View Full Version : Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January
http://www.theguardian.com/business/blog/live/2014/dec/29/greece-dimas-stavros-presidential-vote-election
So, after the government failed to elect her canditate for president, there will be elections in Greece after a month. CORAL is expected to win them, but it's impossible it will manage to form a government, without co-operating with another party. Same applies for the second party, as the winner of the elections gets a huge bonus of 50 deputies.
Poll Explanation:
1. New Democracy: Center-Right. In the begining, they anathematized the Memorandum, but when they won the last elections, they evolved into their most loyal advocates. Government: 1974-81, 1989-1993, 2004-09, 2012-2014.
2. Pan-Greek Social Movement: Despite its name, it belongs to the center. The first party that adopted the Memorandum's policies, it's also part of the current government and also a supporter of Memorandum, also not as much as New Democracy is. Government: 1981-89, 1993-2004, 2009-2014.
3. Coalition of the Radical Left: Left. In the past, it was part of the eurocommunist movement, it's now a bit more moderate and almost always present in the Parliament, but with extremely few deputies. However, since the 2011, when PASM started to collapse, it has been gradually growing to become the most popular party, at the moment. Against Memorandum, but not as persistent as it used to be.
4. Independent Greeks: Right, but a bit far, not like Lepen or the Swedish Democrats, though. A split from New Democracy, it's against Memorandum, advocating a more patriotic policy, but it has a re[utation of endorsing conspiracy theories.
5. Democratic Left: Center Left. A split from CORAL since 2010 (CORAL was tiny, back then), it is in favour of a moderate left policy of a more decisive negotiation with the EU. It used to be a part of the coalition government with (PASM and ND), from 2012 to 2013, but it left, due to the abolishment of the state's official TV channel.
6. River: Center. 1 year old party, formed around its leader, a famous and respected by many (not me, I consider him a bit slow, let's say) journalist, who is in favour of a moderate Memorandum and a technocratic government.
7. Communist Party of Greece: Communism. Unlike the respective parties of Spain or France, CPG, established since 1918, is still a supporter of the Soviet Union. Definitely against eurocommunism or revisionism, despises CORAL or the EU and advocates the abolishment of the current economic relations. Always present in the Parliament.
8. Golden Dawn: Nazism, Fascism. Neo-nazi skinheads with militia units terrorizing leftists and immigrants (killing some of them) since the fall of Junta. They were pretty weak, but they multiplied their power, since 2011, having a considerable presence in the Parliament.
9. Other parties include the Ecologists, Act (conservative party, in favour of the memorandum) or ANTLECOO (Anticapitalist and Left Co-operation for the Overthrow, radical left party), but they are not expected to get in the next Parliament.
EDIT: That's a personal favour, but could any of you re-post the thread in the Political Mudpit (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?19-Political-Mudpit) of the Total War Center?
There is already a thread about the elections (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?675715-Greece-s-Snap-elections), but it's so poorly made (something expected from a Cretan, if I may say so), that it's not going to generate any meaningful discussion.
The moderators might be convinced to merge them, instead of closing the new one. Thanks, in advance.
InsaneApache
01-02-2015, 15:09
Here's prediction. It doesn't matter who the Greeks vote for but if the newly elected government doesn't do what the EU tell them, then an 'appointed' government will be put in place by the EU.
All for the sake of stability you understand.
That's no different from how a bank will foreclose your home and let you live under a bridge if you cannot pay back the money they talked you into loaning in the first place. You can explain almost everything with a troublesome childhood, except if you owe someone powerful(/rich) money.
Here's prediction. It doesn't matter who the Greeks vote for but if the newly elected government doesn't do what the EU tell them, then an 'appointed' government will be put in place by the EU.
All for the sake of stability you understand.
The only party that it's against the European Union is the Communist Party of Greece and possibly the Golden Dawn, but I am not sure. CORAL's contradiction between his pro-EU sympathies and "revolutionary" tendancies is used by the government to undermine its reliability.
