[Submod] light_spear and javelineer EDU fixes

[QuintusSertorius]

I've rolled three sets of changes together here, so apologies if you only wanted one. I've left the old files in for backup purposes. For me these haven't been savegame compatible, so if you try a later one but didn't keep the old file, you can still get it from here.

If you just want to fix infantry (secondary spear-users and javelineers), download Update 1. If you want to fix javelin cavalry as well, download Update 3. If you want to fix secondary spears, javelineers, javelin cavalry and make all cavalry faster, download Update 5. Update 6 is purely optional, it's a tweak to underarm lancer formation that should make them stick together better (and thus more impact-ful charges).

As per the previous thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?148230-Submod-light_spear-for-Thureophoroi-style-units), all secondary spear-wielders have had their weapon changed to use the light_spear attribute.

Affected units:

Uisusparos Kingetoi
Mercenary Uisusparos Kingetoi
Berukomtouga Selgoi
Gaisatoi
Ambactoi
Toutanakoi
Uassedoi
Dugunthiz Early
Dugunthiz Late
Gaizafulkan Frijato Early
Gaizafulkan Frijato Late
Jugunthiz
Toutaginoi Bodyguard
Kareus Late
Toutaginoi Early
Toutaginoi Late
Gestikapoinann
Retukenoi
Celtiberian Gaesamica
Principes Camillan
Principes Polybian
Hastati Sabelli
Hanatim Libim
Garamantes Infantry
Sabaean Elite Urban Infantry
Khamis
Thureophoroi
Misthophoroi Thureophoroi
Ioudaioi Taxeis
Illyrioi Hoplitai
Gund i Palta
Nizagan Eranshahr
Katpatuka Astibara

Furthermore, following on from much discussion about what is wrong with javelin infantry skirmishers, I've had a go at addressing the main issues with them. They've all changed to use the prec_javelin80 weapon, have had their range extended to 70m and use one of three formations, depending on their secondary weapon type. Additionally, I've tightened the formation for Euzonoi to make them more like light infantry.

This is a somewhat quick and dirty fix for something that will probably have been fixed in the next patch, but in the meantime this makes skirmishers more useful than mere garrison bodies. In the case of the Baktrian Tribesmen, they've got the "wrong" secondary weapon animation (they use axes, rather than swords), but it's necessary for them to get the best javelin-throwing animation. Otherwise I'd have had to do something more extensive than just an EDU edit.

Affected units:

Katioi
Jugunthiz
Maldais
Komatai
Iovamann
Celtiberian Gaesamica
Leves
Libyan Skirmishers
Numidian Skirmishers
Maures Infantry
Akontistai
Euzonoi
Illyrioi Peltastai
Kofyaren-i Para-uparisaina
Gund i Palta

To use, simply extract this 14465 (DO NOT DOWNLOAD THIS FILE) and install in M2TW\mods\EBII\data. Make sure you back up your original EDU first.


UPDATE 1: It's not game-breaking by any means, but the Baktrian Tribesman was using the Euzonoi animation, which was a bit of a kludge; that's now been fixed in this updated 14469. If you want to make the fix yourself (and I think it should probably be savegame compatible for anyone using the original file, because it's small), open with Notepad++, find the Kofyaren-i Para-uparisaina, look at the "soldier" line and change Euzonoi to eastern_axeman.

Note that this is NOT savegame compatible. Not only do you need a new game for the changes to take effect, it will also prevent existing saves which used the old EDU from loading.


UPDATE 2: This is a more extensive change than the previous update, I've increased the range of javelin cavalry from 45m to 60m, which should hopefully fix the issue of them behaving as the infantry skirmishers did - most of them not throwing their missiles.

Affected units:

Akus Eporedoi
Mercenary Akus Eporedoi
Esseda
Seguorina
Komnetsamoi
Londo Epatoi
Ridanz
Late Ridanz
Mezenai
Equites Scutari
Equites Caetrati
Celtiberian Bodyguard
Celtiberian Lancer
Ekualakoi
Celtiberian Skirmisher Cavalry
Equites Sabelli
Numidian Nobles
Numidian Cavalry
Maures Cavalry
Garamantes Cavalry
Hippakontistai
Illyrioi Hippeis
Harauvatish Asabara
Asiatikoi Hippakontistai
Nizakahar Ayrudzi
Indian Light Cavalry

To use, simply extract this 14531 (DO NOT DOWNLOAD THIS FILE) to the usual location. This wasn't savegame compatible for me, so could someone let me know if this is working as intended?


