View Full Version : Catalonia
Sarmatian
10-07-2016, 23:37
Over the last few years, various Catalonian politicians have been pushing the idea of a referendum for independence from Spain.
On Thursday, the regional parliament voted that referendum will be held in 2017 (http://www.euronews.com/2016/10/06/catalonia-ups-pressure-on-madrid-over-independence-referendum), with or without Madrid's approval. The central government has so far maintained that Catalonia isn't allowed to hold a referendum, let alone secede because the Spanish constitution doesn't allow it.
A July poll has Leave slightly ahead, 48 to 42%.
It is interesting, the people's tendency to blame someone else when things go south.
Show me a country who's constitution has a framework for regional succession built in from jump? Legitimately asking, I can't think of one. I think they need to have a referendum and get it out of their system. Not matter how it goes. But with the problems in the central government this light just lead to a bigger mess.
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Seamus Fermanagh
10-08-2016, 18:33
Show me a country who's constitution has a framework for regional succession built in from jump? Legitimately asking, I can't think of one. I think they need to have a referendum and get it out of their system. Not matter how it goes. But with the problems in the central government this light just lead to a bigger mess.
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Even the USA, which by the nature of its founding by the "several states" SHOULD have had such a procedure, did not include it in the Constitution. That was actually part of Lincoln's legal stance at the time of the ACW, that the Southern states had now right to secede.
Catalan separatism -- and the upcoming referendum -- even made it to our NPR news via the BBC hour. I predict that they will vote to secede. I have no idea if they can make a real go of it as an independent country.
Gilrandir
10-09-2016, 07:26
On Thursday, the regional parliament voted that referendum will be held in 2017 (http://www.euronews.com/2016/10/06/catalonia-ups-pressure-on-madrid-over-independence-referendum), with or without Madrid's approval.
They had one in 2014. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_referendum,_2014
And?
This one is going to be just another wish-wash.
rory_20_uk
10-09-2016, 16:59
Given that Lichtenstein somehow manages to cope, and Catalonia gives a lot more money to Spain than they receive they would be fine - unless the rest of Spain and the EU spitefully tries to punish them for not realising that all right minded people want to be part of one mass and anyone that disagrees is an Enemy of the People.
Democracy is all about choosing one leader from a pre-set group, not about stating that you'd like a different structure altogether.
~:smoking:
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-10-2016, 01:59
Yeah, Catalonia is both the literal and financial breadbasket. The question isn't how they'd cope, it's how the Castilians would cope, because you can bet Basque Country would be next to leave, followed by Valencia.
For that reason Madrid isn't going to let this happen in the current climate.
What if the greater London area left? Or Bavaria? What if Rotterdam left the Netherlands?
All this "we are rich, so let's leave the poor people behind to enjoy our riches more" is starting to get on my nerves, greedy *insert insult*... :sweatdrop:
There was a time when this was so bad that the poor people began to hang or behead the rich ones, have we not learned anything from history?
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-10-2016, 14:42
What if the greater London area left? Or Bavaria? What if Rotterdam left the Netherlands?
All this "we are rich, so let's leave the poor people behind to enjoy our riches more" is starting to get on my nerves, greedy *insert insult*... :sweatdrop:
There was a time when this was so bad that the poor people began to hang or behead the rich ones, have we not learned anything from history?
Globalisation has exposed to the rich that they are more similar to each other than to the poor people surrounding them. Building the EU has accelerated this process, so that the Nation States are under greater strain than they have been in centuries as the urbanised centre of each State benefits from the EU, and globalisation, whilst the peripheral regions do not.
Gilrandir
10-10-2016, 14:58
What if the greater London area left? Or Bavaria? What if Rotterdam left the Netherlands?
London or Rotterdam can't boast of any history separate from the whole country, rather the country was formed around them. Besides, there is no separate Rotterdamese or Londonese ethnicity/nation or language.
Bavaria is a different story, but they still can't claim to have a different language or culture. Catalonia is lucky (or unlucky, depending on your point of view) to have all of those, so it is not about economy (or not only about economy).
Globalisation has exposed to the rich that they are more similar to each other than to the poor people surrounding them. Building the EU has accelerated this process, so that the Nation States are under greater strain than they have been in centuries as the urbanised centre of each State benefits from the EU, and globalisation, whilst the peripheral regions do not.
Who are the rich? I'd say that is hogwash because the rich already knew that before globalisation.
The problem is that the poor don't get the same thing and do nothing against it. Globalisation is not a problem, the poor refusing to take part in it and use it to their advantage, that is the problem. Since even the poor can afford to have internet access, they can potentially benefit from it more than the rich because the rich could coordinate better than the poor before the internet and have basically lost that advantage.
Too bad that the poor hate eachother between countries while the rich trade, cooperate and suck the poor dry while they're busy with infighting. And to just state that cities are rich and countryside poor seems incredibly wrong. Maybe it works somewhat in the UK where London is the only thing people call a city, but there are plenty of poor cities around.
Whether the EU accelerated the discrepancy between rich and poor is not clear at all, plenty of theories say that the information age did that because the invention of robots, computers and IT in general has shifted the focus from human capital to merely capital in order to produce something. Meaning rich people depend less on workers to be able to produce something, earn more money, etc. Now given that the formation of the EU and the advance of IT fall roughly into the same time period, I might as well argue that the EU slowed that process down a bit given that international corporations cannot play one european nation against another as much anymore, see the EU telling Ireland that it cannot host corporations for close to or actually zero tax.
Greyblades
10-10-2016, 17:06
What if the greater London area left? Or Bavaria? What if Rotterdam left the Netherlands?
All this "we are rich, so let's leave the poor people behind to enjoy our riches more" is starting to get on my nerves, greedy *insert insult*... :sweatdrop:
There was a time when this was so bad that the poor people began to hang or behead the rich ones, have we not learned anything from history?
I was out of action for a week, when I get back husar is echoing what I've been saying for 3 months.
The hell did I miss?
Seamus Fermanagh
10-10-2016, 18:16
Three cheers for the balkanization of Europe!
I was out of action for a week, when I get back husar is echoing what I've been saying for 3 months.
The hell did I miss?
Except that you supported the Brexit and for me it is basically the same thing...
Sarmatian
10-04-2017, 17:30
Opinions on new developments?
We have a thread for this, no need to clutter Brexit thread.
Still against more balkanization. They can have some regional stuff in the EU superstate, but they cannot just leave their nation state until it is absorbed/replaced/turned into a larger province by the EU. Even if the Spanish government made a mistake in beating people, that does not give Catalonia the right to secede.
It might be helpful if the EU were to negotiate, as a neutral player, in order to find a way for them to be friends again without Catalonia getting to be greedy about its money. Wealth concentration is nothing to be proud of, it merely means you raised the cost of living to the point all poor people had to move out. To then say you want to secede because you don't want to pay for the poorer regions is just greedy and injust.
The whole "but they're killing our culture!" is quite funny when you have at least 23 Mc Donald's in your city (https://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=mcdonalds&find_loc=barcelona)...
Kagemusha
10-04-2017, 18:51
Still against more balkanization. They can have some regional stuff in the EU superstate, but they cannot just leave their nation state until it is absorbed/replaced/turned into a larger province by the EU. Even if the Spanish government made a mistake in beating people, that does not give Catalonia the right to secede.
It might be helpful if the EU were to negotiate, as a neutral player, in order to find a way for them to be friends again without Catalonia getting to be greedy about its money. Wealth concentration is nothing to be proud of, it merely means you raised the cost of living to the point all poor people had to move out. To then say you want to secede because you don't want to pay for the poorer regions is just greedy and injust.
