was an increase in capacity.

Basically I would be 99% confident that I deal with futures more than you, seeing as between the two of us I am the only person selling cattle.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I thought Ireland was too small to support cattle.

[gaelic cowboy]

I thought Ireland was too small to support cattle.

Cattle were basically a form of currency in Ireland for centuries, even up to the middle of the 20th century people used them in dowries.

[SoFarSoGood]

:laugh4: clearly you dont understand futures contracts at all.

I know enough to make some money out of it. You sell cattle is hardly futures market...

[gaelic cowboy]

I know enough to make some money out of it. You sell cattle is hardly futures market...

You were wrong and it really is as simple as that.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I know enough to make some money out of it. You sell cattle is hardly futures market...

You don't even know what futures are, then.

Which proves the whole point, really - you are selling and buying things you don't understand.

[Major Robert Dump]

When the going gets tough, the best bet is to go old school, and start selling cheap food and quality hoes. When I move to Guam, that is what I will be doing to get rich, and I will name my bar either "The Org" or "Cheap Food and Quality Hoes." Hope you guys can swing by

[a completely inoffensive name]

When the going gets tough, the best bet is to go old school, and start selling cheap food and quality hoes. When I move to Guam, that is what I will be doing to get rich, and I will name my bar either "The Org" or "Cheap Food and Quality Hoes." Hope you guys can swing by

Won't Guam capsize if you try to put another building on it?

[Major Robert Dump]

Won't Guam capsize if you try to put another building on it?

Yes, which is why my establishment will be on a riverboat

[Major Robert Dump]

You all will cease your laughter in 6 months when Cheap Food and Quality Hoes opens for business

[SoFarSoGood]

You were wrong and it really is as simple as that.

Look you strange animal the futures market is a 'market' like anything else (the clue's in the name). Like any other market the prices rise and fall on supply and demand. It is not there to "ensure an agreed price tomorrow" as otherwise I could buy at any price I wished and the sole purpose of the 'market' would be to 'ensure' I got the price I agreed; it would NOT be a market but a price fixing mechanism and losses would be impossible; supply wouldn't matter a jot.

Whatever your strange ideas of 'evil capitalists' a 'market' cannot "ensure an agreed price tomorrow".

[Major Robert Dump]

Look you strange animal the futures market is a 'market' like anything else (the clue's in the name). Like any other market the prices rise and fall on supply and demand. It is not there to "ensure an agreed price tomorrow" as otherwise I could buy at any price I wished and the sole purpose of the 'market' would be to 'ensure' I got the price I agreed; it would NOT be a market but a price fixing mechanism and losses would be impossible; supply wouldn't matter a jot.

Whatever your strange ideas of 'evil capitalists' a 'market' cannot "ensure an agreed price tomorrow".

You can always have an agreed price on hoes

[gaelic cowboy]

Look you strange animal the futures market is a 'market' like anything else (the clue's in the name). Like any other market the prices rise and fall on supply and demand. It is not there to "ensure an agreed price tomorrow" as otherwise I could buy at any price I wished and the sole purpose of the 'market' would be to 'ensure' I got the price I agreed; it would NOT be a market but a price fixing mechanism and losses would be impossible; supply wouldn't matter a jot.

Whatever your strange ideas of 'evil capitalists' a 'market' cannot "ensure an agreed price tomorrow".

In simple terms that we can all understand basically.

I the farmer take the short position and you the buyer take the long position, you agree to pay me say 4 euro a kilo for my animals in six months time.

If by the time I deliver the price has gone to 6 euro a kilo then you sell on the open market and trouser a profit of 2 euro, however if by the time I deliver it has gone down to 3 euro then you end up paying me 1 euro over the market rate so you will have lost money.

Basically I'm trying to cover my costs for delivery with maybe some profit on top, while your hoping beef goes way way up so you can pocket a significant profit.

The reason why you cannot just make up a figure is because the margin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futures_contract#Margin) payments will break you if your priced wrong.
It's also the reason why say a grain farmer might only sell say half his tonnage to a futures trader, he's hoping the price will go up but he is hedging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedge_(finance)#Agricultural_commodity_price_hedging) his costs too.

Seán Quinn Anglo-Irish Bank investment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Se%C3%A1n_Quinn#Anglo-Irish_Bank_investment)

Now this was a CFD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contracts_for_difference) but it's essentially the same idea for stocks an shares and it shows how you can lose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contracts_for_difference#Risks).

