Another terrible race motivated attack. [Archive]

Strike For The South

06-19-2015, 17:14

Let me preface this by saying I am a staunch federal man. Something about an all powerful federal government just makes me all warm and fuzzy.

Many Americans do not understand the Civil War. Unfortunately, to truly understand America, you have to understand the civil war. Some of this misunderstanding comes from the way the war is simplistically taught in schools, some comes from the fact that what is now probably a majority of Americans families were not even here when the war happened, some comes from the simple maxim that people do not really care, I will try not to dwell too much on that point.

Mind you, this is all a generalization and I wish I had more time.

The Antebellum south was a vestige of a forgotten time. In keeping with the spirit of the place, the south was averse to anything even hinting at modernity, preferring to move at their own languorous pace. It is not unfair to say the last feudal society in the west died at Appomattox court house. The North by contrast, had begun a full industrialization akin to Western Europe. Fueled by Northern Coal, navigable rivers, and a steady stream of immigrants the north was very much modern.

The souths power, which had always been disproportionate, began to wane at a very quick rate. The whole free soil debacle is for another time. Suffice to say, the south saw itself boxed in. The Federal government was caught between two economic systems and chose the north (internal improvements and tariffs) over the south (ag loans and export focused). To say the war is simply about the moral pox that was (and I suppose is) slavery is a gross oversimplification that lets half the country off the hook for the shameful way it has treated Black Americans for all but about 10% of its history.

Schools never go into the tariff or freight charges. They never talk about the lynching of free blacks in Pittsburgh or the murder of abolitionists in Boston. In the north it is about slavery and in the south it is about some kind of nebulous "way of life". This is because nuance is hard, time is short, and most educators do not understand the war themselves.

Most peoples families were not even here at the time of war, immigrating at a later point. This is not a bad thing (immigration is an integral part of Americana) it is only to illustrate the fact that there is no personal connection for these people. I think that counts for something, however tenuous.

The south lost 1/3 of its men and did not recover until after WWII. The recovery was spearheaded by internal (north-south) migration and later immigration from Latin America. The side that wants to take away the confederate flag is talking past the people who want to keep it. They do not understand it.

Veho Nex

06-19-2015, 18:01

https://i.imgur.com/idQTpRO.png

Ironside

06-19-2015, 18:02

The souths power, which had always been disproportionate, began to wane at a very quick rate. The whole free soil debacle is for another time. Suffice to say, the south saw itself boxed in. The Federal government was caught between two economic systems and chose the north (internal improvements and tariffs) over the south (ag loans and export focused). To say the war is simply about the moral pox that was (and I suppose is) slavery is a gross oversimplification that lets half the country off the hook for the shameful way it has treated Black Americans for all but about 10% of its history.

Schools never go into the tariff or freight charges. They never talk about the lynching of free blacks in Pittsburgh or the murder of abolitionists in Boston. In the north it is about slavery and in the south it is about some kind of nebulous "way of life". This is because nuance is hard, time is short, and most educators do not understand the war themselves.

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth..."

“Corner Stone” Speech
Alexander H. Stephens, Vice President of the Confederate States of America
Savannah, Georgia
March 21, 1861

"(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed." From the Confederate constitution.

Slavery was the issue the Confederacy decided to fight over. Why they chose this has economic reasons, but the choice was all about keeping slavery, rather than reforming the economy.

Edit: And that picture... Racism, bias and some points worth discussing but are quite hard to separate factors.

Statement: Institutional racism in the US forces the black population into a perpetual underclass with poverty and crime as a consequence.
Proof: That picture.

Truth: Insufficient data. It proves that blacks are generally an underclass (shocking I know). And that there's social factors doing at least some of this (one set of data shows that by 100%) Gives no data on why and what social factors. White seems to be a vague concept though. It's 63,7%, no 72%.

Topic wise, I'm not sure. Data used as propaganda leads to hate crimes down the road?

Husar

06-19-2015, 19:38

Let me continue Veho's great picture:

FACT: Whites genocided 95% of the original Americans.

FACT: 95% of the blacks (or their ancestors) didn't come to america voluntarily.

FACT: Talk about HIV all you want, god found other ways to kill white people: http://www.cdc.gov/cancer/skin/statistics/race.htm

SOURCES:

- Your mom

- my nose

- my butt

- the streets

- center of misleading statistics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation)

Beskar

06-19-2015, 20:16

I like how the statistics show black people are 'bad' because they are poor and starving in ghettos, how dare they rely on food stamps! Should take it a step further and suggest they should starve to death instead of the pittance poor week.

Not like actually providing better welfare support will significantly lower crime-rates or removing what is there wouldn't cause significant higher rate of crime..

a completely inoffensive name

06-19-2015, 20:22

So you are telling me that when you have institutions that destabilize the ability of a community to establish nuclear families, you get poverty, violence and welfare?

I could have sworn Rhy made a post describing aspects of UK society destabilizing because of the deterioration of families. I need to find it so I can respond to these "statistical" arguments.

Ironside

06-19-2015, 20:28

In case you wonder what I mean about propaganda.

Reading that info like you normally would (so no through reading), would you say that a black murderer are?:
a) Vastly more likely to murder a white person than a black person.
b) More likely to murder a white person than a black person.
c) About the same.
d) less likely to murder a white person than a black person.
e) Vastly less likely to murder a white person than a black person.

Tuuvi

06-19-2015, 22:00

picture

Do you sympathize with the killer Veho Nex?

Kadagar_AV

06-20-2015, 00:02

Edit: And that picture... Racism, bias and some points worth discussing but are quite hard to separate factors.

Statement: Institutional racism in the US forces the black population into a perpetual underclass with poverty and crime as a consequence.
Proof: That picture.

Truth: Insufficient data. It proves that blacks are generally an underclass (shocking I know)

Yes, blacks are the underclass in societies that mix white/black or asian/black or wherever blacks go that isn't Africa.

You CAN argue that it is because of institutional racism, as you argue.

You CAN also argue that blacks culturally and/or genetically are subpar, and that's why they generally end up in the lower end of most scales measured by the western society.

I like how the statistics show black people are 'bad' because they are poor and starving in ghettos, how dare they rely on food stamps! Should take it a step further and suggest they should starve to death instead of the pittance poor week.

Not like actually providing better welfare support will significantly lower crime-rates or removing what is there wouldn't cause significant higher rate of crime..

Why are they poor? Why are they living in ghettos?

Is it because everyone hate blacks, or is it because blacks just doesn't seem to be able to show their worth?

Look at asians that join western societies... They can come from totally devastated backgrounds, and they still not only function, but generally prosper in white societies.

So yeah, there are two ways of looking at this issue...

One way is to say that blacks don't do to well is because of RACISM...

Another way is to say that blacks are treated as they should be in a free market economy...

And yet another way is saying blacks probably should get their testosterone in check and work on their social ethics.

Furthermore we have the perspective of "let blacks be blacks, and let ME live MY life without them troubling me or my children".

This is ALL very generally speaking, of course.

Graphic

06-20-2015, 00:15

You CAN also argue that blacks culturally and/or genetically are subpar, and that's why they generally end up in the lower end of most scales measured by the western society.

Are you still pretending you're not a white supremacist?

Husar

06-20-2015, 00:21

Another way is to say that blacks are treated as they should be in a free market economy...

Hitler said the same thing about the jews.

Veho Nex

06-20-2015, 00:56

Tuuvi No, but I lived in Oakland where in my neighborhood 4 murders occurred in 1 year, less than 1 block from where I lived. Not a single one was perpetrated by a white person and 3 of 4 were black on black and 1 was black on Asian. It was not a predominately black neighborhood being mostly Asian (Chinese, Korean, and Indian). I believe there is something seriously wrong with race relations in this country, especially when the media only focuses on white on black violence. No one seems to give a damn if its black on black or black on other minority but the second white on black comes out it's suddenly #blacklivesmatter.

The whole perception of "woe is me and my fellow racial herd we are down trodden and left without a hope in the world" needs to end. There are 2nd and 3rd generation Hispanics that live in ghettos and still work their asses off to get ahead where we have 4th, 5th, or 6th generation blacks that believe shit needs to be handed to them. There are plenty of whites who think the same thing. It's the Govt that perpetuates the hate when your avg hard working American gets the brown end of the stick just so these bums can leach off the system. I see help wanted signs all over and I work 2 jobs myself, why do these people (black, white, or otherwise) feel they need food stamps, financial assistance, or whatever to make a living.

I don't really care about black on white crime as any racial vs white crime is going to be skewed because we are majority of population. There is obviously a large portion of Americans who will look at those stats and wonder why we even allow them to continue in our country. There are white ghettos just as there are black but we don't see the same crime statistics. This whole situation is sad but everyone is focusing on the wrong side of the argument. The guy was tired of what he saw and he hated them enough to throw his life away for it.

Husar, R.O.C. man. Who cares where the people came from. Whites conquered the world and really I don't feel the need to say sorry for something someone else's ancestors did 300(0) years ago. They did what they had the capability to do, expand, kill and make room to grow so they could expand and kill more. No other nation or race of people would have done it any differently. And I say someone else's because with my Irish and Finnish heritage I doubt my family were slave owners or assisted in the slave trade in the late 1890s when they came to America or my Scot heritage when they came here in the Early 1900s.

Kadagar_AV

06-20-2015, 01:02

Hitler said the same thing about the jews.

Source?

Hitler has said a lot of things about jews, but it would be news to me that he said that they did to poor in a market economy?

Wasn't it more about them acting like vultures in the market economy for their own gains instead of working for the best of the nation at large?

Kadagar_AV

06-20-2015, 01:31

Are you still pretending you're not a white supremacist?

I'm a factualist...

If I was a white supremacist, I wouldn't conclude that asians are smarter than whites, or that blacks run faster than whites...

I just look at the scoreboard mate...

And on that scoreboard, blacks don't do to well in western societies. Heck, blacks don't even do that well in their own societies or even nations.

Am I wrong?

Husar

06-20-2015, 01:45

Source?

Hitler has said a lot of things about jews, but it would be news to me that he said that they did to poor in a market economy?

Wasn't it more about them acting like vultures in the market economy for their own gains instead of working for the best of the nation at large?

That's not what you said, you said they are treated as they should, and he thought/said he was treating the jews as they should be treated or are you going to doubt that as well now?

According to the Ukraine thread that makes you just like Hitler because you use his rhetoric.

Kadagar_AV

06-20-2015, 02:03

That's not what you said, you said they are treated as they should, and he thought/said he was treating the jews as they should be treated or are you going to doubt that as well now?

According to the Ukraine thread that makes you just like Hitler because you use his rhetoric.

My point is that blacks might do less well in western societies because of cultural and/or genetical factors.

People at large are less eager to pay someone well or even hire them if they do not hold up to the standards set. It MIGHT be reasonable to argue that blacks just don't do that well in a free market.

I mean, seriously, with the amount of black people we have included, in a free market economy it would mean that, by your logic, the FIRST company that gets on the ball and start using the black labour force would profit like crazy, no?

But yet it never happens?

I say it again...

This CAN be because of structural racism.

This CAN be because blacks are not really worth much in the work market because of cultural/genetical reasons.

I know I am repeating myself, but seriously, why wouldn't a company or two have picked up on the HUGE potential that is the black population? By your reasoning, with blacks being on par with other races, the first company to invest in that workforce would sky rocket...

But yet, 2015, being black is still generally seen as a detrimental factor.

And from what I have experienced in my life, for good reasons.

Don't read me wrong though, I judge every person I meet individually. But in a macro-perspective... I mean, c'mon.. You would have to be blind not to see cultural differences.

a completely inoffensive name

06-20-2015, 02:04

You're an idiot if you think outright cultural suppression will in any way make things better.
Denazification worked. Tear down the symbols, root through the institutions down to the town level and systematically remove those in charge with a history of racial discrimination and their immediate subordinates.

Fragony

06-20-2015, 02:36

Denazification worked.

After a war that affected almost every German in one way or another. Kinda different from racist attacks that are quite rare.

Kadagar_AV

06-20-2015, 02:44

Denazification worked. Tear down the symbols, root through the institutions down to the town level and systematically remove those in charge with a history of racial discrimination and their immediate subordinates.

So... The correct way to handle a democracy is to go mayhem on democratic principles when someone challenge it?

You sound like RVG here, as you can read from my signature.

a completely inoffensive name

06-20-2015, 08:50

After a war that affected almost every German in one way or another. Kinda different from racist attacks that are quite rare.
It's not the racist attacks that is the problem, it's the institutional racism that targets black men and dismantles black families. This attack is just the tragic outburst that forces people to admit that there is a race problem.

Sarmatian

06-20-2015, 09:30

My point is that blacks might do less well in western societies because of cultural and/or genetical factors.

No.

It's not the racist attacks that is the problem, it's the institutional racism that targets black men and dismantles black families. This attack is just the tragic outburst that forces people to admit that there is a race problem.

This.

When what we call middle class was being formed in the USA, blacks simply weren't allowed to become a part of it. The current plight of blacks is the result of institutional racism that is still happening (to a lesser extent) now in the US.

Husar

06-20-2015, 09:57

I know I am repeating myself, but seriously, why wouldn't a company or two have picked up on the HUGE potential that is the black population? By your reasoning, with blacks being on par with other races, the first company to invest in that workforce would sky rocket...

Haha, yes, because companies are eager to solve the economic and educational problems of future employees. Next you are going to tell me that Goldman Sachs looks for poor, badly educated white/asian kids because they know that they have this huge potential from their genes or white/asian culture. :dizzy2:

Ironside

06-20-2015, 10:39

@<a href="https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=16500" target="_blank">Tuuvi</a> No, but I lived in Oakland where in my neighborhood 4 murders occurred in 1 year, less than 1 block from where I lived. Not a single one was perpetrated by a white person and 3 of 4 were black on black and 1 was black on Asian. It was not a predominately black neighborhood being mostly Asian (Chinese, Korean, and Indian). I believe there is something seriously wrong with race relations in this country, especially when the media only focuses on white on black violence. No one seems to give a damn if its black on black or black on other minority but the second white on black comes out it's suddenly #blacklivesmatter.

? The normal reaction when they play it up is black on white crimes. Your nice picture does it for example. Blacks are vastly less likely (factor 5x) to target a white guy for murder, than what would happen if they target people randomly. That data skewing is entirely due to black being a minority. Having a 10% minority, with the same crime rate as the other 90% would be 100 times more likely to commit a crime at majority than the majority committing a crime vs the minority. In this case, it's 20%=25 times. Either blacks aren't committing more assaults than whites or that increase are as large a the decrease to assault over the race barrier.

The big white on black cases has been about overly gun happy police that happens disproportionally to black people or vigilantes that decides to go after that black dude. Notice something in common?

The whole perception of "woe is me and my fellow racial herd we are down trodden and left without a hope in the world" needs to end. There are 2nd and 3rd generation Hispanics that live in ghettos and still work their asses off to get ahead where we have 4th, 5th, or 6th generation blacks that believe shit needs to be handed to them. There are plenty of whites who think the same thing. It's the Govt that perpetuates the hate when your avg hard working American gets the brown end of the stick just so these bums can leach off the system. I see help wanted signs all over and I work 2 jobs myself, why do these people (black, white, or otherwise) feel they need food stamps, financial assistance, or whatever to make a living.

I take it you're a regular Fox News viewer?

Short version. People working are common, people working their asses off and are talented in finding all job opportunities are less common. That applies in all social classes, but are more notable among the poor of course. If it simply was that people needs to pull oneself together under the threat of starvation, then we wouldn't had those huge issues in Eastern Europe after communism fell, or Romani beggars from Hungary all over Europe now.
That doesn't work. Well, it sort of do, alternate sources of money and food goes up rapidly, like begging and crime.

And the current situation aren't healthy for those "bums". As our "It's all about genetics" resident Kadagar can tell you, killing your own child is genetically stupid and a significant sign of mental unhealth coming from non-genetic sources. That is a situation they want to get out from, not something they choose to stay in because they're happy or content.

But by focusing on this, you can distract the poor from that they're working poor nowadays. You can still need food stamps while having a full time job (http://www.jwj.org/walmarts-food-stamp-scam-explained-in-one-easy-chart).

After a war that affected almost every German in one way or another. Kinda different from racist attacks that are quite rare.

Outright murder is rare. Institutional racism is very common and the denial of it is a notable sign of it. Here's Fox News (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/18/1394261/-Fox-News-Charleston-shooting-is-an-attack-on-faith-not-race-calls-for-pastors-to-arm-themselves), presidential candidate nr 1 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2015/06/18/rick-santorum-reacting-to-charleston-shooting-denounces-assaults-on-our-religious-liberty/), nr 2 (http://www.rawstory.com/2015/06/rick-perry-charleston-massacre-was-an-accident-caused-by-drugs-not-guns/) denying that this was a racist crime. It was an (atheist) attack on Christians or even an "accident" caused by taking medicines.

Differential treatment from the police.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKGZnB41_e4

It's not necessary starting out as racism, but the police are recommended to search for alternative revenue streams (http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=2108&issue_id=62010). Police Chief Magazine are a big one in the US. Short version, loot money from the population (some suggestions are actually decent).
Anybody with half a brain are going to figure out that you can't do that policy on people with influence. So you'll target people whose complaints won't be heard. And in the US, you only need to watch the skin colour to find a decent marker.
That's for example the boiling pot in Ferguson.
"This practice explains why Ferguson Municipal Court issued 24,532 warrants and heard 12,018 cases in 2013. That averages out to 1.5 cases and three warrants per every household in Ferguson." (http://qz.com/257042/these-seven-charts-explain-how-ferguson-and-many-other-us-cities-wring-revenue-from-black-people-and-the-poor/)

Fragony

06-20-2015, 11:50

Greyblades

06-20-2015, 12:24

Denazification worked. Tear down the symbols, root through the institutions down to the town level and systematically remove those in charge with a history of racial discrimination and their immediate subordinates.

And now we have husar, what an Improvement.

The south have done nothing close to deserving such a crackdown and to institute such a white wash of their history over the actions of a few is a pointless injustice and the same breed of cultural suppression that was perpritrated against natives and slaves in the colonial age.

Montmorency

06-20-2015, 12:25

The south have done nothing close to deserving such a crackdown and to institute such a white wash of their history over the actions of a few is an injustice of such a scale as to be a complete betrayal of the every good thing to come out of your revolution.

This is one of the most delusional things I have ever read on this site. :no:

Husar

06-20-2015, 12:31

And now we have husar, what an Improvement.

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

I apologize for being this way. How can I make up for it?

Greyblades

06-20-2015, 12:37

This is one of the most delusional things I have ever read on this site. :no:

Oh its one of those threads, where people are refreshing faster than i can edit out mistakes.

And dont BS me, you have read far far worse.

Montmorency

06-20-2015, 12:50

Wow, dude, you made it even worse.

Greyblades

06-20-2015, 12:52

How illuminating, surely that was the epitome of explanation.

Ironside

06-20-2015, 13:31

Without denying that that institutional racism exists, they do kinda cheat in their social experiment, the white guy is wearing it on his back, the black guy has it hanging next to his hip. The results will probably be the same vica versa but at least play fair.

If that would be the single difference between "What'cha doing" and "CODE RED", you're sort of missing a few steps. It's not like it'll take a major time difference to become threatening between the two positions.

And now we have husar, what an Improvement.