UPDATE 3: I've changed the weapon used by javelin cavalry to the more accurate cav_heavy_javelin40, which is six times more damaging. I'm assuming the smaller numbers in cavalry units, plus the shorter range should balance out this increased effectiveness. I also caught two units I'd missed last time around, who still had an old weapon.

Affected units:
Akus Eporedoi
Mercenary Akus Eporedoi
Esseda
Seguorina
Komnetsamoi
Londo Epatoi
Ridanz
Late Ridanz
Mezenai
Equites Scutari
Equites Caetrati
Celtiberian Bodyguard
Celtiberian Lancer
Ekualakoi
Celtiberian Skirmisher Cavalry
Equites Sabelli
Garamantes Chariot
Numidian Nobles
Numidian Cavalry
Maures Cavalry
Garamantes Cavalry
Hippakontistai
Harmata Drepanephora
Illyrioi Hippeis
Harauvatish Asabara
Asiatikoi Hippakontistai
Armoured Indian Elephant
Nizakahar Ayrudzi
Indian Light Cavalry

As always, download this 14539. Assume it's not savegame compatible, but if it is, you're in luck.


UPDATE 4: Another cumulative change, but a pretty significant one. This time I've increased all cavalry speeds. Heavy cavalry by 30% and Light, Missile and Skirmish cavalry by 60%. I'd be keen to hear back from people how it affects the dynamics of battle, and especially the utility of light cavalry for chasing down routers and otherwise making a nuisance of themselves.

Affected units:
Light, Missile or Skirmish (Speed x1.6)
Akus Eporedoi
Mercenary Akus Eporedoi
Esseda
Seguorina
Komnetsamoi
Londo Epatoi
Ridanz
Late Ridanz
Marhoreidonez Aþaloi
Aswiniai
Aswiniai Late
Getikoi Hippotoxotai
Mezenai
Equites Caetrati
Caetranann Epones
Celtiberian Lancer
Celtiberian Skirmisher Cavalry
Equites Sabelli
Numidian Nobles
Numidian Cavalry
Maures Cavalry
Garamantes Cavalry
Nabatean Lancers
Nabatean Horse Archers
Hippeis
Misthophoroi Hippeis
Xystophoroi
Hippakontistai
Baktrioi Hippotoxotai
Illyrioi Hippeis
Katpatuka Asabara
Harauvatish Asabara
Asiatikoi Hippakontistai
Asabaran-i Madaen
Asiatikoi Hippeis
Aspet Hetselazor
Nizakahar Ayrudzi
Indian Light Cavalry
Indian Lancers
Aursa Baexdzhyntae
Sauromatae Fat Aexsdzhytae
Daha Baexdzhyntae
Shivatir-i Pahlavanig
Duna Asya
Assa Barai


Heavy (Speed x1.3)
Gallic General Bodyguard
Donno Eporedoi
Marcacoi
Boii General Bodyguard
Boii Donno Eporedoi
Equites Scutari
Caetrati
Vobrim Epones
Vobrim Epones (Recruit)
Celtiberian Bodyguard
Ekualakoi
Camillan Equites
Equites Consulares
Parasim Libi-Ponnim
HaParasim HaB'hurim
Somrei HaMepaqed
Numidian General Bodyguard
Nabatean Royal Guard
Hetairoi
Hellenistic General Bodyguard
Hellenistic General Bodyguard TEMP
Early Baktrian Bodyguard
Baktrioi Hippeis
Eastern Early Bodyguard
Khuveshavagan
Ragon Sauromatae Uaezdaettae
Sauromatae Uaezdaettae
Pahlavan-i Zrehbaran
Spahbade Pahlavanig
Ysaninu Aysna
Ysaninu Aysna - Recruitable


Download this 14543 (DO NOT DOWNLOAD THIS FILE). As usual assume it isn't savegame compatible. Too fast, use Update 5 instead.


UPDATE 5: An update to cavalry speeds (and moved Edessa and Baktrioi Hippotoxotai to the heavy list). Heavy cavalry are faster by 25% and Light, Missile and Skirmish cavalry by 35%. Having tested it, I'm pretty happy with these now.

