Should I go to this political rally, as democrat?

[Kadagar_AV]

Backstory...

We have this party, SvP (Swedish peoples party)...

I don't agree with them, many of them are nazis, the rest are pretty much just stupid.

To get that over the way, I don't see myself ever voting on them.

Now this is the problem.

This election campaign, when they gave had rallys, thousands of people show up to STOP the rally from happening. It's worth saying again, these thousands of protestors are not there to demonstrate against SvP's beliefs or politics, they are there for keeping the rally from happening.

As a democrat, I think this is wrong. Just wrong. You know, Voltaire and all that:

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.


I am seriously thinking it's time to man up and actually follow this ideal.

I guess the people in the rally will be around a hundred people or so, 10.000 people are expected to try to destroy the rally.

Last time they had a rally, it got to the level of police doing cavalry shocks into the demonstrants, among other things. Yeah, this election period in Sweden much resembles a war zone.

We're basically just one step up from Ukraine.



I am a bit torn on this. I dont' support the party, but I support their right to be heard.

I would never go there to fight, I just want to show that me as a democratic citizen support these guys rights to hold a rally, as stupid as it may be.

GAH!!

Thoughts?

[rory_20_uk]

I prefer: "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."

So, helping a group of moronic thugs is not indicated any more than you have the moral duty to defend someone calling all black people monkeys on the street. In both cases there is likely harm to others so the SvP should have their "rights" attenuated.

~:smoking:

[Crandar]

Hmmm, I suspect that far, in the depths of your heart, you might... like them a bit...http://www.airline-empires.com/public/style_emoticons/default/shifty.gif

But seriously, if Voltaire knew about nazis, he would have been a staunch supporter of executing them en masse.
Counter-rallies are an excellent tool to limit their fanbase, as all bullies are afraid of violence.
Not much violence, just a little, to teach them that they are unwelcome.

[Kadagar_AV]

I prefer: "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."

So, helping a group of moronic thugs is not indicated any more than you have the moral duty to defend someone calling all black people monkeys on the street. In both cases there is likely harm to others so the SvP should have their "rights" attenuated.

~:smoking:

First of all, this rally is just where I live, so I basically just have to step out of the house I live in.


Your first quote don't match... It's 10.000 people who want to attack a hundred people having an actual political party. By your logic, I should support it as the 10.000 planes to do harm, or have harm as a consequence of their actions (IE, do nothing while thugs attack, and then let the thugs hide in the masses when police calls them out).

SvP don't talk about violence to others, like, at all. They just want Sweden to work for the Swedes. In some cases they are a bit extreme for my liking, though. Thus I wont vote for them.

Also, the police will be there trying to separate the groups. In effect, trying to protect the rally.

And that is what pisses me off, everyone should be able to have a rally, planned in advance, with open invitations... Without having extremists on the left (as in this case) trying to hurt those being there.

I don't stand up for the party, I stand up for their right to be able to be heard without being attacked physically.

[Kadagar_AV]

Hmmm, I suspect that far, in the depths of your heart, you might... like them a bit...http://www.airline-empires.com/public/style_emoticons/default/shifty.gif


Nah. I disagree with more issues than I agree with. Also, the issues I agree with are of less concern to me than the issues I don't agree with.

So nah. I don't see myself ever voting for them. At all.


But seriously, if Voltaire knew about nazis, he would have been a staunch supporter of executing them en masse.

This might be the dumbest sentence uttered in the backroom, like, ever. I could go into detail as to why, but re-think it a couple of times - and you might come up with an answer yourself.

Or do you mean that he thought as he did, except for political partys he just didn't like...




Counter-rallies are an excellent tool to limit their fanbase, as all bullies are afraid of violence.
Not much violence, just a little, to teach them that they are unwelcome.

If you don't agree with a party, don't vote for them. It's quite simple, really.

However, to fight against people being HEARD, is another democratical question, completely.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Fascists, anti-fascists... they deserve each other so I would just leave them to hash it out themselves.

As long as the authorities allow both the demonstration and counter-demonstration to take place, all is well and all are free.

[Kadagar_AV]

Fascists, anti-fascists... they deserve each other so I would just leave them to hash it out themselves.

As long as the authorities allow both the demonstration and counter-demonstration to take place, all is well and all are free.

Yeah, that would be the argument I can believe in. As long as the police effectively manage to break them up.

[Fragony]

Would you buy them a beer. People who go to political rallies or take whatever political position take theirselves too seriously imho.

[Crandar]

The ideas of nazists, like the Swedish Democrats, violate the laws and the most basic, moral principles of the humanity, so prohibiting them, even violently, from expressing their power or views is fine for me.

[Kadagar_AV]

Would you buy them a beer. People who go to political rallies or take whatever political position take theirselves too seriously imho.

Dude, I am a former ski instructor / bartender...

If you have two legs and don't offend me, I am likely to buy you a beer :)


EDIT: Probably shouldn't have force fed them pelicans though...

[HoreTore]

This isn't a political party.

These are straight-up nazis. Not some of them. All of them.

This isn't a party who is just more opposed to immigration than others. These guys are proper nazis, they go straight to genetics. The first point in their party program states clearly that they will only allow genetical swedes to reside in Sweden. No filthy adopted kids, no dirty slavs or hispanics. The second point in their program states that only swedes may have any kind of position of power in Sweden. Norwegian immigrants are apparently a big nuisance to them. Their principle program starts by asserting that human history is a history of combat. They define Sweden and Swedish by blut und boden.

