POTUS Election thread

[Strike For The South]

Were going to have a nuclear winter before I have sex on airplane. The world is fundamentally unfair.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Were going to have a nuclear winter before I have sex on airplane. The world is fundamentally unfair.

9999! You should have saved THIS for your 10k....

[Greyblades]

They really have a gap in leadership with something resembling national stature and of the prime age. Corey Booker in a few years perhaps. Or maybe the other half of the Obamas -- she certainly could hold even with Hillary's performance for sure. So, YES, ACIN, you do have a shot.

I would hope thats an understatment. The dems are screwed if the best shot is someone who can only hold even with hillary.

[Husar]

The Dems still have:

Bernie Sanders
Elizabeth Warren
Tammy Duckworth
Tulsi Gabbard

And the aforementioned Cory Booker.
For Sanders and Warren I can say they have the heart in the right place, about the others I have no idea.

Going by optical value, Kamala Harris could be thrown into the ring. :sweatdrop:

Either way the Democrats have four years while Trump does his thing and who knows whether they will need a star at the end, maybe anyone will do. :clown:

[Hooahguy]

Tulsi Gabbard

Ehhh, if the rumors of her cozying up to Trump are true, this is doubtful. I cant see her reaching the stardom of Sanders, Warren, or even Duckworth, who I think is a fast rising star.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The Dems still have:

Bernie Sanders
Elizabeth Warren
Tammy Duckworth
Tulsi Gabbard

And the aforementioned Cory Booker.
For Sanders and Warren I can say they have the heart in the right place, about the others I have no idea.

Going by optical value, Kamala Harris could be thrown into the ring. :sweatdrop:

Either way the Democrats have four years while Trump does his thing and who knows whether they will need a star at the end, maybe anyone will do. :clown:

Sanders is aging, and may or may not be physically up to the challenge in 4 years. He and Warren are classic big govt entitlement pols -- they truly do represent the desires/goals of most the DEM rank and file, but would have real problems appealing to middle America. Though I acknowledge that Sanders might have done enough better to edge out Trump had he been the one with the nomination. But he won't edge out an incumbent Trump unless Trump has self destructed (which cannot, of course, be completely discounted despite the best efforts of Spicer and Conway).

Duckworth may or may not be eligible as a derived citizen ( I am not sure if Dad's UN work meets the criteria). She is of the right age and has a solid pedigree though. You may have identified a good Dem choice. Gabbard may end up being a strong choice for the Dems, but that would have to be at least 4 and more likely 8 years down the road. Not enough gravitas at present -- especially since she comes from a "sure thing" Dem state already that does NOT have a lot of electoral college clout.

As to Harris, she is the right age, look, and comes from a sure thing Dem state with a LOT of electoral college clout. Only thing against her is limited executive track record. Of course, I said that of Obama as well....

[Greyblades]

Which might be a point against her.

The dem base may have fond memories of obama in 4 years, middle america is somewhat less enamored with the 8 years of can-kicking. Another "old hopey-changey" (I miss the Colbert character) could backfire nearly as badly as clinton.

[Husar]

I don't think Middle Americans are allowed to vote in the US...

We shall first have to see whether the middle US candidate can actually deliver on his promises or whether he is just "ye olde hopey-changey, GOP edition".
IMO both parties are mostly trying to ignore reality/progress, including Sanders and Warren if they care mostly about saving jobs. I'd rather see us distribute the fruits of robot labor given that I always thought work was a necessity of life every human would rather do without. People who like certain work can do it as a hobby either way. I'm not entirely sure why people would crave getting repetitive and potentially dangerous jobs at a conveyor belt back if there were a viable alternative of not needing a job at all. It's actually not much better/healthier to sit and stare at a screen all day either... The only things that come to mind are strange cultural developments and pure ideology.

All the actually modern ideas in this regard seem to come from Central Europe as far as I'm aware. Although they have not entirely reached mainstream politics here either, we're also under heavy influence of calvinist-capitalist praise of hard work (and yet look forward to retirement all the time...).

[Idaho]

This latest story is surely taking the piss? Who leaked this?

[Greyblades]

Buzzfeed is looking to follow gawker to its sticky end in the u turn of american legal plumbing.

Im crap at toilet puns,

[Idaho]

There seems to be a stream of these stories.

[Sarmatian]

Gets clicks

POTUS, reality TV star and sex scandal. Goes together like movies and snacks.

