I will or will not buy Rome Total War

[Empress_Zoe]

Well, I wasn't buying Rome anyway. but i will buy VI if it is patched, otherwise forget it.

And anyone that says the 56 bug is not a showstopper, blah blah, ok, thats what you think, fair enough, but it really would annoy me having to watch a death clock every king i got, then cheat to make sure of a succesion.

Should be renamed Royal watch.

[Old Bald Guy]

For me, RTW, good or bad, has nothing to do with whether I buy it. I won't buy it, even if it's the greatest thing since pizza. I won't buy it because I said I wouldn't buy VI because of the lack of support, then bought it when people said how great it was, then the bugs started showing up. I was flamed for criticizing the lack of support, yet, sadly, I was right. (You can look it up.) I paid for something I didn't feel was worth paying for. I said I wouldn't buy something because of the lack of support for the previous, but I did. I won't again. Period.

To say I'm whining is pretty damn insulting. I PAID for a product that doesn't work as promised. I paid for it TWICE, and it still doesn't work AS PROMISED. If that's whining, then I need to look that word up again. Maybe it's indicative of the way the world is in these days of disposables: Don't worry about quality because the shelf life is about two days and attention spans are three minutes. Some of us expect to receive value for expenditure. That's whining?

I'm not going to stop buying games. I'm going to buy Half Life 2 the day it comes out, after I pay big bucks to upgrade my computer to play it, as I did when MTW didn't work with my video card. I know Valve will keep patching HL2 until it works as they promise. They have earned my loyalty, but more, they earned my money. CA has NOT.

I don't think many who are saying they'll buy RTW are still playing MTW. I am. Perhaps this is why those who are hopping around in anticipation like they have to pee. Maybe this is why I'm not, because I still have a lot of game to experience in MTW. Maybe this is why the bugs bug me more than they do those who aren't PLAYING the game anymore? It's easier to say the bugs aren't that big a thing when you aren't playing it.

I submit that those of us who are in rebellion care more about the game, and, believe it or not, CA. Most of us are older, have been around a longer time, and have seen what can happen to companies which do not support their games in the way the players think they should. Said companies go out of business CA is on the clock, now. If RTW receives the support that MTW, and from what I've heard, STW received, there may not be another. Is that what you want??? Are you risking someday having to say, "they should have listened"?

I agree with those who have said this thread sends the wrong message.

OBG>>putting away the soapbox, signing off, and firing up MTW. Dem English is going to get it, with my 56 year old King at the front of the troops.

[Brother Derfel]

Old Bald Guy has said it all as far as I am concerned. I paid, I didn't get, So I won't pay again.

[Maniac]

Quote[/b] (Monk @ June 22 2003,04:57)]ok dont buy it...yet. i myself along with many others will buy it and undoubtably be here about 20 min after we get to playing, shouting praises of its greatness (as im sure it will be so).
And after a 100 or 200 minutes of play, you'll be here saying: "There is this horrible bug..." while CA and the publishers will say the other is responsible for patching.

[Suppiluliumas]

Going a step further, I am actually waiting to buy VI untill a patch is released. I would certainly do the same for RTW if there were reports of persistent, game altering bugs. Of course if a patch for VI is never released, I won't be buying even that. I take my role as a consumer very seriously, such that if I do not feel a company has earned my support, they will not receive it.

That said, I honestly believe that CA will eventually patch VI, just not as quickly as many of us would like.

[andrewt]

I just went to Fry's Electronics and saw the prices for Starcraft and Warcraft2. $9.99. Both these games were patched last year and are at least 5 yrs. old. They also spent a considerable time on the top sellers list. I don't think there are that many people who don't have these games yet who are considering buying it. And I don't think that they would have a lot of profits with the price. Blizzard also patched Warcraft3, even though they are busy making the expansion, which is going to be released less than 2 months after the patch.

It all does back to customer service. CA has earned my support with Shogun but lost a little of it with VI. I'm going to take a wait and see approach to Rome. Medieval has more sales than Shogun but less patches. I already preordered Warcraft3: The Frozen Throne. I will also preorder World of Warcraft, though I haven't played an MMORPG before.

Black Isle isn't that rich either but they gave away an entire expansion free over the Internet when their expansion didn't meet consumer's expectations. VI has already crashed on me multiple times.

[Lehesu]

WHO'S FIRED UP FOR THE NEW DIABLO PATCH?? IT SHOULD BE RELEASED WITHIN THE NEXT MONTH OR TWO Seriously, when that patch comes out, I am going to have a siesta and probably not play Warcraft III, Total War, Jedi Knight II, or anything for a looooooooonnnnnnnggggggg time. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[andrewt]

It's probably going to be released after the Frozen Throne comes out. I'll probably alternate between that and the Warcraft3 expansion. I've only been playing LAN with family since my characters online have been deleted since I haven't played them for over a year already. We have 5 computers here currently. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Lehesu]

Yeah, it is kind of a shame that I will have to wait until Frozen Throne is released to get my patch. Heck, right now, I wish they would shuck Frozen Throne and get on with the patch http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[andrewt]

Frozen Throne is going to be in retail on July 1 but there are already copies of the finished game in eDonkey and BitTorrent going around in the last few days. LOL. I'm a beta tester so I don't care that much.

Just thinking about the Diablo2 patch, there was only one guy mostly working on that patch for almost a year (might actually be more than a year) while the rest of his buddies were programming the new game. If Activision knew about this, they might stick Gil or ECS to a solitary room doing the VI patch by himself and they'll be so pissed we'll never see them anymore. I forgot the name of the guy but he was solely responsible for the patch. Other guys just help him from time to time. That must suck, doing it on your own while the rest proceed to the new game. Oh well, the new game might not be playable yet so he can have fun patching Diablo2 by his lonesome.

