House votes to continue NSA spying on citizens

[Fisherking]

In a 205-217 vote, lawmakers rejected an effort to restrict the National Security Agency's (NSA) ability to collect electronic information.

The NSA's chief had lobbied strongly against the proposed measure.

The vote saw an unusual coalition of conservatives and liberal Democrats join forces against the programme.

Obama spoke out to kill the amendment. Meantime you here about royal baby and other pap.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23445231

Who voted how: http://techcrunch.com/2013/07/24/a-list-of-congressmen-who-voted-for-against-the-amendment-to-stop-nsa-spying/

Skipping the vote was as bad as voting against it! 12 of those.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I think this is good news actually. The story has not gotten much traction lately due to garbage like the royal baby. If libertarian and liberal organizations banded together to push for this again and brought it back to the spotlight, there is a good chance it can get passed. It's rare for a bill of this nature to pass the first time around.

[Fisherking]

The amendment didn’t stop the NSA collecting any data, they just had to show cause before it could be asked for and targeted individuals.

So it was not exactly crippling the war on terror.

Those voting against or skipping the vote don’t give a damn about the laws or rights of individuals.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The amendment didn’t stop the NSA collecting any data, they just had to show cause before it could be asked for and targeted individuals.

So it was not exactly crippling the war on terror.

Those voting against or skipping the vote don’t give a damn about the laws or rights of individuals.

It just means they fell in line this time. As I said FIsherking ,these type of laws don't usually pass on the first try. There has been no big push from the public towards this bill, and yet it still almost passed. If a coalition can be made fast and lobby hard, it can be done. Calling the nays a bunch of names and calling it a dead bill/amendment only serves to hurt us.

[Fisherking]

I provided a link to the vote for a reason. You can at least see how your rep voted. Pressuring them to change their minds, or just reinforce their positions is your right.

I have seen some people spin this as a party issue blaming Republicans.

Obama wanted it to fail and said so. You can see that the party leadership of both parties was on the side to defeat the amendment. People making it partisan just are not looking.

The Parties are not your friends, no matter which side you have chosen.

[Fisherking]

Mine, a Democrat voted No, just like the Administration and the party asked him to.

Gutless Weasel! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Kilmer

At least he’s not a lawyer.

[a completely inoffensive name]

My hometown's (where I am still registered) representative voted Nay.

But I am not surprised, my hometown literally rests under the shadow of Reagan's body. It's a Republican Mecca and it doesn't matter how corrupt or incapable the Republican candidate is, he wins.

[Fisherking]

It won’t come up again either. Not unless it is a full bill.

The Defense bill passed shortly after the vote on the amendment failed.

This was not a party issue, it was a party line issue, and the party line won over the people. Both parties opposed the amendment and I think anyone who stood up to them should be thanked.

[Lemur]

You can at least see how your rep voted. Pressuring them to change their minds, or just reinforce their positions is your right.
My rep (Paul Ryan, R) voted against it, no surprise there. I've contacted him many times, I suppose I will again. Not like he listens, however. His district (and mine) is safely gerrymandered, and he's something of an authoritarian.

Congress, eh? Whatcha gonna do (http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/07/congress-sets-new-record-being-hated/67531/)?

A new NBC News/Wall Street Journal polls finds that in addition to setting new milestones for futility, Congress is also more hated than it's ever been. A full 83 percent of respondents say they disapprove of the job Congress is doing, the highest number for that question since the poll began tracking the number.

[Xiahou]

Congress, eh? Whatcha gonna do (http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/07/congress-sets-new-record-being-hated/67531/)?Repeal the 17th Amendment and prohibit listing a candidate's party identification on the ballot. That's where I'd start. :yes:

[Fisherking]

So, on the day the vote failed, we get a report of this:

Feds tell Web firms to turn over user account passwords


http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57595529-38/feds-tell-web-firms-to-turn-over-user-account-passwords/

[Husar]

Passwords? That seems a bit redundant considering they wanted the SSL Master Keys so they can decrypt all communication to and from websites.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/355146

Of course passwords might be more useful in case they already have a suspect.

It's also funny because our minister of the interior said early on that we should just encrypt our communication if we don't like it. Now it turns out the NSA was whining about people encrypting their communication for a while because then they can't access it but they really should.

[Fisherking]

Encrypted communications are a priority for the NSA, in the US or elsewhere. They made a claim a few weeks back that there was only one instance when they could not decrypt them, and they were whining about that one, but I suspect that was misinformation, and it was broken too.

The have keys for most of that software too.

[Husar]

I'm not sure they have them, wouldn't make much sense to ask for them in that case.

Either way I thought about the issue and just wanted to throw out an idea:

How about the information continues to be collected but it not accessible by secret agencies. Instead, the agencies have to gain information through an ethics commission that consists of experts from all relevant fields, such as technology, law and ethics/philosophy which are elected by the scientific community. We already have similar commissions in medical fields and while they're not perfect, they seem to provide a relatively (considering there will always be humans involved) good way to balance interests and provide a relatively unbiased approach to subjects. And they would be elected by a community that attempts to be objective and does not favor either extreme of the available options.

I'm not saying it's going to or should happen, but what do you think about such an approach?

[Fisherking]

Their oversight by judges is phony. They look only at the laws with permit them to spy (patriot act and Defense bill, while not considering the Constitution. That is no protection at all.

The idea of a regulatory panel is sound, it is just likely that it will be co-opted.

Anything done in secret is likely to turn out the same and the government wishes to keep it all secret.

[Fisherking]

Lawmakers Who Upheld NSA Phone Spying Received Double the Defense Industry Cash

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/07/money-nsa-vote/

follow the money, remember money is only speech, the only speech that get action, it would seem.

[Fisherking]

Remarkably unremarkably this story was not picked up by TV news of any viewpoint.

Just a few bloggers picking up on the original Wired story.

Just Party politics as usual and if both do it, it must be ok.

I see the silence as acceptance of the corruption and this is just vote selling.

No one here seems to care either.

[TheLastDays]

I was actually going to say something about the fact that the announcement of the UK getting "opt out porn filters" instead of "opt in" caused a much bigger uproar (at least on this forum) than this story... It's sad but then again I'm not sure what to say about this. I'm not American and I've always had a hard time understanding the politics of your country.

[Tuuvi]

No one here seems to care either.

I think we're just too used to corruption. My first thought when I saw your post was "that's not surprising".

[Strike For The South]

No one here seems to care either.

Get off the cross honey, jesus needs it

[Fisherking]

Unfortunately, you are right, it is not at all surprising.

However, it is corrupt. And it would be a huge scandal if it were clearly one party or the other.

In stead we are faced with a stone wall of silence! I have not found a single example of network coverage.

This is the clearest example we have had in a very long time of those willing to cast votes for the people or those completely co-opted by the Political- Military- Industrial Complex. The Constitution and individual rights vs. the Patriot Act and the Security State. And who is reporting it? Wired Magazine and a few bloggers.

So much for a free press. Just a bunch of party mouthpieces supporting the corrupt establishment.

Silence is acceptance. Silence condones the corruption. Not speaking out is silent agreement.

If you can’t be bothered, then why get upset with Gun Lobbies, Church Lobbies, or any other? Why get upset with race and justice?

Why bother with politics at all?

[HopAlongBunny]

It's interesting.
Today on CNN I saw an Oregon Senator fielding questions.
More interesting than what he had to say, was the fact he had been active working against the abuses of the NSA for quite some time.
So why has it never surfaced until now?

[HopAlongBunny]

Ah, "voice in the wilderness" sort. Explains the lack of media attention.
So I guess it is another reason to thank Snowden for pushing the issue public.
You'd think that the media would have been all over this "if only they knew"; which they apparently did.

[Beskar]

XKeyscore: NSA tool collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet' (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data)


A top secret National Security Agency program allows analysts to search with no prior authorization through vast databases containing emails, online chats and the browsing histories of millions of individuals, according to documents provided by whistleblower Edward Snowden.

The NSA boasts in training materials that the program, called XKeyscore, is its "widest-reaching" system for developing intelligence from the internet.

The latest revelations will add to the intense public and congressional debate around the extent of NSA surveillance programs. They come as senior intelligence officials testify to the Senate judiciary committee on Wednesday, releasing classified documents in response to the Guardian's earlier stories on bulk collection of phone records and Fisa surveillance court oversight.

The files shed light on one of Snowden's most controversial statements, made in his first video interview published by the Guardian on June 10.

"I, sitting at my desk," said Snowden, could "wiretap anyone, from you or your accountant, to a federal judge or even the president, if I had a personal email".

US officials vehemently denied this specific claim. Mike Rogers, the Republican chairman of the House intelligence committee, said of Snowden's assertion: "He's lying. It's impossible for him to do what he was saying he could do."

But training materials for XKeyscore detail how analysts can use it and other systems to mine enormous agency databases by filling in a simple on-screen form giving only a broad justification for the search. The request is not reviewed by a court or any NSA personnel before it is processed.