[gaelic cowboy]

You all will cease your laughter in 6 months when Cheap Food and Quality Hoes opens for business

Steak dinners and beef injections a brilliant combination.


You can always have an agreed price on hoes

:laugh4:

[Papewaio]

Look you strange animal the futures market is a 'market' like anything else (the clue's in the name). Like any other market the prices rise and fall on supply and demand. It is not there to "ensure an agreed price tomorrow" as otherwise I could buy at any price I wished and the sole purpose of the 'market' would be to 'ensure' I got the price I agreed; it would NOT be a market but a price fixing mechanism and losses would be impossible; supply wouldn't matter a jot.

Whatever your strange ideas of 'evil capitalists' a 'market' cannot "ensure an agreed price tomorrow".

Now consider that futures started out in agriculture, I'd listen to the farmer.

The very definition of a futures market is to agree to a future price. It is to smooth out supply and demand peaks and plummets causing massive price spikes and valleys. The idea is to make it more predicatable and hence less risky to all. Of course reducing risk does generally reduce profit margins.

But then again the futures market is really more a long term idea.

"A futures exchange or futures market is a central financial exchange where people can trade standardized futures contracts; that is, a contract to buy specific quantities of a commodity or financial instrument at a specified price with delivery set at a specified time in the future" - Wikipedia

[PanzerJaeger]

LOL @ the 'system' conspiracists. Tell the former executives of Bear Stearns or the Madoff victims that the system is rigged in their favor. Wealthy people can be just as poorly positioned and over exposed as your average idiot facing foreclosure who paid too much for a house based on an income stream with little real security. The reality is that there is no system, no grand conspiracy to extract wealth from the working man. As has already been said, more consumers and more disposable income in the economy benefit wealthy people disproportionately.

No one is entitled to a ‘middle class lifestyle’. Hard work does not equal valuable work. The truth is that you are only as valuable as the value you create. (Value = the amount of money other people will exchange for your labor.)

Everyone is exposed to cyclical economic shifts. That’s just the nature of capitalism. However, if you are still unemployed this many years after the crash or have yet to be able to find a job after graduating, some introspection may be in order. Yes, it could be that old white men in monocles and top hats are conspiring to screw you out of your right to clock in 9 – 5 and earn a ‘decent wage’, or it may be that that philosophy degree was a poor choice.

The problem gripping our economies is not speculation on Wall Street. That was just a symptom. The real problem is that machines are continuing their eclipse of human labor apace. It started in the factories many decades ago, but now it has crept into every realm of the economy. What used to take a department of people collecting and organizing numbers to create can now be done in Excel with a couple of macros. Today, real value is derived from creative, analytical brainpower, and the sad truth is that the average working man has never had an original idea in his life. :shrug:

[a completely inoffensive name]

No one is entitled to a ‘middle class lifestyle’. Hard work does not equal valuable work. The truth is that you are only as valuable as the value you create. (Value = the amount of money other people will exchange for your labor.)
Oh my bad, I thought humans have an intrinsic value. I was under the impression that, you know, we have rights and such because we value human life in itself.

I guess you are right though, if you can't provide anything to the state of "worth" than why should we tolerate you living in our society? Or at all for that matter?


and the sad truth is that the average working man has never had an original idea in his life. :shrug:

Such a brave statement.

[Montmorency]

I guess you are right though, if you can't provide anything to the state of "worth" than why should we tolerate you living in our society? Or at all for that matter?


When it becomes easier for the state to eliminate you than to permit you to live in this case, it is something to keep in mind.


LOL @ the 'system' conspiracists.

As I recall, several posters specifically lamented that "it's not even a conspiracy."


The problem gripping our economies is not speculation on Wall Street. That was just a symptom. The real problem is that machines are continuing their eclipse of human labor apace.


Mechanization and computerization are the primary causes of an out-sized global financial market? How do you mean that? Is it that computerization allowed financiers to exponentially increase the number of transactions while presenting the data flood to feed them? Or something more subtle? If the former, well, it seems to imply that the only appropriate solution to problems arising from the financial market is the unacceptable one of primitivism and Neo-Luddism. That would be one mendacious red herring.

[SoFarSoGood]

"A futures exchange or futures market is a central financial exchange where people can trade standardized futures contracts; that is, a contract to buy specific quantities of a commodity or financial instrument at a specified price with delivery set at a specified time in the future" - Wikipedia

Ergo if the demand for that future price goes up the price goes up. If I have agreed to pay $X per ton of wheat at Y date and the price goes up... the producer gets more.