[Demon of Light]

In case any of you are confused, the "I WILL buy RTW regardless of whether or not it is patched thread was merged into this one. I see no mention of Soly and Shiro letting us in on that.

[Ulug Beg]

Ah, that explains my confusion.

[cart6566]

I will not buy it because:

They made me pay for VI to patch MTW.

They left the tech-tree poster out of VI (most of us don't have printers that will print to ledger size paper).

They will not patch VI.

Disgusting.

[Jacque Schtrapp]

Look at all of you people complaining about a piece of software that doesn't work like its supposed to:

"They said it would be bug free" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

"It crashes sometimes" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

"Their customer support sucks" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif


Of course every single one of you are playing this game on a computer operating under one of the least stable OS's available, Micro$oft Window$. Oh the sweet sweet irony

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Empress_Zoe]

Strapp,
Im guessing your taking the mickey right?
Like any of us had a choice of operating system.
Oh the irony...

I agree totally with old guy, he has summed it all up, and while im not really what i would call OLD, lol, i still have seen many companies go south from this behaviour.

I agree that many of you that are saying how bad you want Rome, based TOTALLY on a few screen shots and maybe a video or something, have a LOT to learn.

So money is the problem is it? check out Paradox, one of the smallest companies in software their is, and not only do they keep making patches, but they allow the players themselves to have massive direct input to any new features or fixes they would like, Yes Hearts of iron had many bugs when it came out, now its really starting to shine, and how many people does Paradox employ? stuff all.

It seems the bigger a company gets, the more it cares about saving a few piddly dollars, All we are asking for is for the game to work as it should be No one here even TRYS to ask for new features, instead people here have to virtually beg to get one patch, It is totally disgusting, period.

As stated before, I hope there is a patch, in the very near future for VI, otherwise no sale, i have seen and heard many similar comments on other forums, in emails, even the game shop salespeople tell me how people are starting to shy away from CA products due to lack of support and patching, the game shop salesmen Even some of those guys have more morals than CA

And if there isn't a patch, i will waiting around to have a laugh at the Rome fans http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
bye
Z http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Empress_Zoe]

LOL even Windows has more patches than MTW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Empress_Zoe]

Sorry, can't resist one more post.

For all of you Fanboyz that are plugging for no patches, you are the ones that are honestly doing yourself a disfavour.

Too many companies get away with this too often, ironically MTW was the final nail in the coffin of me buying a game as soon as it was released, never again, from now on i wait and see, scrutinise every bug post and generall wait for the first inkling of a patch, i foresee many others joining this list, and eventually CA and other companies will go down the drain.

So support these people all you like, your not only making it harder for everyone else, but in the long run, you will make it harder for yourself too when games get buggier and you get no updates, and run out of saliva drooling for the next buggy game.

[Lord Of Storms]

I had no intentions of Buying RTW until I can successfully Mod the files for MTW VI , From my standpoint alot of promises were made regarding the Modability of VI and indeed some of that has been realised, but IMHO it falls way short of the promises made. That coupled with the relative silence on the Developers part has helped me make up my mind. No RTW for me

[Lehesu]

"I am not worthy" *whump* "I am not worthy" *whump*


[save it for email - this thing goes too off topic and it's over. - Soly]

[Longasc]

Do you know why we hate MTW and VI left unfinished?

Because we love MTW and VI, but I really cannot say I was ever so fond of my operating system... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Old Bald Guy]

Sorry to beat the proverbial dead horse, but I just got completely jobbed this past weekend.

Playing GA as Spain, I lost. I had 250k in the bank, the largest force, the best trade, moving where and when I wanted. Enjoying the heck out of a really good game. Then, I noticed my King had OLD sons, none of whom I could get married. His first son took over, then he croaked when his only son was 1 freakin' year old. His brother died a few years later when the kid was eight. The kid's uncle was 52. Yeah, you get the math. I knew from the kid's birth I was doomed. I could do add up the numbers and knew there was no way to win. A death sentence for my empire. "Your king died with no heirs." Better luck next time, jack.

Those still playing the game know the feeling. I put in hour after hour only to lose through absolutely no fault of my own. That, my friends, is why we are asking for this to be patched.

OBG

[Hakonarson]

I paid for what I bought - I'm an adult, I made up my own mind - I didn't buy a path for MTW in VI - I bought an extension - like pretty much any extension to any game anywhere it came with a patch attached - which was good.

Anyone who expects a bug free game from any publishing house has got his arse in the air and his head in the sand and deserves to be treated like anyone else who loks lie that - getting a good boot in the posterior

[cart6566]

Example of proper game support: http://www.strategyfirst.com/en/

[Hakonarson]

Yep - they're great, and I buy from them too.

But if everyone was that good then there'd still be people moaning because they wanted it better, and their games are NOT perfect either........

[Lehesu]

Actually, I don't even like most of Strategy First's games... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Captain Fishpants]

Quote[/b] (cart6566 @ June 23 2003,08:00)]I will not buy it because:

They made me pay for VI to patch MTW.

They left the tech-tree poster out of VI (most of us don't have printers that will print to ledger size paper).

They will not patch VI.