The south have done nothing close to deserving such a crackdown and to institute such a white wash of their history over the actions of a few is a pointless injustice and the same breed of cultural suppression that was perpritrated against natives and slaves in the colonial age.

The flag wasn't a major symbol until the Civil Rights movement began to take shape in the 1950s, says Bill Ferris, founding director of the Center for the Study of Southern Culture at the University of Mississippi, It was a battle flag relegated to history but the Ku Klux Klan and others who resisted desegregation turned to the flag as a symbol.
BBC (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23705803)

Using it as a rebel flag without acknowledging its racist connections is a white wash.

Greyblades

06-20-2015, 13:41

1. The white wash I was reffering to was the renaming of the streets. What flag the capitol flies is irrelevant.
2. Racist connotation? You really think most southerners are using the flag with the KKK in mind?

I'm not going to see St George's Cross as a racist symbol because a couple of EDL assholes used it. The french dont consider the tricolour as a racist symbol because the National Front uses it.
Why should the south pay such heed to the KKK's usage?

Montmorency

06-20-2015, 15:05

I'm not going to see St George's Cross as a racist symbol because a couple of EDL assholes used it.

But it could become one, you see? Are you one of those people who says that no one should have a problem with openly-displayed swastikas because it 'meant something else' in Asia? The fact is that the swastika has become strongly associated with the Nazi regime and its values, just as the cross became a symbol of Christianity, and so on with every geometrical or pictorial symbol ever used by humans. This is quite literally how symbols work.

Why should the south pay such heed to the KKK's usage?

Well, that's exactly what they did, according to Ironside's source...Now, you could claim that the symbol was re-oriented toward some different evaluation or connotation, but this is largely untrue or irrelevant, because where it is not directly linked to white supremacy it is directly linked to an identity predicated upon opposition to the Union and to the federal government, which even in itself should be quite an issue.

What flag the capitol flies is irrelevant.

Er, no, it's extremely relevant, and if you're some kind of super-libertarian devolutionist type like ICSD then it's exactly what you want to see. On the other hand, for unionists it's quite repugnant.

You really think most southerners are using the flag with the KKK in mind?

What they "have in mind" isn't even ultimately the point. The point isn't even that its usage contributes to a culture of Southern exceptionalism that can easily recreate or reinforce perceptions of the Otherness of non-Southerners and non-whites in general.

The flag is really small-fry. However, as part of a larger program of social reconstruction, it obviously has to be re-evaluated (i.e. devalued) by Southerners, even leaving aside the goal of reducing racial animosity. What it represents to those who flaunt it is automatically problematic without even bringing racial history into it.

Gilrandir

06-20-2015, 15:41

Are you one of those people who says that no one should have a problem with openly-displayed swastikas because it 'meant something else' in Asia? The fact is that the swastika has become strongly associated with the Nazi regime and its values, just as the cross became a symbol of Christianity, and so on with every geometrical or pictorial symbol ever used by humans.

During WWII the collaborative Russian liberation army used tricolor and St. Andrew's flags which are now adopted as the National flag of Russia and Russian Navy respectively.
15646 15647 15648
Does it mean that modern Russia glorifies nazi collaborators?

Greyblades

06-20-2015, 16:18

Montmorency

06-20-2015, 16:37

I am one of those people who say that asians shouldnt have to change thier symbols just because someone warped the swastika's meaning in the eyes of the public. Same with the Rebel standard, to quote office space "Why should I change? He's the one who sucks."

Again, no - terrible analogy. It should be obvious that modern Southerners are more continuous with 19th century Southerns than Nazis are with centuried Asian symbols. A far better analogy would be that we in the West frown upon people marching around with a red armband with swastika, and would frown upon it a hell of a lot more if those people claimed that this sort of symbolism was part of their cultural identity, but no it doesn't have anything to do with Nazi ideology why are we goose-stepping no reason just exercising...

BBC's magazine is such a great source and speaks for everyone, just ask the "canada's ugly secret" thread.

says Bill Ferris, founding director of the Center for the Study of Southern Culture at the University of Mississippi

You're really reaching here, aren't you?

It is irrelevant to this argument because if the united states capitol takes down a flag they put up it isnt imposing thier will on anyone but themselves.

Congratulations, you are now even more libertarian than ICSD. So why were you critical of the Scottish independence movement again?

The issue I have is ACIN's desire to impose that will on the entirety of the the south, specifically to make them comply with his political views.

Right now, any government building in the United States that flies a Confederate flag is giving an official endorsement of a separatist regime and separatist ideology more generally. That this would trouble anti-secessionists (who are also a majority in the South anyway, by the by) should neither surprise you nor invite your indignation.

Also, repugnant? It's just a flag, coloured cloth, the north's interpritation of it's meaning may be repugnant (to them) but frankly I find most outside interpritations in general to be worthless; mixes of confirmation bias and agenda pushing. What matters is the intent of the ones flying that flag and I doubt anyone here can be trusted to tell us without toeing a party line.

What? Completely-backwards paragraph. The North and the South share an interpretation, it's just that many in the South value it positively while elsewhere it is usually valued negatively.

Greyblades

06-20-2015, 17:17

Again, no - terrible analogy. It should be obvious that modern Southerners are more continuous with 19th century Southerns than Nazis are with centuried Asian symbols. A far better analogy would be that we in the West frown upon people marching around with a red armband with swastika, and would frown upon it a hell of a lot more if those people claimed that this sort of symbolism was part of their cultural identity, but no it doesn't have anything to do with Nazi ideology why are we goose-stepping no reason just exercising... Except for alot of them it is part of thier cultural identity, Thier ancestors marched under it, it's been included in ther history books since the war ended and it's been used in reenactments without shame since 1913.

You're really reaching here, aren't you?No I'm dismissing with a pithy comment, I couldnt care less about this man's opinion of what meaing the denizens of the south takes from the flag, especially when his comment is proceeded by:

He likens it to the swastika but others see it very differently. Indeed, the flag has been compared to a Rorschach blot because it means several things at all at once, depending on who is looking at it.

"All symbols are liable to multiple interpretations but this is unique in its power and ability to inflame passions on all sides, and the volume of interpretations and preconceptions about it make it unique in American history," says John Coski, author of The Confederate Battle Flag: America's Most Embattled Emblem. He has even seen it displayed in Europe, where it has become shorthand for "rebel".

It means different things to different people, the article showed that at least there were differences between these two men.

Congratulations, you are now even more libertarian than ICSD. So why were you critical of the Scottish independence movement again?

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/583/040/cff.png

Right now, any government building in the United States that flies a Confederate flag is giving an official endorsement of a separatist regime and separatist ideology more generally. That this would trouble anti-secessionists (who are also a majority in the South anyway, by the by) should neither surprise you nor invite your indignation. Never said it surprised me and the invitation was putting it on a public forum.

I stand by my statment that ACIN's an idiot if he thinks outright cultural suppression will in any way make things better, and he's a worse idiot if he thinks it is even warranted.

Call me when they stop paying taxes and start shooting feds.

What? Completely-backwards paragraph. The North and the South share an interpretation, it's just that many in the South value it positively while elsewhere it is usually valued negatively....How can they have the same interpritation if they differ in interpriting it's value?

Read strikes post again, the north and south dont share an interpritation on why teh war started let alone the meaning behind the war's flags.

PanzerJaeger

06-21-2015, 00:53

I certainly don’t support the killer’s disgusting act, but I do understand it. The statistics shown in the infographic posted earlier in this thread are collected and published by our own government, and yet they never seem to make it into the ever present national discussion on race. In a rational, logic-based society, police would be encouraged to use data and statistics to target those groups most prone to criminal activity. In America, that’s called police brutality. In a rational, logic-based society, policing strategies based on such statistics that have proven successful would be standardized and duplicated throughout the country. In America, politicians are dismantling them. In a rational, logic-based society, it would be assumed that a group disproportionately prone to criminal activity would also be disproportionately represented in the prison system. In America, that’s institutional racism. In a rational, logic-based society the existence of a group that consists of 13% of the population yet commits 52% of the nation’s homicides would result in more policing of said group. In America, the problem of ‘over policing’ of the black community is common knowledge. In a rational, logic-based society, the fact that whites are 25 times more likely to be victims of black violence than the reverse, yielding 300,000+ victims annually, would result in significant public outcry. And yet in America, the #blacklivesmatter movement has swept the nation. It’s like we live in some Orwellian nightmare where everyone is aware of the reality surrounding them but no one is willing to acknowledge it for fear of reprisal from the thought police.

Having lived in a black majority city that was built by whites and once prospered under their leadership, I can understand the frustration and hopelessness of standing by while once proud institutions crumble, a once strong economy falters, and once beautiful and safe neighborhoods transform into drug and crime infested hellholes, without being able to utter a word because racism. The attack is a tragedy. However, it is just a symptom of the distorted way in which Americans have been conditioned to think about race.

Montmorency

06-21-2015, 02:41

Ignoring even the fact that the infographic is quite simply false and a gross example of statistical malpractice, you speak of logic and reason, yet I see you are careful to tiptoe around both the etiology of the problem and the indications for treating it.

Go back to SBPDL, please.

Beskar

06-21-2015, 02:45

That was the biggest load of hogwash I have seen in a long time and writing "rational logical-based society" four times doesn't make what you said either rational nor logical-based, considering the lack of awareness for basic socio economic factors are being thrown out the window.

Considering crime-rate is higher for people in poor situations, and that 'black' people are disportionately poorer than 'white' people, a rational logic-based society would be aware of this, and act in the interest of reducing crime by improving living standards and giving opportunity to those who need it most. As such, people who use logic and think rationally would come to the conclusion that scapegoating over race is silly and pro-actively encouraging segregation and victimising of a populace based on amount of melanin in their skin cells would not decrease crime-rate but by inverse, increase it, exasperating the issue, leading to a stronger self-fulfilling cycle.

A rational logic-based society would actually conclude "treat others how you would like to be treated yourself" and actually start to promote a society based on these tenets, and improve the situation for everyone. As such, a rational and logical-based society wouldn't victimise people into a detrimental underclass, unless they are actually some kind of sadist and enjoy the thought of being trampled over by society, which in their case, they should volunteer to be in that position without putting others in it.

PanzerJaeger

06-21-2015, 05:27

Montmorency

06-21-2015, 06:41

You're proving my point. You've been conditioned to think of any and all racial disparities as purely a function of socioeconomic condition without bothering to apply, pardon my repetition, a rational, logic-based approach to verifying your assumption.

Not quite. Leaving aside the vociferous asseverations and ideological commitments of both broad "sides", the facts are as follows:

1. Since the end of the Reconstruction era, Blacks whether staying in the South or migrating to the North or West have been systematically exploited for their labor while being officially or quasi-officially segregated into under-invested slums. Both segregation and under-investment together created inherently weak and unstable communities.
2. Today, many large Black (especially urban) communities fare poorly on socioeconomic indicators, and overall crime rates are unacceptably higher than for most other possible groupings of comparable order-of-magnitude in population size.
3. Non-Blacks tend to look down on or ware Blacks, meaning that a widespread cultural bias (manifesting primarily with respect to the heuristics of skin color/facial morphology and voice quality/speech accent) leads to additional disadvantages for Blacks in their relationships with, for example, private employers and the judiciary at-large.

What we should take away from the three points above is that American political and civic institutions essentially 'ruined' the Black-American population through short-sighted policies based upon fear and contempt. The urban pathologies of the 1970s and 1980s did not spontaneously emerge from any post-war (i.e. WW2) federal policy or from the civil rights movement; they had been burgeoning from the end of the Civil War, and were only ever contained by severe repression and the coercive capacity of the non-Black population. The real problem today in concentrated Black communities underlying poor performance and outcomes, leaving aside whatever one may say of the acute effects of continuing under-investment or hasty discrimination, is that Black communities formed in the wake of emancipation and migration were by design so weak that very little sense of communalism developed, and inasmuch as it did it tended to be tamped by the political and economic disfavors done over the years. So now, then, many Blacks tend to be radically-individualistic. The Conservative/Libertarian ascendancy since the 1970s has only reinforced these tendencies.

Now we are getting to the crux. The most fundamental disease affecting underperforming Black communities is quite simply the very same disease that is constantly and publicly tearing at the very fabric of American civil society. It surprises me that even though some rightist commentators like to point out the relative social conservatism of "Black America", they have not hit upon this point, namely that there is really very little separating a Black "gangbanger living the thug life" and the usual suspects constituting the Tea Party. All the major ideological narratives offered in the reported discourse on race in America today are therefore wrong.

The etiology is quite clear, and many of its corollaries persist even today. No 'contained' reform, reparation, or rehabilitation targeting either some designated "powerful" or "privileged" group, or some "deficient" or "disenfranchised" group, can possibly produce any meaningful social change or useful outcomes. The "problems" affecting Black America are utterly inextricable from those affecting America as a whole, so splitting hairs about differences in specific "values" or whatever will not prove persuasive.

Only a wholesale reconstitution and reorganization of the political, economic, and administrative structure of the United States could possibly bring Blacks (or for that matter Aboriginals or Latinos, but by their own idiosyncratic histories that I will defer on) 'up to par', so to speak.

There's no real reason to believe that such a thing would occur in the medium-term however, so right now all we actually have is sanctimonious bloviation between serried ranks of fools, charlatans, and malingerers.

I don't really even give a crap about political or social issues anymore: you're all a bunch of BSers BSing BSers. All I have now is my (thankfully) impotent pedantry...

Montmorency

06-21-2015, 06:52

Such intellectual insularity and close-mindedness towards other points of view isn't healthy, and is actually the same kind thinking that caused this tragedy.

Didn't catch this edit. Kind of like Hitler saying that "Jewish science" is too plagued by "intellectual insularity and close-mindedness towards other points of view" to contribute anything to Der große Deutsch Physik....

You make a fine casuist, sir.

Fragony

06-21-2015, 07:58

If that would be the single difference between "What'cha doing" and "CODE RED", you're sort of missing a few steps. It's not like it'll take a major time difference to become threatening between the two positions.

To me it would absolutily look different, if you do a social experiment you must eliminate everything that could alter the results. This looks like they were out for an outcome.

Ironside

06-21-2015, 09:27

In America, that’s called police brutality. In a rational, logic-based society, policing strategies based on such statistics that have proven successful would be standardized and duplicated throughout the country. In America, politicians are dismantling them. In a rational, logic-based society, it would be assumed that a group disproportionately prone to criminal activity would also be disproportionately represented in the prison system. In America, that’s institutional racism. In a rational, logic-based society the existence of a group that consists of 13% of the population yet commits 52% of the nation’s homicides would result in more policing of said group. In America, the problem of ‘over policing’ of the black community is common knowledge.

Do you trust the police?

Would you trust a police using you as a piggy bank by giving you random fines?
Would you trust a police that randomly arrest you to fill a quota?
Would you trust a police were an arrest commonly ends up with a hospital visit or even death?
Would you trust a police who arrest you on bogus charges and then later admits to lying in civil court and ends up with no consequences at all?
Would you trust a police that made SWATing an actual thing in internet harassment?
Would you trust a justice system that keeps you imprisoned for years without conviction on a crime that amounts to shoplifting?
Would you trust a justice system where you get out quicker by confessing and sitting off the time than await the case to even come to trial?

A rational, logic-based society knows that people trusting to police makes wonders for reducing the crime ratio and generally improve the situation in the area. There's strategies that does just that, which includes a heavy police presence in the area, but since the police is friendly, the population now trust the police.

Most of the US police does not employ these methods, as they're expensive in manpower. And doesn't involve idea's such a black youths are thugs that deserves what are coming for them, when they are shot to death.

In a rational, logic-based society, the fact that whites are 25 times more likely to be victims of black violence than the reverse, yielding 300,000+ victims annually, would result in significant public outcry. And yet in America, the #blacklivesmatter movement has swept the nation. It’s like we live in some Orwellian nightmare where everyone is aware of the reality surrounding them but no one is willing to acknowledge it for fear of reprisal from the thought police.

A rational logic-based society calls that utter stupidity.

Hi, I'm from 20% minority Blue and have a rage issue. If I attack a random guy on the street, I'll attack the 80% majority Green 80 times out of 100.
Hi, I'm from 80% majority Green and have a rage issue. If I attack a random guy on the street, I'll attack the 20% minority Green 20 times out of 100.

Blue does 20 random assults a year. 16 will hit Green, 4 Blue.
Green does 80 random assults a year. 64 will hit Green, 16 Blue. So with the same crime ratio, Blue vs Green is the same number as Green vs Blue, despite Blue being a minority. This will always happen, no matter the size of the minority.
Now, because Blue are a minority, we have to multiply that 16 with 4 to get the "true number". Suddenly Blue commits 4x times as many Blue vs Green compared to Green vs Blue, due to a statistical lie.

In the case of blacks, they do have more assults in general so their number will be higher. For the murder ratio, you have the total number making it possible to see if there's any targeting effects or a side effect of a higher base number. The targeting effect is negative (as in black vs white murders are rarer than random) in that case.

My flaw from yesterday was mentally running with 100 assults for both groups and missing that is defaults to a higher baseline for the minority.

a completely inoffensive name

06-21-2015, 09:31

Looks like Monty agrees with me. Radical Reconstruction it is.

Fragony

06-21-2015, 09:48

Looks like Monty agrees with me. Radical Reconstruction it is.

Or radical denial because what you want doesn't resonate all that well with what is. I haven't checked the numbers but the outcome seems to be a given to you whatever the variables.

naut

06-21-2015, 09:56

The attack is a tragedy. However, it is just a symptom of the distorted way in which Americans have been conditioned to think about race.

I have no words. And neither it seems, do you.

Papewaio

06-21-2015, 14:26

FYI the Nazi Swatizka looks as much like the Buddhist one as a cross (t) looks like an x

As for the confederate flag. Apart from reenactment and dramas I would have put its usage in the same category or worse than burning the flag of the USA. The confederates lost in rebellion to the USA. So showing any official allegiance to it should be treated like showing allegiance to an enemy of the state like Al Qaeda.

Greyblades

06-21-2015, 14:44

Really?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/Jain_Prateek_Chihna.svg/90px-Jain_Prateek_Chihna.svg.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Samarra_bowl.jpg/220px-Samarra_bowl.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/Ancient_Roman_Mosaics_Villa_Romana_La_Olmeda_007_Pedrosa_De_La_Vega_-_Salda%C3%B1a_%28Palencia%29.JPG/200px-Ancient_Roman_Mosaics_Villa_Romana_La_Olmeda_007_Pedrosa_De_La_Vega_-_Salda%C3%B1a_%28Palencia%29.JPG
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Swastika.jpg/150px-Swastika.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Swastika

Papewaio

06-21-2015, 14:53

A cross is an x rotated by 90 degrees. A Nazi swatizka is a Buddhist swatizka rotated by 90 degrees.

Subtle difference which is more obvious when you use it daily like a t and an x.

=][=

Anyhow might as well destroy all Christian churches as they have a cross and the Nazis had iron crosses...

Greyblades

06-21-2015, 14:55

A cross (as in a crucifix or a t) has one arm elongated, a bit more than a 45 (not 90) degree turn.

Do you mean perhaps the plus sign on a calculator?

