View Full Version : Another Gun Control Study
Fisherking
08-31-2013, 15:21
Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy
Text: http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf
Opinion from Columbia Public Policy Examiner: http://www.examiner.com/article/harvard-study-shows-gun-control-doesn-t-save-lives
Not what they expected to find.
Oh well. I am sure facts won’t change anyone’s minds, especially here.
ICantSpellDawg
08-31-2013, 15:52
Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy
Text: http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf
Opinion from Columbia Public Policy Examiner: http://www.examiner.com/article/harvard-study-shows-gun-control-doesn-t-save-lives
Not what they expected to find.
Oh well. I am sure facts won’t change anyone’s minds, especially here.
That is not a recent study. It is a good one, a number of years old. The more recent one commissioned by the White House is the one that is most useful to our cause, ironically.
I agree, it's the inherently violent American psyche and the blatant and celebrated inequality that make the American society violent and this can't be changed, guns or not. Americans are simply not ready for peace yet, it's the new frontier.
Or, to flip your arrogant pith on its head, your small and easily managed European pseudo-states have the luxury of treating symptoms, not causes.
Yet get a better result.
For now.
You have any visions you want to share? When will the crime rate in the US be lower than those in most European countries without any cultural shift towards less violent approaches whatsoever? When you have finally shot every last criminal? When will that be?
Oh and how is it arrogant to point out that it's the people who kill the people in the US? I thought that's kinda the point of the OP in the sense that it's certainly not the guns.
therother
08-31-2013, 21:50
Luxembourg has a small population, about half a million, i.e. this 9/100k means there were only 45 murders. It also has unusual demographics. Unsurprising given the small number, the murder rate appears to fluctuate considerably. Two years (http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2009/oct/13/homicide-rates-country-murder-data) after the study (i.e. 2004) the murder rate was 0.4/100k.
Curiously, the figure in the report is quite different from the UNODC (http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/crime/Homicide_statistics2013.xls) rate for 2002 (1.4/100k or 9).
I've just skimmed the report, but from the snippets quoted in the Columbia Public Policy Examiner it seems like a very superficial study, at least where the UK is concerned. For instance, the rise in violet crime in the UK after the handgun ban in the wake of the Dunblane shootings was likely due to other factors: the real question is whether it would have been higher, lower or the same if the ban had not been enacted.
I suspect gun ownership in the UK was relatively low even pre-Dunblane, with registered firearms most dense in rural areas, which tend to have lower violent crime rates in general. So the correlation highlighted by the Examiner is highly unlikely to be causal.
You misunderstand. Our nation is huge. You don't even know the first thing about it. I say gun violence and you probably think inner city. I say gangs and you probably think black. The PR surrounding America's problems and issues is only ever half the story. You want to solve the sky-high crime rates in this country, you have to do it by fixing inequality all over the board. That means dealing with racial issues, that means dealing class issues, that means dealing with some capitalism issues.
How does any of that oppose my point that your problem is "the blatant and celebrated inequality" from my first reply to this thread?
After all, knives are weapons of mass destruction in Europe. Changing laws only changes perspective. Your nations are small, your populations are small, and your people are accustomed to stricter limitations than we are. Band-Aid solutions work for band-aid level injuries.
Knives are only WMDs in Britain and they are special anyway, just ask them.
Your point about us being small is weird considering you also say cities have more crime because of the population density, yet your country also has more crime because it's huge. If a higher population density increases crime, then the USA should have far less crime than European countries. But that is not true, what is true is that you have a far more masculine culture that promotes violent solutions and the aforementioned inequality, which are the real problem.
You know, if you break the data down by ethnicity, you see that the US crime rates aren't that different than European countries.
....Just something to think about while you're looking down your noses at us.
You continue to misunderstand. That inequality and our culture of violence is a problem that needs solving. You won't solve it by banning guns. In fact, you'll never ban guns unless you solve it. But left-leaning politicians in America often like to propose gun control because it is an emotionally charged issue that can get them votes and spark controversy, not out of a desire to fix the problem. In America, the whole debate is a red herring.
No, you misunderstand. I didn't say you have to ban guns, I said the real problem that needs to change is your culture, basically the same thing you say. You called my argument arrogant and then repeated it yourself but we actually agree on this.