This isn't a political party. These are genocidal maniacs masquerading as a political party.

Fuck 'em.

[Kadagar_AV]

I guess what I am aiming at, is that I don't want political violence where I live. Regardless of the case.


So you don't want the party out to murder newborn babies and sell them to aliens? Then don't vote for them, simple as that.

If you want to hear what a political party have to say, you should be ******* GUARANTEED not to have to meet violence going there.

[HoreTore]

I guess what I am aiming at, is that I don't want political violence where I live. Regardless of the case.


So you don't want the party out to murder newborn babies and sell them to aliens? Then don't vote for them, simple as that.

If you want to hear what a political party have to say, you should be ******* GUARANTEED not to have to meet violence going there.

For political parties, allright.

But what we're talking about here isn't a political party. We are talking about nazis trying to recruit more skinheads to beat up immigrants.

Further, we have the right to free speech here. We do not have the right to be heard.

[Hax]

As a democrat, I think this is wrong. Just wrong. You know, Voltaire and all that:

Voltaire never said that.

[Kadagar_AV]

HT, It's like you still think I give a rats behind about what you think, feel or experience.

[Kadagar_AV]

Voltaire never said that.

The Voltaire quote he said (well, albeitly in french)... Your quote of me was just in the gist of it.

[HoreTore]

HT, It's like you still think I give a rats behind about what you think, feel or experience.

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/5f/5c/a4/5f5ca46b8e1aee5b2dd32124629a2106.jpg

[Pannonian]

This isn't a political party.

These are straight-up nazis. Not some of them. All of them.

This isn't a party who is just more opposed to immigration than others. These guys are proper nazis, they go straight to genetics. The first point in their party program states clearly that they will only allow genetical swedes to reside in Sweden. No filthy adopted kids, no dirty slavs or hispanics. The second point in their program states that only swedes may have any kind of position of power in Sweden. Norwegian immigrants are apparently a big nuisance to them. Their principle program starts by asserting that human history is a history of combat. They define Sweden and Swedish by blut und boden.

This isn't a political party. These are genocidal maniacs masquerading as a political party.

Fuck 'em.

Is Kad talking up a party that would deport him if they get into power?

[HoreTore]

Is Kad talking up a party that would deport him if they get into power?

IIRC, they will allow non-Swedish Europeans to reside as second-class citizens.

But, yeah.

[Kadagar_AV]

Is Kad talking up a party that would expel him if they get into power?

I don't know about "talking up". I dislike them, but as they are a democratical party, and I am a democrat, I support their rights.

It's not about what they think, it's about their right to say it in an election campaign.

EDIT: I am certain they wont get enough votes to make it a problem for people like me.

[Pannonian]

IIRC, they will allow non-Swedish Europeans to reside as second-class citizens.

But, yeah.

Perioikoi, or helots?

[HoreTore]

Perioikoi, or helots?

Metics.

[Crandar]

they are a democratical party
Their projects don't seem particularly democratic.

Metics.
Those were in Athenes. Sweden is more like Sparta.

[HoreTore]

Those were in Athenes. Sweden is more like Sparta.

That was the point: the social status is more akin to the one given to foreigners in Athens than any of the Spartan versions.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Kad, I don't mean to attack you in any way by saying this, but would it be fair to say that you have some sort of sympathy for the ideological platform that the SvP takes?

Considering that you seem to at least flirt with racialist ideas, I can't help but wonder if you are a little bit curious about what the SvP has to say, and that the 'freedom to speech' angle is in fact just a way of justifying (probably to yourself more than anybody else) your going along and meeting with them. On another note, I wonder if perhaps you feel a bit sorry for them purely because they are the underdogs, and/or because they represent some sort of dissent against the prevailing liberal/neo-con order.

I am sorry to do all this surmising about your motivations... it's just that, in my own experience, sometimes that combination of misguided sympathy and general disenchantment with 'the establishment' can lead to you giving support to the sort of people that you know on some level you really shouldn't be supporting. You are better than these knuckle-dragging skinheads and they don't deserve your time.

Now run along... and remember to do your homework and stay away from drugs.

[Hooahguy]

For political parties, allright.

But what we're talking about here isn't a political party. We are talking about nazis trying to recruit more skinheads to beat up immigrants.

Further, we have the right to free speech here. We do not have the right to be heard.


HT, It's like you still think I give a rats behind about what you think, feel or experience.

Ah, Swedes and Norwegians fighting again.

:croc:

[Kadagar_AV]

Kad, I don't mean to attack you in any way by saying this, but would it be fair to say that you have some sort of sympathy for the ideological platform that the SvP takes?

Considering that you seem to at least flirt with racialist ideas, I can't help but wonder if you are a little bit curious about what the SvP has to say, and that the 'freedom to speech' angle is in fact just a way of justifying (probably to yourself more than anybody else) your going along and meeting with them. On another note, I wonder if perhaps you feel a bit sorry for them purely because they are the underdogs, and/or because they represent some sort of dissent against the prevailing liberal/neo-con order.

I am sorry to do all this surmising about your motivations... it's just that, in my own experience, sometimes that combination of misguided sympathy and general disenchantment with 'the establishment' can lead to you giving support to the sort of people that you know on some level you really shouldn't be supporting. You are better than these knuckle-dragging skinheads and they don't deserve your time.

