Org Promotion [Archive]

Axalon

09-10-2016, 17:47

...So you actually want to help the site?

The best (and most obvious) place to start is to scrap the entire site index and give back the individual full sections to each TW-game, and let all mods be sorted under the games they are made for - like have them in the same section again. Hosted mods and their individual sections move over to their games, and they keep their current subsections on the index, now sorted under the relevant games. After all, this place should really take care of the few surviving/remaining mods that are still around here somehow... Imagine that...

Also, lose the misplaced and unwarranted focus on the latest TW-game - its ridiculous and discriminating too. And it is clearly not doing this place any favors. Some 5 years of this stupid and misguided strategy have shown that it will not deliver any of the gains that it was aiming for. It has instead failed, over and over. Neither the attempt with STW2, and then RTW2, then Attila or finally Warhammer has made any positive difference. It has repeatedly failed regardless, four times over and the traffic levels have not increased - they have just dwindled instead.

Obviously, the administration needs to wake up, and seriously rethink their actual priorities for this entire site - to continue catering to their own personal preference and whims (or whatever it is) does not cut it for the survival of this site - the traffic levels show this with extreme clarity. The rational path forward is to restore the focus back to what originally made and built this site in the first place - a fansite that explicitly deals in TW-games and this in great detail, regardless the game. Much as it was prior to 2010's. However this time it should also include and properly support mods/alterations/conversions too, as these do deliver invaluable content, and pull/draw for the site at large. The very stuff this site has essentially failed at before, and still fails at. All that has too change drastically. Otherwise, it will lose future content, posts and traffic...

The entire notion that this site needs a small index in order to be attractive, is ridiculous, unfounded and destructive to this site - the record have universally shown this beyond any doubt for several years in a row now. It is essentially killing the site because it does not allow us the space, detail and focus on the games we like (on the index) - the very reason to come here in the first place is to meet around, discuss and exchange information about our various fave games. And everything starts with the index... Nah, only the games the Administrations likes is provided any serious coverage and space as it is - which constantly translates to the latest TW-game and little else. Everything else is mashed together, as to "save space on the index". I mean, its just unreal in its reckless stupidity. A short index is not something this place can afford, or something that will ever benefit this site - the last 5 years have shown that mercilessly. In fact, the damned (current) index is a major part of the problem and until it is changed for the better, it will only continue to damage this place further, much in the same way it has continuously done for the last 5 years. It will never benefit this site somehow, it will (more likely) kill it...

The index, that's the place to start...

- A

edyzmedieval

09-10-2016, 20:10

Yes, indeed, I actually want to help the Org! It's been a virtual home for me for over a decade and I want to see it going strong. :bow:

As for your proposals, yes, I do agree with some of them. I think the current index is a bit too detailed, it needs some refining in my view and we need to have the individual sections back. It was useful, it worked, and during the heyday of the RTW - M2TW era everyone was working with it quite well without any major problems.

That being said, I think we should start working on the front page as well - add announcements and keep them always updated, like TWC does.

Thoughts from mods? ~:)

Montmorency

09-11-2016, 00:31

Hooahguy

09-11-2016, 02:51

I will be candid here.

I am skeptical that an index restructuring would do any real good. The current indexing was done because it was so hard to find specific subforums for mods and stuff, so I dont think it can be blamed for our declining user base.

We have tried competitions and stuff to bring in people, it gave us a bit of a spike but it went away. We tried bringing CA back, they didnt see us as a priority so we were put on the backburner. We have linked to other sites and they linked back, but no real help. Money is tight for advertising, not that I think it would do much good because most people use things like Adblock. We tried bringing modders here but they have no reason to because the TWC is a big home for them. The fact is that what we offer can be offered by much larger communities like Reddit, the official forums, and TWC. So what would keep people here? For me, its the people. I have made a lot of real life friends on this place, and have even met a bunch of them. Thats why I stay.

Point is, its going to take something massive to grow our membership and I just dont know what that would be.

Axalon

09-11-2016, 09:16

Leave out your fantasies and look back at what we have noted as actually being missing from the userbase. The discussion in the nearby thread already indicates why no changes will magically create traffic for this site as a Total War site.

Oh for **** sake...

If memory serves, you actually supported and defended this damn index in the first place, and add to that, this site have certainly tried already to be more non-TW oriented for sure - just as your post advocate - and, we already know how that strategy worked out - several times over actually - it has delivered us into the very circumstance we now have! Little or no traffic, few visitors, no posts and continuously emigrating members (obviously displeased somehow with the direction taken of this site). You have had it your way already! The site has already tried this "solution" and that "future" of non-TW orientation - and in so many words, it is a ******* disaster. It has damn near killed this site...

If this place truly has no future as a general TW-fansite... Then change the name of this site already and be ******* honest and open about it. That will instantly and permanently lose me as a member too, as I am here ONLY because of TW. I frankly don't give a freaking rats ass about anything else on this site, or its damn off-topic-community. I have zero interest in that, I am not here for that. ...No traffic, no visitors, no posts and mass-emigration to the TWC. That's essentially the result of the ideas expressed in your post, its such stuff and attitudes that put us here in the first place! Why don't you ponder that some, before you add any further input here.

- A

Axalon

09-11-2016, 09:27

I am skeptical that an index restructuring would do any real good. The current indexing was done because it was so hard to find specific subforums for mods and stuff, so I dont think it can be blamed for our declining user base.

You can be skeptical all you want... That won't change the fact that the index is a major part of the problem - if you truly can't see that, then you are in full denial. We have had several years of general decline and it has clearly played a major part of it. The activity dropped sharply right after it was introduced in 2012 and it has essentially never recovered from it. Things has only gotten worse ever since that point (it has damn near killed my sub-forum for instance). The two are clearly connected, obviously its not some supposed "persistent coincidence" that "won't go away"... Its obviously hurting this site, bad... It also disables this site to actually compete with, or offer an alternative to, other TW-sites. While the CA official TW-site made itself irrelevant and a marketing-joke (now more then ever), the TWC is not. The TWC offers better coverage and infrastructure in all regards except for MTW1 and STW1, in these instances it essentially suck as much as this site does (and basically every other site for that matter). BTW people still play those games, imagine that... And as long as they do, they will also be interested in a place that deals with, and covers them in detail, providing stomping grounds and places for discussing it, and without being forced or relegated into a hidden corner of utter obscurity, for simply wanting to do that. All it takes are two serious sections on the index and this place will offer something unique on da entire internetz, right there. Its a virtual freebees, just waiting to be picked up and realized. Yes, it won't bring hordes of people, but it sure as hell will bring some, and more folk here then what this place got now... Its a start, and it is in the right direction, for a change. The maintenance for it will be easy too. Most importantly, it will be competitive and offering something unique, totally unavailable elsewhere. Just set it up, and leave it. Attach 2 moderators to each section (in case someone does not like a particular moderator - it happens - then they can always turn to the other one).

Then lets do that for all games, provide the infrastructure and have it ready for instant use. Let nature have its course. As long as people play the games somehow, people will come, and they will use it. If nothing else, as to serve their own petty needs like "help me with blabla"... It never fails... And some might even stay and begin to build up traffic and a micro community around that game. Having the infrastructure ready for instant use - allows all this, it enables it. The absence of it does not. As simple as that. Obviously, some sections will be larger and more popular then others, but that is natural - its ok - don't worry about that, the site will still benefit regardless of size - just provide the infrastructure and let nature have it course. It sure beats what we got now...

In some 4-5 years down the road, this site could then be a very different place for sure. People will still play and mod these games, and they will still want to go somewhere for it, why not provide them the option of this site? If it can offer attractive and serious enough settings sections for these games, treating each game with equality and respect - people will come - not in hordes, but they will come. As simple as that.

Point is, its going to take something massive to grow our membership and I just dont know what that would be.

You are absolutely right... It will take something massive and initially it will probably be spelled "new index", and "individual sections", and "reboot the TW-focus", and "apply and enforce game-egalitarianism", and "new priorities and practices", and "recognition of micro communities". I gathered that you guys in staff don't like any of that, but that is essentially what it takes.

- A

Montmorency

09-11-2016, 09:34

Oh for **** sake...

If memory serves, you actually supported and defended this damn index in the first place

I didn't. I was almost as vocally against it as you were.

Montmorency

09-11-2016, 09:37

Axalon

09-11-2016, 09:37

I didn't. I was almost as vocally against it as you were.

Really? You had a damn strange way of showing it.

- A

Montmorency

09-11-2016, 10:04

It was my agitation alone which saved the Guild skin and its traditional iconography. My finest moment.

What you might be recalling is that I took a position against your specific proposed index restructuring.

Axalon

09-11-2016, 12:47

By the way, note that Obama was re-elected in 2012. Indeed, that and any random event you might pick out from the world likely had more to do with anything happening to Org traffic than the index change.

Man... You are even in more denial then the other guy... At the same time you are supposedly "against the index-change", umm... This index then... Or did you mean you were against changing this index into something new and better? Because that is exactly the way that particular BS sounds.... Get my drift?

The decline was underway from the time that we were new members.

Even if we decide to assume this to be true somehow... The index-change of 2012 sure did zilch to reverse it - and if anything, it accelerated it....

It was my agitation alone which saved the Guild skin and its traditional iconography. My finest moment.

Umm... Great?

What you might be recalling is that I took a position against your specific proposed index restructuring.

Yup, that's probably it....

And it's OK, I can hardly expect everyone buy into everything I cook up like that - but... - All the other things in that thread? ...All the things you constantly obstructed me with there? Ever sidetracking things on secondary, often nominal details and needless constructs, clearly blurring the actual point and just constantly making it more difficult to actually get thru to the staff. Your "opposition" at the time strike me as feeble and strange to say the least - hell I was getting the feeling you basically fought me, and not the index change, so your opposition towards it sure didn't help the general cause much back then. Much in the same way as this time here I would say. Or surprise me and actually help me here for a change...

- A

Beskar

09-11-2016, 13:23

At the moment, all mods are currently on the main index. This is a change I personally advocated because they were hidden in the old system. This allows users to easily access and navigate them and you never saw the likes of EB which was buried in the sub-forums even though it is one of the top 3 most active sub-forums on the site.

Current system is:
Click on Hosted Mod from Index.

In the old system pre-2012, it used to work like this:
Click on Game, Click on Mod Section, Click on Hosted Mod.

So it took 3 webpages before you even got to see a mod. In this old system, people used to have a separate bookmark for EB for example, which led to isolated communities which never saw any other section on the Org and the rest of the Org never saw them either due to it being buried. It was a strange twilight-zone of forum community being split.

If you honesty feel burying your mod forum within those sections will increase exposure. As a special favour to you, I will make it so with your own. Though, I would personally recommend having it accessed from the Index instead.

As for "Game Egalatiarianism", I can move Warhammer Total War in with the rest of the Total War games, but it is handy for it to be separate due to it being a non-historical title.

edyzmedieval

09-11-2016, 16:12

I do agree that some parts of the forum are now better served by having them on the top, like the hosted mods which have the Org as their home. Much better for fans and mod users to access the necessary forum.

However I do wish we could find a way to condense the amount of info around, there's too many subfora and combined with the lack of activity, it makes the place feel empty. Condensing them in some way makes the place more "home" and doesn't give off the empty impression.

Just my 2 cents.

Hooahguy

09-11-2016, 16:53

That was our reasoning for combining the Rome 2 and Attila subforums.

Axalon

09-11-2016, 16:59

If you honesty feel burying your mod forum within those sections will increase exposure. As a special favour to you, I will make it so with your own. Though, I would personally recommend having it accessed from the Index instead.

Thanks for the offer, but no thanks, you see I totally agree with you on this note, direct index-access is unquestionably the best alternative for any mod. You can see what I was/am thinking below... Its only a DRAFT but does show the general idea here and what I had in mind - essentially all this time. I used a chronological order on the TW-games, and I have discarded "Arena" as it is no true TW-game, we all know it... Anyways it all builds on this standardized model...

TW-game1 - section (individual)
-General Area & Discussion
--whatever sub-for a it needs
--Max 6 sub-fora or it screws with the index...
-Modding Area & Discussion
--whatever sub-for a it needs
--Max 6 sub-for or it screws with the index...
-Hosted Mod (supported & active, if any)
-Hosted Mod no:2 (If any)
-Hosted Mod no:3 (If any)
-Tech Help Area
--whatever sub-fora it needs (If any)

A full draft-version in spoiler...

Index (start)
**********************************
Site & Mega-Community-section (individual)
-?? Greeting hall?
-?? News, announcements, TW-contests & tournaments?
-?? Something else, useful or relevant (if anything)
-?? Something else, useful or relevant (if anything)
-?? Watchtower/administration?
--Max 6 sub forums or it screws with the index.

STW1-section (individual)
-General Area & Discussion
--whatever it needs ...Ask the folks that are into that game what they need and want, set a deadline for it, say 3-4 weeks.
--Max 6 sub forums or it screws with the index.
-Modding Area & Discussion
--whatever it needs ...Ask the folks that are into that game what they need and want, set a deadline for it, say 3-4 weeks.
--Max 6 sub forums or it screws with the index.
-Hosted Mod Placeholder (having the infrastructure ready for instant use)

MTW1-section (individual)
-General Area & Discussion
--MTW-Archive?
--MTW-Guides?
--MTW-Multiplayer?
--whatever it needs ...Ask the folks that are into that game what they need and want, set a deadline for it, say 3-4 weeks.
--whatever it needs
--Max 6 sub forums or it screws up the index.
-Modding Area & Discussion
--Valhalla (of Functional mods) - Abandoned & unsupported Mods...
--The Engineers Guild ...Please consider renaming it?
--Alchemist lab (Please consider renaming it?)
--Repository (Please consider renaming it?)
--The Crypt/(or something) - Abandoned & unsupported Mods
--Mod-Archive?
---Mod-Junkyeard? (unfinished & non-functional ones)
---Mod-Guides?
--whatever it needs
--Max 6 sub forums or it screws up the index.
-Ancient TW (Hosted Mod, alphabetical order used, for instance)
-Pike & Musket (Hosted Mod)
-MTW-Redux (Hosted Mod)
-Tech Help Area

RTW1-section (individual)
-General Area & Discussion
--whatever it needs ...Ask the folks that are into that game what they need and want, set a deadline for it, say 3-4 weeks.
--whatever it needs
--Max 6 sub forums or it screws with the index.
-Modding Area & Discussion
--whatever it needs
--whatever it needs
--Max 6 sub forums or it screws with the index.
-EB1-mod (Hosted Mod)
-Tech Help Area

MTW2-section (individual)
-General Area & Discussion
--whatever it needs ...Ask the folks that are into that game what they need and want, set a deadline for it, say 3-4 weeks.
--whatever it needs
--Max 6 sub forums or it screws with the index.
-Modding Area & Discussion
--whatever it needs
--whatever it needs
--Max 6 sub forums or it screws with the index.
-EB2-mod (Hosted Mod)
-Tech Help Area

Empire-section (individual)
-General Area & Discussion
--whatever it needs ...Ask the folks that are into that game what they need and want, set a deadline for it, say 3-4 weeks.
--Max 6 sub forums or it screws with the index.
-Modding Area & Discussion
--whatever it needs
--Max 6 sub forums or it screws with the index.
-Hosted Mod Placeholder (...Having the infrastructure ready for instant use)
-Tech Help Area

Napoleon-section (individual)
-General Area & Discussion
--whatever it needs ...Ask the folks that are into that game what they need and want, set a deadline for it, say 3-4 weeks.
--Max 6 sub forums or it screws with the index.
-Modding Area & Discussion
--whatever it needs
--Max 6 sub forums or it screws with the index.
-Hosted Mod Placeholder (...Having the infrastructure ready for instant use)
-Tech Help Area

STW2-section (individual)
-General Area & Discussion
--whatever it needs ...Ask the folks that are into that game what they need and want, set a deadline for it, say 3-4 weeks.
--Max 6 sub forums or it screws with the index.
-Modding Area & Discussion
--whatever it needs
--Max 6 sub forums or it screws with the index.
-Hosted Mod Placeholder (...Having the infrastructure ready for instant use)
-Tech Help Area

RTW2-section (individual)
-General Area & Discussion
--whatever it needs ...Ask the folks that are into that game what they need and want, set a deadline for it, say 3-4 weeks.
--Max 6 sub forums or it screws with the index.
-Modding Area & Discussion
--whatever it needs
--Max 6 sub forums or it screws with the index.
-Hosted Mod Placeholder (...Having the infrastructure ready for instant use)
-Tech Help Area

TW Attila-section (individual)
-General Area & Discussion
--whatever it needs ...Ask the folks that are into that game what they need and want, set a deadline for it, say 3-4 weeks.
--Max 6 sub forums or it screws with the index.
-Modding Area & Discussion
--whatever it needs
--Max 6 sub forums or it screws with the index.
-Hosted Mod Placeholder (...Having the infrastructure ready for instant use)
-Tech Help Area

TW Warhammer-section (individual)
-General Area & Discussion
--whatever it needs ...Ask the folks that are into that game what they need and want, set a deadline for it, say 3-4 weeks.
--Max 6 sub forums or it screws with the index.
-Modding Area & Discussion
--whatever it needs
--Max 6 sub forums or it screws with the index.
-Hosted Mod Placeholder (...Having the infrastructure ready for instant use)
-Tech Help Area

Off-topic Area & section (individual)
-?? Tavern?
--whatever it needs, ask the folks that are into that stuff what they need and want...
--whatever it needs
--whatever it needs
--whatever it needs
--whatever it needs
--Max 6 sub forums or it screws with the index.
-??
-??

**********************************

That is basically the kind of Index I am talking about. And I honestly believe
it the only way and future for this place. Disregarding all the various minor
individual details back and forth...

At least now you guys get to have something concrete to disagree with... :D

- A

Axalon

09-11-2016, 17:21

However I do wish we could find a way to condense the amount of info around, there's too many subfora and combined with the lack of activity, it makes the place feel empty. Condensing them in some way makes the place more "home" and doesn't give off the empty impression.

Just my 2 cents.

No, no, no! I object! :D Seriously, that wont matter... Think realistically here for change and not with your fave Org-cosy-blanket in hand... As long as we have emptiness with the full potential of instant use - we will be OK and its is essentially oceans better then any restricted, mashed up, unnatural and unwelcoming infrastructure. It gives this place a sporting chance to compete, and grow, both short and long term. Empty is OK, its natural... No tree stays empty forever, eventually the bird will come and settle there. Same thing applies here if we can just conjure up sexy enough trees... Besides, its already empty, and it isn't biting anybody, and we are used to it by now. Set things up and leave it... Let each game grow organically... Don't screw with it - "patience Grasshopper" or something along those lines...

My mighty goldy coins, two if it helps...

- A

edyzmedieval

09-12-2016, 23:12

I kind of like the arrangement that Axalon proposed, but I do think that the latest titles should be kept at the top.

However, Warhammer TW poses a conundrum because the MP and modding forums are empty. Literally empty. And they're not doing the Org any favours.

Beskar

09-12-2016, 23:55

Might be an idea to have off-topic forums on the top, then hosted mods, then expanded game list. Seems silly the most active areas are near the bottom than at the top.

edyzmedieval

09-13-2016, 00:07

Might be an idea to have off-topic forums on the top, then hosted mods, then expanded game list. Seems silly the most active areas are near the bottom than at the top.

That's true as well.

But there has to be a way to combine this in a way - I would have the Hosted Mods in the middle, definitely, but somehow we need to have the historical TW side first up.

a completely inoffensive name

09-14-2016, 04:10

Attendance dropped when TW games became more spectacle than strategy.

Axalon

09-14-2016, 08:20

Might be an idea to have off-topic forums on the top, then hosted mods, then expanded game list. Seems silly the most active areas are near the bottom than at the top.

The coloring and bolding is mine... Am I correct in the understanding that you will now set up individual and separate full sections for each TW-game? Is such a reading (of that part) accurate? ...?...
Other then that... I have no objections to that order, personally... If you want off-topic on top on the index - fine, have it on top - it makes little difference to me.

But there has to be a way to combine this in a way - I would have the Hosted Mods in the middle, definitely, but somehow we need to have the historical TW side first up.

Well, the simplest solution to that is to put TW-Warhammer at the bottom of the index - using the BS-excuse that its not "historical" and therefore exempted from the standardized order of TW-games on the index, or something along these lines. Its pretty thin, but it will probably still be the most broadly accepted pretense for it. That stunt would then give you just that - "historical" TW on top - and from your post earlier, I assume you want/prefer a reversed chronological order of TW-releases on the index - Attila-section first and STW1-section last. I can live with that. Its either way, chronological or reversed-chronological - its the only two orders that will make sense somehow. Regardless, if you guys decide to go with this mentioned solution on Warhammer, I beg you to be consistent. Once Warhammer 2 shows up and gets released - it too, goes to the bottom of the index...