The whole "but they're killing our culture!" is quite funny when you have at least 23 Mc Donald's in your city (https://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=mcdonalds&find_loc=barcelona)...
I have to disagree with you on this. If Catalonians dont want to be part of Spain, why should they be? More i think about events such as Catalonia, Scotland and for example Kurdistan, more i start to ask myself, if people who hail from long standing federal states like US or Germany or in a bit different sense the United Kingdom, can they really value self determination of a smaller group of people that wants to self govern?
This same thing might be also issue with EU. Lets say a Catalonian in EU is represented by Spanish government that he does not relate to as his own representative. Would it be a big surprise if he might easily become anti EU as he lacks the empowerment even at National level. In my opinion Balkanisation is not about new countries emerging from people who do not identify themselves as part of their current countries, but from creating federal states from peoples that are reluctant at being part of a single entity. In matter of fact as EU´s main problem is that the level of democracy is not acceptable with European parliament only being an advisory body. It might be easier for it becoming an representative body, if the federal states among EU would be dismantled. Funny idea?
Seamus Fermanagh
10-04-2017, 18:53
Still against more balkanization....The whole "but they're killing our culture!" is quite funny when you have at least 23 Mc Donald's in your city (https://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=mcdonalds&find_loc=barcelona)...
If that is your standard for no longer being able to assert your own cultural identity, then McDonalds (http://corporate.mcdonalds.com/mcd/country/map.html) has already won, so perhaps your superstate should be The Golden Arches.
Who knew world government would end up thus...
:creep:
I have to disagree with you on this. If Catalonians dont want to be part of Spain, why should they be? More i think about events such as Catalonia, Scotland and for example Kurdistan, more i start to ask myself, if people who hail from long standing federal states like US or Germany or in a bit different sense the United Kingdom, can they really value self determination of a smaller group of people that wants to self govern?
This same thing might be also issue with EU. Lets say a Catalonian in EU is represented by Spanish government that he does not relate to as his own representative. Would it be a big surprise if he might easily become anti EU as he lacks the empowerment even at National level. In my opinion Balkanisation is not about new countries emerging from people who do not identify themselves as part of their current countries, but from creating federal states from peoples that are reluctant at being part of a single entity. In matter of fact as EU´s main problem is that the level of democracy is not acceptable with European parliament only being an advisory body. It might be easier for it becoming an representative body, if the federal states among EU would be dismantled. Funny idea?
It's just a slippery slope for all federal nations. What if Britanny, Flanders, South Tirol, Bavaria, Moravia, the Italian City-States, etc... all decide to leave their host countries just because. Balkanisation I feel is an alright idea when there is too much ethnic strife and tension that no matter what the federal government does it will always be wrong by multiple other groups. The Catalans are not an oppressed people, while I feel the police crack down was foolish and was too close to Franco's old methods it wasn't on such a scale that it has negated Spains right to rule there. If the EU representative only acted against ones interests then so be it but that'd be easier accommodated by a representative of a sort for such semi-autonomous regions.
Kurdistan is a different nut altogether, they've been actively oppressed, they have a different culture and language, and they've had a military that's protected their region when the federal force was unable to which would be a failure of the contract of the Iraqi government to Kurdistan to provide safety for its people.
The EU might initially prefer the break up of all the federal government but then it'd just turn into a mini UN with so many voices that it'd be even less able to do anything but with an even greater byzantine administrative system that 'd make it more akin to the Holy Roman Empire with its 200 some 'nations'
The famous EEC/EU clip from Yes, Minister seems appropriate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVYqB0uTKlE
If not, why are we pressing for an increase in membership?
Well for the same reason, it's just like the United Nations in fact. The more members it has, the more arguments it can stir up, the more futile and impotent it becomes.
Kagemusha
10-04-2017, 19:32
It's just a slippery slope for all federal nations. What if Britanny, Flanders, South Tirol, Bavaria, Moravia, the Italian City-States, etc... all decide to leave their host countries just because. Balkanisation I feel is an alright idea when there is too much ethnic strife and tension that no matter what the federal government does it will always be wrong by multiple other groups. The Catalans are not an oppressed people, while I feel the police crack down was foolish and was too close to Franco's old methods it wasn't on such a scale that it has negated Spains right to rule there. If the EU representative only acted against ones interests then so be it but that'd be easier accommodated by a representative of a sort for such semi-autonomous regions.
I agree that such can become very hazardous, though at least around these parts governing is being driven more and more closer to the people. From province or region government to more independent municipality governing. Of course my understanding when it comes to state level and federal level government is non existant as ive never lived in a federal state. If EU wants to become a Federal state or a "superstate". The greatest hurdle are the large federal states within EU, whom wield extraordinary power in the council of ministers and even neglect EU if it suites their goals.
Can i ask how is state level affairs handled in US. Does California or lets say Texas have extraordinary power at the federal level of decision making?
Kurdistan is a different nut altogether, they've been actively oppressed, they have a different culture and language, and they've had a military that's protected their region when the federal force was unable to which would be a failure of the contract of the Iraqi government to Kurdistan to provide safety for its people.
The EU might initially prefer the break up of all the federal government but then it'd just turn into a mini UN with so many voices that it'd be even less able to do anything but with an even greater byzantine administrative system that 'd make it more akin to the Holy Roman Empire with its 200 some 'nations'
The famous EEC/EU clip from Yes, Minister seems appropriate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVYqB0uTKlE
Well you have more then 50 states. Why not 200 hundred for EU? (I have to point out that i am being rather lighthearted about this issue and just fooling around with this idea.)
I have to disagree with you on this. If Catalonians dont want to be part of Spain, why should they be?
Because we can't always get what we want. Some people don't want to be unemployed or hungry and we also don't give them jobs and food just like that. the Catalans wouldn't just gain something, they would also take something away from the rest of Spain without ever asking the rest of Spain. They're obviously creating more divisions.
If that is your standard for no longer being able to assert your own cultural identity, then McDonalds (http://corporate.mcdonalds.com/mcd/country/map.html) has already won, so perhaps your superstate should be The Golden Arches.
Who knew world government would end up thus...
Yeah, well, we all know who won the Cold War.
These petty disputes are just outdated matters that concern people who still don't know their real corporate overlords because they've fallen for the neoliberal model of slavery. :drama2:
Strike For The South
10-05-2017, 12:11
These regions make the assumption they will stay rich after they cut themselves loose. This is a faulty assumption.
Most obvious with Scotland but it applies here (and to Texas).
These regions make the assumption they will stay rich after they cut themselves loose. This is a faulty assumption.
Oh? And why would that be a faulty assumption. If becomming richer is the motive for seperation it's questionable, but alas Madrid as kind enough to give them a better one. But they will get richer it's where the tourism is. Barcelona alone is good for millions of tourists but there are also dozens of coastal towns (avoid if you are older than 25, if you aren't why are you reading this right now, you haven't been on vacation if you never woke up naked on the beach with sunburned privaes, and have no idea why)
Gilrandir
10-05-2017, 15:19
These regions make the assumption they will stay rich after they cut themselves loose. This is a faulty assumption.
In case of Slovakia, Croatia, Slovenia, Finland, Norway it didn't turn out to be faulty.
they would also take something away from the rest of Spain without ever asking the rest of Spain
What, exactly?
In case of Slovakia, Croatia, Slovenia, Finland, Norway it didn't turn out to be faulty.