XKeyscore, the documents boast, is the NSA's "widest reaching" system developing intelligence from computer networks – what the agency calls Digital Network Intelligence (DNI). One presentation claims the program covers "nearly everything a typical user does on the internet", including the content of emails, websites visited and searches, as well as their metadata.

Analysts can also use XKeyscore and other NSA systems to obtain ongoing "real-time" interception of an individual's internet activity.

Under US law, the NSA is required to obtain an individualized Fisa warrant only if the target of their surveillance is a 'US person', though no such warrant is required for intercepting the communications of Americans with foreign targets. But XKeyscore provides the technological capability, if not the legal authority, to target even US persons for extensive electronic surveillance without a warrant provided that some identifying information, such as their email or IP address, is known to the analyst.

One training slide illustrates the digital activity constantly being collected by XKeyscore and the analyst's ability to query the databases at any time....


Contains slides and everything of what the NSA does.

[rvg]

According to the slides the data is stored for no more than 30 days simply because they cannot physically store long term this volume of information. That's not scary at all actually.

[Beskar]

I think GCHQ was 3 Months, but yes, there are physical limits.

[rvg]

That's not the point. The point is that these are secret laws, secret courts, secret protocols, and the oversight committees that oversee them are in the defense industry's pocket. It doesn't matter how benign the rules are when nobody has to follow them.
So that basically means that the US government operates like just about any other government.

[rvg]

:wall: Whatever. We can do better than a Congress full of a spineless tools,
Indeed...


a supreme court full of equally spineless tools,
:inquisitive:


and a president who can't keep his lies and promises straight.
Meh. Maybe he knows something that he can't share with us as far as why this program should keep on going.


If you're not outraged, you're part of the problem.
It would be akin to getting outraged over the fact that the world is not perfect.

[TheLastDays]

Meh. Maybe he knows something that he can't share with us as far as why this program should keep on going.


It would be akin to getting outraged over the fact that the world is not perfect.

Outrage is maybe not the answer but indifference isn't either. But the first statement is nonsense if you believe in true democracy.

Now don't get me wrong I don't believe democracy is the holy grail but if one believes in it (and the US believe that they are a democratic nation, no?) how can there be anything the people should not know? How can the people rule the country if they don't know what's going on?

[rvg]

If the Supreme Court wasn't spineless and/or totally corrupt, Money would not equal speech in the most literal and democratically offensive way possible. No love for the supremes.
Can you back up this claim with something specific?



Which would be part of the problem. The President serves a 4-8 year term, so if every incoming president suddenly is faced with the facts of our secretive and perpetually growing national security apparatus, and that truth is enough to compromise said president's values, then I blame the apparatus. Obviously there's crap going on that shouldn't be going on, and we can't know about it because why, again? If its too damned sneaky and evil for the public to know about, then its a bad :daisy:ing idea and should be done away with.
A state with no state secrets? Unlikely.


Not really. We've been spinning the wheels in this country for decades, and complacency is the enemy. Only the most ignorant bastard living under a rock is unaware of how corrupt our government is, and only a self-hating ignorant bastard is okay with it. I hope my generation tears this crap down, but more likely we'll just watch and laugh, like previous generations.You're letting the emotions get the best of you over something that's as old as the civilization itself.


Outrage is maybe not the answer but indifference isn't either. But the first statement is nonsense if you believe in true democracy.
True democracy died with the ancient Athens.


Now don't get me wrong I don't believe democracy is the holy grail but if one believes in it (and the US believe that they are a democratic nation, no?) how can there be anything the people should not know? How can the people rule the country if they don't know what's going on?
People aren't entitled to know everything. Joe Blow down the road doesn't need to know specific details about the U.S. nuclear capability.

[TheLastDays]

People aren't entitled to know everything. Joe Blow down the road doesn't need to know specific details about the U.S. nuclear capability.

Why? Who said that? Whose decision is that?

[rvg]

Citizens United v. the FEC. That decision was as wrong as wrong decisions get.
Their reasoning is logical enough. What's your beef exactly?




This is the information age. Stupid axioms about something being as old as civilization itself ignores the fact that we live in an era of change and expanding possibilities. If the American people fail to try for a better option, the alternative is not for things to stay the same, but to get worse in a way that you don't foresee. What started with the Patriot Act and has continued (even thrived) under Obama's administration is the beginnings of a police state that threatens everything. Screw the rhetoric, look at the facts. The infrastructure is there, thanks to tax-payer dollars. We now live in a free society at the mercy of unelected spooks. Fuck that.
Bla bla bla big brother bla bla evil feds bla bla I must know everything the CIA knows, does, plans or thinks. You know what, no. NO. There are things you don't need to know.


Why? Who said that? Whose decision is that?
The state, thank God. It's common sense really.

[TheLastDays]

Their reasoning is logical enough. What's your beef exactly?

Bla bla bla big brother bla bla evil feds bla bla I must know everything the CIA knows, does, plans or thinks. You know what, no. NO. There are things you don't need to know.

The state, thank God. It's common sense really.

Alright, so who is "the state"? I thought that's the people... Now I do overreact to make a point, just to make that clear, but the problem is that today we experience an age where we move from a people that knew mostly about the state and therefore cared about it to a small elite that removes more and more from "necessary public knowledge" and thus creates their own secret society. The voter, who is supposed to decide the "future of the land" doesn't know what he needs to know to even make informed decisions.

And if I don't need to know everything the CIA does then why in the world are they allowed to know everything I do?

[rvg]

Alright, so who is "the state"? I thought that's the people...
The state is the people. At least the representative democracy is.


The voter, who is supposed to decide the "future of the land" doesn't know what he needs to know to even make informed decisions.
The average voter is a moron who shouldn't be trusted with a safety scissors, let alone something important.


And if I don't need to know everything the CIA does then why in the world are they allowed to know everything I do?
Because they're the CIA. The state has allowed them to do that.

[TheLastDays]

The average voter is a moron who shouldn't be trusted with a safety scissors, let alone something important.

Alright, now we're talking. So why does everyone still believe democracy is the way to go?


Because they're the CIA. The state has allowed them to do that.

Not my state.

[rvg]

Are you totally opposed to the idea of reforming the intelligence apparatus, rvg, or do you firmly believe that people should behave like sheep and just listen to their betters?

You're presenting me with a false dilemma.

[Montmorency]

True democracy died with the ancient Athens.


No, it died with the Germanic "barbarians". :smug:

But anyway, this is equivocation.


You're presenting me with a false dilemma.

What other options are there than: to reform, or not to reform?

Anyway, it's at least nice to know that they aren't wasting too much on trying to store all this data.

[Gregoshi]

The state is the people. At least the representative democracy is.

The average voter is a moron who shouldn't be trusted with a safety scissors, let alone something important.

Impressive back-to-back comments.

[Greyblades]

I'm presenting you with the real dilemma, going on in America, right now.

I think he means a false dichtomy, translation: he thinks the two options you said arent the only options.

[drone]

Anyway, it's at least nice to know that they aren't wasting too much on trying to store all this data.
I wonder how high a price tag that new taxpayer-funded server farm in Utah has. ~:rolleyes:

The only way the program will be shut down is when it is used to spy on a serving member of Congress for election dirty tricks. And this will happen eventually.

[rvg]

Impressive back-to-back comments.

Look at Congress. Those clowns represent America.

[Papewaio]

General Petraeus.

Was found out by an email trail. Was it really the FBI who found this out or was it an NSA background check?

Was it legit or did someone in NSA have a score to settle with the CIA head?

[Montmorency]

I wonder how high a price tag that new taxpayer-funded server farm in Utah has.

$3 billion, $5 billion, I dunno - but at least some (http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/07/24/blueprints-of-nsa-data-center-in-utah-suggest-its-storage-capacity-is-less-impressive-than-thought/) bang for the buck I figure.



Hopefully, this is a long-enough term investment that, assuming most of the data is flushed regularly, and assuming the technology used is sufficiently secret and/or cutting-edge and will be periodically upgraded, there will be no need for such constructions for many decades.

For this specific purpose, at least...


The only way the program will be shut down is when it is used to spy on a serving member of Congress for election dirty tricks.

What if they already do that to all of them? What if that's part of why Congress hasn't been all that upset by the NSA's policies?

[rvg]

Exactly. These programs mean that the line between tin-foil-hat-stuff and legitimate concerns is now absurdly blurry. That's a huge problem that threatens to rightly undermine our entire government. We're at a cross-roads, and Congress took the wrong road when they voted down that amendment.

So punish them. If the congressman voted "nay", don't vote him next time . If the the popular sentiment is truly so anti-NSA, then none of naysayers should survive the 2014 election cycle. If they do survive then people likely don't care about this issue as much as you do.

[Papewaio]

Problem is the US has a history of secret dossiers held by the intelligence community that is used to blackmail politicians.

So what will win anti-NSA concerned citizens or politicians who are worried that they might be revealed.

