Command and Control on MP [Archive]

tootee

02-03-2002, 00:41

What types of controls do you use during battle? Whats your main problem?

Currently I only use

1. Grouping (no ctrl+num). I select the groups by clicking on the screen. Usually I have 5 groups.
2. Alt+left drag to position units/groups
3. Alt+rotate unit/group to change facing
4. Mouse to navigate

My major problem with controls are

1. Going to the unit/group fast enough after clicking, to issue command.
2. Tried using way-point but I have problem going back to the unit after it reaches end point. So it stay idling.
3. Units stay idle in heat of battle. These usually happen when I select a group and alt+click at a spot just in front of the enemy group. While they are on the move, I will select the individual units in the group their target unit. Thing is, at times, I'm not fast enough, and one will stop after reaching location, and I've not select its target (and it get shot at by missile).

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tootee the goldfish
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Shoko

02-03-2002, 01:47

While where on this subject i have a question......
If u pick 4 muskets in this order;

Mus h1 mus h2 mus h3 mus h4 when u group them,then click and drag they dont end up in this order?
How u get them to line up in this order?

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Clan Kenchikuka (http://pub14.ezboard.com/fclankenchikukakenchikukacouncilchamber)

Krasturak

02-03-2002, 02:46

Gah!

Krast always uses the ctrl-number key assignments.

Never uses physical (g-key) groupings except to change the facing of the whole army or large number of units together.

Alt-left drag is Krast's preferred method for placing units. Including number groups.

And mouse navigation, too ... when it gets laggy the keypad navigation can create disorientation.
------
Try going to the unit group by first double-clicking on the big white army banner at the foot odf the screen. That automatically takes the camera to the position immediately behind the unit.

Then you can select the units and issue the orders.

Use the same method for problem 2.

For problem 3 try clicking at a point behind the enemy position. Then your men will move right in and engage the enemy -- although you probably won't get the charge bonus unless you actually issue the precise attack order in time. But the men will fight that way ... or they march through a gap and are set up for a nice rear attack.

Notice that the men are sheltered from missile fire by melee with eneemy troops.

[This message has been edited by Krasturak (edited 02-02-2002).]

Shoko

02-03-2002, 04:49

02-03-2002, 06:42

Sorry Shoko I don't, but I'd like to know the answer too! It's annoying cos I end up with my gen on the right flank...so I have to manually move him.

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TigerSoul So
Twin Tigers (http://www.twintigersclan.homestead.com/index.html)
Clan maps available on downloads page.

tootee

02-03-2002, 08:04

Shoko, I have similar concern which I voiced out on a thread in MTW.

I have a group of A B C D layout in order. I 'de-group' B, and alt+left on the group to move it to a new position, say front. Instead of staying in A C D order, it usually becomes D C A!

Krast, thanks for your tips on my problem 3.

I also notice vet using this method after reviewing recorded battles. But question is, in this way when your units contacted enemy units with the destination behind them, your units will not engage but will be in moving stance, while the enemy is hacking at it.
Maybe this is still better than stopping in front of the missile and at shot at point-blank.

Another question. It is possible to alt+left drag a group such that the group will move off in double quick time without applying the run key? 'cos I will reassign the run key to [z] (hate ctrl+r), but it seems buggy (sometimes they don't run before I hit [z] several times).

Krasturak

02-03-2002, 08:58

Gah!

Krast's answer to the musket problem is this: make them all hon 5. Then they will line up fine ... and stay there!

For the ABCD, yeah, it's wierd ... try using AB group and CD group, then they go where you want them -- but you have to order each group.

Actually, these methods have a big effect on play style .... when Krast discovered the reverse ABCD --> DBAC effect, he stopped using large groups.

After a left-drag you have to give the run command. Works fine in SP but in MP it lags ... so you don't see the effect right away. Not sure if multiple ctrl-r commands create problems, but one is enough.

Same with rally, actually. You only have to issue one rally command, not a million. It just lags a little.

