Florins

[Swoosh So]

This must have been asked 1000 times but id like to know so that i can think up some armies b4 i get back online.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

For VI 2.01, the jury is still out... Expect anything between 5 and 15k.

Most games are likely to be around 10/15k. Don't expect too much from spears at those level...

And eventually to help thinking about armies, may I recommand using this nice tool?

Almicar army builder (http://personales.ya.com/almircar/)

Louis,

[Mithrandir]

12k

[Swoosh So]

Are upgrades still allowed?

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

yes... up to v4a3w3....

Louis,

[Swoosh So]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif bah i was hoping we'd lose them in the patch. So i guess alot of battles are still guessing games (guessing what units the opponent has pumped up with wep/armour sigh*

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

then play with low florins... there will be less upgrades, and they are likely to be valor one.

Also; no valor upgrade in battle made valor upgrade at selection more valuable; you can't rely on in battle valor upgrade to boost your cav in MP (and that's different from SP).

Louis,

Edit for typos

[CBR]

Most are still 15k, some are playing 10k (which is really just 15k with 2 less morale) and a few wackos are divided between 5-8k

No Swoosh there is no guessing work really. If you play 10-15k just buy 4 cav, 8 pumped up swords and 4 missile. Most upgrades are the same..2-3 for your swords. You could go nuts and try 6 cav or only 2 cav with 2 anti-cav foot or even 4 cav, 6 swords and 2 anti-cav, but still no big surprises in upgrading.

CBR

[Mithrandir]

Just had a few 8.5k games. Quite fun.
No less or more fun than 10,12 or 15k though.

I dont seem to notice a huge change, except cav seems quite powerful the lower the fl goes...

[spacecadet]

I can see 10k games becoming the average. By the way, spears ARE good at 10k.

I been taking 3 spears, 4 swords, 3 missile, 3 heavy cav and 3 cav archers. Average infantry cost at 10k being 700(ish)florins. An army for all occasions. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif

Space http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Orda Khan]

I prefer to spend koku these days

.......Orda

[Kongamato]

I like 10k and in the Early era. I like the missile skirmishing component better in that era than I do in the others. Light cav and archers can help dent the enemy's swords.

I wonder about 15k. What do you get at 15k that you don't get at 20k?

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

I'd go further

What do you get at 20k that you don't get at 30k?

Louis,

[Kongamato]

You're absolutely right Louie. 30-40k is the bright future that has been promised to this troubled community. Nice, strong, all infantry armies that work according to the great tradition of mutually assured destruction, militias of REAL MEN who do not rout even when a lance impales them from behind, and the great teamwork generated by creating huge, unflankable sword walls that collide into one another. My gosh... how can you not say "GG" to that?


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Actually, I'd really like to know what is different from 15k at 20k. And then, we can go on and ask what is different from 20k at 25k+.

[TosaInu]

200-4,000 florins.

[TosaInu]

And 4,000-80,000

[tootee]

Yesterday I played one 8k, two 10k and a couples of 15k games.

All armies still the same, but at lower florins the game seems to benefit more those who can hit the keys and move the mouse faster... my mate Justy loves it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

At 10k, it does feel a bit like old MTW v1.1.

Can't say much about RPS.. swords is still more cost effective... but with cav and maa generally at morale 8 for 10k games, the cav becomes more useful if one can quickly overwhelm isolated swords with cav.. in 15k the sword tend to stay longer till reinforcement arrived (benefitting the slower ones)

I would say they're all fun in different ways.

[tootee]

but the most frequently hosted games I saw were still 15k and 20k.. so dont get fooled by the poll Swoosh

[Brutal DLX]

I don't play anything over 15k. 15 k or lower I don't have a preference, I rather look for who's playing than at which florin level..
By the way, I'd also like to have a game with the famous Swoosh, where do I have to line up? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Swoosh So]

Lol ill be on on thursday, im lining up games with tosa and hopefully the deadly shingen feel free to join or we could try some 1v1. I think 12000 florins sounds about right.

[Brutal DLX]

Thursday. Alright http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Team games are much more fun if you ask me, but I'll take whatever I can get http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

I take that those living on the wrong side of the pond won't have their chance http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

I like the poll results; I'd like to know in which timezone ppl who answered are, because there is a clear disconnect between what is said and what is played http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I'd like to play in the 5/8 range. But I see a lot of 10/15.