Affected units:

Light, Missile or Skirmish (Speed x1.35)
Akus Eporedoi
Mercenary Akus Eporedoi
Seguorina
Komnetsamoi
Londo Epatoi
Ridanz
Late Ridanz
Marhoreidonez Aþaloi
Aswiniai
Aswiniai Late
Getikoi Hippotoxotai
Mezenai
Equites Caetrati
Caetranann Epones
Celtiberian Lancer
Celtiberian Skirmisher Cavalry
Equites Sabelli
Numidian Nobles
Numidian Cavalry
Maures Cavalry
Garamantes Cavalry
Nabatean Lancers
Nabatean Horse Archers
Hippeis
Misthophoroi Hippeis
Xystophoroi
Hippakontistai
Illyrioi Hippeis
Katpatuka Asabara
Harauvatish Asabara
Asiatikoi Hippakontistai
Asabaran-i Madaen
Asiatikoi Hippeis
Aspet Hetselazor
Nizakahar Ayrudzi
Indian Light Cavalry
Indian Lancers
Aursa Baexdzhyntae
Sauromatae Fat Aexsdzhytae
Daha Baexdzhyntae
Shivatir-i Pahlavanig
Duna Asya
Assa Barai


Heavy (Speed x1.25)
Esseda
Gallic General Bodyguard
Donno Eporedoi
Marcacoi
Boii General Bodyguard
Boii Donno Eporedoi
Equites Scutari
Caetrati
Vobrim Epones
Vobrim Epones (Recruit)
Celtiberian Bodyguard
Ekualakoi
Camillan Equites
Equites Consulares
Parasim Libi-Ponnim
HaParasim HaB'hurim
Somrei HaMepaqed
Numidian General Bodyguard
Nabatean Royal Guard
Hetairoi
Hellenistic General Bodyguard
Hellenistic General Bodyguard TEMP
Early Baktrian Bodyguard
Baktrioi Hippeis
Baktrioi Hippotoxotai
Eastern Early Bodyguard
Khuveshavagan
Ragon Sauromatae Uaezdaettae
Sauromatae Uaezdaettae
Pahlavan-i Zrehbaran
Spahbade Pahlavanig
Ysaninu Aysna
Ysaninu Aysna - Recruitable



Download this 14569. Not savegame compatible.


UPDATE 6: I've tightened the formation of underarm lancers, which should improve their cohesion and thus the impact of their charge.

Affected units:

Celtiberian Lancer
HaParasim HaB'hurim
Somrei HaMepaqed
Nabatean Lancers
Nabatean Royal Guard
Xystophoroi
Hetairoi
Hellenistic General Bodyguard
Hellenistic General Bodyguard TEMP
Early Baktrian Bodyguard
Baktrioi Hippeis
Asabaran-i Madaen
Asiatikoi Hippeis
Eastern Early Bodyguard
Khuveshavagan
Ragon Sauromatae Uaezdaettae
Sauromatae Uaezdaettae (Recruitable)
Pahlavan-i Zrehbaran

As usual, download this 14606. Probably not savegame compatible.

[QuintusSertorius]

Apparently this should be savegame compatible, but I haven't found it thus so far. I'll give it another try and see.

EDIT: Nope, doesn't work with saves for me, so I'll leave the warning on.

[Nightshift]

Tried this after my fresh reinstall right from the beginning of a new campaign. Have to say throwing range seems pretty olympic! But even if it does look a bit unrealistic sometimes(IMO), the results are great. I had some hefty casualtys before even reaching the town walls and once I finally made it inside my troops still had those spears flying into their backs from some skirmishers that stood further away on the wall and were not involved in hand to hand combat.

Will test it further and I'm sure with some fine tuning it could just be perfect.

Thx for this one.

[QuintusSertorius]

Tried this after my fresh reinstall right from the beginning of a new campaign. Have to say throwing range seems pretty olympic! But even if it does look a bit unrealistic sometimes(IMO), the results are great. I had some hefty casualtys before even reaching the town walls and once I finally made it inside my troops still had those spears flying into their backs from some skirmishers that stood further away on the wall and were not involved in hand to hand combat.

Will test it further and I'm sure with some fine tuning it could just be perfect.

Thx for this one.

Indeed, the 70m range is an unfortunately necessary concession to the engine. Skirmishing is set at 50m (ie when an enemy gets that close, the skirmishers try to disengage), any closer and they'll always be charged before they can get out. The "realistic" ranges they had before meant the window in which they'd actually discharge their ammunition was too small, thus they'd perpetually mill around without doing anything. You also lose 10m while they run up and throw, which makes the opportunity quite narrow. Furthermore, precursor javelins are set at 70m, and given they're heavier missiles, it would be odd and rather unfair for heavy infantry to outrange dedicated skirmishers. I didn't fancy going through and reducing the range of all the precursor weapons as well, especially if that had an unintended consequence of making those troops never throw (though they don't have a skirmishing trigger).