Now run along... and remember to do your homework and stay away from drugs.

In all Swedish political barometers, I am 50/50 extreme right and extreme left.

I am all for a socialistic environment with high taxes and where everyone have an equal right. I am also in favour of nationalism where Swedes act for the better of Sweden.



You all must consider, that the Swedish political compass is like this big. In the US, any party would fit in with the democrats, and come off as the extreme left wing. In the UK, every party would fit in with the Labour party.


I seriously don't agree with these guys, however, I would like to listen to them as it straight outside where I live. I would also like to protect their right as thousands of people try to kill it.

That they are underdogs is of course another factor. Who wouldnt support the underdog in questions they don't care about?

My racial ideas have nothing to do with nazism, and little to do with what SVP proposes. At least that's what I THINK as I haven't heard SvP speak, I know only what leftist media tell me about them.

That's kind of being vehemently against a party as the Fox News said "it's liberal".



In essence: I am more against protesters trying to stop a political rally, than I am opposed to the idea that partys I don't agree with should be kept silent.

[Pannonian]

In all Swedish political barometers, I am 50/50 extreme right and extreme left.

I am all for a socialistic environment with high taxes and where everyone have an equal right. I am also in favour of nationalism where Swedes act for the better of Sweden.


So you're basically a combo nationalist and socialist? I'm trying to think of a political term that describes that position, but none come to mind.

[Kadagar_AV]

So you're basically a combo nationalist and socialist? I'm trying to think of a political term that describes that position, but none come to mind.

That joke was made years ago in the BR, and has been a joke for like 10 more times, that's why I didn't make it.. Shame on you.


Regardless, am I not allowed to be nationalistic? Am I now allowed to be socialistic?

How come that as soon as someone wants a country where everyone is seen as an equal, where everyone can find a job, where everyone trust the people around them... Coupled with a country that firstmost look after their own citizens... It becomes Nazi.




Remember, Sweden is right now selling out our entire wellfare system. We used to have equal schooling and health care, today it's sold out to private companies. Am I not allowed to be socialistically against that?

Sweden is letting in WAY more people than the EU recomendations.. In effect, more than one % of our population a year. And these mainly from the worlds biggest hell-holes of nations. In that light I think I'm fine to be nationalistic.



This however make me vote for the Swedish Democrats in this election. They more or less support my thoughts, they are also in the government.

These two facts together? Do they <equal> me wanting to send Jews to concentration camps? :rolleyes:

Again, shame on you Pannonian. It's EXACTLY people who think and theorize like you do, who I am vehemently against. You know absolutely nothing of the issue, but you are more than happy to jump on "the-bandwagon-of-good-people-knowing-they are-right.

IMHO, your argument is retarded.





SvP who holds this rally, I mainly don't agree with at all. I know little about them though, as the swedish media paints them as somewhere more evil than Hitler.

When I read their actual party guidelines, I see little (none) of the Jew-bashing-thingy...

So I would like to hear them, given they have a rally just outside where I live.

Shame, shame, shame on you for painting that in a nazi light. That is no way for a democracy to move forwards.

[Ironside]

That they are underdogs is of course another factor. Who wouldnt support the underdog in questions they don't care about?

My racial ideas have nothing to do with nazism, and little to do with what SVP proposes. At least that's what I THINK as I haven't heard SvP speak, I know only what leftist media tell me about them.

That's kind of being vehemently against a party as the Fox News said "it's liberal".


Eh, you could read their party program (https://www.svenskarnasparti.se/english/) (English version even! Language traitors!!!!). They do have a homepage. SD got notable facist leanings, SVP is facists, down to questioning democracy (https://www.svenskarnasparti.se/styrelseskick/) (to build something better, somehow).

Really, the cops are there. And they're allowed to have a homepage. That's enough for you to accept for them to say their word. After all, the opposition are also saying theirs.

Replace SVP with an ISIS recruitment drive. Still want to go out and defend them? I can add that they're in some ways the Swedish version of ISIS (ISIS is obsessed with their version of purity for example).
People are people, no matter were they live. What changes are the cultural manifistation.

[drone]

Smith v Collin, the Skokie case. Even idiots and bigots have a right to speak, if only to show the world their ignorance.

[Kadagar_AV]

Eh, you could read their party program (https://www.svenskarnasparti.se/english/) (English version even! Language traitors!!!!). They do have a homepage. SD got notable facist leanings, SVP is facists, down to questioning democracy (https://www.svenskarnasparti.se/styrelseskick/) (to build something better, somehow).

Really, the cops are there. And they're allowed to have a homepage. That's enough for you to accept for them to say their word. After all, the opposition are also saying theirs.

Replace SVP with an ISIS recruitment drive. Still want to go out and defend them? I can add that they're in some ways the Swedish version of ISIS (ISIS is obsessed with their version of purity for example).
People are people, no matter were they live. What changes are the cultural manifistation.



**** Yeah I would listen to an ISIS political drive, was it outside of where I lived.

I also defend their right to be heard on even terms with anyone else. What's your point?

Seems like you have a rather shady definition of "democracy".


The SvP party program is EXTREMELY up to definitions.

Sure they mightbe the evil that some of the leftist media claim.

Or they can actually defend their views in a democratic light?

I don't know? That's. Why. I. Think. It's. Right. For. People. To. Hear. Them. Out.