My point was lost, I guess. Population density is higher in Europe, but the nations are smaller and the administrative systems in place are far, far more effective for this sort of thing than ours ever will be. To act like we could enforce a gun ban even if it was enacted by Congress is to ignore some basic facts of our sprawling society. To fix our crime problems we have to fix our societal problems, but the guns will still be there either way.
Only in the short term and since the rural areas are not the problem anyway, it doesn't matter as much if you cannot enforce the gun ban as effectively there, right?
You know, if you break the data down by ethnicity, you see that the US crime rates aren't that different than European countries.
....Just something to think about while you're looking down your noses at us.
How? If I break an average down into several parts, the average stays the same, no? Or are you advocating that we ignore the crimes of certain ethnicities? Why would we?
America is not so different from Europe. We aren't inherently more violent, but we do live in a society that is structured differently.
It's time to stop blaming the structure of society and start to take personal responsibility and work towards changing society.
If guns aren't the problem you should name the problem and think about what can be done instead of saying nothing can be done, that's defeatist.
Our challenge is solving the violence without getting rid of the guns, because they can't be gotten rid of.
That's the same as in Europe and we figured out how to make people more peaceful. The amount of guns per capita in Europe is far higher than in some far more violent countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns_per_capita
You really don't understand how big and lawless this country can really be.
I could swear you just said it's not so different from Europe really. You also seemed to say that the violence issues are mostly an issue in cities, now you seem to say there are problems in the rural areas as well.
Goofball
09-01-2013, 22:46
One problem with the study is that it focuses only on murders and suicides. Not total gun deaths. How many accidental deaths are there in the US? Or, how about cases where there is a not guilty verdict in a shooting death, that, had one of the participants not been armed, would not have had a lethal outcome (Trayvon Martin, for example). I think the very fact that you have "stand your ground laws" which more or less allow Americans to get away with gun violence that would be considered criminal in most other nations will always fundamentally flaw any study about gun violence that only looks at the "murder" rate in the US. There are plenty of gun deaths that are not murders or suicides. Having said that, I am not totally opposed to private gun ownership. My views have been evolving considerably on this matter over the past couple of years. I can understand people being protective of their right to own a gun. What I can't understand is the sillyness about gun registration. As a nation, you sat (more or less) idly by while your rights were massively infringed upon by laws like the Patriot Act, and now polls are showing a majority of Americans don't even mind that the government is monitoring your emails. But filling out a form and submitting to a background check to buy a gun is apparently crossing the line. Ridiculous.
Papewaio
09-02-2013, 01:36
Informed choice.
Chose to have or not have guns in an informed manner. Understand that guns are an effective killing tool otherwise we would have tanks mounted with giant lances not guns.
Every action or lack of action has consequences. Best way to chose is with as much accurate information as possible.
PanzerJaeger
09-02-2013, 05:05
If guns aren't the problem you should name the problem and think about what can be done instead of saying nothing can be done, that's defeatist.
Xiahou already identified the problem, and we can't very well ship them back to Africa at this point. :shrug:
Xiahou already identified the problem, and we can't very well ship them back to Africa at this point. :shrug:
Oh that's great, now that you're past racism in the USA I guess that's also okay to say.
Fisherking
09-02-2013, 12:38
Xiahou already identified the problem, and we can't very well ship them back to Africa at this point. :shrug:
That is a bad guess.
Oh that's great, now that you're past racism in the USA I guess that's also okay to say.
Hold your horses!
It is the breakdown of the family unit and the rise of a gangster culture if we are tossing out theories. A lack of positive male role models.
This may be more prevalent among modern black males but it is not exclusive to them.
Subcultures that celebrate lawlessness and whacking ones enemies while going out in a blaze of glory.
Instilling such ideals and reinforced by peer pressure is not going to make for a peaceful crime free social network. A society were the heroes shun education, by dropping out of school to get rich selling drugs and killing off the competition (literally) is not going to reduce the crime rate.
It is more a culture of an angry tragic warrior society. Disassembling that is what is needed. It doesn’t matter what weapons are available. Take away one type and you only change their tactics, not their motivation.
How do you foster a sense of community and brotherhood between disparate groups of people who must either live together or resort to barbarism? What creates the bond, or can it be created? I have some ideas, but I'd love to hear yours.
Me too!
ICantSpellDawg
09-02-2013, 12:58
Oh that's great, now that you're past racism in the USA I guess that's also okay to say.