Disgusting.
I'm going to raise my head above the parapet for a second and say the following:

a) VI was *not* a patch to MTW. It was an expansion. A version 1.1 had been released earlier for MTW. VI was a new version of the game, and a rather good one too, even allowing for the old king problem. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

b) The tech tree poster can be printed out at assorted sizes, but you may have to use tiling. Most PC printers support this these days; check out your print options. In hindsight perhaps marketing made an error on this one.

c) OK. Fair enough. Glad that's been decided then. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

d) Reasonable. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

MikeB ~ CA

[Ulug Beg]

I don’t think people do expect bug free games these days, and haven’t for years. What they do expect is decent after sales care, which included fixing bugs with patches.

I remember reading an article in a gaming mag about 5 years ago concerning the increase in occurrence of bugs in games. The reason given for this was pressure in the gaming industry to get the games out, and if they weren’t perfect then it didn’t matter because they could be patched later. The internet made this possible. Patches were distributed via the net, which was great if you lived in America where internet access was widespread, but not so great this side of the pond.

Prior to widespread internet access you had to write off to the company and they would send you a floppy with the patch (anyone remember Harpoon?), or you had to wait to see if one appeared on the cover disk of a gaming magazine. Patching was a pain so games companies made more effort to make sure there weren’t bugs. Many games, that were very buggy and required patches, were never sold in the UK because with most people not having internet access they simply returned them to the retailer. Home access to the internet has increased 5 fold over the past 4 years in the UK, and most gamers now can probably access the internet.

So, customers are more prepared to buy buggy products because of the expectation that they will be patched, a process made easy for both customer and games company by the internet. If games companies forget why they are able to ship what are essentially unfinished products, they need to be reminded. I feel its time to pen a letter to those gaming magazines that endorse these products so much.

And remember, as Longasc said, we only complain so much because we care so much. If MTW and VI were rubbish I wouldn’t care if it didn’t work properly.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

[A.Saturnus]

To make one thing clear: I will not buy Rome because I expect it to be better than VI. I will buy Rome because I expect it to be a good game.
And I have reason to expect this:
MTW is a good game.
VI is a good expansion. It met my expectations.
If Rome is as good as VI, it`s good enough to buy it. Though it`s likely to be better (from what I read in the FAQ). That means it will be more than worth it`s money for me. So, if I wouldn`t buy it, I would have a loss. It would be stupid to do this. It may be different for you, but for me it`s like I said.

It`s not that I let CA get away with not-patching-their-games, but I don`t let them away with making-the-best-strategy-games-ever.

[frogbeastegg]

Here's my stance on Rome. I will buy Rome from a shop with a returns policy like Game. If I find it to be horribly buggy I will return it for a refund and not buy it again until (unless) I hear that all it's problems are fixed. I know it won't be perfect (I've been in this game too long for that kind of naivete) but I will not tolerate game breaking bugs.

However I will be deeply unhappy if VI is not given at least 1 patch and will scrutinise Rome even harder. It will also reinforce the Total War = good game + bad support image that is beginning to emerge.

(On a side note does anyone else have Emperor:Rise of the middle kingdom? 6 months and no patch. It's been in quality assurance for months. That is really bad support.)

EDIT-Emperor: Rise of the middle kingdom is one of the city building series of games begun by ceasar. It's set in ancient china. Good fun but the fighting is crap.

[Lehesu]

That wouldn't have any relationship to the Emperor: Battle for Dune game, would it?.....No...no...I guess it wouldn't...That's a great game though.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Demon of Light]

For those who are unclear on my position, I am unhappy about the bugs in VI and I have no intention of buying Rome:Total War if I cannot reasonably expect support for the game. I started the other "I WILL buy RTW regardless of whether or not there is a patch for VI" thread for a couple of reasons

1) The original intent of this thread was getting clouded. This was meant to be a way to agitate for a patch. Instead, people who disagreed did so here. This thread was meant to show solidarity behind the idea of patching VI. The arguments and counter-arguments made the thread as a whole less than persuasive in showing solidarity existed. I decided to give people with dissenting views a place to express them. (They do, after all, have a right to those opinions)

2)I wanted a comparison that would show that more people wanted a patch and that they outnumbered those that did not. I hoped that the other thread would have fewer posts and that my point would be made. I wanted the comparison but found that the other thread began to mirror this one. No wonder that the two were merged.

3) I also started the other thread because I have as few braincells as that one guy on the now locked "I WILL buy RTW..." says I do.


I restarted the thread knowing full well iit would be locked as soon as it was seen by Solypsist or Shiro. The idea was that, because some people didn't know the threads had been merged, I would notify everyone about the merged threads. Fairness demands that the other side be given an opportunity to show up if the new intent (as mandated by de facto by whoever did the merging) of this thread is to discuss the issue of a patch.

I do not know why no one mentioned the merging so do not ask me.

Is everyone clear now?

[Longasc]

I am just waiting for Captain Fishpants to post a short message with an URL saying

"Here - the Beta-Patch for Viking Invasion, just tell us if you still experience some trouble".

Now that would be really cool.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Lehesu]

Don't wait too long...you'll die. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[A.Saturnus]

I think the only one who said he doesn`t want a patch was KY, which is ok, because he doesn`t play it anymore. All I disagreed with was the necessity to boycott CA.
They should definitely make a patch.

PS Lehesu, your sig drives me mad...

[Shahed]

I like the way these two threads were merged.

What started as a GENUINE complaint thread has now become a discussion between players.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[solypsist]

Quote[/b] (SeljukSinan @ June 25 2003,05:20)]I like the way these two threads were merged.

What started as a GENUINE complaint thread has now become a discussion between players.
Well things were going that way in both topics, so it made sense to just merge the topics. After a certain point, most threads evolve from their original purpose, either in subject or by way of spam. So now we have this discussion thread (a good one, too) but people who still feel the need to proclaim their intent to buy or not buy RTW based on a VI patch or other customer service issue should do so.