It doesn't even have to be a direct threat. It is just the idea that they will make you the next Petraeus or Weiner.

I'm sure a large chunk of the yes voters have a mistress or some other juicy tit bit.

[drone]

What if they already do that to all of them? What if that's part of why Congress hasn't been all that upset by the NSA's policies?
If it leaks that a serving member has been scoped, Congress will put an end to it very quickly. You can't rely on them for much of anything, but the threat of losing their seats (be they R or D) is one surefire way to wake them up. But I'm sure Congress hasn't really thought through any of the implications. Rule #1, never vote to give a branch power that you don't want the opposition to have.

The temptation to run a scan on the opposition's presidential candidate or political dissidents will be too much for someone to resist. That is the problem with these programs, the smear campaigns write themselves.

[rvg]

Load of dookey. Most of them aren't going anywhere because of Gerrymandering and lack of public involvement. My representative voted Aye, and both of my Senators are against this program. Unfortunately, I come from a state that doesn't really get a say in anything, so its up to the rest of the country to do the right thing.

Perhaps the rest have a different perspective.



Problem is the US has a history of secret dossiers held by the intelligence community that is used to blackmail politicians.
So what will win anti-NSA concerned citizens or politicians who are worried that they might be revealed.
It doesn't even have to be a direct threat. It is just the idea that they will make you the next Petraeus or Weiner.
I'm sure a large chunk of the yes voters have a mistress or some other juicy tit bit.
Hearsay, hearsay and more hearsay. Besides, politicians do not elect themselves, even before the general election they have to win the primary. Neither party would nominate a candidate that is a clear political liability even too keep them under control. If a republican knows something, chances are that there's a democrat that knows the same exact thing. There might be others too, but they do not matter.

[Papewaio]

Right and j edgar hoover was a fictional character.

[rvg]

Hearsay my ass.

The FBI tried to take down the civil rights movement. The Red Scare was as much a weapon against the American poor as it was a national defense tool. Nobody "in the know" was afraid of the USSR after the later '60s when the "Missile Gap" was exposed to be not only false, but a backwards view of the strategic environment. The CIA imported crack for profit, and has always been used for illegal financial gain by whoever is in power. The list goes on, and I shudder to think about the stuff that hasn't or never will be revealed. So screw your rosy-tinted glasses, some stuff needs to change.
I think you just need to accept the fact that you're in the minority on this one. It's no big deal really: I'm in minority on great many things, you don't see me flipping out over that. By November 2014 nobody will remember/care about NSA, Snowden, Manning, Assange, whatever. Nobody will give a crap. Well maybe not nobody, but not enough for it to matter in any way whatsoever. You can't change the world, dude. Once you accept that and concentrate on things you can change, you'll become a much happier person.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I think you just need to accept the fact that you're in the minority on this one. It's no big deal really: I'm in minority on great many things, you don't see me flipping out over that. By November 2014 nobody will remember/care about NSA, Snowden, Manning, Assange, whatever. Nobody will give a crap. Well maybe not nobody, but not enough for it to matter in any way whatsoever. You can't change the world, dude. Once you accept that and concentrate on things you can change, you'll become a much happier person.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

[rvg]

Oh shut up. There's a big difference between being in the minority on an issue that doesn't matter, and being in the minority on an issue regarding the fundamental nature of freedom. What makes you think that I'm can't be in the minority on an important issue?


I don't think I am in the minority, I just don't think most people are aware of the crap that has gone on or continues to go on.
As you said, this is the digital age. Information finds you even if you don't go out looking for it. Heck, it finds you even if you actively hide from it. Ignorance is no longer a plausible explanation.


People assume the myths about stuff the CIA has done are just myths, or things from the distant past, but the reality is that our freedoms are abused by these agencies every day. If you think that is okay, that's not just you expressing your opinion on a political matter, that's you expressing a desire to not be free.
I believe things that can be proven. I can even believe things that are light of factual proof as long as there's solid logical reasoning behind any particular theory. Most conspiracy theories do not pass the lithmus test.

[Montmorency]

It's not a matter of reason, it's a matter of power.


I believe things that can be proven. I can even believe things that are light of factual proof as long as there's solid logical reasoning behind any particular theory. Most conspiracy theories do not pass the lithmus test.

Is it really such a kooky theory that things similar to what has happened in the past are happening in the present?

[rvg]

Is it really such a kooky theory that things similar to what has happened in the past are happening in the present?
It really is. Just because something can happen doesn't mean that it is happening. A great many things can happen. It's not too much to ask for some evidence, some telltale signs that can prove that it's happening.
Sorta like saying that since aliens may exist, they must exist.



I did not quote one incident that wasn't proven already. Sure, lots of redactions, but you're cool with that right? Then again, how old are you? Why haven't you done this research on your own already? Why the hell am I explaining this to you?
You know what, I'll leave you to your outrage. Go ahead and fume.

[a completely inoffensive name]

RVG must have some stake in the game. I don't blame him, there is an entire complex and the government money flows generously.

[Montmorency]

Sorta like saying that since aliens may exist, they must exist.

Sorta like saying, the sun rose yesterday so it might rise again - quite a preponderance of evidence for that, actually...

[a completely inoffensive name]

Sorta like saying, the sun rose yesterday so it might rise again - quite a preponderance of evidence for that, actually...

You fool, induction does not prove anything.

[Montmorency]

Neither does deduction, ultimately.

But you seem to have missed the point as well. Compare my example to rvg's example and note the similarities.

[rvg]

Damnit man, that's not the point. The point is that there are no safeguards to make sure bad things aren't happening with the billions of dollars we throw at black budgets every freaking year.
Of course there are no safeguards, but you can't place a watchdog behind everyone, because you'll also have to place another watchdog behind every watch dog and yet another watchdog behind that one for good measure. At some point you have to believe that not everyone in the government is gonna screw up and piss away all that money. If you have zero trust in the entire structure of the government and if you're actually correct in your lack of trust, than it's too late already. The game's over and we've lost.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Neither does deduction, ultimately.

But you seem to have missed the point as well. Compare my example to rvg's example and note the similarities.

I'm not actually a participant here. I'm just trying to bait people.

[Montmorency]

If you have zero trust in the entire structure of the government and if you're actually correct in your lack of trust, than it's too late already. The game's over and we've lost.

Well, couldn't there be a space between 'Basically good enough, no need to rock the boat' and 'Game over, man!'?

[Montmorency]

You're making my case for me. The premise of Democracy is accountability to the people. We are watching that erode one Patriot Act, NDAA, Drone Strike, or bit of corporate subversion at a time. The whole damned thing needs to be brought before the people, it has gone far enough.

Unfortunately for you, at this point the people will plump for the system, or at least not nearly enough are disgruntled to your level for profound changes to occur.

[rvg]

You're making my case for me. The premise of Democracy is accountability to the people. We are watching that erode one Patriot Act, NDAA, Drone Strike, or bit of corporate subversion at a time. The whole damned thing needs to be brought before the people, it has gone far enough.
I'm not sure what's your beef with drone strikes, but as far as bringing the whole thing "before the people", what makes you think that "the people" will use it wisely and to a more beneficial net effect than the state would?


There is a legislative/corporate alliance that includes the Defense industry and the Intelligence Apparatus, and it is every bit the monster that Eisenhower warned us about. The crap has to go, or the government has to admit that democracy is not the future. The alternative is an entire generation of people like me who fully understand that this is a load of crap we're being fed.
If a man is not for sale, he's not for sale no matter what. Look at John McCain for instance. I disagree with him on a great deal of issues, but the man has honor and integrity and he managed to keep them throughout the decades in the Senate. Elect people with integrity, you get a government with integrity. Otherwise, garbage in -- garbage out.

[Montmorency]

Eh, well - if congressional aides are said to pretty much do all the work for their superiors, perhaps we might just leave it all to them? :smile:

[rvg]

I have a beef with Awlaki getting killed. The man was never charged with anything, and we will never know if just anyone can in fact be killed by a Drone at the President's whim. There is literally no way to know, because the entire criteria are classified with the rest of the program.
And you think that if the people held the trigger to that hellfire missile, they would not have pulled that trigger?


The whole thing needs to be put before the people because it is the people who own this boat. Congress has become an institution, not a governing body. The entire system needs to be re-evaluated, and I wouldn't even know where to start. I just know it needs to happen. What we have is not good government, it is good graft.
Here's a thought... if "the people" get to run everything, who will be held accountable for when things go wrong? The people aren't gonna flagellate themselves, they'll forgive themselves and pretend like nothing happened.

[rvg]

That's not the point. I think any laws that pertain to killing US citizens should be openly debated before being acted upon. In this case the government took it upon itself to draft secret laws and then kill the guy, without ever having a public debate on the implications. The people were cut out of the deal and urged to cheer about it. That's tin-foil-hat-shit that is all too real.
If that's your pet peeve, I understand. To me it made little difference, I'd kill that bastard if he were American, Saudi, Russian or Papuan. It made little difference to me. If the government tries something like that on someone who does NOT publicly declare himself to be the enemy, yeah, I'll have a problem with that. As far as Awlaki goes, he's precisely where he belongs.


