View Full Version : STW mod
Yuuki and I have been working on finishing Barocca's STW mod so it would come as close to original STW as possible. But we have done a few corrections to improve the balance (yes even old STW wasnt perfect heh)
Of course the mod cant get precisely like the good old days as valor upgrades cost more. But the basics with a nice rock-scissor-paper system is there.
The mod also contains the MI units so the question is if we should make a original STW era AND a MI era. One big difference between STW and MI are the cav speeds and muskets (but that also depends what MI version we are talking about)
So right now we basically have STW but with the MI units included and slightly better muskets. As MTW is different we can never have something precisely like old STW/MI but we can get close.
All the old STW maps are in the process of being converted and we still need to look at a few units so its not finished yet.
CBR
Let me know when its finished I played the old beta version last year and it was pretty good so I have high hopes it will be good, you can mail me CBR m8 or leave a note at the Takiyama site if you need me for any testing games.
Just please make sure spears kill cav a major thing missing from MTW that did happen in Shogun.
I hope the community trys it out be nice to play some games whilst we waiting to see if CA bother to try and sort out Rome.
MizuSp00n :charge:
L'Impresario
11-08-2004, 20:31
The mod also contains the MI units so the question is if we should make a original STW era AND a MI era. One big difference between STW and MI are the cav speeds and muskets (but that also depends what MI version we are talking about)
CBR
No need to ask such a question when the answer is obvious ~:). The fact that MTW allows multiple eras is begging the finalisation of such a mod. You could even use multiple versions of the MI stats, if there is a disagreement about them ~;)
Orda Khan
11-08-2004, 23:32
I was under the impression that the Mongol units have not been included because the Mod was never finished??
As far as I am aware they still have yet to be completed so I would question the worth of adding 'MI', afterall it only introduced Japanese fantasy units besides.
Unless the Mongol units are finished and added I honestly don't see the point, considering the popularity of Mods with the community and, of course, when the majority are playing RTW now anyway. Sad but true
.....Orda
It was necessary to change the projectiles.txt file to get STWmod guns and Community mod xbows properly adjusted. MTW only supports one projectiles.txt file at a time, so it breaks compatibility with MTW/VI. However, we will include a projectile file swapper so players can go back an forth between the mod and regular MTW/VI. Swapping projectiles.txt requires that you restart the game.
Another advantage of changing the projectiles.txt is the removal of upgrade discounts on ranged units which are specified in that file. This means you won't see ranged units being pumped up into high quality melee units. You also won't see cheap units like yari ashigaru getting pumped up into super units because the valor upgrade is more expensive in MTW, and the weapon and armor upgrades are properly calculated using the current value of the unit rather than being computed from the base cost as was done in WE/MI. The samurai archers do retain the modest melee capability they had in original STW which is just a result of going back and using original STW combat stats for everything. All the movement speeds are the original STW speeds with the exception of cavalry archers which are slightly faster, and now equal speed of the yari cavalry.
You can't sell off valor because all units are purchased at valor 0, and the 20% tax on more than 4 of the same unit is still there. We have no control over those features. All unit costs are 2x the original STW costs, but we moved naginata (425) and yari cavalry (475) to the closest multiple of 100. We are experimenting with the warrior monk at 10% higher cost than in original STW, and several units such as naginata and yari cavalry have +2 morale enhancements. Right now playing at 10k or11k morale feels ok with no valor upgrades. Units will rout when used poorly and fight well when used properly. You don't have super units like v3 cmaa with 14 combat points clobbering your spears. This could open the door to modest weapon and armor upgrades since you don't have to spend the money on valor just to raise morale. We want to make final determination of tweaks such as these morale changes by battle testing with anyone who wants to try it.
The spears do work, and they work very well. Yari samurai have 2 defensive combat points, but they +8 attack points when fighting cav. The best cav is heavy cav with 8 combat points (2 attack and 6 defense). So, the yari sams have a +2 attack point (40%) advantage against the best cav. Naginata cav with 6 points and yari cav with 5 points will get chewed ver fast by yari sams. There is also the yari ashigaru which although weaker and lower morale is faster than yari sam, and quite dangerous to cav.
Seeing as the arquebusiers were not popular in STW we opted to depart from original STW by not including that unit. Instead, the Portuguese teppo in STWmod has the same characteristics as the musket in original STW. The Japanese teppo, which was a better made teppo, is 50% better. This unit would not be included in the STW era, but would be in the STW/MI era along with the ninja, kensai and naganata cav units, possibly slightly faster cav and possibly archers with additional ammo if players wanted an era that offered somewhat more dynamic gameplay. The Japanese teppo as currently configured is half as strong as the musket in WE/MI v1.02, and very vulnerable to cav charge. It can even be successfully charged by a yari samurai when in 3 ranks. The yari sam will loose about 15 men crossing no-man's land.
KyodaiSteeleye
11-09-2004, 00:38
sounds very good.
However, i always thought that the musket unit in STW was the one huge unbalanced unit in the game, which made MP very boring, so i'm a bit concerned that you're modelling it on the MI musket unit that was more powerful than in the original STW - if anything a less effective unit of musket than in STW would be better (and more realistic IMO).
The STW mod musket is not as powerful as the MI 1.02 musket, not even close heh. Both the kills per salvo as well as less ammo means it needs a lot of support. Archers will kill them too.
Although I have only played a bit MI 1.02 I definitely thought muskets were too powerful. They will be a more important element in an army compared to old STW but still just a support element. They are nice in helping to stop a bad rush but wont survive long if not supported.