[Husar]

Not sure what exactly you're talking about, but I did have an observation that seems to have gone somewhat unnoticed:

Trump and his supporters keep talking about "bringing back the jobs" as though Mexicans somehow stole them, but the entire underlying tone implies that people in Mexico and the US cannot both have jobs. So what happened to the old trope of Capitalism that everyone can be better off under it? Why can't Capitalism just create new jobs in the US without "taking them away" from the Mexicans? Or is it that the wealth of the USA depends on the poverty of Mexico after all? :inquisitive:

[Idaho]

Divide and rule. Blaming the poor for their poverty. Blaming crime on black people. Blaming terrorism on Muslims. This is what we will get for 4 years.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Divide and rule. Blaming the poor for their poverty. Blaming crime on black people. Blaming terrorism on Muslims. This is what we will get for 4 years.

He's blaming poverty on over-regulation and bad free trade deals; he's blaming crime on haphazard law enforcement and overly regulated policing; and terrorism on Muslim extremists. It remains to be seen how much of his rhetoric will translate into substantive policy. I am pretty sure that he is convinced that he is among the best "deal makers" on the planet...proving he has the ego for the job. Hope he can pull off a 10th of what his self-hypnotic hype claims. However, given my doubts, I didn't vote for him.

[Crandar]

Liberal Democrats are not hawks, obsessed with military adventures in exotic lands and the global majesty of the United States of America. Nooo, they are affectionate people of peace and prosperity.
Liberal Democrats do not care about christian ethics and sexual preferences. Nooo, they are tolerant people, uninterested in the bedroom affairs of their neighbor.

And yet, here we are... Crying about Manchurian candidates and Russian orgies.
Yeah, that's right, what humiliated Hillary was Putler, who is still a fascist by the way, and lack of morals, definitely not the fact that we never really recovered from 2008, with the unemployment being reduced by half-paid temporary jobs.

[Husar]

I agree somewhat that the whole thing about Putin "hacking" the election and Trump's alleged sex practices seem way over the top.
The whole hacking thing sounds a lot like manipulating the election in an evil way when it was more about revealing the truth. Of course it is very biased since nothing was revealed about Trump (e.g. tax returns), but the implication seems to imply something more sinister.
And yes, for the faction that claims to be about sexual liberation etc., making fun of someone's sex preferences is quite hypocritical.

That still doesn't explain though why Mexicans have to lose jobs for Americans to gain them if Capitalism can supposedly provide wealth for everyone...

[Hooahguy]

I too agree that the whole "Putin hacked the election" and "Trump is a Russian puppet" is a tad overblown. That's not to say that Russian influence isn't a factor to his decision making. I think part of his unusual friendliness to Russia is mostly due to his business interests and holdings, not a sinister Kremlin pulling the strings. Also the way he views relationships between nations.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I too agree that the whole "Putin hacked the election" and "Trump is a Russian puppet" is a tad overblown. That's not to say that Russian influence isn't a factor to his decision making. I think part of his unusual friendliness to Russia is mostly due to his business interests and holdings, not a sinister Kremlin pulling the strings. Also the way he views relationships between nations.

Notably, several of Trump's picks, including his proposed CIA chief, are being very Hawkish about Russia before the Senate. As Trump gets more and more information about what Russia did I imagine he'll turn cold to an extent. Aside from anything else I would imagine he will be insulted that Putin thought he needed help to win.

[Husar]

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2017/01/liberals-embrace-anti-trump-trumpism-170105151556455.html


The resemblance isn't merely stylistic. When Olbermann insists that a "bloodless coup" has taken place, with conspirators in the political elite jeopardising America's very existence, he’s arguing against Trump with rhetoric identical to that used by Infowars and Breitbart.com to make the case for Trump.

The response to the intelligence dossier released by Buzzfeed illustrates the same phenomenon. The claims by a former spy remain entirely unverified, in a document commissioned by political opponents and riddled with obvious errors. Editor Ben Smith himself acknowledges that "there is serious reason to doubt the allegations".

Nevertheless, Buzzfeed justifies publication by insisting that Americans should "make up their own minds" - which, for better or for worse, is precisely the rationale that Infowars gives when it covers FEMA camps and chemtrails.

They should remember though, that InfoWars is just a Comedy Show people get their news from, like the Daily Show. :clown:

Haha, I'm reading on and it becomes increasingly obvious [warning: fake conclusion] that the article was inspired by my previous post:


In reality there's precisely zero evidence of Russian ballot tampering. Nevertheless, the truthy notion that Vladimir Putin "hacked the vote" continues to circulate throughout both mainstream and social media, in a curious liberal echo of the "fake news" widely blamed for Trump's victory.
[...]
More importantly, the Podesta files aren't fakes or forgeries. The argument that the publication of genuine emails cost the Democrats the White House thus amounts to an assertion that Clinton lost because the voters learned too much about her.