All I'm arguing for is open government. The occasional referendum is essential to that.
How occasional? What kinds of issues in your opinion would be worthy of a referendum?

[rvg]

Pay attention! They circumvented the constitution and the American people are taking it as a matter of course. We have fallen, hard. Its not a pet peeve. If you have any basic understanding of law at all, you understand the power of precedent. Our bureaucracy runs on it, and always has.
I understand and I do not care. Rules are good, but we can't be slaves to those rules 100% of the time and regardless of what's going on. Between feeling righteous and having Awlaki alive vs feeling less righteous and having him dead I'd choose the latter every time.


Congress is what needs a referendum. The military industrial complex needs a referendum. Congress no longer represents the will of the people, and I think the people deserve a chance to demonstrate that fact in a fair referendum of some sort. Gerrymandering and other sorts of corruption have rendered the normal methods obsolete or, rather, defeated at the hands of politicians.
You offer no specifics. You want to take the power, but you aren't stating for what purpose. How are you different from the government?

[rvg]

He'd be dead either way. The problem is that the checks and balances were ignored to make it happen. He wasn't exactly Bin Laden. The precedent of how Awlawki came to be killed is way more important than the fact that he was killed. The precedent is: if you declare yourself to be the enemy of the US and actively aid enemies of the US, you get to die in a huge explosion. I like that kind of precedent.



I don't want shit. Nobody does. Congress should have all the power it was designed to have, and it should be doing the peoples' work with that power. That's not what is going on. Do you know the percentage of congressmen that go on to be lobbyists when they are done in Congress? Over 50%. Did you know insider trading rules don't apply to Congress? The whole damned thing is a giant, unwieldy, embarassing, and expensive conflict of interest. It needs to be reformed, not replaced. Not just congress, but the whole apparatus of government. Will if be staffed by a race of altruistic supermen? No matter what system gets put in place, it will be abused. Every time. Guaranteed. The current system would work just fine if we have the will to send good people to Washington. Not partisan hacks, but actual decent people who care about this country. Change that, and you won't have to change anything else, the system will work like a charm just the way it is.

[rvg]

Until it isn't just enemies of the state.
If that day comes I'll say "Cube, you were right, let's get our guns."


Did you know that chaining yourself to a tree can get you over 30 years in prison as an environmental "terrorist"? Did you know that legislation was pushed for in large part by Haliburton, in order to safeguard their natural gas exploitation of public land, under special exemptions from long-standing environmental law?
Has anyone been sentenced to 30 years for that?


Did you know that the private prison industry houses many illegal immigrants, and has also been instrumental in lobbying for tougher laws on immigration? This crap is so broken.
Sure, the industry is looking out for itself. What's there to do, send those guys to state prisons? Release them? Give them citizenship? There are no easy solutions.



I agree, but you are refusing to see how borked the system is. No honest man can survive in Washington. Even your buddy McCain sold out years ago.
I see its borkedness, but its borkedness must be taken in the context of the big picture. Certain changes can be made, but they must be slow, gradual and well thought out. I firmly believe that if people truly lose their patience with some aspect of our life, they will change that aspect fairly quickly and fairly radically. I also do not think that any specific American problem has reached its boiling point just yet.

[Xiahou]

First the NSA, now the DEA (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R20130805)...

A secretive U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration unit is funneling information from intelligence intercepts, wiretaps, informants and a massive database of telephone records to authorities across the nation to help them launch criminal investigations of Americans.

Although these cases rarely involve national security issues, documents reviewed by Reuters show that law enforcement agents have been directed to conceal how such investigations truly begin - not only from defense lawyers but also sometimes from prosecutors and judges.

The undated documents show that federal agents are trained to "recreate" the investigative trail to effectively cover up where the information originated, a practice that some experts say violates a defendant's Constitutional right to a fair trial. If defendants don't know how an investigation began, they cannot know to ask to review potential sources of exculpatory evidence - information that could reveal entrapment, mistakes or biased witnesses.
Justice schmustice, right?

[Fisherking]

from your link:





One current federal prosecutor learned how agents were using SOD tips after a drug agent misled him, the prosecutor told Reuters. In a Florida drug case he was handling, the prosecutor said, a DEA agent told him the investigation of a U.S. citizen began with a tip from an informant. When the prosecutor pressed for more information, he said, a DEA supervisor intervened and revealed that the tip had actually come through the SOD and from an NSA intercept.

But they don't listen to the call, right? Right, and SFTW is the tooth fairy! And GC is actually head of the RNC. Any more lies from these people?

[Xiahou]

Not to be outdone, the FBI wants in on the action (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57596791-38/fbi-pressures-internet-providers-to-install-surveillance-software/) too...
The U.S. government is quietly pressuring telecommunications providers to install eavesdropping technology deep inside companies' internal networks to facilitate surveillance efforts.

FBI officials have been sparring with carriers, a process that has on occasion included threats of contempt of court, in a bid to deploy government-provided software capable of intercepting and analyzing entire communications streams. The FBI's legal position during these discussions is that the software's real-time interception of metadata is authorized under the Patriot Act.

Attempts by the FBI to install what it internally refers to as "port reader" software, which have not been previously disclosed, were described to CNET in interviews over the last few weeks. One former government official said the software used to be known internally as the "harvesting program."

Carriers are "extra-cautious" and are resisting installation of the FBI's port reader software, an industry participant in the discussions said, in part because of the privacy and security risks of unknown surveillance technology operating on an sensitive internal network.

It's "an interception device by definition," said the industry participant, who spoke on condition of anonymity because court proceedings are sealed. "If magistrates knew more, they would approve less." It's unclear whether any carriers have installed port readers, and at least one is actively opposing the installation. Someone pass me a tinfoil hat please.... :no:

[Husar]

Might be time to get rid of my smart phone and go back to a dumb one.

That's not going to stop anything. Doesn't really matter whether you say it, SMS it or write it publicly on Facebook. If they capture all of it, then they get your message anyway.

What really surprises me is that some of you people are against it. Given that this is legal due to the patriot act, you don't sound very patriotic. Why do you hate freedom and aid terrorists? :inquisitive:

[rvg]

That's not going to stop anything. Doesn't really matter whether you say it, SMS it or write it publicly on Facebook. If they capture all of it, then they get your message anyway.

What really surprises me is that some of you people are against it. Given that this is legal due to the patriot act, you don't sound very patriotic. Why do you hate freedom and aid terrorists? :inquisitive:

There's only one thing left to do: Each and every one of us has to send out at least one terrorist phonecall/SMS per day. Maybe mention to close family members something about blowing up a school or something along those lines. If the entire population gets flagged and has to be monitored, the whole surveillance system will implode.

[rvg]

Why worry? If needed, the system can be easily overwhelmed with false positives and become totally useless. On that note, is my shipment of TNT ready yet?

[Fisherking]

Oh yes, by all means!

But remember the kid in Texas. It was an obvious joke but they locked him up and through away the key.

Making jokes or trying to overwhelm the system will get you in a lot of trouble. These people make the Stasi look like the good guys.

[TheLastDays]

These people make the Stasi look like the good guys.

Oh some of them weren't that bad. I used to go fishing with that one guy...

Anyway I mean I don't plan to do anything illegal that I'd have to hide and still I don't think this is right. Wanting my privacy doesn't have anything to do with being a terrorist.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Hooray, add another apathetic cog in the machine.

[Fisherking]

No, the answer is not to give up. It doesn’t matter that you are tying to have a low profile either, or have no bad intent.

You are missing what is happening!


In your neighborhood there is a dangerous paranoid. He thinks everyone is out to get him and that everyone is a terrorist. He thinks it is his job to eliminate all those terrorists to save the world. This makes everyone a target. Any tiny innocent thing can set this guy off.

But you can’t call the police because they believe him.

That Him, just happens to be the Federal Government and all of its agencies.

You are all, defacto bad people!

The Nut Job has to be stopped and put some place where they won’t hurt anyone. But it is not going to be easy!

[rvg]

Oh yes, by all means! But remember the kid in Texas. It was an obvious joke but they locked him up and through away the key.
That's because it was just him. Add a million more and the system becomes useless.

[Strike For The South]

5 years ago the same people bemoaning the government now were actively cheering it on and throwing out the traitor line at any opportunity. I feel less than nothing for you people.

This is what the nation state does, in fact if the United States wasn't doing this I would think the bureaucrats are getting lazy. The correct way to change this is to organize, and elect representatives whom will change the law and afford the same protections to phone and e-traffic that the post gets (which was a big battle in its day) This is nothing new, correspondence has always been a privacy vs security battle.

The real "Orwellian" thing here is this melodrama on the internet. People confirm their biases, bitch, throw around words like stasi and bemoan the state of things to make themselves feel important. You know what's important? Voting, excersising your rights as a citizen.