Louis,

[Brutal DLX]

CET here. I basically see mostly 15k games.

[Znake]

8k-10k now starting work well for me..had some nice games:)

[Alrowan]

i try to shift away from 15k as much as i can. ive got a love for about 7-8k now

[AMPage]

I mostly join any games with any amount of florins from 5k to 20k. It dosn't matter to me really what i play since the balance still isn't all the great, even though it is a bit better with the patch. I just play whatever and not take it nearly as serious as i use to in stw and stw:mi, but hey maybe that's a good thing not to take it serious.

[Dionysus9]

Amp,

I pretty much do the same-- I like all florin levels and adjust my unit selection accordingly. I tend to play around 10k when I host myself, but if people complain and want 8k or 15k, then I oblige.

I think its good not to take it so seriously. With the +2 morale there is much more luck anyway. You can't take gambling games too seriously and for all its skill there is still a LOT of luck in MTW.

[Swoosh So]

Amp will you be on on thursday? i enjoyed the games we played in my last visit to mtw http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[CBR]

Quote[/b] (Dionysus9 @ Oct. 25 2003,04:01)]With the +2 morale there is much more luck anyway. You can't take gambling games too seriously and for all its skill there is still a LOT of luck in MTW.
What do you mean by luck?


CBR

[Puzz3D]

luck (noun), That which happens to one seemingly by chance.

[baz]

if you look at the foyer most games are still at the 15k mark .. but things will change hopefully because more and more are dropping to around 10k (some lower), at this level we have a lot of the veteran players .. the most important thing is trying to persuade the clans to play at this level aswell time will tell http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif but i think we should play at maximum 10k each http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Better than a poll...



http://www.thiep.com/~ffmtw/iB_html/uploads/post-19-74114-betterthanapoll.JPG



Louis,

[Kongamato]

I do not care what others host. I tend to host 10k games, and I really hope people wont shy away because it's not "popular" or "cool".

Problem is, when you host a non-clan game, you have to have ronins join, because clans sure as hell won't. Once you get maybe 2 or 3 ronins, your game has enough staying power to draw more passive individuals in, and maybe even clan members. Unfortunately, there are many ronins out there that rout at the sight of anything beneath 15k.

[Cheetah]

What I really dont understand that why you guys want to dropp the florin level to 5k-10k, whereas this level favours the christian heavy inf., heavy cavalry even more than 15k.

I know that you are fed up with the sword/cav armies at 15k and want a more balanced game. However, the 5k-10k range is even more unbalanced The problem of balance CANNOT BE SOLVED by changing the florin amount.

[Kongamato]

Well, would the lower rout point of swords make the kills some missiles or hybrids get that much more effective? I'd like to know, as I've never really seen anyone try this.

[CBR]

Quote[/b] (Cheetah @ Oct. 31 2003,16:59)]I know that you are fed up with the sword/cav armies at 15k and want a more balanced game. However, the 5k-10k range is even more unbalanced
So if 15k is dominated by cav and sword how can lower florin be more unbalanced? I dont see lower florin games being dominated by one unit alone.

Heavy units get better but you have fewer of them. I have had lots of succes with light armies simply because of quantity, there is no such thing when you have money for 16 heavy elite units.

Yes florins alone cant make this game perfectly balanced but maybe try and play and understand the low florin games instead. I see several pro 15k who are very busy talking about how bad low florin games are..

CBR

[Puzz3D]

Cheetah,

You could solve the faction imbalance by having all players take the same faction. In v1.0, all players were forced to take different factions and many though a modification, which was made in v1.1, to allow players to take the same faction was a great idea. You could bring the morale up +2 from 5k, by playing with all v1 units at 8.5k, and that would limit the christian cav knights the same way they are limited in 5k. The ranged units would be relatively cheaper at all v1 as well with the discounts. You could go to all v2 games at 15k to get more morale up +4 from the 5k level and ranged units would get even cheaper relative to hth inf and cav. The RPS might suffer a bit at this v2 level since it's morale dependent in some areas. I agree with you that just changing florins with no rules isn't enough. Of course, to those who feel that infantry should have higher morale than cavalry, these ideas won't be acceptable.

The v2.01 game is final now. We can try to find a more balanced place to play the game or just forget about it and play at 15k. It does seem to me that most players are not interested in finding a more balanced game and 15k is good enough for them; i.e. find the best unit and take a lot of them.

