View Full Version : Creative Assembly LongJohn -- real affect of weap con\'t.
shingenmitch2
03-09-2002, 04:18
LongJohn ---
You said, "This is why each honour upgrade costs 40% more than the previous step, because that is roughly the increase in fighting power."
Is each Honor step really a 40% increase in power MORE THAN THE LAST STEP? If I got you correct about this ... then YIKES!
If combat power builds off the power of the previous step, then this does not simply add 40% more power to each unit for each honor upgrade. It EXPONENTIALLY adds 40%. THIS WILL THROW THINGS WAY OFF:
As I understand it STW does NOT work this way: A simple additive %, but it only builds off the H0 of 100% in even 40% steps:
H0 = 100%
H1 = 140% (40% increase over 100)
H2 = 180% (29% increase over 140)
H3 = 220% (22% increase over 180)
H4 = 260% (18% increase of 220)
.... on up to ...
H8 = 420%
H9 = 460% (10% increase over 420)
H9 is 4.6 times more powerful than H0. That would be a lot. I personally think no single unit's high-end should be more than about 3 x its low-end. Also in this situation, Low Honor units get more help from an Honor increase H0 to H1 gains 40%, H8 to H9 only 10% more power.
But the important thing here is that the top end is only 460% better than the low.
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What I think you were telling me is that STW calculates each step as 40% more than the previous step:
H0 = 100%
H1 = 140% (40% more than 100)
H2 = 196% (40% more than 140)
H3 = 270% (40% more than 196)
H4 = 380% (40% more than 270)
...on up to...
H8 = 1,475%
H9 = 2,066% (40% more than 1,475)
H9 is 20 times more powerful than H0! (not including Weap/Arm upgrades.) The only good thing about this is that Honor increase power evenly for each step. H1 is 40% more than H0, and H9 is 40% more than H8.
Am I correct in thinking this is how it works?
The price structure absolutely works this way. If the power structure reflects the price structure, this should seriously be rethought. In this scenario you've got honor making a unit 20 times better than the low end. Too much.
With an exponential system it seems problematic to have 9 steps at 40% each step.
If the game works this way, the only reason the game isn't totally out of whack is that everyone is able to upgrade units to about the same Honor level. And then some units are inherrently set up to beat other units. But this would explain why upgrading an Ashi to H8/9 is so powerful.
[This message has been edited by shingenmitch2 (edited 03-08-2002).]
longjohn2
03-09-2002, 06:39
That's exactly how it works.
A H9 units costs 20 times as much, so it doesn't matter that it is 20 times as good.
In fact you're much better taking 2 honour 7 units, instead of 1 honour nine, since they'll fatigue at a lower rate, and whike the h9 unit is killing one of yours, the other charges into its rear for a nice big bonus. Similarly 4 H5 units would be even better, and 8 h3 units better than those etc.
Also h9 units are vanishingly rare in the strategy game. You only really get them in high koku single battles.
thats true, the highest honour unit you can reliably get in the campaign game is hon6 with general and building upgrades...and who wants to play the games when you get hon9 units online...
Its really more of a theoretical maximum in my opinion, honour six being more the roof - with hon 7,8, and 9 being more options for people to play around with in tests...
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"Situation excellente. J'attaque!"
[This message has been edited by Whitey (edited 03-09-2002).]
shingenmitch2
03-09-2002, 10:03
Thanks for the reply. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
It does make a difference tho... I understand that cost is commensurate to power(but not always -- see how the Ashi incriment up their cost/fighting power and compare that to other units). But I guess I don't understand the rationale for having that much of increase in the first place.
From a reality perspective (since this game does its best to model reality in all other aspects), why would you ever be able to train any unit that much? Why have a unit get to 20x? Why not 5 honor steps, or half the upgrade increment? Isn't a triple fighting power enough for a great veteran unit? (I do, however, like the steps up for the Morale aspect -- how they stand and fight as Honor increases.)
In warfare, training and experience of troops is important (and double [200%] combat power is SIGNIFICANT), but equally important factors (perhaps more important)have always been mass (numbers--in STW double-teaming) and firepower (weapons/armor/and their use -- in STW this becomes Unit TYPE).
By having a unit swing that much in power based on a Training factor, you allow for situations in which firepower (unit type) becomes ancillary. H3 Nodachi vs. H7 Ashi (yes the Ashi cost more --not by a lot--, but the point is you've got peasants with pitchforks defeating supposed samurai trained in H2H -- and beating them soundly)
In terms of on-line balance -- you will almost always buy troops to fill all your slots, because 2 on 1 is so powerful (as it should be) but the way people upgrade, some units will be at H0 and others H8. That means you can really mess with the balance between unit types and what they are designed to be / do.
(I could be off, but my my calcs at 753 koku, I can buy an H7 Ashi which is significantly more powerful than a 823 koku Nodachi--not including its charge bonus, just straight fighting)
[This message has been edited by shingenmitch2 (edited 03-09-2002).]
Base on what longjohn has provided, YA at H8 has 10 pts (5 att + 5 def), while ND at H5 has 9 pts (8 att + 1 def), with charge bonus ND5 hs 17 pts (8 + 1 + 8).
If you can somehow nullify the ND charge bonus, e.g. attack 1st while ND still standing, then YA has a 1 pt edge relatively over the ND. But if the ND succeeds at charging at the YA, the 1st two second killing (kills about 8-10 YA) is enof to tilt the advangtage to ND.
For cost-on-cost comparsion, at 823 koku, the best YA fighting unit is H8W1 at 793 koku giving it 11 pts, 2 pt advantage over the ND.
Yes the YA definitely is stronger at equal koku value. The only justification for paying extra for the ND is for his charge bonus and higher morale, which overall still balances the game.
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tootee the goldfish
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Does the troopstats file show unit values for H2 or for H0 units?
Konnichiwa,
H7 YA aren't rare in 5,000 koku online battles. While the weapon and armor upgrade system makes things a bit worse, superYA were and are a problem in the original STW.
A H2 YA costs 100 koku, a H9 1054. A H4 no-dachi costs 823 Koku (a H6 Nod is more expensive than a H9 YA). The H9 YA beats the H5 Nod easily. The H9 YA also beats the H6 1152 koku Nod. Only a H7 1613 koku Nod can beat the YA. But only by losing 50% of his own. (No weapon or armor upgrades are used).
When I started playing STW over 2 years ago, I thought Honorupgrades only effected the morale, the willingness to fight. Armorupgrades added armor which protects a unit more against arrows and add a bit defense. Weapons made HTH units fight better.
I was shocked to see H8 YA beating my H3 Nods in online fights. Only some 6 months ago, I readed about the true nature of the upgradesystem. It adds 1 combat for every unit. The YA pays about 40 koku for H2->H3 (1 point). A wm pays >200 koku for the same 1 point. Now I see that's even worse than that: 2 points.
This seems not a big issue in campaigngames, it is in online games.