To put it another way, those claiming that Russia stole the election are arguing that the Democrats were robbed because they were prevented from concealing the difference between what their candidate said and what she truly believed.

Trevor Noah said (paraphrasing here) on the Daily Show that this is just Trump getting a dose of his own medicine, the problem I have with this is that two wrongs don't make a right. There are plenty of valid concerns about Trump, the Democrats going into hyperventilation fake news mode doesn't solve any of them.

[rory_20_uk]

He is going to do what he does best - spent 4 years on a state-sponsored ego trip where he celebrates small wins where he has wrestled with some company or country and dismisses everything else - including the vast amount of damage he does on to his minions.

He might get another term - George W did, after all. But already it appears everyone he's picked holds widely differing views to him, so he'll get quickly bored when he can't shout or demand they do things and concentrate on doing what he does best - acting like a used car salesman.

~:smoking:

[HopAlongBunny]

A little problem with getting rid of NAFTA.
It would cost the U.S. jobs, money and damage the auto industry:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/manufacturing-jobs-trump-mexico-1.3932234

Gee, it seems Trump's campaign was not all that well thought out... maybe he should have hired Hillary to do the research...:laugh4:

[edyzmedieval]

Repealing the Affordable Care Act will cause some serious shockwaves throughout the United States. While the Republicans will enact a legislation package of their own to counter the ACA, the impact on millions of people who have signed up for the ACA will be huge.

[Greyblades]

I wonder of the impact on those ACA forced to buy unwanted insurance on pain on fines will offset it.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/manufacturing-jobs-trump-mexico-1.3932234


Compelling U.S. automakers to shut down or at least stop expanding their Mexican plants won't create more auto-making jobs in the U.S., CAR concludes. A likelier outcome would be that Mexico produces just as many cars as it ever did — they just won't end up coming to the U.S.

I dont get that article, it implies automakers dont care about losing a major market they are dependant on because there are other markets, but doesnt explain why the other markets would make up the slack in profits or demand. I mean it seems like they are implying that mexican car factories were only allowing the sale of thier cars in the US and that the south americans or european markets just need the chance to start buying mexican automobiles in quantities that will offset the american loss.


"Mexico has free trade agreements with 45 countries other than the United States," CAR said. "Mexico has plenty of choices for sources of its manufacturing inputs."
What, are mexican car factories just run by tunnel visioned idiots that havent even considerd the potential profits of letting the rest of the world buy cars until trump threatened nafta?

[HopAlongBunny]

What, are mexican car factories just run by tunnel visioned idiots that havent even considerd the potential profits of letting the rest of the world buy cars until trump threatened nafta?

Probably :p
Like the Canadian oil industry, as long as the U.S. market is taking all we can produce, finding other markets was just so much babble.
Now that the U.S. can do just fine w/o our oil, gov't and industry are getting down to the hard work of finding ways to get to the world market.

[Idaho]

The best piece I've read on Trump:


Donald Trump is 'gaslighting' all of us

Is Donald Trump really a "big fan" of the intelligence community, as he claimed on Twitter, or did he disparage intelligence professionals when he repeatedly referred to them and their work in sneer quotes about "Intelligence" briefings and the "so-called 'Russian hacking'"?

Did Trump mock a disabled reporter, or did your eyes, and the Hollywood elite make you think he did?

Did he convince Ford not to move a car plant to Mexico, saving American jobs, or was it all a fabrication for publicity?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/01/10/opinions/donald-trump-is-gaslighting-america-ghitis/index.html?client=ms-android-google

[Greyblades]

Did Trump mock a disabled reporter, or did your eyes, and the Hollywood elite make you think he did?

Did he convince Ford not to move a car plant to Mexico, saving American jobs, or was it all a fabrication for publicity?

Did he win the election with a historically narrow victory, or did he score a "landslide"?

"Thanks to us noone can say with certainty anymore." - CNN

Fox is having a field day.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mBKVCNEW1o

[Husar]

Shameful display.

[Greyblades]

Agreed, CNN has really soiled the bed with this one.

[Husar]

Agreed, CNN has really soiled the bed with this one.

What did they do other than get ignored and not give Cavuto a hug?