[solypsist]

Quote[/b] (A.Saturnus @ June 25 2003,05:14)]I think the only one who said he doesn`t want a patch was KY, which is ok, because he doesn`t play it anymore. All I disagreed with was the necessity to boycott CA.
They should definitely make a patch.

PS Lehesu, your sig drives me mad...
you can turn off the feature that shows sigs in your control panel options. that way you can just read the thread without the interruption of big picture sigs and such.


i know several users who have done it, and prefer it that way.

[Lord Of Storms]

Quote[/b] (Lehesu @ June 24 2003,14:49)]Don't wait too long...you'll die. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
At 56 years old http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Empress_Zoe]

LOL, That cracked me up Storms

I would like to put a few questions to the buying bunch.

and please answer this without the rhetoric.

Are you happy buying buggy games/addons?

If Not, how should this be changed?

If yes, why?

What is a good amount of after release support?

FOR YELLOW NIGHT MAINLY, why don't you play MTW anymore?

See if you guys can answer that, And btw, I view myself as thinking in the right way when i would like bugs to be fixed, and putting my butt in the air and getting kicked in the posterior as some charming individual stated here is rather what is happening to those that accept this kind of behaviour, Im certain that sometime in the future there will be a class action against a software developer if this rubbish continues to worsen, and i hope they take the developer/publisher to town.

As stated, software before the internet was a much more polished thing, yet here we see companies with the opportunity to fix their mistakes and people able to get patches, and what happens? they don't even bother, things will get worse, until more of you realise that this needs to be fixed, try getting over being hooked on a few screen shots and a made up faq, help yourselves.

[Empress_Zoe]

Captain Fishpants.

Glad that you could pop your head up, shows a lot of courage......

Since you know different about the patch, as im taking your rolling eyes to mean sarcasm, good, then please tell us whether this is indeed happening. Thanks

You brought out a patch better than some companies i suppose.......

glad you find it reasonable, enjoying multiplayer yes??

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Empress_Zoe]

Actually don't bother, do what you want, Im not getting involved in this any further, i have emailed Activision, got the canned response, and i have seen enough here to make me realise the answers i would get already, more canned responses.

And Just see if i bother buying RTW if they choose not to support MTW any longer, As stated by others, I have better games to buy, and i can't wait to buy Victoria.........

seeya

[antek]

I just hope that Rome will actually work on normal computers, because these graphics scare me

[Lehesu]

Quote[/b] (A.Saturnus @ June 25 2003,05:14)]I think the only one who said he doesn`t want a patch was KY, which is ok, because he doesn`t play it anymore. All I disagreed with was the necessity to boycott CA.
They should definitely make a patch.

PS Lehesu, your sig drives me mad...
Saturnus, was that just humor, or does the little troupe of dancing Kikkoman drive you into a homicidal rage? I haven't yet finalized what my sig pics should be, still working on it. I think the Deckard Cain pic was better...

[RisingSun]

Lehesu, I'd remove your sig, before you get sued for driving a man insane, and making him shoot his computer. Of course, some of the mindless babble in this thread from fanboys could do the same.

-For the record, I DO NOT EVEN HAVE VI I decided not to buy it when I heard of the bugs, and I'm glad, and now that the bugs still won't be fixed, (in all likelyhood) I don't think I'll buy Rome, unless it is given several "all clears".

[A.Saturnus]

Some more mindless babble (looks like I`m standing pretty alone now):



Quote[/b] ]Are you happy buying buggy games/addons?

If Not, how should this be changed?

If yes, why?

What is a good amount of after release support?


If you ask this way, yes I`m happy to buy buggy games/addons. Why?
Well, all games I`ve bought so far were buggy but still most of them I enjoyed. So, essentially, buying buggy games is associated with fun. Of course, buying non-buggy games could be even greater fun, but I`m still have to experience this yet (playing games since 1985).
What can be done about that?
Make the world a perfect place.
Good support?
Trying to fix all bugs.
Necessary support?
Making a game run.

[A.Saturnus]

I know I can turn of sigs but then I wouldn`t see mine, right?
No, I think the best solution for all is to ban Lehesu for lifetime...
(just kidding) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Portuguese Rebel]

Quote[/b] ]Well, all games I`ve bought so far were buggy but still most of them I enjoyed. So, essentially, buying buggy games is associated with fun. Of course, buying non-buggy games could be even greater fun, but I`m still have to experience this yet (playing games since 1985).

then you must have realized the following stages:

1st Games with few bugs, some testing involved, no possibility of a patch

2nd Games with fewer bugs, extensive testing involved, no possibility of a patch

3rd same as 2 but companies can mail disks with patches

4th Internet era, companies find a easy way to distribute patches

5th Many companies don't test their games and let the client do it and then patch it, games full of bugs

6th Situation getting worse, companies promisse much on their websites, sell games with little to do with the promisses and then patch them, sometimes added features are in the patch

7th Same as 6th but this time companies capitalize on sequels and don't patch and dont beta test at all (or so it seems), rushed games abound


The best example of stage 7 is Master of orion 3. If you go to their official website you will find a huge amount of promisses. They sound really, really good. But you get the game and you will see that more than half of the promisses were just empty. The excuse they gave the customers was that they had to rush it out (hardly since they had 4-5 years to the the thing). Then you see that not only they have not take down the unfullfiled promisses from their website (this is criminal) but the game is also full of bugs and poorly conceived. They did release a patch about 3 months later that didn't even fixed the most serious bugs...