As for the confederate flag. Apart from reenactment and dramas I would have put its usage in the same category or worse than burning the flag of the USA. The confederates lost in rebellion to the USA. So showing any official allegiance to it should be treated like showing allegiance to an enemy of the state like Al Qaeda.
Meh, I dont consider flag burning hienous (waste of a good flag, imo) and I certainly dont think either should be illegal.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-21-2015, 16:40

But it could become one, you see? Are you one of those people who says that no one should have a problem with openly-displayed swastikas because it 'meant something else' in Asia? The fact is that the swastika has become strongly associated with the Nazi regime and its values, just as the cross became a symbol of Christianity, and so on with every geometrical or pictorial symbol ever used by humans. This is quite literally how symbols work.

There's nothing wrong with Swastikas, and they're everywhere in Europe, on Greek temples, in Churches, on a mass of public buildings from the late 18th Century up to the 1930's.

The question of St. George's Cross is a pregnant one because during the 1990's it was seen as a somewhat crass and possibly racist, or isolationist, symbol. In the last 15 years there has been a reaction against that and the Cross is now regularly displayed on houses, Pubs, Town Halls etc.

The Nazi Swastika is only seen as a Nazi symbol because everyone else stopped using it at the outset of WWII to avoid confusion, hence its removal from the US 45th Infantry Division.

Personally, I think we should put Swastikas on everything, and we should especially encourage the JEwish Community to integrate the design into the floors etc of Synagogues - it historically appears in some texts and art associated with Judaism.

If we did that it would cease to be an effective Neo-Nazi standard.

Moving on...

You are advocating the destruction of Southern Culture, symbolism, traditions... etc. because of a perceived ingrained racism. Such a destruction would necessarily have to be complete, it would require a program similar to the residential schools one discussed in our other thread. It would not just be a question of flags, but of social conventions, cultural institutions, traditions, history and even dialect.

It would be necessary to utterly suppress both white and black culture in the region for a couple of centuries to final wipe it out, if you are saying that Southern culture is inherently racist.

Such projects have been tried with varying levels of success in the Old World, English suppression of Welsh, Cornish, Irish and Scots; French suppression of the Bretons and Occitans; Spanish suppression of Basques and Catalans; Swedish suppression of the Sami.

In Spain and the UK this resulted in multiple flare-ups of rebellion and more recently terrorism, in France it has been more successful (I recall something about Brenus being Occitan but looking down upon them) but still causes tension, the Sami are not a particularly happy people these days but I know less about that to be fair.

DeNazification worked because it only had to scrape off a Nazi veneer which had persisted for around a decade and a half, even then if didn't excise Germany of its sense of superiority or its natural prejudices, it just redirected them - both reappeared with the Eurozone crisis. No, what DeNazification did was make everyone ashamed of what they and/or their parents had done. The strategy was effective in neutering the movement but it wasn't really healthy for Germany and they're only no getting over it.

So, Nazi's were around for at most two decades and the shock delivered to expunge them has taken 70 years and counting to get over. The South has a history stretching back about four centuries, how long do you think it would take to wipe the culture clean and rebuild it?

Husar

06-21-2015, 17:27

So, Nazi's were around for at most two decades and the shock delivered to expunge them has taken 70 years and counting to get over. The South has a history stretching back about four centuries, how long do you think it would take to wipe the culture clean and rebuild it?

Around the same time because that is about the time it takes for the people who lived under the former wrong system to die out?

Greyblades

06-21-2015, 17:54

Only if you go the slash and burn, rip children from thier mothers breast method that takes you from the moral high ground and straight into the laurentian abyss.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-21-2015, 17:55

Around the same time because that is about the time it takes for the people who lived under the former wrong system to die out?

If that were true we would have succeeded in wiping out the Welsh and the Cornish over a century ago.
The South is not a "system" it is a culture.

Compare to the Roman attempts to wipe out Christianity, or the multiple vigorous attempts to wipe out Judaism.

Nazism itself was a relatively short lived political ideaology, so it was relatively easy to wipe out, because you didn't have to attack Germany's underlying culture (which remains largely intact).

Montmorency

06-21-2015, 19:00

Personally, I think we should put Swastikas on everything, and we should especially encourage the JEwish Community to integrate the design into the floors etc of Synagogues - it historically appears in some texts and art associated with Judaism.

If we did that it would cease to be an effective Neo-Nazi standard.

:laugh4: :laugh4:

Oh yeah, that's such a trivial undertaking right there, compared to taking fresh oaths of allegiance from one-time traitor-provinces.

You are advocating the destruction of Southern Culture, symbolism, traditions... etc.

Technically for all cultures everywhere.

because of a perceived ingrained racism.

No. Again, the radical reorganization of human civilization on the planet isn't pertinent to what we're trying to describe in the moment.

Anyone can display any flag they like - unless they happen to be public properties or institutions. That's really not a lot to ask, and anyone who protests that it is must essentially admit themselves willing to submit to the most radical devolution any organization might be willing to institute within any set of borders - because despite contemporary shenanigans and grumblings, there is no country in the world with a stronger central government than the United States. Nowhere in the world are local, regional, and national (i.e. federal) so tightly-enmeshed and interwoven as they are in the US - and don't even think to bring up some edge cases like mini-islands and city-states.

I am not joking when I say that the very concept of central authority is at stake here. The American executive must not waver.

Husar

06-21-2015, 19:15

Only if you go the slash and burn, rip children from thier mothers breast method that takes you from the moral high ground and straight into the laurentian abyss.

If that were true we would have succeeded in wiping out the Welsh and the Cornish over a century ago.
The South is not a "system" it is a culture.

Compare to the Roman attempts to wipe out Christianity, or the multiple vigorous attempts to wipe out Judaism.

Nazism itself was a relatively short lived political ideaology, so it was relatively easy to wipe out, because you didn't have to attack Germany's underlying culture (which remains largely intact).

The Nazis also had children, the turning point was when the whole population was forced to admit the crimes they let happen in their country. Some were forced to walk through concentration camps and "clean them up", bury the dead etc. A similar method would have to be found for the south so that they realize how wrong their ideas are and begin to not teach their children the old and wrongful ways. Currently the federal government does not put enough effort into crushing the racist myths like the ones we have seen in this thread.
It's not about wiping it out, it's about making them face the problems with their culture so that they will want to change themselves. At the moment they perpetuate the myths about how great it is and noone really opposes or challenges them.

That you think about ripping children away from mothers is worrying though.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-21-2015, 19:40

The Nazis also had children, the turning point was when the whole population was forced to admit the crimes they let happen in their country. Some were forced to walk through concentration camps and "clean them up", bury the dead etc. A similar method would have to be found for the south so that they realize how wrong their ideas are and begin to not teach their children the old and wrongful ways. Currently the federal government does not put enough effort into crushing the racist myths like the ones we have seen in this thread.
It's not about wiping it out, it's about making them face the problems with their culture so that they will want to change themselves. At the moment they perpetuate the myths about how great it is and noone really opposes or challenges them.

Except that, again, you're only talking about things a generation deep, and only a small proportion of Germans were actually involved in Nazisim directly, or actively supported Nazi genocides. There's ample evidence from the diaries of German soldiers that they were disgusted by the Nazis, but they were honourable to a fault and loyal to their country.

That's completely different to crushing hundreds of years of history - something the North actually tried with "Reconstruction". They flat out failed and Southern Stats had to be forced to integrate by Federal Law.

That you think about ripping children away from mothers is worrying though.

Don't make this about my character, this has nothing to do with what I believe, I'm telling you how it can be done - if you feel it's justified.

I know the history, I didn't make this up - it was a common practice in most the world until about 50 years ago, the aim being to create homogeneous nation-states out of disparate peoples. One of the best expressions of the phenomenon and its impact on children and their families was an Australian Film called "Rabbit Proof Fence", there was also a US film about the residential schools there, but I can't remember the name of it.

Pannonian

06-21-2015, 19:48

I know the history, I didn't make this up - it was a common practice in most the world until about 50 years ago, the aim being to create homogeneous nation-states out of disparate peoples. One of the best expressions of the phenomenon and its impact on children and their families was an Australian Film called "Rabbit Proof Fence", there was also a US film about the residential schools there, but I can't remember the name of it.

Or even cultural genocide in its purest form, as practised by Genghis Khan. Kill all males above a certain height (and thus age). Enroll all remaining males in a homogenised culture defined by you. Go and do stuff under the name of the new culture.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-21-2015, 19:52

:laugh4: :laugh4:

Oh yeah, that's such a trivial undertaking right there, compared to taking fresh oaths of allegiance from one-time traitor-provinces.

My understanding is that, at the time, the Federal Government had no legal mechanism to prevent a state secededing.

Anyway, that was my personal opinion, but I understand why it's not likely to catch on. That doesn't change the fact that if Israel really wanted to stick it to the Nazi's they'd surround the Star of David with a Halo of Swastikas.

Technically for all cultures everywhere.

Except yours - your culture is like your accent, you think you're the baseline and everyone else is deviant.

It's your culture that makes you want to wipe out all cultures.

No. Again, the radical reorganization of human civilization on the planet isn't pertinent to what we're trying to describe in the moment.

Everybody who tried such a "radical reorganisation" is remembered a monster because everybody resisted and they had to kill thousands to cow the rest.

Anyone can display any flag they like - unless they happen to be public properties or institutions. That's really not a lot to ask, and anyone who protests that it is must essentially admit themselves willing to submit to the most radical devolution any organization might be willing to institute within any set of borders - because despite contemporary shenanigans and grumblings, there is no country in the world with a stronger central government than the United States. Nowhere in the world are local, regional, and national (i.e. federal) so tightly-enmeshed and interwoven as they are in the US - and don't even think to bring up some edge cases like mini-islands and city-states.

I am not joking when I say that the very concept of central authority is at stake here. The American executive must not waver.

Sorry, is the Executive currently doing something?

Husar

06-21-2015, 20:43

Except that, again, you're only talking about things a generation deep, and only a small proportion of Germans were actually involved in Nazisim directly, or actively supported Nazi genocides. There's ample evidence from the diaries of German soldiers that they were disgusted by the Nazis, but they were honourable to a fault and loyal to their country.

That's completely different to crushing hundreds of years of history - something the North actually tried with "Reconstruction". They flat out failed and Southern Stats had to be forced to integrate by Federal Law.

History is only in peoples' heads and we have far more modern ways to mess with them than the people in any of the previous attempts had at their disposal. At one point it may become possible to just overwite their memories with different ones.
Either way I was talking about a very big and proactive effort, not just dropping some leaflets.

Something like switch all the TV programs to federal propaganda and facts about how evil the south was half the day. Some may resist at first but once they are crushed the others will slowly start to change their beliefs. Korea was one country at some point and now the entire north is brainwashed to believe the Kims are angels and everybody else is an enemy. Don't pretend it is not possible.

You could start to strip them of benefits, make shops that you can only enter wearing a union flag etc.

Don't make this about my character, this has nothing to do with what I believe, I'm telling you how it can be done - if you feel it's justified.

You keep misreading me. I quoted both you and Greyblades and that part was especially aimed at Greyblades, indicated by the fact that I used the same words he did.

Montmorency

06-21-2015, 20:50

Except yours - your culture is like your accent, you think you're the baseline and everyone else is deviant.

It's your culture that makes you want to wipe out all cultures.

Playing fast and loose with terms like that only leads to trivial tautologies.

Everybody who tried such a "radical reorganisation" is remembered a monster because everybody resisted and they had to kill thousands to cow the rest.

Connected to the above, my position on the issue is simply that if the perpetuation of humanity for its own sake is the baseline objective, then absolute autocracy is the most effective long-run form of governance. Autocracy and social reorganization have been attempted before, but never absolutely and never on a global scale.

Sorry, is the Executive currently doing something?

Come again?

a completely inoffensive name

06-21-2015, 21:43

I love how removing symbols of oppression, renaming streets and removing racist police forces is akin to ripping babies from their mothers.

a completely inoffensive name

06-21-2015, 21:48

I hope some people actually look at the policies of radical reconstruction during the 1860s and 1870s. It was because of these attempts at destroying southern culture that blacks achieved for the first time representation in office. Moderate Republicans at the time felt that simply encoding into law the rights of blacks would be enough to protect blacks once the South re-integrated into the Union. What became of that was Jim Crow and the perversion of the law through inaction by racist police and loopholes written into law by racist state governments. There are more than a few districts in the deep south who still have not elected a black representative since the 1880s, despite the demographics of the area.

You people have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the insidious nature of racism against blacks in the South and midwest.

PanzerJaeger

06-21-2015, 22:18

You people have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the insidious nature of racism against blacks in the South and midwest.

I'm wondering if you do. (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-02-01/racial-equality-opportunity-gap/52923362/1) The South you want to reconstruct appears to be more caricature than reality (http://www.forbes.com/sites/joelkotkin/2015/01/15/the-cities-where-african-americans-are-doing-the-best-economically/), decades behind the curve (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/22/nyregion/many-black-new-yorkers-are-moving-to-the-south.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2&emc=eta1).

It's actually fascinating how close to Dylann Roof's line of reasoning you've come in this thread without even realizing it.

Greyblades

06-21-2015, 22:27

I love how removing symbols of oppression, renaming streets and removing racist police forces is akin to ripping babies from their mothers.

...a way to misread my post. You wanna do it within your lifespan you gotta get nasty, taking their flags and place names will do nothing but poss people off.

a completely inoffensive name

06-21-2015, 22:50

Calm down guys, no need to be nasty here. Comparing me to a murderer and calling me a dumbass hurts my feelings.

Greyblades

06-21-2015, 23:07

Calm down guys, no need to be nasty here. Comparing me to a murderer and calling me a dumbass hurts my feelings.

Yeah that was going too far. Sorry... though I don't remember comparing you to a murderer.

a completely inoffensive name

06-21-2015, 23:10

though I don't remember calling you a murderer.

That was Panzer who did that.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-21-2015, 23:15

Playing fast and loose with terms like that only leads to trivial tautologies.

Using more words doesn't seem to get through to you so I'm mostly just trying to discredit your ideas in view of everyone else.

It's important to oppose totalitarian ideas, in fact it is essential.

You are the product of a certain culture, something you will be largely unaware of unless you have studied it. Your particular reaction to your culture is to want to "destroy all culture" but that's not actually possible, and what you would merely be doing is forcibly homogenising all cultures so that they are indistinguishable.

Such has been tried before in the Old and New World and pretty much every attempt qualifies as state brutality.

Connected to the above, my position on the issue is simply that if the perpetuation of humanity for its own sake is the baseline objective, then absolute autocracy is the most effective long-run form of governance. Autocracy and social reorganization have been attempted before, but never absolutely and never on a global scale.

Absolute Autocracy is the best form of government when the Autocrat is enlightened, the worst when he is a Tyrant.

Compare Augustus and Caligula.

Come again?

What is the American Executive doing about racism in the US?

Anything?

at all?

Husar

06-22-2015, 00:00

Absolute Autocracy is the best form of government when the Autocrat is enlightened, the worst when he is a Tyrant.

Computers can be very enlightened.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-22-2015, 02:06

History is only in peoples' heads and we have far more modern ways to mess with them than the people in any of the previous attempts had at their disposal. At one point it may become possible to just overwite their memories with different ones.
Either way I was talking about a very big and proactive effort, not just dropping some leaflets.

Something like switch all the TV programs to federal propaganda and facts about how evil the south was half the day. Some may resist at first but once they are crushed the others will slowly start to change their beliefs. Korea was one country at some point and now the entire north is brainwashed to believe the Kims are angels and everybody else is an enemy. Don't pretend it is not possible.

You could start to strip them of benefits, make shops that you can only enter wearing a union flag etc.

OK, right, now I know you're joking.

Southerners have to wear union flags or not be served in shops... like a Star of David.

Also, I know that you know North Korea kills any "citizen" who is in any way deviant, either bullet to the back of the head or a death camp.

In fact, North Korea is the perfect illustration of my point - a society reshaped by brutality and terror.

Computers can be very enlightened.

No, they can't. As things stand computers just run calculations, the calculations humans tell them to. You could theoretically extrapolate what the world's greatest leaders would do given a set of variable from their speeches, writing etc. but what happens if you program in Ghandi and Julius Caesar and their opinions conflict?

Computer goes crazy and kills everyone by crucifying them whilst giving them free bread?

That's assuming your programmers are anything like enlightened, most modern computer programmers are poorly educated in a general sense, they don't study philosophy or metaphysics or literature.

Husar

06-22-2015, 07:33

OK, right, now I know you're joking.

Southerners have to wear union flags or not be served in shops... like a Star of David.

Yes, it was intentionally over the top, but consider that being black is like wearing a star of david that you were born with and can't lay off in some areas. That might just be why some people want to change that.

Also, I know that you know North Korea kills any "citizen" who is in any way deviant, either bullet to the back of the head or a death camp.

In fact, North Korea is the perfect illustration of my point - a society reshaped by brutality and terror.

I thought your point was that it can't be done quickly, NK just illustrates that it can be done if the will is there.

No, they can't. As things stand computers just run calculations, the calculations humans tell them to. You could theoretically extrapolate what the world's greatest leaders would do given a set of variable from their speeches, writing etc. but what happens if you program in Ghandi and Julius Caesar and their opinions conflict?

Computer goes crazy and kills everyone by crucifying them whilst giving them free bread?

That's assuming your programmers are anything like enlightened, most modern computer programmers are poorly educated in a general sense, they don't study philosophy or metaphysics or literature.

Prejudices, the human brain is just a somewhat more flexible computer with plenty of faults of its own. If one of them reads Ayn Rand it may become just as ruthless. A computer would merely have to lack the need to be superior to its peers in order to provide an improvement.

Montmorency

06-22-2015, 08:33

Using more words doesn't seem to get through to you so I'm mostly just trying to discredit your ideas in view of everyone else.

So, just pure sophistry then?

It's important to oppose totalitarian ideas, in fact it is essential.

roflmao

You are the product of a certain culture, something you will be largely unaware of unless you have studied it. Your particular reaction to your culture is to want to "destroy all culture" but that's not actually possible, and what you would merely be doing is forcibly homogenising all cultures so that they are indistinguishable.

Now you're either equivocating or deeply-confused about how you are using the word "culture".

Absolute Autocracy is the best form of government when the Autocrat is enlightened, the worst when he is a Tyrant.

if the perpetuation of humanity for its own sake is the baseline objective, then absolute autocracy is the most effective long-run form of governance.

What is the American Executive doing about racism in the US?

Anything?

at all?

Is - is this like a spoof question or something?

a completely inoffensive name

06-22-2015, 09:40

I'm wondering if you do. (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-02-01/racial-equality-opportunity-gap/52923362/1) The South you want to reconstruct appears to be more caricature than reality (http://www.forbes.com/sites/joelkotkin/2015/01/15/the-cities-where-african-americans-are-doing-the-best-economically/), decades behind the curve (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/22/nyregion/many-black-new-yorkers-are-moving-to-the-south.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2&emc=eta1).

It's actually fascinating how close to Dylann Roof's line of reasoning you've come in this thread without even realizing it.
So I looked into the criteria that the studies based their findings and it is misleading imo. The worst cities are the worst because they are cities built around manufacturing which are now crumbling, or they are metropolitan areas which are super expensive to live in like Chicago, and LA. The south fares well under their criteria only because industry has moved there due to lack of unions and because the area has a much lower cost of living. I'm sure whites in the south are faring better than those in Detroit and Milwaukee at this point.

Edit: best example from the interactive map that was on the USA today article is the southern California rankings. Ventura county is ranked extremely high. Riverside county is ranked extremely high. LA county is ranked extremely low. Ventura and riverside area is generally where you go for cheap housing and a crappy commute. This study says nothing in particular about how black people are treated and everything to do with cost of living.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-22-2015, 13:13

Yes, it was intentionally over the top, but consider that being black is like wearing a star of david that you were born with and can't lay off in some areas. That might just be why some people want to change that.