[Orda Khan]

Quote[/b] (Cheetah @ Oct. 31 2003,15:59)]What I really dont understand that why you guys want to dropp the florin level to 5k-10k, whereas this level favours the christian heavy inf., heavy cavalry even more than 15k.

I know that you are fed up with the sword/cav armies at 15k and want a more balanced game. However, the 5k-10k range is even more unbalanced The problem of balance CANNOT BE SOLVED by changing the florin amount.
Sorry Cheetah I can't agree. The amount of success I had at 5k with an infantry based Turkish army tells me otherwise

.......Orda

[Cheetah]

Quote[/b] (CBR @ Oct. 31 2003,10:21)]
Quote[/b] (Cheetah @ Oct. 31 2003,16:59)]I know that you are fed up with the sword/cav armies at 15k and want a more balanced game. However, the 5k-10k range is even more unbalanced

So if 15k is dominated by cav and sword how can lower florin be more unbalanced?

It is even more dominated by cav and sword http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


Quote[/b] (CBR @ Oct. 31 2003,10:21)]I dont see lower florin games being dominated by one unit alone.

That is becasue only those players play 5k-10k games who are fed up with the sword/cav armies on the first place They switch to 5k-10k to try something different. I think that you could get the same enjoyable (or even more enjoyable http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif) games with the same people playing 15k.


Quote[/b] (CBR @ Oct. 31 2003,10:21)]Heavy units get better but you have fewer of them. I have had lots of succes with light armies simply because of quantity, there is no such thing when you have money for 16 heavy elite units.

Well, this depends on the florin level. At 10k you can get 15 decent heavy units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif In contrast, this is impossible at 15k


Quote[/b] (CBR @ Oct. 31 2003,10:21)]Yes florins alone cant make this game perfectly balanced but maybe try and play and understand the low florin games instead. I see several pro 15k who are very busy talking about how bad low florin games are..
CBR

Well, this was my second comment on florin levels (not in this thread but in all of the threads), so yes, please call me "pro 15k who are very busy talking about how bad low florin games are" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

And, yes, I have tried low florin games.

[Cheetah]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Oct. 31 2003,10:27)]Cheetah,

You could solve the faction imbalance by having all players take the same faction. In v1.0, all players were forced to take different factions and many though a modification, which was made in v1.1, to allow players to take the same faction was a great idea. You could bring the morale up +2 from 5k, by playing with all v1 units at 8.5k, and that would limit the christian cav knights the same way they are limited in 5k. The ranged units would be relatively cheaper at all v1 as well with the discounts. You could go to all v2 games at 15k to get more morale up +4 from the 5k level and ranged units would get even cheaper relative to hth inf and cav. The RPS might suffer a bit at this v2 level since it's morale dependent in some areas. I agree with you that just changing florins with no rules isn't enough. Of course, to those who feel that infantry should have higher morale than cavalry, these ideas won't be acceptable.

The v2.01 game is final now. We can try to find a more balanced place to play the game or just forget about it and play at 15k. It does seem to me that most players are not interested in finding a more balanced game and 15k is good enough for them; i.e. find the best unit and take a lot of them.

As suggested before (by Louis and by me) the best solution is to put a max v2 on sword and axe units. This way you can play at 15k and get the nice morale, yet sword/axe units would not dominate the game.

An overall v2 cap would be a heavy blow for the turkish hybrid units, imho it would cripple the playability of the turkish army.

[Cheetah]

Quote[/b] (Orda Khan @ Oct. 31 2003,10:30)]
Quote[/b] (Cheetah @ Oct. 31 2003,15:59)]What I really dont understand that why you guys want to dropp the florin level to 5k-10k, whereas this level favours the christian heavy inf., heavy cavalry even more than 15k.

I know that you are fed up with the sword/cav armies at 15k and want a more balanced game. However, the 5k-10k range is even more unbalanced The problem of balance CANNOT BE SOLVED by changing the florin amount.
Sorry Cheetah I can't agree. The amount of success I had at 5k with an infantry based Turkish army tells me otherwise

.......Orda
Well, it depends on a lot of things, notably on your opposition. But given the fact that the turkish hybrid army is much stronger at 15k than at 10k (or below), I would suggest you to play the turks at 15k, you should have at least the same amount of success. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Kongamato]

If you cap swords at V2, where do you spend the leftover money? I'm not trying to make a point with this question, I'd just like an answer.