CBR
sounds very good.However, i always thought that the musket unit in STW was the one huge unbalanced unit in the game, which made MP very boring, so i'm a bit concerned that you're modelling it on the MI musket unit that was more powerful than in the original STW - if anything a less effective unit of musket than in STW would be better (and more realistic IMO).
We are not modelling the teppo on the musket in MI. It's modelled on the musket in original STW. The musket in original STW in 3 rank rotating fire gets 1 kill per volley on a yari samurai at max range, and that's what the Portuguese teppo in STWmod gets. The Japanese teppo gets 1.5 kills per volley. A WE/MI v102 musket gets 3 kills per volley on the same target. So, all the guns in STWmod are weaker than WE/MI. Some people call WE/MI STW, but it's not the same. When I say original STW, I'm referring to STW v1.12 which was released in Jun 2000 and patched to v1.12 in Oct 2000. WE/MI came out in Aug 2001, and the v1.02 patch for it was released in Nov 2001.
Tomisama
11-09-2004, 04:50
Wow! Sounds Great ~D
To me STW was the best era, and MTW the best engine, so I couldn’t be happier that the development of this mod is continuing. Personally I find it more interesting than anything that may happen with RTW now or in the future.
I am thinking that this mod could very well attract a class of more serious players. And hoping that those dedicated warriors will form a multiplayer community all it’s own. We’ll see!
Some questions (some more serious than others ~:) ).
1. I think I read somewhere that due to the difference in the way that the two games handled colors, that the units have some sort of speckling problem. Is that true (or am I thinking of some other mod), and if so, what would be needed to fix that?
2. I miss the sound and smoke of the guns we had before. Somehow to me they got lost in MTW. I could always tell when the range units engaged and see where the activity as, even if I was doing something far from that action. I miss that. Any hope of getting it back?
3. I read on the other forum that Elmo was working on a multiplayer campaign for this mod. Was wondering if there was any news on how that was going?
Thanks guys for all that you’re doing. I will certainly do all that I can to help.
Off to post the link to this thread on my Clan forum :charge:
Well Tomi, I think alot of us would agree that STW was prolly the best in the series by far. To answer your questions:
1.There isnt any speckling, at least to my knowledge, however some colours can be shared by both teams(I just played a 1v1 with Yuuki and both our armies were red, however Im sure that wouldnt be a hard to fix, prolly get CB to fix that sometime soon*sounds whip*)
2.As far as sound and smoke from musk, the STWmod has both, you just need to make sure the pyrotechniques setting is turned on in MTW/VI options and whoahla bye bye lame MTW arqs/pav; hello to the cav killen good ol boys!
3.Dunno, about the campaign, but im sure Elmo will let peeps know if he has the time to put something like that together again.
With that said, the STWmod is pretty cool(the stats are as close as your gonna get to the original), I have been enjoying it. Im also in the midst of retexturing all the old maps from Shogun to MTW, so not only will you be able to play the next closest thing to STW but also rumble on those ol' stompin grounds. Thas right, 4v4 UPROAR! Also big props to Barocca for putting the meat of this mod together, well done m8 ~:) .
Plus it gives all of us something to do until a patch is put together for Rome.
Cheers
Kryp ~D
BTW , that is original ShogunTW stats(1.12), NOT MI stats(1.02). The plan is too release that in another mod.
Tomisama
11-09-2004, 13:50
Ok, step by step from the beginning.
I have STW_Mod_BETA5_20nov (71.936KB file) downloaded from:
http://www.3ddownloads.com/strategy-gaming/totalwar/MTW/Stats/STW_Mod_BETA5_20nov.zip
Is this version the latest to date?
I am to add this to MTW patched to v1.1, with VI added and patched to v2.01, right?
As there is no readme, are there any special instructions for installation, or just extract to:
C:\Program Files\Total War\Medieval - Total War?
Thanks in advance ~;)
That does not include the changed files we have made but yes that is the latest of Barocca's STW mod. We have only updated the deadpage coords file as well as unit and projectile file.
Just unzip the file into a temporary folder first. Open your MTW folder (VI 2.01) and then copy the the contents of the STW mod folder into the MTW folder. You can see it contains many of the same folders as in the MTW folder. If it asks to overwrite folders your doing it right ~:)
CBR
Jochi Khan
11-09-2004, 15:59
Looks like we are getting something positive out of this mod at last.
So, are we going to have a mod that will allow us to play...
stw/vi..mtw/vi..community mod.. all in one bundle?
Would be nice :duel:
I believe that this is something the community would support.
Jochi
Some questions (some more serious than others ~:) ).
1. I think I read somewhere that due to the difference in the way that the two games handled colors, that the units have some sort of speckling problem. Is that true (or am I thinking of some other mod), and if so, what would be needed to fix that?
2. I miss the sound and smoke of the guns we had before. Somehow to me they got lost in MTW. I could always tell when the range units engaged and see where the activity as, even if I was doing something far from that action. I miss that. Any hope of getting it back?
3. I read on the other forum that Elmo was working on a multiplayer campaign for this mod. Was wondering if there was any news on how that was going?