Thank you very much for discussing this with us Longjohn sama.
Cheetah san, the stats show them for H0. Fighting with H0 units is the only way to fully use the Rock Paper Scissor. Too bad you start buying units at H2 (which causes honorsellbackproblems).
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
Konnichiwa Tosa san,
The troopstat.txt values are for honour0 unit? gee I have always thought they're for honour2.
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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shingenmitch2
03-10-2002, 00:11
Tosa --
don't forget, each 1 increase is an exponetial increase (the relative increase is the same, but the ACTUAL combat power can be a huge jump.)
ex.:
H0 = 1.0
H1 = 1.4 (1 step adds 0.4 of H0)
H2 = 2.0 (1 step adds 0.6 of H0)
H3 = 2.7 (1 step adds 0.7 of H0)
H4 = 3.8 (1 step adds 1.1 of H0 -- the jumps are starting to get bigger, already at H4 we have a unit almost 4 times more powerful than H0)
So the low end isn't too bad, but remember this is an exponentially increaseing curve.
It gets worse at the top end:
H7 = 10.6 (BTW this is 11 times more powerful than H0)
H8 = 14.8 (in 1 step adds 4.0 x H0)
H9 = 20.7 (in 1 step adds 7.0 x H0)
If we added only 2 more Honor Steps, at H11 it would be 40 TIMES more powerful than H0.
fatigue, flanking, charge, slope only mitigate this problem. It helps to mask what is essentially too steep a curve at the top end. It doesn't cure the problem.
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The MORALE system works great, it should increase as "skill/honor" increases. It should go from "flees easy" to "everyman fights to the death." This I REALLY LIKE about the Honor system H0 - H9.
Morale, should be separate from SKILL/EXPERIENCE which affects COMBAT POWER.
Skill should not be able to increase a unit's CP by more than 3 or 4 times AT MOST.
This will prevent the breaking of Paper/Scissors effect and keep units in more appropriate roles. They become more effective with experience, but not stupidly so.
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******************
Here's an easy fix for MEDIEVAL TW.
Have honor only upgrade to H4 or H5. Then just re-calibrate the MORALE bonus so that H5 "stands tough" maybe 90% death of unit and H0 is "flees easy."
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or Decrease the Combat Power incriment to
10 or 20% instead of 40% and keep the 9 incriments (with Morale acting the same way)
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Or separate out the morale, have that scale in 9 steps as it does now (which is nice) and then have Skill (combat Power scale differently - 4 or 5 small steps)
[This message has been edited by shingenmitch2 (edited 03-09-2002).]
I completely agree with Mitch. (too bad that my agreement counts very, very little http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Just one more idea. It would be nice to be able to upgrade the stamina of the units(i.e. the rate with which they gettting tired). After all, traninig is not just about improving your skills.
Konnichiwa,
It takes hours and hours of training to improve your fighting skills, anyone who practices martial arts can confirm that. Yet killing a couple of enemies on the field increases the fighting skill of a unit. I agree that it should boost its morale/fightingspirit, I disagree that that would increase the skills.
While the example from http://www.totalwar.org/Stats.html uses combatskills in the Honorupgrade, it would be much better to make it morale only. And yes, the tiring rate/stamina is something that should be in the stats too. And any stat should be definable for upgrade. What could limit this is hardwarelimitations (game can't be executed or runs slow). In that case things MUST be simplified. First things first. The yari vs cav bonus upgrade is a must. Decision can be to deny combatupgrade for archers/guns and give them only morale. Morale of a missileunit could determine its accuracy, something that's supposed to be the case now, but which is hardly measurable.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
Sword_Monkey
03-10-2002, 04:06
I think you are all off your rocker with this complaining at how honour works in the game.
It's a Japanese flavoured label for unit experience, end of story. Almost every RTS, TBS, Wargame, etc. that's come out in the past four years implements some form of individual unit experience which grows with combat. That said, this is the first game that I've ever seen anyone care enough to puzzle out exactly what each point of experience yielded and, worse, then to complain about it.
I agree that the 9 point scale is problematic for unit type balancing in multiplayer but, in spite of this forum's bias, the focus for the game design should be the campaign and how it plays. In the campaign, no unit starts at higher than level three experience, and no unit ever gets beyond six or seven with leader bonuses, and you sure as heck never see H9 YA in campaign play... It's an artifact of a system designed for a campaign that was adapted to skirmish rules, it is definitey not grounds for changing the way experience (oops, "honour") works.
It's a game, units should become better at fighting through combat, how else do the detractors propose they get better? What you guys seem to think honour should be about is what morale already covers. Honour is just a catchall for unit experience which covers morale, attack, and defense and that is exactly what unit experience should involve. I don't care about the real-life facts of training in martial arts, I care about a fun game.
The problem is that you can purchase H4+ units in mp, not how the combat system itself works. Eliminate the ability to purchase units that would almost never be available in campaign play and your arguments go out the window. Rip the guts out of honour like you propose and the fun of watching units get more and more effective in single player goes bye-bye. You all want to change something that has no negative effect in single player to something that would have a most negative effect in single player all so that the 15 people who show up on any given night don't have to wonder why the 7000K YA can beat an 8000K ND, something which no one among the vast majority of Shogun players even knows about or cares.
Quote Originally posted by Sword_Monkey:
That said, this is the first game that I've ever seen anyone care enough to puzzle out exactly what each point of experience yielded and, worse, then to complain about it.[/QUOTE]
That only goes to show how fun STW is! As long as our moan and groan don't piss DT till they drop MTW and beyond! LOL http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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Konnichiwa,
I wouldn't care about how it works if it worked properly. I discovered that it didn't work by playing online, not by juggling with numbers.
We are not COMPLAINING we try to prove (each in his own way) that the game we love to play has flaws in the upgradesystem.
I like it very much that each man in a unit has it's own stat, and I like that killing on the field upgrades that 1 man. I don't agree that it increases his skills right there. Killing should increase the morale right there, and more morale should motivate the unit to train more and improve his skills once it returns home(note that each turn is 3 months in the campaign, more than enough to train skills).
The combatsystem is great, the upgradesystem is not.
SP campaigns won't suffer from a better one.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
tootee,
The troopstats.txt shows the parameters for H0 units. An H0 YA is -1/-1, att/def. Now we know that each honor upgrade adds +1 to attack and +1 to defend which means they are each improved by 20%. That's why longjohn made the cost of an honor upgrade 40%. An H8 YA adds +8 to att AND +8 to defend. That would make it a 7/7, att/def. However, the cost calculation starts at H2. The H8 YA is six 40% cost steps above H2, and that is 753 koku. The H5 ND is +5 added to 5/-2 which gives 10/3, and the cost is three 40% steps above H2 which gives 823 koku.