However, Warhammer TW poses a conundrum because the MP and modding forums are empty. Literally empty. And they're not doing the Org any favours.

I absolutly agree... That the barren emptiness of Multiplayer and Mod sub-index-sections is not doing much for first impressions of the site. Personally, I see no truly good or desirable solutions on it. It seems that the least lousy one is probably replacing Multiplayer sub-section with a Tech-help-Area instead - as the market for that is likely to be better. Move multiplayer to General Area & Discussion and make it a sub-fora under that. As for the Mods Area-section... Move it up, one notch so it follows General Area & Discussions... And leave it... Maybe post an official note there saying something like "management gladly welcomes all and any such activities (modding) on the site for the warhammer game, but it is up to the users/members to make it happen. All management can do, is to deliver, maintain and ensure a place and space for it." - or some such... It won't be completely empty then, and more importantly, the site-administration makes its intentions and stance on the matter known to all. That's better then nothing I think...

Attendance dropped when TW games became more spectacle than strategy.

Even if we assume this to be true in full - plenty of people are still playing the games. And more importantly, these people still play the TW-games they do like - its up to this site to either roll with that, or get overlooked because it didn't. ...Get my drift?

- A

edyzmedieval

09-14-2016, 13:55

I saw some modifications when I came on today, the Warhammer section has been cleaned up. Thank you admins & mods, it looks much better. :bow:

Beskar

09-14-2016, 16:07

I did some renaming and some reorganization where it was simple to decide on.

Just for information, this is what people who visit the Org are accessing (since Jan 2016):

Backroom (Political) 148770
Gameroom 90089
Europa Barbarorum II 36056
Pike & Musket 20859
Arena (Gaming) 16730
Medieval: Total War 13827
Frontroom (General) 11910
Entrance Hall 11890
Total War: Attila and Rome 2 9032
Warhammer: General 8729
Medieval 2: Total War 8466
Monastery (History) 7881
Watchtower 7684
Rome: Total War 6513
Ancient TW 6286
Europa Barbarorum 6265
Shogun: Total War 3667
Guides 3642
Napoleon: Total War 3613
Throne Room 1937
R:TW Multiplayer 1597
KLA Collection 1423
R:TW Guides 1405
Gameroom Assembly Headquarters 1094
MTW-Redux 1079
Modding Questions 1053
Total War: Shogun 2 972
Total War: Arena 672
Rome: Total Realism (RTR) 611
*Rest is below 500 views. Removed sub-forums from list (for example EB2 Mod Support forum).

Montmorency

09-14-2016, 18:31

Any, uh, user breakdown there?

edyzmedieval

09-15-2016, 01:37

Notice the absence of the Empire TW from that list. Interesting.

therother

09-15-2016, 02:56

There is a limitation on how these numbers were calculated: in order to assess recent activity, I had to come up with a way of restricting views to recent times. I chose to set an original thread posting date of this year, so all views would be for this year.There hasn't been a thread posted this year in the Empire TW forum, so there are no valid threads to count. That's not an accurate assessment of the forum's views though. Unfortunately, vBulletin does not record the time/date the thread was viewed so it's the best approximation I could think of.

edyzmedieval

09-15-2016, 20:43

For the rest however, it shows that the off-topic Backroom and the Gameroom are the most popular, but it also shows that our patrons and viewers are still connected with the mod scene of TW and the older TW titles.

Axalon

09-16-2016, 16:17

Just for information, this is what people who visit the Org are accessing (since Jan 2016):

In so many words… That statement and the numbers it presents are severely misleading, deceptive even. I will show and explain some of the how and why that is… I’ll use my own stuff - Redux - as that is the only thing I can get solid statistics on. There are no proof that the massive discrepancy it shows will go across the board - but - it is highly unlikely to be confined or limited to Redux only. I find that hard to believe and very unrealistic. Now, here are the actual and accurate stats on Redux’s top 5 threads in 2016, and its views/visitors, in reality…

Top 5 visited RX-threads: 2016… Thus far...

MTW-Redux general 17095 views
Redux Debug-Area... 7512 views
Redux Install Emergency! 2448 views
Redux & W7... 1916 views
Redux Battle & Tactics 1907 views

That should make a grand total of: 30878 views

So the reality is that Redux have some 30878 views in 2016 so far, and that would place it 4th most popular place at the Org to visit (according to that staff-list), this measuring ONLY the top 5 threads there. I have not even included the 1079 views officially listed… Overall, I find very hard to believe that Redux is the 4th most popular place to visit on this site. - “…, this is what people who visit the Org are accessing (since Jan 2016):" The hell it is… The screens in spoiler below puts that staff-claim to ridiculous shame…

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/redux/images/TheOrg_Jan2016.png

First screen shows the views as it were the 1st Jan 2016... And the second show the numbers for 16th Sep 2016... Do the math...

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/redux/images/TheOrg_Sept2016.png

I have not even begun to comment on the different aspects and traits of TW- and Mod-related discussions Vs. “News & current events”-discussions and how the nature of the two functions radically different or that they (typically) generate and operate highly dissimilar circumstances. For instance, “News & current events” typically generates more fleeting buzz and posts while TW/mod-related topics usually have (fewer posts and) a longevity that essentially and routinely outclass and outlast anything that most “News & current events”-discussions can ever hope to muster. A TW- or Mod-topic can be around and remain relevant for years and years – no such thing ever happened in any “News & current events”-discussion, now have it? Things like that the presented staff-numbers simply fail to consider, as the process of determining and collecting of them have no room for it, it simply ignores it. Its deeply flawed. As a result it is creating a very skewed, unreliable and untrue "representation" of activity/traffic/views that is hardly viable because of the fact. And if staff was honest and serious about all this, they would know this already, and be open about it as the numbers where presented here… This did not happen here, now did it?

And there is more, such as the relevance of “views per post”-indications etc. but that stuff will have wait as I don’t have the time to go further into all this at this point. Suffice to say there is a lot that can be said here about those staff-numbers and on good grounds too. Anyways, I’ll finish this post by re-posting a previous remark of mine that seems highly fitting here as well..

In reality we have 2 out of 7 sections on the index that between themselves somehow deals in some 10-11 TW-games (and some of that TW-marketing-ploy-stuff too. Hi Arena!), and 1 section that deals in hosted major mods/alterations, for ALL TW-games, and 1 section that deals in ALL abandoned previously hosted mods, this for ALL TW-games. At the same time, we have three full sections dedicated for stuff that is not TW-related, to deal with god knows what. 3 full sections on the index… All TW-games got 2… All TW-Mods/alterations this including all the abandoned ones, got 2… ALL side-stuff, off-topic, community-blabla, all non-TW things get 3! That is the reality here...

I have zero problems with all that off-topic, non-TW, community-stuff as such - we can totally keep that around (for all those who wants that). What I do have problems with, is how all that is being elevated to the supposed primary focus, purpose and attraction of this site. This while TW in general, and it the individual TW-games in particular, are being clearly demoted to a near side-show status. It is utterly screwed up, especially for a site that is supposed to be dealing in TW-games, and who built its name and brand by dealing in TW-games - not the latest TW-game, not some off-topic fleeting blabla. It WAS a fan-site for TW-enthusiasts in general and its micro-communities around each game in particular. That is what this place used to be about. That is what this site should still be about, and this site should provide the infrastructure and areas for it. Yet it don’t. As it used to do, in the past, on the index, and beyond. Screw that there are more TW-games released now, its no real excuse. The size of the index should not get to dictate who is to feel welcome here, or be an excuse as to dismantle the rational and natural coverage of TW-games - as has been essentially the case. Or dictate what we all are supposed to be interested in - let us decide that for ourselves. Let us tailor the index how we like and see fit, individually, do not try to force us to use it in your certain preferred damned way...

- A

edyzmedieval

09-16-2016, 17:50

For the most part I think we should focus on how we can get all of those viewers to come here, stay and post, which is what we are not really doing at this moment.

There's a lot of viewers, a lot of lurkers... but not many posters. Which is what hampers the Org.

Question - how can we invite CA to visit this place again?

Husar

09-17-2016, 02:09

In so many words… That statement and the numbers it presents are severely misleading, deceptive even. I will show and explain some of the how and why that is… I’ll use my own stuff - Redux - as that is the only thing I can get solid statistics on. There are no proof that the massive discrepancy it shows will go across the board - but - it is highly unlikely to be confined or limited to Redux only. I find that hard to believe and very unrealistic. Now, here are the actual and accurate stats on Redux’s top 5 threads in 2016, and its views/visitors, in reality…

Top 5 visited RX-threads: 2016… Thus far...

MTW-Redux general 17095 views
Redux Debug-Area... 7512 views
Redux Install Emergency! 2448 views
Redux & W7... 1916 views
Redux Battle & Tactics 1907 views

That should make a grand total of: 30878 views

So the reality is that Redux have some 30878 views in 2016 so far, and that would place it 4th most popular place at the Org to visit (according to that staff-list), this measuring ONLY the top 5 threads there. I have not even included the 1079 views officially listed… Overall, I find very hard to believe that Redux is the 4th most popular place to visit on this site. - “…, this is what people who visit the Org are accessing (since Jan 2016):" The hell it is… The screens in spoiler below puts that staff-claim to ridiculous shame…

The list was of threads posted in 2016, not threads that exist in 2016...

What would be the point of counting visits from 2008 etc. to see which sections are currently being visited the most?

Therother already explained that it is an approximation because the forum does not differentiate views by year, so if you have a thread from 2008 that has 17000 views, it could be that 10000 are from 2008 and 200 from 2016 or it could be the other way around. That's why he only included threads posted in 2016 because they cannot possibly have views from 2008 since vB does not support time travel for threads in the current version.

Before you call other people stupid or liars you may want to check whether the reality you like to talk about is actually real... :creep:

edyzmedieval

09-18-2016, 18:30

Let us not delve into such things, let us focus on how we can improve the Org. :bow:

I reiterate my question - how can we bring back CA over here? I understood that they came, they left, came back, and left again - but it is important, at least as a first step, to have announcements posted by CA over here as well.

:yes:

Hooahguy

09-18-2016, 22:14

I would love to figure out how to get CA back here and have them stay. I think the biggest factor for them leaving after we got them back was that the person who was our liaison with them went to a different company so the connection was severed. Then CA never bothered to connect with us again because we just were not on their radar as a large fansite anymore. When I pop on over to the TW reddit page, most of the community engagement by CA occurs within the discussions (usually CA-related discussions but thats to be expected I guess). So I think to get CA back we need to have active discussions going on. That would be the first step in my opinion.

edyzmedieval

09-18-2016, 22:27

Correct, and I agree with the points you presented above, Hooah.

What I would like to come up with is the fact that simply having them around, at least posting a thread once a month, or posting at least their announcements over here, would bring back discussion as well and make the Org more active.

It takes - 3 minutes? - to post a thread. Their simple presence would help. :yes:

:bow:

Hooahguy

09-21-2016, 04:22

That is certainly true, but unfortunately we cannot force CA to do anything. I will try to reach out again and see what I can do. :bow:

Crandar

09-21-2016, 07:26

For the most part I think we should focus on how we can get all of those viewers to come here, stay and post, which is what we are not really doing at this moment.
I think that most of these guys are spammer wannabes who try to log in and advertise their stuff.

I would love to figure out how to get CA back here and have them stay. I think the biggest factor for them leaving after we got them back was that the person who was our liaison with them went to a different company so the connection was severed. Then CA never bothered to connect with us again because we just were not on their radar as a large fansite anymore. When I pop on over to the TW reddit page, most of the community engagement by CA occurs within the discussions (usually CA-related discussions but thats to be expected I guess). So I think to get CA back we need to have active discussions going on. That would be the first step in my opinion.
Why CA left the first time? Anyway, CA first and foremost needs traffic, they even stopped posting in twc anymore, so I don't think .org has much of a chance. I think only reddit is visited by CA reps. CA posts in other forums, like .org or obscure french strategy sites only when they have a big announcement to make, like the official presentation of a new title. Probably they also cut down their resources, Will and Trish are gone and the new guys will focus on other media, like youtube.

edyzmedieval

09-21-2016, 11:49

There's still a considerable amount of people who lurk daily, all spammers aside. Getting them to log on and start posting and asking questions, and perhaps join mods, would definitely help both sides.

:bow:

Axalon

09-22-2016, 18:22

The list was of threads posted in 2016, not threads that exist in 2016...

Missing the point… It was not presented as such (see post:25) and that is the first point (out of several) I made in my previous post. It was not presented as such and I reacted to that very circumstance because its hardly honest to present it as something completely different – in this case as general, representative and solid statistics. It is clearly nothing of the sort, and thus it (the post) is/was obviously misleading folks, by definition. Besides, even if it had been presented as you would have liked – as 2016-threads only, and only the views that such threads generates – it still struggles with serious relevancy-issues regardless. After all, 2016-threads are hardly alone in generating traffic/views on a site in 2016 (even this one) – and as long as that is a fact, ignoring everything else beyond that limitation hardly makes the results of such an approach any more relevant or representative, now does it? It actually makes it less relevant and representative, if anything. One would think this is obvious. The “2016-threads only” method will thus only yield highly skewed, misleading and flat out impractical results due to the fact. It clearly won’t represent reality well enough somehow, and thus it becomes irrelevant as it has then lost its basic function and meaning here. "Partial reality" don't do us much good here, now does it?

What would be the point of counting visits from 2008 etc. to see which sections are currently being visited the most?

I don’t know… I have not suggested such thing (see my previous post) – you did (right here). Feel free to triple check that all day if you want too, its mentioned about zilch times in all my posts here.

Therother already explained that it is an approximation because the forum does not differentiate views by year, so if you have a thread from 2008 that has 17000 views, it could be that 10000 are from 2008 and 200 from 2016 or it could be the other way around. That's why he only included threads posted in 2016 because they cannot possibly have views from 2008 since vB does not support time travel for threads in the current version.

Is this a bad joke? I am well aware of what and when Therother have explained his intentions and motives here. Its thanks to him that I got a chance to actually evaluate the staff traffic-list seriously in the first place. Regardless, you post as if the screens I forwarded does not exist or that any reference to these never existed in my post (they are fully visible in their entirety, using the Chrome-browser for instance). You have thus decided to actively ignore the very material that actually proves and makes another significant point I was making here. The screens of post: 30 are crystal clear in their numbers and in the statistics they deliver. They leave no doubts about views generated in 2016 what so ever (up to 16th sep) in that specific area of the site, or about the enormous discrepancy that they (the screens) illustrate compared with the presented traffic/views-list by staff. Once you actually bother to look at those screens you can see that as well. It’s a question of basic maths. They even have timestamps, 1st Jan and 16th Sep, 2016. It can hardly get any much clearer, or more obvious, then that. The numbers are in contrast actually accurate for this specific case (Redux) and (its) area - and you can triple check that all day if you want too.

If the staff don’t have such solid statistics for the site, then they don't have solid statistics for the site, as simple as that – act accordingly and seriously about it. Don't conjure up some half-ass "solution" that won't work anyways (as explained above) and then try to sell that to us as reliable statistics to compensate for the void of actual solid statistics here, because that is both dishonest and stupid. And we all know it. Either you learn from this obvious screw up and improve on your practices so it won't happen again - or you continue to screw up some more on this note, again and again - and you(/staff) will look needlessly ridiculous and unserious in the process. Understand?

Before you call other people stupid or liars you may want to check whether the reality you like to talk about is actually real... :creep:

First of all, at least try to be accurate for a change... Secondly, don’t try to be witty here, it doesn't agree with you. Thirdly, its hardly my fault if people decide to act stupid or dishonest - very especially so while representing the site in general (on these boards, regardless of context). But, it certainly is my (and everyone else's) fault if I (/we) don’t point that out whenever it does happen in any official or formal capacity. Assuming here, that I (/we) actually do want to help and improve the site and the staff that serves it somehow. Of course, I (/we) could do nothing and pretend its raining (as most people seem to do here), but do I then really help the site? Nope, I (/we) do not…

Lastly, you are hardly in a position to tell me about handling reality, much unlike yourself I have actually dealt with what you have posted here (all of it) and not some junk I made up in your name. The fact that you have done this (here) as a member of staff certainly isn’t doing much for the image of this site, or its staff at large, or you personally for that matter. In short, its annoying, its rude, its stupid and it’s a waste of time for all (yup, you too).

Get my drift?

- A

Axalon

09-22-2016, 18:38

For the most part I think we should focus on how we can get all of those viewers to come here, stay and post, which is what we are not really doing at this moment.

Not entirely true… I certainly tried thus far to enable/advocate a drastic change on the index as that clearly is major player in that equation. After all, the index is the first thing a visitor sees, and its the very first thing (s)he will react too as well and it will be a major factor for sticking around as well, I would imagine. As long as staff refuse to change the index, and it continues to look like this, (s)he will soon leave for TWC most likely, as that index simply outclass the Org in how it deals with all TW-games (except for MTW1 and STW1). Thus the current index basically disables this site to actually compete effectively because of it - due to the generally inferior treatment and coverage of TW-games on the index (as is).

Let me illustrate this clearly... We get a big fat monitor… On it, we open up a page of the Org-index and a page of the TWC-index on the monitor – side by side. Now we call in “visitor X” who has no prior relation to either site, and who’s fave TW-game happens to be - say MTW2 (or whatever) - and have her seated in front of the monitor. Now we ask her “which of these two places will you go? To get your average MTW2-info and fix? …The site that offers its own dedicated section for this game, and some 5 sub-sections, directly visible on the index (the TWC)? Or will you go for the site with no such dedicated section for this game and 1 sub-section for it, directly visible on the index (the Org)? Which one would you prefer to go to? You have can’t have both.” …At a minimum, 9 out of 10 times it will be TWC for the win. BECAUSE of the index and how it is designed. That is why the index is important and that is why it must change into something that actually can compete with other sites (like the TWC). That is why each TW-game need its own sections. As long as this staff and site-management refuse to do that index-change, this site will not be able to compete effectively – that means less active and interested visitors here, thus posts by extension. As simple as that.

We have now had and tried this (damned) index for some 4+ years and it has done little else but consistently damaged this site ever since. People have obviously left this place because of it and many other reasons. The index (and its TW-coverage) has too change. If not the index is changed, essentially all other stuff proposed here will probably soon lose much/most of its intended effect and meaning.

There's a lot of viewers, a lot of lurkers... but not many posters. Which is what hampers the Org.

Agreed...

Question - how can we invite CA to visit this place again?

Forget CA... Those guys are essentially irrelevant these days anyhow (much by their own handiwork and policies), and they obviously don't care about the TW-communities as they probably don't believe there are much money or value in it - had they actually cared about this place somehow, then they would have showed that, long time ago. And they have not. So bothering with the CA is a dead end (most likely). Don't waste precious resources or manpower on that, surely it can be used to better things then that. Just saying...

- A

Husar

09-22-2016, 19:39

Get my drift?

Sorry, no.
Should have made yourself clearer instead of intentionally misleading me I guess. :rolleyes:

edyzmedieval

09-22-2016, 20:43

Axalon

09-23-2016, 08:02

Bringing CA back would help us in the way that, although it might not bring back a ton of members, it's important to be there, because inevitably people will be interested. I do propose contacting CA with a specific task - have their community team do a Rally Point on the community.

Do what you must... However I get the general feeling that many folks are probably more interested in the TW-games themselves, rather then keeping tabs on the latest marketing-ploy of CA... Maybe its just me...

***

Sorry, no. Should have made yourself clearer instead of intentionally misleading me I guess. :rolleyes:

Again...

...don’t try to be witty here, it doesn't agree with you.

- A

edyzmedieval

09-23-2016, 15:53

The idea behind it is that given the attention brought on towards the communities by CA, this will in turn generate traffic and encourage more engagement within the community. This is the core idea in the end - making sure that there's more engagement within the community, both from CA with us, and from us with CA.

:bow:

edyzmedieval

09-26-2016, 01:18

Axalon

09-26-2016, 15:23

Floating an idea here - how about getting some content, such as TW videos, from Org members to display on the front page? I keep seeing the videos on the side but some fresh content would be a good idea. Or suggest a couple of videos, let's say 20, and rotate them on the side, keeping things fresh.

What difference will any of that make as long as the index remains unchanged? Everything start with index, as I have already pointed out. Its the first thing a visitor sees. Its the first thing a visitor reacts to. Its the first thing that encourages her to leave this place. Assuming here that she is into TW-games at all (...then again visiting a place calling it self "totalwar.org" is kind of a give away - imagine that). How hard can it be to fathom?

