Spears: stand or fight?

[Defensor Pacis]

I read that spears should be put on hold position and just soak up enemy attacks, because that way they keep their defence advantage through staying in lines with the soldiers behind supporting the soldier in front.

But I've also read that spears can be good hunters of cavalry, and so recently (playing on Spanish, and using Feudal Sergeants plus some leftover Spearmen that I haven't disbanded yet) I have started to use them to charge at horses and camals. They're pretty effective in this way too.

I presume the answer is to use spears in different ways depending on the situation. But can anyone give me any advice on when to stand and when to charge?

Thanks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[garion]

spearman are best used against cavalry and camels, ot ot stand ground. wtach out for other infantry units, because the can hack there way through the ranks. But their biggest enemy are archers/ they're rather slow, and not very good at defending against missiles. Swiss armoured pikemen are clearly the best type of spearmen, and the best way to stop htem is peppering hem with arrows

[Tribesman]

Some spears do have a reasonable charge , if I use them to charge then I halt them once contact has been made and use other units to push the enemy onto the spears .

[Defensor Pacis]

Thanks garion, I appreciate the advice.

Actually I don't usually find the enemy's archers to be a great problem, partly because I usually try and run them down with horses to stop them peppering me with arrows

I'm only just into the High Era on my current game (started on Early as Spanish, on High difficulty), and so haven't got to pikemen yet. I've been turning out halberdiers for a few years but haven't yet the chance to use them in combat, as my current battles are in the desert and I'm sticking to troops with lower armour. An ideal chance to get rid of my outdated spears by killing Egyptians rather than by simply disbanding them. What a waste of good soldiers that would be. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

[Defensor Pacis]

Tribesman, thank you for that suggestion, I'd never thought of doing this before - I am very grateful, must try that out

The poor AI won't know what's hit it ... or to be precise, it will know what's hit it, just before a spear goes through its head http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[garion]

I usually run down the archers asap as well, because they bother me. Using archers does work well for me, espescially longbows or bulgarian brigands

[Defensor Pacis]

Thanks Garion, I'll try using my archers on the spears. I must say it's nice to play with archers again: before playing as the Spanish, I was the Irish in VI, and could only get archers as mercenaries. Kerns are fun but harder to work.

Having just entered the High era I'm also enjoying having arbalasters. To see them scything down some stationary cavalry was a sight to behold.

But I haven't got to longbows yet (still waiting for them to turn up on my training window in Wales).

I will look out for Bulgarian Brigands to hire as mercenaries. What is so good about them?

[Maychargewithoutorders]

Spears are most effective at receiving a cavarly charge (as it says in their description), its just a case of getting the enemy cavarly to charge them The best method is probably putting your archers just infront of the spear wall, the AI usually charges since it seems like an easy target. Retreat your archers behind the spears and the horses get impaled. The trick is timing, too early and they realise, too late and your archers get stuck on the ranks of the spears and get crushed.

Something else that has worked for me is when they try to flank u. Usually i have some swords there for enveloping their front line but often get cavalry coming at them. With a unit of spearmen next to them change the facing using alt right-click and run the swords just behind the wall. You dont have to run them directly behind the unit, the cavarly charge in a straight line towards your swords, so arrange it so the horses hit the edge of your spears and your swords have a clean run towards safety. Since i usually have militia sergents backing up my flanks the cavarly get swamped.

I don't know how helpful this is to u, but so far in the game mounted units charging have been my biggest headache. It ok when they stay still - archers love a big target Its just when they start moving.....

[katank]

dude, halbs are not spears.

they are polearms. and thus is best used in engage rather than hold.

as for spears, I usually sit pretty with them until enemy cav is within jav range and then sometimes charge them with hold hold to maintain bonus.

depends on the spear.

if muwahid, I definitely charge although I use them to flank rather than eat cav charges. they don't have irresistible charge for nothing.

I personally prefer a staggered spear wall.

SSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSS
WWWW SSSSSSSSSSAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSWWW

where S are spears, A archers, and W swords.

that way, the enemy cav often charges the gap on the spear lines thinking it's a weakness and my swords instantly flank them while still being protected form being charged.

archers can hide behind like that or they can be in the front deployed skirmishing.

loose formation for spears until cav charge imminent is also good for lessening casualties from missiles and allowing your archers to retreat more easily.

archers in wedge come through easier between the spears.

[meravelha]

That's a nice formation, katank, I think I'll borrow it :)
For a defensive setup I'd add in more archers holding position behind the spears and xbows skirmishing ahead.