Now, if you neglect charge, when these two units fight you would have 7 - 3 = 4 when a YA man strikes at an ND man. That's 1.2**4 = 2.07 times the base probability to kill. When the ND strikes at the YA you have 10 - 7 = 3. That's 1.2**3 = 1.73 times the base probability. The YA has a 20% advantage, and it didn't cost as much as the ND. In addition, the YA has it's yari bonus against cav, and nice foot speed. The only aspects it's inferior to the ND is in charge and morale. The morale problem is largely overcome at the higher honor levels. It all adds up to the high honor YA being a very effective unit that basically replaces the ND and WM units, and it starts coming into play at around 10k koku games.
longjohn,
The saga of the weapon and armor upgrade is a case of not understanding the system. The community here the org asked for these upgrades to be added. They were added, and the original prices of 20% for a weapon and, I believe, 30% for armor should have been correct, except they were not tied into your purchase system correctly. The three upgrades are figured separately with the cost of the H2 unit being the base price. Thus, if I added a weapon to an H8 YA, it only cost an additional 20 koku instead of 0.2 * 753 = 150 koku as it should. The players complained that these additional upgrades were too cheap, and they were right, except we didn't know why. The fix which CA provided in the v1.01 patch was to increase the cost to 40% for a weapon and 60% for armor. This helps, but it is not the correct fix.
MizuYuuki ~~~
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 03-09-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 03-10-2002).]
Konnichiwa,
I was one of those who asked for this. That was long before I played online and wasn't aware of the nature of the upgradesystem. I saw Morale, armor and weaponupgrades. It seems logical to think that Morale affects willingness to fight, weapon adds attack, and armor defense and missileprotection.
Much later my Nods were killed by H8 YA in online battles. At first I thought I missed something, but soon I discovered that high honor YA were the most nasty unit of all.
The weapon and armor upgrade adds to this, but it's not the only responsible. This simplified system of adding 1 attack to any unit could have been acceptable if Honor would be morale only, the 3 weapons melee and the 3 armor defense and missileprotection.
Thus a H7W2A2 unit would only be 1 melee 1 defense 10 honor. A H2 Nod would 5 -2 would have some change to kill it.
I would vote for a safer system though.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
[This message has been edited by TosaInu (edited 03-09-2002).]
Sword_Monkey
03-10-2002, 06:40
Quote Originally posted by TosaInu:
The weapon and armor upgrade adds to this, but it's not the only responsible. This simplified system of adding 1 attack to any unit could have been acceptable if Honor would be morale only, the 3 weapons melee and the 3 armor defense and missileprotection.
[/QUOTE]
I really think you are missing the point that "Honour" is nothing more than a Japanese flavoured word for "Experience". Experience improves all aspects of a unit's fighting and skill, not just morale.
Morale from Palace's in the game is the equivalent of program to increase one's self-confidence which makes you believe in your skills that much more.
The weapon upgrades are just that, one fighter with a master crafted katana versus one with a crude sword will usually win all other things being equal.
Armour is similarly self explanatory.
But experience covers all things. When I learn new skills in battle, I am better able to spot your weak spot and strike with my sword, I am better able to block your sword blow, and I am more confident. Honour as what it is: experience, has nothing to do with real life Honour which would be nigh impossible to implement in the game except as they already have.
I don't have a problem with an improved system but what you are arguing against isn't flawed in my mind. Units should have some sort of catchall experience system, not only is it more realistic as you don't learn to attack or just defend better, defense and attack go hand in hand and the subsequent confidence boost follows right along. The problem was they called it "honour" versus "experience" and somewhere this lead to misperceptions in how it should function in your mind.
So fine, let's not have units get their honour/experience boost in the field, make these additions only occur after a battle similar to how a general's rank functions. Let's make honour upgrades more expensive if that's what you want. Let's prevent people from buying units with 20X the skills of the base unit. But, I still fail to see the issue with experience doing what it does even if the game designers call it "honour".
What really escaped me is how the honour/experience works on ranged units.
A seasoned archer should have better skill in using ranged weapon instead of H2H combat.
Given all these, well I still think the online play is still very fun. Yes I met more players using strong YA (I started using them since 1.02 was released but dropped them after getting bored with them), but it seems the game play is still pretty balanced (not like the old musk problem).
With the WM and ND charge bonus, they can still defeat the YA no problemo, just that I gotta use them right.
In fact it make the games more challenging.
The problem is not serious, but still its a problem, and we have identified the 'flaw' and suggested various improvement. just hope that longjohn or someone from DT/CA pick it up for MTW.
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
PS: again.. I volunter for beta testing MTW if there is one to be http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif I wanna take apart the whole engine http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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Papewaio
03-10-2002, 15:56
Quote Originally posted by TosaInu:
Konnichiwa,
I wouldn't care about how it works if it worked properly. I discovered that it didn't work by playing online, not by juggling with numbers.
We are not COMPLAINING we try to prove (each in his own way) that the game we love to play has flaws in the upgradesystem.
I like it very much that each man in a unit has it's own stat, and I like that killing on the field upgrades that 1 man. I don't agree that it increases his skills right there. Killing should increase the morale right there, and more morale should motivate the unit to train more and improve his skills once it returns home(note that each turn is 3 months in the campaign, more than enough to train skills).
The combatsystem is great, the upgradesystem is not.
SP campaigns won't suffer from a better one.
[/QUOTE]
The other way to think of it is just a matter of applying the training and the confidence gained from winning the combats follows through there and then.
Morale does make a huge difference in competitive sport. And I'm sure it is the same with elite units.
The honour 8 YA would surely have impressed enough lords to be made samurai... it would take a while to get there in the campaign... so online there should be a max of 6 honour for YA anything higher is a samurai by default.
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Victory First, Battle Last
Quote Orininally posted by Sword_Monkey:
The problem is that you can purchase H4+ units in mp, not how the combat system itself works. Eliminate the ability to purchase units that would almost never be available in campaign play and your arguments go out the window. [/QUOTE]
I don't think so. You can easily have H5 or H6 YA units in the campaign. It is true that the AI is less likely to have high honour units (for various reasons). So, you are less likely to notice the way these units unbalance the game (i.e. if you can beat the AI nodachi with your ashi, so what? Who cares? It just shows that you are a great general, aren't you?)
Quote Orininally posted by Sword_Monkey:
I really think you are missing the point that "Honour" is nothing more than a Japanese flavoured word for "Experience". Experience improves all aspects of a unit's fighting and skill, not just morale. [/QUOTE]
This can be indeed confusing, but this is not the main problem. The problem is that the current upgrade system ruins the rock-paper-scissor relation between unit types. YA, which is supposed to be an auxiliary unit, is now an all-round fighter, it is a better shock-troop than monks or nodachi, faster than any of these units, and as a bonus can defeat any cavalry on the field.