Also, don't be shy, do particpate in the poll.
Kadagar_AV
01-03-2015, 01:13
I'd like to hear more about the "New Dawn"...
They come off as raging nazis in the media here... And a quick glance seem to strengthen that look...
Would you mind explaining this partys stance, and how the general population look at it?
a completely inoffensive name
01-03-2015, 02:34
It really does not matter as long as you have neo-nazi's and Communists in the same parliament together. Democracy only works with compromise, and those are two groups that never will. Greece is screwed until the public decides to pick more responsible leadership and parties.
Kadagar_AV
01-03-2015, 02:48
It really does not matter as long as you have neo-nazi's and Communists in the same parliament together. Democracy only works with compromise, and those are two groups that never will. Greece is screwed until the public decides to pick more responsible leadership and parties.
Uh, that seems like a ill written summary of greek politics..
It all depends on... Oh, I should just shut up and have a greek explain :)
a completely inoffensive name
01-03-2015, 06:09
Uh, that seems like a ill written summary of greek politics..
It all depends on... Oh, I should just shut up and have a greek explain :)
Which part was incorrect, the part about Nazi and communist parties being elected, or the part about Greece having incompetent elected officials who created their own debt issues?
I'd like to hear more about the "New Dawn"...
They come off as raging nazis in the media here... And a quick glance seem to strengthen that look...
Would you mind explaining this partys stance, and how the general population look at it?
They really are just that. It's Golden Dawn by the way
I'd like to hear more about the "New Dawn"...
They come off as raging nazis in the media here... And a quick glance seem to strengthen that look...
Would you mind explaining this partys stance, and how the general population look at it?
As Fragony said, it's Golden Dawn and I personally view them as fascist thugs. From time to time, they organize a couple of bullying expeditions, where they beat leftists and immigrants up and sometimes they kill them.
Of course, some Greeks (mainly from Crete and generally Southern Greece) enjoy their brutal approach to our society's problems.
For example, the prime minister's main consultant was caught giving advice on the GD's second in-command on how to avoid the charges raised against him, while the Minsiter of Education and Religion praised the same member of Golden Dawn for beating Garyfallia (it means Carnation) Canelle, a CPG's deputy on a politcs TV show, because she was speaking too much.
What for
Why not? Statistical samples can always be informative, especially for the poll's creator.
It really does not matter as long as you have neo-nazi's and Communists in the same parliament together. Democracy only works with compromise, and those are two groups that never will. Greece is screwed until the public decides to pick more responsible leadership and parties.
I'm not the best person to objectively speak about the Communist Party, but even the most conservative newspapers respect it the most, although they of course despise its ideology.
The reason for this is that they regularly recognize their mistakes and are the most organized party, so their suggestions never contradict themselves.
His members organise the most well-guarded protests, a reason why anarchist groups tend to attack them more frequently than they attack the riot police, having killed a communist, once.
Kadagar_AV
01-04-2015, 16:17
Thanks Crandar, Golden Dawn seem tugish...
I heard Angela Merkel just opened up for a "Grexit", Greek exist from the Euro monetary union... Thoughts?
Thanks Crandar, Golden Dawn seem tugish...
I heard Angela Merkel just opened up for a "Grexit", Greek exist from the Euro monetary union... Thoughts?
That former stasi-imformer Merkel is full of it. She knows perfectly well that it's very unlikely that Greece will leave the eurozone. They can't be forced out by EU-law no matter that they absolutily shouldn't be in it.
I feel sorry for the ordinary Greek.
Err, as much as I know, the Party leading to win the Greek Elections is not the Communist Party or the Nazi one, but a leftist alliance.
And I hope they will keep their promises to cancelled the illegitimate debt imposed by EU, and finally implement a economic policy that works, unlike the one actually implemented, which increases the debt, increases unemployment and sold the country to foreign and national vultures.
And there is no way to oblige Greece to get out of the EU. So, only negotiations can do, so perhaps, better to negotiate the cancellation of the debt.