[tgi01]

Hosting between 8k - 10k these days ... both feel ok ...



TGI

[Puzz3D]

Cheetah,

The suggested v2 limit on swords was also on missle, so that's going to weaken Turks as well. I don't think you can bring faction imbalance in as a reason not to try to address more basic issues. Faction imbalance can be solved by playing the same faction as the opponent.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Quote[/b] (Cheetah @ Oct. 31 2003,12:07)]As suggested before (by Louis and by me) the best solution is to put a max v2 on sword and axe units. This way you can play at 15k and get the nice morale, yet sword/axe units would not dominate the game.

An overall v2 cap would be a heavy blow for the turkish hybrid units, imho it would cripple the playability of the turkish army.
That's one possible solution. Is it the best solution? I certainly don't know. I have not played a single game with that rule and now thinks it's more of an intellectual hypothesys that anything else. It might be good, it might be fun, but it's not going to be played by anyone but a very small group (even smaller than 5k fan) even if it's great...

Kongamato ask a good question; where are you going to put the extra florins? Spears? Cav? Do you need the extra florins in the first place? A good way to cap sword at v2 is to play at low fl http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif... But the best way to know the answer is to play game and to see what players actually pick...

I would not cry too much on the Turks in the 5/10k range... There are possible alternatives to hybrid at lower fl level, (why not an all cav army or semi all cav?). And even at v2 JI and Futu are not too bad... And with sword capped to v2, JHI may have an increased life expectancy. A copy paste of ANY army from 15k is not likely to work; true for the turk, and true for any other army.
A few other factions got more problem than the Turks. Russians seem awfully tough. There is just no good inf in sight for them in high if they can't pump up MS enough. A 15k Russian sword v2 max army is in for a lot of trouble... So is a 5K Russian army... But in the latter case the additional edge cav got at low fl give them additional chance (although possibly not enough).

Louis,

[t1master]

Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ Oct. 30 2003,23:14)]Better than a poll...



http://www.thiep.com/~ffmtw/iB_html/uploads/post-19-74114-betterthanapoll.JPG



Louis,
hehe i see lahll's 'just say no game' made your list... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

i've had fun at numerous florin levels, 5k all the way to 20k, and that's really what is important to me. imho, enjoyable games come more from 'honest' opponents and teammates, not florin levels.

[Cheetah]

Quote[/b] (Kongamato @ Oct. 31 2003,11:23)]If you cap swords at V2, where do you spend the leftover money? I'm not trying to make a point with this question, I'd just like an answer.

Well, the theory is that it should go into the spears. The practice is that there is no practice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif But I expect people to buy v2w1 or even v2w2 swords, so not much leftover, and I guess it will be spent on pumped up archers or perhaps on cavs. But having played no such game as yet, it is really difficult to tell.

[Kongamato]

Quote[/b] ]Well, the theory is that it should go into the spears. The practice is that there is no practice But I expect people to buy v2w1 or even v2w2 swords, so not much leftover, and I guess it will be spent on pumped up archers or perhaps on cavs. But having played no such game as yet, it is really difficult to tell.

Well, would you like to find out?

[Cheetah]

Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ Oct. 31 2003,12:54)]
Quote[/b] (Cheetah @ Oct. 31 2003,12:07)]As suggested before (by Louis and by me) the best solution is to put a max v2 on sword and axe units. This way you can play at 15k and get the nice morale, yet sword/axe units would not dominate the game.

An overall v2 cap would be a heavy blow for the turkish hybrid units, imho it would cripple the playability of the turkish army.
That's one possible solution. Is it the best solution? I certainly don't know. I have not played a single game with that rule and now thinks it's more of an intellectual hypothesys that anything else. It might be good, it might be fun, but it's not going to be played by anyone but a very small group (even smaller than 5k fan) even if it's great...,

Alright, alright, it is not the BEST solution http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif But I agree, we should host such games otherwise it is just a fruitless discussion.


Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ Oct. 31 2003,12:54)]Kongamato ask a good question; where are you going to put the extra florins? Spears? Cav? Do you need the extra florins in the first place? A good way to cap sword at v2 is to play at low fl http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif... But the best way to know the answer is to play game and to see what players actually pick.

I think that you need extra florins for real good spears. Decent spears (at 15k) starts at 1100+, but a good one costs 1400+. Of course this is not to say that players will spend the extra money (if there is any) on spears.



Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ Oct. 31 2003,12:54)]I would not cry too much on the Turks in the 5/10k range... There are possible alternatives to hybrid at lower fl level, (why not an all cav army or semi all cav?). And even at v2 JI and Futu are not too bad... And with sword capped to v2, JHI may have an increased life expectancy. A copy paste of ANY army from 15k is not likely to work; true for the turk, and true for any other army.

I am not saying that v2 JI or futtuwa is not good, just a v2 CMAA is even better. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif In other words turks lose more than the christian armies if there is v2 cap.

[Cheetah]

Quote[/b] (Kongamato @ Oct. 31 2003,14:21)]
Quote[/b] ]Well, the theory is that it should go into the spears. The practice is that there is no practice But I expect people to buy v2w1 or even v2w2 swords, so not much leftover, and I guess it will be spent on pumped up archers or perhaps on cavs. But having played no such game as yet, it is really difficult to tell.

Well, would you like to find out?
sure http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Hehe... Sure I would... but not before next monday....

It would be interesting to try to test it keeping in mind a willingness to abuse the system http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Spending lavishly on spears (v3 order foot here we go&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif... or cav (V2 CK Or 10+ cav armies), or trying v2w3 sword, etc... Being a little extrem, not just trying to have a 'nice, fair and cute' game.

Starting at 15k, to see how extra money get spent.

Might possibly be fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Louis,

[Kongamato]

Obviously, we are both in front of computers at the present time. If you can play right now, confirm with a response to this and I(DamnedThingofFear) will go online and wait for you.

EDIT: I am going online right now.

[Cheetah]

The DamnedThingofFear http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif hello Damned See you online http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Obviously, I'm at work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Good luck and have fun

Louis,

[Orda Khan]

Quote[/b] (t1master @ Oct. 31 2003,19:01)]
Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ Oct. 30 2003,23:14)]Better than a poll...



http://www.thiep.com/~ffmtw/iB_html/uploads/post-19-74114-betterthanapoll.JPG



Louis,
hehe i see lahll's 'just say no game' made your list... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

i've had fun at numerous florin levels, 5k all the way to 20k, and that's really what is important to me. imho, enjoyable games come more from 'honest' opponents and teammates, not florin levels.
So very true.......Well said

.....Orda

[Kongamato]

Quote[/b] (Orda Khan @ Nov. 02 2003,11:45)]
Quote[/b] ]i've had fun at numerous florin levels, 5k all the way to 20k, and that's really what is important to me. imho, enjoyable games come more from 'honest' opponents and teammates, not florin levels.
So very true.......Well said

.....Orda
Indeed, the people are what matters. It's impossible to achieve any sort of balance when there are people out there who know only how to exploit the game's imbalances and have made a career out of it. If you want a good balance, you can enforce 15k house rules or play at lower florins. There will be exploiters and people who wont follow your rules, but there's always the BAN and PW options. Ban the bad eggs, and you will be able to play the way you like. IMO It's better than playing at some high florin level just to spite whoever used cav in 1.1 or 2.0, or in order to create a sluggish style where tactical inadequacies are not punished.

[Swoosh So]

I dont understand players who play 15k with high valor units its naff http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif too high morale and not enoough skill involved, skill comes from risky battles whats risky about having high morale? u can make numerous mistakes and sometimes win, if a player makes mistakes they deserve to lose http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Swoosh So]

Stange 8 12.5k wins the battle yes all i see are 15k games, i was told by one enthusiastic 15k peep that only i and very few others 10 infact in the whole community support games under 15k?

[Kongamato]

Yeah, it appears that if you want a game with skilled people you're going to have to face certain Wolves, Kenchis, and Mizus. Did you expect anything different?

Really, I feel that at 15k you only learn how to collide sword lines and _maybe_ win by flanking. There's no real planning or tactics involved, only going through the motions and imagining you are a general.

This florin story is not over yet, to get to the end we'll have to turn many more pages.