Quote Orininally posted by Sword_Monkey:
So fine, let's not have units get their honour/experience boost in the field, make these additions only occur after a battle similar to how a general's rank functions. Let's make honour upgrades more expensive if that's what you want. Let's prevent people from buying units with 20X the skills of the base unit. But, I still fail to see the issue with experience doing what it does even if the game designers call it "honour".[/QUOTE]
Well, if this all were done (properly) then no one would complain any longer. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Mitch,
Longjohn gave the formula probability to kill, p = 0.19 * 1.2 ** df where df = attack - defend + bonus. Assuming no bonus, if your H9 YA man [8/8]strikes my H0 YA man [-1/-1] you get df = 8 - [-1] = 9, and thus p = 0.19 * 1.2 ** 9 = 98%. That's just about a sure kill. If my guys get to strike yours, df = -1 - 8 = -9, and p = 0.19 * 1.2 ** [-9] = 3.7%. So, you have the probability range of 3.7% to 98% mapped onto -9 < df > +9 with the base that df = 0 represents at 19%. That is a difference of about 25x between the two units.
MizuYuuki ~~~
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 03-11-2002).]
Sword_Monkey
03-10-2002, 23:41
Quote Originally posted by Cheetah:
I don't think so. You can easily have H5 or H6 YA units in the campaign. It is true that the AI is less likely to have high honour units (for various reasons). So, you are less likely to notice the way these units unbalance the game (i.e. if you can beat the AI nodachi with your ashi, so what? Who cares? It just shows that you are a great general, aren't you?)
[/QUOTE]
I'll take issue with this: if you can get an actual H5/6 YA unit in the campaign and not just an H3 + general bonus then you're spending too much time in the "game masturbation" department. It's doable in the same way that it's doable to make Biff and Flo in JA2 into crack killers,but it's an exercise in "let's see if I can do this", not a genuine strategy. For the amount of effort to babysit YA in the game such that they gain that sort of honour and not lose 80% of their men you could have been making H3 ND with legendary everything and kicking everyone's asses a while ago. So, if someone wants to go to that much effort in the campaign, more power to them, it doesn't show the system is broken, only that someone has grown bored of the "right" way to do things and is pushing the engine as far as it will go. Me, if I build YA at all, they're for pin cushions in my front line and mop up skirmishers, which is what they're supposed to be used for.
There is a danger in altering game mechanics around what a handful of your total players do. You wind up making changes because of what a few exploiters do online and then everyone has to deal with the fallout. Blizzard, as an example, ruined the fun of Diablo 2 by patching one too many classes into mediocrity and took away perfectly valid skills for other classes in the name of "balance" based on what online players did. In the process, they damaged the sp game and took options away from friendly LAN/private mp games.
I'm not against a solid combat system and a good multiplayer game is important for a subset of your audience. I'll give CA further kudos in that later patches have shown they recognise the difference between sp and mp and are willing to go the extra mile to see that one set of changes doesn't hose the other one. OTOH, I don't believe the problem is the base mechanic of Honour/Weap/Armour/Morale upgrading but rather the caps on it within the game. A better point system is needed both in SP and MP if you want to get away from the super army syndrome. But, even as implemented, it really doesn't matter except for the truly hard core who just care about winning. The cost differential between the super YA and the pumped up ND isn't that much, realistic or not, they have designed an elegant system which does have a pretty good economy for cost versus combat potential which is a lot more than the majority of games can claim. When I play mp, it's on a LAN with a friend, and the only thing that matters is screwing around for fun. The idea that one of us would just make an army of 8 muskets, 2 WM, and 6 super YA because it's strategically better is inconceivable. We're going to slap armies together that "cool" and "fun" and that's what most players are going to...
...that is until they get their ass handed to them by grizzled vets who have picked this game apart so much that they know they'll have 4.17% better chance with unit than unit so they choose versus every time. Then the newbie adopts the mathematically superior unit and the syndrome is propogated further and people cry for a better system. The problem isn't the system, it's people who are so competitive they find the ways to break the game. It happens with every game that has competitive multiplayer after a while, and even single player games with exploits can find themselves hurt by the widespread information of the internet. It's human nature and I doubt there is any game designer out there who can get away from it unless people just want to play multiplayer games where there's only one unit and results are decided by a purely random formula. It's why even a game like chess has become utterly formulaic and is so inaccessible for the average player - it's been analysed to death and only by memorising the mathematically proven strats can you hope to win.
Konnichiwa,
Making upgrades more expensive doesn't solve the underlying problem: every unit gets the same upgrade and cheap units pay less for that same 1 point.
This looks like a stat from a RPG:
Con: 18
Dex: 12
Str: 10
Wis: 15
Int: 17
Chr: 15
I don't like those games, and different names might be used, but these fantasy games use more upgradable stats than the warsim STW? It's fine with me if players want the simplified mode for campaigns, I want advanced stats.
What I tried to say in http://www.totalwar.org/Stats.html was that by putting every stat inside external text files and allow to define things like unitcost, upgradecosts and how upgrades should be, combined with a system where the host could choose stats (the host is also the offline player) anyone can play the games he wants.
Talking about offline gameplay, I've made a scenario for STW WE/MI. It's called Ikki (revolt), in some battles I wanted simple farmers to attack a castle garnisoned by samurais. The idea was to slaughter these farmers. That's nearly impossible to do. Weak YA simply rout off the field, high honor YA are also strong fighters (because
of the +2 combat for every honor) making it much harder to win. After many attempts to bypass this, I just changed the story.
Just high morale YA could be weak, but very determined to attack (an outraged crowd). Revolts are part of the campaign game, right now you'ld have either a revolt that decides it can't win the battle and retreats or you have a very strong one. A 'catchall experience system' isn't flexible.
Like Cheetah san says: 'YA, which is supposed to be an auxiliary unit, is now an all-round fighter, it is a better shock-troop than monks or nodachi, faster than any of these units, and as a bonus can defeat any cavalry on the field.' STW WE has only 21 units (STW only 11) the problems were appearant to some players. MTW will have 100.
------------------
Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
Konnichiwa,
'There is a danger in altering game mechanics around what a handful of your total players do. You wind up making changes because of what a few exploiters do online and then everyone has to deal with the fallout. '
This is simply not true. Even if MTW will only have one build in stat, the new upgrade system implies that any unit will stay inside the role it has. Example, the H0 YA has -2 normal combat and 8 points vs cav, a H4 YA has 6 combatpoints and still only 8 points vs cav (total vs cav 8 + 6, but the bonus is a fixed thing). Better would be to upgrade the vs cav bonus (be it 100% or 75%) so you get 0 combatpoints and 14 vs cav bonus. This way the YA is slightly better vs Nods and equal good vs cav as is the case now. The YA will get better in where it's made for not a kill all unit (which you wouldn't bother to make in the campaign anyway). This game has a great RPS system: spears beat cav, shock beats spears, missiles beat shocks, cav beats missiles. The simplified upgrade system swamps this.
'...that is until they get their ass handed to them by grizzled vets who have picked this game apart so much that they know they'll have 4.17% better chance with unit than unit so they choose versus every time. '
At this moment it's much worse than that. I don't say that the VETS don't have tactical skills, but players who spend >20 hours online weekly discover every pitfall in the system, 'newbies' with sound knowledge about how real life units interact get blasted away on the battlefield only because they don't know about SUPER YA killing anything.
