View Full Version : I would like to find the man who made the phalanxes move to the right
mandrake
10-08-2004, 23:12
Find him and plunge my fingers deep into his chest, like that crazy voodoo priest in The Temple of Doom, pull his heart out and eat it.
Yes, I'm gonna rant now.
WHY, for the love of all that does not suck, must my hoplites, after I've told them to STOP, to GUARD THIS POSITION, to FORM A PHALANX, in short, to F%#$@ STAY THERE AND POINT YOUR STICKS FOWARD, start to inch to the right as soon as the enemy hits them? Whoever DESIGNED this feature? Did a SINGLE F%@#$ person over there try to defend a city with this setup? I can't defend a single street! It's like they're MOCKING ME!
"Oh, de gate eez down, move over guyz, bedder let dem through!"/stupid accent
\
:dizzy2:
"HALT-HALT-HALT-HALT-HALT-HALTHALTHALTHALTHALT"
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:charge:
"Somebody hear someding?"
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:dizzy2:
"Nah just ignore hiARRRGHHHHH"
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:dizzy2:
I cant TAKE IT ANYMORE! Someone MOD THIS OUT! DISABLE IT! SEND IT TO THE DEEPEST DARKEST CIRCLE OF H3LL so I'll NEVER have to see it AGAIN!
\
:furious3:
DisruptorX
10-08-2004, 23:17
Man, the part about the accent just cracked me up. I can just hear the the "greek" hoplites saying that in their hybrid french/middle eastern accent.
Doug-Thompson
10-08-2004, 23:17
I know this doesn't help, but ....
... it's a well documented historical fact that ancient soldiers in any kind of "shield wall" would wince and cower try to close in behind the other guy's shield when they faced the prospect of getting violently killed.
Their left side was covered by their own shield. Their right side, where the arm was holding the spear, was more exposed. Therefore ....
Colovion
10-08-2004, 23:22
yep, it did happen - but I doubt it happened that much once battle was engaged - it probably mostly happened when marching in a "straight" line
mandrake
10-08-2004, 23:30
That's true Doug, but all I'm saying is that they sure didn't go through a lot of trouble to keep us from remembering that we're playing a game over here. Didn't they see how this feature would just totally screw up siege battles?
They have the elephants bouncing people around like beach balls, guys humping 100 lbs of gear running faster than my mother drives, I mean couldn't they just oversee this eetsy-bitsy little detail about the shields?
They're so retarded that they can't turn when I tell them to anyway, I already got them running in circles when I tell them to go down a street, and now they can't even SIT and STAY? My COCKER SPANIEL can do that.
I mean, please, come on, CA guys, it's funny, ha-ha, I'm laughing see, now let's just take this stupid a#$ feature out and forget it never existed ok? Pretty please. With sugar on top.
mandrake
10-08-2004, 23:33
Pretend. Pretend it never existed. It's just that my mind...I mean...I've been playing this one battle over and over. They just won't...stop...MOVING...*sobbing*
There is historical evidence that in phalanx warfare that the two sides in the battle reversed positions on eachother over the course of the battle. Now the problem of course is that in a real battle the entire phalanx would be the line but in here it is a number of smaller units. So instead of two giant lines switching we have a number of smaller lines switching. But I think it is a nice nod to historical accuracy. It's weird. I've been reading both here and at the TW center and in both places you've got people saying the game is too historical (eg: the phalanx moving or the Spartans not having corinthian helms) and those saying the game is too RTS. I guess you can't please everyone. :)
DisruptorX
10-08-2004, 23:48
If they wanted to make it historically accurate, they could start by not making chariots turn on a dime or better still, putting the marius reforms at the proper date.
The phalanx's moving is a game flaw. period.
I wouldn't say it is a flaw. The game was coded that way. They probably call it a feature. :)
And from what the CA guys are saying on this forum, in the patch they are going to push the Marian reforms back. Not sure how much though. As for the chariots I've not had much experience with them yet, so I don't know.
Screw the Marian Reforms, I could hand Urban Cohorts their arses if I could get a Phalanx to stay still and take them on properly.
Jango Fett
10-09-2004, 03:51
you think your phalanx is bad, try doing stuff with the testudo formation...its even more retarded..your soldiers actually mutate into turtles and move around incredibly slowly with some f the retarded soldiers holding a shield above their head and wobbling around a couple of metres away from the rest of their unit. ~:grouphug: testudo my ass.
Here is a simple solution, which might not work, but here goes:
WATCH OUT FOR THEM IF THEY START TO MOVE PAUSE THE GAME AND RETURN THEM, DON'T BOTHER TRYING TO STOP THEM.
"Historical Accuracy is good :bow: but shouldn't a disciplined unit of soldiers be commeted to listening to thier commander if he tells them to STOP!!!!!!!!!!" :furious3:
you think your phalanx is bad, try doing stuff with the testudo formation...its even more retarded..your soldiers actually mutate into turtles and move around incredibly slowly with some f the retarded soldiers holding a shield above their head and wobbling around a couple of metres away from the rest of their unit. ~:grouphug: testudo my ass.