They capitalized on the success of MOO and MOO2 (two of the best games ever IMO) and released a game they knew was bound to failure. But they did not care, since the fanboys (me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif ) had bought the game already, hence making a big profit for them (it must have been huge since they must have wasted very little resources on that piece of garbage).

And what about the 8th stage? That is for us to decide...

[Mount Suribachi]

Yeah that promised feature not turning up is getting more and more common... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

NHL2003 actually has *on the box* that the game contains features X and Y. But guess what? Buy the game and X and Y aren't there... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[Empress_Zoe]

I wonder why your standing alone Saturnus.....

Seriously thought, If you can tell me what games of the pre patch era had bugs that are as bad as many today, please do so, I can think of many that had zero bugs, and played as they were supposed to.

See, game dev people sound more and more like politicians.

They promise this and that, they make up all sorts of claims, how their game will grant world peace, fix the hole in the ozone layer, etc.

Now game companies have big budgets, lots of money, and sell many more copies.

Yesterdays games were by small developers, had small budgets and sold few copies.....however, they still seemed to have less bugs.

This is due to 2 things no doubt.

1. Companies today use a lot more in the games they make, many more options, larger code, graphics, etc(please no one say AI has gotten all that better, lol).

2.Companies of old properly tested their wares, if they were too buggy, they were blackbanned by consumers and went down the drain.

Today they have the option to patch, if they wish to cut out extensive testing, then they need to realise that patching a game sufficiently is a necessity, not a privalege for the consumer.

PS: Can anyone shed any light on why Review Mags/Games site reviews are so full of bs? on some games they totally miss the bugs, and say options are in games that plainly are not their.

[Ulug Beg]

MOO3 was supposed to come out at the same time as MTW in spring 2002, but was delayed a further year, despite having already been in development for years.

I am a big fan of MOO2 (never had MOO1) and was really looking forward to the latest incarnation, until I read the reviews In addition to all the bugs it apparently has appaling AI. I only play SP so didn't think it was worth buying. Maybe when it comes out in budget form at £4.99 I will get it for a laugh, and who knows, there maybe lots of patches for it by then.

Getting good AI in a game is one of the hardest things to do, which is why developers cut corners and emphasise the MP aspects of a game.

At least the Total War series had good AI (not including the diplomacy side which is a tad simplistic).

[Ulug Beg]

"PS: Can anyone shed any light on why Review Mags/Games site reviews are so full of bs? on some games they totally miss the bugs, and say options are in games that plainly are not their."

Maybe they don't actually play the games, just re-hash the sales blurb from the developer.[B]

[Mount Suribachi]

Quote[/b] (Empress_Zoe @ June 26 2003,16:47)]PS: Can anyone shed any light on why Review Mags/Games site reviews are so full of bs? on some games they totally miss the bugs, and say options are in games that plainly are not their.
Because the version they review is often an incomplete build. Added to that is the pressure that publishers put on them eg "we'll let you get the exclusive review of game X to put on your cover and give you lots of sales, but you have to give the game at least 90%" MTW was reviewed in PC Gamer (UK) that went on sale about 2 days after MTW went gold. Go figure. That was about a week after Darkmoor Dragon said "MTW is at least one build and 4 weeks away from completion". Is it any wonder there were so many bugs?

[Portuguese Rebel]

Quote[/b] ]I am a big fan of MOO2 (never had MOO1) and was really looking forward to the latest incarnation, until I read the reviews In addition to all the bugs it apparently has appaling AI.

1st you shoul get MOO1 instead of MOO3. good luck running it on a modern system but the game is simple but very good.

Appaling AI is an understatment but what bugs the guys the most is the playability. The AI make all the decisions and sometimes ignores you altogether. If you turn on all the autos the game plays itself, and you only have to press end turn. I've actually won a game were i almost did nothing... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

And the diplomacy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif im getting depressed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif , that was one of my favourite series...

[Lehesu]

Stop beating on Saturnus everybody *turns to Saturnus* You have my sword any day (despite the fact that you don't like my army of Kikkomen)

I agree with Saturnus; games with bugs is the standard. Games without them are above-average; good for them. Of course, that scale assumes the game is playable and somewhat enjoyable.

[Longasc]

For releasing an add-on that actually decreased playability, I wonder how developers can leave any doubt that well known bugs will be fixed.

[A.Saturnus]

Don`t forget that years ago, games were pretty easy, so it was no problem to find bugs and correct them. Today, games are so huge that it`s almost impossible to find all bugs. For Baldur`s Gate 2 for example, more than a million bugs had to be corrected, and there were still enough in the release version. And ToB added quiet some new ones (I couldn`t even play it without a patch). But still, despite bugs, I like to play that games and I`ll surely buy BG3.

[Brutal DLX]

There's a BG3 coming out????? That would be grand
BG2 is among the best RPGs ever.

[A.Saturnus]

It was annonced on E3, but rumoured has it since a while now. Strange enough, I thought the story ended...

[Brutal DLX]

Hmmm.. depends. Even for a god there might be challenges, and if you chose the mortals way, they could twist it to give back your powers since only you can stop the new threat arising from blah blah http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I'd buy it
U ever played it online?

[Shahed]

Bg ??? RPG ???? heh huh ??


DAoC (www.darkageofcamelot.com)

E V E (www.eve-online.com)

Is it better than this ?

[Brutal DLX]

I don't know the others, but I say yes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
It's a great storyline, much u can do, and u can also mod it.

[andrewt]

There is no BG3. The game listing in EB was taken down after the developers confirmed that there was none. If either Black Isle or Bioware makes a new D&D game, it most likely won't be BG3 but have a new title.