------------------
Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
Quote Originally posted by Sword_Monkey
I'll take issue with this: if you can get an actual H5/6 YA unit in the campaign and not just an H3 + general bonus then you're spending too much time in the "game masturbation" department. It's doable in the same way that it's doable to make Biff and Flo in JA2 into crack killers,but it's an exercise in "let's see if I can do this", not a genuine strategy. [/QUOTE]
Well, here I agree with you. It is certainly not a genuine strategy with which you can win a campaign. However, my point was that it can be done, i.e. it is not a problem limited to mp.
Quote Originally posted by Sword_Monkey
The idea that one of us would just make an army of 8 muskets, 2 WM, and 6 super YA because it's strategically better is inconceivable. We're going to slap armies together that "cool" and "fun" and that's what most players are going to...[/QUOTE]
An other good point. This shows that one of the reasons why the super ashi army does not dominate the battle field is actually social pressure from peers, i.e. it is regarded as a dishonourable tactic (much like the monk rush). This is good, but it would be even better if the super ashi army won't exist at all. And this brings us to my last point. The solution to this problem, as proposed by you, Mitch or Magy, is so simple that there is no need to worry about it. Just limit the available honour upgrades for ashis in mp battles. This won't change the combat system, won't take away skills for other units, won't simplify the game in any respect. And yes, there are competitive players who try to exploit the system (and we should give some credit to them, since this improves our understanding of the system), and yes no game can be safe from these exploitations, but when an exploit became apperent I think it is a sensible thing to ask the elimination of it, even more, if it can be done so easily.
I need to give experiment with these points. You guys always come up with interesting points.
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Everyman dies, but not everyman truly lives.
Quote Originally posted by Puzz3D:
Mitch,
Longjohn gave the formula probability to kill, p = 0.19 * 1.2 ** df where df = attack - defend + bonus. Assuming no bonus, if your H9 YA man [8/8]strikes my H0 YA man [-1/-1] you get df = 8 - [-1] = 9, and thus p = 0.19 * 1.2 ** 9 = 98%. That's just about a sure kill. If my guys get to strike yours, df = -1 - 8 = -9, and p = 0.19 * 1.2 ** -9 = 19%. That clearly can't be right for negative df. There must be a different function used that makes the 19% to 0% probability range available, and I would guess that -9 df would give you something close to 0% probability. So, if I'm right, you have the full probability range of 0% to 100% available and mapped onto -9 < df > +9 with the base that df = 0 represents at 19%. That would allow about 5x change in probability in either direction.
MizuYuuki ~~~[/QUOTE]
p = 0.19 * 1.2 ** -9 = 0.037 actually, so it's pretty realistic.
Actually, what make the game fun is variety. I don't mind a H8 YA beating a H5 ND in a straight H2H, but if the ND has other bonus like +12 charge bonus, twice better morale, etc it even things out. It only means you gotta use the unit the right way. For simple SuperYA, it can be good or even deadly in frontal H2H, but if it does not have charge bonus, maybe walk slower, poorer morale (i.e. rout when unit is half size), it balances things out.
Not pertaining to just MI (and more of gameplay over realism), if a unit is meant as a cav stopper, give it lots of bonus vs cav but lousy otherwise. If a unit is meant to be a flanker, give it lots of related bonus but make it mediocre in frontal h2h, etc..
Then you have a nice scissor-paper-stone system. glory then to the best tactician on the battle ground.
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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[This message has been edited by tootee (edited 03-11-2002).]
tootee,
Your right. 1.2**[-9] is 0.19. Thanks for catching that. I edited my post above so it is correct.
MixuYuuki ~~~
Sword Monkey,
The problem is the system. It's not a mere 4.17% difference. And, the players didn't break the game. The cost of the units in the multiplayer game is independent of their cost in the single player campaign. If the cost of the unit was proportional to its power, there would be no exploit, and players wouldn't be wondering why they lost even though they used superior tactics.
If you look at the basic h2h unit types: YA, YS, NI, ND and WM, you can see the imbalance:
H9 YA cost = 1054 koku has 16 att+def points
H7 YS cost = 1076 koku has 16 att+def points
H5 NI cost = 1166 koku has 17 att+def points
H6 ND cost = 1152 koku has 15 att+def points
H4 WM cost = 1078 koku has 15 att+def points
The YA is already superior to the ND and WM by 20%. When the weapon and armor upgrades are considered, the YA cost advantage further increases because those upgrades are cheaper for the YA than the other units.
I don't think analyzing a game's mechanics, and pointing out how it could be improved is a bad thing. If the improvement is not properly implemented, then that's bad. Clearly, the weapon and armor upgrades are an example of what you are saying. They are not properly integrated into longjohn's system, and thus the multiplayer unit balance is worse with those upgrades.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Super YA also has the following advantages:
1)Its speed is the same as WM and ND, making YA one of the fastest ground infantry (only slower than BN and Kensai)
2)Yari bonus. Making YA better cavalry stopper than WM/ND/NI with the same attack+defend point.
3)Ashigaru status. This is both a bless and a curse. YA do break easily, but since with the same koku, you can raise YA's honor significantly, the difference is somewhat reduced. At honor 9, YA's final moral will be 14, that's what I call brave enough.
On the other hand, when YA rout, the other samurai are not seriously affected. This can also be exploited, making YA more favorable.
***************************************
Overall, I don't really see the problem of making YA a super unit. This is certainly against everyone's intuition. But no need for being dignified.
I mean, if someone is so disturbed by the fact that a "noble" samurai can be defeated by mere peasants, consider the case of Warrior Monk.
It's just equally outrageous that those MONKS can turn out to be better than samurai, yet and nobody seems to have problem with that.
And super YA does have weakness. Not having any charge bonus being the most obvious one.
[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 03-11-2002).]
longjohn2
03-12-2002, 04:25
I think Sword Monkey is making the most sense here, and I'd like to thank him for saving me typing all that in.
For all those people who think there's a problem with the system, I'd suggest the real problem is the koku levels you're playing at. By playing with such high honour units you're effectively turning the morale system off, so the component of cost that relates to morale is wasted.
Suppose, that I have an umbrella, suppose further that there is hole on it. What shall I do? (a) Point out that there is a hole on it and that it needs repair. (b) Blame the ugly guy who puntched the hole on it? (c) Blame those who point out the fact that there is a hole on it? (d) Explain away the hole, saying that it is not really a hole, it is just an illusion, anyway the rain should not fall on that side of the umbrella, etc.?
If we have good game we want a better one, if we have a very good game we want an even better one. Indeed, this is human nature. But wait, what is wrong this?
BTW, chess is a good example for a complex strategy game that cannot be exploited! longjohn2 please don't give up!
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif giving encouragement to all http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
as I've said, I'm still enjoying the MP, and since I only play big games (3v3 4v4), the superYA effect is somewhat masked because it's team tactic that win the day.