Kralizec
01-05-2015, 20:11
Undecided.
Under other circumstances I'd have said that CORAL / SYRIZA at least deserves a shot, if only for the reason that the two traditional parties (New Democracy and Pan-Greek Social Movement) are both responsible for decades of mismanagement that lead to...you know. Some of the criticism Greece has gotten over the years might be too harsh, but it's still my impression that the country is where it is now because of a dysfunctional political culture. For meaningful change, it might be necessary for an outsider party to take the reins for a while, even if it has an agenda that I don't particulary care for.
On the other hand, Greece can't financially support itself right now under the euro without outside help. CORAL / SYRIZA like the last time seems to be promising they'll keep Greece in the eurozone while renegotiating the existing agreements to Greece's benefit, ignoring that most foreign leaders are against the idea. It seems likely that if CORAL / SYRIZA forms a government, it won't take long for it to split between opponents of austerity and those who've come to realize that austerity was, and is, inevitable.
Austerity is not inevitable, That is a myth, and a deadly one for millions of humans.
InsaneApache
01-06-2015, 10:48
Austerity is not inevitable, That is a myth, and a deadly one for millions of humans.
Well when the Greeks gerrymandered their way into the Euro in the first place, I'd say that austerity was inevitable. They should go back to the Drachma.
Well when the Greeks gerrymandered their way into the Euro in the first place, I'd say that austerity was inevitable. They should go back to the Drachma.
Yeah, people tend to forget that the Greeks are only in this because they faked their balances since they weren't really eligible to join in the first place. Now it's everybody else's fault of course...
For meaningful change, it might be necessary for an outsider party to take the reins for a while.
Read this back 3 times for me please.
Have you lost your mind.
Kralizec
01-06-2015, 22:36
Austerity is not inevitable, That is a myth, and a deadly one for millions of humans.
Yes, it is. (http://newsthump.com/2012/05/18/greek-voters-set-to-reject-austerity-mortality-gravity/)
Greyblades
01-07-2015, 06:10
Isnt the need for austerity based on a calculation error a college kid was able to spot yet the makers didnt? (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/apr/18/uncovered-error-george-osborne-austerity)
Or are we talking about the more nebulous definition of austerity where it's just the general need to cut down on excess to weather out hard times?
Austerity doesn't work, because concept is absurd.
Firing people, creating unemployment at massive scale is just shooting the taxes revenue in the foot. A little bit like the concept that consumers and workers are different population. Hey, this is a news: the guys buying are the ones who work. So put them out of work, they stop to buy, so your taxes income go down. So you have to borrow more to the private banking system the previous administration(s) put on power... Isn't it marvelous?
And you still have people who believe against all evidences that austerity work... 7 years for Greece, and debt increased, un-employment exploded, rich became richer. Yeah...!!!
"Well when the Greeks gerrymandered their way into the Euro in the first place, I'd say that austerity was inevitable. They should go back to the Drachma." And who help them in doing this? The actual Mario Draghi, head of the European Central bank...
Austerity doesn't work, because concept is absurd.
When we wonder if austerity does or doesn't work, the first thing we need to think is for whom is it supposed to work. The members of a society rarely have common interests and an "Austere Greece" is a great example:
After the implementation of the Troika's measures, the percentages of the poor and the rich people have skyrocketed; the number of millionaires has doubled since 2008. Consequently, I believe that the austerity has been proven quite beneficial for the interests represented by the officials who implement it.
Well when the Greeks gerrymandered their way into the Euro in the first place, I'd say that austerity was inevitable. They should go back to the Drachma.
The funny thing is that the Prime-minister (Constantine Semites) and the economic advisor (John Stournaras, who was also the Minister of the State's Treasury, from 2012 to 2014) responsible for this fraud are now considered by mainstream media very successful politicians, to whom if the public has listened, Greee would not face the threat of bankruptcy.