MagyarKhans Cham

02-03-2002, 10:54

for me the game speed is a bit too high

esp in teh heat of battle. the speed in the demo was better i think.

my khan uses just 4 groups since his keyboard handling kinda suck.

he uses the order of which they appear in a row like h1 h2 musk as a given fact.

a part of the skill is how u micromanaga things so try to make priorities on what is important and what is less important.

after u msatered things like the shoot out and the rush to get to your enemy, making the right decisions when hth starts becomes highly important. A little luck is needed as well.

tootee

02-03-2002, 12:50

Quote Originally posted by Krasturak:

Try going to the unit group by first double-clicking on the big white army banner at the foot odf the screen. That automatically takes the camera to the position immediately behind the unit.

[/QUOTE]

I use that too, but the camera move is still too slow for me. Usually what I do is double-click (it starts to zoom to unit), and hit [-], and camera immediate jumps to the unit. But is there a single key stroke that literally bring you to that unit, without all the camera motion.

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tootee the goldfish
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Shoko

02-03-2002, 19:15

Quote Originally posted by Shoko:
While where on this subject i have a question......
If u pick 4 muskets in this order;

Mus h1 mus h2 mus h3 mus h4 when u group them,then click and drag they dont end up in this order?
How u get them to line up in this order?

[/QUOTE]I have worked out how to get ur guns etc in the correct order! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Also same for melee units it took me hours to work this 1 out.
It very complicated but u get the hang of it.
Order picking for guns is different from picking ur mellee.I dont know why this is?
Really hard to xplain.
Pick 4 guns last when buying units!
Try this h1 h2 h3 h4. OK
When game begins they should look like this!
h4 h3 h2 h1.
OK now CTRL left click.. h4,h1,h2,h3.....
Now ALT left click drag........

Now they line up like this h4,h3,h2,h1.
For melee its much more complex but ive worked it out! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gifCant really xplain this 1 far to hard. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

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Clan Kenchikuka (http://pub14.ezboard.com/fclankenchikukakenchikukacouncilchamber)

Kocmoc

02-03-2002, 19:35

i posted my standart army already....

i use normaly 7 or 8 hotkeys and i change groups in battle, it depends on the situation

the "G" key i just use to mve my whole army in formation, in other way i dont use this button...

krast u do a fatal error, how i could read in ur post, plz speak to me if u see me online i want to explain it privat...

i dont have probs with using my army, i just wished there where some more butons, like

line up-button, this means if i use 4 guns and select them all the puter "say" which unit is frist, wich second.... sometimes if u regroop this units or splitt up the right unit move left or the left move right ...this costs men and time...

same if u group 2 nd and 1 monk (example) mostly the higher honourunit is setup inside
i wished i could say wich unit is where...

koc

Shoko

02-04-2002, 00:06

Quote Originally posted by Kocmoc:

same if u group 2 nd and 1 monk (example) mostly the higher honourunit is setup inside
i wished i could say wich unit is where...

koc[/QUOTE]Kocmoc if u group these 2nd and 1 monk u can line them up in which order u want!
Ctrl and left click each unit,then group them.Alt Click and drag........
Now try CTRL left click each unit in a different order.Then group and drag as before,they line up different.
Like i said it can be done,u just need to click them in the correct order.Took me hours to work the system out.
So if i have ND1 ND2 ND3 Monk1 Monk2 Monk3.
I can line them up in which order i like http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
ie;MK1 ND1 MK2 MK3 ND2 ND3.
It very strange how it works to get them to line up in correct order.
Maybe this could be implimented in MEvalW
So they line up as u see them in the Panel?
Would make life mich easier http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Gah! also Kocmoc why talk to Krast about his fatal error?Why not post here about it,to help others not make these kind of mistakes? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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Clan Kenchikuka (http://pub14.ezboard.com/fclankenchikukakenchikukacouncilchamber)

Krasturak

02-04-2002, 03:14

Quote Originally posted by tootee:

I use that too, but the camera move is still too slow for me. Usually what I do is double-click (it starts to zoom to unit), and hit [-], and camera immediate jumps to the unit. But is there a single key stroke that literally bring you to that unit, without all the camera motion.