I have used the Testudo and they are tactically worthless.
1) The archers are able to kill my legionaires.
2) They don't accomplish anything with that speed. They actually get shot MORE!!!
3) It takes a long time to switch to and fro the formation.
:dizzy2:
agreed - testudo sucks.
I dunno about phlanax though, i haven't used it yet :) but the greeks defend very well with it - it takes forever to break through and in that time you're being shot at by the towers!
you think your phalanx is bad, try doing stuff with the testudo formation...its even more retarded..your soldiers actually mutate into turtles and move around incredibly slowly with some f the retarded soldiers holding a shield above their head and wobbling around a couple of metres away from the rest of their unit. ~:grouphug: testudo my ass.
Don't even get me start on the Testudo. The ONLY time I used it, four units went walkies in completely the wrong direction, one broke apart with one half of the unit not moving and the other half moving off without them, and the last unit didn't even bother. They just walked there.
could be group command bug too...
randwaldron
10-09-2004, 21:23
I think the realism is great. That's what the total war series is founded on. Think about the frustrations real ancient commanders had: units disobeyed orders or refused orders, phalanxes drifted to the right, archers chewed up your troops-- and there was no pause button!
-- A Phalanx cannot hold still. It must push forward or it will be pushed backwards, spread out and killed. Think about the line of scrimmage in a football game or a scrum in rugby: both side push forward, if one doesn't it will be bowled over and pushed back in a second.
-- Testudo was only used in seige situations, it was too unwieldy and slow for use in open combat.
You have to understand the system.
A phalanx in RTW does not tolerate non-rectangular forms. The soldiers are locked together in a solid formation and it will keep that way - in short, the phalanx "rotating" simply means your phalanxes cannot defend the ground anymore and are in the process of losing. They are being pushed too hard.
Try this test - it's possible in RTW to utilize the "halt" command to create the famous diagonal formations of Epinomendas. Set them up diagonally, click the ground to change the unit heading(the soldiers change heading to start a march) and then immediately press halt. The soldiers are lined up diagonally, but they will be facing forward. Most of the infantry units can do this. However, engage the phalanx command and you will see they change heading again to form a rectangle.
RTW phalanxes are absolutely rectangular. If the soldiers at one side of the phalanx dies out too much, or are too much pushed back by enemy numbers, the soldiers shuffle to balance the enemy pressure evenly on both sides of the phalanx - thus, it rotates, or changes heading.
Like mentioned, this happens when the phalanx meets overwhelming numbers and pressure. You have both the "phalanx" command and the "guard" command going - and this can be mutually incompatible against overwhelming odds. To keep fighting at that exact spot, and at the same time maintain a phalanx formation, they move and shuffle at that spot to keep the pressure even at all ends.
The solution; use Rclick+drag just behind the initial point to back them up a bit. An alternative is to use alt+Rclick+drag to manually order them to try and regain a certain heading - the soldiers will try to fight back and push themselves again into a certain heading, although imperically this seems to inflict a bit higher casualties.
If you neither is possible in the situation - then its bad tactics.
Xxl3o0mxX
10-09-2004, 21:44
SOMEONE has anger problems :D.
johnross2007
10-09-2004, 21:56
Phalanxes historically go right. The Spartans did the best at marching straight while going down a hill. Everyone pushes on the guy to the right, causing the phalanx to go right. The last line pushes left to counter the right pushing and keeping it from falling apart. While in the game they march straight(i guess they have good discipline in game) they do go right in combat. A phalanx would suck without this pressure on the right. It's what makes them able to push the enemy back because of the immense pressure put on them.
And once again, how many greek formations on the defence lost the battle because the whole unit mashed itself into the right side of the street or cliff face, or moved out of the way of the gate?
I simply object to such an idea. There's nothing that can push back against a right moving phalanx in battle more than a SOLID STONE WALL.
They can move all they bloody well want in field combat, but no formation holding a street would smash itself into the wall so the enemy can just flank them. It makes zero God damn sense, and I also seriously doubt a Hoplite defending a gate would allow himself to end up halfway down the street instead of staying in front of that bloody gate.
Well Khorak the reason for "no formation holding a street would smash itself into the wall so the enemy can just flank them" is because hoplites did not fight in street battles. At least in the reading I've done of them it was never done. Hoplites are meant for fighting in flat spaces where two long battle lines can be drawn and then they just push at eachother. The Greeks weren't much for sieges and their units reflect that.
Well Khorak the reason for "no formation holding a street would smash itself into the wall so the enemy can just flank them" is because hoplites did not fight in street battles. At least in the reading I've done of them it was never done. Hoplites are meant for fighting in flat spaces where two long battle lines can be drawn and then they just push at eachother. The Greeks weren't much for sieges and their units reflect that.
So at Thermopylae the Spartans used harsh language and feather dusters to hold the Persians at bay.