[Red Emperor the Invincible]

i would strongly suggest that CA should focus on improving current MTW rather than release a new one. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Empress_Zoe]

I understand what you said Saturnus, it was easier.....

Again i ask, How could some of these bugs have been allowed onto VI with any form of playtesting? How could playtesters not see 56 bug?

You would think they could of at least signed a lucrative deal with Paul Mcartney and make them die at 64.

Also just saw a special on TV about EA, have you seen the building? That company is MASSIVE How much support and error fixing do they have? not very much, yet some people here are saying its a question of money? whatever, when i see a small company like paradox, and others still patching, and supporting even their old games, i laugh at reasons of money coming thick and fast.

[Lehesu]

What is monetarily expedient for one company is not for the other. Large companies, fielding large numbers of both personnel and cash can find things such as patching unnecessary, considering the resources that would be devoted. Smaller companies may find patching more important to maintain a good following. Large companies put out enough games that they will generally end up with some money in the coffers; losing some buyers because of no patching does not hurt them as much as smaller companies, who have smaller resources and must trust in a devoted fan base for money. On the flipside, large companies are often under much more stress to make money to pay out the very expensive day-to-day operations expenses and wages. Smaller companies pay less for these operations. This makes companies often become more and more frugal with their money the larger they grow, as they need reserves in case of a bad year; they still have a lot of employees to pay and that stuff can suck money up fast. Also, companies are for producing money, and some companies are just more "into" their games and providing support. Some people see playability as neccessary to please fans, as well as a genuine feeling of "hey, I made this game, I think it's pretty cool, and I want it to work." Other companies see playability as a means to end, a way to make money. They carefully balance how much money should be expended to make the most return. They may not care so much about the game, just the money it brings.

[A.Saturnus]

Quote[/b] ]There is no BG3. The game listing in EB was taken down after the developers confirmed that there was none. If either Black Isle or Bioware makes a new D&D game, it most likely won't be BG3 but have a new title.



http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif sure about that? I read they had a banner for BG3 shown on E3.

Empress_Zoe, the year-56 bug can quite easily stay unnoticed during playtesting. It took weeks until we found it and this community is much larger than any playtesting team.
The fact that EA doesn`t do playtesting doesn`t prove that it`s not a question of money for smaller companies. Of course, playtesting is a must for any company that wants to produce qualitative software, but I do not believe that VI wasn`t playtested.

[YunDog]

Wow I finally reached the last page of this thread.
Re: The quicksave bug - interestingly I havent experienced it so far and am playing my 3rd game in Viking era but havent been back to play Medieval era yet

Re: King dies at 56, who cares when he dies really, hes going to die thats for sure - hence why I take small interest in him, Im only interested in the generals that will win my battles not some king that you build up only to lose. I admit it is an annoying bug but hardly makes the game unplayable as is implied by many posts. Quite frankly I hadnt noticed till it was posted incesantly.

Re: buying RTW do you guys expect anyone to believe that when RTW comes out and everyones playing it and the hypes all over town, that you wont rush out the midnight of its release and put it in your grubby little hands with drool running over your lips and greedily purchase it and then stash it in your trench coats like some pervert at a late night porn shop. HA I dont believe you what do you say to that.

Re: patching - check history
STW - 2 patches
MISTW - 0 patches no there was 1 wasnt there???
MTW - 1 patch
MTWVI - you do the numbers

maybe once RTW is release and MTW is long dead you could convince CA to release the source code and we could mod it fix it and multiplayer it and finally it would be the game of which we are all dreaming. hey I can dream cant I

[Jacque Schtrapp]

Quote[/b] (Empress_Zoe @ June 29 2003,12:40)]Also just saw a special on TV about EA, have you seen the building? That company is MASSIVE How much support and error fixing do they have? not very much, yet some people here are saying its a question of money? whatever, when i see a small company like paradox, and others still patching, and supporting even their old games, i laugh at reasons of money coming thick and fast.
Ah but it likely is about money. However, not necessarily in the manner in which you think. EA makes its money off the sale of new games, I seriously doubt brand loyalty means anything to them since they can purchase the competition. Anything that takes a developer/programmer/tester away from working on RTW is seen as non-profitable. I would hazard a guess that the actual amount of money required to fix some of the bugs in VI is relatively small, however when weighed against the potential inability to release RTW a few weeks earlier than planned and the subsequent loss in sales, MTW-VI patches probably pale in comparison. It's all about the next big thing, not about improving existing product.

[Longasc]

Some probably did not even notice that quicksaves often screw up the game, too.

I think fixing the die at 56 bug would not be too much of a problem for a willing programmers team.

The other thing probably much more, but as we are only good for praising their latest game and of course paying for it, we should offer them some money for patching their flawed work... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Empress_Zoe]

Thats just it though.

I also wonder why CA, if they blame Activision, after EA don't you think they would like a little more operative freedom? It seems they jumped from the frying pan into the fire.

Jacque, I agree with what you said about money, but thats the reason why i laugh at it, it disgusts me, hence why i don't buy EA games http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Praylak]

Re: the age 56 bug and early game retirement.

I haven't yet been able to verify this, but does it seem more campaigns end early because you run out of hiers? Pre VI, I recall having some very old kings, potent ones too. Never had problems baby making. Now, this is the second time my campaign ended because I ran out of princes. If I only had another 10 years for my King, I would have had several possible replacements.

If this is the case, the age 56 bug may well be more of a problem than I first realized. ??