Not universally true, I think, but even as it is true, the problem is universal to the US, not just the South.

I thought your point was that it can't be done quickly, NK just illustrates that it can be done if the will is there.

My point was that is cannot be done without committing great evil and therefore should not be attempted.

Prejudices, the human brain is just a somewhat more flexible computer with plenty of faults of its own. If one of them reads Ayn Rand it may become just as ruthless. A computer would merely have to lack the need to be superior to its peers in order to provide an improvement.

The human brain is infinitely more complex than any computer and we don't really understand how it works, how it produces conscience or conciousness.

a conscience is essentially for a ruler, especially an unrestrained Autocratic one.

Husar

06-22-2015, 13:59

Not universally true, I think, but even as it is true, the problem is universal to the US, not just the South.

I said "in some areas" thinking that this means it is not universally true and does also not include or exclude anywhere, but maybe I was wrong.

My point was that is cannot be done without committing great evil and therefore should not be attempted.

What if it can be done without great evil but takes 70 years or more?

The human brain is infinitely more complex than any computer and we don't really understand how it works, how it produces conscience or conciousness.

a conscience is essentially for a ruler, especially an unrestrained Autocratic one.

We had a thread on that subject... (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?146358-The-Blind-Brain-Theory-of-Consciousness-and-the-Consequences-of-Eliminativism&highlight=TTBS)
Also infinitely is a big word, it's probably just a matter of technological progress.

Greyblades

06-22-2015, 14:31

I wouldn't trust a computer to run a society, if you can't trust a man with power why would something made by man be any more trustworthy?

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-22-2015, 15:23

So, just pure sophistry then?

Sophistry implies I don't believe what I'm saying - I do - but I'm debating you for the benefit of everyone else, not for your benefit.

Get over it.

roflmao

You think wanting to eliminate all cultures and form One World Government isn't a totalitarian idea?

Now you're either equivocating or deeply-confused about how you are using the word "culture".

All our beliefs are a product of the culture we are raised in, modified by our personality and life experience. So if you want to "eliminate all cultures" that belief is a product of your cultural context - it's actually a not uncommon product of the culture of American Exceptionalism, which is itself the last gasp of the 19th Century "white Man's Burden".

Let me give you an example -

Murder - we often say that all societies condemn murder, but this is in fact not true. One example of this is the Thugee (from whence Thug), an Indian sub-culture/cult which worshipped Kali and went about murdering travellers.

I said "in some areas" thinking that this means it is not universally true and does also not include or exclude anywhere, but maybe I was wrong.

What if it can be done without great evil but takes 70 years or more?

We had a thread on that subject... (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?146358-The-Blind-Brain-Theory-of-Consciousness-and-the-Consequences-of-Eliminativism&highlight=TTBS)
Also infinitely is a big word, it's probably just a matter of technological progress.

Husar

06-22-2015, 15:51

I wouldn't trust a computer to run a society, if you can't trust a man with power why would something made by man be any more trustworthy?

It doesn't get tired, it doesn't get angry, it can take all choices into account and weigh them against one another without bias and so on.
Of course if you want to fully simulate a human brain, you'd have to simulate all these flaws as well, but why would you?
And it could even be able to develop and grow itself, take feedback into account in order to improve processes and decision making.

Greyblades

06-22-2015, 16:37

It doesn't get tired, it doesn't get angry, it can take all choices into account and weigh them against one another without bias and so on.
Of course if you want to fully simulate a human brain, you'd have to simulate all these flaws as well, but why would you?
And it could even be able to develop and grow itself, take feedback into account in order to improve processes and decision making.
It would by its very nature ìnherit the biases prejudices and moral code of the creator(s). without the inbuilt emotion and empathy that the human brain comes prepackaged with there is no real way to guarantee that it will overcome the flaws in its creation (which would be inevitable ina computer complex enough to run a society on its own).

Assuming that it isn't accidentally (or intentionally) programmed to view mankind as cattle or something, there's still the problem that once it was turned on and left to regulate itself it would eventually and inevitably succumb to programming flaws. I do not believe that humanity is capable of creating a perfect infallible computer code for something so complex, meaning that computer's programming will inevitably degrade whether it takes a year or a millenia to happen.

This could be remidied if it had some sort of human overseer or troubleshooter who can step in and fix it when these flaws present themselves but if it requires a human being to operate then you will effectively be giving control not to the computer but to the whims of the technician. In which case why bother giving up control of society?

Basically giving up all control to a god computer would be a nice idea but I do not trust humanity to make it without screwing it up and once rule of society ends up in the Computers control mankind will find reclaiming control harder the longer the computer has been operating.

Strike For The South

06-22-2015, 16:39

1. That infographic is the same one stormfront uses to recruit. The internet really is quite a small place after all. It's racist and misleading. Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

2. I think I was misconstrued. The civil war was the death throes of a way of life. Slavery was the center piece of that life, as Ironside pointed out with his google fu. However, in April 1865, it wasn't just that slavery that was destroyed. Post WWII that destruction was captured in academia for the first time and that is when you begin to see the use of the battle flag again. The modern use of the battle flag comes out of that lost cuasism of post war America. Using civil war era quotes to explain why the battle flag came back into prominence is not the way to go. The modern use of the battle flag is tied to the post war era and integration more than it is Antietam.

The idea you can change a few street names and some how "denazify" the feeling for a man like Robert E Lee makes me fear for this forums critical thinking skills. It is akin to the people flying the battle telling a black guy to get over slavery and segregation. You're just on the otherside.

Panzer is right. The standard liberal defense of high crime rates is quite frankly wrong and the fact it keeps getting parrotted is just ignorance. I think there are other reasons for the disparity and don't share his kind of social nihilism but to sit here and howl about how it's all about class is kind of uniquely European.

Ironside

06-22-2015, 19:32

2. I think I was misconstrued. The civil war was the death throes of a way of life. Slavery was the center piece of that life, as Ironside pointed out with his google fu. However, in April 1865, it wasn't just that slavery that was destroyed. Post WWII that destruction was captured in academia for the first time and that is when you begin to see the use of the battle flag again. The modern use of the battle flag comes out of that lost cuasism of post war America. Using civil war era quotes to explain why the battle flag came back into prominence is not the way to go. The modern use of the battle flag is tied to the post war era and integration more than it is Antietam.

The major issue is that the confederate flag got popular post WWII was because it was used as a symbol of North oppression of forcing the proud South to desegregate. In 1948 it got a symbol for the Dixiecrats, the Democrats that quit their party, because the Democrats adapted civil rights to blacks as an agenda.

Basically, the expression of pride of the South and state rights was wanting to keep segregation alive and kicking. There were no real separation on the issue.

To be fair, the Confederate had an older tradition of being used as a simple war flag. I'll probably would be needing more than google fu to see if it was a cool old flag or if it was a symbol to cleanse "the dagger in the back of the South".

The idea you can change a few street names and some how "denazify" the feeling for a man like Robert E Lee makes me fear for this forums critical thinking skills. It is akin to the people flying the battle telling a black guy to get over slavery and segregation. You're just on the otherside.

That would not be enough yeah. But dropping the support on the official state level would still be a marker.

Let me put it this way. How would you feel if the officially supported symbol for the state pride you have lived for generations are the same symbol used by people (with significant public support) wanting to have you treated as a lesser being? And that twice?

Panzer is right. The standard liberal defense of high crime rates is quite frankly wrong and the fact it keeps getting parrotted is just ignorance. I think there are other reasons for the disparity and don't share his kind of social nihilism but to sit here and howl about how it's all about class is kind of uniquely European.

Nah, it's racism and class in a nasty mixture. Then you get the counter-cultural development among the black as a response to that are quite unhealthy and also creates barriers. But to stop the neighbouring alien to bleed acid all over you, you have to stop stabbing him.

Beskar

06-22-2015, 19:45

Panzer is right. The standard liberal defense of high crime rates is quite frankly wrong and the fact it keeps getting parrotted is just ignorance. I think there are other reasons for the disparity and don't share his kind of social nihilism but to sit here and howl about how it's all about class is kind of uniquely European.

Actually, it is rather accurate. Though 'blacks' enjoy far less opportunities than the typical 'white' person, so there is some disparity and difference which complicates the matter further, but as a general theme, it is indeed the poverty and lack of opportunity which breeds those environments, and placing different 'races' into those same environments causes the same effect. In short, the liberal 'argument' is socioeconomical ranging in a wide breath of factors which result in the disparity.

The racial argument employed by Racists and their ilk is "because they got more melanin in their skin" is not only not right, it is not even wrong

a completely inoffensive name

06-22-2015, 19:59

First of all, the point I am making is one I am extrapolating from the views I have read and seen on TV. I wanted to open this thread with that specific point of view to prevent the same old talking points from arising. Second, the point about Denazification is not to eradicate the feelings towards Robert E Lee as a person but to dismantle the post war usage of him and his battle flag as a symbol of segregation and oppression. His name is used no longer as a reminder of brave soldiers doing their duty or as respect for a brilliant general, but as a symbol of the ideological fight to keep white supremacists. Third, the actual policy involves more than just renaming streets but a systematic government audit. And really, this is where I got confused at the responses about suppressing culture because it is about cleaning out the justice system, not about homogenizing the south.

Husar

06-22-2015, 21:26

There are actually people who say the flag is a symbol of slavery/segregation for the most part:

http://theweek.com/articles/562004/surprisingly-uncomplicated-racist-history-confederate-flag

Opposition to civil rights legislation, to integration, to miscegenation, to social equality for black people — these are the major plot points that make up the flag's recent history. Not Vietnam. Not opposition to Northern culture or values. Not tourism. Not ObamaCare. Not anything else.

Papewaio

06-22-2015, 23:45

Everybody who tried such a "radical reorganisation" is remembered a monster because everybody resisted and they had to kill thousands to cow the rest.

I think there are quite a few examples of reorganization that overall reduced friction within a nation. Look at the UK with both the Magna Carta and its derivatives, and the formation of the Church of England.

We remember the more violent changes that have occurred as that is often how we measure history. But there has been a lot of changes that have occurred over the last hundred years that haven't required killing off the old school followers.

In Australia we managed to include aboriginals as people in 1967 by referendum. We didn't then need to mass murder the opponents to the referendum to change things.

Most law is small layers of change and are often quite boring compared with the broad brush strokes of history.

For instance after seeing the impact of the American Civil War the Australian Consitution had it written in that secession is not an option to cut off any momentum. Note that Australia Federated in 1901 and inbetween the Civil War and that time we had a lot of Americans come in for the gold rush.

a completely inoffensive name

06-22-2015, 23:58

I never knew that about Australia, interesting fact.

Montmorency

06-23-2015, 05:19

You think wanting to eliminate all cultures and form One World Government isn't a totalitarian idea?

Nah, totalitarianism is the lashing-out of a weak and unstable autocracy. Once a mechanism is in place, salutary neglect comes into force.

All our beliefs are a product of the culture we are raised in, modified by our personality and life experience. So if you want to "eliminate all cultures" that belief is a product of your cultural context - it's actually a not uncommon product of the culture of American Exceptionalism, which is itself the last gasp of the 19th Century "white Man's Burden".

Here's a hint: Here on the Org we have our own culture. It was created by the Big Bang.

Let me give you an example -

Murder - we often say that all societies condemn murder, but this is in fact not true. One example of this is the Thugee (from whence Thug), an Indian sub-culture/cult which worshipped Kali and went about murdering travellers.

As far as I know, Thugees did not tolerate the murder of fellow Thugees - making them essentially indistinguishable from all the rest.

Papewaio

06-23-2015, 06:56

Confederate flag should be allowed to be used by Joe Citizen. With all the social consequences that entails.

For a government institution or employee should not show allegiance to it anymore then the WWI German Flag, WWII Japanese Flag, North Korean flag, Vietnamese flag or the Iraq one.

It should not be honored by local, state or federal. As a dual citizen I understand multiple allegences. Country, state, sports team (All Blacks btw). However one should not show allegences to enemies of your country. And a failed rebellion is an enemy that should not be revered by government insitutions. Particularly if most of the uses of the flag is still used in anti-federal ideas and also by persons in promoting an unconstitutional creed (All men not created equal).

Fragony

06-23-2015, 07:31

Nice and balanced. Isn't it also a symbol of a motorgang, the local bikers-pub here is full of confederate-flags. Motorgangs are 'cool', flag can mean anything. In this case big bikes and big beards.

Husar

06-23-2015, 09:02

Nice and balanced. Isn't it also a symbol of a motorgang, the local bikers-pub here is full of confederate-flags. Motorgangs are 'cool', flag can mean anything. In this case big bikes and big beards.

I would assume they use it as a symbol of rebellion against authority/the government as they are often also criminals. It is also quite well known that a lot of these gangs are involved in modern slavery themselves, so their use of the flag does not exactly make it seem more harmless. You might think the smaller clubs are not as criminal as the bigger ones but quite a few of them seem to be allied with the bigger ones of sorts. I came across a local club here I'd never heard of before but they supported the Banditos or so all over their Facebook page...

Fragony

06-23-2015, 09:23

Probably right about the rebel-part. I don't know how criminal these gangs are, I don't think the police knows either. As far as I know they don't cause a lot of trouble in plain sight at least. But it's kinda 'rock', people who have nothing to do with this still have these flags, they are not a rare sight in rock-bars.

Gilrandir

06-23-2015, 17:06

In Australia we managed to include aboriginals as people in 1967 by referendum. We didn't then need to mass murder the opponents to the referendum to change things.

That's because no Robert E. Lee was in evidence among the aboriginals.

Motorgangs are 'cool', flag can mean anything. In this case big bikes and big beards.
You forgot the big bellies.

Kadagar_AV

06-23-2015, 18:51

Actually, it is rather accurate. Though 'blacks' enjoy far less opportunities than the typical 'white' person, so there is some disparity and difference which complicates the matter further

They do? Last I checked blacks get into good schools and universities not because they deserve it compared to the other applicants, but because they are black.

There is a load of well meaning projects and programs to help blacks, as well.

To be honest, at least here in Sweden and reportedly in the US as well, blacks actually often have an advantage.

but as a general theme, it is indeed the poverty and lack of opportunity which breeds those environments, and placing different 'races' into those same environments causes the same effect.

Why are blacks poor? Is it because everyone is evil and hold them back, or because they just don't have the same value on the work market of western societies as white or asian people - because of genetical and cultural factors?

In short, the liberal 'argument' is socioeconomical ranging in a wide breath of factors which result in the disparity.

Leftists always want to point to a "myriad of factors". Why not make it simple? Blacks generally have higher testosterone, less impulse control, and generally lower intelligence.

None of these traits are much valued in most professions, so blacks often become "the underclass" socio-economically. Is that fair? Nope, but then the world isn't. So deal with it and stop asking for exceptions because of race.

The racial argument employed by Racists and their ilk is "because they got more melanin in their skin" is not only not right, it is not even wrong

I call BS.

I don't think racists care much about the amount of melanin in their skin. I think they care about other genetical factors more involving the brain... Also, culture is a BIG issue.

Honestly speaking I very much dislike the culture I have seen around blacks, both in Europe and in the US. They just don't seem to contribute much to a western society - and generally get in direct conflict with it. NO MATTER how much money, time or energy you waste on them.

I have tried to myself, but these days I have just given up. They are just not worth my efforts in the long run, I spend it better elsewhere.

Sarmatian

06-23-2015, 21:31

They do? Last I checked blacks get into good schools and universities not because they deserve it compared to the other applicants, but because they are black.

There is a load of well meaning projects and programs to help blacks, as well.

To be honest, at least here in Sweden and reportedly in the US as well, blacks actually often have an advantage.

They don't.

Why are blacks poor? Is it because everyone is evil and hold them back, or because they just don't have the same value on the work market of western societies as white or asian people - because of genetical and cultural factors?

For the most part, yes.

The modern US were built after the Great Depression. After that and ww2, middle class of America was born. The basis of that was the New Deal, which was about large scale public work projects and cheap houses (United States Housing Authority) (simplified version). During that time, blacks in America were for the first time given an opportunity to work and be beneficiaries of public funded projects. Mind you, that doesn't mean they were equal. They were still underrepresented and they received lower pay for the same work. On the other hand, they were almost completely excluded from the other part - affordable houses. They were simply regarded as not being creditworthy, just because they were black. It had nothing to do with income, type of job, or education.

In the 50's, 60's and partly 70's, the price of houses was rising, allowing whites to take a mortgage on their houses, which many did. That money was used to start a business or educate children. Blacks weren't able to do that simply because they didn't own their houses.

Even much later, during 80's and 90's, it was harder for blacks than whites to acquire a loan from the banks. Banks tended to lend to low income whites rather than middle income blacks. Investigative journalist Bill Dedman received Pulitzer's prize for his series of articles called "Color of Money" (http://powerreporting.com/color/) in 1989, in which he showed the extent of it in Atlanta.

Just take a look at the picture

15659

Leftists always want to point to a "myriad of factors". Why not make it simple? Blacks generally have higher testosterone, less impulse control, and generally lower intelligence.

Because making it simple in the way you're trying to portray is like killing Jews because they brought plague to Europe. Why blame on the myriad of factors, like poor education, poor understanding of medicine, poor hygiene, germs, lack of sanitation... It's simple - the Jews are to blame.

None of these traits are much valued in most professions, so blacks often become "the underclass" socio-economically. Is that fair? Nope, but then the world isn't. So deal with it and stop asking for exceptions because of race.

As Beskar said - this is not even wrong.

I call BS.

I don't think racists care much about the amount of melanin in their skin. I think they care about other genetical factors more involving the brain... Also, culture is a BIG issue.

Honestly speaking I very much dislike the culture I have seen around blacks, both in Europe and in the US. They just don't seem to contribute much to a western society - and generally get in direct conflict with it. NO MATTER how much money, time or energy you waste on them.

I have tried to myself, but these days I have just given up. They are just not worth my efforts in the long run, I spend it better elsewhere.

And there simply isn't a single serious research to confirm that view.

Culture is a factor. Genes aren't. Whites are responsible for the most part for those cultural problems. There still is institutionalized racism. Those are the facts. Deal with them.

Greyblades

06-23-2015, 21:59

Culture is a factor. Genes aren't. Whites are responsible for the most part for those cultural problems. There still is institutionalized racism. Those are the facts. Deal with them.

Give me an example of institutional racism that has survived to the present day.

Sarmatian

06-23-2015, 22:17

Give me an example of institutional racism that has survived to the present day.

More whites use cocaine than blacks. 80-90% of people going to jail for the use of cocaine are blacks.

Kadagar_AV

06-23-2015, 22:27

Kadagar_AV

06-23-2015, 22:29

More whites use cocaine than blacks. 80-90% of people going to jail for the use of cocaine are blacks.

Can it be explained with whites BEHAVING better, even when drugged?

As an example, when I smoked weed we used to go out and play frisbee golf...

My black co-workers during the same time would smoke weed, go to bars, and harass white girls...

No wonder that the police would crack down harder on the latter group.

rvg

06-23-2015, 22:30

More whites use cocaine than blacks. 80-90% of people going to jail for the use of cocaine are blacks.

For crack? Perhaps, because most whites don't do crack. Just like most blacks don't do crystal meth. However if you looks at overall drug incarceration rate, blacks make up about 40% of inmates.