Why do this administration insist on keeping this poor and awful index?
It makes zero sense, it is not rational, yet it remains. Why?

- A

ReluctantSamurai

09-26-2016, 16:25

Just for information, this is what people who visit the Org are accessing (since Jan 2016):

Backroom (Political) 148770

A sad indictment, IMHO, on what the Org has become...a local "bar & grill" to visit and trade BS on the latest news:shrug:

Might be an idea to have off-topic forums on the top, then hosted mods, then expanded game list. Seems silly the most active areas are near the bottom than at the top.

Putting the "bar & grill" at the top would only feed more into what is already happening. Most gaming sites that I frequent (though not all), place off-topic discussions at or near the bottom of the index.

Let me illustrate this clearly... We get a big fat monitor… On it, we open up a page of the Org-index and a page of the TWC-index on the monitor – side by side. Now we call in “visitor X” who has no prior relation to either site, and who’s fave TW-game happens to be - say MTW2 (or whatever) - and have her seated in front of the monitor. Now we ask her “which of these two places will you go? To get your average MTW2-info and fix? …The site that offers its own dedicated section for this game, and some 5 sub-sections, directly visible on the index (the TWC)? Or will you go for the site with no such dedicated section for this game and 1 sub-section for it, directly visible on the index (the Org)? Which one would you prefer to go to?

Agree with this. Everything related to a particular TW game should be in one place. That means general discussion, guides, mods, technical information....everything. I don't want to have to visit several sections to find what I want. As an example: MTW. There's parts of the game in Historical Total War Titles, Hosted Mods, and Hosted Mods (Archive). Someone looking for Redux or Samurai Warlords will only visit Hosted Mods/Hosted Mods (Archive) if they are specifically looking for them. A new visitor may not even realize that those two mods even exist (granted SW is STW ported to MTW).

I missed all the discussion back when the index was changed:embarassed: but I would certainly have voted against it (if my vote even counted). I don't see the problem with structuring the index much like TWC, though we certainly don't need to be mere copycats.

Most everyone here agrees that our decline began with TWC's rise. Any good organization takes a long hard look at what the competition that is kicking its' a$$ is doing to be successful.:shrug:

Oh, and I agree that attempting to attract CA back here is a waste of time and energy. If the site becomes something more attractive than it is, they might stop in of their own accord. They stopped coming here for a reason....the Org isn't relevant and thus not worth the time.

And here's an idea: according to Org statistics we have 28,678 members total, but less than 1% of them are active members. Why don't we poll the other 99%+ as to why they don't come here anymore? I'm sure the #1 reason will be that they now have a life/family/career and don't have time/interest in gaming anymore, but surely there will be a list of other reasons that might be helpful in identifying why the Org is no longer a destination~:smoking:

Axalon

09-28-2016, 15:06

So... It was some 48h ago I posted my explicit question here: "Why do this administration insist on keeping this poor and awful index?". I'm sure that someone in staff or management must have seen it by now. Yet no reply, no explanation, no nothing... Does this mean we are back to the good 'ol silent treatment on da index - yet again? Back to failing to actually defend what you guys insist upon all the same - back to playing the admin wins card? Is that it? If so, not even a record of some 4 years of consistent failure and damage seems to have had much effect or difference here, now has it? I certainly hoped it would register by now, but apparently we will have too wait some more, it seems. All while the site continues to slowly die...

To be honest, the index is slowly killing the site and zilch is done about it. That annoys me. Off-topic areas are not the future of this site, it never was, and some 4 years down the road of clearly focusing on discussions on "current events" or whatever non-TW stuff has made all that abundantly clear. There are less people active here then ever before. The only rational conclusion can be that it has thus not done this place any favours - despite repeated tries by staff to suggest otherwise. The obvious can only be denied for so long, or so many times guys.

***

A sad indictment, IMHO, on what the Org has become...a local "bar & grill" to visit and trade BS on the latest news:shrug:

Fully agreed...

- A

edyzmedieval

09-28-2016, 20:57

Just a quick idea - can we find a way to promote this post, or at least host the package made by Macsen Rufus?

People still play MTW, and especially now with the Steam version, and some people might want to mod and it's essential for them. :yes:

MTW Tools Package - https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?152123-Tools-MTW&p=2053715491&viewfull=1#post2053715491

:bow:

Monk

09-29-2016, 01:57

Agree with this. Everything related to a particular TW game should be in one place. That means general discussion, guides, mods, technical information....everything. I don't want to have to visit several sections to find what I want. As an example: MTW. There's parts of the game in Historical Total War Titles, Hosted Mods, and Hosted Mods (Archive). Someone looking for Redux or Samurai Warlords will only visit Hosted Mods/Hosted Mods (Archive) if they are specifically looking for them. A new visitor may not even realize that those two mods even exist (granted SW is STW ported to MTW).

i was just coming to the watchtower to make a thread to suggest this, but here it is put very well. thank you! I fully endorse this.

I haven't posted here in years but i've been playing Rome 2 in my free time a heck of a lot, and it brought back some good memories of this place. I dont mind the smaller crowd, but i think since the crowd is smaller, centralization would make this place feel a lot homier.

edit:

Oh, and I agree that attempting to attract CA back here is a waste of time and energy. If the site becomes something more attractive than it is, they might stop in of their own accord. They stopped coming here for a reason....the Org isn't relevant and thus not worth the time.

too right. the industry has moved away from giving small forums attention unless its a huge deal. there's just nothing in it for them. it's not just this place that has seen that treatment, but many others. times change.

Gregoshi

09-29-2016, 04:54

Okay, let's pretend the forum index is "fixed", we've reached out to CA and promoted the MTW Tools Package. What other suggestions does anyone have to revive the Org?

edyzmedieval

09-29-2016, 09:08

Here's some ideas:

- invite local YouTubers, ones who activate on the Org, to submit their content so we can promote it over here (as I've said, the videos on the sidebar need refreshing - they haven't been changed in like 2-3 years)
- Org competition - an AAR competition would work out for a start
- cross-promotion - I've mentioned this before, but some other gaming sites would be interested in simply adding a good backlink and exchange advertising space for a little while to draw traffic (Warhammer website perhaps?)
- NEWSLETTER - when the time of the new historical Total War comes, definitely a newsletter to inform ALL members about the new game :yes:

I'll come with some more.

For the moment I understand we're in a bind - but the next historical TW is coming, so when that is coming, at least the announcement in the next 6-9 months, we should be ready and prepared with at least some more posters. And once the anouncement is released, invite everyone back for discussions.

ReluctantSamurai

09-29-2016, 12:16

What other suggestions does anyone have to revive the Org?

I'll repeat my earlier suggestion...poll our own members as to why they don't visit much anymore. IIRC, one has to have an e-mail addy to join, yes?:shrug: Collecting data on some of our short-comings would help point the way to what needs to be done....

Montmorency

09-29-2016, 12:41

Collecting data on some of our short-comings

Maybe their lives just don't have a particular place for this forum? We aren't trying to push a product here.

Gregoshi

09-29-2016, 14:45

I'll repeat my earlier suggestion...poll our own members...
My bad. I missed that suggestion when composing my post.

Axalon

09-29-2016, 15:35

Okay, let's pretend the forum index is "fixed", we've reached out to CA and promoted the MTW Tools Package. What other suggestions does anyone have to revive the Org?

Why just pretend? Why not do? Why not do now? What are you waiting for? I rather (start) fix the index now for all TW-games, then pretend its "fixed" for some unknown time later. Besides, once the index is "fixed" or at least more serious/attractive/competitive for all TW-games, we will know that 1). you guys, in staff, finally mean business about getting this site back on track again. 2). whatever other ideas that comes up might get a sporting chance to have an effect. Without a serious index for all TW-games in place, not much else will matter anyhow. Again, it all starts with the index...

- A

edyzmedieval

09-29-2016, 16:07

Ax, let's focus on other ideas now. I'm pretty sure the mods have got your point about the index, we need more ideas besides the index to bring this place up to super scratch. ~:)

Beskar

09-29-2016, 17:18

ReluctantSamurai

09-29-2016, 17:32

Maybe their lives just don't have a particular place for this forum? We aren't trying to push a product here.

In an earlier post I already suggested that the #1 reason for not coming here anymore will most likely be: life/family/no longer play. Doesn't mean there aren't other reasons: don't like the mods, don't like the forum structure, other sites that sponsor TW games are more interesting, etc., etc., etc. With over 28k members, a poll will likely turn up some useful information. Not sure which product you are referring to...the games (which 'push' themselves), or the Org, which we definitely need to 'push' if we are to remain a viable site:shrug:

My bad. I missed that suggestion when composing my post.

No problems mate...I do it all the time, myself~;)

Ax, let's focus on other ideas now.

But his idea is the easiest, and at least in the short term, most viable way of implementing changes to make the Org more attractive.:winkg:

Axalon

09-29-2016, 23:32

Ax, let's focus on other ideas now.

Lets not.... Because.... Without a serious index for all TW-games in place, not much else suggested here will actually matter or have much effect anyhow. This is especially true long term. Its not about some damn short-term fix but to actually make this place relevant and active again. The site needs an index that actually allows and enables that. Again, it all starts with the index... So, lets start where it matters the most - the beginning. You don't start in the middle and worry about the foundation later, now do you? Same thing applies here.

- A

Monk

09-30-2016, 00:07

Lets not.... Because.... Without a serious index for all TW-games in place, not much else suggested here will actually matter or have much effect anyhow. This is especially true long term. Its not about some damn short-term fix but to actually make this place relevant and active again. The site needs an index that actually allows and enables that. Again, it all starts with the index... So, lets start where it matters the most - the beginning. You don't start in the middle and worry about the foundation later, now do you? Same thing applies here.

- A

i heartily agree. if you'd like to improve the site then lets focus on bringing what people we already have together.

I see a lot of names, some old, and some new, and id love to talk about total war, video games and what have you with everyone here! But i feel like everyone is in one or two small places around the site and its difficult to start a conversation. I think the best way to improve the site is to bring the members who are here right now closer together. ~:)

Gregoshi

09-30-2016, 05:33

id love to talk about total war... What do we want to talk about? If there is something we want discuss, we need to start a thread. Or we need to find a new thread and join in the discussion - especially if it was started by an new patron and definitely if they are new to the TW games. We need to engage them and draw upon our experiences to help them. Their excitement with discovering a new game might just re-ignite our passion for it as well. We all want to talk TW like in the good old days, but we seem to have stopped making the effort to do so. Discussions just don't happen. We have to contribute, because in the beginning, that is why the Org was so good. We had exceptional, in-depth and lively discussions. The Org didn't write articles, have contests (or not many), or other such manufactured content. The Org's content was from us, the patrons. Be it inter-clan banter, strategy and tactical discussions, game mechanics analysis, AARs, guides and mods, we the patrons did it for the love of the games.

Of course, back then, things were simple in that there were only a couple of TW games and we were intensely focused on those games. Today we have about 10 TW games covering a variety to eras that may or may not be our personal cup of tea. Add to that an evolution/revolution of the TW game systems which not all of us have been fond of. This leaves us with a huge index (had to mention that) and a shrinking patron-base that is further diluted by such a broad spectrum of games. Such is our current predicament.

I've already ventured into the realm of tl;dr so I'll wrap it up. The Org staff can do some things with tools at our disposal. However, the Org staff did not make the Org great. The patrons made the Org great. So, are we up for the challenge to begin the climb back to our former glory? Um, that is, after the index gets fixed, of course. ~;)

Tuuvi

09-30-2016, 06:53

edyzmedieval

09-30-2016, 07:42

Lets not.... Because.... Without a serious index for all TW-games in place, not much else suggested here will actually matter or have much effect anyhow. This is especially true long term. Its not about some damn short-term fix but to actually make this place relevant and active again. The site needs an index that actually allows and enables that. Again, it all starts with the index... So, lets start where it matters the most - the beginning. You don't start in the middle and worry about the foundation later, now do you? Same thing applies here.

- A

Ax, I'm referring to the fact that the index problem, the mods know about it and you have explained it in depth already. What I wanted to say is that, apart from the index problem, which will be needed to be solved, let's think of other ideas ON TOP of the index problem. ~:)

The index doesn't alone solve the membership problems if we do not have the members.

:bow:

Axalon

09-30-2016, 13:56

i heartily agree. if you'd like to improve the site then lets focus on bringing what people we already have together.

Its a fine sentiment in general and all, but have a quote...

...thinking in terms of “Org-community” as one supposed homogenous “team”/group - its not. Or even views the TW-community as a homogenous group of people - its not. These notions are just inadequate, obsolete and lazy oversimplifications that we could do without. As it is, both are highly heterogeneous, and get increasingly so, for each and every new game-release and year. The very idea of a TW-community might have functioned - well enough - back in 2000-2005, but it does not in 2016. Same thing applies to the “Org-community”…

There are so many and different TW-games these days that they no longer can seriously serve as a common enough ground to build a sense of actual community around, its merely a poor and lazy catch-phrase to cover it all. That role has been effectively transferred to each individual game or activity (of choice). The games are different, and so are the people that play them. Some folks prefer TW-X while others are totally into TW-Y yet both are dubbed TW-games. Management has completely failed to consider, let alone act on this. And TW-X will always serve as a much stronger force of generating a sense community because it provides much more common ground between its players then the umbrella-concept of TW ever will.

The reality here is that we have micro-communities, clustered around a single game or activity (of choice) - and that we will continue get more and more of these, as more games are released. Its also possible that individual might select to be active in more then one micro-community at a time, but we can not, and should not force it. Regardless, management has failed to grasp any of this, and as result done nothing as to adjust this site to this reality. And I can guarantee that recognizing and adapting fully to the concept of micro-communities will somehow be required element in order to secure that “win” for this place. Most visitors come here for the games, specific games and/or activities. If this place can not attractively enough cater too and offer sexy enough stomping grounds for that, it will lose that visitor. ...As is exactly what has happened here.

Now… If a micro-community is sacrificed or forced somehow as to serve a sites general “super-community” at large - for whatever end - I will always be against it. To me, its plain wrong, and it will eventually kill this (or any) sites chances to seriously compete and grow, long term for sure. Rather, think in terms of what serves each micro-communities the best and first, and a sites general super-community second. If you manage to do that, you will have won a great victory right there and then for this site, long term. Working with the micro-communities is the way forward, working against or forcing them somehow to conform to externally motivated or serving goals (regardless the kind), is not. Every game obviously have a micro-community somehow, think rather in terms of what serves every such specific micro-community the best and individually, and this place will probably prosper somehow (in general). Thinking only and typically in terms of a general site super-community and it probably won't... That's my analysis. And so far, I have seen little that would suggest otherwise. (And this is not me saying that all super-community efforts should be abandoned on principle - just be cautious and careful with that stuff.)

- A

Axalon

09-30-2016, 14:16

On one interesting note, Axalon's fix is undoing edyzmedieval's fix for Warhammer: Total War. Instead of having empty/quiet forums within a game section, Avalon is suggesting they be on the main index, bloating it with sub-forums that receive next to no use.

Maybe I’m reading you all wrong, but you look at this “Axalon-fix” with a short-term-only perspective - expand your perspective. The suggestions on that was devised with a long-term perspective and general competitiveness in mind, not short-term fixes and cosiness. A section that might be empty to today, need not necessarily stay that way forever, or be true for tomorrow. That is - IF - we can bother too offer/build up attractive enough settings for each game, ready for instant use - whenever the chance comes. My drafted model enables such instant use, it enables the possibility for people to start building up a section and micro-community there - whenever they like too - simply by the generous infrastructure offered there - generous enough to be seriously hard to pass on. Which is basically the whole point. Generating activity and interest by advantageous, attractive, and overtly dedicated settings - effectively competing. This regardless the game. That in turn drastically increases the sites overall chances of hitting home for every visitor that comes here, regardless of her preferences. If we got all games covered with equal measure, we will hit home be sheer default… The overall chance for him/her staying here increases big time - "this place have all I need, are interested in and more... The other sites don't have all that, like this, or as visible..." And you basically hooked yourself another interested member, willing to stick around some more, possibly posting here as well. That’s the general idea with my draft…

The "Edyz-fix" (on warhammer) does hardly afford any of that. It does not even consider such things as it its only focuses on short term cosiness and goals. While long term, its actually crippling/damaging a section to serve some short-term-only supposed cosy feeling. Why? It disables the sections chances to grow and compete with other sites counterparts - simply because it does not afford or allow attractive enough settings for people interested in that game (Warhammer in this case). It bunches up things, it decreases index-visibility and overview on what’s happening in that area. The very stuff that makes it less competitive with other sites, structurally speaking. As people will and can get better settings and infrastructure elsewhere, they will naturally will go there, instead of here. As long as this place can offer generous settings for TW-game1, it got a chance to grow and compete. Failing that, this place end up with no chance in that particular game. That's the difference here between the two “fixes”. A chance (somehow) for growth, or no (or disabled) chance for growth.

And yes, this do come at the price that the index will be larger, this is true - if implemented. Then again, a larger index is a small and easy price to pay as to increase this sites chances for survival - I think anyways. Bunching stuff together (especially things that do not naturally belong together) to make short term gains in "cosy", typically means slow death in general.

Speaking of popular forums which use a similar layout, there is Paradoxplaza which the structure of that was originally inspired from, as it provided an area for people to contribute in general, then specific sub-forums for dedicated space.

I can only speak for myself, and… That (Paradoxplaza) layout just suck, even for such games, hell for any games. Personally, I would eagerly go elsewhere if I was presented a choice. In terms of TW, as long as the TWC exists, that's probably the place where I would go, as most folk already have. Much for the same reasons I would imagine. I'll take that superior TWC-index any day over that poor Paradox-index layout.

This kept the game community more unified opposed to more spread out.

I don’t buy that a sites general super-community is a healthy or viable way of approaching things or a much useful perspective anywhere actually - or how to successfully construct a strong and flexible index for that matter. That Paradox-layout essentially serve as a warning example of what we should NOT do. Its riddled with flaws, failures and short-comings. And as long as the TWC exists, this place have little choice but to compete on those terms (thank god for the TWC!), as it simply kills any such layout all over. It outshines and outdoes it in every turn, making it plain irrelevant. As is essentially what have happened to this site.

Just read post:65 again… And think over what I am trying to say there about micro-communities…

The other suggestion was simply reversing the order the games were presented in, so older games at the top and newer games at the bottom. If this 'fix' was really so clear-cut, I would have done it already. But honesty, that change will have no impact on anything.

Not entirely true… What I actually did do in that draft, was to use a chronological order in my forwarded index-draft as I had only two rational options to go with - chronological or reversed chronological order. I selected the former as that is the one most rarely used in various TW-forums thus far. A chronological order would (at least in a small way help) set this place apart more then just doing what everyone else already does (using a reversed chronological order) - while still remaining perfectly easy to understand and follow all the same. In truth it makes little difference to me personally which order is used of the two, but I think I prefer the chronological one, myself.

Regardless, it will have impact on the site somehow, and there is zero doubt about it. So declaring that it “will have no impact on anything.” - is simply untrue (or BS, whatever you prefer). Obviously it will set this place apart from the rest – as already mentioned. It would also make the short-term supposed "Warhammer-problem" with inactive/unused sub-sections/forums disappear all the way down to the bottom of the index - short term anyways. Long term that should not matter much, if all things are properly set up (for Warhammer that is). Thirdly, and this is the most significant part (I think), as it is, short term, the MTW1-section and the RTW1-section are both probably among the top3 strongest/most active micro-(TW-)communities on this site at this point - why should these folks have their games placed near the bottom of a site, when that very site is clearly screaming for activity? These sections are more active then essentially everything else TW-wise, especially if we include mods in that. Makes little sense right? A chronological order would actually handle that more effectively then a reversed order would, as the latter places (almost) all and (currently) less active TW-games ahead of these two.

So... It certainly can have an impact on something for this site - that is - if we bother to examine things seriously enough. The "no impact on anything"-notion is without substance and its untrue. It will clearly have an impact on something, if applied on this site, there is little doubt about that. It would be very good news for RTW1 and MTW1, if implemented, that much is clear... It would also be bad news for Attila and RTW2, that much is also clear. So, it will have impact, alright...

I have made minor changes to the index, and elsewhere based on posts in here already, it is part of the practice of adapting and reacting to feedback.

Again, it’s the big changes that this place really needs, the sooner you get on that, the better.
I have already helped you with a basic draft. I will try to help you some more - if you let me.