I'm just waiting for some obese, mouth breathing, tea party ass to pump a postal worker full of lead because he's a government employee. There is nothing worse in this life than people with short memories.

[Noncommunist]

That's because it was just him. Add a million more and the system becomes useless.

But for that to work, everyone would need to be confident that everyone else is doing it. Otherwise, many would be less willing to stick their neck out for fear that others wouldn't and only the brave idiots get in trouble. Not quite prisoners dilemma but stag hunt where free riding doesn't really offer much of an advantage but confidence is still needed for everyone to get on board.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stag_hunt

[Fisherking]

Since you seem to be talking about me, your memory is quite screwed up if you think I took the government side on these issues, ever. I said the patriot act was a mistake when they did it, as was homeland security. Look at the other stuff coming out about DEA and FBI phone surveillance.

Yes we need to get rid of the people in there and their parties to go with them! The only difference between the two is the brand of lies they tell.

Come back when you are sober.

[rvg]

But for that to work, everyone would need to be confident that everyone else is doing it. Otherwise, many would be less willing to stick their neck out for fear that others wouldn't and only the brave idiots get in trouble. Not quite prisoners dilemma but stag hunt where free riding doesn't really offer much of an advantage but confidence is still needed for everyone to get on board.

Not necessary. There are plenty of ways to word the inquiries so that they would both flag the system and yet firmly remain under the 1st amendment's protection.

[Kadagar_AV]

Uh... Sorry to say so, but wasn't this known in the 90's? The whole Echelon thingy...

It's 2013 now, no one has stopped them, and of course they have refined the technology used.

I think the lack of moral uproar is due to everyone knowing USA is ****** up. It's not new, nor is it news.

*and some people wonder why I paint USA as the devil*

[Fisherking]

Not necessary. There are plenty of ways to word the inquiries so that they would both flag the system and yet firmly remain under the 1st amendment's protection.


Unless http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/fact-sheet-us-constitution-free-zone

http://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights-constitution-free-zone-map

Your in Michigan, right? Guess what…

[rvg]

Unless http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/fact-sheet-us-constitution-free-zone

http://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights-constitution-free-zone-map

Your in Michigan, right? Guess what…

How does this apply to the 1st amendment? Government stupidity with regards to hunting the illegals is a whole different beast.

[Xiahou]

I'm just waiting for some obese, mouth breathing, tea party ass to pump a postal worker full of lead because he's a government employee. There is nothing worse in this life than people with short memories.Yeah, because there's a lot of evidence for the violent tendencies of tea partiers. If only they could be more like those nice OWS guys....

By the way, how are things in fantasy land? :dizzy2:


You know what's important? Voting, excersising your rights as a citizen.You think it would have been any different under President Romney?

[TheLastDays]

You think it would have been any different under President Romney?

Mitt Romney oder ohne? :laugh4:

Different, maybe but that doesn't necessarily mean better...

[Montmorency]

The state can do whatever surveillance stuff they want, as long as they get the rent-seeking monkey(s) off their back.

[Papewaio]

Just think of all your electronic communication as postcards from now on. Able to be viewed by any agency government or company who carry it between transmission and receiver.

=][=

I don't know how they flag meta data. It might be key words it might be deeper ie can parse sentences.

But if I was going to trip wires I'd use day glo paint and no threats.

Subject: Tin Hats, Terrorism, Al Qaeda and Government Surveillance
Contents:

I don't like:
Terrorists
Al Qaeda
Lack of privacy
People cutting in line
Wars against nominative statements
Bin Laden, Bin Full or Bin Juice and rubbish night is a couple of days away

I like:
Turkish Kebabs
Lebanese charcoal chicken
Egyptian Pyramids
The Afghan - Aussie Train
Pakistan cricket team
Tunisian Twitter

[HopAlongBunny]

http://youtu.be/h2oRzqdO58E

[rvg]

A few half decent worms firing off of a midsized botnet emailing the right keywords to every contact on an infected machine, and the whole surveillance system will be in deep trouble.

[Papewaio]

Except NSA probably has first access to day one exploits and MS will patch it.

Also with standard server storage deduplication that same file will just be stored once and indexed against many. Not much storage required.

[Husar]

The correct way to change this is to organize, and elect representatives whom will change the law and afford the same protections to phone and e-traffic that the post gets (which was a big battle in its day)

Oh, that would be a good point if the post weren't actually monitored as well:

Source you won't like: http://rt.com/usa/us-nsa-mail-spying-706/
Source with partially related content: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us/monitoring-of-snail-mail.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Source on subject: http://news.msn.com/rumors/rumor-usps-photographs-outside-of-letters-before-delivery
Another source on subject: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/02/postal-service-photos_n_3694589.html

Now they're not reading the contents yet, but they do provide all the information about origin and destination that law enforcement asks for it seems.

[Beskar]

Secure Email servers such as Lavabit (http://www.theguardian.com/technology/shortcuts/2013/aug/09/lavabit-defunct-secure-email) (one of many) are being taken offline by the United States government.

The Lavabit website says this:

My Fellow Users,

I have been forced to make a difficult decision: to become complicit in crimes against the American people or walk away from nearly ten years of hard work by shutting down Lavabit. After significant soul searching, I have decided to suspend operations. I wish that I could legally share with you the events that led to my decision. I cannot. I feel you deserve to know what’s going on--the first amendment is supposed to guarantee me the freedom to speak out in situations like this. Unfortunately, Congress has passed laws that say otherwise. As things currently stand, I cannot share my experiences over the last six weeks, even though I have twice made the appropriate requests.

What’s going to happen now? We’ve already started preparing the paperwork needed to continue to fight for the Constitution in the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals. A favorable decision would allow me resurrect Lavabit as an American company.

This experience has taught me one very important lesson: without congressional action or a strong judicial precedent, I would _strongly_ recommend against anyone trusting their private data to a company with physical ties to the United States.

Sincerely,
Ladar Levison
Owner and Operator, Lavabit LLC

[a completely inoffensive name]

Stop using the internet.
Pay in cash.
Encrypt your computer.

I went to Kohl's to buy some shorts and they asked if I wanted to sign up for a Kohl's card. I said sure, why not. When I got my Ralph's card, they didn't even have me turn in the paperwork, cashier just gave me a card and as far as I know, neither my name nor phone number is even associated with it.

But Kohl's? They wanted my SSN in order to get the card. Hell no. I told the lady I forgot my number and to forget about it. She then looked at me like I was an idiot and asked how I did not know my SSN. I said, idk I rarely need it, just let me buy my shorts and leave lady. I would rather have people think I am an idiot than paranoid. It's probably safer that way in the first place.

[Papewaio]

I thought paranoid was the easy one to pull off... But if you want to pull off a lie go with your strengths. :smoking:

They weren't shorts, they were hot pants ... At least that is what the NSA brief of briefs said. :creep:

[a completely inoffensive name]

Oooh. I am such an idiot. The Kohl's card might have been like a credit card. When they say "Do you want to get our card and save 15%?" How am I supposed to know its more than just a data gathering discount card?

[Tuuvi]

A Kohl's card is a credit card. I work at JC Penney and we have to try to get people to sign up for store credit cards as well.

I always get nervous when I ask someone if they would like to open a JC Penney card and they say "yes" without even blinking, especially when they don't speak English well. I worry that they don't realize they're signing up for a credit card.

I hate pushing those things so bad.

[Fisherking]

Making You 'Comfortable' with Spying Is Obama's Big NSA Fix
Posted By Shane Harris Friday, August 9, 2013 - 5:26 PM


Barack Obama held a press conference on Friday afternoon, supposedly to announce reforms of the NSA's far-flung surveillance programs. In reality, the White House briefing was the start of a marketing campaign for the spy programs that have turned so controversial in recent months. And the president's message really boiled down to this: It's more important to persuade people surveillance is useful and legal than to make structural changes to the programs.
"The question is, how do I make the American people more comfortable?" Obama said.
Not that Obama's unwilling to make any changes to America's surveillance driftnets -- and he detailed a few of them -- but his overriding concern was that people didn't believe him when he said there was nothing to fear.
In an awkward analogy, the president said that if he'd told his wife Michelle that he had washed the dishes after dinner, she might not believe him. So he might have to take her into the kitchen and show her the evidence.
The tour of the NSA's kitchen appeared today in the form of two "white papers," one produced by the Justice Department, another by the NSA, that offered a robust defense of the legal basis for the programs, and their value, but offered practically no new details to the administration's already public defense. If the president meant to offer more proof that the programs really are fine, it was not to be found in the information his administration released today.
What structural alterations the president said he is willing to make to the surveillance regime mostly took the form of initial sketches and broad commitments to balance "security and liberty." In perhaps his biggest concession, Obama said he was willing to consider changing procedures in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which authorizes NSA surveillance, so that an opposing position to the government's could be heard in certain circumstances. Without committing to any specifics, he also said he'd work with Congress to "pursue appropriate reforms" to the bulk phone records program. And Obama announced he'd convene an independent review board on the state of national security technology and its role in modern society. (It might take the form of this one, which was convened a decade ago.)