It is true. In the US we are allowed to say politically incorrect things that are true. As I've stated before, all of America's problems are the result of slavery. Both the importation of forced labor, the dehumanization of those people and the warped culture that has resulted from the trauma.
White subcultures are beginning to mimic the destructive nihilism of America black communities. High out of wedlock birthrates, low educational attainment, high crime rates. While many Black's are trying to get away from this poisonous lifestyle caused largely by mans inhumanity to man, too many whites are eager to take their place. Our homicide rates, even if you extract black and Hispanic high risk populations from the numbers, are still generally a bit higher than western european nations, although homogenous white populations on both sides of the Atlantic are pretty low risk. Violent crime rates for Europeans are much higher than the rates in the American white population, even higher than the rates for all Americans.. White Americans do drive the suicide numbers, but man has a night to kill himself, even though it is immoral to use the right.
I was ok with background checks (even thought they are largely pointless at this stage where everyone owns tons of guns) on all sales in exchange for some gains, but the Democrats can't be trusted to enact anything but a poison pill against gun rights. Unfortunately nobody else understands the art of compromise, its one way or the other. I have nothing against defensive shootings. In the US, people should know that it you assault someone who is alone in the middle of the night, that could be the end of you. Hands to yourself, don't threaten or menace people with violence.
I have no idea how to solve the problem, but I love guns and I love the second amendment, and my (numerous) firearms should never commit a crime, so come and take them.
Hold your horses!
It is the breakdown of the family unit and the rise of a gangster culture if we are tossing out theories. A lack of positive male role models.
This may be more prevalent among modern black males but it is not exclusive to them.
Subcultures that celebrate lawlessness and whacking ones enemies while going out in a blaze of glory.
Instilling such ideals and reinforced by peer pressure is not going to make for a peaceful crime free social network. A society were the heroes shun education, by dropping out of school to get rich selling drugs and killing off the competition (literally) is not going to reduce the crime rate.
It is more a culture of an angry tragic warrior society. Disassembling that is what is needed. It doesn’t matter what weapons are available. Take away one type and you only change their tactics, not their motivation.
That's a good post, pretty much what I said from the beginning.
The problem with PJ's post is that he seems to blame it all on the blacks and apparently insinuates the only way to solve it is to remove black people from the country. Sending the economoically downtrodden to other countries is what half the third world is trying but it doesn't seem to solve their issues so far. Unless you think the problem is coming from the colour of their skin or their racial heritage, in which case it's pretty much a racist argument.
Fisherking
09-02-2013, 15:40
No, it most certainly is not a product of skin color.
The weather gage of a violent society in the past was the number of unmarried young males there were.
With a society that now seems to shun marriage, it has not done much to correct its own ills.
The Wizard
09-02-2013, 19:04
The only thing that the article in the OP shows decisively is that the murder rate has to do with much more than the legality of firearms. It emphatically does not show that making guns freely available is A-OK, or that widespread gun ownership has nothing to do with the murder rate.
Very interesting in this regard is an interview (http://podularity.com/2012/12/10/pieter-spierenburg-on-violence-and-punishment/) Steven Pinker (whom you may know as the guy who published a very successful book which, IMHO, errs on the side of excessive liberal optimism (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Better-Angels-Our-Nature-Violence/dp/0141034645/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1378144984&sr=1-1&keywords=steven+pinker+the+better+angels+of+our+nature)) took of one of my former professors, Pieter Spierenburg. The latter's a historical crimonologist and sociologist who studies the long-term decline of violent crime since the late Middle Ages. It's interesting to note that there's been a slight increase in the rate of violent crime in Western societies since the 1960s, the first rise since the 1400s. A condition of postmodernity?
EDIT: Important, but forgot to mention that there's a long statement on the USA, at 15:00 in the interview recording.
HopAlongBunny
09-02-2013, 20:41
Just out of curiosity, how are the finding correlated to lead (Pb) levels?
http://http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline
Just out of curiosity, how are the finding correlated to lead (Pb) levels?
http://http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline
I brought that up in one of the last gun threads already, I have figured since then that high lead levels are just a result of the American psyche, which is, as most of us seem to agree, the major underlying problem. How to change the American Psyche in regards to lead levels, environmental protection and non-violent problem solving is the real question here. So far sending all black people back to Africa has been proposed and opposed.