- A

Axalon

09-30-2016, 14:20

Ax, I'm referring to the fact that the index problem, the mods know about it and you have explained it in depth already. What I wanted to say is that, apart from the index problem, which will be needed to be solved, let's think of other ideas ON TOP of the index problem. ~:)

The index doesn't alone solve the membership problems if we do not have the members.

:bow:

Naturally, and for the time being, I’ll leave all that to you, as I am hardly opposed to any of that… Hopefully, I will get to that point as well, once I can see that the index is actually happening in a satisfactory and sensible fashion. And, once the STW1 and MTW1-sections are decent and presentable enough too (my fave games) - I’ll join you (and others) on that note - but I am simply not there yet. As for all the other TW-games, I’ll generally and gladly leave that to the folks that know that stuff and such details better then I do. I’m sure there are folk ready to step up for their fave game here – whatever that may be…

Edyz, if you want/prefer to call for a thread-
split or something, I will not fight you for it.

- A

Axalon

09-30-2016, 14:42

What do we want to talk about? If there is something we want discuss, we need to start a thread. Or we need to find a new thread and join in the discussion - especially if it was started by an new patron and definitely if they are new to the TW games. We need to engage them and draw upon our experiences to help them. Their excitement with discovering a new game might just re-ignite our passion for it as well. We all want to talk TW like in the good old days, but we seem to have stopped making the effort to do so. Discussions just don't happen. We have to contribute, because in the beginning, that is why the Org was so good. We had exceptional, in-depth and lively discussions.

This part, I like…

The Org didn't write articles, have contests (or not many), or other such manufactured content. The Org's content was from us, the patrons. Be it inter-clan banter, strategy and tactical discussions, game mechanics analysis, AARs, guides and mods, we the patrons did it for the love of the games.

This part not so much… And I would definitely say that these notions are, and certainly was, part of the overall problem. Manufactured content, will generate interest somehow, somewhere. Fleeting chatter that do not lend itself for any kind of third party use later on – not so much…

Of course, back then, things were simple in that there were only a couple of TW games and we were intensely focused on those games. Today we have about 10 TW games covering a variety to eras that may or may not be our personal cup of tea. Add to that an evolution/revolution of the TW game systems which not all of us have been fond of. This leaves us with a huge index (had to mention that) and a shrinking patron-base that is further diluted by such a broad spectrum of games. Such is our current predicament.

All this is true, and I think you should take it to the next level – recognize, accept and respect the micro-communities as that is part of what needs to be done here. After all, that is the kind of future we can expect, regardless if we may like it or not. I will also comment on your index-remark – of course. That huge index you talk about is a rather small necessity as to ensure that this place can compete and thus survive. Its virtual space, it’s a small price to pay for keeping this site (alive)…. I would think… There, I had to mention that… :)

The Org staff can do some things with tools at our disposal. However, the Org staff did not make the Org great. The patrons made the Org great. So, are we up for the challenge to begin the climb back to our former glory? Um, that is, after the index gets fixed, of course. ~;)

Even if that is supposedly true back in 2000-2005, you can be very sure that you guys in staff/management will have too be great in your own right in 2016 - in order for this site to get another chance at “glory”. Like it or not, you are a part of the solution, an active part, not passive. I suggest you consider increasing your manpower as to deal with that reality (if at all possible, double up on moderators or something). And the sooner you realize this, the better… My take on this...

Um, that is, after the index gets fixed, of course. ~;)

Of course… Lets make it happen then, shall we? :)

- A

Axalon

09-30-2016, 15:17

I wonder how much of the Org's failure to attract new members in more recent years has to do with the rise of Reddit. Because Reddit has such a big user base and hundreds of different subreddits I wouldn't be surprised if people go straight to Reddit when they're looking for an online community instead of trying to find a dedicated fan site.

I think the "internetz" has room for both... And it probably serves different kind of needs (I would imagine). Personally, I have not even bother with or explored Reddit at all... That's just me...

I think traditional forums like this one are better for long winded, in-depth discussions...

Quite possibly... Still there is room for both, I would think... We can be certain that the near monopoly this site had TW-wise around 2000 will never come back, and therefore it needs adjust and act accordingly. Adapt and overcome essentially. Besides, I love them "long winded, in-depth discussions"... Especially so on my fave games - that's basically what I am in business for! (More or less anyways.) The Whole "TLDR"-routine, is just a poor excuse for not making an real effort, or lacking the talent for it to begin with - this on general terms, of course. I have never really seen the supposed value of that thing. Sorry all you "TLDR"-believers - you are just a bunch of lazy, untalented and worthless bums or some such along those lines... :) A bit more seriously, this is a text-based forum, if "you" can't bother yourself to read and write more then a few words - what the hell are you doing here?!? ...Out of all places? ...You know?

The Org is like a small business getting out-competed by Wal-Mart.

True up to a point... That is if this site fails to adapt and specialize... Obviously it will be essentially futile to even try to compete on "Wal-Marts" own strong points... Another lesson that the staff here needs to recognize and deal with (if not done already).

- A

Monk

09-30-2016, 15:41

What do we want to talk about?

Thats all you focused on in the two posts i made? Dude ~:(

I dont want to start a discussion with myself. Everyone is off in their own hidey holes and the main forums are a ghost town with 1 or 2 folks checking them. Visible activity breeds the desire to join in, and this site's biggest problem is I can't see activity. I know there are people here, i just don't know where to look.

What do we want to talk about? If there is something we want discuss, we need to start a thread. Or we need to find a new thread and join in the discussion - especially if it was started by an new patron and definitely if they are new to the TW games. We need to engage them and draw upon our experiences to help them. Their excitement with discovering a new game might just re-ignite our passion for it as well. We all want to talk TW like in the good old days, but we seem to have stopped making the effort to do so. Discussions just don't happen. We have to contribute, because in the beginning, that is why the Org was so good. We had exceptional, in-depth and lively discussions. The Org didn't write articles, have contests (or not many), or other such manufactured content. The Org's content was from us, the patrons. Be it inter-clan banter, strategy and tactical discussions, game mechanics analysis, AARs, guides and mods, we the patrons did it for the love of the games.

I know. Froggy, Ludens and I made the Mead Hall. If you want to be technical, i think tosa or Ser Clegane made it. But it was our continued creative efforts that made people think "hey maybe there's a need for a place like this" I know what goes into making content for a website. I ran contents. I made avatars. the one you're using. ~:) I'm fully aware of what makes a community work..

edyzmedieval

09-30-2016, 15:58

I'm fine with keeping the suggestions in this thread - we need to make this thread always on, pulsating and always getting the attention it needs, because we're really lacking here at the Org in activity and threads like this always provide attention. ~:)

That being said, let's look at our options...

Index (short-term) - my short term fix was to put the Warhammer sections into one bigger one, and Beskar kindly put it into practice. :bow: Warhammer does not get attention at the Org, most of our patrons are focused on historical TW, and having that empty part would just scare people away, particularly new patrons. It was a proposal aimed at making the place cosier and more inviting. We can have similar ideas on other sections as well.
Index (long-term) - clearly, the index needs some revamping. It needs to make sure that new patrons are kindly invited to contribute, older patrons are active on the website and making sure that the most popular sections get the necessary attention but also not too much that would take away attention from the less popular sections. Axalon has provided ideas, and while we did agree on a revamped forum index some time ago, it needs improvement.
Attracting new patrons - a ton of lurkers, a ton of viewers, but few posters. We need to attract more patrons and to entice them to enlist to the Org. Suggestions in the previous posts
Up the discussion levels - not enough discussions. We need to ensure more engagement from our patrons, both old and new.
Ensure Org content - TWC produces a ton of it's own content, which means that people are always engaged with TWC in itself, rather than just TW. I'm sure that Org patrons produce their own content, we need to invite them to submit their own work for the Org, if they would kindly accept.
Promotion of Org content - Similar to the point above. Very recent case in point - Macsen Rufus MTW Mod Tools Package. Promote this, ensure that people come here for this.

What everyone needs to consider, in my opinion, is that the next historical TW is right around the corner. In the next 6-9 months the announcement will come.

And this place needs to be ready. :knight:

:bow:

Gregoshi

09-30-2016, 18:01

Thats all you focused on in the two posts i made? Dude ~:(
My post was directed at the Org community as a whole (self included), hence I used "we" rather than "you". Your comment about wanting to talk about TW was a convenient prompting point for what I wanted to say. No offense was intended. I'm sorry that offense was taken. :shame:

edyzmedieval

09-30-2016, 18:09

~:grouphug: ~:grouphug: ~:grouphug:

Fire those ideas!

And provide feedback on those posted above.

Monk

09-30-2016, 18:42

My post was directed at the Org community as a whole (self included), hence I used "we" rather than "you". Your comment about wanting to talk about TW was a convenient prompting point for what I wanted to say. No offense was intended. I'm sorry that offense was taken. :shame:

oh, makes sense. no worries amigo! ~D

Crandar

09-30-2016, 19:59

From my experience, the best way to lure CA reps is to post something very negative about the games, which is though factually wrong, due to a minor, insignificant technicality.
Then, hilarity ensues. (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?639942-Rally-Point-Episode-18-Mod-Horrors-amp-Assembly-Kit-Wave-One&p=13603475&viewfull=1#post13603475)

But it doesn't really matter, everything is in the decline, even their official playground, as the future is reddit. Maybe the future of the future will again be a nice, traditional forum.
I think the best way to succeed is to find out why twcenter became more popular than .org and then try to reverse the past, by faithfully copying it.

Mouzafphaerre

10-01-2016, 00:01

LET'S MAKE ORG GREAT AGAIN!!!
:charge::charge::charge::charge::charge:

Sorry just had to do that! :hide:

Ahem...now...

the future is reddit. Maybe the future of the future will again be a nice, traditional forum.

It may very well be so, and not only on the social mass-media vs. independent websites ground. For instance, despite the apparent trend of mobile devices' ever increasing market share (measured from OS usage (http://www.pcgamer.com/is-microsofts-dominance-set-to-end-soon/), IOS/Android vs. Win/Linux et al) I don't believe that, for hardcore (or even semi-hardcore) gamers, mobile will ever be an alternative (let alone the next platform); nor will the species of hardcore (or semi-hardcore) gamer will ever go extinct.

I support an index revamp, without letting go any of the subfora but rather more compactly organizing the existing ones.

Beyond that, I doubt much can be done. It's merely a wild guess but I think the overall population of the more recent TW titles are predominantly of the younger internet generation born into social mass-media. I suspect quite a few of them even don't know what a forum is :laugh4: Indeed, we as old farts deliberately use forum lingo on Twitter to crush the young vermin with holy agism :knight:

In a different way the above is also valid for the older TW titles' fanbase still playing their games actively or on an on/off manner. Since I can only speak with certainty for myself, let me take me as an example, though how much of an archetype I can make is debatable ~:wacko: I watch whenever EBII release a new build, fire up my MiNO (known to the clueless youth as Medieval 2 TW) and play it to death, reading and posting at both their ORG and TWC subfora, revamping my never completed minor tweak attempts.

I played Shogun 2 for a few hours, enjoyed the novelty of naval combat for a while, then simply deleted it. Glad I hadn't bought it (come and get the evil pirate CA!!). When R2 was on the horizon it was laughing stock for ancient historians/enthusiasts who were also gamers/interested in gaming. Never turned and looked at any other TW title again. OTOH I recently re-bought a MTW/VI on Humblebundle and planning to do the same for Rome/BI sometime.

For my grand strategy needs (other than EB and recently IB on MiNO) I play EUIV, despite the complete lack of battle maps. CA (actually Sega) made a choice, which several other mega-corpos did and catered to the ever passing yet ever replenishing ultra-pop youth. Anyway, I digress. Old timers come back for old times' and fellow old timers' sake. I don't think you can attract many (if not most) of them by promoting the newest shiniest CA toy.

tl/dr; Some spicing up would be nice but I don't think we need worry ourselves too much with an ORG revival. In the end, there's also the risk of getting something revived at the cost of good old ORG.

:bow:

Tuuvi

10-01-2016, 02:10

I think the "internetz" has room for both... And it probably serves different kind of needs (I would imagine). Personally, I have not even bother with or explored Reddit at all... That's just me...

Quite possibly... Still there is room for both, I would think... We can be certain that the near monopoly this site had TW-wise around 2000 will never come back, and therefore it needs adjust and act accordingly. Adapt and overcome essentially. Besides, I love them "long winded, in-depth discussions"... Especially so on my fave games - that's basically what I am in business for! (More or less anyways.) The Whole "TLDR"-routine, is just a poor excuse for not making an real effort, or lacking the talent for it to begin with - this on general terms, of course. I have never really seen the supposed value of that thing. Sorry all you "TLDR"-believers - you are just a bunch of lazy, untalented and worthless bums or some such along those lines... :) A bit more seriously, this is a text-based forum, if "you" can't bother yourself to read and write more then a few words - what the hell are you doing here?!? ...Out of all places? ...You know?

True up to a point... That is if this site fails to adapt and specialize... Obviously it will be essentially futile to even try to compete on "Wal-Marts" own strong points... Another lesson that the staff here needs to recognize and deal with (if not done already).

- A

I agree with your points, personally I dislike reddit's nested comment system and karma scoring and I like the way conversation flows on old fashioned forums like this one much better. I don't think reddit is superior to the Org in every way, I just speculate that when newcomers to Total War are looking for an online community they're going to reddit instead of here, which is a factor in this site's decline.

edyzmedieval

10-01-2016, 07:21

Alright, so we do have a couple of members who support the revamping of the index fora. How do proceed further with this? How do we discuss with the whole community site-wide about this?

Idea - In anticipation of the new Total War, historical TW title, we could do the following - contact CA and ask for a relative time frame that can be shared only with forum elders, in order to keep the secrecy. Based on that relative timeframe, the admins and mods of the Org can work with us to ensure a new "look" and strategy for the Org in anticipation of the new TW release.

Thoughts?

:bow:

ReluctantSamurai

10-01-2016, 14:27

Alright, so we do have a couple of members who support the revamping of the index fora. How do proceed further with this? How do we discuss with the whole community site-wide about this?

As with any worthwhile endeavor, a plan should be laid down. Making changes without a specific purpose in mind rarely leads to success. Having said that, it's obvious that two events need to happen: a) the need to attract, and keep new members; b) the need to get current members not active to want to participate again. I think the latter is just as important as the former because currently less than 1% of our registered membership post here (I'd still be curious as to why that is:book2:)

The Org will never be like it was in the early 2000's when it was the big dog on the block. Times have changed. But it would be refreshing, at the least, to see us have a posting day like 18 Jan 2011 when there were 681 members online and participating somewhere on the Org.

edyzmedieval

10-01-2016, 15:31

Getting back to the 2000's is a big task.

However, given that the excitement of a new historical TW will greatly interest many people, especially those who have played TW for the first time because of Warhammer, we can get to very good levels of membership. :yes:

So - how do we proceed?

Monk

10-01-2016, 17:28

Idea - In anticipation of the new Total War, historical TW title, we could do the following - contact CA and ask for a relative time frame that can be shared only with forum elders, in order to keep the secrecy. Based on that relative timeframe, the admins and mods of the Org can work with us to ensure a new "look" and strategy for the Org in anticipation of the new TW release.

Thoughts?

Getting back to the 2000's is a big task.

However, given that the excitement of a new historical TW will greatly interest many people, especially those who have played TW for the first time because of Warhammer, we can get to very good levels of membership. :yes:

So - how do we proceed?

I think the CA discussion should be shelved for now. Especially while posts like this are okay and stay up: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?152117-Craig&p=2053714727&viewfull=1#post2053714727

i believe our energy would be best focused inward.

Axalon

10-01-2016, 20:43

So - how do we proceed?

Short-term index-wise... First of all...

Decide if we shall use/have a...

• Chronological order of TW-games (first game first - STW1) or...
• Reversed-chronological order (last game first - WaTW or possibly AtTW) of the same (this is the most commonly used).

Either we set up a poll, or a thread or something whatever were folks can declare which order they prefer (it could be here too, if folks like). We could set a dead-line for a week (or something), and the order that got the most support wins = gets applied. After that is decided (in whatever fashion)... Start applying the basic model (below) to every game and sort out the details on specific sub-fora later and continuously restructure such things later if the need arises, or clearly warranted and/or advantageous etc. etc. For now sort them in the place that they arguably belongs the most...

All off-topic stuff could for instance temporarily be sorted in 1 section during the transition (or permanently), placed wherever (yeah, I don't really care). That can be sorted out later - its clearly secondary to the actual purpose of this site, after all. And, it should not be allowed to serve as yet another excuse to delay this process any further... We have waited for too long on this as it is. Org-central/administration section can be placed first on the index (which makes solid sense). Then we go...

TW-game1 - section (individual)
-General Area & Discussion (sub-section)
-- Multiplayer (sub-fora)
--Whatever sub-fora it needs/has, max 6 (If any)
-Modding Area & Discussion
--Whatever sub-fora it needs/has, max 6 (If any)
-Hosted Mod (if any. Sub-section omitted otherwise)
--Whatever sub-fora it needs/has, max 6 (If any)
-Tech Help Area (sub-section)
--whatever sub-fora it needs, max 6 (If any)

TW-game2 - section (individual)
-General Area & Discussion (sub-section)
-- Multiplayer (sub-fora)
--Whatever sub-fora it needs/has, max 6 (If any)
-Modding Area & Discussion
--Whatever sub-fora it needs/has, max 6 (If any)
-Hosted Mod (if any. Sub-section omitted otherwise)
--Whatever sub-fora it needs/has, max 6 (If any)
-Tech Help Area
--whatever sub-fora it needs, max 6 (If any)

Etc. etc. until we run out of TW-games... (and yeah, Arena is out by default.)

Then, whatever else... Off-topic stuff or something.

Then, end of index. Essentially done...

***

Then, all the fine-tuning begins.... Now you guys can bicker about the details
of sub-fora left and right etc. Names on stuff etc. If so desired.... Besides it
will be much easier to spot such things at this stage and to discuss it....

Some general definitions that can come in handy here:
********************************************
Hosted mod = Generally active (somehow) and/or actively supported, and recognized as such. All other mods not recognized as such should be sorted differently. As in...

Functional mod = A functional and playable mod - it can be played to reasonable extents by a third party, it works - yet formally abandoned and/or unsupported. Sorted as such in a specific sub-fora as per relevant game. Or...

Incomplete mod = A non-functional and unfinished mod - it can not be played to reasonable extents by a third party, it do not work/start - formally abandoned. Sorted as such in a specific sub-fora as per relevant game.

This is to cut down the horde of abandoned (possibly functional or non-functional) stuff for especially RTW1 and MTW2 on the index, and also some stuff for other games too MTW1 and ETW etc. Sorted as per the definitions above. Relocate it all into a suitable sub-fora under the "Modding Area & Discussion"-subsection as per TW-game. Such places could be called "Playable mods archive/library" or something. "Mods cemetary/junkyard - incomplete ad non-functional mods" or some such...

That's all I can think of on this note, for the moment...

- A

Axalon

10-01-2016, 21:10

That being said, let's look at our options...

I'll get to commenting this stuff eventually... I hope... In general, it wouldn't hurt if folks here could help Edyz with
additional ideas or something, or at least commenting on that and other stuff already brought to "the table" here.

Remember folks, with zero input/effort follows as much output/results - yup, zero... Every time....

- A

AntiDamascus

10-01-2016, 23:43

Axalon

10-02-2016, 11:28

I may be the minority but but holy crap would a ton of forums and sub-forums for each game would annoy me to no end. I have almost all the TW games but I don't see what that would accomplish other that spread out low activity even more. To tell the truth I would come here more for the sense of community and second for the TW info. I can get a lot of that info almost anywhere in the low case I want up to date info on Rome 1 (not likely). The reason I keep fading out is because the places that were busy for me (The Backroom) were/are borderline toxic.

Oh for **** sake, another... In short... We have tried your damned way already, and it did not work.
It has ended up in a ******* disaster for the site. There are less people active here then ever. It has
ended up that way BECAUSE the likes of you have had it your way.

Additional text, for the interested:

There is difference between us... The things I strive for, ALLOWS you ALL your backroom and off-topic blabla while still ALSO provides me with the things I am interested in full. Everyone essentially gets what they actually want, it enables and affords that for all, as we then CAN tailor that index just as we like - you can implode all TW-sections to the stone-age if you like, its your headache... Now, the thing you strive for essentially robs me of the stuff that I am actually interested in, by dismantling it down to dysfunctional and ridiculous levels (as is also reflected in the current traffic-levels), while it ONLY provides you with what you are interested in full. See the difference? Its a huge one, and it annoys the hell out of me, that I have to explain this to the likes of you.