Specially if all it would take was to step outside of their house. IMHO the least you can do if you want to know why you are for/against something.



EDIT: Another thing that annoyed me... To call them anti-democratic - As that would be a reason to not listen to them. Or are you under the belief that a democracy only lives and thrives if people completely ignore other ideas?

Should one allow violent opposition to make one NOT listen to ideas?

Now that's a scary view of democracy if I ever heard one.

[HoreTore]

Smith v Collin, the Skokie case. Even idiots and bigots have a right to speak, if only to show the world their ignorance.

Bigots and idiots who make calls for violence, however, do not. Court case after court case have settled that. SvP Has done just that.

Further, we are not debating their right to speak. Noone is trying to cancel their rally. Instead, people are going to use their freedom of speech to clarify just how retarded these ideas are.

The extreme right have a weird version of "free speech", where it's an infringement of their right to free speech if people show up at their rally. Bloody crybabies.

That they have expunged the jew-hate from their program, which they had just a few years ago(and they are still the same people), just makes it clear that they have absolutely no intention whatsoever of telling anything other than lies.

EDIT: The jew-hate is between the lines though. Only 'genetically European people' are to live in Sweden. That means the Jews have to go. Further, you really don't have to be very creative to understand which group of people the sentence on "no non-Swede in position of power"-sentence is aimed at. It's not Norwegians, Finns or Danes.

It's nice to see that Kad is finally out of the closet as a full-blown Nazi, though. Can't say I'm very surprised.

[Ironside]

Or they can actually defend their views in a democratic light?

I don't know? That's. Why. I. Think. It's. Right. For. People. To. Hear. Them. Out.

Specially if all it would take was to step outside of their house. IMHO the least you can do if you want to know why you are for/against something.

They. Have. That. Right. Legal right that is. And police protection proves it. Worthy of listening to? Your choise. But standing with them isn't a statement of listening, but supporting.

The opposition also have the right to shun them and show that their ideas aren't worthy of a serious discussion.

The problem with a debate is that it often validates both sides. One may be weaker, but both are valid. And politician speak is often needed to be interpreted. It's not the flaws of the current way, nor is it what ideal you want to reach. It's how you reach it. Leaving that out, and you can still sound good, while hiding the real message.

[Kadagar_AV]

They. Have. That. Right. Legal right that is. And police protection proves it. Worthy of listening to? Your choise. But standing with them isn't a statement of listening, but supporting.

Listening to their speech is not in any way supporting them.

Walking with them on their political march (as many Swedish partys organise) would be showing support. Can you tell the difference?


The opposition also have the right to shun them and show that their ideas aren't worthy of a serious discussion.

Of course, I don't argue against that. I am arguing leftist activists trying to STOP them altogether, which is what's happening. Look at the Malmö rally.

I will never ever condone violence in election campaigns. Looking at what happened in Malmö, you accept violence to keep people silent and afraid to listen?


The problem with a debate is that it often validates both sides. One may be weaker, but both are valid. And politician speak is often needed to be interpreted.

This just shows the world how the ****** up people of Sweden generally thinks.

You SERIOUSLY need someone to interpret what is said?

You don't bother to hear political partys out, you just go by what interpreters (read: media) say?

What a retarded argument in the western world 2014.



It's not the flaws of the current way, nor is it what ideal you want to reach. It's how you reach it. Leaving that out, and you can still sound good, while hiding the real message.

Let people make up their own damn minds. What's so hard to get? Let people listen to what's happening at their doorstep, without being afraid of being physically injured.

[Fragony]

Having read up I got to agree with Horetore about these guys, sounds like the real thing

[Kadagar_AV]

Having read up I got to agree with Horetore about these guys, sounds like the real thing

What part about it should keep me from listening?



AGAIN: I in no way endorse their view. I just like to hear what their political stance is without anything between me and them.

I think the drone quote was spot on.

[Fragony]

What part about it should keep me from listening?



AGAIN: I in no way endorse their view. I just like to hear what their political stance is without anything between me and them.

I think the drone quote was spot on.

I understand your motivations are different, would still avoid them myself though. Wouldn't do them the favour.

[HoreTore]

Yeah, it really was of benefit to German democracy that the Nuremburg rallies went unmolested by filthy lefties.

Noone is preventing SvP from having a demonstration. It is within their rights. Likewise, noone can prevent a counter-demonstration.

Kaagar's view of democracy and free speech is that we allow Nazi rallies, but ban counter-demonstrations. What a delightfully delusional view of how free speech works.

Re the need for interpretation: Kadagar missed the obvious references to jew-bashing clouded within SvP's politico-speech, and then claims no interpretation is needed and that everyone understands exactly what they are saying. Yay.

[Fragony]

Yeah, it really was of benefit to German democracy that the Nuremburg rallies went unmolested by filthy lefties.

Noone is preventing SvP from having a demonstration. It is within their rights. Likewise, noone can prevent a counter-demonstration.

Kaagar's view of democracy and free speech is that we allow Nazi rallies, but ban counter-demonstrations. What a delightfully delusional view of how free speech works.


These counter-demonstration are almost always violent, Kads has a better balanced view on free speech I'd say.

Kads quotes Voltaire, I quote Churchil; the facists of the future will be called anti-facists.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

In no way should their rally be prevented.

Curtailing their rights to speech is only justifiable when and if they begin to create a "clear and present" danger to the community. Incitement to violence should be stopped. Statements of any creed -- even a demonstrably stupid one like this party's -- do not automatically equate that.

