View Full Version : RTW vs MTW: are missile simulation details lost?
Pardon me if I am wrong, but it seems that in RTW, CA has lost a lot of "detail-work" regarding how missile simulation works. In MTW, archers were losing accuracy if shooting from more than 2 ranks deep and the ranks beyond the 3rd were simply not shooting at all. In RTW, the other day, I had an archer unit 8 ranks deep, all ranks shooting away... The same about javelins: a unit 10 ranks deep... all shooting at the same time... The kill rates were not any worse than from shooting 2 ranks deep. What's going on?
On a different note: having to spread hoplite units thin just does not seem right... Hoplite phalanx had up to 10 ranks supporting each other which does not seem to be implemented here at all. 1) Hoplite units should have rank bonus (it does not seem to work in RTW); 2) Hoplite/Spear units should be larger (like they were in MTW) relative to cavalry units; 3) A player should be given the opportunity to group several hoplite units together and move/attack with them as one: that would be the real phalanx - impossible to beat from the front, vulnerable from flanks and the rear.
Sam Adams
10-11-2004, 17:50
"The same about javelins: a unit 10 ranks deep... all shooting at the same time... The kill rates were not any worse than from shooting 2 ranks deep. What's going on?"
roman legionaries were well trained at throwing their pilum above the heads of their front ranks. Remember, these are not conscript british archers from mtw... these are elite romans... seems perfectly reasonable to me that they use their javelins to better effect.
Even then the first ranks have better sight and are fireing from closer range, so they will be less accurate as a 2 ranks deep unit.
I do like my javalins get to throw some javalins from behind a friendly unit, not like MTW where most didnt throw and the rest were hitting your own units.
Remember, these are not conscript british archers from mtw... these are elite romans
Actually before the Marian reforms they were constripts ~;)
CBR
Sam Adams
10-11-2004, 18:16
at least i can expect my urban cohort to fight effectively with their pilum, cant I:P
Murmandamus
10-12-2004, 02:06
Not losing accuracy is probably related to the high friendly fire problem. Maybe they just have no awareness of any other man than their target?
Maybe we need to test the effectiveness of hastati pila in different formation depths. Notice how hastati etc can throw their pila in deep formation at point blank range with 0 friendly kills and yet archers 3 ranks deep firing at medium range can kill 10 or more in the same number of volleys?
I've had 2 units of cretan archers 3 deep formation standing just on the wall side of a sapping point for a city assault. When the wall went down, they started firing on the defenders while I went and managed another section of the wall. When I came backa couple minutes later, there was only ~30 left in each unit from 80. All friendly fire. Archers are majorly screwed up in RTW. Not only are they so retarded that they just wipe themselves and other units out, but the arrows also seem to have very flat trajectories from what I have seen.
I can understand friendly fire in the second half of the missile trajectory but to have them shoot a man standing right in front of them is just plain rediculous.
I no longer take archers in my armies. They require too much micro management to avoid friendly fire making them too much of a liability and that's put a big negative on my overall enjoyment of the game.
I agree.
In MTW, the archers were actually CAREFUL. CA people themselves said that an archer would hold his fire as long as he saw a distinct possibility to shoot on of his comrade if he fired.
As such, they wouldn't fire when another unit is traversing them, and they would switch target if the units they were targetting entered mélée, unless you specifically ordered them to continue to shoot. All in all, it was PLEASURABLE, because you didn't had to babysit them stupidly.
Not only the archers are utterly idiotics in RTW, not only they kill more of yours than of them, but they also are a pain to manage, as they don't stop to fire when you order them, making them even more painful to manage, if possible.
The_Emperor
10-12-2004, 10:54
Next time you pepper an enemy unit with arrows take a look at the spread of missed arrows on the ground... Unlike MTW units now fire in a very wide spread of arrows and a lot of them miss.
In MTW Archers almost had laser sights as they would either hit the unit or the arrows would sail past behind it. Now that doesn't happen, and arrows can be undershot as well as overshot (which is always possible in reality), and that explains why shooting so dangerous now.
Also I though it was real funny when I had two roman units in front of my archers (further in front so they didn't get hit), I panned the camera down to give me an archers-eye-view and I noticed all they could see was the backs of my men!!
So in that situation my archers shouldn't have been able to shoot in my opinion and it was very unrealistic that they launched volley after volley over the heads of my Romans at targets with no line of sight to the enemy.
Do you think you'd be able to see past the heads of 80 or so Romans standing in close formation in front of you? I think not.
In reality archers would be the ones out in front shooting and then withdrawing back, they would only behind a line of men if they could adequately see the enemy that would most probably be in one of the following situations...
1) either the enemy were on higher ground in front and could be seen from further back.
2) your archers were on higher ground behind your linesand could see clearly ofer the heads of your men.
3) your men in front kneeled down in front of the archers to give them a clear view.
As I see it the Friendly Fire Issue encourages you to use the archers the way they were most often used that is. To stand in front and shoot the enemy as they advance and then retire back behind the main line when the enemy get close.
Seems reasonable to me.
Del Arroyo
10-12-2004, 11:05
The consequence for having archers behind your lines should be lack of firepower, not the wanton slaughter of your own army.
DA
The_Emperor
10-12-2004, 11:36
The consequence for having archers behind your lines should be lack of firepower, not the wanton slaughter of your own army.
DA
I agree, but hey accidents happen. Just look at Gulf War 2... ~;)
Not losing accuracy is probably related to the high friendly fire problem. Maybe they just have no awareness of any other man than their target?
Maybe we need to test the effectiveness of hastati pila in different formation depths. Notice how hastati etc can throw their pila in deep formation at point blank range with 0 friendly kills and yet archers 3 ranks deep firing at medium range can kill 10 or more in the same number of volleys?
.
your hastati not doing friendly fire kills? where did u train them??? if i leave mine on autofire: the majority of missile kills they get is friendly kills (i can see my unit icons blinking the "under missile attack" icon and going down in numbers FAST... top that off with hastati losing their charge bonus and being annihilated by the enemy charge if doing their "normal" attack: throwing pila and attacking...
Hah!! Medieval English trained long and hard with the bow they were far superior to 'elite' (??) Romans
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