Greyblades

06-23-2015, 22:30

More whites use cocaine than blacks. 80-90% of people going to jail for the use of cocaine are blacks.
Ok.

Now prove that it is the insitution causing this.

Husar

06-23-2015, 22:47

Ok.

Now prove that it is the insitution causing this.

There was this report by the US ministry of law or something that basically said the institution called police targets blacks unfairly in at least that one troublesome city. People who don't just read racist nazi blogs should know what I'm talking about.

Greyblades

06-23-2015, 22:55

Nice implication.

Regardless. Present it.

Kadagar_AV

06-23-2015, 23:21

There was this report by the US ministry of law or something that basically said the institution called police targets blacks unfairly in at least that one troublesome city. People who don't just read racist nazi blogs should know what I'm talking about.

So police in one city in the world were bad against blacks...

Yeah, now I totally see why we would get blacks off of common decent behaviour :dizzy2:

On a further note...

I don't mind the police targeting blacks more, when the blacks commit more crime...

Say that you have a population of a hundred blacks, and a hundred whites...

Of the whites 2/100 will commit serious crimes.

Of the blacks 10/100 will commit serious crimes.

Shouldn't the police then spend 5 times as much effort on monitoring the black population? At least this is the problem in Sweden... When the police target crime ridden groups, they get hit with the racism-card at once.

As an example, recently the police where found having a register of our gypsies explaining family ties, close connections and so on... The police were hit HARD because of racism...

Nevermind that the gypsies here is ALL ABOUT parasitizing on the host society...

Of course they should be targeted, they are a cancer in an orderly society!!

Husar

06-23-2015, 23:27

Nice implication.

Regardless. Present it.

Find it yourself.
You were able to find all the wrong arguments, now use your abilities to find the good ones.

So police in one city in the world were bad against blacks...

Use common sense, it's not just happening in one city.

Greyblades

06-23-2015, 23:36

Find it yourself.
You were able to find all the wrong arguments, now use your abilities to find the good ones.

Half your post are trolling, and you have a habit of throwing a tantrum when you are challenged to back up the rest, no wonder I have come to doubt every claim you make.

Kadagar_AV

06-23-2015, 23:39

Find it yourself.
You were able to find all the wrong arguments, now use your abilities to find the good ones.

Why don't you?

I can once again point to a myriad of evidence of blacks being more stupid than whites, or east asians... Can you find anything, like any research at all, that would confirm that blacks are just as intelligent as east asians - or even whites?

Use common sense, it's not just happening in one city.

Police probably are more focused on blacks in most cities, to be honest.

Now, is that because of racism or because of genetical / cultural differences? You have some sort of for you politically correct way of looking at this, it seems...

But where are the facts?

FACT 1: Blacks from poor countries tend to do really, really bad in western societies...

Fact 2: East Asians from poor countries tend to do really well in western societies...

Want to explain "socioeconomic factors" again? Puh-Leeze...

Some are smart, some or dumb. That's just the way the world is :shrug:

Strike For The South

06-24-2015, 04:01

I suppose I have been meandering around my point for too long. The South has always been burdened with a disproportionate amount of American sin. The American flag flew over slaves, Imperialism, and genocide. Union commanders went on to massacre Indians in the west less than decade after the war. Outside of a few abolitionists, everyone was a frothing at the mouth racist. Racism was just as bad in the north through the civil rights movement, look at the Boston bus riots or MLK jr's attempts to organize the black population of Chicago.

So, Why is the American flag any different than the battle flag one? Maybe it represents hope, that is what I like to think. The flag represents all of our past sins but also all of our hopes and dreams. The flags past can not change, but its future has to be molded. The battle flag on the other hand remains stagnant, an ugly relic of a shameful and calamitous past. However, on some of my grumpier days I think the deference to the flag may be more of the product of might makes right. It sits on top if only because it is the victor.

I know Dylan Roofs family were German immigrants whom came here after the war. I know he shares a kinship with apartheid era Rhodesia and South Africa something that has nothing to do with America. His manifesto looks like a rip off of common neo nazi tropes that can be found all over the internet. He does not care about this land, only his warped views of hierarchy based on melanin content. So everyone from Amazon to Wal-mart will shake their finger and get kudos for taking away merchandise but nothing will change.

We won't talk about why another American decided to act out in a mass shooting. We won't have a frank discussion about race. We won't even broach the subject of angry young men being seduced be delusional ideas. We will simply pin it on the battle flag and the south, while the seat gets a little heavier as more sin is added to it.

Edit: I don't even like the flag. I am a dyed in the wool Federalist and small "r" republican. My family were unionists and I am immensely proud of that fact. I recognize one flag. I consider the battle flag treason.

Edit 2: There seems to be some confusion as to who his ancestors actually were. I'll leave mypost for now but change it if something comes up

PanzerJaeger

06-24-2015, 04:12

That was Panzer who did that.

Not my intention. Your call for revisiting Reconstruction just seemed to lack a measure of logical consistency.

This study says nothing in particular about how black people are treated and everything to do with cost of living.

Well, yes, it does require a modest amount of reading between the lines. The South is the only region in America with a growing - both in number and affluence - black middle class, independent and well regarded black educational and social institutions, and large scale black political leadership - leading to considerable in-migration, by far the largest black population growth in the country. Unlike the culture of dependency present in the Northeast and certain West Coast cities, blacks in the South have built businesses, wealth, and a society on their own, which has actually allowed a number of them to escape the cycle of poverty we're conditioned to believe 'institutional racism' keeps blacks in forever. You'll never see the kind of rioting in the South that you did in Baltimore or LA, because the blacks in the South actually have a vested interest in the society they've built (I'll refrain from sharing an opinion on the quality of that society). The economy is doing better than the Rust Belt, sure, but it's definitely not booming throughout most of the South. Thus, the insidious racism you describe either isn't all that insidious or not what you believe it to be. Appeals to some caricature of what popular culture thinks the South is based on events that took place 50 years ago are always fun, but demographics don't lie.

The racial argument employed by Racists and their ilk is "because they got more melanin in their skin"

Don't forget those troublesome IQ scores...

Sarmatian

06-24-2015, 08:08

Sarmatian,

First of all, you never heard of affirmative action? Blacks DO have benefits when it comes to education.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/education/affirmative-action-overview.aspx

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action#United_States

Dude, wake up.

Dude, read the links you provided. Do you understand waht affirmative action is?

Affirmative action policies often focus on employment and education. In institutions of higher education, affirmative action refers to admission policies that provide equal access to education for those groups that have been historically excluded or underrepresented, such as women and minorities.

Also, NO, saying black people become a problem in the western societies is NOT equal to saying one should kill all jews. It also isn't the same as saying one should kill black people.

It isn't the same as killing Jews, but it is the same old principle of going for the easy answer, instead of assessing all the issues.

My point is that black people more often are problematic and I for one DO NOT want black culture around me. Just like I don't want Arab culture around me.

Why? Because I am white, I am a westerner, and I quite dislike their way of life.

Sure, they are free to HAVE that way of life. They can do whatever they want.

As_long_as_it_isn't_around_me.

If you really think blacks want their kids to grow up in a ghetto or be part of a gang, you really need to do your research better.

Also... Did I read your right? You agree that blacks become the underclass in western societies because of genetical and cultural factors?

There are cultural factors, not genetic. Those cultural factors are a result of a long time of oppression.

Research on black peoples intelligence is shunned... So far you are right.

However, research HAS been made, and it all conforms to the popular belief that blacks tend to be on the lower end of the bell curve when it comes to academic intelligence.

I can point at a few examples and studies showing blacks are generally more challenged on the intellectual scene...

Can you show me sources showing they are on par with whites when it comes to IQ?

Can you show me studies showing blacks are on par with east asians?

Heck, can you show me studies saying whites are or par with east asians?

Go to MENSA and ask them to explain IQ to you. Intelligence isn't something we fully understand, but it is connected to the education. To have a meaningful study, you would have to pick a statistically significant sample of people of similar background and education.

All the evidence I have seen show:

East Asians > Whites > Blacks.

Also, of course there are institutionalised worries about choosing black people for a position when you could have a white one. I totally understand this worry too, I for one would always hire someone white unless the black person clearly had more experience and former work credit.

Why?

Because I have had a lot of problems with blacks, and way less problem with whites.

Is that racist, or just a result of life experience?

"For the past century raw scores on IQ tests have been rising; this score increase is known as the "Flynn effect," named after Jim Flynn. In the United States, the increase was continuous and approximately linear from the earliest years of testing to about 1998 when the gains stopped and some tests even showed decreasing test scores. For example, in the United States the average scores of blacks on some IQ tests in 1995 were the same as the scores of whites in 1945.[55] Flynn has argued that given that these changes take place between one generation and the next it is highly unlikely that genetic factors could account for the increasing scores, which must then be caused by environmental factors. "

With better access to education and more integration into society, blacks are suddenly getting more intelligent?

Can it be explained with whites BEHAVING better, even when drugged?

As an example, when I smoked weed we used to go out and play frisbee golf...

My black co-workers during the same time would smoke weed, go to bars, and harass white girls...

No wonder that the police would crack down harder on the latter group.

No. Anecdotal evidence. I have white friends who play Risk when high, and those who go to bars and harass girls.

For crack? Perhaps, because most whites don't do crack. Just like most blacks don't do crystal meth. However if you looks at overall drug incarceration rate, blacks make up about 40% of inmates.

Which proves my point as whites use more drugs overall.

Ok.

Now prove that it is the insitution causing this.

No, it's a clerical error.

Spend a few hours on it. You will find that it is present almost everywhere. Blacks get harsher punishments than whites for comparable crimes. They get paid less for comparable work. They pay more interest for credits...

Beskar

06-24-2015, 08:50

Don't forget those troublesome IQ scores...

IQ measures IQ, not intelligence, and it's flaws are very well documented, especially with cultural bias. Even then, many factors such as diet play a more significant influence on the physical and mental develop than melanin content. Your commen means nothing.

- Comes from guy with IQ of 167.

Greyblades

06-24-2015, 11:38

No, it's a clerical error.

Spend a few hours on it. You will find that it is present almost everywhere. Blacks get harsher punishments than whites for comparable crimes. They get paid less for comparable work. They pay more interest for credits...
I have been told such plenty of times, it's just that in havent seen proof, just repeated assertations. That would be fine if I could trust those making that assertion but recent events have taught me otherwise.

One of my doubts are; if the law allows black people to be paid less for comparative work than whites, why on earth would unemployment ever be a problem in black communities? Indeed if american companies could get cheaper labour from african americans, wouldnt they go out of thier way to exploit such an advantage?

Now if this is illegal, yet happens anyway, well, I still require proof that it happens in any signficant degree and is being allowed to happen with impunity.

Sarmatian

06-24-2015, 13:58

I have been told such plenty of times, it's just that in havent seen proof, just repeated assertations. That would be fine if I could trust those making that assertion but recent events have taught me otherwise.

http://freakonomics.com/2011/10/06/explaining-the-black-white-wage-gap/

Blacks have lower starting pay than whites of comparable skill and experience. It get's better the longer a black employee stays with the same employer. If they switch jobs, they again start with lower income than whites, which gets better (closer to white employes but almost never equal) the longer they stay on that job.

This doesn't even take into affect how much harder it is for blacks to be promoted to higher positions.

One of my doubts are; if the law allows black people to be paid less for comparative work than whites, why on earth would unemployment ever be a problem in black communities? Indeed if american companies could get cheaper labour from african americans, wouldnt they go out of thier way to exploit such an advantage?

Because racism? The very thing we're talking about?

Now if this is illegal, yet happens anyway, well, I still require proof that it happens in any signficant degree and is being allowed to happen with impunity.

It's not illegal. Private companies don't have to have pay every worker the exact same amount. This is especially true for higher position ie. managers/supervisors/directors/heads of departments.

Greyblades

06-24-2015, 15:15

http://freakonomics.com/2011/10/06/explaining-the-black-white-wage-gap/Hrm it used this (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0882775.html)to come to the conclusion that "black men in America earned 74.5 percent of a typical white man’s wage; black women earned 69.6 percent."
The table presented is a basic median table, one that should be very familiar to those following the woman's wage gap debate.

Like in that debate this table is usless: without differentiating between individual jobs we have no idea if it is caused by A) discrimiation of the employers paying non white workers less than white workers for the same labour or B) on average non white workers apply for or work in jobs that pay less than the average white worker applys for.

If POC's were being discriminated against on every level or simply going for lower paying jobs at a higher rate than white people are, we wouldnt be able to tell as table's results would be the same.

Blacks have lower starting pay than whites of comparable skill and experience. It get's better the longer a black employee stays with the same employer. If they switch jobs, they again start with lower income than whites, which gets better (closer to white employes but almost never equal) the longer they stay on that job. The article estimates that Blacks have a "7 percent lower reservation wage than their white counterparts at a comparable job that demands a comparable skill level."

Reservation wage's meaning: "In labor economics, the reservation wage is the lowest wage rate at which a worker would be willing to accept a particular type of job. A job offer involving the same type of work and the same working conditions, but at a lower wage rate, would be rejected by the worker."

It tells us what the workers were willing to settle for, not what the employers were offering.

This doesn't even take into affect how much harder it is for blacks to be promoted to higher positions. How so?

Because racism? The very thing we're talking about?You think all of the companies in the USA would pass up such cheap labour because they are racist?

It's not illegal. Private companies don't have to have pay every worker the exact same amount. This is especially true for higher position ie. managers/supervisors/directors/heads of departments.
So how do you come to the conclusion that POC's are being discriminated against because of thier race instead of thier average ability? It could simply be that POC's are being underpaid in comparison because the education they received was of a lesser standard than the average white person's.

Gilrandir

06-24-2015, 16:47

IQ measures IQ, not intelligence, and it's flaws are very well documented, especially with cultural bias.
IQ tests are not obligatory nor really common in Ukraine, so I had never had it for any utilitarian purpose. When I did it just for fun (without any preliminary training or awareness of what I would face), I found that it tried to gauge "math type" of intelligence which, to my mind, disadvantages a "humanities intelligent" person.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-24-2015, 17:06

I think there are quite a few examples of reorganization that overall reduced friction within a nation. Look at the UK with both the Magna Carta and its derivatives, and the formation of the Church of England.

Well, John signed Magna Carter at sword point and it and its "derivatives" continues to be an issue until Charles II took the throne in the Restoration after the brutal oppression of the Republic. As to the Church of England - many protestants and Catholics were burned at the stake during its birth and Catholicism continued to be officially suppressed until about a hundred and fifty years ago - so those were not "peaceful" changes.

We remember the more violent changes that have occurred as that is often how we measure history. But there has been a lot of changes that have occurred over the last hundred years that haven't required killing off the old school followers.

That's true, but only in the last hundred - really the last fifty - years.

In Australia we managed to include aboriginals as people in 1967 by referendum. We didn't then need to mass murder the opponents to the referendum to change things.

This is also true, but Aboriginals were never sub-human slaves and are still discriminated against today - a lot of them also still lead wretched lives having been forcibly removed from their hunting grounds onto reservations.

Sarmatian

06-24-2015, 17:35

Hrm it used this (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0882775.html)to come to the conclusion that "black men in America earned 74.5 percent of a typical white man’s wage; black women earned 69.6 percent."
The table presented is a basic median table, one that should be very familiar to those following the woman's wage gap debate.

Like in that debate this table is usless: without differentiating between individual jobs we have no idea if it is caused by A) discrimiation of the employers paying non white workers less than white workers for the same labour or B) on average non white workers apply for or work in jobs that pay less than the average white worker applys for.

If POC's were being discriminated against on every level or simply going for lower paying jobs at a higher rate than white people are, we wouldnt be able to tell as table's results would be the same.

I don't know how carefully you read the article. The article is about the scientific study that show that black earn less than whites for comparable jobs while having comparable skill, experience and education.

That "black men in America earned 74.5 percent of a typical white man’s wage; black women earned 69.6 percent." is just an opening statement and later it goes on to explain one of the reasons why it is so.

The article estimates that Blacks have a "7 percent lower reservation wage than their white counterparts at a comparable job that demands a comparable skill level."

Reservation wage's meaning: "In labor economics, the reservation wage is the lowest wage rate at which a worker would be willing to accept a particular type of job. A job offer involving the same type of work and the same working conditions, but at a lower wage rate, would be rejected by the worker."

It tells us what the workers were willing to settle for, not what the employers were offering.

One of many points. The most important is "Throughout their research, the authors verified a story arc in which employers discriminate against blacks in terms of initial wage..."

and "The study shows that although the black-white wage gap widens by .9 percentage points per year of potential labor market experience..."

How so?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2014/10/09/high-tech-pay-gap-hispanics-asians-african-americans/16606121/

"In the same high-skilled positions such as computer programmers and software developers, Asians make $8,146 less than whites and blacks $3,656 less than whites, according to the report from the American Institute for Economic Research."

You think all of the companies in the USA would pass up such cheap labour because they are racist?

They don't see it that way, there's hidden and open bias. Take our resident racist, Kadagar. He wouldn't employ a black person because he believes they lack work ethic and are less intelligent. In his opinion, white worker would be more productive and thus a better option, even with higher salary. That would be open bias. There's hidden or subconscious bias, in which the employer would be subconsciously discriminating against blacks.

So how do you come to the conclusion that POC's are being discriminated against because of thier race instead of thier average ability? It could simply be that POC's are being underpaid in comparison because the education they received was of a lesser standard than the average white person's.

That is the standard racist response. They're paid less because they're less educated, lack work ethic or aren't as intelligent. That's why I didn't want to talk about overall gap, but specifically about wage gap for comparable jobs.

You can also read about discrimination when receiving benefits, in courts, when dealing with the police and so on...

rvg

06-24-2015, 17:54

We can't seriously talk about having achieved equality in America until a black man becomes president.

Beskar

06-24-2015, 17:56

They don't see it that way, there's hidden and open bias. Take our resident racist, Kadagar. He wouldn't employ a black person because he believes they lack work ethic and are less intelligent.

There is a employer on this forum who confessed to throwing applications in the bin due to having 'immigrant' names' and said they wouldn't have employed another from the forum due to their name, even though they are not a immigrant in the country. (Their father is). It is rather sad these things happen.

You can also read about discrimination when receiving benefits, in courts, when dealing with the police and so on...

Few cases in the UK such as Stephen Lawrence case by the police, even the David Bennett inquiry within the NHS. They are disgusting examples of a certain progressive's rational logical-based society in action.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-24-2015, 18:21

There is a employer on this forum who confessed to throwing applications in the bin due to having 'immigrant' names' and said they wouldn't have employed another forum due to their name, even though they are not a immigrant in the country. (Their father is). It is rather sad these things happen.

Few cases in the UK such as Stephen Lawrence case by the police, even the David Bennett inquiry within the NHS. They are disgusting examples of a certain progressive's rational logical-based society in action.

You mean "Frag said..." don't you? Also, wasn't it Hax he said he wouldn't employ?

Let's not insinuate if it's a matter of public record, eh?

As to the other - I'm sorry but Stepehn Lawrence, a tragedy though it was, was almost a quarter of a century ago now.. It's not a bad example but it needs to be backed up by more recent ones.

Kadagar_AV

06-24-2015, 19:35

Sarmatian,

First of all, people can have the same job and qualifications, but yet they don't work the same. Heck, compare me to the sad **** sitting next to me in the teacher's lounge..