InsaneApache
01-07-2015, 13:18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRdS8Q011os
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
01-07-2015, 19:02
Yeah, people tend to forget that the Greeks are only in this because they faked their balances since they weren't really eligible to join in the first place. Now it's everybody else's fault of course...
...because everyone knew about it.
More to the point if AS I SAID IN 2010 Greece had been helped in leaving the Euro then they would not be where they are now.
Despite what Brenus may say it is an inevitable truth that with outgoing are more than incomings belt tightening is required but the amount of belt tightening is dictated not just by the shortfall but also by the available support and the ability to offset the debt.
Greece was given one option and one option only - reduce spending until the budget balances - and this was obviously impossible.
Papewaio
01-15-2015, 03:59
The government sector is actually a key one for innovation and investment. Historically governments have increased spending when private investment has trailed off.
The problem is government involvement is anathema to certain political clicks and the austerity publication was taken up with a rallying cry. It still is even though it has been shown to be mathematically and historically unsound.
Kralizec
01-15-2015, 20:50
The government sector is actually a key one for innovation and investment. Historically governments have increased spending when private investment has trailed off.
Personally, I have no problem with anti-cyclical spending.
However a lot of people bring it up only when the economy is faring poorly. They rarely bring it up when things are going up. Because a true policy of anti-cyclical spending would also require governments to realize budget surpluses in good times, to:
A) moderate growth in the good times, to prevent a sharp "boom and bust" effect in the long run
B) ensure that you have saved for stimulus spending when the economy contracts, or that others will lend it to you because they trust you to pay them back
Austerity is unmistakenably bad for Greece (or anyone else for that matter) but it's also inevitable for the plain reason that for deficit spending you need others who are willing to lend you money.
I must say that's the first time I see another supporter of the CPG, apart from me, of course, Leet Eriksson.
Austerity is unmistakenably bad for Greece (or anyone else for that matter) but it's also inevitable for the plain reason that for deficit spending you need others who are willing to lend you money.
Honestly, I watch people wasting their money so often, that I consider austerity beneficial for curing our immaturity.
Those guys are usually called "Ellenares" (negative form of Greek) and although they are mainly Southerners or from Crete, you can meet them even in the North.
Their classical trait is listening to horribly loud music while driving and the worst of them are either Cretans or people from Laconia.
That's not random, of course, as Laconia and Crete were terribly backward regions, while Macedonia prospered under the Ottoman rule.
In fact, in Laconia, most of the people are either royalists or Golden Dawn supporters. Despical creatures, really.
Kralizec
01-15-2015, 21:54
royalists
Is that still a thing in Greece? I'm a bit surprised.
Is that still a thing in Greece? I'm a bit surprised.
In Laconia, yes it is. In the 1974 Referendum, only 30% were pro-King Constantine II, in Laconia and Messenia (from where the prime-minister and the leader of the Golden Dawn are, surprise surprise) it was 70%.
Then, the king's popularity started to gradually decline, mainly because democracy seemed to be working and the Nazi collaborators (in Greece, they were honoured, not punished, due to the Civil War. In fact, the British were the first to arm them, in order to "save" the capital from the Communist partisans) were also gradually relieving us from their presence.
The younger generations were simply too clueless to care about stuff like that, but even before the crisis, he made a popularity come back, frequently being praised by royalists.
The only good thing is that, like his father, Paul I, he's too dumb to be considered a threat. If it wasn't for Paul's wife, Frederica of Hannover, the grandchildren of the last Kaizer, the monarchy would have fallen after the death of George II the Cunning, who was restored to the throne thanks to the British.
Well this looks bad for Merkel's fourth reich. Good news for the Greeks though,
Yes, let's hope Greece will leave the Eurozone and the EU(, NATO, the UN and so on) as well, they will be so much better off on their own.
rickinator9
01-26-2015, 02:03
Yes, let them leave. They will still have to pay everything back though...
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
01-26-2015, 02:32
Yes, let's hope Greece will leave the Eurozone and the EU(, NATO, the UN and so on) as well, they will be so much better off on their own.