But my question is: how do you use a spear force when you are the attacker? Keeping everything together and balanced is a little harder then.

[Maychargewithoutorders]

Sorry katank i should make myself a bit more clear. The halbs charging into the horses, mainly so they dont get away. Plus their bonus vs armour gives a good chance of killing those bloody katanks (the unit that is http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ) To be honest it isnt always halbs just a unit to swamp them.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Defensor Pacis @ May 09 2004,11:55)]I presume the answer is to use spears in different ways depending on the situation. But can anyone give me any advice on when to stand and when to charge?
Consider morale. If you have a bunch of vanilla spearmen with poor morale, they could get wiped out if they lose formation while charging and are counter-attacked by a fresh unit, even a cavalry unit.

Other than that, I'd consider charging with any spear unit that doesn't have a bunch of missile troops to defend. If you can do more damage to the enemy with archers than with the spears, let the spears be bodyguards. If spears are all you have, consider a charge.

[ichi]

Quote[/b] ]But I haven't got to longbows yet (still waiting for them to turn up on my training window in Wales).

If you are playing the Spanish then you will never be able to build Longbows, no matter what you training facilities build in Wales.

Get Inns and LB will show up as Mercs.

ichi

[Vincenzo]

I usually avoid to charge with Muwahid spearmen againts cavalry, but english Billmen are able to hunt more horses that I could dream http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[SpencerH]

I charge with spears fairly often, especially when defending on a hill. Often I'll wait for the bowmen to exhaust their arrows then charge any remaining attackers. I find that in most cases once you start the rout its all over. The key is not to pursue too far or charge before the enemy is softened up.

Yesterday, I lost a good army (and a good general) against a much larger force in just that way. I obliterated the early spanish forces then repeatedly charged and withdrew against the reinforcements. Finally (thinking the spanish were down to peasants) my Swiss pikes and halberdiers kept advancing toward the spanish side as they routed them (and away from my pavise arbalasters). Unfortunately, the spanish had lots more strong units and my troops were eventually cut to pieces without the missle support that they had left behind.

[Satyr]

I almost never sit and take a charge. Even when defending I find it an advantage to charge at the oncoming enemy. This way I can usually do a pretty good job of getting the matchups I want. I try hard to get my spears attacking the enemy cav, my swords attacking the enemy spears and my cav attacking the enemy archers and swords. If I do this well and then flank with anyone that wins quickly I can achieve a veritable slaughter almost every time, even if the odds are against me. The trick is to not let your spears get engaged by the enemy's swords as they go down quickly. If you stand and take the charge the AI is good at gaining the advantage. If you are proactive it is not very good at reacting and victory is much more decisive.

[garion]

first of all, vincenzo I hope you know billmen are sort of halberdiers and defenately not spearman.

second of all, discussing strategies with spearman, trie cutting your army into pieces like this

WWWSSSSSS SSSSSSWWWW
SSSSSSS
CCC AAAAAAA AAAAAAA AAAAAAA CCC
CCC WWWW

then, move your left and right flank around the enemy. As soon as the enemy knows that he can't face his entire army towards you he will attack in the centre. pepper them with arrows and use your central spearman and troopsa placed behind the archers to stop the attack. then let you'r flanks attack theirs, which are usually kind of weak. crush the better troops with you're sword-spearman and use cavalry to run down peasants and archers. finally, let you're cavalry run down routers and let you're flanks cave in to kill of the troops still fighting in the middle

this strategy works best against large troop concentrations, on flat battlefields

[katank]

yep.

I love my staggered spear wall for the same reason.

the AI thinks there's a gap and suicidally charges in.

letting your center get slowly pushed back while flanks advance is also doable to get the enemy really pincered off and enveloped.

this is tough to do with lesser inf in center and can be disaster but nice when it works and suddenly the enemy gneral and his best troops are surrounded on all sides and peppered by missiles while moments before they seemed to be winning and pushing you back.

[Vincenzo]

Cita[/b] (garion @ May. 10 2004,15:21)]first of all, vincenzo I hope you know billmen are sort of halberdiers and defenately not spearman.
Thanks, Garion http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

My strategy


AAAAAAA AAAAAAA AAAAAAA

SSSSSSS WWWWWW SSSSSSS WWWWWWW SSSSSS

CCCCCC CCCCCCC CCCCCC

an then, charge
^ ^ ^ ^ ^
\ l l l /
\ l ^ l ^ l /
CCCC SSSS l SSSS l SSSS CCCC
l l
AAAA WWWW AAA WWWW AAAA
CCCC

Spearmen and swordmen chaging, cavalry flanking.