[HopAlongBunny]

Blind Trusts are for pussies. The president cannot be in a conflict of interest so there:

http://wonkette.com/610427/trump-peeing-on-ethics-office-like-calvin-pees-on-chevys-andor-fords

Nice little Ethics Committee ya got there...shame if anything were to happen to it :laugh4:

[Greyblades]

What did they do other than get ignored and not give Cavuto a hug?

Being the only news network to present goldenshowergate as probable.

Not much more to say there really, CNN has become as credible as buzzfeed and the wonkette.

[Husar]

Being the only news network to present goldenshowergate as probable.

That may be bad but does not explain the whining in the video you posted.

[Greyblades]

Is gloating and whining interchangeable now?

Hm, anyway CNN's lack of credibility recently left them open to trump getting away with dismissing them in favour of other news outlets, which is exactly what happened to Fox with obama 8 years ago.

CNN not being the most gracious opponant in political rivalry had been exceptionally unsympathetic for the last 8 years and now CNN's main programs are dominated by thier anchors whining on live television, about suddenly being in the same exact position, Fox gets to throw it in thier face.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Is gloating and whining interchangeable now?

Hm, anyway CNN's lack of credibility recently left them open to trump getting away with dismissing them in favour of other news outlets, which is exactly what happened to Fox with obama 8 years ago.

CNN not being the most gracious opponant in political rivalry had been exceptionally unsympathetic for the last 8 years and now CNN's main programs are dominated by thier anchors whining on live television, about suddenly being in the same exact position, Fox gets to throw it in thier face.


While true on one level, 'blades, that hardly speaks very well of the entire profession...

[Greyblades]

Right now the entire profession isnt worth being spoken well of.

[Hooahguy]

Obama must be trying to poke at Trump or something because he commuted Chelsea/Bradley Manning's sentence. I agree with Obama on a lot of things, but this is not one of them.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Obama must be trying to poke at Trump or something because he commuted Chelsea/Bradley Manning's sentence. I agree with Obama on a lot of things, but this is not one of them.

Huh - was reading about how she was "at the top of his list" for a pardon/commuting of sentence.

I agree though - sentence should have been life/execution.

[Greyblades]

Can pardons be overturned?

[Hooahguy]

What I dont get is that Obama has gone after more whistleblowers than the other presidents combined, yet he commutes the sentence of this fool.

EDIT: This (https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/819630102787059713)might explain why:


Wikileaks:
If Obama grants Manning clemency Assange will agree to US extradition despite clear unconstitutionality of DoJ case

[Risasi]

The platinum blonde has an axe to grind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_(Australian_New_Age_group)

Julian Assange is Frankenstein's monster created in the crucible of the MKULTRA military-industrial complex of the Ameri/UK deep state. Now the monster has turned on its creator.

The game is a-foot. It should be quite interesting to see how the PEOTUS handles Assange...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What I dont get is that Obama has gone after more whistleblowers than the other presidents combined, yet he commutes the sentence of this fool.

EDIT: This (https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/819630102787059713)might explain why:

Is that so Assange can avoid the rape charge waiting in Sweden?

I'd laugh so hard if after all this fuss the Americans hand him to the Swedes first.

It's what I'd do, properly blacken his name.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Can pardons be overturned?

No. It is one of the few executive powers explicitly enshrined in the Constitution. A President could be impeached if Congress thought the pardon egregious enough, but the Presidential pardon is the ultimate "carte blanche." The Supreme Court has unwaveringly supported a broad understanding of the power of executive clemency throughout the history of the Republic.

[HopAlongBunny]

Trump is following through on his commitment to "Hire the best":

http://wonkette.com/610561/betsy-devoss-confirmation-hearing-was-total-sht-show-lets-laugh-at-it

Short version: she has no experience running a bank, a loan program, and her education experience consists of gutting public education in favour of charter schools.
No problem, she and her family are very generous to the Republican Party...Trump's best and brightest have huuuge bank accounts so they must be good right? :laugh4:

A little more detail from NYTimes :

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/17/us/politics/betsy-devos-education-senate-hearing.html?_r=0

[HopAlongBunny]

Tom Price had a little trouble with a yes/no question from Warren:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/01/elizabeth-warren-tom-price-medicare-medicaid

Given that many Republicans have been dying to gut Medicare/Medicaid and this is their chance, the lack of an answer speaks volumes :p

[Idaho]

Why the hate for Manning? People being brave enough to expose governments dirty secrets are heroes.

Right wingers are weird. They trust corporations and billionaires more than governments... But then suddenly rush to support governments when their is a whiff of military.