We have the same qualifications.
We have the same job.

Her kids score below standard on national tests and she has a lot of unruly pupils.

My kids score WELL above standard and I have the only class without a single pupil sent to the principal.

Is it just because I have a good class? Probably not, as the results were the same with the class before... And before that...

Now, I earn more than her. By quite some.

Is it because:

A) She is arab and I am white.
B) She is a woman and I am a male.
C) She doesn't do as good a job as I.

Hmmm, tricky question, no?

My point is, we can't just look at figures and say "blacks earn less than they should".

How come it's so hard for you to even have the IDEA that they might earn less because they do a less good job? As have been mentioned over and over again in this thread: IF blacks did a comparable job for lower salary, for sure companies on a free market would jump on the chance!!

Yet they don't... Why?

Oh yes... "racism"....

I ask again: Can you separate racism from life experience?

I was very immigrant friendly growing up, in my teens, and in my very early twenties... HOWEVER, life experience has made me think less of Africans generally. Why? Because they so often have let me down, in various situations.

See, a wellfare society is built on the idea that you and I... Your family and my family... My town and your town... All have a history of working together and trying to build a for us functional society.

This leads to a belief that when hard times comes, they will act towards me in a socially acceptable way, just as I would support them when they are hit.

Now: Insert a black woman screaming about more wellfare for her single-mom nine kids while she lives on 35 square meters... Imagine she raise them really ill... Imagine she wrecks the shared laundry room... Imagine her kids are using the bushes on the playground as their toilet (not just beeing, mind you).

Is this a person I want to lean on when the hard times comes? Nope. And hence blacks don't work in a wellfare society (other racial groups do though, so it's not about WHITE PWR).

Throw in some blacks with no history of working together, with cultural clashes left and right, and yes... You will see "racism" rise.

I ask again though, what's life experience and what's racism? Again, I have started to frown on blacks in western society because of what I have experienced by being around blacks... NOT because I was raised that way or taught that way.

On the contrary, my whole family and general workplace more or less look for the tar and feathers whenever immigration gets mentioned in anything but positive ways.

I for one would SURELY hire a swede before a black if they had equal qualifications. Why? Because the swedish person have an extra benefit: Me assuming he will act in accordance with our culture when hard times come.

About IQ... Yes IQ isn't the same as academic ability... With that said, there is a STRONG connection between the two. Also tests have been done to the genetical levels... And know what, when they checked what genes make people excel in school, it exactly corresponded with the results of IQ tests...

Asians being the smartest, whites in the middle, blacks in the far back end of the scale.

So yes, even though IQ in and of itself isn't enough to get a clear picture, we still HAVE the complete picture.

WHITES. ARE. NOT. AS. INTELLIGENT. AS. EAST. ASIANS.

I can take that fact, I have no problem with that fact.

But DARE say anything realistic about blacks, and the "nazi" baseball bat will hit you at once, from well meaning but utterly stupid people.

Husar,

I can once again point to a myriad of evidence of blacks being more stupid than whites, or east asians... Can you find anything, like any research at all, that would confirm that blacks are just as intelligent as east asians - or even whites?

I ask the same question again then...

Can you show any study saying blacks are as intelligent as others? Heck, can you find a study saying whites are as intelligent as east asians?

Again the PC side is just full of empty words...

Also, if we are on the subject of "horrible race motivated attacks"... Does anyone know how often whites kill blacks, compared to blacks killing whites in the US?

I have no idea, might look it up later... But I am pretty sure this school murder on blacks did absolutely nothing to change the statistics, and I am sure the statistics clearly say blacks attack whites WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY more often than the other way around.

What do I base it on? My experience with blacks, and whites... Both in Europe and over the world...

Am I even wrong?

Beskar

06-24-2015, 20:22

As to the other - I'm sorry but Stepehn Lawrence, a tragedy though it was, was almost a quarter of a century ago now.. It's not a bad example but it needs to be backed up by more recent ones.

It was an example of what institutional racism is, doesn't need to be more recent for that purpose.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-24-2015, 20:57

It was an example of what institutional racism is, doesn't need to be more recent for that purpose.

Except that it may no longer be relevant to the UK.

You could argue that there's still institutional racism against Blacks in the UK, but you could also argue it's the result of profiling. It's rather like Arabs being stopped at airports - there certainly are white jihadi terrorists but there are more arab ones.

Fragony

06-24-2015, 21:10

There is a employer on this forum who confessed to throwing applications in the bin due to having 'immigrant' names' and said they wouldn't have employed another from the forum due to their name, even though they are not a immigrant in the country. (Their father is). It is rather sad these things happen

Won't denie I did, but please consider, you have no defence against the unlimited funds that come into play if they cast discriminatus. Sorry if I just avoided the problems I could have gotten myself into, why volunteer to have them? I wasn't an employer by the way I was looking for staff for others

Sarmatian

06-24-2015, 21:12

Sarmatian,

First of all, people can have the same job and qualifications, but yet they don't work the same. Heck, compare me to the sad **** sitting next to me in the teacher's lounge..

We have the same qualifications.
We have the same job.

Her kids score below standard on national tests and she has a lot of unruly pupils.

My kids score WELL above standard and I have the only class without a single pupil sent to the principal.

Is it just because I have a good class? Probably not, as the results were the same with the class before... And before that...

Now, I earn more than her. By quite some.

Is it because:

A) She is arab and I am white.
B) She is a woman and I am a male.
C) She doesn't do as good a job as I.

Hmmm, tricky question, no?

That doesn't mean anything except that you're better than her. I'm not arguing that every individual is equally good at every job.

My point is, we can't just look at figures and say "blacks earn less than they should".

How come it's so hard for you to even have the IDEA that they might earn less because they do a less good job? As have been mentioned over and over again in this thread: IF blacks did a comparable job for lower salary, for sure companies on a free market would jump on the chance!!

Yet they don't... Why?

Oh yes... "racism"....

I ask again: Can you separate racism from life experience?

I was very immigrant friendly growing up, in my teens, and in my very early twenties... HOWEVER, life experience has made me think less of Africans generally. Why? Because they so often have let me down, in various situations.

Because life experience is poor substitute for big picture.

Throw in some blacks with no history of working together, with cultural clashes left and right, and yes... You will see "racism" rise.

I ask again though, what's life experience and what's racism? Again, I have started to frown on blacks in western society because of what I have experienced by being around blacks... NOT because I was raised that way or taught that way.

On the contrary, my whole family and general workplace more or less look for the tar and feathers whenever immigration gets mentioned in anything but positive ways.

I for one would SURELY hire a swede before a black if they had equal qualifications. Why? Because the swedish person have an extra benefit: Me assuming he will act in accordance with our culture when hard times come.

And this here children, is the example of racism, which gives you an answer to your question why companies don't hire black people to lower cost.

About IQ... Yes IQ isn't the same as academic ability... With that said, there is a STRONG connection between the two. Also tests have been done to the genetical levels... And know what, when they checked what genes make people excel in school, it exactly corresponded with the results of IQ tests...

Asians being the smartest, whites in the middle, blacks in the far back end of the scale.

So yes, even though IQ in and of itself isn't enough to get a clear picture, we still HAVE the complete picture.

Entire point of racial IQ fails so hard when you take into account that black people scoring higher on IQ as they're getting more access to higher and better education. So, either they've improved genetically in one or two generations, or the idea how certain "races" have lower or higher IQ needs to be put to rest.

WHITES. ARE. NOT. AS. INTELLIGENT. AS. EAST. ASIANS.

Bollox.

I can take that fact, I have no problem with that fact.

But DARE say anything realistic about blacks, and the "nazi" baseball bat will hit you at once, from well meaning but utterly stupid people.

Realistic meaning racist in this case.

Beskar

06-24-2015, 21:34

Won't denie I did, but please consider, you have no defence against the unlimited funds that come into play if they cast discriminatus. Sorry if I just avoided the problems I could have gotten myself into, why volunteer to have them? I wasn't an employer by the way I was looking for staff for others

If I remember correctly, you said it was in the past and you regretted it anyway. Wasn't trying to make a shot against you, just saying that the practice was real.

Kadagar_AV

06-24-2015, 22:07

Sarmatian,

So you do NOT argue that everyone is equal at their job, yet you expect everyone to be paid equally for their job?

Uuuuuuuuuuh, I don't think you fully grasped how the work market function.

Also, you mean that life experience is a poor substitute for a big picture?

How is that relevant? If enough people have a LIFE EXPERIENCE of blacks not being what you should bet on in an intellectual arena or on the work market, it does become the big picture, no?

I mean, enough people who look down on black society and it will be a problem at large, you have to agree with this, right?

Now, here is where we differ:

Your look: It's because of racism.
My look: It's because people in a free market often prefer not to have blacks around because of life experience.

Is that what is called "institutionalised racism"? That people have had different experiences with different cultural groups?

Eye opener, as long as it is DIFFERENT cultural groups, people will be rather more sceptical to cultures other than their own. That's just how humans work, and there's nothing you or any well meaning person can do about it.

And why are we sceptical? Because other cultures does absolutely HORRIBLE things that we could never even imagine us doing ourselves.

So yeah I dislike black culture at large. Sue me?

Furthermore, your example of what "racism" is - seriously that someone would prefer to hire someone from the same culture? Why would they not? I trust a Swede or Austrian wayyyyy more than I would a random black, or gypsy, or whatever...

Culture is all about expecting someone to act in a socially and acceptable predictable way when hardships come... I don't trust effin africans to act in a for me socially predictable and acceptable way. Why? BECAUSE THEY ARE AFRICANS AND FROM ANOTHER CULTURE, geez, what's so hard to understand?

So you call bollox on east asians being smarter than whites... Source please? You kind of come of as ill read up on the topic here... To be honest...

East asians are smarter, live with it. Heck, I just read an article about asians applying to top notch schools and universities have to DOWNGRADE their "asianess" to get in...

There was also this indian wannabe doctor who decided to apply as a black person, so that he could get into medical school...

Basically, no matter how much we hold black people in their hands and throw benefits at them, they STILL don't seem to bring much in return to society.

Also, you have to learn to separate racism from realism...

*if anything, I would be an east asian racist from what I have written, and let's face it, it's not like I am*

Kadagar_AV

06-24-2015, 22:11

Husar, I will ask you again then... Third time now...

I wrote:

I can once again point to a myriad of evidence of blacks being more stupid than whites, or east asians... Can you find anything, like any research at all, that would confirm that blacks are just as intelligent as east asians - or even whites?

I still wonder.

Husar

06-24-2015, 23:19

My point is, we can't just look at figures and say "blacks earn less than they should".

Nothing but empty words.

Can you show any study saying blacks are as intelligent as others? Heck, can you find a study saying whites are as intelligent as east asians?

You mean a study with figures? But we can't just look at figures and say...

Again the PC side is just full of empty words...

Words or figures now?
Why would I even bother with a serious reply in such discussions if you're going to declare it nonsensical or the wrong type of reeply anyway? I'm too lever to fall for that. Just like Greybabe you simply declare all evidence against your point nonsensical somehow.
I'd rather remind you that your rhetoric reminds me of Hitler.

Beskar

06-24-2015, 23:29

Husar, I will ask you again then... Third time now...

Here you go.
(http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Race+and+IQ+Myth)

Kadagar_AV

06-24-2015, 23:37

Nothing but empty words.

Really? That's how you think you win an argument 2015? Geez.

You mean a study with figures? But we can't just look at figures and say...

Actually, by now I am happy if you give me just ANY inclination that you even had a basic grasp of what you are talking about.

Stiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiill waiting for anything even remotely close to showing blacks, are as intelligent as east asians... Heck, I even threw a bone at you saying it's enough if you can show that whites are as intelligent as east asians...

But you can't do that, can you? Instead you hide behind "socioeconomical factors", without a thought of why those socioeconomical factors might be.

Again: Culture dictates a LOT when it comes to what person you get as a result.

Words or figures now?

You can do a damn hand painting pre-school style if that helps your argument, for all I care. Do words, do figures... Heck, do your absolutely damned best to show that blacks are intellectually on par.

I dare you.

Why would I even bother with a serious reply in such discussions if you're going to declare it nonsensical or the wrong type of reeply anyway? I'm too lever to fall for that. Just like Greybabe you simply declare all evidence against your point nonsensical somehow.
I'd rather remind you that your rhetoric reminds me of Hitler.

Ok...

A) You have not come with any evidence. Like none. What so ever. Ever.

If you however do come up with some, after being asked repeatedly, I will of course judge it by its worth.

Soooo, where is it?

B) I think you are the person on this board who most often reference to Hitler... Is this your german version of a penis complex, or what?

And as a sidenote: Anyone who brings up hitler in an argument automatically lose, so yeah... There is that as well.

You've been Godwine'd.

It's kind of like being Rick *n* Rolled, only that you really should know better .

SOURCE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ)

Husar

06-25-2015, 00:07

Again the PC side is just full of empty words...

Really? That's how you think you win an argument 2015? Geez.

You can do a damn hand painting pre-school style if that helps your argument, for all I care. Do words, do figures... Heck, do your absolutely damned best to show that blacks are intellectually on par.

Do a search then.

Kadagar_AV

06-25-2015, 00:17

Really? That's how you think you win an argument 2015? Geez.

So we went down on the level of tossing an argument back without in any so way defending our own position?

Last I was on that level of thinking was in kindergarten... How's your hand painting coming along?

I am eagerly waiting for the result...

Do a search then.

I have.

It shows blacks are more stupid than whites.
It also shows whites are more stupid than asians.

If you have different results when you google search you might want to share it.

Husar

06-25-2015, 00:21

So we went down on the level of tossing an argument back without in any so way defending our own position?

Last I was on that level of thinking was in kindergarten... How's your hand painting coming along?

I am eagerly waiting for the result...

I pointed out that you are contradicting yourself, but I'm sorry if that is beyond your comprehension.
Please continue to deride me, I'm enjoying it.

I have.

It shows blacks are more stupid than whites.
It also shows whites are more stupid than asians.

If you have different results when you google search you might want to share it.

Not google search, I've already explained my point several times, no need to repeat it every time.
HoreTore has also pointed out in great detail why you are wrong a while ago.
That you seem to reset to your default racism every once in a while is not my problem and I'm not going to do the sysiphos work of hunting sources and old posts for you every time.

Kadagar_AV

06-25-2015, 00:40

I pointed out that you are contradicting yourself, but I'm sorry if that is beyond your comprehension.
Please continue to deride me, I'm enjoying it.

Actually I am deriding your position... As it is, to say the least, full of fluff... And to be honest, idiotic and masochistic. You Germans really hate yourselves for being white these post WWII days, don't you?

Not google search, I've already explained my point several times, no need to repeat it every time.
HoreTore has also pointed out in great detail why you are wrong a while ago.
That you seem to reset to your default racism every once in a while is not my problem and I'm not going to do the sysiphos work of hunting sources and old posts for you every time.

If your repeated it several times, I am sure you can do it again to show the board what a fool I am... No?

HoreTores arguments I honestly don't give much care for... He was a Norwegian living in the best of societies with a VERY low immigration... In his boots (as I were before) I would have had the same position.

Heck, I even often HAD the same position as him if you look back to where I started on these boards some 12 years ago...

But know what?

HoreTore in Norway kept his look on things. basically because he haven't been around blacks or arabs.

I on the other hand moved on, and the country went to hell, so that I was and am surrounded by blacks and arabs. And know what? I do not like it.

Again, it's absolutely not because I was raised that way, it's because my life experience has shown me that you can rely on white people WAY way more.

Heck, I don't have a problem with Russians or South Americans either...

So call me racist all you want, I still claim I am a "culturalist"... And sure, sometimes cultures set genetical prints... I mean, you can only marry your family so many times under cultural acceptable conditions, before the culture start to get somewhat dumb...

Where do they inbreed again?

Oooooooooooooooh, in arabic and african countries...

EDIT: Norway accepts around 1/10 of the immigrants we do, and they have oil money. OF COURSE he didn't see a problem with blacks or arabs..

EDIT 2: I do think it's rather ungraceful of you to bring up dead peoples arguments... I feel ill at ease criticising a person that is dead, and can't defend himself. Oh and also that he is dead.

And honestly, it's not like you do him a favour... He and you come from completely different perspectives, so please don't try to imitate.

Papewaio

06-25-2015, 02:57

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

06-25-2015, 04:30

KAV how do you explain Colin Powell?

=][=

As for the East Asian examples a) They are immigrants, b) they tend to be from the brightest and hardest working to emigrate.

So I wouldn't be surprised to see a normalization of results over generations.

How do you explain Obama?

How to you explain the original Caliphate if Arabs are genetically predisposed to he faeces covered camel humpers?

This is a really complex topic and I should be doing other things so I'm going to sketch this in broad strokes.

Western societies were created by white people for white people - the way to get on in these societies is to be like white people. People coming from Africa are very different, culturally, from white people and so they do badly.

You can see this in other countries even among different white nationals within Europe.

The English generally do poorly in France, for example, and worse in Germany, Scandinavians tend to do poorly in places like Italy because they come from very open and ordered societies where Italy is anything but, I believe that Mediterraneans tend to do poorly in Scandinavia for similar reasons.

Fragony

06-25-2015, 05:23

If I remember correctly, you said it was in the past and you regretted it anyway. Wasn't trying to make a shot against you, just saying that the practice was real.

I don't think I said I regretted it, just that I didn't like doing it as I was just avoiding trouble. You just don't want a big R stamped on your head it is impossible to defend yourself, me and my customers. I don't see it as my fault that insinuations when things don't go as you want them to go will start working against you.

Practise is real by the way, Dutch companies prefer Dutch workers.

Husar

06-25-2015, 08:53

Actually I am deriding your position... As it is, to say the least, full of fluff... And to be honest, idiotic and masochistic. You Germans really hate yourselves for being white these post WWII days, don't you?

Again, I pointed out that you contradicted yourself.
If someone gives you a report with numbers you say we cannot just look at numbers. If someone gives you explanations, you say they need to provide numbers. How about you look for my explanations and take Sarmatian's and HoreTore's numbers and go with that?

If your repeated it several times, I am sure you can do it again to show the board what a fool I am... No?

No, because regardless of what I write, you will probably call it fluff or tell me in a condescending way that I could do better without giving me a proper argument in reply - happened often enough before. And I don't have an hour to waste every day writing things I have already written. I'm sure to condescendingly deride my posts takes you less time than that, so how about you invest ome time for once because I'm not your village idiot who does everything you want.

Gilrandir

06-25-2015, 17:05

Seeing this argument unfold I keep repeating to myself Sarmatian's remark on high quality discussions on these boards. :laugh4:

Greyblades

06-25-2015, 17:27

I find it hard to keep caring when accusations of racism start being thrown about.

a completely inoffensive name

06-25-2015, 18:27

I find it hard to keep caring when accusations of racism start being thrown about.
Stop being dense. You are just as hyperbolic as anyone else.

Greyblades

06-25-2015, 19:41

Yeah, no, if I was being as hyperbolic as you I'd be calling you a race traitor.

Husar

06-25-2015, 20:06

I find it hard to keep caring when accusations of racism start being thrown about.

Are you saying there is no racism anymore?
HoreTore showed long ago that Kadagar's sources on the IQ differences that he keeps bringing up are from racists and that they do not correspond with findings of more trustworthy researchers. Yet the argument of "asians are the most clever, africans are the most stupid, it's science" keeps coming up and I'm supposed to not call it racist or bring up the exact same arguments again every time? Wasn't it Einstein who said stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?