Cheers all!
Maybe we can come out with a simple yet somewhat fool-proof system for MTW.. just a thought.
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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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longjohn,
Then you agree that the system breaks down at high koku. That's all we are saying. We balanced all units at H2 in the v1.02 beta. Except for the musk which is overpowered, it plays great if all units are H2. When the v1.02 was released, we stated that 7000 koku was the upper limit for retaining balance. That was probably too optimistic. Now I would say 6000 is the upper limit.
I would suggest to the vets that you stop playing 10,000 koku games. I don't know how this became the defacto standard for online play. It's too high. The default 5000 koku is just a bit low with the new units all more expensive than the average of 312 koku per unit that the default provides.
Oops! I can still buy my standard 10k army at 6k, and boost my two YA to H8, but I can't afford armor upgrades for them. So, it's probably ok.
MizuYuuki ~~~
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 03-12-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 03-12-2002).]
Konnichiwa LongJohn sama,
Yuuki is correct, the system breaks down at high koku. You mention that the morale is essentialy turned off, that is correct. But the nature of the upgradesystem breaks it down too. While Lowhonor YA rely on their yari vs cav bonus (the RPS you've painstakenly made and very well), high honor ones would almost kill cav using their normal combatpoints. Spears beating cav, shocks beating spears is gone.
While this will more likely happen in high koku battles, H5 YA do the same in the low koku ones.
H5 YA 4 melee 4 def 6 morale 274 koku AND yari vs cav bonus.
H0 WM 5 melee 2 def 8 morale 281 koku
We've run some tests with muskets. We tried H0, H3, H6 and H9. 300 bullets were fired from max range on Nodachis. (5 series for every honor). The average kills for the h0 was 34, the h3 39 h6 39.4 h9 48. Some 40% shootingimprovement from h0 to h9.
We also tested the hth skills vs H2 nods.
The muskets refused to charge the nods in all cases (despite engage at will and melee attack). 5 series of h0 muskets only killed 1 nod. The H9 muskets have 9 combatpoints (h2 nods only 7). 1 H9 musketunit attacked 1 h2 nodunit, this was repeated 5 times. The muskets won the melee 1 time. The average kills were 43.6.
Conclusion: honorupgrades affect accuracy (and or power) but only very little for h0->h6. I'm very happy to see that there is an effect, but a more lineair (and thus gradual increase) in ranged killing rate would make more sense for a gununit.
The problem with giving guns meleepower is that they resist cavcharges (their RPS, and also authentic enemy) too long. When a cavunit charges guns, many cavs will die by bullets, once they are in HTH distance, the guns would be overrun.
Now, the cav has lost quite a few by gunfire and now they can't beat them fast enough in melee because the musket gained defense and the cav will rout AFTER the HTH started.
Gunners should NOT get +1 melee +1 defense, while the rangedkillrate should differ more between a H0 and a H3 unit.
The upgrade should be unitspecific to ensure that the RPS system(which you recognised to be a very important aspect of warfare) is persevered.
It's not only the kokulevel, not only the weapon- and armorupgradesystem. Please discuss solutions for this problem that will ensure good gameplay in single offline and multi online play.
------------------
Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
MagyarKhans Cham
03-18-2002, 07:38
without reading all this, u all are probably right i can remember my khan once said that teh uprising of the farmers will happen around 10k
so a game with 6-8k is most nice and balanced...
sadly 10k is the hype just now
Konnichiwa,
Yes, I remember that. The Khan has said this a long while ago, as I hadn't played online back then, I didn't understood what he was talking about.
Right now, we have the feeling it's wrong and we also know why. Let's hope MTW will (offer tools to) fix this. The yari vs cav bonus shouldn't be a constant, but a function of honor. Something like: yarivscav:= (x**Honor + y*Honor + 1)*bonus
x, y and bonus are values stored in external textfiles.
By choosing x=0 you'll get linear behavior. Every yaritrooper can have his own values for this general equation (thus you can distinct between long and short pikes and halberds, peasants and 'knights').
Pikes grow strong vs cav, but hardly vs shockinf (unless players want this otherwise).
The melee and defense values can be calculated in the same way:
melee:= (x**Honor + y*Honor + 1)*basemelee
x, y and basemelee are values stored in an external textfile. Basemelee is already stored there, x and y have to be added.
Even skipping the exponential term would provide an excellent mean to craft units:
melee:= (y*Honor + 1)*basemelee
accuracy:=(y*Honor + 1)*baseaccuracy
defense:= (y*Honor + 1)*basedefense
manoeuvrability:=(y*Honor + 1)*baseman
The troopstat will have 3 numbers per parameter instead of the current 1.
I don't know how it's done right now, but I guess each unit has his own class, and calculation of the current combatvalue is done inside that class. Changing memberfunctions in that class (replace constants by functions) will likely do the trick.
More calculations might hurt performence on slow computers, a toggle in performce could switch between abstract combat and realistic combat.
------------------
Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
Kraellin
03-18-2002, 22:11
i dont quite follow all this. if the game plays balanced at around 4-8k koku and folks are playing a lot at 10k, then it strikes me that folks want a little more morale for their troops to keep them from running away so quickly. this is somewhat like what we/mi was in its released version, higher morale, less routing. given this, i then also dont understand longjohn's seeming reluctance to fix the broken ratios that occur with higher or lower koku values. i mean, why even allow a koku amount of 99k then. just set the limit at 8k or something. of course, then, folks cant play with better morale, but if you play with better morale you upset the ratios with added weapons and armor bonues and superunits and so on and therein lies the problem.
i remember playing a couple of those REALLY high koku games. it's interesting to exaggerate things once in a while to see how stuff stacks up. what happens in high koku games is that you end up taking completely different units than what you would at lower koku values. it points up the flaws in the scales and ratios and so on. and it points up the flaws in the weapons and armor bonuses. try it. you'll find yourself taking a much different army selection at higher koku.
K.
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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.
Hi folks, Yuuki, Krae, Tosa and co.
Just one point i thought i'd point out whilst i'm browsing these forums (ain't been here for ages http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif)
If i remember correctly, each honour upgrade doesn't add +1 def and +1 att!! Instead it it adds +1 to att and def alternatively...
i.e.
h0 YS 0/2 (att/def)
h1 YS 1/2
h2 YS 1/3
h3 YS 2/3
h4 YS 2/4
and so on...
Correct me if i'm wrong lol http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
CHeerio
P.S. how's online STW these days? Worth popping back for a battle or two?
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=MizuDoc Otomo=
=Clan Takiyama=
[This message has been edited by DoCToR (edited 03-18-2002).]
That's what you get if you don't follow posts 25 hours a day.
Longjohn has pointed out that one point of honor increase raises both attack and defense value by one.
The F1 screen is totaly screwed (yeah, like we don't know that already).