You could probably reduce their range to 60m without affecting performance too much, but I think you'd also have to change precursor javelin range too. Also worth noting that 70m isn't that exaggerated, it's around the mark for the modern women's world records with the special flight javelin of modern competition, but some way off the 90m or so of the men's records.

[Nightshift]

Womens record! Well I guess then it's just because I was used to smaller ranges and willingly adopt to the new sight. ~:smoking:

All sexism aside-as said before I like the results: If they throw at shielded opponents frontally casualties are still pretty small, which is good. If they get an advantage like from a wall or throwing from behind they can be quite devastating. So even if they don't get into that position you have to constantly watch them and reposition your own troops accordingly. So I'd say they fullfill their role now and together with slingers and archers are worth at least one third of your army composition now (higher when defending from inside camp/ town)..

[QuintusSertorius]

Womens record! Well I guess then it's just because I was used to smaller ranges and willingly adopt to the new sight. ~:smoking:

All sexism aside-as said before I like the results: If they throw at shielded opponents frontally casualties are still pretty small, which is good. If they get an advantage like from a wall or throwing from behind they can be quite devastating. So even if they don't get into that position you have to constantly watch them and reposition your own troops accordingly. So I'd say they fullfill their role now and together with slingers and archers are worth at least one third of your army composition now (higher when defending from inside camp/ town)..

As I said, if I go back in I might think about reducing all javelin ranges, not just skirmishers in isolation, but the priority was indeed to get working skirmishers. Which they weren't before. Now they're not just garrison fodder. Plus the range means you have to pay attention to how close they are to your unarmoured/unshielded troops, since like you say getting them into such troops, or the rear of a formation can do a lot of damage.

Next thing I may start looking at is if there are any relatively simple EDU changes that can fix cavalry charges...

[QuintusSertorius]

I've increased the range of javelin cavalry, which seemed to be misbehaving like the infantry skirmishers were. It's not savegame compatible for me, could someone let me know if it's working better?

[QWE_asd]

Hi Quintus,

Thanks for the submod.

The foot skirmishers are really powerfull now;

the horse skirmishers now actually throw all of their javs, while killing no one.

It seems horse skirmishers' accuracy and damage is too low compared to other foot skirmishers or horse archers.

[QuintusSertorius]

Hi Quintus,

Thanks for the submod.

The foot skirmishers are really powerfull now;

Too powerful? Or about right? I've used them and I don't think they're overpowered - formed infantry with shields don't have much to fear unless the javelineers are behind them.


the horse skirmishers now actually throw all of their javs, while killing no one.

It seems horse skirmishers' accuracy and damage is too low compared to other foot skirmishers or horse archers.

Sounds like I need to change their weapon as well as range, I'll look into it. EDIT: Their chosen weapon has a poor accuracy of 0.25 - compared to the foot skirmisher's 0.08 (lower is better). That's likely the source of this issue, investigating solutions now.

Also wondering about altering the speed of cavalry (to make them slightly faster).

[QuintusSertorius]

I think I'm there with cavalry speeds; heavy cavalry are 25% faster and light cavalry are 35% faster. Tested and it looks about right to me.

[Shadowwalker]

First off, thank you very much! This mod has made my gameplay experience in my current Qart-Hadasht campaign very much enjoyable, because two of their main weapons (cavalry and skirmishers) really work now.
(And the javelineer animations are superb, just saying. Glad to see that these animations lead to actual javelin throwing now.)
The cavalry speed might be a bit high, perhaps, but the damage from a properly done charge feels about right.

So - thanks again. :)

[QuintusSertorius]

First off, thank you very much! This mod has made my gameplay experience in my current Qart-Hadasht campaign very much enjoyable, because two of their main weapons (cavalry and skirmishers) really work now.
(And the javelineer animations are superb, just saying. Glad to see that these animations lead to actual javelin throwing now.)
The cavalry speed might be a bit high, perhaps, but the damage from a properly done charge feels about right.

So - thanks again. :)

Qart-Hadast have access to some of the faster cavalry in the game - both their own units and Numidian and Iberian ones, so the effect may be more pronounced. That said, I am musing on whether it should be 20% and 30% instead.

[IrishHitman]

I'm entirely satisfied with the effects of this fix. Skirmishers are very useful now without being broken, and cavalry is both useful to me and dangerous to my armies in the way that it should be.

I really wish that the elite skirmisher types had been fixed in this way instead of upping their throwing attack, because I still have the problem of them getting overrun before they throw their damn javelins in the first place.

[QuintusSertorius]

I'm entirely satisfied with the effects of this fix. Skirmishers are very useful now without being broken, and cavalry is both useful to me and dangerous to my armies in the way that it should be.