[Swoosh So]

Quote[/b] (Kongamato @ Nov. 12 2003,14:39)]Really, I feel that at 15k you only learn how to collide sword lines and _maybe_ win by flanking. There's no real planning or tactics involved, only going through the motions and imagining you are a general.
Kongamato i could kiss u lol

Finally a peep sees the truth in 15k



Swoooooooooooooooooooooooosh

Fear the wolves

[Tempiic]

Quote[/b] (Kongamato @ Nov. 12 2003,16:39)]Yeah, it appears that if you want a game with skilled people you're going to have to face certain Wolves, Kenchis, and Mizus. Did you expect anything different?
Add FF to that one too, eventhough a few of us still host 15k games as we try to not to focus on one special setting and running the risk of becoming overspecialized (and predicatable)

[Kongamato]

I apologize for the whole exclusive "skilled players" comment, it was a joke but a somewhat poor one. I've gained a great deal of respect for FF during this whole florin war, you dont always win but that does not turn you away from competing at different levels, you people have a good fighting spirit.

The trouble with low florins is that a proper decision on an unprepared enemy can result in a completely resounding victory. Many do not see "skill" in this, it did not require enough clicking and goes too fast. However, when you are prepared and specialized enough to take on cav, missiles, and infantry, battles can last a very long time and require a good deal of thought.

[1dread1lahll]

This debate is older than Swoosh it seems, as she has either failed to follow old posts or is 'back' so resently as to not to know better.. But to declair that playing at 10k (or less) requires skill and 15K does not, smacks of out-right aristrocratic snobbiry, "I'm better cause I play at 5-10k", pardon moders but thats bullshit.. 5k is DIFFERENT not better...Swoosh tops the poll out at 15k as if thats high florins, it tops out at 99999k; and a load of people host that amount. I dont host at that amount but I dont look down some long nose at them for it...Ive played at 5k 7k 10k and others,....I ran many posts on it and stated that low florins gives many advantages to hill campers and clans fighting ronin and noobs that dont know that they are walking into a sucker game. The people calling 5 7 or 10 THE florin level ive seen dont host 1v1 games attacking any sort of hills. Low florins shifts the imbalances of the game to different units nothing more, The statement that people playing at 15k just rush at each other like oxes is just about the stupidest statement ive seen on these forums.

[tootee]

imo.

different florins means different ball games.

there is definitely no correlation between florin level and how skilled a player is.. if you do not win as often @ 15k Swoosh, then maybe you are not as polished in a particular skill-set at that florin level, e.g. Kongamato's collide sword lines and _maybe_ win by flanking as an example.

quoting Kongamato
Quote[/b] ]There's no real planning or tactics involved, only going through the motions and imagining you are a general.

that is just too sweeping a statement.. trying performing that 'skill' on Magy's balanced army @ 15k.. I'm pretty sure you will need REAL planning and tactics than simply rushing in the 8 swords and flanking with some cav.

winning 100% @ 5k doesnt make one a truly all-round skilled player.. just skilled @ 5k. at least in my definition, the ultimate truly skilled understands the game so well, that (s)he can win at any florin levels, and exploiting all the game's 'flaws' *not cheat*.

its a pretty bad culture to see players with preference for certain settings condemning the other camps. it is not constructive to the process of making the TW engine more appealing to most, if not all, of the current and potential players.

[Kongamato]

I'll retract the "skill" comments, as they may have offended some people.

It looks like a large portion of the community sees skill and victory as nothing but the exploitation of a game engine. If that is true, then maybe I ought to go play another game because it would be no different from this one and would probably have better graphics and service.

My opinion at this time is that the lower florin settings place a greater emphasis and diversity in employing and defeating methods of protection from the combined threats of cavalry, missiles, and infantry, encouraging creativity in overcoming a unique set of obstacles every game. The lower morale makes everything more volatile, and as a result there are great punishments in assaulting defensive positions and not protecting oneself properly. The problem lies there, as many do not last very long if they make a mistake or attack a hill with equal strength. To me, high morale seems like fighting with pillows, low morale like fighting with knives, on most occasions it's going to end faster and is not very accessible to amateurs. It is a loaded game if you do not know what to look out for.

[tootee]

Quote[/b] (Kongamato @ Nov. 13 2003,06:13)]... high morale seems like fighting with pillows, low morale like fighting with knives, on most occasions it's going to end faster and is not very accessible to amateurs ...
like i've said.. being able to handle low morale army doesnt make one better, or more profession than one more apt in handling higher morale army... only when you also beat him at his homecourt... its like saying a thai kickboxer is more professional than a taiji master because his games is faster, inferring that he needs to think and react faster, and therefore is more tactically surperior? hmm....

are 15K games less tactical than 10K or 5k games? It seems to be the main point of your arguement.. I think it is too much to generalise it so.