Were they all the richest region in the country before they gained independence? When did they gain independence and from whom?
I'd say a region that is at the bottom end of the country it is in has better chances for improvement than one that is already at the top.
Smaller countries also tend to require a niche, I'm not sure whether beaches make for a good niche if Spain and Greece have similar beaches but with all the cost savings and convenience that come with being inside the EU...
What, exactly?
Taxes, "friends", land and glory of course.
Taxes [and] land
And these belong to the rest of Spain why exactly?
And these belong to the rest of Spain why exactly?
Because Catalonia was riding on the Spanish wave the entire time. Spanish soldiers fought and bled to enrich the entire country. Spanish politicians negotiated the EU entry that Catalonia also profited from. The Catalans can speak Spanish now, which makes them able to communicate much better given that hardly anyone outside Catalonia wants to learn Catalan. And because the Catalans are doing well at the expense of the rest of Spain.
Here's also a somewhat older overview of the economic consequences: http://www.businessinsider.de/economics-of-catalan-secession-from-spain-2016-2?op=1&r=US&IR=T
Here's the relevant part about Catalonia profiting off of Spain:
A Spanish commercial war would follow to take Catalonia out of the Spanish market, where Catalan goods and services are sold up to €39 billion ($51 billion), 18.5% of Catalan GDP. Since even newly independent countries are not prone to turn the other cheek to their would-be ruffians, those Spanish moves would surely provoke akin Catalan measures to wipe Spain off the Catalan market, where Spanish goods and services are sold up to €27 billion ($36 billion), 3,1% of Spanish GDP.
Yes, Spain also gains €16 billion in taxes, but it's only normal that those who make more money pay higher taxes, even if the tax rate is a flat percentage.
Keep this in mind: http://www.euronews.com/2017/09/14/jean-claude-juncker-i-would-respect-catalonia-yes-vote
What is really interesting is this article: http://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/spanish-government-cuts-infrastructure-investment-by-50-in-catalonia-and-only-25-in-the-rest-of-spain
It seems very suspect without knowing the state of the infrastructure in Catalonia and Spain and how high the investments were in the first place, but I couldn't find any numbers about infrastructure investments per Spanish region. The Catalan chamber of commerce is hardly an unbiased source either. :shrug:
If the solution to every distribution problem is independence though, the West Germans need to vote about independence from the former DDR because we're all still paying to build it up and there are plenty of people who dislike that... #returnthewall
Kagemusha
10-05-2017, 17:26
If the solution to every distribution problem is independence though, the West Germans need to vote about independence from the former DDR because we're all still paying to build it up and there are plenty of people who dislike that... #returnthewall
Nope you need to be torn into 16 states, which then will loose your German identity and start voting in EURO parliament based on their political leaning, rather then some strange German interest..:devil:
Nope you need to be torn into 16 states, which then will loose your German identity and start voting in EURO parliament based on their political leaning, rather then some strange German interest..:devil:
16 isn't even enough: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_in_the_Holy_Roman_Empire#/media/File:Mitteleuropa_zur_Zeit_der_Staufer.svg
Update:
https://www.ksl.com/?nid=151&sid=46052463&title=the-latest-reports-say-banco-sabadell-to-relocate
Vida Nueva (New Life) internet publication said the pope told Spain's new ambassador to the Vatican, Gerardo Bugallo, that the Holy See is against all self-determination moves that are outside decolonization processes.
In the meeting Monday, the pope told Bugallo that the Vatican also rejected attitudes that do not respect the law.
And now the one you probably care more about:
Spanish media reports say executives of Banco Sabadell, one of Catalonia's largest banks and Spain's fifth in terms of volume of assets, have agreed to relocate the bank's base outside of the troubled Catalonia region.
Banco Sabadell's registration will be moved to the eastern city of Alicante, but the physical headquarters will remain in the Catalan regional capital, Barcelona, according to the Spanish private news agency Europa Press.
Citing Sabadell sources, Europa Press said the reason for the move was to protect the interests of the banks' customers and ensure legal protection under the umbrella of the European Central Bank as Catalonia's mull an independence declaration.
This seems like a bureaucratic move for now (unless this actually affects where they pay taxes etc., if they pay any taxes in the first place), but it could affect the Catalonian business in the long term, especially if it ends up outside the EU and the banks lose a lot of business in Catalonia.
https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-10-05/spains-rivals-dig-catalonia-crisis-hits-banks
International credit rating agency Standard and Poor's announced it may downgrade the sovereign debt rating of Catalonia in the next three months.
"We see a risk that this escalation may damage the coordination and communication between the two governments, which is essential to Catalonia's ability to service its debt on time and in full," it said.
Because Catalonia was riding on the Spanish wave the entire time. Spanish soldiers fought and bled to enrich the entire country. Spanish politicians negotiated the EU entry that Catalonia also profited from.
As Spain has benefited from Catalonia the entire time. Some of those soldiers were Catalan; those Spanish politicians would have acted with a democratic mandate in part given to them by Catalans, and some of them may have been Catalans themselves.
If there is an imbalance in contributions, you can demand reimbursement.
Here's the relevant part about Catalonia profiting off of Spain:
That part shows trade.
That part shows trade.
A trade deficit of 12 billion Euros on the Spanish side, yes.
Also updated the above post since I didn't want to double post.
A trade deficit of 12 billion Euros on the Spanish side, yes.
Yes, and that sounds like a problem for the rest of Spain, not Catalonia.
Montmorency
10-05-2017, 18:41
As Spain has benefited from Catalonia the entire time. Some of those soldiers were Catalan; those Spanish politicians would have acted with a democratic mandate in part given to them by Catalans, and some of them may have been Catalans themselves.
If there is an imbalance in contributions, you can demand reimbursement.
You must realize this is also an argument for monetary reparations to former colonized peoples by the developed world.
Yes, and that sounds like a problem for the rest of Spain, not Catalonia.
Why doesn't Spain want to get rid of Catalonia then? :dizzy2:
Not sure what you're trying to argue here.
I might as well argue that getting beaten by the Spanish police is entirely a problem of the Catalans, not the Spanish or the EU, but then again I'm not such an ass. Note that while I argued before that the intervention was justified in general, I didn't mean breaking individual peoples' noses for no reason.
You must realize this is also an argument for monetary reparations to former colonized peoples by the developed world.
I don't quite see what you are getting at. In this context, the reimbursements would be to compensate for Spain's investments in Catalonia that it can no longer expect be able reap rewards from to the same extent due to Catalonia departing. The closest colonial parallel would the former colonies asking for reimbursement from an empire that disowned them after leeching on their resources. If you are the one asking for independence, it is meaningless to set conditions for your independence. What you could have done, would be to ask for reimbursement in order to stay in the empire and not demand independence.
Not sure what you're trying to argue here.
That Catalonia doesn't owe anything to Spain because of the trade balance, naturally; unless Spain has privileged Catalonia somehow on the markets.
That Catalonia doesn't owe anything to Spain because of the trade balance, naturally; unless Spain has privileged Catalonia somehow on the markets.
And Spain doesn't owe Catalonia independence.
Montmorency
10-05-2017, 20:10
I don't quite see what you are getting at. In this context, the reimbursements would be to compensate for Spain's investments in Catalonia that it can no longer expect be able reap rewards from to the same extent due to Catalonia departing. The closest colonial parallel would the former colonies asking for reimbursement from an empire that disowned them after leeching on their resources. If you are the one asking for independence, it is meaningless to set conditions for your independence. What you could have done, would be to ask for reimbursement in order to stay in the empire and not demand independence.