I really wish that the elite skirmisher types had been fixed in this way instead of upping their throwing attack, because I still have the problem of them getting overrun before they throw their damn javelins in the first place.

The Peltastai Logades have the same weapon (prec_javelin80), though with an even longer range, as the Euzonoi. So they should be throwing them just fine.

What they have in their attributes, though, is cannot_skirmish, which disables skirmish mode. Kretikoi Peltastai and Makedones Peltastai similarly have cannot_skirmish. Though the latter aren't actually skirmishers, so that's probably intended.

[Kleitos]

Thank you for this great Improvement :2thumbsup: - i started just my Pergamon Campaing new with your Javelineer/Cavalry Submod (Update 6) and the Character Traits Hotfix, because without them i missed something.
Now the Cavalry Charges look like they should be - i thought first maybe the Spacing of only 1,5m with your Update6 is a bit too close but then again they were professional Cavalry and able to ride in close Formations.

Compared to the original Speed of the Cavalry the increase of 25% look a hint to fast maybe - but that can also be because of the comparison with the very slow one before.
As you mentioned yourself perhaps 20% increase (only have heavy and medium cavalry now) is the optimum. People here which are active experienced in Horsemanship may help out here in the Question of speed too.?

Anyway the Campaign makes much more fun now and the Battles feel real.

Thank you, :bow:
Kleitos

[QuintusSertorius]

Bit of an update. I'm now helping Ibrahim in a nearly-official capacity with the EDU (I have to prove I'm constant and reliable before I'm formally admitted to the EBII development team), and I'm working on a 2.01-compatible EDU update. So I'm hoping all those who've been testing out my versions here will still be keen to try out the next iterations as they come. We'll be using those results to factor into the EDU for the next release.

Cavalry formations are my first target to fix, many will be tighter which should improve charging.

[Kleitos]

sure we will test them out.:yes: - you're doing a good job!
..i mean, i'm also a very slow player (free time and so) and this time i will play my Pergamon Campaign with these new installed Mods/Patches a bit further. Its already the 3. Try - because of the Reform-Requirement Situation - i still have a problem with this (Ankyra doesnt spawn units outside of Ankyra) in my new Try and started a new Thread about it. And also i forgot to install in the last Try your Submod and the Trait-Hotfix.
But in a next Campaign sure - if there are new updates.

Had a larger Battle yesterday, with quite lot of Cavalry engagement, in which i got a better picture of them...but i have to say i find now that 25%/35% is too fast. ..my AI-Opponent, the Ptolies, had also much Hippakontistai which whirred around like a swarm of wasps, not like Horses. And also my heavy Cavalry seemed to be too fast.

Do you know, is it possible to change those "move_speed_mod -Parameters" for those certain, in this Campaign often appearing Units, by-oneself? - so that it will be savegame compatible with those last saves with your update6 EDU? ..i mean, you mentioned that after installing your Submod the old Saves would not load - would this apply to this situation as well?
Dont wanna destroy this 3. Pergamon Campaign now again.

Thanks,
Kleitos

[QuintusSertorius]

Theoretically, any EDU change should be savegame compatible, but I've found since 2.01 they aren't.

You can certainly change the move_speed_mod values yourself, or revert to update 3 if you don't mind changing them all and putting the formation change in for underarm lancers yourself. That might be easier than trying to reduce all of them in update 6.

[Kleitos]

well i wouldnt do all, just those Cavalry which i encounter in this Pergamon Campaign - slow as i am im sure there will be some other update (with the rate updates/patches come up since EB 2's release) until i begin another Campaign ;-)

but if i change something there, (or revert to update 3) will my Saves (done with the update 6) as you mentioned above also not load or does this problem apply only with the original 2.01 saves which do not load with any of your updated EDU?

i mean i could just try to change a bit (and make a backup of the update 6 though) and if it wont load then copy in again the backup.? ...i just dont wanna lose my new saves. maybe thats anyway a vain question - but im a total dummy in modding so i dont know for sure if such a procedure might ruin the saves.

and yes, with the formation Change in update 6 i'm really happy with.:yes:

[QuintusSertorius]

Since 2.01, I haven't been able to change the EDU without getting a CTD on using saves that had a different version of the EDU. So it's safer to treat it as not savegame compatible.

[Kleitos]

ok, thank you Quintus, i will handle it this way.

[QuintusSertorius]

I won't be updating this thread any more, instead see the Official Testing thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?148663-Official-Testing-Updated-EDU-with-all-the-unofficial-fixes-and-many-others).