Montmorency
09-02-2013, 23:37
I oppose reduction to 'national character'.
Strike For The South
09-03-2013, 00:39
I feel like we've finally come full circle.
The black population are not our brothers or our countrymen, they are merely a statistical anomaly, one that prevents us from being just as good as Europe. If it weren't for these people we'd just be living high on the hog.
Fan. Tas. Tic.
Goofball
09-03-2013, 00:56
Hey Strike, you drunk? Might want to edit that one, my friend.
Strike For The South
09-03-2013, 01:05
Hey Strike, you drunk? Might want to edit that one, my friend.
No I am sober. No, we should definitely just get to brass tax.
It's disgusting and lazy, the sort of analysis that goes on here. 13% of the population can just be cut and discarded like they are some burdensome anomaly and not "real" Americans. Absolute crap.
ICantSpellDawg
09-03-2013, 02:44
Clearly, black culture and the shackles of slavery are a blight on us historically and that blight continues. On the plus side, individually, many blacks have contributed greatly to our cultural development. The fact that the issue of profoundly heterogeneous population strife has been forced on us has meant that we've needed to address it head-on. This skill is greatly valuable in a globalized world if we can figure out how to do it correctly. Make lemonade out of lemons and we'll all be better for it.
Clearly, black culture and the shackles of slavery are a blight on us historically and that blight continues.
... and there's a direct correlation between the War on Drugs, the mass incarceration of black males, and the breakdown of the black family.
We've done them no favors. This is not to excuse the dysfunction of black culture in America, but they didn't get there by themselves.
Ending the War on Drugs would be the sanest thing to do, so obviously we won't do it.
Seamus Fermanagh
09-03-2013, 22:53
... and there's a direct correlation between the War on Drugs, the mass incarceration of black males, and the breakdown of the black family.
We've done them no favors. This is not to excuse the dysfunction of black culture in America, but they didn't get there by themselves.
Ending the War on Drugs would be the sanest thing to do, so obviously we won't do it.
The percentage of unwed mothers and the proliferation of single-parent families have surged across the board since 1960. It isn't the breakdown of the black family, but of the entire concept of the nuclear family. More than half of all women having children before the age of 30 are doing so without benefit of marriage.
Has the black family been torn to pieces in the wake of the Great Society -- yes. But you could make an argument that things have worsened on this issue even more among whites and hispanics, given their 1960 baseline on these issues when compared to Americans of African descent.
Panzer:
Xi' specificied "ethnicity" -- a term far more specifically linked to culture. YOU were the one who tossed out the racist jibe. Tell me, are you still hanging on to your copy of "The Protocols of Zion" or keeping your copies of Lenz and Fischer's stuff handy?
On some issues you make a good point or two, then you "balance" it out with vile excrement like that posted above. Loathsome.
ICantSpellDawg
09-04-2013, 00:13
... and there's a direct correlation between the War on Drugs, the mass incarceration of black males, and the breakdown of the black family.
We've done them no favors. This is not to excuse the dysfunction of black culture in America, but they didn't get there by themselves.
Ending the War on Drugs would be the sanest thing to do, so obviously we won't do it.
I agree. The war on drugs, the mass incarceration of black males are directly the result of soft racism and should be undone. Give me concealed carry rights, legalize all drugs and open the prison cells for all non-violent drug offenders.
a completely inoffensive name
09-04-2013, 02:25
The percentage of unwed mothers and the proliferation of single-parent families have surged across the board since 1960. It isn't the breakdown of the black family, but of the entire concept of the nuclear family. More than half of all women having children before the age of 30 are doing so without benefit of marriage.
It is quite creepy the growth of American Hikikomori (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori) along with the trends you have pointed out.
Women are enjoying a freer, more sexually liberated, economically beneficial life than ever before. Men seem to be deteriorating and disappearing before our eyes whether from draconian drug laws, or from their own declining mental health.
It's too bad the only people who talk about male issues tend to be the socially stunted neckbeards online.
PanzerJaeger
09-04-2013, 04:12
Panzer:
Xi' specificied "ethnicity" -- a term far more specifically linked to culture. YOU were the one who tossed out the racist jibe. Tell me, are you still hanging on to your copy of "The Protocols of Zion" or keeping your copies of Lenz and Fischer's stuff handy?