The 10,000 opponents should show up, completely surround the silly little we wanna be racists rally at about 15m distance, and silently -- just as the rally commences -- turn and face away. Do that twice with the Swede media watching and they will opt out of public rallys of their own choice...so as not to be humiliated.

[Kadagar_AV]

These counter-demonstration are almost always violent, Kads has a better balanced view on free speech I'd say.

Kads quotes Voltaire, I quote Churchil; the facists of the future will be called anti-facists.

That's kind of spot on. Then again, Churchill wasn't really a n00b.



In no way should their rally be prevented.

Curtailing their rights to speech is only justifiable when and if they begin to create a "clear and present" danger to the community. Incitement to violence should be stopped. Statements of any creed -- even a demonstrably stupid one like this party's -- do not automatically equate that.

The 10,000 opponents should show up, completely surround the silly little we wanna be racists rally at about 15m distance, and silently -- just as the rally commences -- turn and face away. Do that twice with the Swede media watching and they will opt out of public rallys of their own choice...so as not to be humiliated.

Yey :)

I would totally support that line of action.

As is, I more than happily feel like taking a step out of my front door to protect real democracy, instead of the democrazy Ironside and others propose.

[Kadagar_AV]

Ah, Swedes and Norwegians fighting again.

:croc:




Nah. HT as the only member here, when I had the "accident" with my hand... Was the only one to state he didn't give a ****.

Having been this long on these boards, I have learnt to accept differences. But I still see Orghas as part of my flock.

He broke that trust, and thus I simply don't care what he has to say. It's as easy as that, and have nothing to do with national borders. I think he is a bad person. Period.

*puts myself with hands behind my back to accept the mod stick about to hit me for a personal remark*

[Husar]

Sounds a lot like our NPD, which is our legit Nazi party. Although only inofficially. Why you ask?
Because being a Nazi is inherently undemocratic and if they released their true party program here it would include getting rid of democracy and such a program would not make them a democratic party even though they currently work within the democratic system.
Basically if they showed their true face very openly, they'd get banned as a party.

In Sweden that may be different, maybe you can even have a dictator party that promises to install a ruthless dictator once elected but you still have to ask yourself whether they are really a democratic party or whether that's just a farce until they get enough power to install whatever system they really want.

And the antifas, even though I'm not very fond of them either, also have the right to voice their opinions, if they happen to be a lot more people then so be it. We have the same kind of "issue" here in Germany as well and the police try to protect both demonstrations and to prevent them from meeting eachother because that ends in carnage. The only people I'm sorry for are the policement who have to stand between two groups of knuckleheads...

[Fragony]

Don't know how it is in Germany, but if the few neo's we have here, not more than 100 probably it is always them who get attacked, I don't call that voicing an opinion. Let these Hitler-fanboys wave their flags and make fun of them, it's pretty pathetic. They are pretty much harmless no matter how sick their thoughts are. The extreme-left is actually dangerous, our intelligence-service and police aren't interested in the neo-nazi's at all.

[Ironside]

Listening to their speech is not in any way supporting them.

Walking with them on their political march (as many Swedish partys organise) would be showing support. Can you tell the difference?

It would be showing interest. With the era of homepages, that's more to listen to their speech, rather than learning what they stand for. Honestly I got no idea how those speeches looks like. How do the the police differ between audience and protestors that aren't yet active in protesting?


Of course, I don't argue against that. I am arguing leftist activists trying to STOP them altogether, which is what's happening. Look at the Malmö rally.

I will never ever condone violence in election campaigns. Looking at what happened in Malmö, you accept violence to keep people silent and afraid to listen?

No, I'm not fond of troublemakers pretending to do social justice as an excuse for violence. The same people sometimes end up joining the nazi parties later on to get their violence kick that way. Both sides got people going on eachother hooligan style. Thing is, they're only a few % of the protesters. So what about the rights of the 95+% protesters?


This just shows the world how the ****** up people of Sweden generally thinks.

You SERIOUSLY need someone to interpret what is said?

You don't bother to hear political partys out, you just go by what interpreters (read: media) say?

What a retarded argument in the western world 2014.

No, I need to interpret what has been said. Politician speech is filled with things that need interpretation. SVP got 6 pages on how they want to improve the goverment and criticism of our current democracy. I can agree with them on some points, but in reality they say nothing on the how, making it empty, nice sounding rethorics.

Add that some sources can be taken at face value, while some can't. It's way preferble to have gotten hints that some messages might have way more bias than normal, since very few will go through the effort of making a very through source checking for everything. See that report that found a link between autism in black boys and vaccination, thanks to beating the data with a hammer throughly enough. That's boderline lies with a specific purpose.


Don't know how it is in Germany, but if the few neo's we have here, not more than 100 probably it is always them who get attacked, I don't call that voicing an opinion. Let these Hitler-fanboys wave their flags and make fun of them, it's pretty pathetic. They are pretty much harmless no matter how sick their thoughts are. The extreme-left is actually dangerous, our intelligence-service and police aren't interested in the neo-nazi's at all.

You sure? Political violence are about 50-50 in Sweden. The violent left is probably about the same size, but can hide better in the way larger, non-violent left.