Why does independence in itself clear that "balance"?
And Spain doesn't owe Catalonia independence.
Like Catalonia doesn't owe Spain remaining a part of the country, I'd think.
Why does independence in itself clear that "balance"?
It doesn't.
This is about the agent wanting change giving what they owe so that they can claim that they do not owe the other party anything any more and can go ahead with the change in good conscience.
If you are the one being owed, then you are on the other side of the equation and the situation is reversed. To declare independence in good conscience, you don't need to give anything; it's the other side that needs to pay up before they can go ahead with a change that you do not want.
Montmorency
10-05-2017, 20:44
Like Catalonia doesn't owe Spain not declaring independence, I'd think.
So it's a question of power. As always?
If you are the one being owed, then you are on the other side of the equation and the situation is reversed.
This implies that there is a way to account for "what is owed", in which case it can be applied to any international relationship.
And "other side" implies that the parties have already been determined, but this is one of the things still under dispute.
So it's a question of power. As always?
I'd think so. Power, and its application or absence thereof.
This implies that there is a way to account for "what is owed", in which case it can be applied to any international relationship.
That's ultimately a matter of definition. The main point is that if it is considered that Catalonia owes something to the rest of Spain, it could give that to the rest of Spain, if possible (and if it is not possible for Catalonia to give what it is considered owing, then you can argue that it is not fair to have this impossible repayment as a precondition for Catalonia's independence).
Ultimately, the core of this argument is about what could be done in terms of repayment, not what should be done. It doesn't lead to the conclusion that former colonial powers should pay their former colonies; it's about Catalonia clearing its name, so to speak.
And "other side" implies that the parties have already been determined, but this is one of the things still under dispute.
Not sure what you are thinking of here.
Montmorency
10-05-2017, 21:20
That's ultimately a matter of definition. The main point is that if it is considered that Catalonia owes something to the rest of Spain, it could give that to the rest of Spain, if possible (and if it is not possible for Catalonia to give what it is considered owing, then you can argue that it is not fair to have this impossible repayment as a precondition for Catalonia's independence).
Ultimately, the core of this argument is about what could be done in terms of repayment, not what should be done. It doesn't lead to the conclusion that former colonial powers should pay their former colonies; it's about Catalonia clearing its name, so to speak.
If it's a matter of "could", not "should", then isn't it irrelevant to the matter?
Not sure what you are thinking of here.
Putting cart before horse, taking Catalonian agency for granted in musing a transaction between partners.
If it's a matter of "could", not "should", then isn't it irrelevant to the matter?
Husar's argument seemed to be that Catalonia cannot declare independence unilaterally because it owes Spain so much. If this is your objection, you could just require that Catalonia should repay what it owes at some point, as far as it able to (and if Spain would not accept this repayment out of principle because it does not recognise Catalonia's independence, then that would be Spain's issue).
Putting cart before horse, taking Catalonian agency for granted in musing a transaction between partners.
Again I am afraid I am a bit confused. Are you questioning the concept of 'Catalan agency' in a different manner than you would question e.g. the concept of 'Spanish agency'?
Montmorency
10-05-2017, 23:10
Husar's argument seemed to be that Catalonia cannot declare independence unilaterally because it owes Spain so much. If this is your objection, you could just require that Catalonia should repay what it owes at some point, as far as it able to (and if Spain would not accept this repayment out of principle because it does not recognise Catalonia's independence, then that would be Spain's issue).
I thought he was disputing that contemporary negative net revenue outlays between Catalonia and the rest of Spain justified Catalonian separatism.
Again I am afraid I am a bit confused. Are you questioning the concept of 'Catalan agency' in a different manner than you would question e.g. the concept of 'Spanish agency'?
Just that you need equal partners to make that kind of settlement. Let's abstractly say that a unilateral offer to sweeten the separation of parties isn't valid if a potential party rejects the existence or legitimacy of such a negotiation.
I thought he was disputing that contemporary negative net revenue outlays between Catalonia and the rest of Spain justified Catalonian separatism.
Yes, he was, because that is one reason cited by the Catalans.
Seamus Fermanagh
10-06-2017, 01:12
As Spain has benefited from Catalonia the entire time. Some of those soldiers were Catalan....
Indeed...
19905
Tough javelin infantry
Does it all matter, Spain profitted yes, always has. But economy stopped being important when Madrid decided to go all berserk on Catalonians. Madrid's only option is more violence and that will only make things worse for Madrid. They are idiots and have a big problem, unlike Catalonia the rest of Spain isn't self-sufficient. Eurocrats also have - problem, yet another, champagne on that! Another axe-cut in the tree, pieces in our time
rory_20_uk
10-06-2017, 09:52
A large area voted overwhelmingly to leave. They should be allowed to leave. I imagine that Sudan did not constitutionally have the ability to let South Sudan leave, and yet they did. South Sudan is also in a much worse financial position yet they'd rather freedom. Their choice.
~:smoking:
Pannonian
10-06-2017, 10:11
A large area voted overwhelmingly to leave. They should be allowed to leave. I imagine that Sudan did not constitutionally have the ability to let South Sudan leave, and yet they did. South Sudan is also in a much worse financial position yet they'd rather freedom. Their choice.
~:smoking:
It's then up to the Catalans to make their independence real. If they can't, there's no should. Self determination consists of two components.
rory_20_uk
10-06-2017, 12:13
It's then up to the Catalans to make their independence real. If they can't, there's no should. Self determination consists of two components.
Sure. But then the rest of Spain should not be undermining them by sending in troops and making threats.
~:smoking:
Sure. But then the rest of Spain should not be undermining them by sending in troops and making threats.
~:smoking:
Sure, but then they shouldn't be undermining Spain by seceding.
Gilrandir
10-06-2017, 13:06
Were they all the richest region in the country before they gained independence?
Slovenia was. I believe Croatia came next in its economic development.
When did they gain independence and from whom?
Do I have to lecture you on history? Google it.
I'd say a region that is at the bottom end of the country it is in has better chances for improvement than one that is already at the top.
First of all, this is an arbitrary statement that needs statistical substantiation.
Second of all, since they were different in their development and now they are (more or less) prosperous countries, the starting point doesn't seem to matter.
rory_20_uk
10-06-2017, 13:28
Sure, but then they shouldn't be undermining Spain by seceding.
So... they are free to choose what they want as long as they choose to preserve the stats quo.
~:smoking:
Pannonian
10-06-2017, 13:31
Sure. But then the rest of Spain should not be undermining them by sending in troops and making threats.
~:smoking:
If their independence has any substance, they should be able to resist or sidestep any such moves. They opted not to sidestep by unilaterally declaring independence without outside or Spanish support. If they can't then resist Spanish action, what practical worth is their declared independence?
Slovenia was. I believe Croatia came next in its economic development.
Do I have to lecture you on history? Google it.
First of all, this is an arbitrary statement that needs statistical substantiation.
Second of all, since they were different in their development and now they are (more or less) prosperous countries, the starting point doesn't seem to matter.
So... they are free to choose what they want as long as they choose to preserve the stats quo.
~:smoking:
You're right, if they secede the world will be a better place.
Gilrandir
10-06-2017, 14:38
You're right, if they secede the world will be a better place.
And if they don't it wouldn't?
They opted not to sidestep by unilaterally declaring independence without outside or Spanish support.
Unilaterally, but not unanimously. This might matter if it comes to popular resistance.
Pannonian
10-06-2017, 15:07
And if they don't it wouldn't?