I will ALWAYS be against what you advocate as it simply does not afford me, or my interests, in its results - and it kills the site in general as well, as if the first circumstance was not sufficiently bad enough on its own. It don't get any better by the fact that the place is actually called "totalwar.org" and not "privatesocialclub.org". And, if it had been the latter, then you may have had a case - but as it is, you don't - as its still called "totalwar.org", and providing sections for all TW-games on such a site is natural. The fact that site-management dismantled them all in the first place - much for the likes of you - now that certainly is unnatural for a site like this one... And obviously, this site has paid accordingly for that.

- A

AntiDamascus

10-02-2016, 15:01

It's not a matter of removing the names or the games or whatever you assumed I have suggested (which was nothing by the way). I'm just stating that, in my opinion, setting up nice structures for the games and modding and whatnot will not bring in new people and will likely just showcase how dead it is. The whole point is lack of activity isn't it? I guess I just don't know why that plan does anything but make you happy. Not that I'm against making you happy but this really just seems like "You'll be happy with whatever, I'll be happy with my plan, so do my plan"

I mean I am trying to give my honest opinion here because I would assume I am the person you are trying to attract to the site. People interested in TW games? Or are you only looking for people who come to talk about TW and only TW in neatly defined boxes? I guess it's just funny that I'm reading this almost as if I'm not a TW fan and just some guy looking to chat on a random forum. I have all these games, I LIKE these games (most of them) but I don't think Rome 1 modding discussion forum is going to haul all the kids in to play.

I don't claim to have the perfect idea to fix this but if you think a forum specific revival in 2016 will bring in the views, I am going to have to disagree.

ReluctantSamurai

10-02-2016, 16:15

I'm just stating that, in my opinion, setting up nice structures for the games and modding and whatnot will not bring in new people and will likely just showcase how dead it is.

You have to see it from a first-time (or long-time, for that matter) viewer/lurker. As Ax states, we are TotalWar.Org, and as such, the primary focus should be on the games. Off-topic discussions like the Frontroom/Backroom should be a welcome diversion for those who want it. Unfortunately those roles are reversed, and the games have become just a side note, while the discussion forums are the main hangout. Might as well change the name to Louie's Bar & Grill:shrug:

The facts speak for themselves...when discussion focused on the games was thriving, so did the Org. As the focus on the games has faded....so has the Org.

AntiDamascus

10-02-2016, 16:32

You have to see it from a first-time (or long-time, for that matter) viewer/lurker. As Ax states, we are TotalWar.Org, and as such, the primary focus should be on the games. Off-topic discussions like the Frontroom/Backroom should be a welcome diversion for those who want it. Unfortunately those roles are reversed, and the games have become just a side note, while the discussion forums are the main hangout. Might as well change the name to Louie's Bar & Grill:shrug:

The facts speak for themselves...when discussion focused on the games was thriving, so did the Org. As the focus on the games has faded....so has the Org.

Oh I'm not disagreeing they should be first, or the primary or whatever. But look at all those forums listed. Does each game need its own section, with like 4 subsections and each subsection gets its own subsections "if needed"? Why? There are 10 games, so that's 10 sections, each with 4 subforums and then those with subforums? This could run 50+, how does that help?

And I disagree that simply a shift in focus ruined the Org. Because you simply can't change the format and watch people come storming back. It's more complicated than that. I've been goofing off on forum for almost 20 years and I can tell you most of them are dying. There are enough game specific forums that have died a slow death because of several reasons. The games are old, people use things like reddit instead (that's a question, has anyone posted links here on the tw reddit?) and the fanbase who was loyal to it either stopped playing, moved elsewhere or simply has no desire to visit a forum on it.

I still have not seen a good reason for why this would bring anyone around. It seems mostly to be "Org was better then, if we go back, people will come back". There are actual ideas to be done to bring in activity but rearranging deck chairs won't stop the sinking.

Axalon

10-02-2016, 17:39

I'll keep this short....

I'm just stating that, in my opinion, setting up nice structures for the games and modding and whatnot will not bring in new people and will likely just showcase how dead it is.

How do you know this? ...Have you tried? ...Ever visited a place called the TWC? ...Ever wondered why that site simply kills this one? ...Ever wondered why most people prefer that site to this one? The "nice structures" and "neatly defined boxes" are part of the reasons why - that's a fact. Which essentially leaves us with the option to either do roughly the same, and try to keep up (compete), or get left behind (die). And right now bubba, we are being left behind... This utterly regardless of your opinions, utterly regardless if you agree with it or not... Understand?

- A

Axalon

10-02-2016, 17:48

AntiDamascus

10-02-2016, 20:17

I'll keep this short....

How do you know this? ...Have you tried? ...Ever visited a place called the TWC? ...Ever wondered why that site simply kills this one? ...Ever wondered why most people prefer that site to this one? The "nice structures" and "neatly defined boxes" are part of the reasons why - that's a fact. Which essentially leaves us with the option to either do roughly the same, and try to keep up (compete), or get left behind (die). And right now bubba, we are being left behind... This utterly regardless of your opinions, utterly regardless if you agree with it or not... Understand?

- A

Oh I love TWC! But not because of the neatly defined boxes. If you think that somehow all that's missing is to copy their format, I'm just gonna chuckle. I mean I can sit here and say look at the reddit, it's popular, copy that format. This is like trying to copy the popular kids by wearing their clothes and then being shocked when it doesn't work out like you think.

Why would someone who goes to TWC, or reddit or whatever come here instead? Because "Forum Configuration!" is not the big selling point.

Here is a perfect post from 2 years ago on reddit. See if you can spot anyone you recognize

https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/2i0w0o/is_the_org_totalwarorg_still_active/

Crandar

10-02-2016, 21:26

I'll keep this short....

How do you know this? ...Have you tried? ...Ever visited a place called the TWC? ...Ever wondered why that site simply kills this one? ...Ever wondered why most people prefer that site to this one? The "nice structures" and "neatly defined boxes" are part of the reasons why - that's a fact. Which essentially leaves us with the option to either do roughly the same, and try to keep up (compete), or get left behind (die). And right now bubba, we are being left behind... This utterly regardless of your opinions, utterly regardless if you agree with it or not... Understand?

- A
Old bean, the only reason why now most people prefer TWC is because it already has more people. Funnily, the biggest difference is in the Off-Topic forums. The root of the problem is why TWC surpassed .org back in 2009. Honestly I have no idea, I didn't have Internet back then and I was only starting to play the TW games.
When someone finally explains that, we can discuss how we can simulate the same thing with the opposite results.

Additionally better movements than forum restructures would be the hosting of tournaments, hotseat, multi-playing, various contests and their advertizement everywhere possible: TWC, official forums, steam, reddit.

Oh, and a wiki too. Copy-pasting the one of TWC, something that has been done, if the gossip in Shambala was true, would be a good start. Not enough, blame google for that, but if we expand it, stuff may become better.

Edit II Facebook, twitter and definitely youtube too. The last is the best, but finding a decent youtuber that has no problem working for a site and not for himself is kinda impossible.

edyzmedieval

10-02-2016, 22:15

Creating "Org content" is one of the main suggestions from my side - we need to have this big time.

Montmorency

10-03-2016, 00:49

Not that I'm against making you happy but this really just seems like "You'll be happy with whatever, I'll be happy with my plan, so do my plan"

This this this. To claim anything else is rank delusion.

If you want to see activity in this forum - invite people to it.

ReluctantSamurai

10-03-2016, 01:28

Why would someone who goes to TWC, or reddit or whatever come here instead? Because "Forum Configuration!" is not the big selling point.

That's true only if you aren't a regular player:creep:

Oh I love TWC! But not because of the neatly defined boxes.

Then what draws you to TWC?

If you want to see activity in this forum - invite people to it.

It's rather impossible to invite folks to come here. What needs to be done to see more activity is make the site inviting :idea2:

the only reason why now most people prefer TWC is because it already has more people.

Ummmm...~:confused:

Montmorency

10-03-2016, 01:32

What needs to be done to see more activity is make the site inviting

That bears no relevance to how virtual spaces function. You can't see the inviting new Org while riding along the highway.

AntiDamascus

10-03-2016, 02:38

That's true only if you aren't a regular player:creep:

Again with the "You don't play TW 24/7 and therefore don't 'get it' ". That's not a good outlook to draw in more people.

Then what draws you to TWC?

I'm gonna go with: activity, the wiki, activity and probably activity. It updates on a regular basis and has people there to talk to. It looks alive and growing as opposed to here which is full of the same people arguing with each other over the same issues.

It's rather impossible to invite folks to come here. What needs to be done to see more activity is make the site inviting :idea2:

It is actually not impossible to invite people here. Sites generate traffic all the time from offsite things. Usually someone linking something of interest and people check it out to see if they like it. That's probably how you found a bunch of the sites and things you visit or do now.

Ummmm...~:confused:

People go to the place with more people. If you had to choose between here and there, most choose there because it is active. There needs to be something else to draw people here. It needs content. No one is leaving content for no content, I don't care how much you assure me that pretty forum lineups will bring them in.

It reminds me of the joke of all the old lodge members spending every meeting talking about how to get more members instead of, you know, doing something fun that might draw in members.

ReluctantSamurai

10-03-2016, 07:32

That bears no relevance to how virtual spaces function. You can't see the inviting new Org while riding along the highway.

Okaaay cap'n~;)

I'm gonna go with: activity, the wiki, activity and probably activity. It updates on a regular basis and has people there to talk to. It looks alive and growing as opposed to here which is full of the same people arguing with each other over the same issues.

I'm guessing "activity" means "Frontroom/Backroom" kind of talk:shrug: I don't have an account there, but I occasionally lurk, and there's plenty of activity focused on the games. The arguing over the same issues is precisely the problem here. Instead of dropping in to find the latest patch/fix for your favorite mod, or talking tactics from your latest campaign, etc, and then popping in to the 'tavern' to shoot the breeze on the latest political/religious bruhaha, the latter is usually why most people come here anymore. Like I said, let's rename the place to suit the environment, cuz' it sure ain't about TW anymore:inquisitive:

There needs to be something else to draw people here. It needs content.

And what sort of content are you suggesting?

Montmorency

10-03-2016, 08:17

usually why most people come here anymore.

You're missing the Gameroom, but more importantly you miss all the people who want to find TW information but have no interest in staying and discussing TW. If someone has a specific question about a specific mechanic and kthxbye, no contests or layout changes or anything of that sort will attract their residence. What you are depending on is a fundamental philosphical persuasion that TW is something people should come to talk about, and that isn't something that can be accomplished from within a forum.

Instead of dropping in to find the latest patch/fix for your favorite mod, or talking tactics from your latest campaign, etc,

People who have a specific interest in discussing legacy topics with those who share that interest should create or join dedicated legacy communities.

it sure ain't about TW anymore

It's not obliged to be, just as humans are not obliged to live forever or institutions to perdure eternally.

AntiDamascus

10-03-2016, 13:36

Okaaay cap'n~;)

If we change the site format, how would people find out about it?

I'm guessing "activity" means "Frontroom/Backroom" kind of talk:shrug: I don't have an account there, but I occasionally lurk, and there's plenty of activity focused on the games. The arguing over the same issues is precisely the problem here. Instead of dropping in to find the latest patch/fix for your favorite mod, or talking tactics from your latest campaign, etc, and then popping in to the 'tavern' to shoot the breeze on the latest political/religious bruhaha, the latter is usually why most people come here anymore. Like I said, let's rename the place to suit the environment, cuz' it sure ain't about TW anymore:inquisitive:

And oddly enough, you would be wrong. It's another "you only care about the offtopic stuff". I still find it funny this assumption that somehow I'm not interested in TW. You never even considered I meant TW activity. They post new stuff constantly. Several times a week. Almost every forum has a post that day or only a few behind. It's active. About TW. Amazing.

And what sort of content are you suggesting?

Well isn't that the question? What's the point of doing a forum change if we don't know what will go in it? A forum shake up is fine, I guess. But what's going to go in it? I have ideas and things I would add but if there's no new content then why bother?

ReluctantSamurai

10-03-2016, 14:58

You're missing the Gameroom, but more importantly you miss all the people who want to find TW information but have no interest in staying and discussing TW.

You are ignoring the facts, my friend. Back in post #25, numbers were given for posts made since the beginning of 2016. Backroom #1 w/almost 149,000 posts, Gameroom #2 w/just over 90,000 posts. Together they outnumber ever other sub-forum combined...by a wide margin. And neither have anything remotely to do with a TW game:inquisitive: Can you consider it a coincidence that the Org's short-term decline (ie. the last 5-6 years) parallels the rising popularity of those two forums?

It's not obliged to be, just as humans are not obliged to live forever or institutions to perdure eternally.

Great! Then what do you want to rename this place to? Something more appropriate to its' current status~:smoking:

It's another "you only care about the offtopic stuff"

Maybe not you personally, but the cumulative post count at the Org since the start of this year sez otherwise:shame:

Well isn't that the question? What's the point of doing a forum change if we don't know what will go in it?

Isn't that what we are discussing here~:confused:

Beskar

10-03-2016, 15:07

Can you consider it a coincidence that the Org's short-term decline (ie. the last 5-6 years) parallels the rising popularity of those two forums?

https://i.imgur.com/AwoARt8.png

Joking aside, "rising popularity" is on a ratio basis, it isn't a case that people are joining to post in the off-discussion sections more, it is more that the loss is less severe in these locations than in the total war areas. Reasons are this are mostly older members who were dissatisfied with the newer titles, bored with the older ones, but still attend due to companionship through the bonds they formed with people over the years.

There are multiple theories to explain this loss, one is going along the lines of forums as a format, in general, along with the rise of social media, reddit, centralization of information. When I first joined the Org, TWC had already overtaken the Org in popularity, infact, that was the reason I became an Orgah was the smaller and more intimate community.

I have been told there were significant behind the scenes factors as to why this occurred, and why this increased. One big difference was TWC is a far more commercial enterprise, I remember reading at one point it required $500 per month to run, there are some very impressive amounts of money and investment has been put into that place. The Org has always ran as an enterprise done in someones backyard shed as a hobby in comparison, we were lucky to have a host who would let us have our internet space for free, and back in 1998, this was very expensive, even when I joined in 2008, internet hosting was not cheap. Now-a-days, we are able to self-fund the Org from donations people have previously given us and we had to rely on after our former host closed down their shop. It is comparing the success of the family ran hobby-shop to Walmart, the Org was not going to compete in the same environment. This is not to belittle TWC and their efforts, because seriously, they put a lot of work in that place and there is a reason it is popular as it is, and ignoring that would be a folly.

If you really want the "meat on the bone" to why the Org doesn't fare like TWC, it is because of Network Value. People chose a place like TWC for their number 1 resource because it is pretty much the number 1 resource for that information. Latest screenshots? Big scoop in a magazine? Someone has posted it. Someone is engaging in it. You might go "Why don't we have that?" and the simple answer is, is that the community is not providing it. We have a smaller community, so when we hear the big scoop, there are less members to hear about it, and post about it, opposed to other places. People say about Mods, and for many reasons before my time, TWC was able to offer better Mod hosting and support, so modders went over there. If you want your work seen by more people, and receive better support, where would you shop? Would be at the place that offers the best.

We are currently looking at options to see how we can better support things like forum structure, outside of changing what order the games are in, and if they are achievable, we can present and offer these. But I feel that we need to be honest with ourselves as to why things are as they are, and structural change will not do anything but quality of life for current membership.

Gregoshi

10-03-2016, 15:07

I have ideas and things I would add but if there's no new content then why bother?
IMHO, that is the chicken-or-the-egg dilemma we find ourselves in now. Nobody wants to do/post anything because there is no activity here but there is no activity because nobody wants do/post anything.

Content just doesn't happen. Somebody has to do it...and the community has to engage and respond.

ReluctantSamurai

10-03-2016, 15:20

Beskar

As my favorite Vulcan would say...Fascinating!:logic:

Beskar

10-03-2016, 15:29

Beskar

As my favorite Vulcan would say...Fascinating!:logic:

:bow: I did however update the post, if you would like to read.

AntiDamascus

10-03-2016, 15:31

That's why I felt the forum shakeup was.... nice but not the main point of this.

Axalon

10-03-2016, 18:14

Axalon

10-03-2016, 18:30

Old bean, the only reason why now most people prefer TWC is because it already has more people. ... ... ...

Its true that many people go to the TWC for the sheeple/horde-factor, it is an important reason - I’ll totally give you that much - but its hardly the only reason thou, that bit is untrue. There are plenty of reasons, obviously the index and TW-infrastructure is one of the many such reasons - especially so mod-wise. While less clearly visible in general (there), their TWC-locations does make lots more sense, and obviously the sectioning and overall infrastructure is clearly better too. All that matters for mods, and Im talking a modder here. Its especially true as of 2012 and beyond, but probably true earlier then that as well. Ever since Barocca left the Org (2008?), this site never really had a solid clue on how to handle it, well... Despite best intentions. I imagine. A lot of lessons can be learned from the TWC on that note.

Edyz is currently focusing on what happens AFTER we set up an index and infrastructure that works and invites actual use. You seem to be so inclined as well - in general I am all for that stuff - that is once I am convinced enough that this place is indeed worthwhile investing in again (time, energy and effort). The first step to make that happen is a serious and working index, and that is why I am focusing on it. Looking at it from a modders perspective - I expect a normal and functional index - but I am looking for an advantageous one beyond that, if this place can’t deliver any of that, I won’t probably bother to invest further energy and effort into this site - that’s the ultra short version of it. I seriously doubt that I am the only one on the planet who thinks that way - at least among modders anyways. Probably others as well...

This place will need them modders if it is to survive, there are no two ways about it. There is no one that can create content like a good (active) modder, if there is then that would be news to me. Either this place offers "me" (us modders) a sexy enough settings to work in or it gets left behind. And as it is, its being left behind. Obviously, that is not a good or desirable circumstance...

- A

Axalon

10-03-2016, 18:40

... ... ...

We are currently looking at options to see how we can better support things like forum structure, outside of changing what order the games are in, and if they are achievable, we can present and offer these. But I feel that we need to be honest with ourselves as to why things are as they are, and structural change will not do anything but quality of life for current membership.

I have little contestation to offer this (entire) post around. Nice...

The one exception, the last (colored by me, for clarity) part as I am utterly convinced that sexy enough infrastructure and index can indeed inspire and invite activity. I say that with my finest modder-hat on. I would even say so without it... All the same the index is only the beginning of a long journey, of course. Actual content is obviously a vital continuation of such a journey, beyond the index - I fully agree on that...

- A

AntiDamascus

10-03-2016, 19:08

In regards to post: 91...

I give up... I can see (now) that to continue this activity would be utterly pointless. Thus I will not bother you - AntiDamascus - again regarding any of your claims, conclusions, statements and declarations on this note, or otherwise in this thread, or much else beyond this thread and topic for that matter. Please, bother not to write a reply to this post for my sake, I don’t need any....

- A

That's nice I suppose. But I'll respond to whatever posts for my sake and the sake of others in a conversation. It's not a personal thing but I'm not going to like... ignore your posts cause you're done with me. Just ignore mine if it's that big an issue. On we go.

The one exception, the last (colored by me, for clarity) part as I am utterly convinced that sexy enough infrastructure and index can indeed inspire and invite activity. I say that with my finest modder-hat on. I would even say so without it... All the same the index is only the beginning of a long journey, of course. Actual content is obviously a vital continuation of such a journey, beyond the index - I fully agree on that...

And this is the crux of the entire argument. "If we build it, they will come" and you'll recall from that movie (if you ever watched it, that is) that the entire premise was kinda silly and goofy. That's why no one believed and it was so magical when it happened.

"I want this format, I'm the modder, I'm the important one, do what I want."

Its true that many people go to the TWC for the sheeple/horde-factor, it is an important reason - I’ll totally give you that much - but its hardly the only reason thou, that bit is untrue. There are plenty of reasons, obviously the index and TW-infrastructure is one of the many such reasons - especially so mod-wise. While less clearly visible in general (there), their TWC-locations does make lots more sense, and obviously the sectioning and overall infrastructure is clearly better too. All that matters for mods, and Im talking a modder here.

Calling people sheeple and horde is kind of a big issue here for this. It's this "I know what's best" idea running here.

There is no one that can create content like a good (active) modder, if there is then that would be news to me.

Apparently people who do lets plays, artwork, wiki or other works don't count eh? I'm starting to wonder if someone has a modding only focus.