[bighairyman]

not for me, if you are really desperate
i may have an answer to the 56 bug http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif .

and i will buy RTW, but only under 70 dollars http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Sussexonian]

CA/Activision's attitude to patching disappoints me and will, IMO, damage sales of their future products.

I will buy Half-Life2 when it is released because I know it will be patched, repatched and patched again until customers are happy.

I will NOT buy RTW when it is released but will wait until when and if forums like this can reassure me that any issues/problems have been properly dealt with by patches.

[Praylak]

Alright Hairyman, I'm in suspense here, whats your fix?

Well if it was any other era, I would probably resist purchase of R:TW until I got a chance to read peoples comments on it. But I'll admit the Roman era is a personal favorite. Actually I hope the next one is Ancient:Total War, but Rome is close enough.

Still, a little patch for VI would go miles for CA and Activision. Come on guys

[Belisarius]

I think many of the gaming companys ought to take a look at Paradox Entertainment (http://www.europa-universalis.com/) though their games were buggy when first released, for Europa Universalis they released a total of ten patches, for Europa Universalis 2 wich was released a year and a half ago, they have released eight patches, and migth release more if needed, and so far they have released five patches for Hearts of Irons.

For doing this they have been awarded with an loyal and dedicated group of fans.

Also, not much in their games are hardcoded so that players may mod pretty much everything, as well as help rooting out bugs.

I just hope that CA is just as dedicated as PE to get their products bugfree.

[Longasc]

To be fair, Hearts of Iron had several more not only serious but *critical* bugs than MTW.

But the will to fix things until they are right is something that must be honored, because it is something that CA did not show up to now. Read the thread, those who answered did not feel too sorry about VI's bugs.

[Portuguese Rebel]

Companys with good post-gold support:

- Paradox (example: EU and EU2)
- Eidos interactive (example: Cahmpionship Manager series)
- Strategy First (example: Galactic Civilizations)
- Blizzard (example: Warcraft series)
Companys with little/no post gold support (A.K.A. blacklisted for me):

- Quicksilver (example: Master Of Orion 3)
- Microids (example: Empire of the ants)
- Creative Assembly (example: MTW/mtw-vi) (they are the developers,why do they blame activision?)

Does someone want to add to the lists?

[andrewt]

Add Black Isle (RPG division of Interplay) to the list of companies with good post-patch bugfixing and additions.

Also Bioware.

These guys are more middle of the pack compared to Blizzard, though, which has a really excellent post-gold support.

[Old Bald Guy]

My resolve is completly hardened. I will not, NOT, buy RTW unless MTW is fixed. I've played nothing but MTW for the past two months, and pretty much nothing since early December, and I love it. I want it FIXED. If it takes a boycott, then that's what should happen.

No word, no explanations, nothing.

I'm reminded of an old joke: A guy asks a woman how much it would cost him for her to screw him. She says twenty bucks. He waits, and waits, and waits, and finally he asks, "Well?" And she replies, "Again?"

It's time to do something on someone's foot. And we're just the guys to do it.

[Praylak]

I can't believe they won't eventually fix MTW:VI. Unless CA posted it and I missed it somewhere. It's a great game. The sales are great, the green is in motion. The awards are there and their future is secure. It's got a loyal following of fans, and why not? I also can't believe that CA is honestly completely satisfied with it as is, and there's allot to be said about that.

Edit: Oh and I would add Taldren to the list of good developers for patches. Hell, I couldn't even run SFC2 out of the box. Over time they really enhanced the game and they did use unofficial patches. Good guys.

[Portuguese Rebel]

Quote[/b] ]Add Black Isle (RPG division of Interplay) to the list of companies with good post-patch bugfixing and additions.

Also Bioware.


Yes, black isle is good and bioware is an old timer company. They know what have kept them afloat when so many didn't.

[RisingSun]

I have HoI and I didn't notice any bugs playing as Germany.

[Knight Keimo]

Quote[/b] (Praylak @ July 09 2003,09:55)]I can't believe they won't eventually fix MTW:VI. Unless CA posted it and I missed it somewhere.
Just to be curious, I´d like to hear what are those horrible bugs in VI?? No offense, I just really hasn´t notice or find many of them.. Unless that 56-old thing.

Yup, the patch would be nice, but still, there are so many other games with so many bugs.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif MTW is still quite good. Allmost good enough http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[econ21]

Along the same lines of Knight Keino - anyone care to explain the "quick save" bug? I tried to save between battles last night and found the quick save slot would not load (dumped to desktop).

[RisingSun]

Keimo, there is the 5 years old bug, there is the quicksave between battles bug where the game wont load and it crashes, and heres te reinforcements screen bug whre only cavary on fist no matter what order you put reinforcements in on the screen. Even one critical bug is too many, and VI has three, and all three sabotage new features whic would make you want to buy VI.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Posted by Frankymole in the entrance hall;


Quote[/b] ]Latest responses from the Activision forum/customer care:

Customer - 07/06/2003 07:49 AM
"Kings die at 56.

No matter what the faction, faction leaders inevitably die at the age of 56, without exception. This is a problem if they have not fathered an heir by the age of 39 - some of the A.I. factions have lapsed into rebellions this way.

Is there going to be a fix for this?

Response (Raymond Wong) - 07/06/2003 07:54 AM
Hi,

Thanks for contacting Activision Customer Support. I am sorry to hear you are having problems with Medieval: Total War - Viking Invasion.

We are aware of this issue and looking into it. Currently, there is no way to prevent this from happening."

--
"Q:The bug that kills all Kings at age 56 is making the game unplayable. Other factions are simply unable to compete and keep dissolving into civil war. Can you please give an idea when a patch, even a small interim one, can be released?"