[Vincenzo]

I´m really sorried for the replication of the post http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
It´ll happen never again http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

How can I modify my post??

Could a moderator delete the replied post, please?

Thanks. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

[Herodotus]

I often use spearmen as an anvil on which my hammer (swords and cav) crush the enemy.

[Daveybaby]

Vincenzo, you should be able to delete the posts yourself

The top right corner of each of your own posts should have the words:

DELETE EDIT QUOTE

You may have also spotted the EDIT button by now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[garion]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif no no, that's not exactly true. we junior patrons can only quote. I know, because of the quality of our posts, you think we're members or even moderators but we're just new here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Defensor Pacis]

Thanks for the advice everyone I've learnt a lot from your answers. Really grateful. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Maychargewithoutorders – thanks for the tips. I don’t think I integrate my cav very well with other troops at the moment.

Katank – I like the look of that. Will try it although the Byzantines have just launched an unexpected attack on me so I’m kind of fighting for my life at the moment and don’t have my troops in the best order http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

ichi – that is very sad news, I was really looking forward to my longbows. Thanks for telling me, that will avoid heartache later

Spencer H – sounds like a nightmare defeat http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[katank]

yeah.

That is a decent formation that I like quite a bit.

If you only use staggered spears & archers, then you can take most early rabble.

however, the Byz are anything but so watch out.

I would try to run circles around them with HAs but you may not have that luxury.

what faction are you playing as?

[Kenseu]

Whoa. I seem to be the only orthodox person here, and I usually find my tactics to be over complex and screwed up. I used to use spear men a lot as the Turkish. But i started a VI and MedMod game as the HRE, and I found that abosolutely nothing the enemy has can withstand a blitzkrieg by 8-12 units of Swabian Swordsmen and Heerben (Plus some cavalry to flank and mop up afterwords). And now that I've got my Saxon Men-at-Arms, I can be throwing them in the mix too.

But since I've just reached the High Age, I cna start getting Teutonic Seargents and better spear and pike units, so I'll probably be adding them in. I find it handy to have a unit or two to hold the center line, and then my assault troops can push the edges back, and myCavalry can pull a flanking manuveur.

[katank]

teutonic seargents? they aren't buildable but instead are light medium cav available in crusades.

do you mean chivalric searges?

BTW, sword rushing is definitely going to win the battle just like heavy cav rushing but may not be the best way to win cost effectively.

I also love it when I open with 16 swabians with silver armor mowing down everything (henry the lion turned out as swabian in my game so I had a good geenral too).

However, cheapo spears shielding hordes and hordes of archers is simply more cost effective when you can make the spear wall hold and let the archers be replaced by reinforcements while taking little casualties.

arrows don't cost money. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[matfender]

I agree with the idea of the shield wall/archers, but I have a related question: what happens when the enemy starts to turn your flank?

[katank]

flank is protected by curved spear wall and a few cav.

ideal is to be defense and set up in a corner position with half hexagon staggered spear wall and have reinforcement rally point inside the defensive wall and you could hold practically indefinitely.

use some cav while having a curved shield wall is you answer and this is more often used on defense than attack although it works well against rabble even while attacking.

besides, hollow squares is also doable although I've only used it once for kicks.

[Gregoshi]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Hello Kenseu and welcome to the Org.

Have you tried building spearmen in Brittany? You should try it - a lot of people think Brittany Spears is hot.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[garion]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-party2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-party2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

What a great joke http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Maychargewithoutorders]

Quote[/b] (SpencerH @ May 10 2004,14:30)]Unfortunately, the spanish had lots more strong units and my troops were eventually cut to pieces without the missle support that they had left behind.
I thank the day i got VI The pre-battle troop screen lets you see which units are last on the list and (with a certain amount of patience) know when you are safe to charge them off the field http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

np Defensor enjoy your gaming

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ May 12 2004,14:56)]Have you tried building spearmen in Brittany? You should try it - a lot of people think Brittany Spears is hot.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rolleyes.gif

[Kenseu]

Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ May 12 2004,14:56)]Have you tried building spearmen in Brittany? You should try it - a lot of people think Brittany Spears is hot.
Thanks for the welcome. I actually registered here quite a while ago, but I never posted. I random;y decided to remedy that, so here I am.

Oh, and do you get immunity against insulting moderators if they make bad jokes? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

As for Katank: I'm playing Medieval Mod, which allows you to train the Teutonic Units. But, as far as I can tell, they are just renamed Chivalric Seargents.