1. Barocca did a previous graphic mod for we/mi that had some speckling on the yari samurai sashimono, but that's fixed in the STWmod. The only speckling I've seen in STWmod is on the white head veil that the teppo wear under their jingasa helmet, but it's barely noticable. A very nice touch that barocca included was the waving in the breeze effect on the samurai archer sashimono. The purpose of the sashimono provide the ability to distinguish at a glance allied armies from rival contingents, and it servers that purpose extremely well in the game. Samurai Heraldry (http://www.ospreysamurai.com/samurai_heraldry.html)
2. The sound, smoke and flash from guns in STWmod is very well done, but the smoke doesn't hang in the air and drift away in the direction of the wind as it did in original STW. Up close the guns crack when they fire and boom when they are far away. You can see the smoke from a distance, but it fades quickly. I'm not sure if that can be changed.
3. Elmark is proceeding to make the map of Japan on a website. His campaign only requires one player per clan, but players could team up with trusted friends and play one clan. He is going to allow players to use STWmod to fight the battles if all the players in the battle agree. Otherwise, the battles will be resolved by AI vs AI on his computer.
Jochi,
Right now we contemplate an STW era and a Community mod era in one package. To play MTW/VI you will have to swap out the projectiles.txt file and restart the game. It would be possible to include two STW eras: one with original STW v1.12 units, and one with WE/MI units and perhaps slightly more dynamic gameplay. I'm not sure about that though because it might be confusing, and the two eras would be competing for players.
1dread1lahll
11-10-2004, 04:57
I've gotten it, it has a nice feel to it, its familiar.....rather than trying to make it as much like STW as you can, take the best MTW has in the way of game improvements and add them to what we know will work from STW....unit size for infantry should be bigger ect (unit size and stats are not the source of imbalance, but rather the cost of the unit in relation to its stats), also as RTW multi is a flop I wont be playing it, hopefully people will want to do STW mod in multi?
Aregato Mizus
I'll d/l this mod soon and give it a try (very busy with life ATM or it would already be loaded).
:bow:
ichi
i'm delighted development of this mod is continueing. good work. :charge:
Tomi,
There is quite a lot of speckling on the warrior monk. If you use -ian and zoom the camera in, it's very apparent. From a distance, it's not noticable. Also, if you watch the archer animation closely, I think it's out of sync with when the arrows are loosed. After we get the STWmod stat released, I'll look into correcting these graphic issues, and send the corrections to barocca if I'm sucessful. Maybe we can get the STW music and battle sounds into STWmod.
Lahll,
The unit sizes in STWmod are 60 men except for three special units: hatamoto, ninja and kensai. The combat stats of the units are either exactly the same as original STW or very close to it. This seems to be working out ok, and a 2v2 on Buzen the other night played very much like battles I had there in original STW. The same attacking strategy that worked in the original STW worked in STWmod, and Buzen is not that easy to attack. Maybe the spear units could be slightly larger since cavalry seems slightly more effective in STWmod than it was in original STW. The cost structure is 2x original STW with some adjustment downward on ranged units because you cannot sell off valor in STWmod as was commonly done with honor on ranged units in original STW. The average cost of all the units, not including the three specilized units, is 690 florins. We find playing at 11,000 florins is working well, 11,000/16 = 687.
I think we are getting close to releasing this STWmod stat which will just overlay the stat in STWmod beta 5. Based on more widespread player feedback we can make further adjustments on it if necessary. This stat is designed to recapture original STW gameplay as much as possible. There is another STWmod stat which utilizes varying unit sizes and more special unit types which could be offered as a separate era. I had thought about making two eras representing STW and WE/MI, but offering two eras that are quite similar doesn't seem like a good idea. So, it will be one STW era, and anyone wanting to play an original STW type game can just not use the WE/MI unit types.
ArmaEtLorica_Mongoclint
11-13-2004, 20:52
This mod sounds good. Is it finished and if so, how can I get it? I'm going through multiplayer withdrawl thanks to this crap Rome Multiplayer. I would certainly enjoy giving another multiplayer a try. I never played STW online but I loved the campaign.
1dread1lahll
11-14-2004, 01:16
yukki,... hummm why not the best of stw and mtw, instead of stw remade (which we could all just reinstall and play still), I also posted somewhere that guns were pitiful (1 to 4 killls that archers got) dont work in rain and have no combat skills...while i think they were too powerful in old stw, they would be a useless unit in multi. A good r/p/s would have them better than archers (but you better bring archers also in case it rains). Also am I correct the range of them is greatly reduced? makes it easier for rushes? Agree? Also cav archers speed to too fast, the current run speed means they dont need to be protected (they can escape yari cav easy), so who would take yari cav? Just take cav archers.
A lot of vets say STW v1.12 had the best and most balanced gameplay of all the official Total War game stats, and I think that's true. There is no online server for STW that's up 24/7, and not everyone who owns STW v1.12 can run it on their new computers. Barocca made this nice graphic STWmod for MTW, and all that's needed is the STW stat to bring back that gameplay. There seems to be an endless go around on what constitutes the best gameplay, and some excellent mods for MTW never got used much. So, this isn't an attempt to make something that's better than the original gameplay. If it stays close to the original, I think more people are likely to use it. The army purchase in STWmod is quite different than STW v1.12 because you buy units at valor 0, the valor upgrade is a lot more expensive and there is a 20% tax on purchasing more than 4 of a unit type.
MTW does bring some benefits. There are no battlefield upgrades in MTW, so no super units near the end of the battle. Valor upgrades are expensive, so cheap units can't become more powerful than elite units for less cost. Routing away from the threat which is a feature that many players asked for in STW, although, some players don't like this feature. Another requested feature, the possibility to pull cav units out of melee, although this is hard to do with 60 man cav units. Guns which for some reason don't have the extreme back killing they had in STW. No red zoning. No Benny Hill routing of ranged units if they still have ammo. Better method for calculating the outnumbered morale penalty. Dropped player's units withdraw after finishing their last orders. Money cheat check. No deployment cheat. Can take the same clan more than once. Can't accidentally attack your ally. Replays with full unit info on mouse over.