DoCToR,
A friendly face arrives. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Well, we were all wrong about the honor upgrades. Longjohn set us straight in the "morale penalty" thread on the first page of General Discussion. The link to it I posted won't work.
Read it quickly before it falls off the 60 day edge. I don't think I saved that stuff Target posted about the meaning of the parameters in the various stat files. Damn.
MizuYuuki ~~~
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 03-18-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 03-18-2002).]
Konnichiwa Doc san,
Good to see you back. Longjohn posted that it's +1 att AND +1 def AND +2 morale for every +1 honorupgrade, so things are a bit worse than we thought.
Edit:
Yes Doc, it would be great to play some again.
------------------
Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
[This message has been edited by TosaInu (edited 03-18-2002).]
Hi lads,
The +1 att and def from 1 hon upgrade would have been handy to know before we did our beta testing.. lol
I guess we'll just have to accept that F1 screen will never work properly http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
You mentioned Target and parameters Yuuki... can you elaborate a little, if you can remember? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Cheers all
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=MizuDoc Otomo=
=Clan Takiyama=
DoCToR,
I think you saw Target's post about the building choices and daimyo personalities in the Editing and Mods forum. That's what I'm refering to. Despite the fact that there were relatively few posts in that forum, they were also chopped to 60 days.
TosaInu,
A minor point: Longjohn pointed out the +1 attack and + 1 defense added by +1 honor. He has never to my knowledge commented on the +2 morale. That's something I determined by my own testing. Other people may also have figured this out.
Kraellin,
You'll recall our online battle tests with WE/MI v1.0 at various morale settings. Subtracting -12 for all units got the game back to STW levels. The gameplay was also good at +4 morale above STW levels. I actually preferred that. It's interesting that 10K koku allows, on average, a doubling of unit honor from H2 to H4. That gives a +4 to morale. Coincidence?
I've suggested to people online to play at 6K koku instead of 10k, but some feel the units run away too easily at 6K. I believe that the strong guns are behind the move to higher koku. You have a better chance to rush guns when your h2h units have higher morale. Although I think the guns are a little too strong, the real culprit here is that they are still too cheap even after the increase from 175 to 250 koku. I also don't fully understand the opposition to reducing gun ammo to the point where it makes a difference. The reduction from 40 ammo to 20 ammo effectively did nothing in terms of gameplay. When you look at the two numbers it appears to be a huge reduction, but the guns still don't run out of ammo.
The bottom line is that there was not enough time to fully playtest the v1.02. The WE/MI v1.02 did stop the incessant rushing that was the rule in STW. As I recall, most players didn't like that aspect of STW.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Ok consider this:
You cannot maintain the combat differential that exists between two units for the same cost as you go up the honor scale. A difference is taken before the probability to kill is calculated. For instance, an H2 WM (7/4) vs an H2 YS (2/4) has attack - defense = 7 - 4 = 3 when the WM strikes at the YS. The cost difference is 550 - 200 = 350 koku. An H4 WM (9/6) vs an H4 YS (4/6) has attack - defense = 9 - 6 = 3. That's the same relative advantage as at H2, but the cost difference is 1078 - 392 = 686 koku. That's a big difference in cost from the H2 units, and I haven't chosen the worst example which involves the YA. The result of this upgrade system is that the cheaper units can close the combat gap with the more expensive units for less koku. So, units are not maintaining the same cost relationship at different honor levels.
This is why I originally thought a fixed cost for upgrades was better. The present system has a proportional cost for buying these combat numbers, but the combat numbers are just put into a simple difference equation. It's the difference that's important.
To my mind, no upgrades for online play would be better than what we have now. All I think you need are sliding morale and fatigue scales selectable by the host instead of the present on/off choices. The units would maintain a fixed combat relationship. How's that for a suggestion? Less programming work, and you get a better online game. Everybody wins.
Yuuki
longjohn2
03-26-2002, 04:25
Puzz£D you're not understanding the combat system. A 1 factor advantage translates to a 20% more chance of a kill whatever the base factors. So whether it 1 vs 0 or 21 vs 20, its the same relative advantage. And its the same whether between cheap units, or between expensive units.
If there's an imbalance it's because the cost of the base units is not strictly proportionate to their combat factors.
longjohn2
03-26-2002, 04:27
I should also point out that in your example the ratios of the costs of the units are the same.
Hi longjohn,
Thanks for the response. Hmm... Yes it's true that the costs of the two H2 units are in the same ratio as the costs of the two H4 units, and the +2 WM honor points cost more (528 koku) than the +2 YS honor points (192 koku). However, the net advantage that the WM holds over the YS in combat is constant and independent of the honor upgrade because it's the difference in points that matters. I see it as though they both got the same upgrade only one cost more than the other. In practice, this means that the high priced units cannot keep pace with the lower priced units because the cost is prohibitive.
I'm viewing them as pairs of different type, upgraded units, and how they perform against each other. If I consider two YS units and upgrade one of them, then the proportional system of cost works perfectly. A YS costing 20% more translates into a 20% increase in combat effectiveness over another YS. That's because the units have the same base cost. Maybe that's what you are saying.
The problem seems to be: how do you create a cost based upgrade system for units with different base costs that tracks the relative combat effectiveness of all the units? Could a fixed cost system work better? That would give you independence from the base cost of each unit. However, TosaInu has pointed out that, because in the present system combat bonuses like yari infantry vs cavalry are unaffected by upgrades, the combat relationship between some unit types will not track a fixed cost very well either.
I hope you will be able to re-evaluate the whole online upgrade system for MTW. It's a shame to see the finely crafted unit balance you achieved go out the window due to the upgrade system. I think you did a great job on the game, and it's by far the best computer game I've ever played, and players are certainly free to play their online games under whatever home rules they choose. Your suggestion to keep the koku down in the lower range is a good one that minimizes the transformation that some of these low cost units can undergo.
Thanks again for posting to this thread,
MizuYuuki ~~~
shingenmitch2
03-26-2002, 21:59
Hi LongJohn
First of all, this is the best game I've ever played!
I love it.
We (Yuuk, me and others) just realize there are some problems with it and would like to see it be the Best it possibly can. Please take our criticisms in that light.
-------------------------------
That said, I think you missed Yuuki's point.
I have difficulty explaining in words simply the practical effects of what he was saying. But I will try. In practice, when you have a fixed koku amount 8,000 say -- and you are trying to fill 16 slots. My army might be:
3 HC, H2
1 YC, H2
3 guns, H2
3 SArch, H0
4 YA, H8 +upgrades ******
2 NDs H3-4
My strikeforce is the YA, H8 -- why?
Because for the money, nothing is better.
I am under 1,000 koku for each. I can kill cav. or footies.
For ANY koku amount, there is a threshold where a unit gets "too expensive" -- players try to find the unit that gets as high in combat power (honor) as possible without reaching that cost threshold.
In most cases you will find it is the YA -- because the cost that they scale exponentially up from is the lowest of any foot soldier (BY HALF).