[/QUOTE]

After you do the double-click, any camera command, scroll, tilt, anything ... imediately puts the camera view there. Or you can let it fly across the field.

[This message has been edited by Krasturak (edited 02-03-2002).]

Krasturak

02-04-2002, 03:21

Quote Originally posted by Kocmoc:

same if u group 2 nd and 1 monk (example) mostly the higher honourunit is setup inside
i wished i could say wich unit is where...

koc[/QUOTE]

Gah! ... Krast has found that the sequence of selection has an effect on their placement.

Try a group of two Dach and one Monk.

Some times, the Monk is in the middle, sometimes on the end ...

It depends which one you click first to build the group.
--------
Oooops ... Someone else just said that sorry.

[This message has been edited by Krasturak (edited 02-03-2002).]

Shoko

02-04-2002, 03:48

LOL Krast! Yes there is a way........ http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Ive just about got the hang of doin it,all up here in my mind! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif*Shuts Krasts! Coffin*

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Clan Kenchikuka (http://pub14.ezboard.com/fclankenchikukakenchikukacouncilchamber)

Shoko

02-04-2002, 05:25

Hey this could really be a interesting thread plzs all post,we could find some interesting results.
How ya all mov ur armies? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif

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Clan Kenchikuka (http://pub14.ezboard.com/fclankenchikukakenchikukacouncilchamber)

Shoko

02-04-2002, 07:22

Bump!LOL

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Clan Kenchikuka (http://pub14.ezboard.com/fclankenchikukakenchikukacouncilchamber)

tootee

02-04-2002, 08:42

Quote Originally posted by Krasturak:
After you do the double-click, any camera command, scroll, tilt, anything ... imediately puts the camera view there. Or you can let it fly across the field.

[[/QUOTE]

Indeed Krast m8. But [-] is best 'cos other buttom will move the camera ([-] tilt down will still have the unit in focus).

Koc m8, your concern of of the switching musk is my most concerned control issue (i.e. my ABCD problem). Since I don't use ctrl+num, frequently I need to detech units from my group, afterwhich applying the ctrl+left drag to form up the group means the units within the group will switch.. Gah! really annoy me, not only it's a waste of time, it's not logical.

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tootee the goldfish
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tootee

02-04-2002, 08:48

Quote Originally posted by Shoko:
Hey this could really be a interesting thread plzs all post,we could find some interesting results.
How ya all mov ur armies? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif
[/QUOTE]

I think I suffer penalty moving the whole army for not using ctrl+num. All I can do is ctrl+a and move the army to a new position, but I cant group all (the whole army) to change facing, since I'll then lose my groupings. So I gotta change facing for each of my groups (5 normally).

Know any top 100 players that dont use ctrl+num? Maybe I gotta try out this control mechanism.

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tootee the goldfish
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tootee

02-04-2002, 08:51

Quote Originally posted by Shoko:
LOL Krast! Yes there is a way........ http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Ive just about got the hang of doin it,all up here in my mind! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif*Shuts Krasts! Coffin*
[/QUOTE]

Maybe a short explanation here? It's a waste of time for doing double work, since you already have it figured out http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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tootee the goldfish
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Rath

02-04-2002, 10:51

I've never used crtl - number...i rarely even use alt...i just get my groups at the start of the battle and use my mouse for everything except moving the camera. If you know where your groups are at the bottom i dont think u need the number thing.

tootee

02-04-2002, 16:30

alt+left drag is quite useful when you wanna position one unit over another. Have you ever try starting the battle with 16 units all squeezed into one unit space http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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tootee the goldfish
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Rath

02-04-2002, 18:16

Yeh i did it something like that in an all kensai game...16 kensai's morphed into one http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

tootee

02-05-2002, 01:05

Since I'm very interest to know shoko comments, I spent a couple of hrs to find out more and these are what I realised.