Greyblades

06-25-2015, 20:24

Are you saying there is no racism anymore?
HoreTore showed long ago that Kadagar's sources on the IQ differences that he keeps bringing up are from racists and that they do not correspond with findings of more trustworthy researchers. Yet the argument of "asians are the most clever, africans are the most stupid, it's science" keeps coming up and I'm supposed to not call it racist or bring up the exact same arguments again every time? Wasn't it Einstein who said stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results? No it was the bad guy in farcry 3, and he was talking out his ass
Strangely enough I wasn't refferng to your little spat nor have I been paying it attention.

Racist is the new Godwin misused to the point of meaningless buzzword.

Papewaio

06-25-2015, 20:40

No it was the bad guy in farcry 3, and he was talking out his ass
Strangely enough I wasn't refferng to your little spat nor have I been paying it attention.

Racist is the new Godwin misused to the point of meaningless buzzword.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

Greyblades

06-25-2015, 20:50

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTmY1Ly8NhuLIJeQpwt8yXP91jmA7aBIb46z6ZG8jH7XYkHz6pVPBKXFgqn6A

Sir Moody

06-25-2015, 20:56

Kadagar_AV

06-25-2015, 21:01

Husar

06-25-2015, 21:30

Racist is the new Godwin misused to the point of meaningless buzzword.

Couldn't you technically say that human is a race in itself and what is often described as races are phenotypes of that one race?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_classification)

Even though there is a broad scientific agreement that essentialist and typological conceptualizations of race are untenable, scientists around the world continue to conceptualize race in widely differing ways, some of which have essentialist implications.[14] While some researchers sometimes use the concept of race to make distinctions among fuzzy sets of traits, others in the scientific community suggest that the idea of race often is used in a naive[9] or simplistic way,[15] and argue that, among humans, race has no taxonomic significance by pointing out that all living humans belong to the same species, Homo sapiens, and subspecies, Homo sapiens sapiens.[16][17]

Therefore racism would be a meaningless buzzword, but at the same time all the "racial research" ever done on "differences between human races" would be meaningless as no such thing as different human races would exist.
Making every argument about racial differences completely pointless as the differences between different phenotypes of humans are nowhere near big enough to warrant a classification as a different race, which was apparently just a pipe dream someone came up with at some point.

What a surprise, or was that not what you were aiming at?

Kadagar_AV

06-25-2015, 21:42

Couldn't you technically say that human is a race in itself and what is often described as races are phenotypes of that one race?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_classification)

Therefore racism would be a meaningless buzzword, but at the same time all the "racial research" ever done on "differences between human races" would be meaningless as no such thing as different human races would exist.
Making every argument about racial differences completely pointless as the differences between different phenotypes of humans are nowhere near big enough to warrant a classification as a different race, which was apparently just a pipe dream someone came up with at some point.

What a surprise, or was that not what you were aiming at?

Just like we have dogs, you mean?

By your point of view, a Rottweiler and a Chihuahua is the same, right?

Only difference would be that dogs have evolved in a SHORTER time period than humans... EDIT: Although of course more purposefully bred.

So yes, I can agree that we are all humans, regardless of culture, race, or whatever... Just like I can agree that dogs are all dogs.

With that said however, it is absolutely LUNATIC to believe that living entities, against all science, would evolve identically under different circumstances.

I mean, that is like a fundament of modern science, DUDE!!

Papewaio

06-25-2015, 22:17

its actually a misquote - no-one is sure who actually said that - the first written example is a Hazelden Foundation pamphlet...

The quote has also been attributed to Mark Twain and Benjamin Frankilin...

It was also used several times by Vaas so Greyblades is actually closer to the truth :2thumbsup:

I stand corrected. It seems it isn't even a misquote more of an assignment to authority. Much like how all inventions in ancient China are attributed to the Emperor, modern humans are just as guilty of over simplifying and assuming that there are singular geniuses creating all our output.

I think I'm going to re-read Guns, Germs and Steel. It reframed the singular genius idea and why certain groups have been successful... Spoiler alert it's having the longest east west axis, creating environments that food packages can be distributed on and predictable seasons.

Kadagar_AV

06-25-2015, 22:33

I stand corrected. It seems it isn't even a misquote more of an assignment to authority. Much like how all inventions in ancient China are attributed to the Emperor, modern humans are just as guilty of over simplifying and assuming that there are singular geniuses creating all our output.

I think I'm going to re-read Guns, Germs and Steel. It reframed the singular genius idea and why certain groups have been successful... Spoiler alert it's having the longest east west axis, creating environments that food packages can be distributed on and predictable seasons.

Yeah but that is about pre-historic cultures... Aight?

Otherwise it would be rather shaming...

I mean, look at North Africa... Compare that to Scandinavia...

In one place we have orderly citizens building welfare states...

In one place we have absolute chaos.

Want to develop your theory of east-west axis for all of our benefit?

Papewaio

06-25-2015, 22:52

Yeah but that is about pre-historic cultures... Aight?

Otherwise it would be rather shaming...

I mean, look at North Africa... Compare that to Scandinavia...

In one place we have orderly citizens building welfare states...

In one place we have absolute chaos.

Want to develop your theory of east-west axis for all of our benefit?

A) not my theory
B) guns and steel aren't prehistoric inventions
C) Scandinavia is part of Europe. Europe is part of Eurasia. The longest East - West Axis on the planet (plus other beneficial factors). Civilization first grew around the Fertile Crescent (until it was no longer as fertile) and in China. Plants and animals can be transplanted in similar environments hence Wheat spreading from the Middle East to Europe. Etc etc

If you read the book it will reinforce some of your ideas and flip others into a new perspective.

Husar

06-26-2015, 00:25

Just like we have dogs, you mean?

By your point of view, a Rottweiler and a Chihuahua is the same, right?

Only difference would be that dogs have evolved in a SHORTER time period than humans... EDIT: Although of course more purposefully bred.

So yes, I can agree that we are all humans, regardless of culture, race, or whatever... Just like I can agree that dogs are all dogs.

With that said however, it is absolutely LUNATIC to believe that living entities, against all science, would evolve identically under different circumstances.

I mean, that is like a fundament of modern science, DUDE!!

You are aware that I was going with what the wikipedia article said? And that article had more sources than you do. Why would I believe you over that article?

Fragony

06-26-2015, 01:25

a completely inoffensive name

06-26-2015, 02:14

This thread was about the treatment of blacks in the US. Why am I not surprised that this simply devolved into another thread for kad to talk about how genetically inferior they are.

Greyblades

06-26-2015, 03:37

a completely inoffensive name

06-26-2015, 04:24

Pointless southern prejudice aside, your opening post failed to give us a topic of discussion that hasn't been done to death.

Perhaps we wouldn't have gone down the familiar paths of conversation if you had started with something a bit more nuanced that "grr southerners, screw em"
I'm getting tired of the constant chip on your shoulder dude. I opened a topic on the removal of the Confederate flag and the extent to which racist symbols and practices should be removed, particularly in the south. This clearly wasn't as tired as you claim since more respectable people in here like strike and Panzer responded in kind with opinions regarding the degree to which we blame southern culture when it comes to institutional practices and public backlash in the aftermath of tragedies. Others like PVC and monty also brought up points about the morality and efficacy of attempts to alter culture as an outsider.

It is not my fault that you cant separate issues as broad as 'race' into multiple questions to tackle individually. Just like you can't seem to shut the **** up about gamergate every time video games are discussed in a serious manner. The only thread where people stay on topic (Ukraine) is by far the most active and largest thread. So yeah, excuse me for being a tad annoyed at seeing another thread once again end in 40 posts between kad and husar or you and husar.

a completely inoffensive name

06-26-2015, 04:27

No disrespect to Husar BTW, keep fighting the good fight.

Kadagar_AV

06-26-2015, 04:46

No disrespect to Husar BTW, keep fighting the good fight.

Sisyphus much?

I would be more interested in an actual discussion...

Whenever I have time I'll come back with a more serious reply :)

Kadagar_AV

06-26-2015, 05:33

A) not my theory
B) guns and steel aren't prehistoric inventions
C) Scandinavia is part of Europe. Europe is part of Eurasia. The longest East - West Axis on the planet (plus other beneficial factors). Civilization first grew around the Fertile Crescent (until it was no longer as fertile) and in China. Plants and animals can be transplanted in similar environments hence Wheat spreading from the Middle East to Europe. Etc etc

If you read the book it will reinforce some of your ideas and flip others into a new perspective.

Yeah... Quick question: Weren't whites chasing mammuts as the blacks more or less had bananas dropping on their heads, in comparison?

If you read, like, ANYTHING about genetics and stuff, heck Darwinism 101 would suffice.. You will come to accept that living beings under different conditions will evolve differently from each other.

Heck, we don't even have to get into genetics. We can even talk about cultures - completely separate from genetics (an arguable case with inbreeding and stuff, but let's move on).

TBH your west/east theory is, well, ****.

Why? Because there are absolutely no correspondence to that theory in the modern societies we have built. I mean, by your logic, Aborigines should have developed society more than, say, the people on Iceland...

Yet Aborigines are still NOT exactly known for building functional societies... Are they?

Husar

06-26-2015, 08:28

Yet Aborigines are still NOT exactly known for building functional societies... Are they?

Define "functional society".
Or just explain what about their societies did not work prior to being forced into a capitalist system?

Fragony

06-26-2015, 08:49

Define "functional society".
Or just explain what about their societies did not work prior to being forced into a capitalist system?

You don't have to think about reasons to be first acknowedging a fact. How and why can come later.

Sir Moody

06-26-2015, 09:14

You don't have to think about reasons to be first acknowedging a fact. How and why can come later.

it isn't a fact though - prior to European interference they had thriving cultures and complex societies - don't fall into the assumption a lack of technology meant a lack of society.

Fragony

06-26-2015, 10:08

it isn't a fact though - prior to European interference they had thriving cultures and complex societies - don't fall into the assumption a lack of technology meant a lack of society.

That is why you can disregard that as being just factors that lead to the outcome of the sum. No matter the variables the fact remains that east-asians do a lot better than whites, and whites do better than middle-easterns and africans. There can be so many reasons for that but why just dismiss it that things just are like that at the moment. Not acknowledging that is just off imho

Sir Moody

06-26-2015, 10:17

That is why you can disregard that as being just factors that lead to the outcome of the sum. No matter the variables the fact remains that east-asians do a lot better than whites, and whites do better than middle-easterns and africans. There can be so many reasons for that but why just dismiss it that things just are like that at the moment. Not acknowledging that is just off imho

... can someone translate this please it makes no sense in regard to what I said ...

Husar

06-26-2015, 10:24

... can someone translate this please it makes no sense in regard to what I said ...

I think Fragony just defined "functional society" as "getting 2 points more on average in IQ tests" or something similar to that, depending on how he defines "do better".

It's not just BS, it makes no sense whatsoever.

Fragony

06-26-2015, 10:49

I think Fragony just defined "functional society" as "getting 2 points more on average in IQ tests" or something similar to that, depending on how he defines "do better".

It's not just BS, it makes no sense whatsoever.

If it makes no sense just look at the results and try to make sense out of the results. Compare South-Korea or Japan to Somalia or Zimbabwe. Feel free to factor in anything, be my guest I am patiently waiting.

Husar

06-26-2015, 12:40

If it makes no sense just look at the results and try to make sense out of the results. Compare South-Korea or Japan to Somalia or Zimbabwe. Feel free to factor in anything, be my guest I am patiently waiting.

Well, the Samurai kept killing eachother and were living in a perpetual warzone whereas the africans were living happy peaceful lives in the vast land where they hardly encountered other tribes and probably had some wars as well when they did. Both were fully functional societies however.

I cannot compare zimbabwe or somalia to japan as I do not think the states of somalia or zimbabwe already existed before the europeans came and colonized africa.

Fragony

06-26-2015, 12:51

Well, the Samurai kept killing eachother and were living in a perpetual warzone whereas the africans were living happy peaceful lives in the vast land where they hardly encountered other tribes and probably had some wars as well when they did. Both were fully functional societies however.

I cannot compare zimbabwe or somalia to japan as I do not think the states of somalia or zimbabwe already existed before the europeans came and colonized africa.

Saying what, I know there are established civilizations there my appartment is filled with African art and ceremonial weapons, the Louvre would be jealous of a few. Doesn't mean that they aren't hopelesly lagging behind when it comes to just about everything.

Husar

06-26-2015, 13:18

it isn't a fact though - prior to European interference they had thriving cultures and complex societies - don't fall into the assumption a lack of technology meant a lack of society.

Saying what, I know there are established civilizations there my appartment is filled with African art and ceremonial weapons, the Louvre would be jealous of a few.

So what were you arguing about?

Doesn't mean that they aren't hopelesly lagging behind when it comes to just about everything.

And that Europeans destroyed their civilizations and social orders and forced a New World Order upon them that was basically fitted to the european way of life and designed to keep them down as second or even third class colonial citizenslaves could have nothing to do with their current problems? Because North Korea and Vietnam also turned into major players on the world stage after their respective wars. Japan is looking to a bright future and the Greeks were also always useless and never invented anything.

Gilrandir

06-26-2015, 13:54

I mean, look at North Africa... Compare that to Scandinavia...

In one place we have orderly citizens building welfare states...

In one place we have absolute chaos.

There were times (say, of the zenith of Khaliphate) when one could say it was the other way around.

my appartment is filled with African art and ceremonial weapons, the Louvre would be jealous of a few.
Now I know who of the forumers practises voodoo. Let all his opponenets beware!

Fragony

06-26-2015, 14:29

And that Europeans destroyed their civilizations and social orders and forced a New World Order upon them that was basically fitted to the european way of life and designed to keep them down as second or even third class colonial citizenslaves could have nothing to do with their current problems? Because North Korea and Vietnam also turned into major players on the world stage after their respective wars. Japan is looking to a bright future and the Greeks were also always useless and never invented anything.

that is why the outcome comes first, you aren't denying anything if you do, everything is possible and plausable.

Husar

06-26-2015, 16:33

that is why the outcome comes first, you aren't denying anything if you do, everything is possible and plausable.

Why don't we close down our schools and wait for all the wonderful outcomes that are surely still possible and plausible?

Fragony

06-26-2015, 16:50

Why don't we close down our schools and wait for all the wonderful outcomes that are surely still possible and plausible?

Why would we do such a thing

Greyblades

06-26-2015, 17:03

I'm getting tired of the constant chip on your shoulder dude. I opened a topic on the removal of the Confederate flag and the extent to which racist symbols and practices should be removed, particularly in the south. This clearly wasn't as tired as you claim since more respectable people in here like strike and Panzer responded in kind with opinions regarding the degree to which we blame southern culture when it comes to institutional practices and public backlash in the aftermath of tragedies. Others like PVC and monty also brought up points about the morality and efficacy of attempts to alter culture as an outsider.

It is not my fault that you cant separate issues as broad as 'race' into multiple questions to tackle individually. Just like you can't seem to shut the **** up about gamergate every time video games are discussed in a serious manner. The only thread where people stay on topic (Ukraine) is by far the most active and largest thread. So yeah, excuse me for being a tad annoyed at seeing another thread once again end in 40 posts between kad and husar or you and husar.

Christ even by my standards you are whiny.

If your long term memory could extend further than six months you'd know that every racial shooting debate turns into this without intervention. There's been plenty of developments you could have steered the conversation with but you have failed to present one, so frankly you've brought this on yourself.

Here's a bone: a bunch of idiots are calling for everything confederate to be removed:

New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu calls for removal of Lee Circle statue. (http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/06/lee_circle_statue_robert_e_lee.html)

Group calls for removal of Confederate monument from Lake Eola Park. (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-confederate-monument-lake-eola-petition-20150624-story.html)

‘Gone with the Wind’ should go the way of the Confederate flag. (http://nypost.com/2015/06/24/gone-with-the-wind-should-go-the-way-of-the-confederate-flag/)

This whitewashing is even threatening to spill into other centuries:

Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate (http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/culture/la-et-cm-thomas-jefferson-confederate-statues-20150624-story.html)

And sadly its starting to actually influence people outside the hugbox:

Dukes of Hazzard Toy Car Axed Amid Confederate Flag Controversy (http://time.com/3933901/dukes-hazzard-toy-car/)

You want to keep on topic, talk about the topic instead of pissing and moaning.

No disrespect to Husar BTW, keep fighting the good fight. Dont forget to work shaft there buddy.

Greyblades

06-26-2015, 17:28

Oh and by the way, while you were bitching about the seasonal massacre and subsequent pointless race debate, this was fastracked to the president's desk two days ago:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership#United_States

Fortunately it's not my country so I can laugh at your race baited ass with impunity.

Husar

06-26-2015, 17:35

Why would we do such a thing

Weren't you claiming that we cannot blame a different history for the problems that exist today?

Sir Moody

06-26-2015, 17:35

Removing the flag from the state government building was a good move and rightfully demanded (since it gave the impression the state government was endorsing a racist regime).

Removing it from historical monuments is nuts - the civil war still happened and the flag is entirely appropriate on these monuments...

Strike For The South

06-26-2015, 17:58

15684

Beskar

06-26-2015, 18:46

15684

It's true as Puerto Rico will be a state soon.

PanzerJaeger

06-26-2015, 18:59

Yeah, I'm not sure how the Stars and Stripes holds up under the same standard. Certainly ethnic cleansing, and arguably all out genocide, is on the same level as slavery or worse. Nothing about the current rush to purge all symbols of the Old South stands up to even basic intellectual scrutiny... It's just reactionary populism. It's never enough to just say 'what a terrible tragedy, I'm glad all efforts were made to capture the killer'. The usual suspects always use these isolated, statistically insignificant incidents to push agendas that are at best only tangentially related. What about the cross... the star and crescent? Is there any symbol in widespread use that doesn't offend someone?

Husar

06-26-2015, 19:24

The usual suspects always use these isolated, statistically insignificant incidents to push agendas that are at best only tangentially related.

Isn't that normal as far as terrorist attacks are concerned?

a completely inoffensive name

06-26-2015, 21:07

Sarmatian

06-26-2015, 21:11

Greyblades

06-26-2015, 21:25

Cry me a river. That flag is:

1) symbol of slavery
2) symbol of armed rebellion against USA

If number 1 is debatable (in my opinion it isn't, no amount of dressing up can make it), number 2 point should be enough to ban it for forever and ever.
Ban for who?

Sarmatian

06-26-2015, 21:29

Ban for who?

For everybody in the US of A.

Strike For The South

06-26-2015, 21:55

The stars and stripes was not created specifically as a symbol of imperialism or cleansing. Say what you will about the atrocities done under the union flag, the stars and bars is a creation born from slavery and was chosen to identify a nation that held the truth about "the inferior nature of negros".

The stars and bar is the battle flag of the army of Northern Virginia. It is not the flag of the CSA. The stars and stripes was born from slavery as well, those men very much believed in the inferiority of negros, and the men whom oversaw it's creation were the spearhead on a continent wide ethnic cleansing.

For everybody in the US of A.

On the inside, all Europeans are dirty little fascists.

Sir Moody

06-26-2015, 21:57

For everybody in the US of A.