But these changes, while not merely cosmetic, have already been proposed by members of Congress and outside experts. The president offered no proposals to fundamentally change the surveillance programs, because as far as he's concerned, they don't need to be changed.
Now if he could just make everyone see that.
Friday was a start. In his most extensive remarks to date about the controversy over surveillance programs that has dogged his administration, President Obama sought to assuage his critics, and the public at large, that there is nothing to fear from the National Security Agency. And he should know, because he's the president.

"If you start seeing a bunch of headlines saying 'U.S, Big Brother looking down on you,'" Obama said at an afternoon White House press conference, "understandably people would be concerned. I would be too if I wasn't inside the government."
The crux of the president's message rested on his fundamental and considered belief that the NSA's global surveillance programs, including those that collect the phone records of millions of Americans, are both legal and tightly regulated. The president, who as a candidate railed against the intelligence excesses of the NSA under George W. Bush, said today that he'd been skeptical of those programs, and that once in office, having had the chance to review them, found that they were essential.
"The two programs at issue offer valuable intelligence that helps us protect the American people and they're worth preserving," Obama said, referring to the bulk collection of phone records and electronic surveillance of foreigners overseas, which frequently sweeps in the communications of American citizens.
Obama resisted any suggestion that the leaks by former NSA-contractor Ed Snowden had caused him to rethink his position. Indeed, he said he'd initiated a review of intelligence programs before Snowden began providing details about them to the press two months ago. As a result, Obama said he decided to "tighten some bolts" by adding additional layers of oversight of secretive intelligence gathering.
And it was those steps, he said, as well as the constitutional system of checks and balances that has kept the NSA from violating Americans' privacy, overstepping legal bounds, or reverting to the kinds of domestic spying that were a hallmark of darker days, when the intelligence community routinely spied on some Americans to monitor their political activities. The programs are useful, legal, and working just fine, he insisted.
But, Obama allowed, not everyone in the country is so confident.

"It's not enough for me as the President to have confidence in these programs. The American people have to have confidence in them as well."

[HopAlongBunny]

Just a couple thousand errors: human fallibility and all that

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2013/08/20138165553987562.html

[drone]

Quadrupled the oversight budget, doubled the number of violations and "mistakes". I'd bring up Hanlon's razor, but I'm starting to think both malice and stupidity are in full effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME

[Fisherking]

Quadrupled the oversight budget, doubled the number of violations and "mistakes". I'd bring up Hanlon's razor, but I'm starting to think both malice and stupidity are in full effect.

I would argue that the razor has it backwards.

It is more like when an organization does something malicious and gets caught, cover it as a stupid error by an underling.

[drone]

A nice little addition to the brouhaha: Who watches the watchers? Apparently the 3 blind mice. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/court-ability-to-police-us-spying-program-limited/2013/08/15/4a8c8c44-05cd-11e3-a07f-49ddc7417125_story.html)


The leader of the secret court that is supposed to provide critical oversight of the government’s vast spying programs said that its ability to do so is limited and that it must trust the government to report when it improperly spies on Americans.

The chief judge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court said the court lacks the tools to independently verify how often the government’s surveillance breaks the court’s rules that aim to protect Americans’ privacy. Without taking drastic steps, it also cannot check the veracity of the government’s assertions that the violations its staff members report are unintentional mistakes.

“The FISC is forced to rely upon the accuracy of the information that is provided to the Court,” its chief, U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton, said in a written statement to The Washington Post. “The FISC does not have the capacity to investigate issues of noncompliance, and in that respect the FISC is in the same position as any other court when it comes to enforcing [government] compliance with its orders.”

[HopAlongBunny]

Gives a whole new meaning to the term organized crime.

[Fisherking]

Gives a whole new meaning to the term organized crime.

Not even in the same league. When the mob tell you something, you can believe them.

[rvg]

Not even in the same league. When the mob tell you something, you can believe them.

Unless they're lying.

[Fisherking]

Ok, so everyone lies. Some occasionally tell a lie but lately the Government never seems to have a compelling enough reason to tell the truth, on anything.


Anyway, a link for those who need all the reasons pointed out why this is not a good idea:

http://piratetimes.net/what-is-a-surveillance-state-and-is-it-good-for-you/

[Fisherking]

And this too: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/18/magazine/laura-poitras-snowden.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0

[HopAlongBunny]

Pretenders pull crimes and never get caught
Pro's have the state give them money w/o oversight...
And bury the event in "secrecy" SsssHhhhh!

[Papewaio]

Reading that NY Times article I came to the conclusion that Snowden isn't paranoid, he just knows they are watching.

I understood that your location can and is tracked... Remember the iPhone debacle which shows it tracks the user... Wonder where all that information ended up.

What surprised me is that like laptops the phones mike can be tapped... Probably also the cameras too.

[Fisherking]

Even the computer in your car engine can be hacked. Also, smart appliances.

[Sir Moody]

Even the computer in your car engine can be hacked. Also, smart appliances.

that's a little exaggerated.

While cars can be hacked they don't usually have remote connections so you would have to plug into them directly which limits the scope of any possible hacks - of course if you have remote assistance or wireless of some kind as an extra then this is a different ball game...

Smart applications however are one of the easiest ways for Hackers to gain entry to a network and can be MASSIVE security holes...

[Papewaio]

Screw the NSA, I'm worried about when the global network of robot doom wakes up.

What better way to accidentally create a singularity then creating a nerve center with massive computational power that can track what all the cells are upto.

[Fisherking]

that's a little exaggerated.

While cars can be hacked they don't usually have remote connections so you would have to plug into them directly which limits the scope of any possible hacks - of course if you have remote assistance or wireless of some kind as an extra then this is a different ball game...

Smart applications however are one of the easiest ways for Hackers to gain entry to a network and can be MASSIVE security holes...

Orion VIS, OnStar, In-Drive autos, and any car with a remote navigation system may be subject to remote hacking. That is a lot of cars. Particularly US models.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OnStar

https://www.onstar.com/web/portal/securityexplore?g=1

[Tellos Athenaios]

that's a little exaggerated.

While cars can be hacked they don't usually have remote connections so you would have to plug into them directly which limits the scope of any possible hacks - of course if you have remote assistance or wireless of some kind as an extra then this is a different ball game...

Quite a lot of them are equipped with Bluetooth, and wouldn't you know it: there've been a few example attacks which result in a complete take-over of the car, including disabling input (from the steering wheel and pedals) and spoofing sensor data to the instruments effectively turning the car into a RF-controlled toy using Bluetooth as an attack vector. (Compromising the Bluetooth enabled system to gain access to the CAN bus...) Also, similar good times are to be had with pacemakers (quite a few of which are also equipped with RF comms and can be remotely tampered with as a result...).

[Sir Moody]

Quite a lot of them are equipped with Bluetooth, and wouldn't you know it: there've been a few example attacks which result in a complete take-over of the car, including disabling input (from the steering wheel and pedals) and spoofing sensor data to the instruments effectively turning the car into a RF-controlled toy using Bluetooth as an attack vector. (Compromising the Bluetooth enabled system to gain access to the CAN bus...) Also, similar good times are to be had with pacemakers (quite a few of which are also equipped with RF comms and can be remotely tampered with as a result...).

I have seen these - slight problem however - Bluetooth is short range which again limits the vector for attacks (you would need to be very close to the car) and if done correctly (sadly this isn't always the case) would require input from inside the car via pairing etc

The problem will be with the coming rise of internet enabled cars which are just starting to hit the market... they are potentially very dangerous since they can be like roaming hot spots... however again this can be mitigated by not connecting the main Cars computer with the new functionality (ie installing a second computer with no hard connections)

[drone]

I have seen these - slight problem however - Bluetooth is short range which again limits the vector for attacks (you would need to be very close to the car) and if done correctly (sadly this isn't always the case) would require input from inside the car via pairing etc

A bluetooth device paired with a longer ranged transmitter, magnetically attached to the undercarraige, would do the trick.

Groklaw just shut down. (http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20130818120421175) Lots of speculation on whether this is the result of an NSL/gag order, just like Lavabit.

[Sir Moody]

A bluetooth device paired with a longer ranged transmitter, magnetically attached to the undercarraige, would do the trick.

Groklaw just shut down. (http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20130818120421175) Lots of speculation on whether this is the result of an NSL/gag order, just like Lavabit.

yes but it would need to be paired - which as I said isn't easy since it requires access to the car first - you couldn't just slip one on a car and then hack it... assuming the manufacturer has the paring system correct and requires a user generated key + input (I know my BMW does but i cant attest for the other manufacturers)

[Fisherking]

If there is an electronic device, assume the government has a key or back door to it.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/09/general-keith-alexander-nsa-system-administrators
No more Snowdens, no more whistleblowers is the goal.