1. The units banner at the bottom of screen are listed from left to right in order of

[HC][YC][CA][SA][ARQ][MK][NI][WM][ND][YS][YA][BN][KS][NC]

Within each type, the units are listed from left to right in order of LIFO (last in first out of purchase order).

The followings refer to the selection of units to form group and their resultant formation after alt+left drag. The number within the [] indicate the order of your ctrl+left click when adding to group, [1] means 1st unit added to group.

2. WM, ND, NC (or mix of these)
[4][11][6][13][2][9][16][1][8][15][3][10][7][14][5][12]

3. SA, ARQ, MK (or mix of these)
[6][13][1][8][15][4][11][3][10][5][12][2][9][16][7][14]

4. CA
[1][8][15][3][10][5][12][7][14][6][13][4][11][2][9][16]

5. YC
[1][8][15][6][13][3][10][5][12][14][11][7][14][2][9][16]

6. HC
[2][9][16][6][13][4][11][1][8][15][5][12][7][14][3][10]

7. YS, YA (or mix of these)
[4][11][6][13][1][8][15][3][10][2][9][16][7][14][5][12]

8. NI
[6][13][4][11][2][9][16][1][8][15][3][10][5][12][7][14]

However if you mix say 2. with 7., you get different order.

This explain my ABCD problem complete. E.g. take the case where I form a group of musks in order of adding to group M1 M2 M3 M4.

Alt+left drag will result in formation
M1 M4 M3 M2 (see 3.)

If I 'degroup' unit M1, the group of musks in order of adding to group is M2 M3 M4.

Alt+left drag will result in formation
M2 M4 M3 (what's why all three switch relative positions! Gah illogical)

Just some interesting but probably useless info http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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tootee the goldfish
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Shoko

02-05-2002, 07:17

Pick 4 guns last when buying units!
Try this h1 h2 h3 h4. OK
When game begins they should look like this!
h4 h3 h2 h1.
OK now CTRL left click.. h4,h1,h2,h3.....
Now ALT left click drag........
Now they line up like this h4,h3,h2,h1.
Trust me it does work!But melee units line up different from guns dont ask me why they just do.
Maybe Krast can xplain how it works,i just dont know where to start its complex.But easy when know how http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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Clan Kenchikuka (http://pub14.ezboard.com/fclankenchikukakenchikukacouncilchamber)

Shoko

02-06-2002, 03:29

Does it work tottee?

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Clan Kenchikuka (http://pub14.ezboard.com/fclankenchikukakenchikukacouncilchamber)

tootee

02-06-2002, 09:37

Shoko,

If you are referring to musk thingy, it works. From 3. above, since there's only 4 musk unit, the layout order is

[1][4][3][2] where the number within [] is the order you add the musk to group (ctrl+left click). You can do it even with musk/sa combo.

If you have 5 musk/sa, the layout will be
[1][4][3][5][2]

Cheers!

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tootee the goldfish
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[This message has been edited by tootee (edited 02-06-2002).]

Shoko

02-07-2002, 02:32

I was wondering those ppl who use ctrl numbers 1to0 to move they're armies.
Guns hot-key 5
YS hot-key 4 and so on are thse units then Grouped? (G)KEY..........
.............................................
Another way;
If u just group(G)Key the guns etc, u can select each group u have grouped by holding CTRL... left click on 1 of the grouped units in the panel in front of u,this will get all that group u grouped before battle,thus no need for hotkeying ur units to numbers.Only 1 big problem with this,if have alot of lag it takes forever to get ur mouse pointer down to ur unit panel http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gifAlso this is a big prob if u ALT click and drag ur units into positon.
I would like all vets to post their methods of movement etc.Will help alot of newbie's like myself http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
My method is CTRL A and rush with all http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gifMaybe this is why i lose so much http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif

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Clan Kenchikuka (http://pub14.ezboard.com/fclankenchikukakenchikukacouncilchamber)

Puzz3D

02-07-2002, 03:49

Very helpful info guys on the group order because I tend to group my lines so I can rotate them easily if necessary or advance the line as a whole. If I want to advance a single YS to intecept an enemy cav, I want to pick the closest YS. It's not a problem if my YS is in view, but, if I have to scroll to see them, it wastes precious seconds. Knowing the order will allow me to pick the closest YS from the icons.