[Swoosh So]

Oh my aristocratic snobbery? i dont win as much at 15k games? seems i cant have an opinion without either of these comments coming out, A word for u guys its not snobbery and i win as much at both games types and lose as much at both game types, as for the highest set being 99999 florins dont be daft we both know those sort of games dont even come into the equasion. I find that 15k games are won by good army selection and i dont get a feeling that i won at 15k because i played better, but at lower florins i get that feeling of oh i did well there. I just feel that at 15k you can make 3-4 mistakes in a game and still win it just seems silly to me, But hey who am i to judge i am a snob if you want to play these sort of games thats upto you, But i prefer to lose if i make mistakes.

And the part about low florins give advantage to hill campers, hills give advantage to hill campers, anyway its good to give opponents advantages in games especially when weve been around as long as alot of us here have, Play the wolves 2v2 in a 9k game and you shall receive 1k extra for each player. Not because we dont respect these players but because we choose to defend so that there is not a situation of camping and the battles are fought on an even scale. As we will advance to meet our opponents.

Sorry if i seem abit snippy but the way your post is worded annoyed me, not once do you address me in your post and talk about swoosh as if i wasent part of the thread, i may have been away along time lahill but ive been reading the forums alot. It doesent take long to get the general feeling of the game although i admit i have a bit to go untill im back to my best. I dont disrespect players who play 15k (kanuni plays it all the time) i just feel theres not as much skill involved (not to say the players who play it dont have skill) it just seems too much of a cushion or safety net for me

Swooooooooooooooooooooooooosh

[Swoosh So]

And with that said i shall pull out of the florin debate. I did not start this thread to create arguements it was started because i was coming back to the game and wasent sure the florin levels being played in vi. i shall have broadband on tuesday and shall be able to host my own games, so i guess it wont effect me in anyway if theres alot of 15k games around.

[Brutal DLX]

I have to say I'm a little torn between the two sentiments here. For one I agree with tootee that this is a rather sweeping statement, but then I also agree with Swoosh and am perfectly sure she can win a lot in 15k games too.
Handling low morale armies is a great skill, but it's also a fact that still the army selection is a great factor. You can play as well as you want, if you took a non standard army just for the fun of it (which I do mostly), and your opponent has calculated the perfect 5k army (or found it by trial and error), chances are you will lose most of the times.
I, for my part, try to play at different florin levels because it's more fun and variable, and because there's nothing more I hate than seeing the same maps and standard armies clash over and over again. Sometimes you just look at your and your allies' vs the opponents' armies and know who's going to win right from the start. That's just bleah
But to each their own, I'd say.

PS: I really like that for example Wolves attack even when defenders. It adds some realism, because who said defenders have just to sit and watch the enemy approach?

[1dread1lahll]

Having played a number of 5k games (low morale) you would have to slow not to note that the units of choice are fedual knights, fedual foot knights ect, all units with normal moral....oops... did I say normal? (back to the pillow fights&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif I played a game where I had such units and the opponent had MAA ect, I did not need to bother with flanking, just frontal attack and wait for his men to reach the rout thresh-hold, lots of skill there I guess....and plz call me lahll (not La Hill), Its hard for Indo-Europeans to pronounce but it is a single syilible, close to lill, or lall, And excuse my own heated retorts on this post, I tend to reply in kind, without much thought to diplomacy....

[Swoosh So]

Id have to disagree with the 5k statement have u played amp at 5k? not a foot knight or feudal knight in sight.

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (Swoosh So @ Nov. 13 2003,09:22)]Id have to disagree with the 5k statement have u played amp at 5k? not a foot knight or feudal knight in sight.
Yeah, he crushed my FFKs with his Byzantine Infantry... Eventhough I managed to rout the first of them.
His only 'pillowed' units were his Varangians, and the battle was more or less over when they entered the fight.

I was mightily impressed by him then.
He handled the morale better than me and outplayed me greatly. It was all about skill...

[Cheetah]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Nov. 13 2003,11:18)]
Quote[/b] (Swoosh So @ Nov. 13 2003,09:22)]Id have to disagree with the 5k statement have u played amp at 5k? not a foot knight or feudal knight in sight.
Yeah, he crushed my FFKs with his Byzantine Infantry... Eventhough I managed to rout the first of them.
His only 'pillowed' units were his Varangians, and the battle was more or less over when they entered the fight.