Varying unit sizes doesn't necessarily provide a benefit to gameplay. What's important is that the unit performs well when used properly and doesn't perform well when used improperly, and that proper use is readily understandable after a few battles. A test in original STW v1.12 custom battle shows H2 no-dachi (300 koku) beating H2 yari samurai (200 koku) in 45 seconds killing 51 YS and loosing 27 ND. In STWmod, the same tests shows V0 no-dachi (600 florins) beating V0 yari samurai (400 florins) in 45 seconds killing 49 YS and loosing 30 ND. If the yari samurai were given more than 60 men, it would alter the ND vs YS relationship. There would be a ripple effect through the stat if changes were made to the no-dachi to compensate, and the gameplay and balance would move away from STW v1.12.
It's true that guns don't fire in rain, and there is enough rain periodically in MTW to stop them from firing. We could make them fire in the rain, but that was a consideration in original STW and muskets still got used. The rain in MTW doesn't last for the entire battle the way it could in STW, so it's not as much of a risk to buy them in STWmod. If most players want them firing in the rain, we'll change them so they will, but I'd like to wait until after players try the stat for a while. The the guns in STWmod are doing well enough to justify their cost, and the Japanese teppo can hold it's own vs archers and is cheaper. The guns in STWmod are not exactly like the guns in STW v1.12. The Portuguese teppo is exactly like the muysket of STW v1.12, but the Japanese teppo is 50% better than the STW v1.12 musket. There is no unit in STWmod equivalent to the arqubusier of STW v1.12. The arq was rarely used in STW multiplayer.
Right now there are two speed classes of cavalry: heavy cav (HC and NC) at 20 run / 22 charge and light cav (YC and CA) at 24 run / 26 charge. It's true that in original STW v1.12 CA was in the slower speed class, but it was most often used with honor sold off to cheapen it's price. It would be faithful to original STW to drop the speed of CA to the slower class so that it can't escape from YC. I'm inclined to do that, but I thought there were complaints that CA should not be as slow as HC because they were light cav. We could drop the price of CA to reflect the honor sell off and drop the speed.
I'll post the latest STWmod stat soon so players who are interested can try it with their STWmod beta 5 download. We just have to run some battle tests with the special units: hatamoto, ninja and kensai which are untested at the moment.
I was under the impression that the Mongol units have not been included because the Mod was never finished?? As far as I am aware they still have yet to be completed so I would question the worth of adding 'MI', afterall it only introduced Japanese fantasy units besides.
That's true there are no Mongol Era units in STWmod. The new Sengoku Period units introduced in WE/MI v1.0 were not well balanced. We have tried to make the naginata cav fit in with the STW v1.12 cav units so that it serves a useful purpose without unbalancing the game. The ninja and kensai are there along with a new hatamoto unit, but as it stands they are all expensive. Without the battlefield upgrades, small units don't gain the boost they would have gotten in WE/MI, and are thus less effective. Even if we drop the price a bit, it's going to be difficult to use these units in such a way that makes them cost effective. I think their use will remain highly specialized. Players could also make a rule not to use the WE/MI units if they only want original STW units in the game.
Thanks for this, really looking forward to play - However I have the italian version of VI on an english version of MTW - is this a problem??
BTW, I think the Naginata Cavalry was the missing piece in STW cavalry, which use was quite limited. However, NC were overpowering: both YC and HC beat them but in real terms against infantry and guns the NC was the natural choice. There wasn't a real difference between NC killing a no-dachi and a HC killing one, in fact probably the NC would kill it faster although the HC would lose a few men less.
How did you balance it out?
Upgrades were too cheap in STW/MI and AFAIK 8k-10k was the standard in MI and that allowed lots of upgrades to be bought.
In this mod lesser units can no longer be upgraded to make them better compared to more expensive units. And you dont have enough money to just buy the most expensive units. NC are cheaper than HC but not as good.
CBR
spacecadet
11-15-2004, 18:45
Yuuki / CBR,
Is there a latest build thats available for testing (where is this "STWmod beta 5")? I know a few other peeps (Wolves ~D :charge: )that wanna give this a go.
Space
ps ah just saw that link above.
Thanks for this, really looking forward to play - However I have the italian version of VI on an english version of MTW - is this a problem??
BTW, I think the Naginata Cavalry was the missing piece in STW cavalry, which use was quite limited. However, NC were overpowering: both YC and HC beat them but in real terms against infantry and guns the NC was the natural choice. There wasn't a real difference between NC killing a no-dachi and a HC killing one, in fact probably the NC would kill it faster although the HC would lose a few men less.
How did you balance it out?
I don't think barocca's STWmod writes over any language files.
HC (1200 florins, 2/6 att/def) beat WM (1100, 5/2) in STWmod. YC (1000, 2/3 + 4/0 anti-cav = 6/3) beat HC. NC (900, 4/2) loose to HC, YC, WM and YS (400, 0/2 + 4/4 anti-cav = 4/6). ND (600, 5/-2) will loose to HC, NC and YC. NI (800, 0/6) will loose to HC and NC, but will beat YC. So, the YC fits inbetween the ND and NI while the NC fits inbetween the NI and WM. We can use the cav charge to fine tune things. As it stands right now, the NC may be doing a bit too good vs the WM. We could take some off the NC charge to place it more equally between the NI and WM. Alternatively, we could increase the NC cost to 1000. That would leave room to increase the cost of NI to 900 as it might be too good at 800 considering that the WM is 1100 rather than 1000. I was also thinking of moving the NC from 4/2 to 3/3 since it has more armor than a YC so you would think that armor would help its defensive capability. However, it's a faster infantry killer at 4/2 so that distinguishes it more from the HC. It would still be a faster killer at 3/3, but only 20% faster than HC.