Unilaterally, but not unanimously. This might matter if it comes to popular resistance.
Nothing is ever unanimous. But it's in their own hands, rather than blaming others like rory likes to do (ie. blaming the Spanish for intervening whilst blaming the EU for not intervening).
And if they don't it wouldn't?
I was trying to secede from this thread because looking for your statistics prevents me from getting actually important work done.
Can't you just let me go? All I want is some self-determination regarding my being part of this thread...
Just that you need equal partners to make that kind of settlement. Let's abstractly say that a unilateral offer to sweeten the separation of parties isn't valid if a potential party rejects the existence or legitimacy of such a negotiation.
Spain could formally interpret the offer as coming from an autonomous region rather than an independent country.
At any rate, the point was not to argue that a reimbursement was a probable outcome. The context was the 'fairness' of Catalonia seceding, not what Catalonia could do to get Spain to recognise its independence.
Offer without either side losing face should be easy to make. Staying part of the kingdom as a seperate nation?
We know what will happened. Happened before. Pretty villages burn nicely...
https://youtu.be/QqCmFRvO8fQ
https://youtu.be/2_dYaAtHwws
Gilrandir
10-07-2017, 19:18
I was trying to secede from this thread because looking for your statistics prevents me from getting actually important work done.
Can't you just let me go? All I want is some self-determination regarding my being part of this thread...
I like it when YOU have to prove your point with MY statistics.
I like it when YOU have to prove your point with MY statistics.
That was for the generic point, which was rather superfluous in hindsight, given that S&P wants to downgrade Catalonia specifically in case of independence anyway. https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?152146-Catalonia&p=2053761440&viewfull=1#post2053761440
Not to forget that the business insider article two posts before that predicts very bad economic times for the entire region if they get independence without EU membership. So it was kind of a superfluous distraction trying to make a generic point about how well independence works economically.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-08-2017, 14:58
If a people desire freedom you have two options:
1. Give it to them.
2. Violently suppress the separatists.
Spain has opted for option 2 prematurely, the referendum turnout was low, below 50%, and it's by no means clear that a majority of people in Catalonia want Independence. The low turnout gave Spain some wiggle room, but by sending in paramilitaries to drag people out of polling stations they lost that wiggle room.
An Independent Catalan Republic is now almost inevitable within five years.
That's extremely awkward for the EU in the middle of Brexit because the number and size of the EU states might not be the same in twelve months and if Spain can't hold onto Catalonia it can't claim Gibraltar.
If a people desire freedom
That's not even very clear. From previous polls, the people of Catalonia are very divided on that and you have to consider that the vast majority of the Stay-camp had no reason to attend a referendum that was illegal anyway in their eyes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence#Public_opinion
http://www.politico.eu/article/catalonia-independence-spain-support-for-drops-poll/
Apparently there is also the option to make Spain a federal state. The full independence only seems to be favoured by 34.7% of Catalans according to their own public research.
Another question that came to mind is why do many countries want a 2/3rd majority or thereabouts for constitutional changes, but the enormous changes brought about by joining or leaving a union of any kind only require a 51% majority? IMO even joining or leaving the EU should be at least as big a deal as changing the constitution of a country. Perhaps "my beloved" EU would be smaller and/or less developed today if that were the case, but also perhaps more stable and united. :shrug:
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-08-2017, 15:59
That's not even very clear.
I agree, which you would know if you'd read more than the first two sentences of my post.
Apparently there is also the option to make Spain a federal state. The full independence only seems to be favoured by 34.7% of Catalans according to their own public research.
Spain is already quasi-Federal - the problem here is that, by and large, only those wanting independence seem politically active on this issue. (90% in favour on a, what, 43% turnout? About 35% isn't it?
Another question that came to mind is why do many countries want a 2/3rd majority or thereabouts for constitutional changes, but the enormous changes brought about by joining or leaving a union of any kind only require a 51% majority? IMO even joining or leaving the EU should be at least as big a deal as changing the constitution of a country. Perhaps "my beloved" EU would be smaller and/or less developed today if that were the case, but also perhaps more stable and united. :shrug:
Excellent question - with joining the EU I'm sure the answer is that very few countries would actually join.
This crisis is extremely serious for the Spanish Government, if they cannot hold onto Catalonia then the Basques will agitate for Independence, and if they don't get a referendum ETA may start back up. Valencia might go after that and from there things could snowball until "Spain" is just Castille-Leon.
I agree, which you would know if you'd read more than the first two sentences of my post.
That is actually true and I have no explanation other than something must have distracted me. :dizzy2:
Can't hurt to have some poll numbers though. :sweatdrop:
Spain is already quasi-Federal - the problem here is that, by and large, only those wanting independence seem politically active on this issue. (90% in favour on a, what, 43% turnout? About 35% isn't it?
38.7%
The difference between federal state and autonomous regions also seems a bit unclear to me. I'm assuming with the autonomous regions they all have slightly different rights whereas in a federal state, the rights of the smaller states would be outlined somewhere and be more standardized.
Excellent question - with joining the EU I'm sure the answer is that very few countries would actually join.
This crisis is extremely serious for the Spanish Government, if they cannot hold onto Catalonia then the Basques will agitate for Independence, and if they don't get a referendum ETA may start back up. Valencia might go after that and from there things could snowball until "Spain" is just Castille-Leon.
Isn't that a very sad thing to happen almost anywhere in Europe? I could swear someone said it's the nation state that brought peace to Europe, so are we looking at a return of war to Europe?
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-08-2017, 16:49
That is actually true and I have no explanation other than something must have distracted me. :dizzy2:
Can't hurt to have some poll numbers though. :sweatdrop:
It's OK, I've been busy writing a PhD and chatting to pretty girls on Discord (100% of this is true) and you've doubtless been subjected to a lot of waffle in my absence.
38.7%
That's probably within margin of error then, given we don't have the actual results yet. It's also higher than the percentage of the electorate that voted to leave the EU in the UK, which was 37.4718%. However, there the turnout was higher and the vote much more orderly which allows the Leave camp to argue that everyone who wanted to vote was able to.
The difference between federal state and autonomous regions also seems a bit unclear to me. I'm assuming with the autonomous regions they all have slightly different rights whereas in a federal state, the rights of the smaller states would be outlined somewhere and be more standardized.
I'm not sure there is a big difference - Catalonia has its own Parliament, President and Police Force already, a "Federal Spain" might hand them more law-making powers, perhaps, but that's probably about it.
Isn't that a very sad thing to happen almost anywhere in Europe? I could swear someone said it's the nation state that brought peace to Europe, so are we looking at a return of war to Europe?
I don't know - certainly Beskar (and other Europhiles) have argued for the effective abolition of Nation-States within the EU and plans are afoot to assign Britain's seats in the EU Parliament to cross-border Franco-German constituencies.
Sarmatian
10-08-2017, 17:26
From what I've been hearing from a friend who lives in Barcelona, the result is in no way representative - after the Spanish police confiscated the ballot papers, they were posted online and people were encourage to print their own. Additionally, they were told to go to a different polling station if their's was closed, which means the same person could have voted several times in different polling stations.
It would explain the results which in no way correlate to actual sentiments of the population, even if we take into account low turnout and the fact that those wanting to secede will be much more active.
The gist of it is:
1) Catalonia has no army
2) It has no support among major countries near or far
3) its economy would suffer a lot if out of Spain
4) it would take a lot of time to negotiate free trade agreements with neighbouring states, even if we assume all neighbouring states would be willing to do it
5) A lot of instability would naturally affect revenues from tourism
We can either assume the people organising this were complete idiots, OR that this was just a way for local politicians to score popularity points.