Colovion
10-10-2004, 02:00
a cramped city street isn't a mountain pass
next
They can move all they bloody well want in field combat, but no formation holding a street would smash itself into the wall so the enemy can just flank them. It makes zero God damn sense, and I also seriously doubt a Hoplite defending a gate would allow himself to end up halfway down the street instead of staying in front of that bloody gate.
It's the system. It basically comes down to "if you know this happens, then why do you let it happen?". The phalanx formation is kept absolute in the game. It's what holds them together, and its what makes them such deadly, cost-efficient units.
There could be a very easy solution by making the phalange buckle and break apart when the pressure is too high, and then get slaughtered by close range melee units, so this "unrealistic bullshi*" never happens. If that's ever implemented, if you place the phalange at the wrong place at the wrong time with wrong orders against high pressure, they'd be routing long before you can see this abnormalties which upset you so much.
But you wouldn't want this, would you?
As it is, unless significant casualties are inflicted and continuously shaken in morale, the phalanx men will hold together and never break until all of them are surrounded and gets killed. Considering that trait which makes them so deadly in the game, the "problem" you have is a minor penalty. Maybe you should consider that.
At Thermopylae it was the Spartans who were the best at fighting and keeping their formation. Before their allies left it was each of the contingents taking their turn and then pulling back to let the next unit fight. Colovion is right though that a city street is not a mountain pass.
I think the problem is that in a real battle the entire greek army would be the phalanx. Thus the two forces were still having a battle line facing eachother. Here we can only simulate it with a bunch of units acting individually. Thus they each rotate and leave their flanks and rear open to others. What I would like is an added formation to the group that is available if all units are phalanx units. That would be a "Grand Phalanx" where even if they rotate the entire line stays as one contiguous line.
Marius Maxentius
10-10-2004, 05:28
Simple solution to your problems, men:
God has brought to my attention that Phalanxes aren't useless, and can be incredibly effective if used to protect gates in a special multiple-unit formation.
\_/
Three units of Hoplites/otherLesserspearmen in sort of a "U" formation work quite well. Double-line it if you have enough men. Yeah, the Phalanxed units still dance to the right, but it doesn't matter. Anything that comes through the gate and into your "U" dies...quickly. Have some archers a little ways away to fire flaming arrows or something into the "U" and blamo: You have yourself a very frighteningly successful way of defending a city.
Now, in the words of some R&B dude I heard on the radio the other day: "Step to the right."
~:cheers:
Your u looks like this, right (first line is gate)
__
\___/
Del Arroyo
10-10-2004, 06:11
Some people's ability to suspend their common-sense gut-check amazes me.
Do you really think that men with shields and spears would be utterly incapable of fighting in city streets?
Get real, people.
History isn't accurate when it contradicts reality.
DA
Del the phalanx as a system of fighting was a long line (usually at least 100 soldiers wide) of between 8 to 30 men deep. The formation is utterly unsuited to fighting in cities, because that formation can't even fit in a bloody city. Now spears standing in a line protecting a street works fine. If they were fighting in the city they would not be using the phalanx. Has anyone tried taking that ability off? Do they still drift to the right?
Del Arroyo
10-10-2004, 07:05
Why couldn't the men with spears form in close order, form a shield wall and present a serried wall of spears? What about being in a street prevents them from doing this? Be specific.
And if a phalanx, as you claim, must be at least 100 men wide, then even the largest units in MTW are about 80 men too skinny to begin with.
Men can form a shield wall, be in close order, and present a line of spears. This however is not the phalanx. The phalanx is not a defensive formation. It is an attacking formation. You get a huge line of men that is 8 to 32 deep and then you thrust it into the enemy army. The first could guys do the fighting and everyone else pushes from the back. If someone dies then the next person steps in. The reason for moving everything to the right is that the soldiers were not that heavily armored and the shield was their main form of protection. Thus they want to get in under the protection of the shield bearer on their right.
The problem with the TW system of units is that it doesn't differentiate between armies that are organized in parts and those that are one. With Roman legions there was clear seperation of the three ranks, and in there it was further broken down into cohorts and centuries and so on. There was spacing between units. The RTW system works perfectly for them, other than perhaps lacking some formation tools to keep them organized in the formations they used.
Phalanxes though is just one huge line of men. Being a soldier without a guy on your right holding a shield for you is extremely dangerous. That's why the formation stayed together so closely. If you didn't you were dead very quickly. Also why no one liked to be the guy with no shield protecting him.
If you take a Roman legion and make 20 units you can fairly well approximate the building and organization of that body and use it in battle, because a roman legion was broken into many parts. You can't do that with a phalanx though. There is no way you can make 1000+ men be in a single unbroken line. That's why I'd like for groups that are all phalanx capable units to have a phalanx formation where they all stand in a line with no space between them. That would be a pretty good approximation of a phalanx force. Right now all we got is a bunch of phalanx units fighting individually.
that right drift meant i almost lost in a battle 200 hoplites vs 150 milita hoplites. down with it~!
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