[Captain Kevin Darling]

I've just done the battle tutorials again cos I was bored and one of the battles I think was in bulgaria where you have 200 spears and two line of archers behind. the byzs come up the hill, 90 katanks and byz inf and it shows you the real importance of hold formation and morale. If you charge you'll lose, if you stand there you'll win easy it's pretty outstanding

I also did the tutorials for that crazy guy who tells you the orders and so on - 'NO that it is wrong'

[Defensor Pacis]

Katank - I'm playing as the Spanish, but so far the Byz have been disappointing. I had one fight against a unit of Kataphraktoi, who simply sat and absorbed my arbalesters before fleeing when down to 2 men I've just assassinated the king and heir, and started a civil war. But in the meantime I've had major rebellions, reappearance of Germans, French AND Egyptians, invasions of my lands left right and centre (literally), so it's going to be a case of minimising the damage while sending out hordes of assassins to turn my enemies grey

[SpencerH]

Quote[/b] (Maychargewithoutorders @ May 12 2004,15:12)]
Quote[/b] (SpencerH @ May 10 2004,14:30)]Unfortunately, the spanish had lots more strong units and my troops were eventually cut to pieces without the missle support that they had left behind.
I thank the day i got VI The pre-battle troop screen lets you see which units are last on the list and (with a certain amount of patience) know when you are safe to charge them off the field http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

np Defensor enjoy your gaming
I have VI too, but couldnt be arsed to look through all the spanish reinforcements since they had 3000-4000 men compared to my 16 units (~1000).

[ah_dut]

It's quite easy to maul a swird based blitzkrieg http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif but not cheaply. damn. A decent wall of horse archers along with a core of good infantry and cav should do the job. Basically play turk style. The swords i agree however are damn lethal and easy to use. I agree however as a fellow medmod player that the German's have a great selction of sword units. However beware the English muntators well used they can decimate your armies. trust me i've tried it with the HRE, my heerban and my swabians slaughtered easily. my dienstlute (sp?) have to catch up on the flank but the damage is done, same goes for Jinetes Watch you back my German friend

[Ellesthyan]

Playing medmod I often find myself using lots of regular spearmen. They are reliable (reliable to run not TOO fast, at least), and can give a nasty charge. Besides that they are cheap enough to throw away http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-devil.gif and often you don't have much of choice, as in the early era cavalry is all mighty and foot troops won't cut it (yet) anyway.

However, some spears I use as if they were swords with a devilish rank bonus; pikemen for example. Playing the swiss is a breeze as not much can hold those armoured pikes for long...

One word of advice, Kenseu, please rely on your teutonics. It's the best you'll get, and you'll need their reliability for your more fickle swords and axes to attack the flanks. Besides, they're easy to build, cheap, and powerful enough to hold the line for half a minute against almost any unit (in normal circumstances).

EDIT: ACK, should use spell check more often

[katank]

@ Defensor Pacis, the Byz are only strong in early.

id they get 20 years or so to build up and don't get wiped out in the meanwhile, they become fearsome.

silver armoured v1 katanks popping out of Const every turn commanded by these harcore 9* heirs backed by solid walls of Byz inf, varangians, and treb archers, there's little that can stop them.

however, in high, your CMAA have better shots at killing byz inf than FMAA and chiv seargents can hold the line better against katanks and lancers can and will decimate the swords and treb archer ranks.

even so, they still can remain competitive in high although I've never seen a truly prosperous Byz AI in High or Late.

@ Kenseu, the swords are good but can be killed by HAs etc. also heavy cav. They are also not that cost effective.

they can be run ragged and then killed off. A mobile battery of spear wall and archers with a few swords and some cav do things far more cost effectively.

while winning the miltary war and resolving battles quickly, your swords could be losing you the economic war.

just my two cents. In general, balanced army with slightly missile heavy does best against the AI.

[Satyr]

Where as I think a slightly sword and cav heavy army is best for dealing with the AI. The AI tends to build spear and archer heavy armies. I slaughter his spears with my swords, his cav with my spears, his swords go down to my cav, and his archers die to everyone. It seems that if I use spears to take the bulk of the AI's charge, I lose many more men than if I arrange the matchups myself.

If I am facing many cav then absolutely I will take the charge with my spears on hold, or I will put my swords in the woods. But I just don't face that kind of army very often and so I prefer more swords and less spears.

[katank]

I just love the efficiency of cheapo spear wall shielding archers at routing rabble.

the AI doesn't even build many swords or heavy cav at all.

their spears march up only to be hit by volleys.

even if they don't rout, they usually rout upon contact with my spear wall.

against better armies, more swords and cav doable.

note: mongols are only really cav heavy AI force I ever deal with in which case I have tons of swords and axes waiting in the forest for them.