I think the most efficient system is the one Kocmoc uses with pairs of units assigned to hotkeys. If you have an extra button on your mouse, you can assign that to CTRL making it easier to select the keyboard numbers. The trick here is to have a system so you know the relative position in your army of each set of hotkeyed units. Hunting around on the number keys for a certain set is inefficient. I think you can assign ungrouped units to a hot key. Once the hth fighting starts, you go to individual unit orders.

I've found that, if you are going to redraw or move a group, it's important to remove routed units before redrawing it. I've also found that redrawing of groups will sometimes not work later on in a battle.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

Shoko

02-07-2002, 04:03

Quote Originally posted by Puzz3D:

I think the most efficient system is the one Kocmoc uses with pairs of units assigned to hotkeys. Hunting around on the number keys for a certain set is inefficient.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[/QUOTE]???Kocmoc uses hotkey numbers 1to0 u say most efficient......Then u say hunting around for number hotkeys is inefficient?
Have i read something wrong here http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif
Are these hotkeys number units grouped?Or just hotkeyed?

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Clan Kenchikuka (http://pub14.ezboard.com/fclankenchikukakenchikukacouncilchamber)

[This message has been edited by Shoko (edited 02-06-2002).]

evilc

02-07-2002, 04:49

different things work for different people, for example with my mouse lag, i would loose a lot without using groups.... i've never used them though... hhmm.

Shoko

02-07-2002, 05:08

Yes this is becomin a interesting topic,many different ways.
Sure 2 help other's and me! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
So which are the most used methods????

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Clan Kenchikuka (http://pub14.ezboard.com/fclankenchikukakenchikukacouncilchamber)

Krasturak

02-07-2002, 11:53

Gah!

Use the number keying for sets of two or three units.

Do not 'group' them.

Know where they are.

Hit keys to select guys.

Send them to cut heads off.

tootee

02-07-2002, 12:07

Quote Originally posted by Shoko:
Are these hotkeys number units grouped?Or just hotkeyed?
[/QUOTE]

I take that you are asking whether hotkeyed units behaves like [g] units?

With respect to the alt+left drag to draw out the formation, the order of adding units (ctrl+left click) before hotkeying or [g] affect the postion of units in the formation in the same way.

I am now adding ctrl+num of my control, but only hotkeying key units, e.g. the YS at both ends, special task forces...

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tootee the goldfish
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Whitey

02-07-2002, 16:21

the way I used to play online...when I played...a very simple method

All my groups are of the unpopular 'g' type...I don't often get mouse lag...I then re-select the units from the banners at the foot of the screen, it is the quickest to set-up (clicks followed by a 'g'), easiest to remember (now were my monks grp 1 or 2?), and easiest to re-order mid battle (yes, believe it or not - I do that too!)

I use Alt-left click to deploy units and to change facing (always have mouse set at max speed)

For camera rotation I use both mouse and k/board in unison - I always keep the map moving...to let the camera stop is to risk un-neccesary defeat...

2 missile unit groups (foot and mounted)
3-5 foot hth unit groups
hth cavalry always ungrouped

I never had the problem that most people had here with unit honours, to me it is a 'permenantly operating factor' that units are bastids when it comes to that...

when moving my army (en. a long way away) I simply select all and click them where the enemy troops are in the distance and while they are moving I order the groups 'on the run' to keep the army co-ordinated.