It all ties into the big issue. There is an active TWC forum with mods, wikis, updates and most importantly, members already up and running. There seems to be an idea from people that simple changing the format will be the first step to... what? killing TWC and taking over as top dog? Being a fellow site that has an equal-ish size? What? I'll stand back on my previous statement. A forum shakeup is a small part of what needs to be done and I enjoy adding content and will add content if need be but this is really a personal preference of some that will likely have no real impact on activity. THAT will come from other factors.

edyzmedieval

10-03-2016, 20:05

Beskar, I agree for the most part with your post with regards to the forum structure and with the differences between the Org and TWC and the rest of the world.

What I keep suggesting for the past posts (mine at least) is that we enhance the content creation based on our community - we need content to bring here people. Content is king, and we need to have this in order to bring more people in.

And Orgahs are content creators.

:bow:

ReluctantSamurai

10-04-2016, 01:35

And this is the crux of the entire argument. "If we build it, they will come" and you'll recall from that movie (if you ever watched it, that is) that the entire premise was kinda silly and goofy. That's why no one believed and it was so magical when it happened.

Rather a strawman argument, don't you think?

I'm starting to wonder if someone has a modding only focus.

Seeing as how the modding traffic here is second only to the bar-and-grill, I'd say making modders happy to come here is important.

There seems to be an idea from people that simple changing the format will be the first step to... what? killing TWC and taking over as top dog? Being a fellow site that has an equal-ish size?

I don't believe anyone (including Axalon) is saying a simple change in format will magically transform the Org into a giant-killer (or more to the point---a TWC killer). But one thing you got right, IMHO, changing the format IS the first step...one of many that will be needed.

Montmorency

10-04-2016, 01:46

we need content to bring here people.

Make content because you want to make it, not because you think it will attract people. There are no taskmasters or bursars here.

Rather a strawman argument, don't you think?

Not from what has been said here so far. Do you have a 5-year plan and investment for the Org prepared that would validate this entire specious discussion?

edyzmedieval

10-04-2016, 08:00

Make content because you want to make it, not because you think it will attract people. There are no taskmasters or bursars here.

Nobody said that.

Orgahs produce content on their own because they wish to make it - the idea would be to kindly ask them whether they would like to be featured on the Org, making it a win win for both sides.

Montmorency

10-04-2016, 09:33

the idea would be to kindly ask them whether they would like to be featured on the Org, making it a win win for both sides.

You might consider an official promotion of pan-TW content, projects, or contests in the Arena subforum. It's a gaming subforum, gets a good deal of board traffic if not posts, and it consolidates anything that involves work or sharing that wouldn't fit in a particular TW game's section. If, I don't know, you want to organize a TW machinima collaboration (as example), the Arena would be a good staging point.

edyzmedieval

10-04-2016, 10:18

Why solely restricted to the Arena? This is mostly TW content, content that would bring people over because it has been made by Orgahs.

Montmorency

10-04-2016, 10:42

Gregoshi

10-04-2016, 14:39

If you want to write an MTW AAR, by all means put it in the MTW AAR subforum. More broadly-construed "pan-Total War content" might go better in the Arena, and indeed content of that nature might be desirable - even something as simple as Total-War inspired art.
Such things can be moved or cross-linked from other related forums as needed/desired. We can also promote these things to "articles" on the Org front page.

edyzmedieval

10-05-2016, 15:37

Right - but my question is not exactly related.

My proposal would be this - Fellow Orgahs who produce content, would you like to be featured on the front page of the Org, and on the sidebars?

:book:

Axalon

10-05-2016, 15:43

Alright, so it seems we have apparently babbled enough... Excellent!

Now, can staff/admin now please finally show me your colors so I can get a sporting chance to seriously assess whether or not I will be interested in investing again into this site, and this general Org-reboot. You can't stall it forever, and so far you have done an absolutely magnificent job at it, but it is closing in on a month now, and I need to know if this venture will include, or exclude, me as an active party in it. This of course are ultimatly dictated by what you guys are actually willing to do here. I need to have some clarity here if this is a meaningful investment or not - for me, by my standards. This before I commit or offer any further input and energy to this reboot.

So... Pretty please with extra pink sugar on top, kindly show me what you guys in staff have in mind, and/or what you are prepared to do (index-wise), no BS, just honestly show me (either by PM, or here in public, makes zero difference to me). A representative draft, or a few various drafts, of the site-index as envisioned by you guys - that will do just fine. Just show me were you truly stand at this point. I already know that tons of tasks and challenges awaits beyond that, but I want to see the supposed or the roughly intended foundation that all things are to build upon - the index - the first step...

We have waited long enough as it is.

- A

edyzmedieval

10-05-2016, 17:58

The index should not just be the sole focus, we need other areas that we can improve on. ~:)

That being said, how does everyone view this push for Org promotion?

Axalon

10-05-2016, 19:18

The index should not just be the sole focus, we need other areas that we can improve on. ~:)

Again... I know that... I have still not suggested that it should be... I have only said that the index is the natural and most obvious place to start, and that we should start there because of the fact.

As it is, almost a month have past... I need to know what I am dealing with here before I decide if it is worthwhile investing in this reboot, or not - for me, by my standards. As much as I hope all this goes well, I will not commit to this blindly, sorry but I won't. And if that is the terms for it - then I'm out. Then you will have to do this without me. As I do want to know I will actually get for my time, ideas and energy. The best early possible indication of that IS the index. And so, I repeat the last part of my previous post...

Pretty please with extra pink sugar on top, kindly show me what you guys in staff have in mind, and/or what you are prepared to do (index-wise), no BS, just honestly show me (either by PM, or here in public, makes zero difference to me). A representative draft, or a few various drafts, of the site-index as envisioned by you guys - that will do just fine. Just show me were you truly stand at this point. I already know that tons of tasks and challenges awaits beyond that, but I want to see the supposed or the roughly intended foundation that all things are to build upon - the index - the first step...

We have waited long enough as it is.

- A

edyzmedieval

10-06-2016, 18:11

Org admins/mods, any thoughts on this? Any proposals from you guys? ~:)

Vincent Butler

10-06-2016, 21:04

Here's some ideas:

- invite local YouTubers, ones who activate on the Org, to submit their content so we can promote it over here (as I've said, the videos on the sidebar need refreshing - they haven't been changed in like 2-3 years)

I would certainly be willing to post a battle on Youtube from time to time (when I get the time to play, which is rare right now), is there a way to record my campaign battles or is it only custom battles that can be recorded? I am playing RTW, both vanilla and RTR.

Monk

10-06-2016, 22:00

I would certainly be willing to post a battle on Youtube from time to time (when I get the time to play, which is rare right now), is there a way to record my campaign battles or is it only custom battles that can be recorded? I am playing RTW, both vanilla and RTR.

i use https://obsproject.com/ to capture. its a streaming program but it also has a record feature that works incredibly well. the program is open source with lots of support forums that has info enough to tweak the recording settings for your quality standards.

Fraps is also the time honored "if all else fails" and has been around even longer than OBS. http://www.fraps.com/

Gregoshi

10-07-2016, 04:38

Org admins/mods, any thoughts on this? Any proposals from you guys? ~:)

We (the staff) have chased our tails around and around with these same issues a few times since Tosa's passing, trying some new things but without much success based on continued diminishing activity levels. This time around, it is interesting to hear from the Org patrons' perspectives what the issues we face are and what ideas you have to liven up the Org. BTW, thanks, edyz, for initiating the discussion. :bow:

For my part, I'd be willing to resurrect the "Re-release Party" event I tried with M2TW a couple of years ago. It was well received and a fair number participated, but it didn't generate as much discussion in the M2TW forum as I had hoped. Maybe second time is a charm with another game?

Vincent Butler

10-07-2016, 05:59

i use https://obsproject.com/ to capture. its a streaming program but it also has a record feature that works incredibly well. the program is open source with lots of support forums that has info enough to tweak the recording settings for your quality standards.

Fraps is also the time honored "if all else fails" and has been around even longer than OBS. http://www.fraps.com/

I was hoping it would not involve outside software.:no: I wonder if I have some similar program hidden on my newer laptop, I am constantly finding apps on it that I did not know about, simply because of my ignorance of what different stuff is.

I have been on the Backroom before participating in one or two discussions. What a complete waste of my time.:shame: I agree with RS, it is not a good sign for us if that is the main area that is visited.
RTR has its own forum now, so anybody looking for stuff on that will only find old stuff here. I don't know why they don't use the Org anymore, but it would be interesting to find that out. That is one example of modders going elsewhere. I don't mod, so I have no advice there. The bottom line is, it is hard to convince people to leave a perfectly good brand and go to a less known one that its developers don't know why it is becoming less popular. I know that is what everybody has been saying. 'Twould be nice to ask the people on TWC if they have heard of the Org, and if they were on it once, why they left.

edyzmedieval

10-08-2016, 23:23

I would certainly be willing to post a battle on Youtube from time to time (when I get the time to play, which is rare right now), is there a way to record my campaign battles or is it only custom battles that can be recorded? I am playing RTW, both vanilla and RTR.

That would work quite well, indeed. :yes:

Locally - Orgah produced - content would be the best for this website. Be it videos, AAR, content.

BTW, thanks, edyz, for initiating the discussion. :bow:

The Org is a special place for me, I'm doing my bit to keep it going. :bow:

As for your proposal - perhaps we can do a sort of an Org party for Shogun 2? It's more in theme with the Org as a whole, we were big fans of the original STW over here.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

10-11-2016, 16:34

I'm not sure if this has been pointed out yet, I may have missed it, but the forum structure is basically upside down, a relic of a time when this was the "Technical" TW forum.

So - basically, the social forums, Frontroom, Backroom etc. should be at the top under the Entrance Hall and Watchtower. Everything relating to specific Total War games should be below that, then forums for mods, then archives. Currently you have to scroll all the way down to the Backroom, past the completely dead Warhammer forums, past the huge glut of archives, to get to the social forums where the activity is.

Right now the site looks dead.

Aside from that, I'd break the game forums up by era, so all the Classical games together, all the Medieval games, the Shogun games, then the Early Modern ones. Warhammer can go at the bottom as it has generated the least interest.

In terms of content - something like Frog's unit guides would be a good shout. I'd be willing to do the Roman Factions for Attila for a start, go through all the units, give stats, some opinions on use, add a historical not here and there...

Montmorency

10-11-2016, 17:22

edyzmedieval

10-11-2016, 19:43

The Classical and Modern TW game section idea is actually not bad - it differentiates easier and it's actually a good idea to break it up in this way. I'm quite supportive of this.

Can we see it happen, if we have at least a modicum of consensus around here?

ReluctantSamurai

10-11-2016, 23:27

So - basically, the social forums, Frontroom, Backroom etc. should be at the top under the Entrance Hall and Watchtower. Everything relating to specific Total War games should be below that, then forums for mods, then archives.

I'd have to respectfully disagree with the index order. In fact, I would rather see it the exact opposite except the Entrance Hall & Watchtower, which should lead. Then the games (chronological or reverse chrono) followed by the social forums, and ending with the Archives. The whole proposed shift here is to emphasize the games/mods, not the bar and grill (which is basically all we are anymore:shrug:).

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

10-12-2016, 01:03

Interesting to hear that. Are you still on the EB2 team? That whole project is heartbreaking for its persistence in the face of overwhelming wrongness. The engine was always grossly incompatible with EB aims, but EB was fun as long as you ignored what it could be. The Sisyphean work produced by the EB2 team collapses the illusion and causes suffering, if only because of the sense of potential lost in seeing team members push on with it rather than going elsewhere.

Now, if there were a Kickstarter for 2008 hopes and dreams, I would drop a $100 right away, but the spirit is gone for it.

I did very little work for EBII, my first breakdown came towards the end of EBI, my second came early in the development of EBII, I never really contributed much. I'm better now but I no longer have the free time.

I agree though - EBII should just switch to the Attila engine.

I'd have to respectfully disagree with the index order. In fact, I would rather see it the exact opposite except the Entrance Hall & Watchtower, which should lead. Then the games (chronological or reverse chrono) followed by the social forums, and ending with the Archives. The whole proposed shift here is to emphasize the games/mods, not the bar and grill (which is basically all we are anymore:shrug:).

Here's the thing - we are a community of Total War players, not a Church to Total War. The Community has to come first. If you can convince people this is a community which they want to be a part of, which is safe then the site has a good foundation. You're already attracting Total War players because this is totalwar.org. The problem is they aren't staying, so you need to work out why that is. They're certainly posting in the Entrance Hall, then nothing is heard from them again. Take a look at the Index, it tells you how many people are viewing each forum. EB has the highest number, then it's pretty equal between Rome I and Medieval II, then the Backroom, then Medieval I, then it takes a sharp dive for the other forums from the 20's to less than 10 on average.

The forum at the top of the game list is Warhammer and there's usually no one in there.

So here's the Scheme I propose:

Org General
-Entrance Hall
-Watchtower

Discussion
-Frontroom
-Backroom
-Monastery
-Meadhall
-Technology
-Arena

Classical Total war
-Rome I
-Rome II
-Attila (Separate game deserve their own forum)

Medieval Total War
-Medieval I
-Medieval II

Shogun
-Shogun I
-Shogun II

Early Modern
-Empire
-Napoleon

Warhammer
-Warhammer I

Forum Gaming
-Throne Room
-ARR Forum
-Gameroom

Crucially, hosted mods (Archived or otherwise) would be hosted under "Mods" and then "Archive" if they were inactive. An Exception might be made for Europea Barbarorum given it's laudable achivements and high activity but it should be noted that during its heyday EB was hosted under the Rome section of the forum.

The current scheme has become an unwieldy mess and it presents at least half a dozen semi-dead forums before you get to something with respectable activity.

It makes the site look dead.

Another thing we could do with would be a new theme - the Rome I one never did get ported AFAIK but aside from that a Rome II/Attila one wouldn't be a bad idea. Not a Warhammer one though, Warhammer has been largely ignored here.

Montmorency

10-12-2016, 01:32

Crucially, hosted mods (Archived or otherwise) would be hosted under "Mods" and then "Archive" if they were inactive.

If mods are archived, then archive them in subsections under their game; that's better than the alternative of a "Archived mods" section.

I agree that the EB 'franchise' might as well have its own surface section.

Another thing we could do with would be a new theme

You don't mean a forum skin here, right?

One thing to note about legacy forums for legacy games is that most of the activity for them is dedicated either to tech support (i.e. running the game) or design (i.e. user modding and scenarios). As I mentioned, people who come for the latter usually only have the one post to make on their specific issue. They're not coming here for anything else. For the second, well, what's left is what's left. However,

EBII should just switch to the Attila engine.

is a weird sentiment. I'm not saying everyone should stop their modding for TW games if that's what they are interested in currently, but for EB it's painful given that TW has next-to-nothing to do with the project besides being the host engine. I hope they invest in a serious game with bespoke or alternative engine, or just move on with their lives. When I said "Sisyphean", I meant it in a negative way.

Tuuvi

10-12-2016, 07:47

Gigantus

10-12-2016, 10:03

We're getting off topic here but the goal of the of the EB team was to make Total War more historically accurate, the claim that the engine is incompatible with EB's aims is nonsensical in my opinion. I agree that Total War has big flaws but there's no other strategy game (that I know of at least) that offers both tactical battles and diplomacy, trade, and empire building. You gotta make due with what you have and EB II is a solid, enjoyable mod.

Agreed.

What does not seem to be known is that the modding capability of any version after M2TW is a total disaster. Campaign scripting and map modding is pretty much non existent which reduces modding to unit rosters, start pos medleys and some eye candy dabbling. Mods like TATW or SS, heck any half way decent total conversion are simply not possible.

Otherwise: anything that reduces scrolling on the forum index is an improvement. Is it possible only to display forum titles with comprehensive description and not walls of sub forum titles? (It would make those lonely new version modding forums look less sad, too)

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

10-12-2016, 12:52

If mods are archived, then archive them in subsections under their game; that's better than the alternative of a "Archived mods" section.

I had had a few pints last night. What I meant to say was "Crucially mods would go under a special 'Mods' section for their respective games."

i.e. not how it is now.

You don't mean a forum skin here, right?

yes, a new forum skin.

One thing to note about legacy forums for legacy games is that most of the activity for them is dedicated either to tech support (i.e. running the game) or design (i.e. user modding and scenarios). As I mentioned, people who come for the latter usually only have the one post to make on their specific issue. They're not coming here for anything else. For the second, well, what's left is what's left.

The problem, I think, with a lot of the proposals I have seen here is that it's just all about the games, not the community. It's right to say that the later games were not as well served by the site from M2 onwards (a lot of them were pretty bad at release) but that misses the point. A forum is a community - the strategy should be "come for the Total War, stay for the people"

is a weird sentiment. I'm not saying everyone should stop their modding for TW games if that's what they are interested in currently, but for EB it's painful given that TW has next-to-nothing to do with the project besides being the host engine. I hope they invest in a serious game with bespoke or alternative engine, or just move on with their lives. When I said "Sisyphean", I meant it in a negative way.

From a design perspective Attila has a lot of what we wanted to do for EBI built into the engine, unit balance even plays somewhat like EB and it has all the requisite formations and mechanics to make it work. M2 simply doesn't.

ghostofxmaspast

10-12-2016, 13:23

Ax is about as subtle as a piece of rusty farm machinery, but I have to grudgingly agree with his general position at least, in particular his first post.

The forum is about TW games and however much some members love the backroom/frontroom/gameroom, those are not about TW games, those are the sideshow and no site will ever survive focusing on offtopic alone. It doesn't matter how much traffic they get. Offtopic, is always high traffic chat, it's not an indicator of activity. And in the case of the .org's offtopic, it's the preserve of a few regulars generating an awful lot of posts. Traffic in offtopic is not "traffic" in your on topic sections.

I respect Philippus' opinion on this, but I find the idea of grouping e.g. Shogun 1 and Shogun 2 together or Medieval 1 and Medieval 2 together, to be borderline offensive ( :) ). I'm also surprised, if not a little bemused, at the suggestion to stick offtopic at the top. I've not seen any forum where the offtopic is at the top of the forum index and it makes no sense here either.

There is only one game which MTW should be grouped with (if at all) and that's STW of course. And I also agree that all modding related to those games should be contained within, or visibly attached to, those sections. Index length is irrelevant in this case, as it's important to "expose" what's on offer. A ridiculously long index could be a bad thing, but reducing visibility with the only goal being shortening the index is not a good strategy.

I think this new format isn't bad as such, it's just an unnecessary shake up of the index which wasn't needed. The old format probably needed a little tidy up, not a drastic overhaul. But at this stage discussing "board configuration" amounts to fiddling while Rome burns.

edyz, people wrote tens of thousands of words about "content creation" several years ago and it got us here. Most of the people who discussed that and pushed for more "content" are no longer here. "Synthetic" or forced activity to give an appearance of activity still isn't activity when all is said and done and is just a short lived boost, which cannot be sustained.

Forums are not about "content". This is the realm of blogs, etc. The .org was about a community and people with a shared interest, getting together and discussing this. The forum software only facilitates that. Much of the .org ontopic posts were about questions and answers about the games, posting about campaigns and just advising new players on strategy, game mechanics, etc, etc. A lot of this was repetition. If we turned this into "content", i.e. a nice guide or wiki with all the info you'd ever need on game xyz, in theory you'd kill traffic in the forum - in practice it doesn't work like that because gamers like to come to a forum and discuss these things with other gamers.

Unless people just get in there and start posting about the games again, activity will remain low. It's up to long term, influential members to just do that, rather than sitting around and waiting for a solution from staff/someone else.

In my opinion, what stifled things a few years ago, (around the time of ETW/NTW), was the culture of moderator intrusion. It was not possible to actually get into a heated debate or discussion without a moderator being on your case. I can remember threads going "off topic", but not in a bad way, the moderator appearing and cleaving the thread in half - and effectively killing it. When you do that, especially in a low traffic forum, you don't make me want to continue to participate (you're just letting me know that you're bored).

Pre-emptive moderation ("oh this looks like it might get heated, I'll jump in...") was the accepted norm and it prevented people from being themselves, making their mistakes and stopped things from flowing. I hold my hands up and admit that I did this, at least once, during my time on the staff here.

My point is that, the staff can't make the forum or generate traffic (or content), it's up to the members. In past we used to have a bit of a drive (or revival), every so often, in the MTW(1) forum. I would just post about playing the game, others would chip in and it would snowball from there. Then it would snowball into talking about tactics, modding, etc. That's how it works. You can't "invite" it, create it or "promote" it, you just have to be it.

The staff are important in that if they lose interest in the TW games and running the board for the sake of running the board becomes a hobby/duty/chore, then it will become detrimental to the community. This has happened before and it's partially why we're here discussing this kind of thing (again).