Into all of this we have to place the CA (900, 1/2). Right now it's set at 2/1, equal in speed to YC and has 1 more charge than it had in STW v1.12. The charge is still pretty weak even with that extra point. I think it does have to go back to 1/2 (att/def), but equal speed to YC is interesting because it makes CA more of a threat to YC which has no counter other than YA and YS. It's also lightly armored, so I don't know why it would be as slow as HC, but that's how it was in STW v1.12. There is a speed inbetween HC and YC where CA could be placed which is another possibility. HC and NC are 20/22 (run/charge) speed, and YC is 24/26. The only difference here from STW v1.12 is that charge is +2 run. I never understood why cav run speed and charge speed were the same in STW v1.12. Placing the CA at 22/24 (run/charge) would make it about 10% slower than a YC, and give YC a chance of catching CA if they gave chase. For comparison, chiv knights are 20/22 and alan merc 24/26 in MTW.
Spacecadet,
Don't base your final opinion on STWmod on the stat that comes with the beta 5. The no-dachi run speed is too high, the nag cav is rather weak and cav charge values are much higher and cav melee stats reduced from what they were in STW v1.12. The guns are not right either.
Thanks for the replies Yuuki, very helpful, some questions:
1. From what I gathered, the japanese teppo in STWmod will be 50% more powerful than the original musket in STW1.12, yet still very much inferior to the musket in MI 1.02. Isn't that more or less the power of the musket in MI 1.03? I wish to see them in action.
2. Archers. In STW1.12, archers were weaker than in MI 1.02, at least in practice. One of the good things in MI 1.02 was that archers could really be used effectively together with guns, and they complimented each other. Archers had a better range,higher rate of fire and could do massive damage to low-armour units (like WM and ND). Guns were morale shooters and although having a slower rate of fire did massive damage to practically any unit. Cavalry-Archers as shooters were also very powerful in MI 1.02, which increased their value. CA-heavy armies were a rarity in STW1.12 but became almost a standard in MI 1.02. They were immensely useful.How are archers implimented in STWmod?
3. I'm worried about the No-Dachi. In STW 1.12, there was place for the ND in most armies along with WM because there was no NC, HC was less useful than in MI and YC didn't beat them and/or wasn't as good "allround" as ND. In STWmod, you're saying that HC, NC and YC will all beat no-dachi. Where is the place for the no-dachi then? Warrior Monks are a much better choice as shock-infantry and in STW1.12 high-valoured ND still weren't as strong as WM - unlike in MI 1.02 where everyone took high-honoured no-dachi instead of WM.
If I want to beat HC, I take YC or YS.
If I want to beat WM, I take HC.
If I want to beat NI, I take WM.
If I want to beat NC, I take HC, YC, WM and YS.
The NI is at least a tank-unit with high defense, the no-dachi has low armour and low defense. Where is its place?
4. In MI 1.02, at least from my tests, HC still beat YC and lost only to YS while still being the most expensive unit. Since WM were poor in 1.02, the HC needed this power to still be useful. In STWmod, the YC beats HC. This is a good thing as long as HC is still useful, so make sure that only the HC can beat WM, and that NC doesn't offer a better solution most times. The NC is an offensive cav-type, which should beat most infantry types excluding spears and warrior monks. In any case, NC should have higher morale and higher attack, so it's still extremely useful in most cases. STW depended MUCH, MUCH more on shock than MTW. I wish to see if in practice NC is still the better option by a large margin...or not.
Thx
Tera
Dionysus9
11-16-2004, 06:16
There is a speed inbetween HC and YC where CA could be placed which is another possibility.
I havent had much chance to tinker with the STWmod yet, but I think that may be the solution. Lahll has a good point that if cav archers are too fast, they can not be countered. I dont think YA and YS are a counter to them, because they can get right up close to YA and shoot them to death--at least till they run out of ammo.
I am somewhat torn between having cav archers that can be caught and cav archers that cant. On one hand, from a realism perspective, the whole idea of cav archers is to NOT get caught. Thus, when a general is training cav archers he will want to arm them very lightly and give them fast horses; not necessarily strong or brave horses, but fast ones.
Then again, this same general knows that at times he will have to face cav archers, so he will want to have some very fast light cav that can catch them. And he will also want some very fast cav for other uses on the battlefield (breaking up ranged units that stray too far from their spears, etc.)
The question is, as a Sengoku general-- would you give your fastest horses to the cav archers, or to the light cavalry (YC)?
I think the answer is fairly clear--First, I think you will not "waste" your fastest horses on a unit that is likely to stand around and get shot at for at least part of the battle. Cav archers may have to stand and trade shots with other cav archers, or foot archers, and I wouldn't want to risk my fastest cav in that role.
The fastest cav deserves to die at full speed, galloping headlong to doom or glory-- meeting its fate either at the impact of a charge or driving forward into a hail of bullets. High quality cavalry that dies standing around like a pin cushion or running away (skirmishing) is wasted.