[Papewaio]

What?

If I sell a 1000kg of corn as a future at $100 in 3 months. When 3 months comes along I the producer will get $100. Even if the new market price is $50, $200 or a million dollars a ton. I've locked in how much by selling on the future.

What is effected is the next cycle of investment.

[Major Robert Dump]

I actually share a lot of the sentiments of PJ in relation to people expecting something by virtue of merely existing, the lazy feeling entitled, etc etc, although I think he takes it a little too far and is somewhat one sided, almost as if he does not believe there is any one ever who would intentionally sacrifice the financial well being of others for their own personal gain, particularly in the face of knowing our psuedo capitalist government will simply prop them up

And this is my dilemma. How do you fix something with out opening the flood gates of another form of abuse and fraud?. Where is the threshold for such things? In the name of expediencey and disaster relief and racial harmony, was it worth the 1 billion on fraudulant FEMA cards passed out to people who had no ID and gave fake social security numbers? On the other side of the coin, when GM is pressed by the UAW to commit to a pension/retirement policy for its employees that is virtually unsustainable (to the point that retirees were costing more than actual employees) and then the company goes tits up, was it worth it? Exclude the bailout, pretend it never happened and GM went broke and closed down. Was it worth it? Did everyone know all along they would get a bailout so who gives a flying fudge, and if so, why do we think that every company everywhere can offer similar benefits without being propped up? In short, how do you close the floodgate without opening another, how do you punish the bad people without punishing everyone??

Incidentally, I find it highly amusing that the "entitlement mentality" displayed by America's poor and downtrodden, as well as the entitlement mentality displayed by America's corporations, is really just an offshoot of "american exceptionalism", which happens to be another mindset that annoys me.

[Major Robert Dump]

Here is an example of bad copy editing: Almost half of Americans Die Broke.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/half-of-americans-die-with-almost-no-money-2012-08-29

That is the headline. Then it goes on to discredit itself in its own article.

Half of Americans retirees die with less than 10k in savings. It doesn't say 10k in assets, it says SAVINGS. 10k in savings is actually not too bad if you happen to have your assets paid off, which by retirement age you should. 10k in savings isn't bad considering you probably get social security, you are probably eligible for medicare, you my get disability, you may have a pension, you may have investments and you most likely have assets of some sort or another.

If by retirement you are still a renter, you have no credit lines, you have no assets, then yeah, you are probably in trouble and your problems probably go way, way back due to your obvious lack of preperation.

I would dare say that old people are not the ones in trouble right now.

[Ironside]

No one is entitled to a ‘middle class lifestyle’. Hard work does not equal valuable work. The truth is that you are only as valuable as the value you create. (Value = the amount of money other people will exchange for your labor.)

Unions forward! Or did you just think that it's the employers who should influence this?


The problem gripping our economies is not speculation on Wall Street. That was just a symptom. The real problem is that machines are continuing their eclipse of human labor apace. It started in the factories many decades ago, but now it has crept into every realm of the economy. What used to take a department of people collecting and organizing numbers to create can now be done in Excel with a couple of macros. Today, real value is derived from creative, analytical brainpower, and the sad truth is that the average working man has never had an original idea in his life. :shrug:

And your solution is having a large unemployed unhappy underclass? Add some unhappy intellectuals. Pinning for the second communist revolution are you? Or haven't you considered exactly how explosive such a situation is?

Actually, it started with improved agriculture. It's just that there's no other market beyond the service sector.



Mechanization and computerization are the primary causes of an out-sized global financial market? How do you mean that? Is it that computerization allowed financiers to exponentially increase the number of transactions while presenting the data flood to feed them? Or something more subtle? If the former, well, it seems to imply that the only appropriate solution to problems arising from the financial market is the unacceptable one of primitivism and Neo-Luddism. That would be one mendacious red herring.

In general, I would expect more speculations (attempts to create money out of nothing) on top of a relativly shrinking amound of physical products (or clear services). That would create a more unstable market with more crashes. The next one will come before 2020, possibly a few years later due to the severety of the latest one (I doubt that though. The stock markets have mostly recovered).

Of course, there's a lot of other factors involved, but the crashes are fairly predicatable sadly enough.

[Sarmatian]

You guys are forgetting one basic truth -

When an individual goes bust, a bank comes and takes his house, with full backing from the state's legal apparatus.

When a bank (or some other big business) goes bust, the state comes and takes money from individuals and gives it to them to keep them afloat, with the full backing from the state's legal apparatus.