On some issues you make a good point or two, then you "balance" it out with vile excrement like that posted above. Loathsome.
Spare me your righteous indignation. Your problem appears to be with statistics, not me. Remove blacks and control for every other socioeconomic factor and America's quality of life metrics fall right in line with Western Europe and the advanced Commonwealth nations. It is quite tiring to read the same stale pontifications on the 'problem' with American culture, each carefully crafted to avoid the obvious. The emperor has no clothes, and black people kill a lot of black people.
I've lived on both sides of the Atlantic and I know that the America I live in, and that ~98% of Americans live in, is no more violent than Western Europe. In fact, I would wager that street crime and randomized violence is a bit lower in most parts of the states, especially in comparison to Britain. America simply has a number of clearly delineated pockets within major urban areas that are quite literally more third world than Somalia. Europe certainly has issues with Muslim immigrants, similar to those we have with Mexican immigrants to an extent, but Europe does not have to deal with a sizable failed minority group in the same way that the US does.
So instead of reaching for obscure, all encompassing, and ultimately meaningless explanations for America's 'violent culture', lets examine the violence as it actually exists, which happens to be almost exclusively within high concentrations of black people (http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/neighborhoods/crime-rates/25-most-dangerous-neighborhoods/).
How do you foster a sense of community and brotherhood between disparate groups of people who must either live together or resort to barbarism? What creates the bond, or can it be created? I have some ideas, but I'd love to hear yours.
I do not have an answer to the black problem. As part of my curriculum in high school, I had to volunteer at a local mission school serving primarily black families. I enjoyed the children and felt like I was having a positive impact on their lives so I continued on for some years after. Watching those sweet little kids that I knew as eight and nine year olds turn into thugs when they hit their teens was one of the saddest, most disappointing parts of my life. I quit after a few years of seeing my original kids growing into a dead end life of dependence and dysfunction. The culture is just too strong, and there is no support at home encouraging them to be anything other than trash.
Given the circumstances in which blacks were brought to this country, I believe few other racial/ethnic groups deserve to thrive in the US more. But you cannot force people to strive for better, you cannot make them take advantage of the benefits society puts in place to help them succeed. The stark reality I've observed in my time living and working among American blacks that isn't often written about is the widely shared satisfaction with it all. They are comfortable with the poverty, the violence, and the failure of the family structure because it is all they know at this point. It's that vicious satisfaction in chaos that limits potential and fosters a 'dream smaller' culture where driving an '86 Chevy Caprice with spinners is a symbol of status and not an embarrassment.
I don't know how to fix the problem, but I do know that blaming it all on the War on Drugs and 'soft racism' is simply perpetuating the victim culture that decimated the black community after the Civil Rights Movement and the Great Society. Asians, Irish, Catholics, Hispanics, Muslims, and all manner of other racial/ethnic groups have undergone intense discrimination in this country and prospered despite it. Only blacks and Native Americans have been allowed to indulge in a seemingly never ending, multi-generational victim status, and look where they are today. :shrug:
Crazed Rabbit
09-04-2013, 06:04
I believe Panzer errors greatly by seeing the wayward actions or crimes of some black people and acting as though they represent all black people, or that violence and poverty is the defining 'black culture'.
Does anyone talk about white people in trailer parks taking meth like candy as "white culture"? No - we simply label them white trash (thus neatly separating them from 'real' "white culture"), and nobody argues that they represent all white people.
CR
a completely inoffensive name
09-04-2013, 06:22
I believe Panzer errors greatly by seeing the wayward actions or crimes of some black people and acting as though they represent all black people, or that violence and poverty is the defining 'black culture'.
Does anyone talk about white people in trailer parks taking meth like candy as "white culture"? No - we simply label them white trash (thus neatly separating them from 'real' "white culture"), and nobody argues that they represent all white people.
CR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3PJF0YE-x4
youtube
Change it to 'Chav' and you have the 'White Underclass' word for word.
I think it might be socioeconomic related.
Fisherking
09-14-2013, 11:02
I thought I would post this here because it was supposed to be about Gun Control.
The Colorado Recall Election: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/09/12/colorado-recall-non-partisan-statement-against-voter-suppression/?intcmp=trending
It is an op-ed from fox but that aside I think it is what the election was about.
Those were Democrat districts with very high voter turnout. That doesn’t favor Republicans. So you can’t say it was a partisan issue.
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