So, I think, if I had a pool of available mounts and I was in charge of deciding which horses my units would receive as mounts, I would give fast low quality (low strength, skittish, etc., but fast) cavalry to my cav archers, I would give the very fastest cav, medium in quality, to my light cavalrymen, and I would give my slowest, strongest, bravest mounts to the heavy cavalry corps.
That maximizes the battlefield value that you are getting out of each steed and ensures that each unit has what it needs to do its job. The cav archers can easily outrun the heavy cav, but they need protection from light cav.
I think it would make for a fine balance.
Dion,
I did make that change to cav archers. So it's now HC and NC at 20 run, CA at 22 and YC at 24. NC has the highest morale (8), HC is next(6), YC is next (4) and CA is lowest (2). The CA has 0.4 accuracy and the SA 0.6 just as they did in STW v1.12. There is a slight possibility that all the cav should be 2 points less in morale. I'm going to wait for feedback from players on that.
So, the YC can catch the CA, but it's not going to do so as quickly as it could in STW v1.12. CA will be an annoyance to NC since it's faster than NC. The cav prices are now HC (1200), NC (900), YC (900) and CA (800). We are trying to keep costs in multiples of 100 so that's why YC isn't 950 and CA 850. The monk is moved back to 1000 (2x the original 500).
Tera,
I always thought of the no-dachi as the flanking inf unit. It was often given an honor upgrade in STW v1.12 and used in a more frontal fashion. We made it a little less expensive in STWmod. At 500 you can give it a valor upgrade which will make it a 5 combat point unit for 850. The monk is a 7 combat point unit costing 1000. I don't think this makes STWmod a NC/WM/ND rush game. Without an upgrade it's only got a net 3 combat points compared to the 2 combat points of the YS for 400. If it's a problem we'll put the ND back to 600, but right now it doesn't look like it will get used if it costs 600.
The Japanese teppo in STWmod is weaker than the musket in MI v1.03. We're talking no more than 1.5 kills per 20 gun volley on YS at max range. The reload is the same as muskets in STW v1.12, i.e. 21 seconds (7 seconds for 3 rank revolving fire). The Portuguese teppo comes in at 9 kills for 10 volleys on YS, and that is exactly the same as muskets in STW v1.12. Neither gun type fires in the rain. Right now guns have ammo = 20. That's 7 minutes of firing to use it all. Guns had ammo = 40 in STW v1.12. I don't know if players want that much ammo. Archers have 36 arrows. In MTW, dead men take their ammo with them. In STW v1.12, ammo was 28, but it was redistributed from the dead to the men still alive in the unit. So in a shoot out where you are taking losses, the 36 arrows in STWmod could easliy be less total arrows fired than in STW v1.12. This is going to affect guns in the same way, and maybe the 20 ammo is a little light. However, it does give another tactical consideration if there is the possibility of running out of ammo during the battle.
Archers and teppo have the same range in STWmod. Archers and muskets had the same range in STW v1.12 as far as I can tell. We never actually saw the projectile stat for STW v1.12, but we did for WE/MI and they were the same range (5000 = 2.5 tiles = 100 meters). Arquebusiers did have less range (4000), but they are not modelled in STWmod.
If NC is too strong at 900 we may have to raise the price to 1000 or possibly drop the charge to 6. Right now NC have the biggest impact with 8 + 4 = 12 charge. That's better than HC with 6 + 2 = 8 and YC with 8 + 2 = 10. YC vs HC, NC or CA will have 8 + 2 + 4 = 14 charge.
The STWmod is set for 10k. If someone takes a rush army of 4 each NC/WM/ND that will cost 9600 leaving 400 to spare. A counter army to that could be 4 each YS/HC/SA for 8400 leaving 1600 which could buy 2 CA or 2 NI or 4 guns or 3 guns and 1 WM or 2 guns and 2 ND etc.
Thanks for the replies Yuuki.
RE: the ND. What about the difference in speed, armour and charge between the ND and the WM? I was worried about the No-Dachi being left out of most armies since people might be better off having a mixed cavalry army together with WM, YS and guns/archers as mainstay. The no-dachi will no longer be a replacement for the WM, its use will be more limited to a flanking role. This is a a good thing, thanks for pointing out your intentions. However, I wish to know if the no-dachi has enough qualities to actually be used effectively: any unit especially WM and cavalry can be used for flanking effectively anyway. If I recall correctly, in one of the patches you've constructed, the armour of the WM was reduced. That's why I asked that question about S, A and C earlier on. With playtesting this issue will become clearer. Naginata were very useful in STW 1.12, but their use was limited and few people actually took them. I don't want any unit, including ND, to suffer the same fate, although not every unit can be as versatile as WM or HC.
Thx
STWmod isn't based on MI gameplay. The units all have their STW v1.12 stats with a few exceptions:
1) Cavalry charge speeds are +2 their run speed. In STW v1.12, charge speed was equal to the run speed. Not a big deal if players want charge speed = run speed, but seems more appropriate to me for it to be higher. MTW/VI cav all have higher charge than run speed.
2) HC has 6 charge. In STW v1.12 it had 5 charge. I think it needs the +1 charge to help it vs WM.
3) CA run speed is 22. In STW v1.12, it was 20.
4) Guns ammo is 20. In STW v1.12, it was 40. If 20 ammo is found to be too low we can increase it. I haven't run out of ammo in any of the test battles.
5) Archer ammo is 36. In STW v1.12, it was 28.