This is really NOT how you go about getting your own country. The only way this could have maybe possibly worked is if response from Madrid was highly disproportional, like tanks and gunships with Catalans taken into camps. A few select arrests and a few broken noses isn't going to cut it.
Gilrandir
10-08-2017, 18:24
I've been busy writing a PhD and chatting to pretty girls on Discord (100% of this is true)
100% of pretty girls? Are only pretty girls allowed to register?
I'm not sure there is a big difference - Catalonia has its own Parliament, President and Police Force already, a "Federal Spain" might hand them more law-making powers, perhaps, but that's probably about it.
From what I heard it is more about taxes being left in Catalonia than about anything else.
From what I've been hearing from a friend who lives in Barcelona...
Say what? Sarmatian relying on words of ONE EMOTIONALLY INVESTED person from within the whirlwind of events? Someone, pinch me.
Seamus Fermanagh
10-08-2017, 18:49
100% of pretty girls? Are only pretty girls allowed to register? ... Someone, pinch me.
~D
And PVH, as the determinant of 'pretty' based on his own sense of the aesthetic in that moment, is of correct of course. Though why he then chose to sow Discord among them I know not...
Seamus Fermanagh
10-08-2017, 18:51
From what I've been hearing from a friend who lives in Barcelona, the result is in no way representative - after the Spanish police confiscated the ballot papers, they were posted online and people were encourage to print their own. Additionally, they were told to go to a different polling station if their's was closed, which means the same person could have voted several times in different polling stations.
It would explain the results which in no way correlate to actual sentiments of the population, even if we take into account low turnout and the fact that those wanting to secede will be much more active.
The gist of it is:
1) Catalonia has no army
2) It has no support among major countries near or far
3) its economy would suffer a lot if out of Spain
4) it would take a lot of time to negotiate free trade agreements with neighbouring states, even if we assume all neighbouring states would be willing to do it
5) A lot of instability would naturally affect revenues from tourism
We can either assume the people organising this were complete idiots, OR that this was just a way for local politicians to score popularity points.
This is really NOT how you go about getting your own country. The only way this could have maybe possibly worked is if response from Madrid was highly disproportional, like tanks and gunships with Catalans taken into camps. A few select arrests and a few broken noses isn't going to cut it.
The first 4 points also obtained for my country, then non extent, as of 1 April 1775. The geography is quit different though.
Sarmatian
10-08-2017, 19:26
Say what? Sarmatian relying on words of ONE EMOTIONALLY INVESTED person from within the whirlwind of events? Someone, pinch me.
And I knew you're gonna go wild on this :). Does that make me clairvoyant? Hmm, something to think about...
Anyway, he's not emotionally invested, he's Serbian.
Secondly, it's a possible explanation of WHY there is such a huge discrepancy between multiple independent polls conducted in the last few years and actual referendum results.
The first 4 points also obtained for my country, then non extent, as of 1 April 1775. The geography is quit different though.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here - that the colonies had all that or that they didn't?
Gilrandir
10-08-2017, 19:40
And I knew you're gonna go wild on this :).
Not wild but increduluos.
Anyway, he's not emotionally invested, he's Serbian.
I don't believe an outsider can live somewhere long enough to be aware of the local sentiment and be indifferent to what is going on around him.
Gilrandir
10-08-2017, 19:42
~D
Ouch ~:mecry: ouch
And PVH, as the determinant of 'pretty' based on his own sense of the aesthetic in that moment, is of correct of course. Though why he then chose to sow Discord among them I know not...
AFAIK, Discord is about voice chatting. Not sure there is video, that's why I expressed my doubts.
Sarmatian
10-08-2017, 19:45
Not wild but increduluos.
I don't believe an outsider can live somewhere long enough to be aware of the local sentiment and be indifferent to what is going on around him.
Doesn't matter. I still love you.
Gilrandir
10-08-2017, 19:46
Doesn't matter. I still love you.
Can't claim the same after those pinches from Seamus.
Seamus Fermanagh
10-08-2017, 21:44
...I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here - that the colonies had all that or that they didn't?
I am saying that of the 5 points noted as problematic for an independent Catalonia, the first 4 also obtained at the start of the American independence movement in the 1760s. Tourism was not an industry in the New World at the time, so that one didn't matter. I think the first 4 arguably apply in all secessionist efforts. The move for independence happens in spite of those short term difficulties.
I did note that the strategic situation was different. Throwing off the yoke is at least a BIT easier if you are 3-6 weeks distant from the 'mother' country you seek to leave. Catalonia does not have that advantage.
Greyblades
10-08-2017, 23:17
Hoping for a Louis XVI to intervene and bankrupt himself saving them is a tad overly optimistic.
Hoping for a Louis XVI to intervene and bankrupt himself saving them is a tad overly optimistic.
I was about to say I'm not sure whether the French will provide the Catalans with gunpowder for their muskets this time around. ~D
Montmorency
10-09-2017, 03:34
Hundreds of thousands march for union (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/hundreds-thousands-rally-catalonia-secession-50353134).
Seamus Fermanagh
10-09-2017, 05:38
Hoping for a Louis XVI to intervene and bankrupt himself saving them is a tad overly optimistic.
And don't forget the Dutch bankers...
Besides, Louis' bankruptcy was only partially on our behalf. He ended up fighting what some would argue as the first truly global conflict against England by intervening.
Sarmatian
10-09-2017, 21:50
Doesn't matter. I still love you.
I take that back. Losing to Croatia? At home? This hurts me more than it hurts you.
Gilrandir
10-10-2017, 12:57
I take that back. Losing to Croatia? At home? This hurts me more than it hurts you.
Transferring your derision onto the one who is not responsible for what happened? + Bad call #2. Derailing the thread? After what has been specifically said by the powers-that-be?
As for the loss:
Some people here claim that it was a cunning ruse: if Ukraine made it to the World Cup held in Russia it would face a dilemma - to play on the enemy's territory (which shouldn't be done in view of what has happened and is still happening) or to refuse to go and get FIFA's hackles up. So losing the game has removed all those doubts and frustrations in one sweep.
Pannonian
10-10-2017, 13:47
Transferring your derision onto the one who is not responsible for what happened? + Bad call #2. Derailing the thread? After what has been specifically said by the powers-that-be?
As for the loss:
Some people here claim that it was a cunning ruse: if Ukraine made it to the World Cup held in Russia it would face a dilemma - to play on the enemy's territory (which shouldn't be done in view of what has happened and is still happening) or to refuse to go and get FIFA's hackles up. So losing the game has removed all those doubts and frustrations in one sweep.
This just shows that Ukrainians and Russians are two completely different breeds. Russians, if the world cup were played on Ukrainian soil, would have seen this as an opportunity to invade foreign territory and smash up their cafes (cf. France 2016). Extra bragging points if they get the chance to confront the (in)famed English too.
Gilrandir
10-10-2017, 16:40
This just shows that Ukrainians and Russians are two completely different breeds. Russians, if the world cup were played on Ukrainian soil, would have seen this as an opportunity to invade foreign territory and smash up their cafes (cf. France 2016). Extra bragging points if they get the chance to confront the (in)famed English too.
Not denying the first statement I would like to mention that the theory I offered was no more than a speculation which aims to justify the defeat. It would still be an awkward situation if Ukraine won, though. Something like Eurovision 2017.