BTW, I modded in Jomsvikings to the regular map.

anyone have any idea how powerful these are when you have 16 of them and got a few armor and weapon upgrades for them?

pure slaughter. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[SpencerH]

This is my first campaign where I've gotten Swisss pikes and halberdiers. Awesome (as they were in reality).

[Defensor Pacis]

@ katank: thank you, that is really useful to know

I appreciate your advice on this topic, and everyone else who has contributed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cheers.gif

[Satyr]

Ahhhhh Katank now that makes sense. I play Medmod and never face rabble. You really should lift your game to the next level and try it. You too will be building more swords. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

[katank]

I played medmod too.

I played english before and still went missile heavy.

that's only because of melee capacity of longbows though.

otherwise, I would also build more swords.

[Ludens]

Is there any bonus for standing spearmen (other than the rank bonus when in formation)? I know that spearmen won't suffer the charge bonus from cavalry when cavalry attacks head-on, but this only makes sense if the spearmen can place their spears on the ground, in other words: when they are standing still. Is this taken into account in the combat calculation?

[katank]

are you sure the cav doesn't get charge bonus?

I really doubt that.

I think that instead the spears' 4 defence bonus counteracts a lot of the charge.

[SpencerH]

A tactic I've tested with custom battles is to use spears in 3 rows when attacking other spears. The object is to have a wider front than your opponent's spears, then once the melee has begun allow 'engage at will'. In my tests, normally fronted spears (on both sides) will lose 60 men to defenders 40. The tactic I mentioned above switches the result to 40 attackers lost to 60 defenders.

[garion]

I think that even when spearman are not standing still, they could still stop a charging horse or when the horses are really charging fast (I'm talking real life tactics here) they could put the back of the spear on the ground and slaughter the oncoming army. for a discussion on foot-soldiers against armies of knights read something about the 'guldensporenslag' in southern belgium in 1302 where belgian peasant defeated french knights in the kortrijk-swamps

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (katank @ May 17 2004,19:44)]are you sure the cav doesn't get charge bonus?
According to Puz3D, they don't. At least not in STW. See his second post in Correct use of Yari troops: How does the spear bonus works? (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=13758)


Quote[/b] ]I think that even when spearman are not standing still, they could still stop a charging horse or when the horses are really charging fast (I'm talking real life tactics here) they could put the back of the spear on the ground and slaughter the oncoming army.
But how could the put the butt of the spear in the ground if they are not standing still?

[SpencerH]

Quote[/b] (garion @ May 18 2004,09:52)]I think that even when spearman are not standing still, they could still stop a charging horse or when the horses are really charging fast (I'm talking real life tactics here) they could put the back of the spear on the ground and slaughter the oncoming army. for a discussion on foot-soldiers against armies of knights read something about the 'guldensporenslag' in southern belgium in 1302 where belgian peasant defeated french knights in the kortrijk-swamps
The key is whether the spearmen are brave enough to stand in place. I recommend you find a version of Waterloo with Rod Steiger and Christopher Plummer. It was filmed with russian soldiers as the extras. Despite the fact that they knew the 'French' cav, under Marshall Ney's command, would charge around the 'British' squares, it still took many takes for the russian troops to stand their ground.

[katank]

that's pretty interesting.

standing ground is the tough part.

that may be why most spears have 0 morale.

if they don't break in the initial cav charge, then they will likely hold up.

otherwise, they are screwed.

for back of spear into ground, you could potentially do it running jus tnot all the way into the horse.

charge forward and close to moment of impact plan spear in ground and draw a sword.

the groudn takes cav shock better than your own person.

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (katank @ May 19 2004,04:48)]for back of spear into ground, you could potentially do it running jus tnot all the way into the horse.

charge forward and close to moment of impact plan spear in ground and draw a sword.
And the spear will break and the (dead) horse will just run over you or possibly collapse on top of you. The point is not to kill the horse, but to stop it from running over you, and if possible to stop they guy on top from cleaving your skull.

A medieval cavalry charge was all about momentum. They used long lances and sheer force to punch through formations. On occasion, knights even managed to break pike formations Off course, this were probably rare occurrences when fighting ill trained pikemen, but still.

Trying to put a spear in the ground in such a way that it will take the charge of the horse, while you are running, the horse is running and you are also trying to draw your sword sounds so impossible that I am sure I have misunderstood you. This reminds me of the idea that a no dachi (Japanese two handed sword) could stop a charging horse by cutting off its legs