Response (Christopher O'Neill) - 07/11/2003 12:46 PM
"Hi,

Thanks for contacting Customer Support. I'm sorry you are having a gameplay issue with Medieval: Total War - Viking Invasion expansion.

I suggest that you download the latest patch for Medieval: Total War if you have not already done so. You can get that here:

/activision.custhelp.com/...atches.php

Unfortunately, we do not know what will be included in future versions of the game.

I suggest that you take any suggestions to the forums on www.totalwar.com ."

NB it is not advisable to load the v.1 MTW patch over VI -- the advice given above contradicts advice given elsewhere by Activision.

[Mount Suribachi]

Doesn't exactly fill you with confidence does it?

[Odinn]

Why won't they just make a patch??? The 56 year bug is so annoying that I can't force myself to play a campain for more than an hour.

[FesterShinetop]

I don't get why they are so mysterious about it... if they ARE going to release a patch then why can't they just tell us? Or is that a big secret or something. They can say that the bugs are there but nothing on releasing a patch...??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Guess a very obvious explanation is that there ISN'T gonna be a patch... very lame.

[Odinn]

they should warn about the bugs before selling a product... well im warned and wont buy either viking invasion or rome (i will get them in some way though...)

[Portuguese Rebel]

Quote[/b] ]I don't get why they are so mysterious about it... if they ARE going to release a patch then why can't they just tell us?

I guess that not telling us means that they are not working on it. This way they can fool a couple more peeps in buying it, since there is no final "we won't do it" answer. 5 years from here you can ask "when is it going to be a patch for VI?" and they will still answer:

"Hi, thanks for contacting Activision Customer Support. I am sorry to hear you are having problems with Medieval: Total War - Viking Invasion.We are aware of this issue and looking into it. Currently, there is no way to prevent this from happening."

[FesterShinetop]

Quote[/b] (Portuguese Rebel @ July 15 2003,21:18)]
Quote[/b] ]I don't get why they are so mysterious about it... if they ARE going to release a patch then why can't they just tell us?

I guess that not telling us means that they are not working on it. This way they can fool a couple more peeps in buying it, since there is no final "we won't do it" answer. 5 years from here you can ask "when is it going to be a patch for VI?" and they will still answer:

"Hi, thanks for contacting Activision Customer Support. I am sorry to hear you are having problems with Medieval: Total War - Viking Invasion.We are aware of this issue and looking into it. Currently, there is no way to prevent this from happening."
Well, even worse, there are probably people still believing them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[andrewt]

Maybe that's the problem. They're just LOOKING at the problem. They aren't really attempting to fix it.

[Lehesu]

VI is good. I like it. Compared to many other games, VI is a perfect system, as far as bugs go. There are not too many debilitating things besides the 56 bug. Custom battles work perfectly, and some errors such as the alliance whichfactionisit glitches really don't have an impact because that deals with diplomacy, which we all acknowledge is not very useful in VI. In reality, we may be choking our own fan base by discouraging others from buying VI and then not buying Rome. Fan base will be in the shits if no one plays the game anymore. If it reaches that point, than this whole conversation will be moot. My advice to the cautious ones:

Don't listen to all of the "VI is so bugged its unplayable" hype. If you find a copy on sale, or at a reasonable price, go ahead. Buy it. You might be surprised (for the better). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[FesterShinetop]

I agree. Of course the game is still playable, even if you take this bug into account. But it is still a bug and it can be a rather irritating one I can imagine... Now Activision/CA KNOW about this bug, so why don't they just make a patch for it, or AT LEAST admit they are NOT going to release a patch for it...

If they say they are not going to make a patch people at least know what to expect from VI... a game with some bug in it (minor for some, major for others). Now they don't say anything at all... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

I don't have VI, and I am not planning to buy it at full price (especially with the bug in it). I might get it when the price drops.

As for RTW... I would probably not be able to contain myself when that hits the shelves... but it better not be having bugs in it (or else some quick patches). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Old Bald Guy]

Therein lies the rub, Apache. There will ALWAYS be bugs in every new game. We know it and it's an acceptable risk. However, we expect the bugs to be addressed. Usually, they are, as game commpanies know their customers expect it. In this case, we've been shown by experience that there will be limited support for the game. When you say, there better not be bugs or else quick patches, what indication do you have there will be? Have you not seen proof there won't be?

I do not want to boycott CA and not buy a game that by all indication will be very cool. However, I know no way of showing my displeasure over the lack of support for the games I enjoy so much. I believe in CA's games, enough that I want them to be as good as they can be. I feel I have higher expectations for CA than they have for themselves.

[Praylak]

If they came right out and said "we are making a patch", then they would be hounded to death for a release date. Fact is we don't know whats going on behind the curtains at CA, and Activision is staying hush.

The King death bug is a drag on the end product to an extent. They know this and can't be satisfied with leaving it as is. Everything in my gut tells me a patch will be made.

[FesterShinetop]

Well, they can at least give some indication IF they are releasing a patch...

Well, I am gonna buy RTW, and yes, of course there are going to be bugs in it. But if CA/Activision won't patch VI and they won't give some decent support for RTW then that is gonna be the last of my money CA/Activision will ever see.

But for now... GIVE ME RTW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Rocket_Boy]

Yesss patch on the way
Just goes to show that if enough people http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif enough in a constructive manner, it gets results.

[solypsist]

it was very frustrating to read this and similar threads while knowing there was a highly likely chance of a patch forthcoming. the last few weeks were agony for the Org staff.

good work, guys.

happy to say, thread closed