[Crandar]

Obama must be trying to poke at Trump or something because he commuted Chelsea/Bradley Manning's sentence. I agree with Obama on a lot of things, but this is not one of them.
Why not? Manning was a hero of transparency, I genuinely don't understand why anyone would be against him.

[rory_20_uk]

Why the hate for Manning? People being brave enough to expose governments dirty secrets are heroes.

Right wingers are weird. They trust corporations and billionaires more than governments... But then suddenly rush to support governments when their is a whiff of military.

Left wingers are weird. They trust governments more than corporations and billionaires, but suddenly rush for billionaire support when there is a whiff of environmental damage.

~:smoking:

[Greyblades]

Why not? Manning was a hero of transparency, I genuinely don't understand why anyone would be against him.

Manning was unstable and it was pure luck that the mass of data he leaked contained evidence of government coverup. His spray and pray approach to whistleblowing with no regard for whether the contents were in the public interest caused massive ripples in the international community, undermined the US's diplomatic efforts severely, endangered many operatives and ended up revealing several of the scandals that kicked off the now failed arab spring.

Personally I have to wonder why Obama pardoned manning but not snowden, who had a much greater appreciation for public interest.

[Crandar]

Yes, poor little spies being exposed. So, if I got it right, it's a matter of perspective. Alright, I accept that we have different priorities, but imo:
Documentation of human crimes-transparency>patriotism-foreign policy

[Greyblades]

He neglected to vet the documents he leaked for information that compromised us interests without being in the public interest to be revealed.

What the government accuses snowden of manning actually did to a much greater degree, yet he is pardoned.

[Husar]

He neglected to vet the documents he leaked for information that compromised us interests without being in the public interest to be revealed.

That may greatly depend on how you define "public". ~;)


What the government accuses snowden of manning actually did to a much greater degree, yet he is pardoned.

I think that's a valid point, Snowden gave his documents to trustworthy German journalists so they could filter the documents to make sure nothing dangerous would be revealed. Wikileaks may also filter them somewhat, but one can't exactly say they have a very trustworthy reputation.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

This is wandering further afield from the transition. I hope that, at Noon Eastern tomorrow, this thread will be concluded so that we can take up divers other issues in more specific threads.

[Pannonian]

This is wandering further afield from the transition. I hope that, at Noon Eastern tomorrow, this thread will be concluded so that we can take up divers other issues (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bends) in more specific threads.

Other divers issue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bends).

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Other divers issue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bends).
Smart-arse. :smartass:

[Hooahguy]

Why the hate for Manning? People being brave enough to expose governments dirty secrets are heroes.

Right wingers are weird. They trust corporations and billionaires more than governments... But then suddenly rush to support governments when their is a whiff of military.


Why not? Manning was a hero of transparency, I genuinely don't understand why anyone would be against him.

As mentioned before, its the haphazard way it was done. Snowden (who I do think is a hero) carefully vetted his information to ensure that only relevant information was put out. And this isnt just an issue with Manning, its an issue with Wikileaks in general. When the DNC leaks happened they also released a bunch of personal info like credit card numbers and such. That is very irresponsible in my eyes (Snowden even chimed in to say so as well). I do not think Manning is a hero, I think that she leaked information out of spite and not out of some higher purpose.

Also, I am of the opinion that certain aspects of government like diplomatic cables, should remain secret. Diplomacy is something which is really tricky and should not be all in the open. Like imagine if the diplomatic cables around the Iran deal were leaked. One would wonder if the deal would have been concluded if people knew what was being said behind closed doors.

That being said, I will close this thread when Trump becomes president (tomorrow). We can split up the current discussions into their own threads but this one about the election and subsequent transition has run its course.

[Kralizec]

Other divers issue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bends).

Great album :yes:

[Idaho]

The actions and secrets of state apparatus is not sacred to me. It doesn't bother me that the state and its servants are inconvenienced. I certainly don't think that the state has a right to punish people who inconvenience it.

[Hooahguy]

It could be more than simply an inconvenience. Imagine if, to use the example I used earlier, during the talks for the Iran deal a diplomat made a rude comment about the Iranian delegation with the understanding that it would be only between him and another diplomat. If the comment was leaked and the Iranians left the table because of it, do you not think that is more than a simple "inconvenience"? Sure, the diplomat should not have made the comment, but that is human nature for you. Following that point, do you believe a state should keep any secrets from its citizens?