[Fragony]

Yeah I am sure but I can't speak for Sweden, the extreme-right is non-existant here, if there are more than a hundred I would be surprised. The extreme-left lashes out at anything that doesn't suit them though, they are well organised and well funded, have former RAF members in their company and other nutjobs who only understand violence. If it's 50/50 than I understand the lefties in Scandinavia better, but they aren't any less hostile here despite a non-existing problem, they are anti-everything. I would certainly consider them the new facists, same tactics, intimidation, threats, mob-rule.

I like Kads take, agree to disagree but still protecting what's it's all about to be living in a matured society. Myself, extreme left/right, screw them all.

[Kralizec]

Yeah, it really was of benefit to German democracy that the Nuremburg rallies went unmolested by filthy lefties.

Odd example. The Weimar republic was a dysfunctional democracy and one clear sign of that was very frequent clashes between militant sympathizers of reactionary parties and communists.

Nothing wrong with counter-demonstrations per se, though. If the Swedish police do their job and ensure that these 'nazis' can hold their rally, fine.

[Beskar]

You should attend it as a Republican.

[HopAlongBunny]

Attend it, sure.
Just remember your "observer status" means nothing to the droogs who are just there for a fight.
They show up at all public gatherings from bars to rallies, and violence is what they want; make friends with the bouncers :laugh4:

[Kadagar_AV]

I decided not to go... Probably a good choice, as all there were catalogued by the police.

Only 4 policemen were injured though, and there wasn't overly much riot. So I guess we call it a good day in the democratic kingdom of Sweden, huh? :inquisitive:

[Fragony]

I decided not to go... Probably a good choice, as all there were catalogued by the police.

Only 4 policemen were injured though, and there wasn't overly much riot. So I guess we call it a good day in the democratic kingdom of Sweden, huh? :inquisitive:

Glad you are ok. I guess I don't have to ask who started rioting.

[Kadagar_AV]

Glad you are ok. I guess I don't have to ask who started rioting.

You wouldn't... But I'll specify that it was extreme leftists for others who wonder though... ****ing idiots.

I feel sorry for the police... They were attacked for "defending the nazis", whereas they probably hated being there, and just had as their job to, say, protect democracy and stuff.

I don't get why leftist protesters were so against the police separating them. What did they want to do if they reached the other demonstrants? Kill them? Assault them?

My guess is that they didn't want to sit down for a talk over a cup of tea.

This election campaign are almost of Ukranian standards thus far... Oh well, just 2 more weeks to go till the election. Hope no one gets killed.

[Fragony]

The funny thing about lefties is that they think they can do everything because they are right ;)

[Rhyfelwyr]

Out of curiosity, did you see a lot of ethnic minorities amongst the antifascists?

[Kadagar_AV]

Out of curiosity, did you see a lot of ethnic minorities amongst the antifascists?

It's kind of hard to tell... They all had hoodies up, scarves over their lower head and quite often sunglasses...

None of them were black though, from what I have seen.

30 of the worst were "professional" protesters from Denmark. The rest were just middle-class white kids AFAIK. Kind of like hooligans in football, we have these hooligan protesters.

Real men use guns ~:smoking:



The protesters only breached the police line once... But then the police showed them some real butthurt :stop:

We talk cavalry, riot shields, teargas, K9 units... You name it. After that the leftists weren't as interested and instead destroyed some private business and threatened people who weren't protesting enough.

[Fragony]

Out of curiosity, did you see a lot of ethnic minorities amongst the antifascists?

Lol, the antifa is whiter than the Ku Klux Klan. They are always angry, always violent. Bored rich kids who can afford to be a proffesional activist.

[HoreTore]

Was the only one to state he didn't give a ****.

lol, no.

You started a sympathy thread, but when I checked it, it had descended into one of your usual racist rants. When called on your BS, you attempted to use your injury as justification. As it had no relevance to the points made, it was something I didn't care about.

You then went into full emo-mode and filled up my inbox with crying and swearing.

[HoreTore]

Lol, the antifa is whiter than the Ku Klux Klan. They are always angry, always violent. Bored rich kids who can afford to be a proffesional activist.

'Bored rich kids' fill up the tourist quota. The hard core of the various anarchist organizations are mostly composed of social outcasts who ran away from home at around age 16.

A demonstration of 10.000, however, will reach far, far beyond the organizations.

[Fragony]

'Bored rich kids' fill up the tourist quota. The hard core of the various anarchist organizations are mostly composed of social outcasts who ran away from home at around age 16.

A demonstration of 10.000, however, will reach far, far beyond the organizations.

Haha do you actually believe that yourself. The hardcore antifa are recruited at universities, they come from well-off families.

[HoreTore]

Haha do you actually believe that yourself. The hardcore antifa are recruited at universities, they come from well-off families.

Having spent time with such groups, I don't believe - I know.

Freaks, punks and squatters make up the active core. They are more likely to have a history of a dad with active hands than lots of money.

[Fragony]

Having spent time with such groups, I don't believe - I know.

Freaks, punks and squatters make up the active core. They are more likely to have a history of a dad with active hands than lots of money.

Freaks punks ans squaters are the active core, agreed. But than the comming of age comes and they become lawyers, or get a job at a NGO. And you know that's true. The extreme left has no problem with having a choice, they just have too much time to be bothering with making one, it's a hobby, pretty soon they will be wearing a tie.

[HoreTore]

Freaks punks ans squaters are the active core, agreed. But than the comming of age comes and they become lawyers, or get a job at a NGO. And you know that's true. The extreme left has no problem with having a choice, they just have too much time to be bothering with making one, it's a hobby, pretty soon they will be wearing a tie.