Is it possible that I'm the only one noticing something's wrong here?

[SoFarSoGood]

What?

If I sell a 1000kg of corn as a future at $100 in 3 months. When 3 months comes along I the producer will get $100. Even if the new market price is $50, $200 or a million dollars a ton. I've locked in how much by selling on the future.

What is effected is the next cycle of investment.

More corn! Why? Because it pays more.

[Major Robert Dump]

You guys are forgetting one basic truth -

When an individual goes bust, a bank comes and takes his house, with full backing from the state's legal apparatus.

When a bank (or some other big business) goes bust, the state comes and takes money from individuals and gives it to them to keep them afloat, with the full backing from the state's legal apparatus.


Is it possible that I'm the only one noticing something's wrong here?

There is nothing wrong, because banks are the true creative class and without them we would be nothing. They should be afforded more broad allowances than the average Joe, and we cannot allow them to fail under any circumstances EVER because then who would I steal pens from, huh?

[gaelic cowboy]

DELETE

[gaelic cowboy]

More corn! Why? Because it pays more.

The futures price doesn't drive the market price it's the actually the market price that drives the futures price.

If grain goes mad dear this year then people will react accordingly with a futures prices that protects them against it going any higher.

[SoFarSoGood]

The futures price doesn't drive the market price it's the actually the market price that drives the futures price.

If grain goes mad dear this year then people will react accordingly with a futures prices that protects them against it going any higher.

What you say is partly true - prices are rising as there is/has been a drought in the US but the reverse is also true, the futures prices (just like normal shares or Government bonds) rise and fall on the amount of the demand from investors.

[Vladimir]

You guys are forgetting one basic truth -

When an individual goes bust, a bank comes and takes his house, with full backing from the state's legal apparatus.

When a bank (or some other big business) goes bust, the state comes and takes money from individuals and gives it to them to keep them afloat, with the full backing from the state's legal apparatus.


Is it possible that I'm the only one noticing something's wrong here?

Yes, you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Deposit_Insurance_Corporation

Also, if the collapse is big enough to threaten the well being of the state, the state will take measures to protect itself.

[gaelic cowboy]

What you say is partly true - prices are rising as there is/has been a drought in the US but the reverse is also true, the futures prices (just like normal shares or Government bonds) rise and fall on the amount of the demand from investors.

Indeed but this demand has an upper and lower level bound by the market price of the resource.

basically there is a point beyond which it makes no sense to hedge anymore, this can be driven because the potential price of the resource will eat your future profit.

That will generally mean you will try to price below tomorrows price(assuming market price growth) and will probably have to offer something above todays price.

However not everyone prices for profit sometime it's for access, for example a brewery needs barley so they offer a high price to encourage planting for a stable supply of quality barley. (although usually it's a straight contract for delivery at a set price)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Its funny...

You have these free market values, which work well in your ideal vacuum. The peril to your vacuum is apparently automated labor.

If instead you valued basic freedoms and a relatively good standard of living for all, then automated labor would be pretty good. Who wouldn't want to live in a utopian society where all our needs are provided for by robots, and leisure becomes the most important persuit?


Oh my bad, I thought humans have an intrinsic value. I was under the impression that, you know, we have rights and such because we value human life in itself.

I guess you are right though, if you can't provide anything to the state of "worth" than why should we tolerate you living in our society? Or at all for that matter?



Such a brave statement.

PJ is speaking economically - his point is that if your Labour does not have economic value you cannot participate in the economy. For example, what is a ditch digger to do in a world full of mechanical diggers? He's out of work and on the dole.


Ergo if the demand for that future price goes up the price goes up. If I have agreed to pay $X per ton of wheat at Y date and the price goes up... the producer gets more.

No, he gets the same and you get a bigger profit margin.


Indeed but this demand has an upper and lower level bound by the market price of the resource.

basically there is a point beyond which it makes no sense to hedge anymore, this can be driven because the potential price of the resource will eat your future profit.

That will generally mean you will try to price below tomorrows price(assuming market price growth) and will probably have to offer something above todays price.

However not everyone prices for profit sometime it's for access, for example a brewery needs barley so they offer a high price to encourage planting for a stable supply of quality barley. (although usually it's a straight contract for delivery at a set price)

I don't think he really gets it.

SFSG - the Futures Market is a Market for contracts. The price going up and down on the market is not the price the farmer gets, it is the price the traders pay eachother to hold that contract until delivery. The trick of the Futures market is to buy a Future which was set at a middling price when everyone thinks that price has overshot, traders sell the Future at a loss and as a result you make a bigger profit than the person who originally held the Future when the price rises again.