[Crandar]

Diplomatic negotiations do not fail because of some rude comments, imo.
Anyway I see your point, but I believe that the government shouldn't keep any secrets from its people.
Dishonesty should always be condemned and I believe that society is mature enough to know where its interests lie without the leadership paternalistically withholding information from the stupid masses, unable to think for themselves. The credit stuff and the rest is indeed irresponsible, though.

edit-To avoid any misunderstanding, I'm not saying that people being dumb is what you believe Hooahguy, I'm just illustrating my point, which may be a bit simplistic and idealistic, given that so many voters apparently believe that Trump is anti-establishment.

[Montmorency]

It is certainly useful for states to keep secrets from their citizens insofar as they are keeping secrets from other states.

Also recall that states aren't unitary - politicians and bureaucrats can't have all their cards and considerations open to each other in the same state...

[Hooahguy]

Diplomatic negotiations do not fail because of some rude comments, imo.
Anyway I see your point, but I believe that the government shouldn't keep any secrets from its people.
Dishonesty should always be condemned and I believe that society is mature enough to know where its interests lie without the leadership paternalistically withholding information from the stupid masses, unable to think for themselves. The credit stuff and the rest is indeed irresponsible, though.

edit-To avoid any misunderstanding, I'm not saying that people being dumb is what you believe Hooahguy, I'm just illustrating my point, which may be a bit simplistic and idealistic, given that so many voters apparently believe that Trump is anti-establishment.
Ok granted my insult example isnt great but you get the idea. I agree that there should be a level of openness between the government and its people. But just as citizens have a right to know, I also think there is a right not to know. I mean, the whole idea of secret clearance levels exist for a reason I think. Now, where that line is drawn can be debated, but to me I dont think a state with no secrets can reasonably exist. Maybe Sealand.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

OK, first off, Manning is a She.

I'll take the lefty-card of all of you who brushed over that, you're disqualified as "card carrying lefties".

Now, to point.

1. Manning simply dumped a great deal of information onto Wiki-Leaks/the Guardian - neither of which are known for judgement or discretion.

2. Aside from the embarrassing revelation that American Diplomats all imitate Boris Johnson behind closed doors this resulted in the release of reams of classified operational data which had no political value but was aof great value to our enemies in the Middle East. People almost certainly suffered summary execution at the hands of Terrorists because of what Manning did.

Manning has their blood on her hands, but because the followup is still classified her supporters are spared the gory details of what happened to those people. They were people, not "spies", people who were probably beheaded, or tortured and shot.

3. Manning plead guilty to all charges. Having plead guilty to the release of the information she can't really be considered a "Whistleblower". What she was was a highly disturbed trans-gender woman who never should have been allowed to handle sensitive information. That's a significant point - Manning went to her CO, was ignored but at no point tried to escalate things within the Army. She just vomited whatever she could get her hands onto out onto the Internet.

Six years is not long enough - twelve years perhaps. I, for one, would like to know if the army is still paying for her surgery.

As to Snowden, Snowden is a fugitive from Justice currently being sheltered by Russia. As Obama noted, he can't pardon Snowden because Snowden hasn't submitted the required paperwork, i.e. he hasn't faced a court, been convicted and then asked for clemency.

This is also why Snowden is not a hero - a real patriot would return to the US and submit himself to the Courts. Fleeing to Russia is the action of a Traitor which has made it far more likely he'll be treated as such and executed.

[Crandar]

Fleeing to Russia is the action of a man who is not self-destructive. Russia was the best option, because no other country would give him asylum. It's the same with Assange, his friendship with Russia is not the cause of the leaks, but the consequence, the result of relentless persecution.

[Vuk]

A Bigly Presidential message from our future dic-tator.
19403

May God have mercy on all of our souls...

[Greyblades]

CNN's going "hint hint" about which obama cabinate member gets ghe big chair if trump dies before swearing in.

[Gilrandir]

2. Aside from the embarrassing revelation that American Diplomats all imitate Boris Johnson behind closed doors this resulted in the release of reams of classified operational data which had no political value but was aof great value to our enemies in the Middle East.

The said diplomats may do nastier things - like dressing up like women and fomenting unrest in this disguise. At least Lavrov says so, and he is the one to trust.
https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/american-spy-weirdos-56856
http://tass.com/politics/925394

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Oath completed and sworn at 1200 Eastern

The 45th Presidency begins.

[Beskar]

Oath completed and sworn at 1200 Eastern

The 45th Presidency begins.

Probably time for a new thread on the apocalypse, since now the election is 100% over.