Former anarchists have a tendency to get a degree in sociology or similar, yes. Anarachist organizations are already NGO's, and quite a few stick to that field.

They do not tend to become lawyers.

[Fragony]

Former anarchists have a tendency to get a degree in sociology or similar, yes. Anarachist organizations are already NGO's, and quite a few stick to that field.

They do not tend to become lawyers.

The tend to not be anything other than bored rich kids. Radical lefties always come from well-off families.

[HoreTore]

The tend to not be anything other than bored rich kids. Radical lefties always come from well-off families.

Patently false, sorry.

I suggest you read up on the Sex Pistols.

Also, I'm a radical leftie. Where is my well-off family?

[Beskar]

The Antifascists over here were actually working class, the rich kids snobbed away at things such as the demonstrations. What happened then is that the fascists used to take pictures of them, attempting to track down their names and addresses and post them on a website called 'Red Watch', then they used to terrorise those people by mailing them dogpoop, egging their houses, encouraging crimes such as destruction of their property, spray painting the houses, and all that fun stuff.

[Fragony]

Patently false, sorry.

I suggest you read up on the Sex Pistols.

Also, I'm a radical leftie. Where is my well-off family?

Are you going to mob-rule demonstrations wearing the typical black clothes and arafat-swahls?

[HoreTore]

Are you going to mob-rule demonstrations wearing the typical black clothes and arafat-swahls?

I have, yes. This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Norway) is my old party. This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitz_%28movement%29) is where I used to party.

My uniform has always been the plaid shirt, however.

[Fragony]

I have, yes. This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Norway) is my old party. This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitz_%28movement%29) is where I used to party.

My uniform has always been the plaid shirt, however.

Not the hardcore then.

Cute http://stopantifa.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/clc3a9ment_mc3a9ric_antifa.jpg

Antifacists lol

[HoreTore]

Not the hardcore then.

Cute http://stopantifa.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/clc3a9ment_mc3a9ric_antifa.jpg

Antifacists lol

If Blitz doesn't qualify, I'm at a loss at figuring out who you're talking about.

[Fragony]

If Blitz doesn't qualify, I'm at a loss at figuring out who you're talking about.

Well the antifa. Rediculously violent militant leftist activists. Glad you are not one of them. Easily reckognised by their black clothes and yellow flags.

[HoreTore]

Well the antifa. Rediculously violent militant leftist activists. Glad you are not one of them. Easily reckognised by their black clothes and yellow flags.

Antifa (AFA) is based at Blitz. Lovely chaps, mostly composed of freaks and commies(I'm a commie).

[Fragony]

Antifa (AFA) is based at Blitz. Lovely chaps, mostly composed of freaks and commies(I'm a commie).

I know you are a commie that's ok. But these so-called anti-facists aren't interested in any debate. They are exactly what they say they oppose. The police and secret services are a whole lot more interested in them than they are in flagwaving knuckleheads.

[HoreTore]

I know you are a commie that's ok. But these so-called anti-facists aren't interested in any debate. They are exactly what they say they oppose. The police and secret services are a whole lot more interested in them than they are in flagwaving knuckleheads.

I've had several debates with them, Frags ~;)

...And they are certainly not "100% rich white kids", as you claim.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Not the hardcore then.

Cute http://stopantifa.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/clc3a9ment_mc3a9ric_antifa.jpg

Antifacists lol

Their flag seems oddly reminiscent of the Nazi Party flag. Seriously, who among them decided to make their flag red, white and black with the logo placed in a white circles on a red background? :inquisitive:

[Beskar]

Their flag seems oddly reminiscent of the Nazi Party flag. Seriously, who among them decided to make their flag red, white and black with the logo placed in a white circles on a red background? :inquisitive:

Unfortunately, Red-Black are the typical colours of revolutionary, anarchy and all that fun stuff. Sometimes Red and Black diagonal or horizontal.

Complete similarities are silly, yes.

[Fragony]

I've had several debates with them, Frags ~;)

...And they are certainly not "100% rich white kids", as you claim.

Hey, I housed one chez Frag for a few months, good friend. We kinda disagree of course

[HoreTore]

Their flag seems oddly reminiscent of the Nazi Party flag. Seriously, who among them decided to make their flag red, white and black with the logo placed in a white circles on a red background? :inquisitive:

Anarchism pre-dates nazism by about a century.

You might want to ask why the Nazis copied the anarchist movement.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Anarchism pre-dates nazism by about a century.

You might want to ask why the Nazis copied the anarchist movement.

I know anarchists historically used the black/red diagonal flag Tiaexz mentioned, but I'm pretty sure the guys in that pic are a post-WWII group so they made a pretty idiotic design choice IMO.

[HoreTore]

I know anarchists historically used the black/red diagonal flag Tiaexz mentioned, but I'm pretty sure the guys in that pic are a post-WWII group so they made a pretty idiotic design choice IMO.

They use the same type of flag that's been in use for well over a century. I see no reason why the anarchists should change their iconography because of nazism.

It's like asking the French to change their flag if someone did something bad using the colours red, white and blue.

These flags are also used in numbers, and the diagonal line creates an effect you can't confuse with a nazi flag. Further, the antifascist movement started in the 20's, not post-ww2.