6) HC, YC, CA, YA and NI have +2 morale more than they had in STW v1.12. Units were purchased at honor 2 in STW v1.12 which gave them +4 morale. We buy units at valor 0 in STWmod, but MTW/VI has a hidden +2 morale. So this brings the units up to the morale level they were in STW v1.12. The NC, WM and ND are already morale 8 units and don't seem to need more. The YS may also have to receive the +2 morale boost.
7) Japanese teppo are 50% more accurate than the muskets of STW v1.12. I was a little but concerned about this unit, but it doesn't seem overpowered in the test battles. In an online test battle of 8 YS attacking 8 Japanese teppo, the YS won.
WM and ND have the same speed characteristics walk/run/charge of 7/12/12. The charge/attack/defend/armor/morale are:
WM = 4/5/2/1/8 cost = 1000
ND = 8/5/-2/2/8 cost = 500
In a battle where CBR took 4 WM and 4 ND he got kills/losses:
WM = 53/4, 68/19, 57/32, 51/50 Average = 57/26
ND = 26/24, 14/16, 0/9, 29/46 Average = 17/15
The difference in melee combat points is 7 - 3 = 4. That is 2x better chance to kill for the WM and the unit costs are in a ratio of 2 to 1, but in this battle the ND didn't achive that ratio in kills. It's only one battle, but in the long run I think the ND will do half as well as the WM.
Krasturak
11-17-2004, 11:50
4v4 UPROAR!
Gah! Krypta! Gah!
Krasturak
11-17-2004, 12:15
The NI is at least a tank-unit with high defense, the no-dachi has low armour and low defense. Where is its place?
Gah!
It's place is ... cutting heads off!
Gah!
Krasturak
11-17-2004, 12:25
The Japanese teppo in STWmod is weaker than the musket in MI v1.03. We're talking no more than 1.5 kills per 20 gun volley on YS at max range. The reload is the same as muskets in STW v1.12, i.e. 21 seconds (7 seconds for 3 rank revolving fire). The Portuguese teppo comes in at 9 kills for 10 volleys on YS, and that is exactly the same as muskets in STW v1.12. Neither gun type fires in the rain. Right now guns have ammo = 20. That's 7 minutes of firing to use it all. Guns had ammo = 40 in STW v1.12. I don't know if players want that much ammo. Archers have 36 arrows. In MTW, dead men take their ammo with them. In STW v1.12, ammo was 28, but it was redistributed from the dead to the men still alive in the unit. So in a shoot out where you are taking losses, the 36 arrows in STWmod could easliy be less total arrows fired than in STW v1.12. This is going to affect guns in the same way, and maybe the 20 ammo is a little light. However, it does give another tactical consideration if there is the possibility of running out of ammo during the battle.
and
4) Guns ammo is 20. In STW v1.12, it was 40. If 20 ammo is found to be too low we can increase it. I haven't run out of ammo in any of the test battles.
5) Archer ammo is 36. In STW v1.12, it was 28.
I thought the guns should have more ammunition than the archers.
The slower rate of fire for the guns, and the higher kill rate for the archers (at least against the poorly-armoured), make the archers superior in the short run -- and they should be.
But if you give the guns less ammunition than the archers, I think it's cutting them down too far. I'm not sure why you want to change this value.
It's much easier to carry 36 paper cartridges than to carry 36 arrows.
I always liked using guns, mostly for the morale effect on opposing players, rather than on the troops, where the archers are more effective at killing.
But anyhow, that's just my $0.02.
-----------
Let me also say I've always respected your work, Yuuki, and I'm most pleased to see you involved in this project. You have my trust.
Thanks again for the replies, I guess we'll see how it turns out on the battlefield in the long-run but it seems good statistically.
Krast! :) Gun battles in STW/MI normally resolved themselves before ammo was out due to the destructive power of both muskets and archers. In STWmod, the ammo was reduced considerably and now dead soldiers take the ammo with them. Ammo will be an issue as it will go very low in the engagement phase of the battle.
Whereas in STW1.12 your guns were active until the very end of the battle and you never assumed otherwise...now you have to take into account tactical considerations when using your precious musket unit. We shall see when we play it.
I look forward to playing this, let me know when people are playing .. times and dates etc .. if i am welcome of course ;)
One element that i feel has been lost from STW->MTW is the skirmising between cav and missiles. This was a massive part of the battle im STW/MI. When playing STW/MI you were willing to take loses to your cav in order to try and rout the enemy missiles. This was because once you had an advantage in the missile exchange over the enemy, you knew they were taking more loses than you and while this was happening the odds of you winning the final melee were increasing by each extra kill. Basically the cav loses were outweighed by the missile advantage.
However, in MTW/VI i felt that the loses were not worthwhile due to the smaller advantage that having superior ranged bought you. I believe that if missiles, guns in particular, are too weak then again we will loose this skirmising before melee which was present in first release. This is unless you used to find the bit in MTW interesting where we all line up and shoot for half an hour? Basically the loses are not outweighed by the missile advantage, hence the prolonged static stand offs which are extremely common in MTW/VI.
This is of course just my opinion i am not sure if others saw this change in tactic from STW-> MTW
Of course i understand that in MTW/VI the missiles were a lot less vulnerable to cav (agreed?) and that will not be the case here. I just wanted to point out that some players may find that stronger guns also bring a different tactical element to the game. It is a fine balance between making guns strong enough to make them worth sacrificing a little cav for, but not making them too strong, so that they alone decide the outcome of the battle. Good Luck!
Furthermore, poor archers also contributed to this situation found in MTW/VI, how do archers fair against guns in this mod compared to other releases?