Looks like Puigdemont didn't dare declar independence yet. After 20 minutes of teasing and a seeming intensification towards a declaration, he said he will delay any declaration because there wasn't enough dialogue yet in Catalonia and Spain and because the international community requested more dialogue.
So I guess they're not ready to go full frontal against Spain and don't quite see the international support that they would need to succeed.
Is that a first step towards a withdrawal without losing face? Actual request for more dialogue or really just a delay of an inevitable declatration of independence?
IMO the latter seems rather unlikely, it looks more as though they just didn't get anyone to back them but less than half the local population, so they can easily foresee a desaster if they unilaterally try anything. An internationally observed dialogue with Madrid however, may give them a chance to get more independence as they may have more sympathies for that now given that the world saw Spanish policemen beat Catalans. Of course they had to find some reason to not declare independence as per their own law/promise...
A successful negotiation about the region's rights would seem to be the best outcome to me and outside of whining about taxes (which was also in the speech) I think it's only fair for Spain to respect their local traditions etc.
Sarmatian
10-11-2017, 16:15
Spanish government demands Catalonia leader clarify independence declaration (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/10/11/spanish-government-demands-catalonia-leader-clarify-independence-declaration.html)
I think I'd explain it to Rajoy this way - if you wake up after spending the night with a girl for the first time, and you have to ask her are you a still virgin, you probably are.
In this case, it's the other way around - if you have to ask whether they declared independence, they probably didn't.
On a serious note, nice move by Rajoy. Catalan government can say "yes", Spain invokes article 155 of the constitution, Catalan government gets disbanded and leaders arrested. If they say "no", the matter is settled and Catalan leaders kiss their political careers goodbye. Their best bet at this moment is to stay silent and ask for a dialogue, hoping that Madrid will give them a face-saving way out of this mess.
I'm not sure Madrid will be that accommodating.
Gilrandir
10-13-2017, 10:49
A possible solution?
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-10-12/italy-knows-how-to-solve-catalonia-s-problem
Seamus Fermanagh
10-13-2017, 18:33
A possible solution?
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-10-12/italy-knows-how-to-solve-catalonia-s-problem
I suspect that something along those lines is exactly what Spain/Catalonia will end up with. But it will have to be done "second track" as the official players are now trapped by their own public stances.
Gilrandir
10-21-2017, 15:34
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-catalonia-election/spain-plans-new-elections-in-catalonia-to-end-independence-bid-opposition-idUSKBN1CP0SB
Wouldn't it sway those Catalonians who are still in doubt to swell the independence camp?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-catalonia-election/spain-plans-new-elections-in-catalonia-to-end-independence-bid-opposition-idUSKBN1CP0SB
Wouldn't it sway those Catalonians who are still in doubt to swell the independence camp?
Somewhere I read that the secessionists only gained more seats in the Catalan government because the weird electoral system gave them more seats despite not getting a corresponding popular vote. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_regional_election,_2015
When I take the 135 seats and multiply it with 0.396 for the 39.6% they (JxSi) got of the popular vote, I get 53.46 seats, and yet they somehow have 62 seats. It might be explained due to parties falling below the minimum threshold, but then again that should lead to all parties having more seats than their share of the vote, yet the CUP should have 135 x 0.082 = 11.07 seats and has effectively only 10.
I'm not aware of their policies and coalitions, but it would seem quite weird for a party that is strongly overrepresented in parliament to take a very flawed referendum and make a very important choice based on that, claiming to represent the will of the people. As I said before, a secession would seem even vastly more important than a constitutional change, and should not be declared lightly. A lot of countries make constitutional changes very hard, why not decisions that potentially affect the country even more?
Gilrandir
10-21-2017, 20:17
When I take the 135 seats and multiply it with 0.396 for the 39.6% they (JxSi) got of the popular vote, I get 53.46 seats, and yet they somehow have 62 seats. It might be explained due to parties falling below the minimum threshold, but then again that should lead to all parties having more seats than their share of the vote, yet the CUP should have 135 x 0.082 = 11.07 seats and has effectively only 10.
It can be explained by the mixed electoral system. Some candidates are party members but they are elected as individuals in the majority constituencies. At least it is so in Ukraine.
It can be explained by the mixed electoral system. Some candidates are party members but they are elected as individuals in the majority constituencies. At least it is so in Ukraine.
I think it was like that in Germany, but the constitutional court didn't like that and said it makes the second vote useless in many cases. The fix for now seems to be that they just add members to the parliament until the proportional representation as given by the second party vote is fulfilled. And since the CDU apparently got a whole lot of first votes in the last election, out parliament will become very bloated now. Still better than not having the proportional representation though IMO.
Montmorency
10-22-2017, 03:07
Spanish government plans (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/21/world/europe/spain-catalonia-mariano-rajoy.html?referer=https://news.google.com/) to remove Catalonian government, schedule new elections, and in the meantime implement direct rule by Madrid.
Hundreds of thousands march for (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJX5cLFb5cQ) - well, if not for independence, then at least against Madrid's proposed corrective measures.
Gilrandir
10-22-2017, 06:09
Hundreds of thousands march for (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJX5cLFb5cQ) - well, if not for independence, then at least against Madrid's proposed corrective measures.
And who knows how thin is the line between "against corrective mesures" and "for independence".
Gilrandir
10-27-2017, 15:09
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/27/spanish-government-demands-special-powers-could-remove-catalan/
An irrevocable step?
*insert facepalm*
Now I actually agree that the Spanish government should have talked to them after they didn't declare independence the other time.
Trying to take over anyway was the escalating step now it seems. As to what will happen, I guess we'll see who has more soft-power or whether it will escalate to violence. :shrug:
Catalonia has now declared full independence.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41780116
Seamus Fermanagh
10-27-2017, 16:56
When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
Does any one have a link to a translation of their declaration? Media accounts all gloss things over and head straight to the "potential conflict" elements because that is the bent of journalism. Have the Catalans made such a declaration aside from publishing the results of a vote?
Kadagar_AV
10-28-2017, 05:56
Many people in Catalonia don't want their EU-share of blacks and arabs.
I understand them.
Yeah, this is why the nationalists insist that Catalonia will be admitted in the EU even after the independence. They are displeased at the taxes they pay, not the imaginary Islamic threat.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-28-2017, 10:27
Yeah, this is why the nationalists insist that Catalonia will be admitted in the EU even after the independence. They are displeased at the taxes they pay, not the imaginary Islamic threat.
Except that 50% of the taxes they get to keep, which is reasonable when you consider Spain controls the borders, the armed forces etc.
Removal of the Catalan Government after they signed a declaration of Independence was pretty much inevitable, especially after they refused to confirm if they had or hadn't actually done it.
Likewise, the Parliament was going to go after they went Secessionist.
With the majority of the pro-Independence leadership in prison it's likely the nationalists will not get a majority in the election in December, so unless the Catalans resort to armed insurrection (unlikely given they have nice comfortable lives) this will blow over in a few years. It might resurface in a generation, though.
Gilrandir
10-28-2017, 14:57
Puigdemont doesn't recognize his dismissal by Madrid. And? How will he insist on keeping his job? Lock himself in the office? I don't believe it is possible by non-violent ways.
Seamus Fermanagh
10-28-2017, 19:45
Puigdemont doesn't recognize his dismissal by Madrid. And? How will he insist on keeping his job? Lock himself in the office? I don't believe it is possible by non-violent ways.
Since Spain has already used force (though not outright warfare), I suspect you are likely correct.