All Germans are Nazis, and support the Holy Roman Empire.
Can we be done with eh sillyness now?
Greece should leave the Euro, their economy can't compete within the Euro, with the Drachma they can devalue, that will put a rocket into their tourism industry this summer. Lots of Germans will exchange their Euros for Drachma and spend Greece out of the hole it's in.
Of course, it would have been better if this had been done ion 2008/9.
All Germans are Nazis, and support the Holy Roman Empire.
Can we be done with eh sillyness now?
I was replying to Fragony, you're probably right about Greece leaving the Euro, after all they shouldn't have joined the Eurozone in the first place.
I was replying to Fragony, you're probably right about Greece leaving the Euro, after all they shouldn't have joined the Eurozone in the first place.
You are right, but here, if you dare to claim that drachmas will be more beneficial for the economy than the euros, you'l; be stigmatized as a national traitor. CPG is the only party that spoke against euro, even since 2001.
The results:
CORAL is the first party, as expected, having taken 9% more votes than the second New Democracy.
The fascist eggheads are in the 3rd place (not surprised) followed by the River and its autistic leader, Theodoraces.
Next is the CPG, the only party (and CORAL, of course) that came out stronger, followed by PASM nd the Independent Greeks. The party of the ex-prime minister George Papandreou (Democratic Socialist Movement) didn't make it to the Parliament.
Democratic Left, in coalition with the Greens, was crushed, but two... picturesque parties, Point and Union of Centrists got 1.8%. Point was created by a male sex symbol and a couple of popular singers, while the Union of Centrists is a rather old party, whose leader is famous for being crazy.
According to the rumours, CORAL (with 149/300 deputees) is planning to form a coalition with the Independent Greeks. Colour me surprised.
Yes, let them leave. They will still have to pay everything back though...
Nah, let them have it so they can build things up again. Banks and investers should just take their loss, but not at the expense of the ordinary Greek.
Feel free to mug the politicians who throwed away money though.
rory_20_uk
01-27-2015, 14:52
Nah, let them have it so they can build things up again. Banks and investers should just take their loss, but not at the expense of the ordinary Greek.
Feel free to mug the politicians who throwed away money though.
The banks are mainly the ECB... which is a bank backed by the countries in the Euro and hence by the people in the countries with the Euro.
If you were in Spain / italy and there was a way of massively reducing one's debt on to others why not take it?
~:smoking:
InsaneApache
01-27-2015, 15:45
Talking of Greek debt the new government has got it's work cut out.
http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/greece
Can I remind here that a lot a debts were NOT paid by States. When the USA took Cuba from Spain, they refused to pay Cuba's debts because "they had been 'imposed upon the people of Cuba".
Germany didn't pay the WW1 reparations (invested in tanks) nor the war's reparation to... Greece, for the amount that Greece had to pay for the Nazi Occupation forces during WW2.
And don't tell it is the past, Putin's Russia paid (not much) the debts of Nicolas II.
By the same token Iraq’s debts were just delete after the fall of Saddam Hussein: The Bush cancelled Iraq's $4.1 billion debt to the United States. Zip. One signature and done. Ooops, 18 Apr 2007: 52 countries, including the Paris Club of creditor nations, have cancelled between 80 percent and 100 percent of Iraq's debts. No world collapsed.
In 1953, a huge part of German debt was cancelled, and in 1990, completely erase due to the cost of the reunification.
See, not difficult...
The ex-prime minister Anthony Samaras was the first prime-minister of the Greek history that didn't participate in the official ceremy, where the new government replaces the old one.
Succh a mature gentleman.
The banks are mainly the ECB... which is a bank backed by the countries in the Euro and hence by the people in the countries with the Euro.
If you were in Spain / italy and there was a way of massively reducing one's debt on to others why not take it?
~:smoking:
Anything that is bad for the EU is good for us, no matter what it is. As long as it's bad for the EU I am ok with eveything.