[Sarmatian]

Yes, you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Deposit_Insurance_Corporation

Long article. Me lazy. Explain in few sentences.


Also, if the collapse is big enough to threaten the well being of the state, the state will take measures to protect itself.

Did you just turn communist on me here?

[Idaho]

Americans realising that once capitalism has chewed and swallowed everyone else, it will come for them.

And the Fragony, righter than the righter, feels comfortable because of the employment protection and social programmes of left-leaning Netherlands :laugh4:

I love it guys.

[Vladimir]

Long article. Me lazy. Explain in few sentences.


Did you just turn communist on me here?

Small bank fail, people get money back.

Large bank fall down go boom, make economy sad, state pick bank back up.

[Sarmatian]

Small bank fail, people get money back.

Large bank fall down go boom, make economy sad, state pick bank back up.

State covers savings up to a certain point, me get that, me knows that.

Does it cover home sweet home or only personal savings?

[Vladimir]

State covers savings up to a certain point, me get that, me knows that.

Does it cover home sweet home or only personal savings?

That's an excellent question and fortunately I don't have any experience with that.

What I know for sure is that "too big to fail" should not exist as it is a national security risk. But, if it does, it must not fail.

Edit: Why are we back to the bail out? So confused.

[Sarmatian]

That's an excellent question and fortunately I don't have any experience with that.

What I know for sure is that "too big to fail" should not exist as it is a national security risk. But, if it does, it must not fail.

Edit: Why are we back to the bail out? So confused.

Most states guarantee for personal savings up to a certain point, depending usually on the strength of the economy. Even in Serbia the state guarantees for personal savings up to measly 5000 euros.

Real estates and investments are not covered usually - which means that if you as individual make a bad investment, you lose everything, usually to the big business. If big business makes a bad investment it gets bailed out with your money.

I mentioned that as a response to PJ's "lower and middle class have only themselves to blame for why they aren't the upper class". It's not that simple and quite frankly, it shows that the system is biased.

[Vladimir]

I mentioned that as a response to PJ's "lower and middle class have only themselves to blame for why they aren't the upper class". It's not that simple and quite frankly, it shows that the system is biased.

Well, he's not entirely wrong. It is quite easy to become rich in this country; however, the pursuit of wealth may become an end in itself at the expense of everything else. It's all about choices.

[Idaho]

What a surprise. A society based on accumulating wealth ends up being a society that favours a self serving wealthy clique and disregarding those whose motives do not stem from avarice.

[Major Robert Dump]

Avarice? She is a great musician and the voice of our generation, but I am not sure what she has to do with the conversation

[Idaho]

She's going to bring about a new America through a series of cutting edge MTV stings.

[Vladimir]

What a surprise. A society based on accumulating wealth ends up being a society that favours a self serving wealthy clique and disregarding those whose motives do not stem from avarice.

Yes, and a society based on buggery and poor dental hygiene can rule the seas.

[Major Robert Dump]

Yes, and a society based on buggery and poor dental hygiene can rule the seas.

Pakistan does not really have so great a navy, bra

[SoFarSoGood]

I am certainly not in favour of 'cliques'/'large businesses interests' or semi- monopolies, whichever you chose to call the global business companies and hedge funds and all the rest. Any feeding an monopoly is NOT good for the market: The banks should have been allowed to go the wall after Lehmans and there should be no such thing as 'too big to go broke'. Real people and real growth is NOT 'corporate' but small businesses that put food on the average table. But all small businesses today are potential giants tomorrow who may be public companies and listed.

Ok stock holders at the initial launch pay the premium that carries the company forward for more investment etc (fb investors at the start) but if you and lots of others buy the shares the company value goes up. In the end this results in them have a greater total value and they can invest more.

It's no different essentially with futures on grain and rice. Long term the producers profit from a high price.

[Vladimir]

Pakistan does not really have so great a navy, bra

You say that but I'll laugh when Strike has to wear a hijab.

[Tellos Athenaios]

You say that but I'll laugh when Strike has to wear a hijab.

It'll be immensely funny, until you realise they're after you next. Your avatar will need to change: the outfit will have to go, you will down your last dikke pint, kiss your last ferme griet goodbye and finally have to settle for dried flowers...

[Papewaio]

Strike to take the green? I've heard rumours...

[Strike For The South]

Strike to take the green? I've heard rumours...

OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG

NO BACKSIES