Declaring your independence, of itself, does not require the extent government to agree to it.
Gilrandir
10-30-2017, 06:32
Spanish foreign minister admits Catalonia's autonomy may be widened. Madrid is ready to step back?
Seamus Fermanagh
10-30-2017, 22:52
Spanish foreign minister admits Catalonia's autonomy may be widened. Madrid is ready to step back?
AFTER taking such a hard line during the 'illegal plebiscite?" That kind of backtracking will only encourage those leaning die-hard to harden their position. Now, if they had done that BEFORE the plebiscite, very quietly, then that would have made for a very different result.
Gilrandir
10-31-2017, 06:14
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41811649
Puigdemont is already in Belgium and the Catalan parliament accepted its dissolvment. A couple of days after they solemnly promulgated independece! The Catalan leaders have no ability to foresee the consequences of what they do and have no guts to see it through. A pathetic fizzling out of what has started with such a pomp.
Seamus Fermanagh
10-31-2017, 17:14
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41811649
Puigdemont is already in Belgium and the Catalan parliament accepted its dissolvment. A couple of days after they solemnly promulgated independece! The Catalan leaders have no ability to foresee the consequences of what they do and have no guts to see it through. A pathetic fizzling out of what has started with such a pomp.
Pomp is easy. But the currency for independency is a steep risk "...our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor." If you are not willing to risk the loss, don't play the game.
Gilrandir
10-31-2017, 17:36
Pomp is easy. But the currency for independency is a steep risk "...our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor." If you are not willing to risk the loss, don't play the game.
They started the game but evidently are not ready to run the risk of losing.
John Smith
10-31-2017, 20:09
20th December La Liga is where the real showdown will begin.
Sarmatian
11-01-2017, 18:11
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41811649
The Catalan leaders have no ability to foresee the consequences of what they do and have no guts to see it through. A pathetic fizzling out of what has started with such a pomp.
Maybe they have more guts than you might think, in understanding that they failed and there's no hope for success. Insisting on stubborn resistance is often just about saving face (and sometimes political careers) of the high ups while the people are worse off.
Seamus Fermanagh
11-01-2017, 19:03
Maybe they have more guts than you might think, in understanding that they failed and there's no hope for success. Insisting on stubborn resistance is often just about saving face (and sometimes political careers) of the high ups while the people are worse off.
Fair point.
Gilrandir
11-02-2017, 14:14
Maybe they have more guts than you might think, in understanding that they failed and there's no hope for success. Insisting on stubborn resistance is often just about saving face (and sometimes political careers) of the high ups while the people are worse off.
Then they have no wits. One doesn't have to be Nobel prize winner to figure out how Madrid would have reacted. Did they know it? If yes and still went on with independence and after that backed out they have no guts. If no - they are plain stupid. Either conclusion doesn't reflect a great credit upon current Catalan leaders.
Seamus Fermanagh
11-02-2017, 15:19
Then they have no wits. One doesn't have to be Nobel prize winner to figure out how Madrid would have reacted. Did they know it? If yes and still went on with independence and after that backed out they have no guts. If no - they are plain stupid. Either conclusion doesn't reflect a great credit upon current Catalan leaders.
Have to agree there. Having talked over the issue with Madrid quietly -- and I assume at least a few 'deniable' emissaries did so -- and having thereby learned that there was no groundswell of support for secession, they should have known right then that it was a choice of 'lives, fortune, sacred honor' [call out the militia and fight for freedom as needed] or time to shut up and leave things be [inglorious, but their current lives aren't notably horrific].
I have to agree here that the Catalan leaders did not cover themselves with laurels here.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
11-02-2017, 15:19
Maybe they have more guts than you might think, in understanding that they failed and there's no hope for success. Insisting on stubborn resistance is often just about saving face (and sometimes political careers) of the high ups while the people are worse off.
You may be right, but that still makes them bad leaders.
It will be interesting to see if the former Catalan President returns to face the music, having seriously harmed his "country."
Gilrandir
11-02-2017, 16:37
Have to agree there. Having talked over the issue with Madrid quietly -- and I assume at least a few 'deniable' emissaries did so -- and having thereby learned that there was no groundswell of support for secession, they should have known right then that it was a choice of 'lives, fortune, sacred honor' [call out the militia and fight for freedom as needed] or time to shut up and leave things be [inglorious, but their current lives aren't notably horrific].
I have to agree here that the Catalan leaders did not cover themselves with laurels here.
"Groundswell support" may be also ambiguous. It depends on what the groundswell is ready for - to get together, wave flags and go home after that or stay on the square and put up resistance in case they are pressed into submission.
Seamus Fermanagh
11-02-2017, 18:02
"Groundswell support" may be also ambiguous. It depends on what the groundswell is ready for - to get together, wave flags and go home after that or stay on the square and put up resistance in case they are pressed into submission.
I meant support for the idea from Madrid, and was being a touch whimsical in word choice.
There was enough in Catalonia itself, over 40% of the population favoring independence. That was a higher percentage than existed in British Colonial America in 1775.
Gilrandir
11-03-2017, 16:38
There was enough in Catalonia itself, over 40% of the population favoring independence.
Again, "favoring" and "ready to put up a fight for it" make a difference.
And back to the topic: Catalan authorities mostly accepted the idea of new parliamentary elections in December. If the separatist forces get the majority again LEGALLY wouldn't it mean that the Catalans' mind is still set on secession? And wouldn't it become a signal for Madrid to start talking to them?
An update: some young Catalans are evidently ready to continue the struggle: https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/animals/protestors-block-highway-over-jailing-of-catalan-ministers/vp-AAuoHjA
Seamus Fermanagh
11-03-2017, 18:39
Again, "favoring" and "ready to put up a fight for it" make a difference.
Indeed, all the difference in the world.
Puigemont has been arrested in Brussel supposedly. Thia is going to be (even more) interesting, no matter your stance as everybody has a point
Trial of the century coming up, he can face 30 year
Seamus Fermanagh
11-05-2017, 16:25
Puigemont has been arrested in Brussel supposedly. Thia is going to be (even more) interesting, no matter your stance as everybody has a point
Trial of the century coming up, he can face 30 year
He should face trial. He led a rebellion against his lawful government. I assume EU practices make extradition rather simple.
Though his defense should be to refuse to acknowledge that a Spanish court has a right to try a Catalan for anything that did not occur in Spain.
He should face trial. He led a rebellion against his lawful government. I assume EU practices make extradition rather simple.
Though his defense should be to refuse to acknowledge that a Spanish court has a right to try a Catalan for anything that did not occur in Spain.
Of course he must be trialed, please do. Legally it's pretty straightforward it are the existional that will be raised that are interesting, there are many layers.
Gilrandir
12-23-2017, 20:14
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/21/europe/catalonia-election-results-independence-spain-intl/index.html
So, evidently, the Spanish government's plan to change Catalan authorities by means of elections didn't work. The stalemate will persist?
This has the potential to get somewhat ugly, that I know at least
Seamus Fermanagh
12-23-2017, 21:39
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/21/europe/catalonia-election-results-independence-spain-intl/index.html
So, evidently, the Spanish government's plan to change Catalan authorities by means of elections didn't work. The stalemate will persist?
Pro-independency factions retook control of their local assembly by a 70-65 margin. That 70, however, is comprised of three different pro-separatist parties each of whom does NOT share all major points of policy with it's fellow travelers. Clearly Spain's move to squelch the separatism with an early vote did not work. This vote is hardly a sign that Catalans are likely to go to the barricades to achieve that separation.
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