I was mightily impressed by him then.
He handled the morale better than me and outplayed me greatly. It was all about skill...

Yeah, but have you played him at 15k or back in STW/MI? I am sure you would be equally impressed.
That is what tootee is talking about, a skilled player will outclass you on any florin level. It proves nothing except the obvious (i.e. AMP is skilled player).

[Tempiic]

Quote[/b] (Kongamato @ Nov. 12 2003,20:47)]I apologize for the whole exclusive "skilled players" comment, it was a joke but a somewhat poor one. I've gained a great deal of respect for FF during this whole florin war, you dont always win but that does not turn you away from competing at different levels, you people have a good fighting spirit.
Thanks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Back in 1.1 we played in the 12-25 range... now it seems we play in the 5-15 range... Sadly we play 5k as often as we played 12k, not much thus http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I personally do not believe in overspecialization and I think we grow better just by playing at different settings all the time, as that forces you think about what really matters as well as relying on improvisation and flexibility rather than relying on the same army composition over and over again on the same settings.

When florins change, the only two things that need to change with it are timing and composition

[Kraxis]

Yes, I know his skills.

Never played him before that though. And I was sure I would lose, until I began to rout his forces, but then he managed to do something I haven't been able to do with low morale troops in 5k games... stop a massrout before it became one. And I'm basically what you can call a 5k player, I'm very observant towards my morale.

Before 5k games it didn't help me much, but now it does.

[Puzz3D]

There is no need to be fielding units with morale higher than 8 in this game, and highly defensive units such as spears can be much lower than 8. 10k is all you really need for that. It's not a question of attacking hills. It's a question of achieving a balance between attrition and position. If you can charge into the back of a unit with one of the stronger cav types and that unit doesn't rout, you are playing with too much morale.

[Swoosh So]

Amp doesent really play 15k ive played with him almost every night for a week now and hes never hosted 15k he prefers the low florin games. his fav is 5k i think not sure.

[Cheetah]

Yeah, I know, he prefers games in which he has a chance to chainrout more than one armies. This is really difficult or near impossible at 15k. But trust me he played a lot of 15k games. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[AMPage]

Hi All,

My favorite amount of florins is 5k - 8k, but i'll play higher just to get in a game.

That's right i like lower florin games where you have the chance to chain rout armies. It kinda sucks in the higher florin games where you fight one army and both your allies lost that most likely to lose also. I like to atleast have a small chance of winning when i'm out numbered about 2 to 1...

Would be even easier to chain rout armies if we had powerful missile units as strong as the muskets in stw and stw:mi. Also for lower florins we are missing the wonder spear that can drop cav fast enough. Right now spears are really just holding units, which they should also drop cav faster, especially when they are charged by cav head on.

[tootee]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Nov. 13 2003,22:54)]If you can charge into the back of a unit with one of the stronger cav types and that unit doesn't rout, you are playing with too much morale.
totally agree on this point.. its pretty unrealistic when I see a CMAA@v3 fighting other units, and in came a cav at its rear.. its took like 15-20 sec *size around 50* for it to start routing? not too sure of the duration but i feel its too unrealistic long, even for seasoned and elite soldiers. i prefer they rout in 4 to 6sec... i mean.. for sure CMAA@v3 should be real elite soldiers.. but I dont think they have eyes on their back and fight facing backward as proficiently as frontally? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

maybe its not that morale is too high? cos frontally its still feel ok for CMAA@v3 .. higher morale mean the unit tends to fight to a smaller size *frontally* before starting to waver.

probably double the penalty/bonus for attack in the rear/flank may improve the gameplay *at 12 to 15K*.

[ichi]

It finally dawned on me that there is no such thing as 'best' when it comes to florin level, era, map, faction, version of Total War, and few other things.

I went back to MTW and found lots of very high florin games, and enjoyed them immensely. Louis has convinced me that low florin games make spears more balanced, and improve other aspects of game play. Lahll correctly points out that at low florin games morale makes a big difference on hills and in desert or snow.

What matters most to me now is to have fun and to connect with others in the online community.

The strategies and tactics that are best vary between factions, terrain, and florin levels. It is in learning the tricks, and sharing them, that I find the most pleasure.

It matters more how we respond to the various situations, how we use the troops we can afford on the terrain upon which we fight.

ichi