Kralizec
01-27-2015, 23:09
Can I remind here that a lot a debts were NOT paid by States. When the USA took Cuba from Spain, they refused to pay Cuba's debts because "they had been 'imposed upon the people of Cuba".
Not the best example, probably. The USA also refused to pay back loans to France after the French Revolution, under the reasoning that they had borrowed it from the French monarchy. It was an opportunistic move then, and nowadays would be totally bogus since the 'successor state' concept is generally accepted.
If your point is that countries have defaulted on debts before (or that they have been forgiven under extreme circumstances) without global catastrophe, you're right. There are also examples of defaulting countries ending up in deep trouble because of it.
Seamus Fermanagh
01-28-2015, 00:25
So what will the new Greek government do?
a) pay the debts
b) ask for reductions but structure payments of the remainder
c) drop the Euro, inflate the drachma and Weimar their way out
d) repudiate the debt and expect everyone to cope
What say you?
Easy: Neutralisation of the Debt: Pay on let's say, 60 years, or E.B.C. buy the debts back (as USA model) or "burn" it. Remember that Greek debt is negligible comparing the EU GDP.
If this is not accepted, as there is no mechanism to expel Greek from the Euro/EU, Greece can just create a Bank of Investment to which the EBC can't refuse (loan at 0.5 %), and do the "burning" of the Debt.
If fact, after few research, it is amazing how many solutions are possible. Of course, that means to stop paying interest to the financial vultures, Pension Funds, Germany and France.:yes:
a completely inoffensive name
01-28-2015, 09:16
They will fuck it up, I am calling it now.
Fisherking
01-28-2015, 12:38
Well, the PM said he will not default but wants to negotiate.
Also what he wants:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31003070
Very good, now we just have to elect the left in Germany and then we can begin to talk about Russian EU membership.
Very good, now we just have to elect the left in Germany and then we can begin to talk about Russian EU membership.
Die Linke ist less moderate than CORAL. Just before the elections, they informed the Greek party that they are worried about the recent stance of CORAL of abandoning basic leftist ideals.
Very good, now we just have to elect the left in Germany and then we can begin to talk about Russian EU membership.
Dream on, the hardest hits have yet to come for europhiles. UKIP is probably going to br the biggest party in the UK, the FN in France, and the PVV in the Netherlands. A lot of people are fed up with the EU, also in Germany.
Sir Moody
01-28-2015, 14:17
Dream on, the hardest hits have yet to come for europhiles. UKIP is probably going to br the biggest party in the UK, the FN in France, and the PVV in the Netherlands. A lot of people are fed up with the EU, also in Germany.
Sometimes I wonder if you are disconnected to reality...
UKIP have NO chance of getting a majority in the UK - our first past the post system effectively insures that Labour and the Conservatives will always be no1 and no2 - the threat of UKIP is they will edge out the Conservative vote reducing the Conservative majority - at absolute best they will pick up about the same number of seats as the Liberal Democrats currently hold (57) and more likely they will take around 20 (which is also where the Liberals will likely end up)
Furunculus
01-28-2015, 14:30
i doubt more than five, and probably just two.
Sometimes I wonder if you are disconnected to reality...
UKIP have NO chance of getting a majority in the UK - our first past the post system effectively insures that Labour and the Conservatives will always be no1 and no2 - the threat of UKIP is they will edge out the Conservative vote reducing the Conservative majority - at absolute best they will pick up about the same number of seats as the Liberal Democrats currently hold (57) and more likely they will take around 20 (which is also where the Liberals will likely end up)
oh just scratch them of my wishlist than, just because they exist they will influence policy anyway. Here in the Neds nobody is going to form a government with the PVV, but that doesn't they will have no influence because it's always stupid to neglect popular support. Same with the FN in France, not that I like them, but anything that is against eurocrats, I like anyway. Patience is a great virtue, and eurocrats need a miracle. Eurosceptics only patience.
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