These, you may not have seen:
http://www.albanytribune.com/13082013-white-house-denies-dni-clapper-to-head-independent-nsa-review-group/

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/09/us-usa-surveillance-obama-idUSBRE9780UY20130809


And a portion of an opinion piece on moral relativism, dealing with this topic.



The Current Sales Pitch

Just take a look at the attitude of the Obama Administration and the mainstream media towards Edward Snowden and his recent asylum approved by Russia.

The White House, rather than admitting wrongdoing in its support for the NSA’s mass surveillance of American citizens without warrant, or even attempting to deny the existence of the PRISM program, is now instead trying to promote NSA spying as essential to our well being while wagging a finger of shame at Snowden and the Russian government for damaging their domestic spy network. Obama has lamented on Russia’s stance, stating that their thinking is “backwards.”#

Did I miss something here? I’m no fan of the Russian oligarchy, but shouldn’t Obama and most of the NSA (let alone every other Federal alphabet agency) be sitting in a dark hole somewhere awaiting trial for violating the Constitution on almost every level? Yet, we are instead supposed to despise Snowden for exposing the crime they committed and distrust any country that happens to give him shelter?

Due to public outcry, Obama has attempted to pacify critics by announcing plans to make NSA mass surveillance “more transparent”. First, I would like to point out that he did NOT offer to end NSA spying on Americans without warrant, which is what a President with any ounce of integrity would have done. Second, Obama’s calls for more transparency have come at the exact same time as the NSA announces its plans to remove 90 percent of its systems administrators to make sure another “Snowden incident” does not occur.

Finally, when the public called for an investigation into the NSA and the Director of National Intelligence in the handling of the Snowden affair and the PRISM program, the White House appointed none other than James Clapper, the Director of National Intelligence, as part of the team that would "investigate" any wrongdoing.# The Obama Administration insists that Clapper, a documented liar who told Congress that the NSA was not involved in mass domestic spying, was not going to "head" the panel of investigators, even though a White House memo specifically named Clapper as the man who would form the so-called "independent group".# The White House still admits that Clapper will be involved in the process.
So, just to reiterate, the people who perpetrated the criminal act of warrant-less surveillance on hundreds of millions of Americans, and who were caught red-handed lying about it, are now appointed to investigate their own crime.

Does this sound like a government that plans on becoming “more transparent”?

Ask yourself, would Obama have called for ANY transparency over the NSA whatsoever if Snowden had never come forward? Of course not! The exposure of the crime has led to lies and empty placation, nothing more.

In the meantime, numerous other political miscreants have hit the media trail, campaigning for the NSA as well as other surveillance methods, bellowing to the rafters over the absolute necessity of domestic spy programs. Fifteen years ago, the government would have tried to sweep all of this under the rug. Today, they want to acclimate us to the inevitability of the crime, stating that we had better get used to it.

Their position? That Snowden’s whistleblowing put America at risk. My questions is, how? How did Snowden’s exposure of an unConstitutional and at bottom illegal surveillance program used against hundreds of millions of innocent Americans do our country harm? Is it the position of the White House that the truth is dangerous, and deceit is safety?

I suspect this is the case considering the recent treatment of military whistleblower Bradley Manning, who has been accused by some to have “aided Al Qaeda’s recruiting efforts” through his actions.# How did Manning do this? By releasing information, including battlefield videos, that were hidden from the public containing proof of U.S. war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Perhaps I’m just a traditionalist and not hip to modern diplomatic strategy, but I would think that if you don’t want to be blamed for war crimes, then you probably shouldn’t commit war crimes. And, if you don’t want the enemy to gain new recruits, you should probably avoid killing innocent civilians and pissing off their families (there is also ample evidence suggesting that the CIA has done FAR more deliberate recruiting for Al Qaeda than Bradley Manning could have ever accomplished on accident). Just a thought.
So, to keep track - U.S. government funds and trains Al Qaeda, but is the good guy. U.S. government commits war crimes, but is the good guy. U.S. government hides the truth from the American people, but is the good guy. Bradley Manning exposes war crimes, and is the bad guy. Moral relativism at its finest. Moving on...

[Papewaio]

yes but it would need to be paired - which as I said isn't easy since it requires access to the car first - you couldn't just slip one on a car and then hack it... assuming the manufacturer has the paring system correct and requires a user generated key + input (I know my BMW does but i cant attest for the other manufacturers)

Is there a manufacturers key so they can troubleshoot it?

[Sir Moody]

Is there a manufacturers key so they can troubleshoot it?

of course (and you can buy them off Ebay)- these do require direct access however to the onboard computer - ie you have to be inside the car...

but this of course brings us to ... why - what do you think you will get by hacking a car which you couldn't get off a smartphone which is likely do go where ever the driver goes anyway?

The only people hacking cars are Researchers with too much time and an axe to grind about how insecure everything is...

now back onto the matter at hand...


Another thing we should all consider for a sec is the shear VOLUME of information the NSA is trying to track

in an average minute on-line you will have 640TB of data transferred, 100k tweets added and 204 million e-mails sent - and at current rates this will have DOUBLED by 2015

I don't care how good they claim their database searching is there is no way they can realistically track anything - they are quite literally burying themselves under a mountain of useless information - its the equivalent of trying to find a needle on Mount Everest during a blizzard

I am utterly unworried by their or anyone else's ability to track online information - personally I am more worried about the flagrant abuses of the laws handed to them which allow them to legally gather this all.

The best example is going on right now with the British Police detaining the partner of the News Reporter who writes on the Snowden case for the Guardian - the facts are out and it seem we have given our Police the ability to detain ANYBODY at an airport for 9 hours, finger printing them, seizing their DNA, taking any luggage they see fit (for 7 days apparently) and the only justification they need is "they might be carrying anything which could help terrorism"...

[Montmorency]

I don't care how good they claim their database searching is there is no way they can realistically track anything - they are quite literally burying themselves under a mountain of useless information - its the equivalent of trying to find a needle on Mount Everest during a blizzard

I don't know, going by this (http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/08/the-1-6-percent-of-the-internet-that-nsa-touches-is-bigger-than-it-seems/) they could very well be "touching" pretty much all the data of consequence on the entire Internet.

[drone]

The EFF sued for a 2011 FISA court opinion, and won. The phrase "criminal" was used. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/21/the-fisa-court-got-really-upset-when-the-nsa-didnt-tell-the-truth-on-surveillance/) Shame nothing will come of it.

In case you haven't heard of them, donate to the EFF. They are the ACLU of the internet.

[Xiahou]

Another thing we should all consider for a sec is the shear VOLUME of information the NSA is trying to track

in an average minute on-line you will have 640TB of data transferred, 100k tweets added and 204 million e-mails sent - and at current rates this will have DOUBLED by 2015

I don't care how good they claim their database searching is there is no way they can realistically track anything - they are quite literally burying themselves under a mountain of useless information - its the equivalent of trying to find a needle on Mount Everest during a blizzardYou think that's impossible? Tell that to Google.

[Sir Moody]

You think that's impossible? Tell that to Google.

Google is only dealing with pages + social media - no emails, no instant messaging and no data transfers

And it doesn't even try to look at the "dark" net.

Add to this Google isn't "Live" - if you put a page up now it takes several days to appear in Google (actually better now than it used to be because the Google spider crawls sites more often now)

The shear volume of data acquired in a minute would take even the fastest machines a few hours to index and sort - this created a massive "lag" in the data being acquired and when it can be consumed.

It is the legal framework and oversight we should be railing against here not the actual data acquisition.

[Fisherking]

Google is only dealing with pages + social media - no emails, no instant messaging and no data transfers

And it doesn't even try to look at the "dark" net.

Add to this Google isn't "Live" - if you put a page up now it takes several days to appear in Google (actually better now than it used to be because the Google spider crawls sites more often now)

The shear volume of data acquired in a minute would take even the fastest machines a few hours to index and sort - this created a massive "lag" in the data being acquired and when it can be consumed.

It is the legal framework and oversight we should be railing against here not the actual data acquisition.


What? What is Google Mail, or Gmail? Google Glass: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Glass

Google Earth, pay services give you real time pictures too.

Some of the developments are pretty depressing. Some recent Apple patens for example. Sensing vibrations of their device to detect your mode of travel, switching on microphone and camera to determine your surroundings. Also remote access for key holders, not owners of devices, to turn off or on cell phones and their various components, you know, cameras and microphones, or access your data remotely. They said it was for venues like movies but said it had law enforcement applications too.

You know, like not being able to photograph or film cops, or for government, turn off all phones in a geographic area.

University of Washington has figured out how to read gps locations for phones without batteries in them just by using background RF and electromagnetic energies.

Remotely accessing home WIFI or Smart Meters, for that matter can allow someone to determine where in a home you are and how many people are there and to an extent what they are doing.

I don’t know what others think but having electronic devices with abilities I don’t want them to have, even though we have to pay for them, without being able to disable these functions is just wrong. There is no opt out for any of them, from home computers to RFID chips.