Traffic/activity can also be a false hope. A forum can have high traffic and still be pretty poor and not be a place I'd want to frequent.

Lastly, the idea of aping TWC, looking at TWC and comparing with TWC is not new and it just doesn't help the .org for staff and members to have that approach/mindset. I said it years ago - there cannot be two TWCs and there isn't room for two. .org needs to be radically different, to offer something different - and maybe - to a different kind of player.

As I said in another thread, .org has to follow the whims of CA and TW games became mediocre at best. Pining for CA reps to visit is futile and not at all necessary to the board's health/survival.

Activity - creates content, visits by CA reps (if that's desirable) and new member registration + keeps existing members here. It doesn't work the other way round.

ReluctantSamurai

10-12-2016, 17:40

A forum is a community - the strategy should be "come for the Total War, stay for the people"

A community...yes. But I strongly agree with AX that it's a community made up of micro-communities. Everyone has their favorite TW title(s), and primarily devote their attention to those favorites and essentially ignore the rest. I am certainly selective in this manner. I have my favorites, and I ignore the rest (never, ever have posted in ETW/NTW). I post occasionally in the Backroom/Frontroom, but I detest discussions about religion & politics which more often than not lead to heated confrontations where folks rarely back down, or change their opinion. But I do respect that others find these topics interesting.

The gist of AX's index restructure (as I understand it) is to cater to each "micro-community" and make it easier for any member to find what they want, be it tech info, mod info, or guides.

The forum is about TW games and however much some members love the backroom/frontroom/gameroom, those are not about TW games, those are the sideshow and no site will ever survive focusing on offtopic alone. It doesn't matter how much traffic they get. Offtopic, is always high traffic chat, it's not an indicator of activity. And in the case of the .org's offtopic, it's the preserve of a few regulars generating an awful lot of posts. Traffic in offtopic is not "traffic" in your on topic sections.

This. Spot on, and the sad indicator of what the Org has become (no offense meant to off-topic lovers:quiet:)

My point is that, the staff can't make the forum or generate traffic (or content), it's up to the members.

:2thumbsup:

Montmorency

10-12-2016, 18:15

The gist of AX's index restructure (as I understand it) is to cater to each "micro-community" and make it easier for any member to find what they want, be it tech info, mod info, or guides.

In that case, as the grognard mentions, the index circa 2010 would have been just about right.

Beskar

10-12-2016, 18:46

I have a poll here about forum structure. (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?152160-Forum-Structure)

I would prefer the talk on that subject to be within that topic now, as it is a little different to "Org Promotion" which is a different matter.

edyzmedieval

10-12-2016, 20:27

Thank you very much for the forum structure poll, Beskar. :bow:

I am glad that we're taking a step forward in the right direction, let's keep at it. Please everyone go vote in the thread!

--> https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?152160-Forum-Structure

ghostofxmaspast

10-13-2016, 17:25

Posted in the "forum structure" thread, but my post has to be "approved"?

Someone seems to have forgotten how long and hard we fought to get rid of "junior members" and other such things...

Beskar

10-13-2016, 18:10

Posted in the "forum structure" thread, but my post has to be "approved"?

Someone seems to have forgotten how long and hard we fought to get rid of "junior members" and other such things...

Automatic software on forum, does odd false positive, approved it.

Mouzafphaerre

10-13-2016, 18:22

Ah, the good old days of stratification and class struggle :whip: Back in the day it was Junior Patron, Patron, Junior Member, Member, Senior Member AND WE LIKED IT! :stare:

ghostofxmaspast

10-13-2016, 19:22

Ah, the good old days of stratification and class struggle :whip: Back in the day it was Junior Patron, Patron, Junior Member, Member, Senior Member AND WE LIKED IT! :stare:
That may be true Mouza, but you and I don't speak for everyone here and we certainly can't speak for new members.

I found the junior member thing and restriction of new members to the entrance hall silly and I believe it drove quite a lot of potential members away.

Beskar

10-13-2016, 19:55

I heard it was one of the top reasons/drivers people went to TWC instead of here when this was the big site, and they were a start up.

Monk

10-13-2016, 21:56

Ah, the good old days of stratification and class struggle :whip: Back in the day it was Junior Patron, Patron, Junior Member, Member, Senior Member AND WE LIKED IT! :stare:

back in the dinosaur days when post count was tied into stuff. ~:) The internet has changed a lot since then.

Monk

10-13-2016, 21:57

I heard it was one of the top reasons/drivers people went to TWC instead of here when this was the big site, and they were a start up.

There was a lot of reasons we lost that race. this PROBABLY did not help

edit: i double posted oh no haha

Vincent Butler

10-13-2016, 23:03

I was hoping it would not involve outside software.:no: I wonder if I have some similar program hidden on my newer laptop, I am constantly finding apps on it that I did not know about, simply because of my ignorance of what different stuff is.

Bingo.
For those running their games on Windows 10 (as I am), there is an app already on for doing game DVR, so no need to download external software (I don't think). Here is a link on how to work it
http://gizmodo.com/windows-10-is-hiding-a-great-video-capture-tool-1719196149
I will try this out when I get the time and report.

It seems a lot of blame is going to the index for the lack of enthusiasm for the Org and why TWC is getting a lot of traffic. I don't know that TWC has a much better index than the Org (though theirs does look less cluttered), I think the root problem lies deeper. Now their index seems more vivid with their TWC logos by each section, so that may help them. They have a lot of threads for Attila, much more than we have, but not much for Warhammer (comparatively), which tells me that
a) Warhammer was not as popular as the other games
b) Our problem started before Attila

Identifying exactly what drove people to TWC is the problem, and I don't know if there is any way to find that out. It is a sad state of affairs when the most generated discussion is on how do we get more people to visit the site, instead of the content of the site. It seems we need to get the newcomers, but here is something of note.

I googled "Total War Forums". The .com was the first, then after their stuff came TWC. We were the last link on the page. I googled "help with Rome Total War". I couldn't find us four pages in, I did see some erado.totalwar.org on page 2, whatever that site is. I got .wiki pages, ign.com, Total War Heaven, Steam communities, and TWC on the first page. That is a problem, but with my limited understanding of how that stuff works, I don't know how to fix the problem. Maybe give someone who does know something an idea, though.

Mouzafphaerre

10-13-2016, 23:27

I was just being silly :laugh4:

edyzmedieval

10-14-2016, 19:44

Ah, the good old days of stratification and class struggle :whip: Back in the day it was Junior Patron, Patron, Junior Member, Member, Senior Member AND WE LIKED IT! :stare:

Of course you did. Especially as a Senior Member. :whip:

Tuuvi

10-17-2016, 02:08

It seems a lot of blame is going to the index for the lack of enthusiasm for the Org and why TWC is getting a lot of traffic. I don't know that TWC has a much better index than the Org (though theirs does look less cluttered), I think the root problem lies deeper. Now their index seems more vivid with their TWC logos by each section, so that may help them. They have a lot of threads for Attila, much more than we have, but not much for Warhammer (comparatively), which tells me that
a) Warhammer was not as popular as the other games
b) Our problem started before Attila

Personally I find TWC's index a pain to navigate, I had to click on several different links just to get to the EB II forums so I just bookmarked EB and I haven't really bothered with the rest of the site very much.

You are right that our problem started before Attila, I can remember the activity of this site starting to decline when Empire Total War was released and we had discussions about what to do about the decline back then as well.

Vincent Butler

10-17-2016, 07:39

I attempted to use the in-game DVR, I will have to try it again as it quit in the middle of my battle. I may have to set it up, the webpage I saw has a setup screen in the screenshot, and I did not see it when I went into it, so that may be the problem.

so I just bookmarked EB and I haven't really bothered with the rest of the site very much
That may be happening a lot, I have done it on the Subsim forum I am on. Same with RTR. With the Org, I bookmarked the Forum site, so that is why I notice what is happening in other areas than the Rome forum, which is pretty much the only part I am on.

I have not tried to navigate TWC, but as far as appearance goes, ours seems cluttered. For example, when I go to look at say the Rome section, I see the moderators and links to all the Rome subsections in a small area. Not that I am saying that we should copy them, but perhaps it is something that can be rearranged.

Of course, as RS has pointed out, maybe some of the regulars got their own lives and have less time for the Org. I am still single, so outside of college, work, and church I have no real commitments. Others may have gained some. That said, we are trying to figure out why we aren't getting new people as well. As I pointed out, somebody googling Total War stuff is not going to see us because we are so far down the list of hits. I think that is by amount of visitors to that particular site, but am not sure of that. If we can change that somehow we will be in business.

Perhaps someone can answer this question. How popular is modding the game versus just playing the vanilla version? Do we need to tailor our appeal more to modders or regular gamers? I am just asking because a lot of people bring up the modding community. I know I mainly play just vanilla RTW, some RTR, some EB. I tried MTW2 but the inquisitors drove me away. Also, do more people focus on one game, or do they have a more broad range of the TW games that they play?

Gigantus

10-17-2016, 09:43

I tried MTW2 but the inquisitors drove me away.

That's the kind of stuff that starts it - looking for a fix that is. If the solution is easily found (it's a simple text file edit), or even just the place where to ask, then the forum is doing a good job of providing support.
With the right motivation it also starts modding - even more so if the forum environment supports this as well. That is if you can find the place -

Forum (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/index.php)
Historical Total War Titles (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?401-Historical-Total-War-Titles)
Medieval 2: Total War (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?131-Medieval-2-Total-War)
M2:TW Modification (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?150-M2-TW-Modification)
Learn to Mod (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?173-Learn-to-Mod)
Modding Questions (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?176-Modding-Questions)

Anyone surprised that the last post in that forum was six months ago?

How popular is modding the game versus just playing the vanilla version?

Seriously? The question is probably not asked correctly, the direct answer: if you can't mod then you haven't much of an option. If you still play the vanilla version after more then 10 years then hats off to you.
If the question is 'Do you still play vanilla or modded versions?' then I am wondering if you have ever tried a mod.

With regards to RTW and M2TW I would simply say that without the excellent modding capabilities these versions have they would have slipped into oblivion like ETW, NTW, S2 have already done and as R2 is busy doing. I think the question should be 'How much modding is still happening and how can it be supported'.

Certainly not by burying the forums 5 levels down.

Axalon

10-17-2016, 14:53

:laugh4: Toché!

Excellent post, Gigs.

- A

Gigantus

10-17-2016, 15:00

Thanks, I have my moments https://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll264/Gigantus_pics/Emoticons/whistle.gif

Vincent Butler

10-17-2016, 18:00

That's the kind of stuff that starts it - looking for a fix that is. If the solution is easily found (it's a simple text file edit), or even just the place where to ask, then the forum is doing a good job of providing support.
With the right motivation it also starts modding - even more so if the forum environment supports this as well. That is if you can find the place -

Forum (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/index.php)
Historical Total War Titles (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?401-Historical-Total-War-Titles)
Medieval 2: Total War (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?131-Medieval-2-Total-War)
M2:TW Modification (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?150-M2-TW-Modification)
Learn to Mod (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?173-Learn-to-Mod)
Modding Questions (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?176-Modding-Questions)

Anyone surprised that the last post in that forum was six months ago?

Seriously? The question is probably not asked correctly, the direct answer: if you can't mod then you haven't much of an option. If you still play the vanilla version after more then 10 years then hats off to you.
If the question is 'Do you still play vanilla or modded versions?' then I am wondering if you have ever tried a mod.

Good point on how far you have to go to find stuff on modding.

I think I like vanilla RTW because of its simplicity. RTR is nice, but still has bugs last I knew, and with 16 credits this semester, including three upper division electrical engineering classes, I have had virtually zero time for gaming.

I love EB, but it is certainly more in-depth. With the extra lengths of time to build, and increased costs of building and training, it is not as casual, so I will have to wait till I get more time to devote to a campaign. Also, it has a tendency to eventually crash in a campaign, and I can't get those campaigns to work again. I like to see a campaign through at least till I beat the game, preferably till I conquer the entire map. However, with EB, that will probably not be the case, considering the size of the map.

Gigantus

10-17-2016, 18:34

You just stated more reasons why mods need the proper exposure and support. Picking up a mod and trying it and then having problems playing is a sure put off if you haven't got good access to problem solving. It's rather simple - the more feed back a mod has the better it will evolve.

Putting 'older' (low traffic) mods into a forum suffixed 'Archive' is about as much as a death kiss as one can wish for:

Rome: Total War (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?157-Rome-Total-War)

(1 Viewing)
Old or Inactive Hosted R:TW Mods

Last post - July this year, a bit over 30 mods in there. Any surprises?

All in all you have 5 active mods for all Total War versions - prominently displayed and taking all the lime light. Now why would anyone bother about those other 30 mods further down?

Husar

10-17-2016, 19:06

Vincent Butler

10-17-2016, 22:18

You just stated more reasons why mods need the proper exposure and support. Picking up a mod and trying it and then having problems playing is a sure put off if you haven't got good access to problem solving. It's rather simple - the more feed back a mod has the better it will evolve.

All in all you have 5 active mods for all Total War versions - prominently displayed and taking all the lime light. Now why would anyone bother about those other 30 mods further down?

Now how many mods are actually active working mods and not just projects? That is also relevant, because obviously if it is not active, nobody can play it and therefore there will only be activity from the modders, if they are still even working on it. Those might be able to go into a separate category, and if they become active, they can be moved up at the request of the modders.

Gigantus

10-18-2016, 01:50

It's only two clicks from the first layer to the last.
How would you arrange this particular example to make it more accessible or easier to find?
Getting into the 'modding questions' forum is actually three clicks if you go directly to 'modifications' from the forum view. My suggestion: Have a 'workshop' forum with sub fora for each game version. It's intuitive and central. It will also make the limited material appear more substantial.
Note: while displaying child forums in the forum view works well in this case it unnecessarily stretches the forum page (Hosted Mods (Archive) section), not having the child fora alphabetically sorted doesn't help either in long lists.

Now how many mods are actually active working mods and not just projects? That is also relevant, because obviously if it is not active, nobody can play it and therefore there will only be activity from the modders, if they are still even working on it. Those might be able to go into a separate category, and if they become active, they can be moved up at the request of the modders.
It's irrelevant if a mod is active or not (be it traffic wise or modding wise) when it comes to playing - provided the download link is still valid. Pro Deo et Rege (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?437-PRO-DEO-ET-REGE) (the first mod I participated in should you wonder) over at TWC is dead for at least 5 years now and still gets downloaded. Putting those inactive mods into a separate forum is simply putting a 'certified dead, of no further interest, don't bother' stamp on it. That's what 'archive' means on a website, it's for reference purpose only.
A website takes it's significance from the traffic it generates, actively excluding content from possible traffic goes completely against that.

Shuffling individual forums back and forth according to activity is probably every admins night mare - never mind 'oops, where is my favorite mod now?'.

Leaving all mods of a game version in one forum doesn't hurt their viewing rate: at TWC EBII is in between 68 other mods (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?556-Kingdoms-Hosted-Modifications) (alphabetically sorted) and still has double the posts compared to here where it has got a prime, top level forum to itself.

Edit: it's probably best if I a do a clarification so as to avoid misunderstandings - I have been an administrator at TWC for several years now and going into details how to approach the issue (eg what vbulletin add-on to use or which content strategy to follow) constitutes a conflict of interest for me. I do however owe you the courtesy as participating member of this forum to point out areas that I think need change and offer general suggestions.
Correcting misconceptions is par for the course.

edyzmedieval

10-18-2016, 10:34

Gig, from my part, I am aware you are the admin of TWC - but that should not stop you from posting suggestions. You are a member of the Org as well, you are definitely entitled to your own opinions and they are welcome, particularly when you have considerable forum experience.

~:)

Gigantus

10-18-2016, 10:46

I won't stop making broad suggestions or point the finger in a direction and leave the choice of following up on it to you - I simply mentioned it because others might wonder why I am making noise and don't come up with more detailed suggestions. Nothing more irritating then a complainer that doesn't offer a proper alternative. https://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll264/Gigantus_pics/Emoticons/tongue.gif

Axalon

10-18-2016, 12:02

I generally agree with what Gigantus says in his posts above (post 159 & 162) save two things, and I’ll try to focus on that in this post here. I'll try to provide some perspective out of the actual receiving end, as a published modder in general on this site….

1. In order for there to be a point in have a mod hosted, and especially so in this site it has to pay off in gaining/holding that status for your project. It has too pay off somehow to keep supporting and maintaining it, even after completion. It has too be attractive, beneficial and meaningful to do so on this site. It has too go beyond the standard package of sub-fora and local moderator rights. It has too offer something more, it has to be something better. The most natural and viable step in that direction that this site CAN offer is probably location and by extension exposure, and the neighboring and available infrastructure here. The location has too be as good, or preferably better then the usual/regular space for ordinary threads – if not, then the “Hosted Mod”-package will have fundamentally failed in attracting potential candidates in a competitive way (which is a necessity). This failure has actually happened here at the Org in the past, and several mods seems to have turned down the prospect of gaining hosted status. Obviously that is bad. Having mods hosted is a benefit and advantage for a site, as it draws strength and traffic from that stuff – once properly supported and established – it generates traffic and interest to this site. This goes especially for a small struggling site like this one. So, attractive location is an important factor that has too be included in the "hosted mod"-package, and as it is - its not (not on this site anyways). This basically leads us to my second point...

2. Being bunched up and forced to share section/category with EB 1 & 2 are nowhere as glamorous as Gigantus suggest it to be (in post:159). The fact is that the ONLY common ground the other three small projects have with EB is: they happen to be mod-projects too. Its not for the same games, its not for the same crowds, its not the same ideas, problems or challenges. We are structurally severed from our base game, on which we always depend. We have no exchange with EB, at all. We have zero reason too, its not same games. The unrealistic and oversimplified “community”-concept and notion that this administration keeps insisting upon falls apart right here. The reality is that there is no community in the "Hosted Mod"-section/category of this site – not between EB's and the other projects who are forced to reside there. At least all the other three projects are for the same game - MTW. So technically I could go to - say the “Ancient boys” – and ask if they had a clue on whatever problem X and hopefully get some assistance or further clues on it, or they could come to me. That is possible, because it the same game. We have at least something, in common.

Then there are manpower and scale factors. "Redux" is a solo-projext, "Pike & Musket" are 1-3 people, "Ancient" 3-5 people. Its small stuff in comparison with EB 1&2, and it need posts, interest and exposure on a whole other level the EB 1&2 does with its roughly 10 moderators each. I am one man, I alone can only go so far in the Redux-area, I have certainly tried talking to myself but in the end I must have external input and posts all the same for anything to truly happen there. Basically, its an entirely different reality, with completely different problems and challenges. All this are roughly true and representative for the other two MTW-projects as well, as I understand it. Its like two virtual skyscrapers and three small houses sorted in the same place because they are all “buildings”. Its absurd and is NOT doing the other three projects any favours. That's the experience I had consistently some 4+ years now...

The "limelight" Gigs, is the great and eternal shadow of two skyscrapers upon our three small houses, I seen little else thus far...

- A

Gigantus

10-18-2016, 12:40

Having unrelated mods in one forum is an unhappy solution - splitting it up to highlight the actual game version they belong to doesn't make much sense either given the quantity.

Maybe I am simply used to it - but I still think the arrangement at TWC works where the game version is the top forum with the direct child forums being general discussion, mod projects and mod workshops. (two clicks to mod questions https://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll264/Gigantus_pics/Emoticons/tongue.gif ) If highlighting of active mods is desired then putting a simple divider (finger pointing to the forum manager in vbulletin) in the forum's mod list should not present a problem, similar to what we have by way of 'mods under development' in the same forum as 'released mods'. Which means instead of sitting alone next to strange skyscrapers you sit at the top of your peers' list. (Insert nag: don't forget that alphabetical sorting)

Simply put the 'active' mod forums above the divider and the 'older' ones below. And under no circumstance use words like 'archive' or 'inactive' in the divider!

https://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll264/Gigantus_pics/Modding%20Stuff/Modding%20Temp/split.jpg

Vincent Butler

10-18-2016, 18:20

So is it accurate to say that we need to increase awareness of our existence, or is that only a minor issue, and we need to get the people who know of us back, and focus in that direction? My point is, do we want to focus on drawing the prodigals back, or focus more on new members? Obviously we want to do both, but maybe we should focus more on one. Then again, as has been pointed out, we get plenty of new members who post in the Entrance Hall and then never show up again. Why, is the question that we need to know the answer for.
It seems the consensus (and I am not disagreeing) is the reason the new members don't stick around is the same reason longer-standing members left. The blame is going to the index, which probably is a contributing factor, though it can't be the only factor. There have to be more reasons. I know that I get tired of seeing arguments between members who disagree with each other, and the argument gets drawn out. I imagine that is the same on other forums, people are people.
It seems our main competition in this order are the .com, TWC, and Steam Communities. The .com is at the top of a Google search, does that mean they get the most visits? The assumption would be since they are the .com website, as opposed to .org or .net, they are the official site of the game and therefore the best place to go. How do we draw attention away from them and to us?
I know I am stating what everyone is saying, I am kind of just thinking out loud, identifying the problems and possible solutions. In my opinion, visibility is our problem. I forget how I got to the Org (glad I did), I joined in 2014, and at the time, it seemed less confusing than Total War Heaven, which I kept associating with TWC to some degree, don't ask me why. The layout of our index was very easy to follow as I was simply trying to get to RTW forums. Going deeper would probably have been more confusing.