I wouldn't go that far.

banning it from being flown at Government buildings is fine and justified - banning Joe public from flying it if they want is a no no

it infringes their rite to be a backwards racist if they want to

a completely inoffensive name

06-26-2015, 22:03

Sarmatian

06-26-2015, 22:14

The stars and bar is the battle flag of the army of Northern Virginia. It is not the flag of the CSA. The stars and stripes was born from slavery as well, those men very much believed in the inferiority of negros, and the men whom oversaw it's creation were the spearhead on a continent wide ethnic cleansing.

It all boils to 50 shades of grey - sure, I guess someone will be insulted by a Unicef flag, or feel wronged by someone or something the flag represents, but we can not use that as an excuse.

I don't believe that only racists like that flag, and I do agree there are people who like that flag and hate slavery and racism, but that is not a good enough reason to keep it. I'm sure there are other ways to express love for southern culture.

On the inside, all Europeans are dirty little fascists.

You know I can't resist you when you go full Dixie on me...

I wouldn't go that far.

banning it from being flown at Government buildings is fine and justified - banning Joe public from flying it if they want is a no no

it infringes their rite to be a backwards racist if they want to

I wouldn't care much.

Maybe this is because I grew up where I grew up and experienced it all. Symbols are powerful tools.

Strike For The South

06-26-2015, 22:16

The founding Fathers were more diverse than that. You can find it in the language that many wished to suppress or remove slavery. The constitution gave slavery protection for only twenty years at which point congress banned the import of new slaves as soon as the protection expired. These compromises and the actions of early congress show more nuance than you give them.

And the CSA was more diverse than that but it doesn't change the centerpiece for either side.

I don't believe that only racists like that flag, and I do agree there are people who like that flag and hate slavery and racism, but that is not a good enough reason to keep it. I'm sure there are other ways to express love for southern culture.

In theory it can not and does not fly over any government buildings. South Carolina got around that by designating something as a "memorial". I'm all for that, treason should have consequences.

My bigger issue is the deliberate whitewashing of history.

You know I can't resist you when you go full Dixie on me...

:)

a completely inoffensive name

06-26-2015, 22:20

And the CSA was more diverse than that but it doesn't change the centerpiece for either side.
Was it? I am willing to hear the case that the CSA was more than an attempt by gentry to preserve regional economics based on slave labor.

Strike For The South

06-26-2015, 22:41

Was it? I am willing to hear the case that the CSA was more than an attempt by gentry to preserve regional economics based on slave labor.

More than half the of the CSA did not secede until Lincoln called for volunteers to crush the rebellion. The civil war settled the state sovereignty question once and for all. The Hartford Convention, The Nullification Crisis, The whiskey rebellion were all times in the past when states invoked sovereignty (and the spirit of the revolution) against the feds.

The nation had left the south behind and the south decided it wanted no part of the nation any longer. This was not a settled question at the time (hell, it's not even settled today.) If the Confederacy allows the re supply of Ft.Sumter, it's entirely possible that the Union would not have drummed up enough support to crush the revolt. Before the war it was the United States are, After the war it was the United States is.

I would rather just recommend you books.

Strike For The South

06-26-2015, 23:16

Lets be clear. We are not talking about the civil war. The current political shitstorm that is brewing came about in the 50s and 60s when the dixiecrats began to use the star and bars as desegregation began. The flag fell out of use for nearly a century after the war.

a completely inoffensive name

06-26-2015, 23:46

Go ahead and recommend some books and I will start buying them this week.

Strike For The South

06-27-2015, 00:35

James Mcpherson's "battle cry of Freedom" is still the best single volume on the war. Truly all you need for the wartime itself (buy you're going to want more).

Bruce Cattons "Centenial series" was written to comemorate the 100th anniversary of the war.Uses much more primary source material than Foote. Generally what all the old people say "got them into the war"

Tony Horwitz "Confederates in the Attic"

That's 8000 pages of pretty standard stuff and generally where people will get their talking points from in day to day life. Also since you're going to be on amazom and my birthday is coming up, do you mind picking me up HW Brands: "A restless colossus"?

These lectures are not bad either https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PunB5vPj2sE&index=2&list=PL24F7549F2D39E590

Greyblades

06-27-2015, 01:40

Oh, Apple, you cowardly worm. (http://toucharcade.com/2015/06/25/apple-removes-confederate-flag/)

Strike For The South

06-27-2015, 03:13

Shamefully ripped from another forum

EASTERN CAMPAIGNS

- Peninsula Campaign and Seven Days: To The Gates of Richmond by Stephen Sears
- Second Manassas: Return to Bull Run by John Hennessy
- Antietam: Landscape Turned Red by Stephen Sears
- Fredericksburg: The Fredericksburg Campaign by Francis O'Reilly
- Chancellorsville: Chancellorsville by Stephen Sears
- Gettysburg: anything by Stephen Sears, Edwin Coddington Noah Trudeau, Harry Pfanz, and a bunch of others
- Overland Campaign: the series by Gordon Rhea

WESTERN CAMPAIGNS

- Shiloh: Shiloh: Bloody April by Wiley Sword
- Perryville: Perryville by Kenneth Noe
- Murfreesborough: No Better Place to Die by Peter Cozzens
- Chickamauga: This Terrible Sound by Peter Cozzens
- Chattanooga: The Shipwreck of Their Hopes by Peter Cozzens
- Atlanta Campaign: Decision in the West by Albert Castel
- Nashville Campaign: Confederacy's Last Hurrah by Wiley Sword

Brenus

06-27-2015, 13:21

"Oh, Apple, you cowardly worm.": Agree. We had the same move when Nazi symbols were taken off, even from Plane Kit modelling... It won't last. Common sense will come back.

HopAlongBunny

06-27-2015, 20:02

The pissing contest over the flag deflected from the courage of convictions demonstrated by the victims:

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/6/christian-forgiveness-is-transforming-the-south.html

But I guess it "wouldn't really count" as a tragedy w/o the media drawing blood somewhere.

Sarmatian

06-27-2015, 21:06

I got a warm, fuzzy feeling after reading that. I don't know if I would have been able to forgive.

Part of the warm, fuzzy feeling, though, is that a small part of me thinks that this is the ultimate defeat for the shooter. He tried to incite violence and he failed. Now he just a sick a-hole who's gonna spend the rest of his life seeing people through a little hole in the door.

ICantSpellDawg

06-27-2015, 22:15

infographic

Thanks for posting this. It jives with my numbers over the years as well.
It is infuriating that these stats are ignored.

ICantSpellDawg

06-27-2015, 22:18

ReluctantSamurai

06-28-2015, 08:58

I'm not sure how the Stars and Stripes holds up under the same standard. Certainly ethnic cleansing, and arguably all out genocide, is on the same level as slavery or worse. Nothing about the current rush to purge all symbols of the Old South stands up to even basic intellectual scrutiny... It's just reactionary populism.

Nearly every star placed on "Old Glory" got there by the blood of butchered Native Americans, who were systematically stripped of their lands, rights, and dignity; by the blood of exploited railroad & mining workers; by the grief and tears of all those swindled out of their savings by corrupt banks and real estate barons; and by just about every imaginable way that human beings can take advantage of others to fatten their wealth. Don't see anyone calling for its removal from government buildings....

The Rebel flag has come to mean different things for different people since the Civil War. It can certainly connote racial hatred when used by groups like the KKK, etc. My experience has been that the Stars & Bars is simply an expression of personal rebellion. In my college days, one could find the Rebel Flag at student protests, not because we believed in slavery but because we perceived ourselves as rebels fighting against a higher authority. I've also found it to be far more prevalent in rural settings, where folks would really prefer governmental intrusions be kept to a minimum. It's all too easy to point fingers at the stereo-typical tobacco-chewing, gun-toting, whiskey-drinking, truck-driving Southerner, and forget about all the more benign uses of it that have absolutely nothing to do with slavery or racial hatred.

Government buildings are an inappropriate place for it, as are any items, like auto plates, that can be identified as government regulated. But this ridiculous attempt to purge it from monuments, toys, and even video games is not only asinine, but insanely hypocritical when one scrutinizes America's past......

Husar

06-28-2015, 09:13

Thanks for posting this. It jives with my numbers over the years as well.
It is infuriating that these stats are ignored.

You can't be serious.
People have been complaining about the overrepresenation of blacks in prisons for years, how are these stats being ignored?
Blaming the victims of the societal/institutional racism is a typical racist butthole tactic.

Strike For The South

06-28-2015, 16:39

The Saltire cross/battleflag of N. Virginia is not the "stars and bars". You should know this.

When the flag was resurected post war that's what it was tied to. Lees own flag was different but the stars and bars was carried as a part of his army. I didn't realize we were giving out medals for pendantry.

Tuuvi

06-28-2015, 16:56

You can't be serious.
People have been complaining about the overrepresenation of blacks in prisons for years, how are these stats being ignored?
Blaming the victims of the societal/institutional racism is a typical racist butthole tactic.

Especially when it's in response to 9 people getting murdered by a white supremacist.

Kadagar_AV

06-28-2015, 18:49

Sarmatian

06-28-2015, 21:35

Speaking of race motivated attacks...

How many blacks kill whites, compared to how many whites kill blacks in the USA?

The perp seem to have some "ill adviced" (is it?) idea that the real problem with terrible race motivated attacks are blacks attacking whites...

Any numbers to prove him wrong?

According to FBI, 83% of white people murdered are killed by white people.

EDIT: you also have to be careful with "race motivated attack" - not every black on white or white on black murder is race motivated. This obviously has been by the killer's admission.

Kadagar_AV

06-28-2015, 22:16

According to FBI, 83% of white people murdered are killed by white people.

EDIT: you also have to be careful with "race motivated attack" - not every black on white or white on black murder is race motivated. This obviously has been by the killer's admission.

Yeah, that was not what I asked though, was it...

How many BLACKS kill WHITES compared to how many WHITES kills BLACKS...

I mean, if we are going to discuss racial hate crimes, that should be a factor, no?

I am not at all surprised that blacks mainly kill blacks and whites mainly kill whites... Just like I am not surprised that blacks like to live with and have black friends like whites like to live with and have white friends...

My QUESTION was: When the groups meet... What is the comparison between whites killing blacks and blacks killing whites?

Sarmatian

06-28-2015, 22:51

Yeah, that was not what I asked though, was it...

How many BLACKS kill WHITES compared to how many WHITES kills BLACKS...

That fails on several levels:

1) interracial murder doesn't have to be connected with racism.
2) laws of average mean white people are more likely to be victims, since there's 7-8 times more numerous. Like in China, if there's a murder, the victim will most likely be a Chinese.
3) the statistics don't show the whole story, as the numbers used are numbers for arrests, not convictions.
4) like everywhere else in the world, poverty has to be taken into account...

and many different things.

But, the answer to your question, according to the FBI is:

Whites murdered 189 blacks in 2013
Blacks murdered 409 whites in 2013

If you adjust it for the difference in numbers, you're much more likely to be killed by a white if you're black than by black if you're white.

But, those number are meaningless since we don't know how many of those murders are due to racism.

Kadagar_AV

06-29-2015, 03:14

But wait...

If blacks killed around 400 whites...

And whites killed around 200 blacks...

Do you mean the vast majority of the US is black these days? Or what?

Ironside

06-29-2015, 21:28

But wait...

If blacks killed around 400 whites...

And whites killed around 200 blacks...

Do you mean the vast majority of the US is black these days? Or what?

I've already explained this. Due to how statistics works, x vs y, crime will be the same as y vs x crime, no matter how small or large x is compared to y. That's without any other factors.

So Swedes (or whatever minority you can think of) living in America will murder Americans in about the same numbers as Americans murder Swedes (whatever minority).

The general murderer rate among blacks is higher than 2x compared to whites.

Basically, a black murderer will target a white guy less than random (or whites targets blacks more than random).

Not seen in that particular data set (but seen in data in the picture given by Veho), but both black and white murderers attack over the race barrier less than randomly. It's way more pronounced to not attack over the race barrier in the case of black people.

Kadagar_AV

06-29-2015, 22:10

I've already explained this. Due to how statistics works, x vs y, crime will be the same as y vs x crime, no matter how small or large x is compared to y. That's without any other factors.

So Swedes (or whatever minority you can think of) living in America will murder Americans in about the same numbers as Americans murder Swedes (whatever minority).

The general murderer rate among blacks is higher than 2x compared to whites.

Basically, a black murderer will target a white guy less than random (or whites targets blacks more than random).

Not seen in that particular data set (but seen in data in the picture given by Veho), but both black and white murderers attack over the race barrier less than randomly. It's way more pronounced to not attack over the race barrier in the case of black people.

Ok... But still...

It's like what? 5 times? 8 times? More likely to be killed by a black guy if you are white, than by a white guy if you are black?

Beskar

06-29-2015, 22:31

Kadagar_AV

06-29-2015, 22:49

The before mentioned source by Samartian - Source (https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls)

Looking more closely I realised they put whites and south-americans in the same group.... So counting purely westerners, the numbers would actually be even more condemning for the blacks, then?

Beskar

06-29-2015, 23:10

Your racial definition is very American, Kadagar, compared to European definition. Just an observation.

Husar

06-29-2015, 23:22

Looking more closely I realised they put whites and south-americans in the same group.... So counting purely westerners, the numbers would actually be even more condemning for the blacks, then?

How are south americans not westerners?

Kadagar_AV

06-29-2015, 23:46

Your racial definition is very American, Kadagar, compared to European definition. Just an observation.

Interesting... How so?

How are south americans not westerners?

Sorry, just tried not to overdo the "white" thing... South Americans are not white, if that makes you feel better :)

Sarmatian

06-30-2015, 07:01

Beskar

06-30-2015, 08:12

Interesting... How so?

Because it is oversimplified where they see 'whites' 'blacks' 'Browns' 'Reds' and 'Yellows' as homogeneous groupings based purely on skin tone. As such, Spanish people are not white as those south of US are 'brown inferiors' from Mexico, etc.

European definition is more distinctive with Slavs, Nords, Saxons, Aryan, Celts, etc far more groupings based on ethnicities, basically.

Both are rather hogwash in terms of actual differences since there is more variance within groups than between genetically, but that is a different point entirely.

Husar

06-30-2015, 09:42

Sorry, just tried not to overdo the "white" thing... South Americans are not white, if that makes you feel better :)

Well, perhaps the majority, but white latin americans even have a wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Latin_American

Around 33% are whites, I'd call that a significant percentage of whites.

Kadagar_AV

06-30-2015, 13:01

And if we count only those truly of Aryan race, the numbers would be even more condemning.

True...

A Scandinavian economist once said to Milton Friedman, ‘In Scandinavia, we have no poverty’. Milton Friedman replied, ‘That’s interesting, because in America, among Scandinavians, we have no poverty, either’. Indeed, the poverty rate for Americans with Swedish ancestry is only 6.7 per cent: half the US average (US Census).

The 4.4 million or so Americans with Swedish origins are considerably richer than average Americans, as are other immigrant groups from Scandinavia. If Americans with Swedish ancestry were to form their own country, their per capita GDP would be $56,900, more than $10,000 above the income of the average American.

It should be noted that those Swedes who migrated to the USA, predominately in the nineteenth century, were anything but the elite. Rather, it was often those escaping poverty and famine.

I see people from Spain as culturally being rather close to me... But in the US, if I understood it right, "hispanics" are of south american lineage?

I must honestly say I'm not very concerned with South Americans though... I can only speak from those I have met, and those immigrants I have seen in Sweden. And they are as a rule hard working family oriented people. Some macho culture, but I can live with that.

It's really only Arabs and Blacks I see as problematic... I wouldn't mind living for a while in a "South American" area here in town... I sure as hell wouldn't want to live with the arabs or blacks though.

rory_20_uk

06-30-2015, 13:45

I would not like to live in the Projects regardless if the locals were black / white / Asian / other.

I would be happy living in a wealthy gated community of the locals were black / white / Asian / other.

I'm pretty colour blind when I'm being robbed / stabbed / shot. America has managed to ensure that the inequalities of the 1800/1900's have not been rectified and so yes the odds ratio of danger can be stratified by race but frankly nurture has a large part to play.

~:smoking:

Fragony

06-30-2015, 17:24

Husar

06-30-2015, 18:13

You are more likely to get robbed/stabbed/shot though, arabs and blacks are always on the top of the list no matter the circumstances.

How many rich arabs and blacks have been arrested for these things in western countries lately?

Fragony

06-30-2015, 18:51

How many rich arabs and blacks have been arrested for these things in western countries lately?

None as far as I know. I know what you are trying to say, but my clothes aren't nearly as expensive. I got a few Armani-shirts and Prada-shoes but I don't wear these all the time. For some it's just a lifestyle.Grab what you can and get what you want.

Husar

06-30-2015, 23:22

None as far as I know. I know what you are trying to say, but my clothes aren't nearly as expensive. I got a few Armani-shirts and Prada-shoes but I don't wear these all the time. For some it's just a lifestyle.Grab what you can and get what you want.

I was trying to say that if the problem is inherent for blacks and arabs, as some seem to say, how come that only the poor ones seem to end up in jail while the rich ones don't? Are the rich ones not really arab/black or what? Aren't a whole lot of the white people in jails also poor? So the one thing that most criminals have in common is that they're not from the gated communities for rich people and yet some want to think it's a race thing.

At the point where you say they are poor because the whites won't give them jobs and the whites won't give them jobs because so many of them are criminals, you just turned it into a self-fulfilling prophecy/vicious circle that originated with the racism of the past which was responsible for pretty much all of them starting out poor in the first place.

Fragony

07-01-2015, 06:47

Sarmatian

07-01-2015, 08:03

Heh, the big boys are usually liquidated before they can go to jail, especially in Amsterdam it's getting pretty insane, AK's are way too easy to get. But you are right of course about poverty being a vicious circle. But I wouldn't dismiss the gang-culture as a factor

You and Kadagar should get together and explain how Oman has lower murder rate per 100,000 people (0,65) than Netherlands (1,00) and Sweden (0,89).

Fragony

07-01-2015, 08:06

You Kadagar should get together and explain how Oman has lower murder rate per 100,000 people (0,65) than Netherlands (1,00) and Sweden (0,89).

No gang-culture?

Husar

07-01-2015, 08:19

Fragony

07-01-2015, 09:45

Isn't gang culture also a result of poverty?

There is even a german gang culture, or there was one before the more violent gang cultures of people from war zones drove the german gangs away due to their more violent nature. At least partially as our western gang culture returned in the form of also very violent motorcycle clubs which own sex slaves and throw hand grenades at bars of competing clubs. So even the ultra violence is not exclusive to some races or cultures, just read up on what the Banditos and the other motorcycle gangs do in their free time. There is even a dutch gang that has begun expanding in Germany now:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satudarah

This is western gang culture plain and simple. We even managed to make it somewhat middle class worthy and they probably have more lawyers as well to avoid getting punished or stopped.

Completily valid. Motorcycle-clubs are 'rock' in the same way gangster-rap is 'blingbling' though. I know of Saturada, they are expanding in Belgium as well. They are from the Molukken, an island in Indonesia, I don't know how dangerous they are really, they don't like drawing attention. Most of the liquidation-wave is between Marrocan-groups, as it seems at least they kill eachother just because they expect to be killed first. They are a bit like rockstars Marrocan youth. I will go along with poverty being a breeding-groumd
but that's not the whole story.

What I know about the motorgangs

Hell's Angels, branch of the Americans
Confederates, same
No Surrender, mostly army/veterans, lots of ex-special forces, an unknown number is fighting alongside the Kurds.
Saturada, mostly immigrants from the Molukken