Since combat power goes up exponentially, in the top ranges ANY unit becomes EXTREMELY powerful. Now, the YA gets up to the higher levels relatively cheaply. Thus I can have high level YA, and then other units to flesh things out.
Whenever you have a system where any unit-type can increase its ability so that at its top level, it can defeat other unit-types that it was not intended to beat, then you are at risk of disrupting the paper/scissors/rock effect set up to distinguish the different unit-types.
Now we could play 2,000 koku games --
But that doesn't resolve the underlying problem. What would happen is either you don't fill out a full army and have a couple of high Honor Units, or you get a full army that just routs too quick. (This is why separateing MORALE from the combat power/exprience upgrade would be helpful).
-------------------
I agree with Monkey in one respect -- in the CAMPAIGN -- High honor levels are not that problematic because it requires enormous TIME and Wins to slowly acrue those honor levels -- in reality a YA would never survive that long to get to H8.
ONLINE it is a different story when to get H8 it is a simple matter of purchase. (Guns are much the same -- campaign requires a major investment of treaties & resources to build up the dojo-- where online it is a cheap 175 to buy them)
[This message has been edited by shingenmitch2 (edited 03-27-2002).]
Again, I agree completely with Mitch http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Just, one thing, it is very easy to get high honour YA in the campaign. Keep them in reserve and sloughter routed units. This can give +1H/battle, thus you can have a H4 YA + general bonus (2 or 3, which gives H6 or H7 YA) after four battles! Of course you cannot manifacture a legion of high hounour YA in this way, only a few, but it can be done. In a similar way I had a H7 YC in my last campaign.
Kraellin
03-27-2002, 00:40
i cant even begin to follow yuuki's and longjohn's number battles, so i wont try. so lemme go another way. honor is honor. it's not skill. it's honor. in the game that translates to less routable. in real life a man might have high honor but 0 skill. he's protecting his family or fighting for his country or some such and even though he knows he cant beat someone of skill, he nonetheless stays and fights anyways. that's honor. honor isnt if you won or lost. it's not how many victories you have. that's a different thing.
now, skill can affect one's confidence and also make a person more willing to stay and fight, but it's still not truly honor. that's confidence. a person could have very little honor but a lot of confidence and still be willing to stay and fight. so there is a fine line there as to what makes up the willingness to stay and fight. and for the game's sake, we dont need to truly look too deeply into each man's willingness.
but, there is a flaw in tieing morale to skill. it always bothered me that a peasant was always considered 'without honor'. that is sheer nonsense. some poor bloke out there plowing a field with an ox and a stick may not have any fighting skill, but it doesnt mean he has no honor. in actual fact, a fellow with more honor would tend to cost less to hire than a fellow with 0 honor because the fellow with the higher honor would be more willing to fight for a cause, family, or country or whatnot. that also doesnt mean that all peasants are high honor to begin with. most likely they arent. but it also doesnt mean that a well trained samurai has any honor either. he might have a lot of a skill. he might have won a lot of honors, but it doesnt mean he's an honorable person just because he's samurai.
and even though i've stated this often before, i'll state it again here. armor and weapon's bonuses are flat fees. an armorer or weaponsmith makes armor or weapons based on fixed costs plus what he thinks he can charge the buyer for these, not based on what the unit's cost to the emperor or shogun or daimyo is. he might pad it a little if he knows a given daimyo is rich, but basing those upgrades on unit cost is strictly off the wall. sorry, but it is, and that one needs to be changed.
and yes, yuuki, i do recall the +12 and +4 thing and yes, it is interesting that that +4 is now where folks are tending to play. if you also recall when we/mi first came out it was an entirely different game re morale and folks were squawking like stuck geese, yet some liked it better. this just shows me that different folks play different games and have different considerations about things. thus, if at 5k koku the morale isnt enough, they'll play at 10k. but, if a guy that likes the 5k game plays at the 10k and finds the units completely different in how they act, then something is wrong with the relationship scales. yeah, ok, i'm stating the obvious to you...i'm just hoping longjohn is still listening :)
the problem with guns isnt the ammo. it's the modeling. we could have fixed the guns up better with 1.02 if the guns had that power curve we wanted. the problem with the guns was that they killed as well at 250 yards as they did at 5 yards. the reload times were also too short for the type of muskets available in that time period. dropping the ammo was simply a stop-gap measure to try and limit them due to the other problems that couldnt be fixed at the time.
so, the upshot. separate skill and morale upgrades. fixed costs for armor and weapons bonuses. 'honor' cant be bought. re-name honor to morale in the buying portion. re-name 'honor' to 'honors' in the competitive ratings. add 'cost per unit' as a user-adjustable parameter in multi games. fix the gun model with a power curve so guns are modeled more accurately.
i would also strongly suggest to CA that they model their games using multi. not that the multi crowd is the bigger crowd. it's obviously not, but that multi tends to put things under a finer microscope and thus points out more of the potential problems. once you have multi worked out, single is a breeze, but it doesnt work the other way around so well; working out single first will not make doing multi a breeze.
what can i say, longjohn; we're fanatics. ignore us ;)
K.
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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.
Kraellin,
Unit balance and upgrades are two separate issues, but in practice they are intertwined. The way upgrades work gives the online game added complexity which results in a long learning curve. Only people who play a lot become proficient in the online game. Single play experience is only useful in getting familiar with the interface mechanics even though you are using the exact same units. It's not surprising that only a few people stick with it, and that online attendance remains low.
Creating units with a certain rock, paper, scissors balance, and then allowing that balance to be transformed into something else seems contradictory. In the single player game, the taisho often provides a big percentage of the honor boost to an army. That boost is evenly distributed across the units in the army. The units usually only have small individual variation in honor depending on where they were trained. The online game has nothing like that. When I saw how the online purchasing worked for the first time, I was amazed. There are huge unit to unit variations possible online.
The monk rush, that was complained about so much in STW, was a direct result of purchasing units at honor=2, and the ability to sell back some of that honor to buy more monks. If the purpose of buying at honor=2 was to simulate a rank 4 taisho, then it was a solution with a terrible consequence. You would have a lot more stability in the present upgrade system if you bought all units at honor = 0, and any honor upgrade was evenly distributed over all units. You could still have individual weapon and armor upgrades since they have a modest 0 to 3 range which is less than 2x improvement to a unit. It doesn't solve all the problems, but I think would be better overall.
Longjohn's presence here shows he is not ignoring all the ideas. Ideas presented here at the Sword Dojo have been incorporated into the game. We just have to be careful about the consequences of what we ask for. The weapon and armor upgrades is and example of a community requested modification that I think does not enhance the online game.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
May I humbly suggest the forum moderator to save this thread and it's preceder to strategic archive, if this hasn't already happened yet?
Two reasons:
Those two "Real-affect-of-weapon" threads are arguebly the most constructive recent posts.
This topic seems to become a dead horse so people are not beating it anymore.
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Pain is weakness leaving the body.
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