Vincent Butler

10-18-2016, 18:22

Sorry, double post.

edyzmedieval

10-18-2016, 22:43

Vincent Butler

10-19-2016, 04:35

IMHO, getting both older and newer members is our thing. We want our old guard back - clearly - but we do realise that not too many of them will return because one of the reasons that people do not visit the boards any more is because they do not play Total War any more. From my part, I still do, and I still love the games, hence why I still come back here and also because I really enjoy this place. ~:)

Yeah, I understand. I am stuck with no life right now, so this is as much social interaction as I get. So the trick is figuring out how to draw and keep new visitors, and get the old ones back who are still interested. For the new crowd, we need to make it interesting. For the old crowd, we need to make it simple to navigate, which will also keep new members.
Ideas for the videos on the front page. For interesting, is the Narnia Total War mod working? Videos of gameplay of that might draw attention~D. But also videos of naval battles might get attention, something out of the ordinary. Rome 2 could do sea battles, right? That would probably be very interesting, certainly out of the ordinary. Only problem is, somebody just wanting to watch videos of the gameplay will probably just go to Youtube, so Youtube can be a double-edged sword. Links to the Org from there would probably serve us well, people decide to check us out after seeing the videos. Some of our guys probably already do that anyway.

And why do I have a picture of a shark as my avatar when my title says Legionary Moose? Oh well, I'll leave that question for the philosophers. Sharks are cool, moose are not.

edyzmedieval

10-19-2016, 12:22

These are the points that I have been making, and that I will try and rectify. Freshening up the content around is needed, and having local content would make this top notch. ~:)

ghostofxmaspast

10-19-2016, 14:58

These are the points that I have been making, and that I will try and rectify. Freshening up the content around is needed, and having local content would make this top notch. ~:)
Please do explain how one goes about "freshening up the content"?

You do know that a messageboard is just a means of community building and interaction, etc...? "content" doesn't even come into it. "content" is in fact old ground which has been gone over before and this is the result.

Years ago it was discussed and transpired that most members came to the .org for the forum, there were quite a few who did not even know there was a website attached to it.

edyzmedieval

10-19-2016, 16:18

Sure.

On the side, you have some videos. A video tab with TW videos. Those need refreshing. Similarly, you had things over here like contests, Gahzette, different Org competitions over time... that's the Org content. By refreshing I mean adding more content and generating more for our local patrons. They visit this place, so in order to keep them here, we have to keep our patrons engaged. ~:)

I totally agree with you that this is a forum that people come to it to discuss, and they come here for that. Totally agree here. What we can do is to offer them a bit more than just the discussion in itself. ~:)

ghostofxmaspast

10-19-2016, 17:02

edyzmedieval

10-19-2016, 17:31

No, not in that way.

Refreshing content doesn't necessarily mean redoing old things. Producing content is done by the members, not by the Org itself. We do not act as content producers - because there is no point in doing that and there are plenty of people producing quality content. I propose that the Org acts as content promoters, which is a different game than producing the content. Promote the content, people want to see content, and we have the platform. Encourage the discussion and promote the relevant, quality content. ~:)

Vincent Butler

10-19-2016, 18:23

Sure.

On the side, you have some videos. A video tab with TW videos. Those need refreshing.

I was thinking the same thing, how long has that Sekigahara video been up there? As long as I can remember. That would probably help.

Also agreed, the main reason people come here is the forum. I first came here for advice, and then to give advice. Also, as one gains experience, he needs less help, so he comes here less. That is why we need to increase our visibility to draw new members. Increasing our visibility is one of our problems, and I have not really come up with a solution yet.
We also need to provide incentive for older members to stick around, if they still play. That is where the competitions come into play. Then again, a tournament/competition probably requires a time commitment, which I know I cannot commit to right now, and I am sure others either. Then again, with more members, the number of those who could participate is greater, so again, that is why we need more members. As has been pointed out, many members who left left because they stopped playing due to other commitments.

Part of the reason I stick around is the community, but I still play, so I still want advice sometimes dealing with a particular issue. That is why we need the older members.

edyzmedieval

10-20-2016, 01:17

Indeed. Increasing visibility on all channels is the way forward, because Total War has a very big fanbase.

And an even bigger fanbase now with Warhammer!

Gigantus

10-20-2016, 04:45

Content on the home page only makes sense if it is informative - which means it needs to be up to date where game news is concerned as well as being regularly renewed where stuff like spot lighting of mods, articles is concerned. The members themselves are the best contributors for that, simply put an admin in charge of screening and placing it and do a global (vbulletin) promotion of it to encourage contribution.

ReluctantSamurai

10-20-2016, 12:19

as well as being regularly renewed where stuff like spot lighting of mods

And seeing as how modders are probably the second largest crowd to visit the Org, spotlighting their craft makes a world of sense.

edyzmedieval

10-20-2016, 13:05

Informative content, related to Total War, related to the community, made by the community... This is what we should aim for to promote on the Org. :yes:

ghostofxmaspast

10-20-2016, 14:22

Informative content, related to Total War, related to the community, made by the community... This is what we should aim for to promote on the Org. :yes:
This has been tried. I know the result, you know the result. Everyone who has been here at least 5 years should know the result.

Hate to sound negative, but you're going over the same tired old ground... you're talking about content, but there is no detail there as to where it's going to come from, who is going to produce it and what form it should take. No amount of positive thinking or over exuberance is going to change that.

One possible approach, which perhaps hasn't been considered, is to get rid of the .org's front page altogether and ensure that forums.totalwar.org goes straight to the board index. Then the clear focus will be on the forum it itself without the burden of anyone having to maintain the website. It also focuses on the site's main strength and will get people straight into the forum without 'extra clicks'.

News can take the form of a forum and members can post links, etc and write short articles. This is much more sustainable that the current format which requires someone having to devote time to update something which few probably bother to read. This also puts more into the hands of members and takes away from admins having to maintain it.

edyzmedieval

10-20-2016, 18:42

Patience my young (old? :tongue:) Padawan. ~:)

This will be a bit long. :book:

This is not about the front page, or any other page apart from the forum in itself. The detail where the content is going to come from - we have members who offered themselves to provide content, just above, in this thread. And that's just one example. We still have TW players - myself included, who can provide content. There's hundreds of YouTubers who only require an invitation to come here and post their videos and encourage discussion, alongside them becoming members and actively participating. Why would they do that? Free promotion. We have members, we have guests, we have lurkers - we can provide the views they need. We want their content, they want the views. It's a win-win situation for both sides, if done correctly.

This is not in any way about the front page or anything other than the forum in itself - you have people posting content, and this will encourage discussion, especially if later down the road we can manage some Org contests with the people who create this content.

You can argue that we're bringing people who are interested only for our views - not so. In order for them to have a following that allows them to get the views they want, they themselves have to encourage discussion. It's complex, but it's workable. ~:)

And what type of content? Any type that showcases TW. Videos, let's play's, photographs/screenshots, walkthroughs, AARs... anything goes.

Rehashing old ideas just to see if they work again is not the way this time. Clearly not.

We need freshness. Fresh ideas, fresh discussions, fresh content... and think of it this way. We have the future historical TW game coming out in the future. 6-9 months until the announcement. At most 16 months until release. But the hype will be big - that as much will be given that the latest TW title is of the fantasy type. So expect a lot of engagement and buzz around it. Making sure we invite people around here and showing them that we have discussions worth participating in is the way forward, and this also includes discussions around the content offered on the website. :yes:

Axalon

10-20-2016, 20:41

Maybe I am simply used to it - but I still think the arrangement at TWC works where the game version is the top forum with the direct child forums being general discussion, mod projects and mod workshops. (two clicks to mod questions https://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll264/Gigantus_pics/Emoticons/tongue.gif ) If highlighting of active mods is desired then putting a simple divider (finger pointing to the forum manager in vbulletin) in the forum's mod list should not present a problem, similar to what we have by way of 'mods under development' in the same forum as 'released mods'. Which means instead of sitting alone next to strange skyscrapers you sit at the top of your peers' list. (Insert nag: don't forget that alphabetical sorting)

Gigs, what can I tell you…

I have been saying essentially the same or similar things since May 2012. It would be a natural and sensible thing to do, having some rational sub-sections per each game, to increase coverage and access to that game and what happening in relation to that game on the site. TWC is an obvious example that such stuff does work and function just fine, and it is a clearly better way to deal with the games, regardless of which. But none of this supposedly apply to the Org. Instead, people here refuse to recognize that, and when all other arguments failed them, the last and prevailing reason for not doing it was - it creates “a too long" and "non-user-friendly index”! The scrolling would be at unacceptable levels, supposedly. We can’t have that and so the “solution” was to create roughly the index we now have. That’s Org-logics for you, in full glory…

Personally, I think one must have the mind-set of a complete idiot in order to actually fail to see that the index-length is (and always will be) secondary to the purpose of any site. The index is a tool to serve the site. But at the Org, this apparently don’t apply and instead the index and no-scrolling doctrine are more important then the actual purpose of the site. Its fubar all over, as far as I am concerned. By the looks of it, in this vote, we are heading to some half-assery on general TW-coverage. It will be better then the index what we got now, but its nowhere close to what you (and me) are talking about, or what this site in really needs to compete effectively, as I understand it.

Again, a short index will never do this place any favors, it never did thus far, and the current state of the site is the ultimate receipt of that fact, and none of this will somehow magically change in the future. Yet that is essentially what the majority here are still hoping and voting for…

- A

Vincent Butler

10-20-2016, 20:44

And what type of content? Any type that showcases TW. Videos, let's play's, photographs/screenshots, walkthroughs, AARs... anything goes.

So what exactly is meant by a Let's Play versus a video vs AARs versus walkthroughs? I guess a walkthrough could be like a tutorial, but what is a Let's Play or an AAR? As opposed to just a video.

edyzmedieval

10-20-2016, 20:46

So what exactly is meant by a Let's Play versus a video vs AARs versus walkthroughs? I guess a walkthrough could be like a tutorial, but what is a Let's Play or an AAR? As opposed to just a video.

Walkthrough - a gamer explains you the ins and outs of the game, the whole story or just tips to play better on a specific level. (see the Assassin's Creed gameplay walkthroughs)

Let's Play - a gamer actively shows the game, this is usually done on MP games, and you can also invite your friends to play along (look at Jackfrags and LevelCap)

AAR - Written form of gameplay, along with a showcase of writing talent and added fiction story

Videos - showcasing either gameplay or specific aspects of the game

Axalon

10-20-2016, 21:23

In 2012, i was discussing content and content-branch maybe there will be something interesting in what I said back then even today... You decide...

I’ll be plain. The job of the members here is to generate and contribute content somehow on this site, yours – the content branch - is to see to it that this content gets recognized and receives proper coverage/promotion at various levels so more people get to know about it. That is what you and your branch are supposed to do. That is what this site needs. That is what actually matters here, or so I believe.

Content is material of any kind that can be used seriously by any third party somehow. That is content. That is the stuff that has some sort of value attached to it somehow. Chatter and jokes are not content because it can not be seriously used by any third party. This site is supposed to have a TW-focus. Thus TW-related content take priority. That is what needs promotion, coverage and recognition. That is what you should be focusing on. To do this task properly and seriously, you need manpower. Get that manpower. Once you have that manpower, you assign at least 1 content-branch operative to each and every TW-section – as to ensure that each section is properly covered no matter what, and this constantly and visibly. No TW-section takes priority over another, because this site can not afford such luxuries in order to be competitive (I have already explained why in previous posts).

...

The reality I see is that your branch have already had a fair chance of doing things “your way”, people here have had their chance to get spontaneous like crazy and properly recognize and support stuff posted on this site. This for over a year. It has not happened. Neither has the full functionality of your branch. You still don’t have the manpower you need to cover all TW-sections which strikes me as a priority.... Now, explain to me why it is still warranted somehow continue the current doctrine and practices by content branch? Or why we can somehow still afford to sit and wait for some unlikely and unreliable spontaneity?

To me it is obvious. The content branch must start acting like the failsafe it is supposed to be and get real. As in step in and do the job that needs to be done in order for this site to get a chance of a revival somehow. That means that everything that deserves recognition and coverage gets it – this regardless of how apathetic and incapable members here might be. This means that the people that actually do generate interesting and noteworthy content somehow get recognition and appreciation so they have at least some reason to do it all over again – here. Once your branch is fully operational and each and every TW-section is properly covered at all times you can start worrying about all secondary things. That includes stuff like emancipation etc. Creating new trends and traditions on the board that serves and works beneficially for all – instead of the all too usual apathy. To encourage and support members to do this stuff on their own without direct involvement from staff etc. etc. etc. Because I think you are right in that part at least, emancipation is indeed desirable and it is a worthy goal to strive for here. However, we are not there, we are not even close to that, and we don’t have a strong enough community to even hope for any of that – let alone rely on that. Thus your branch must act decisively and lead by example as to show people how it is supposed to be and what people here should do, and where. In the meantime, the machinery of recognizing and promoting content on the boards must still happen anyways and that is the job of content-branch, a failsafe to kick in whenever and wherever the membership fails. This constantly, seriously and visibly on all TW-sections…

...

Lastly, the front page alone is not enough to do the job, or so I believe. I think we need more places, ways and channels to promote and recognize content somehow on this site. I don’t have any exact suggestions but I think that every TW-section should have its own lesser counterpart to that somehow – which deals exclusively with stuff related to that section. As sort of “note-board” to put up “local” section-notes and -news of interest for that community – a place where members can put up their own notes as well. Basically, something other and additional to the existing front-page.

- A

Monk

10-21-2016, 03:14

Gah... that's my point - all the "content" such as Gahzette and contests has been tried. It didn't make a jot of difference and the people involved just burnt out. Do you simply intend to repeat the same process all over again?

You can't build traffic and interest out of something that volatile. Any effort where a few designated people fuss about doing all the legwork to generate "content" is doomed to failure - sorry but it's been tried and it failed.

One of the reasons it failed was because staff and members were posting in here (or in the private staff forum) about running a board and generating 'content' and designing new themes to increase traffic, instead of posting in the main forum about the games, which this site is supposed to be about.

I have a feeling i knew you under a different name, in a different time, because you're spot on. Thank you for continuing to contribute to this discussion. I am pretty much in full agreement with you, ghost.

The .org simply needs to go back to it's roots, it doesn't need to have people running it as a hobby website and trying to put it on the map. .org will be niche and low traffic because that's what it is.

Be the traffic and the activity and the "content" will appear naturally...

:thumbsup:

This is not about the front page, or any other page apart from the forum in itself. The detail where the content is going to come from - we have members who offered themselves to provide content, just above, in this thread. And that's just one example. We still have TW players - myself included, who can provide content. There's hundreds of YouTubers who only require an invitation to come here and post their videos and encourage discussion, alongside them becoming members and actively participating. Why would they do that? Free promotion. We have members, we have guests, we have lurkers - we can provide the views they need. We want their content, they want the views. It's a win-win situation for both sides, if done correctly.

:shrug:

i think you are severely overestimating this site's digital footprint.

ghostofxmaspast

10-21-2016, 12:04

This is not about the front page, or any other page apart from the forum in itself.
Really, I thought this thread was about "org promotion"?

There's hundreds of YouTubers
Who are on youtube and can post on youtube, or if they follow the latest games, can even go to the TWC which has the highest traffic. You're suggesting yet another desperate attempt to capture a market which already has a well established venue. TWC is not a new forum any more, for many players it's a well established site with a rich history. It all started with RTW and for many TW players that's where it all started anyway...

The .org won't succeed in competition it needs to offer something different - and especially something to those have supported it for 15+ years - not just another clone of popular sites.

If that has to be radical, 'elitist', quirky or just different then so be it. If the .org has to hang a sign over the door which says "this might not be for you", then so be it.

I have a feeling i knew you under a different name, in a different time, because you're spot on. Thank you for continuing to contribute to this discussion. I am pretty much in full agreement with you, ghost.
Thanks, it's a refreshing change to be able to post an opinion here without being regarded with suspicion / as a troll.

:bow:

edyzmedieval

10-21-2016, 13:41

Really, I thought this thread was about "org promotion"?

It is about Org Promotion...? The front page is the front page, there's not much to do with that unless it suffers a total redesign. I'm talking about the forum here. We're promoting the forum, the Org forum, hence Org Promotion.

Who are on youtube and can post on youtube, or if they follow the latest games, can even go to the TWC which has the highest traffic. You're suggesting yet another desperate attempt to capture a market which already has a well established venue. TWC is not a new forum any more, for many players it's a well established site with a rich history. It all started with RTW and for many TW players that's where it all started anyway...

Posting videos on YouTube won't magically garner views for you as a content producer. Those viewers have to come from somwhere, correct?

The .org won't succeed in competition it needs to offer something different - and especially something to those have supported it for 15+ years - not just another clone of popular sites.

Never a clone, this is the Org we're talking about. I'm proposing different avenues to explore, different ideas, coming up with suggestions to get back the traffic to at least good levels (not like 2005 - 2006, that will be quite hard to do).

Thanks, it's a refreshing change to be able to post an opinion here without being regarded with suspicion / as a troll.

All suggestions welcome Ghost, no suspicion or trolling. :bow:

ghostofxmaspast

10-21-2016, 14:45

It is about Org Promotion...? The front page is the front page, there's not much to do with that unless it suffers a total redesign. I'm talking about the forum here. We're promoting the forum, the Org forum, hence Org Promotion.
I mentioned getting rid of the front page and having forums.totalwar.org redirect to the index, your response was "this is not about the front page".

Posting videos on YouTube won't magically garner views for you as a content producer. Those viewers have to come from somwhere, correct?
I was under the impression that search engines or just searching youtube would find such 'content'? I'm failing to see how relevant total war videos on youtube are however? If someone wants to post their video, they do that, either at .com the .org or TWC. I doubt they see themselves as "content producers"...

Never a clone, this is the Org we're talking about. I'm proposing different avenues to explore, different ideas, coming up with suggestions to get back the traffic to at least good levels (not like 2005 - 2006, that will be quite hard to do).
Unfortunately so far as I can tell, you have no ideas except that people need to produce 'content' and that will increase traffic. Sounds familiar...

Sorry to be blunt, but your posts just come across as empty "business speak".

edyzmedieval

10-21-2016, 16:15

I mentioned getting rid of the front page and having forums.totalwar.org redirect to the index, your response was "this is not about the front page".

Org never used the front page like other websites did. We have the front page to occasionally promote articles, different events and similar contests but other than that, it was not used like let's say TWC did to constantly promote mods and articles and other things. So the front page in the whole scheme of TW Org is not really that important.

Getting rid of it would probably suffice and do good - I'm neutral on this aspect.

I was under the impression that search engines or just searching youtube would find such 'content'? I'm failing to see how relevant total war videos on youtube are however? If someone wants to post their video, they do that, either at .com the .org or TWC. I doubt they see themselves as "content producers"...

Yes, and no. Yes, search engines and searching would bring you the content. No - that is not enough. There's hundreds of YouTube videos on popular games, and you'd be surprised to see some quality gameplay videos or walkthroughs that have under 1000 views.

Unfortunately so far as I can tell, you have no ideas except that people need to produce 'content' and that will increase traffic. Sounds familiar...

They don't need to. They already do. It's already there. And people produce content anyhow.

And that doesn't magically increase traffic just because it's there.

I'm trying to explain here that getting more members, after this restructuring is done, would require the Org to have discussions. Getting them to sign up will happen only if people see that we are active. It's a snowball effect. The more active this place is, the more members you get. And those discussions are on TW games, on off topics, on modding, on everything that has a subforum and place in this whole TW Org website. Getting people to stay engaged is to make sure the discussions are active, stimulating and interesting pretty much. One of the ideas - one, not the whole thing, just one - would be to have more discussions on content produced by either Orgahs or people from outside.