Which reminds me of a Google-Motorola Division paten for RFID vitamins. Your stomach acid works as a battery with them.

[Fisherking]

Also this from the court: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/21/the-fisa-court-got-really-upset-when-the-nsa-didnt-tell-the-truth-on-surveillance/

[HopAlongBunny]

Gee whiz guys
Mistakes happen:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2013/08/20138227357335966.html

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/22/us-usa-security-nsa-idUSBRE97K14Y20130822

Canada has a similar problem with oversight:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/08/22/pol-cp-csec-communications-security-spying-canadians.html
Actually, I would go so far as to speculate all members of the "Five Eyes" engage in overreach and shoddy oversight. Seems to be the nature of the beast.

[Xiahou]

I guess this could also go under the topic about the government forcing you to provide services (http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/08/27/nsa-snowden-russia-obama-column/2702461/)....
Last month, Levison reportedly received an order -- probably a National Security Letter -- to allow the NSA to eavesdrop on everyone's e-mail accounts on Lavabit. Rather than "become complicit in crimes against the American people," he turned the service off. Note that we don't know for sure that he received a NSL -- that's the order authorized by the Patriot Act that doesn't require a judge's signature and prohibits the recipient from talking about it -- or what it covered, but Levison has said that he had complied with requests for individual e-mail access in the past, but this was very different.

So far, we just have an extreme moral act in the face of government pressure. It's what happened next that is the most chilling. The government threatened him with arrest, arguing that shutting down this e-mail service was a violation of the order.

There it is. If you run a business, and the FBI or NSA want to turn it into a mass surveillance tool, they believe they can do so, solely on their own initiative. They can force you to modify your system. They can do it all in secret and then force your business to keep that secret. Once they do that, you no longer control that part of your business. You can't shut it down. You can't terminate part of your service. In a very real sense, it is not your business anymore. It is an arm of the vast U.S. surveillance apparatus, and if your interest conflicts with theirs then they win. Your business has been commandeered.

[Fisherking]

Yes, I saw the article but looked for other sources and couldn’t find much at the time.

It is shameful, abusive, and someone would have to explain in great depth how they think it is remotely constitutional.

But it would seem that all of out government agencies, from federal to local are taking an equally heavy hand in dealing with people who do not wish to comply or surrender their rights.

http://elkodaily.com/news/state-and-regional/henderson-police-sued-over-occupying-homes/article_8d5fceb6-e7e9-11e2-8ec6-0019bb2963f4.html

This may already be in the Police Abuse thread but to me it all ties together. Government vs. Citizens.

[Xiahou]

NYT via Snowden confirms what we already suspected.... N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/06/us/nsa-foils-much-internet-encryption.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0)

The N.S.A. hacked into target computers to snare messages before they were encrypted. In some cases, companies say they were coerced by the government into handing over their master encryption keys or building in a back door. And the agency used its influence as the world’s most experienced code maker to covertly introduce weaknesses into the encryption standards followed by hardware and software developers around the world.
Some of the agency’s most intensive efforts have focused on the encryption in universal use in the United States, including Secure Sockets Layer, or SSL; virtual private networks, or VPNs; and the protection used on fourth-generation, or 4G, smartphones. Many Americans, often without realizing it, rely on such protection every time they send an e-mail, buy something online, consult with colleagues via their company’s computer network, or use a phone or a tablet on a 4G network.
Simultaneously, the N.S.A. has been deliberately weakening the international encryption standards adopted by developers. One goal in the agency’s 2013 budget request was to “influence policies, standards and specifications for commercial public key technologies,” the most common encryption method.
The very organizations that the NSA set up to help companies design robust encryption have actually been used to do the opposite- introduce weakness. It's doubly upsetting to know not only can the NSA decrypt pretty much everything, but they do so by introducing security flaws that others could also exploit. :no:

[Papewaio]

So how many billions/trillions of dollars is this going to potentially wipe out of the US IT economy long term?

[drone]

I imagine a large horde of geeks are currently going through the Linux source code at the moment.

[Fisherking]

More on that latest leak, Much, much bigger than anyone thought.

http://www.livescience.com/39477-most-important-nsa-leak.html

[Husar]

Yeah, and what's also funny, Ghostery (a browser add-in) shows me 38 tracking sites and cookies when I open your link. ~;)

Also cute girls and their aunts make a lot of money by working part-time on the internet.

As for the NSA, they have to save us from evil people I guess, sometimes a man gotta do what a man gotta do.

[Fisherking]

The danger in the encryption debacle is largely to businesses and corporations. The have been known to steal from one and give to another, usually steal from the small or foreign and give to some favored firm. German high-tech and French defense industries seem to be favorite targets. But they have robed a few US companies too to give to their preferred corporations.

Nothing at all to worry about, unless you work for a firm that needs to be internationally competitive or where foreign sales at home could ruin your edge.

I suppose everything will be safe again once someone reinvents the pc with all different components and develops an operating system with encryption for it, provided they are not compromised along the way.

[Fisherking]

It just gets deeper:

White House had NSA Limits Reversed

Sep 10, 2013
UPI

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2013/09/09/Obama-White-House-had-NSA-limits-reversed/UPI-69311378710000/


Good thing Syria came along to take most of this out of the news, huh?

[Papewaio]

Who is playing the role of Praetorian guard?

The voters. And just like early Romans they can be distracted by bread and circuses, and just like Praetorians they will be bought off in the modern sense with tax cuts, pork barrel projects or more important dilemmas to engage with.

My prediction is that a standard issue Republican & Democrat mix Congress and President will get elected in the next twelve years and by then an entire generation will be born to this. The terms of terrorism will extend, the thresholds lowered, Warrantless data collection will extend to cover the war on drugs, violent crimes and then to civil court cases.

I see the latest iPhone takes your fingerprint. Apparently only stored locally on your phone, I wonder how true that statement is given the geolocation bug was used by agencies to track individuals. So now you are tagged and verified every step of the day. Really like Apple products. Next purchase is probably going to be non US. Made in the US means backdoor to all TLAs and as a foreigner all my most intimate communications are allowed to be viewed because I'm automatically a suspect. Don't worry, it seems the locals will be treated the same soon.

Might as well send postcards from the edge as at least you know anyone can read these.

[Papewaio]

Praetorians were bought off. They were the red handed chess pieces not the masters.

So I would say the special interest groups. So follow the cash and it wouldn't surprise me it is a Venn diagram of military industrial with a mix of information tech including telcos. Who site in the nexus of all these interests? NSA so they are a key asset to anyone who wants the power of knowledge.

We are essentially screwed because at the moment the powers that be are in a relatively benevolent phase. However martial law has creeped up with the broader definitions of terrorism and the legalized abilities of the various government organizations. All it would take is a real war or a truly terrible terrorist attack and it would be game over.

[Husar]

Next purchase is probably going to be non US.

What kind of computing device has no connection to the US? And even if you find some cellphone that does not have Google, MS or Apple Software on it, how likely is it that your provider will not supply all your communications to the NSA? There doesn't even appear to be a proper encryption unless someone has thought up the whole thing themselves and was not influenced by encryption techniques that were influenced by the NSA.

I saw the TV series "Person of Interest (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_Interest_(TV_series))" on TV today and while I used to think it's a funny fictional series, it seems almost like a documentary now. They even had the NSA give a company all kinds of personal information they collected from private citizens. :laugh4:

[Papewaio]

I can only vote on US policy by spending money.

So yes it will probably be a google android OS on Chinese hardware which my five eyes cooperating Telco will upload willingly to the NSA.

Hopefully Steam will more fully embrace Linux flavours... I could always potentially run games in a virtualized environment on a Linux base.

So right now there isn't alternatives. Nokia is owned by MS. RIM is Canadian so therefore part of the five eyes too.

That leaves Samsung... Which is part of an even more corporate government embedded scenario. HTC which is nice and all.

So yes as far as mobile devices are concerned we are screwed.

[Xiahou]

From Wired:
How the US Almost Killed the Internet (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2014/01/how-the-us-almost-killed-the-internet/all/)

This article leaves me disgusted. The NSA is acting as the most insidious criminal organization you can imagine- with the important distinction of having full government backing. :no:

[Husar]

From Wired:
How the US Almost Killed the Internet (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2014/01/how-the-us-almost-killed-the-internet/all/)

This article leaves me disgusted. The NSA is acting as the most insidious criminal organization you can imagine- with the important distinction of having full government backing. :no:

How naive, all Intelligence Agencies are doing this all the time and they have to to keep you secure. How can you say this is wrong when they all do it and they all cooperate and share data and none of them spy on their own citizens?

[Tellos Athenaios]

From Wired:
How the US Almost Killed the Internet (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2014/01/how-the-us-almost-killed-the-internet/all/)

This article leaves me disgusted. The NSA is acting as the most insidious criminal organization you can imagine- with the important distinction of having full government backing. :no:

That article? Why not try the Spiegel one which this talk is based on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vILAlhwUgIU