Approaching combat, I select individual units to attack their chosen target directly (or flank units to move in properly) when the enemy is some distance away then alter when required.

as an aside, I once attempted to hook up my MS Gamevoice jobby to compliment my keyboard and mouse skills, I found that it was limited (slower than just pressing the keyboard) but useful when attempting seldom-used commands (formation change, select all, ungroup, unit stance change, select all missile units/hth units, oob screen etc...). It let you continue scrolling the map with k/board and mouse while giving orders to your units - a kind of three things at once tool. The downside was mentally controlling your 'third hand' which, if anyone who has seriously played the drums will know - isno piece of cake to start with. I got quite proficient but made too many mistakes and didn't have the time to train myself up...but for mtw? longbowmen? maybe...

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"Situation excellente. J'attaque!"

Kocmoc

02-07-2002, 19:47

thy yuuki,

guys, i tested all, the group-key, the hotkeys a mix of both...

the point is, i know where every unit is!!
i dont need the camera to look for my units, if i regroop or move them a bit ofcourse i need to use the camera http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

but as example, in my unitbaar (all 16) i have my 2 sams, the left on is on my left flank and the rigth on my right flank...

same like my cavarcher, left is left....

i have a left-cav-wing its my hotkey 1 and a right-cav-wing its hotkey 3, in my center i setup my shockunits (key 2)

i have some units in different hotkeys, so i can move my complet right army or the left...

my gen is in right or left cavwing (depends where i setup), but he get an single hotkey (0) as well, coz in a fast melee u cant always select him.

i stoped time, to test what is fastest and turned my whole army 180°

u can select all and group them, than u can use alt and mouse, BUT...the units move always in same formation...so if u turn more than 20 or 30° this is to slow, its good to move right or left....but still to slow

koc

zakusan

02-07-2002, 22:52

I am no master but this is a very interesting thread indeed and I think it is the place to get answers to a couple od questions I have.

1. Is there any way to rotate entire groups of units so that the constituent units keep their positions relative to one another? For example, if I have a formation consisting of a unit of archers, behind them, some YS, and behind them some ND, and I want to rotate the entire formation 90 degrees, how do I do it? Using alt+right click results in disaster, each individual unit rotates, which destroys the formation. This is a big issue for me, and is the #1 command and control issue that I would like fixed in Medieval Total War. Any tips? Some online players seem to be able to make their entire army turn at right angles to flank mine, so maybe there is a way.

2. Whenever I make a 'g' group and tell it to move somewhere, the units always run and I can't get them to walk. This seriously undermines the usefulness of 'g' groups, because the units tire too quickly.

Cheers all great thread

tootee

02-07-2002, 23:01

*Sigh*

I tried using hotkeys, but the effort to look down on my KB and hit ctrl+num took secs off my control and distract me.. it's no good for me. I'll stick to using [g]..

Anyway when I [g], I always group such that the position of the group banners at the screen bottom correlate to the actual units' position on the field. Easily done since any group formed always start on the rightside of banners and get pushed leftward by new groups.

But it definitely limit what I can achieve with such simple control...

Is there any brainwave controller around?

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tootee the goldfish
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tootee

02-07-2002, 23:09

Quote Originally posted by zakusan:

1. Is there any way to rotate entire groups of units so that the constituent units keep their positions relative to one another? For example, if I have a formation consisting of a unit of archers, behind them, some YS, and behind them some ND, and I want to rotate the entire formation 90 degrees, how do I do it? Using alt+right click results in disaster, each individual unit rotates, which destroys the formation. This is a big issue for me, and is the #1 command and control issue that I would like fixed in Medieval Total War. Any tips? Some online players seem to be able to make their entire army turn at right angles to flank mine, so maybe there is a way.

Cheers all great thread[/QUOTE]

When u use alt+right click to change facing, the units/groups will face towards the mouse tip. If all units are ungrouped, each will turn by itself as one. If you have groups, each will turn by itself as one. So to answer your answer, just select all (ctrl+a) and group [g] all into one group, it will turn as one, maintaining the army formation. Koc and others have mentioned it somewhere.

Your second question, Yuuki has the answer posted somewhere, either in this thread of others.

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tootee the goldfish
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