[Fragony]

Does it matter, they have ties to/sympathise- with goverments that are worse than the nazi's ever were. But ohhhh so self-rightious. Churchill was right.

[HoreTore]

Does it matter, they have ties to/sympathise- with goverments that are worse than the nazi's ever were. But ohhhh so self-rightious. Churchill was right.

....And who might that be?

[Fragony]

....And who might that be?

KGB, FARC (direct ties) former RAF, extreme leftists organisations spread all over Europe.

[HoreTore]

KGB, FARC (direct ties) former RAF, extreme leftists organisations spread all over Europe.

As I suspected - this is a mix which doesn't make much sense.

A maoist group, for example, won't have ties with the KGB. That's heresy.

[Rhyfelwyr]

They use the same type of flag that's been in use for well over a century. I see no reason why the anarchists should change their iconography because of nazism.

It's like asking the French to change their flag if someone did something bad using the colours red, white and blue.

These flags are also used in numbers, and the diagonal line creates an effect you can't confuse with a nazi flag. Further, the antifascist movement started in the 20's, not post-ww2.

If this particular flag in the picture was around before Nazism, then fair enough. But if it was made post-WWII (and I suspect it was because it looks pretty modern) then I maintain that it is an idiotic design choice. If Frags hadn't posted that and I seen those guys coming up my street, my first thought would be that they were Nazis.

[HoreTore]

If this particular flag in the picture was around before Nazism, then fair enough. But if it was made post-WWII (and I suspect it was because it looks pretty modern) then I maintain that it is an idiotic design choice. If Frags hadn't posted that and I seen those guys coming up my street, my first thought would be that they were Nazis.

The design of the flag predates nazism, yes. The red(socialism) and black(anarchism) theme has been around since anarchists and communists started working together in the 19th century.

And if you saw in the streets, you would see alternating red and black colours. I can't see how you would confuse that with nazis.

[Rhyfelwyr]

The design of the flag predates nazism, yes. The red(socialism) and black(anarchism) theme has been around since anarchists and communists started working together in the 19th century.

And if you saw in the streets, you would see alternating red and black colours. I can't see how you would confuse that with nazis.

That particular flag existed before Nazism? Really? Can you prove this?

It is not just colour, it is design. They both have black logos in a white circle centred on a red background. The only difference is they replaced a black swastika with a blag flag.

I'm sure you can see how that could be misinterpreted by the ordinary layman.

[Fragony]

If this particular flag in the picture was around before Nazism, then fair enough. But if it was made post-WWII (and I suspect it was because it looks pretty modern) then I maintain that it is an idiotic design choice. If Frags hadn't posted that and I seen those guys coming up my street, my first thought would be that they were Nazis.

Your first thought wouldn't be that far off. Meet the extreme left.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

About political colors (colours if you prefer).

wikipiece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_colour)

[HoreTore]

That particular flag existed before Nazism? Really? Can you prove this?

Knock yourself out. (https://www.google.no/search?q=spanish+republic+flag&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=59kFVK3sDYe6ygOE6IHoBQ&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=673#q=CNT+FAI+flag&tbm=isch)

Black and red diagonally, any text and/or logo in white. Standard anarchosyndicalism, been around for a century.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Knock yourself out. (https://www.google.no/search?q=spanish+republic+flag&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=59kFVK3sDYe6ygOE6IHoBQ&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=673#q=CNT+FAI+flag&tbm=isch)

Eh, I wasn't talking about that one, I was talking about the one in Frags picture, I described it very clearly...

[HoreTore]

Eh, I wasn't talking about that one, I was talking about the one in Frags picture, I described it very clearly...

....And that one is the same as the ones in the google search I gave you.

or are you suggesting that, because of nazism, the anarchist movement should sever all ties with their anarchist roots...? That's just silly.

[Fragony]

....And that one is the same as the ones in the google search I gave you.

or are you suggesting that, because of nazism, the anarchist movement should sever all ties with their anarchist roots...? That's just silly.

Anarchists go a bit longer back, but the antifa are the new facists. Simple as that. Well organised, well funded, completily uncompromising, violent. Churchill was soooooo right. He was right about the islam as well. Clever guy.

[HoreTore]

Anarchists go a bit longer back

No, they do not.

[Beskar]

... RAF, extreme leftists organisations spread all over Europe.

Now I have an amusing mental image of the communists supporting the RAF (Royal Air Force).

https://i.imgur.com/9imPzXH.jpg

Well, the RAF does a special with the talented Red Arrows putting on regular shows.

[Fragony]

No, they do not.

Depends, Europa or USA

[HoreTore]

Depends, Europa or USA

It really doesn't.

[Fragony]

It really doesn't.

It really does, halway the 19th century, 1870 or so. But the antifa isn't the same thing as the anarchists so wh are we even having this converstation.

[HoreTore]

It really does, halway the 19th century, 1870 or so. But the antifa isn't the same thing as the anarchists so wh are we even having this converstation.

The anarchist movement traces its roots back to the French revolution. It was a proper ideology before the Commune. The antifascist movement springs directly from the anarchists. There are other groups involved in the antifascist groups as well, but a clear majority are anarchists.

[Fragony]

No, they do not.

So they do.

It didn't really mature as an ideoligy untill the nineteenth century

[HoreTore]

So they do.

It didn't really mature as an ideoligy untill the nineteenth century

That's what I said, frags....

[Fragony]

That's what I said, frags....

We must be saying the same thing then