In respect to Tera's comments about the ND ..
Tera and I tested the ND extensively in MI 1.02 and we both used it in our comp armies as a result, basically ND's were better value for koku than WM's. Just as WM were better value for koku, by a greater margin, than ND's in 1.12 ("monk rusher" comes to mind). This is a difficult job and perhaps the lower armour of the warrior monk may prove to be the balancing act between the two units. I am interested to know how this armour difference relates to kills per volley by missiles.
In summary this looks to be a great project and i really do look forward to playing it.
Baz,
The effect of armor on archers is linear in the 1 to 8. I actually have some measurements for a1, a2 and a3. For 60 man archer volleys as the attacker, I got
3.3 kills per volley on armor 1 (WM)
1.8 kills per volley on armor 2 (ND)
1.3 kills per volley on armor 3 (YS)
that would extrapolate out to
0.9 kills per volley on armor 4
0.7 kills per volley on armor 5 (NI)
Kills on cav would be higher because they are a larger target.
In a shootout with the archer in double line vs the gun in 3 ranks, on flat ground, fine day, just inside max range and the gun going into loose after a few volleys, at the point the archer runs out of ammo,
SA gets about 30 kills and suffers 15 losses vs Portuguese teppo
SA gets about 20 kills and suffers 20 losses vs Japanese teppo
The archer uses all of it's ammo in 1 minute 24 seconds. The gun will still have 60% (12 rounds) of ammo left. Using an SA costing 500 in a shootout with teppos costing 200 and 300 is not really a cost effective way to use an archer, but you might do it to weaken guns a bit before a frontal assault. If you can get an archer shooting a monk or a cav unit, it can do some very cost effective damage. For instance, you can earn back the SA's cost of 500 with 10 volleys on a warrior monk leaving the SA with 16 arrows still to use, and that only takes 40 seconds of shooting.
CBR and I measured a 20% increase in effectiveness of archers if they are the defender in a battle. Krypta and I went back and measured them in STW v1.12, and measured the same difference. So, that difference has been there all along in the series. The guns show no difference between attacking and defending.
The cav skirmishing vs missles is back in the gameplay. Cav archers have less accuracy just as they did in STW v1.12 so frontal skirmishing with archers or guns is costly, but if you can get around on the side or get a height advantage they can be effective. CA is armor 3 and SA is armor 1, so there is a chance to do some damage there.
The 2v2 and 1v1 test battles have all lasted about 15 minutes. Gun ammo hasn't run out in these games.
Where can you download the latest version of this mod?
Just a side note, I love the balance of MI 1.02 ~D imho muskets were not too powerful at all, it was perfect. :yes: Anyway, I have never played the original STW 1.12 stats so looking forward for some happy head hunting :bow:
Dionysus9
11-22-2004, 04:23
Dion,
I did make that change to cav archers. So it's now HC and NC at 20 run, CA at 22 and YC at 24. NC has the highest morale (8), HC is next(6), YC is next (4) and CA is lowest (2). The CA has 0.4 accuracy and the SA 0.6 just as they did in STW v1.12. There is a slight possibility that all the cav should be 2 points less in morale. I'm going to wait for feedback from players on that.
So, the YC can catch the CA, but it's not going to do so as quickly as it could in STW v1.12. CA will be an annoyance to NC since it's faster than NC. The cav prices are now HC (1200), NC (900), YC (900) and CA (800). We are trying to keep costs in multiples of 100 so that's why YC isn't 950 and CA 850. The monk is moved back to 1000 (2x the original 500).
That sounds like a nice, rich balance and I'm looking forward to doing some testing.
IrishMike
11-22-2004, 04:43
I would just like to say that if your looking for interest, you have mine. Sadly I missed out on shogun, so I can't ask any technical qestions and I can provide no help, but I am incridible interested in this mod, and I eagerly await your revisions to original mod to be released.
Cheers from me, and keep up the work! ~:cheers:
Thanks for the interest.
We now have a stat that plays well, but I have an idea that would bring army purchase closer to the way it worked in original STW v1.12. Right now in STWmod you purchase units in MP and custom at valor 0, and they are usable at valor 0. To effect that is was necessary to add +2 morale to the low and middle morale units. So, you are able to play without upgrades. There is no way to go lower in morale since you are already at valor 0.
In STW v1.12, units were purchased at honor 2 which is the equivalent of valor 1 in MTW/VI due to the hidden +2 morale of MTW/VI. The honor 2 gave units +4 morale, and the valor 1 gives +2 morale in addition to the hidden +2 morale for a total of +4 morale. The extra +1 att and +1 def that honor 2 was giving in STW over valor 1 in MTW/VI will cancel out since all units get it. Honor only cost 40% in STW while valor costs 70% in MTW. A single valor upgrade in STWmod will cost about the same as a double honor upgrade in STW, so the idea is to price the units in STWmod MP and custom battle at x/1.7, and take away the morale boost we gave to the low and middle morale units. In this way, units purchased at valor 1 in STWmod would be equivalent to units purchased at honor 2 in STW, and players would be able to sell off 1 valor point on some units to get money for upgrades on other units. You could also play low money games as was done in STW, but can only get -2 morale rather than the -4 you could get in STW.
Some testing is going to be required on this to make sure it doesn't break the game because you will be getting a lot of money selling off 1 valor on some units. For instance, using a WM at valor 0 will save 411, and a double valor upgrade on a YA will only cost 378. The v0 WM will still function well because it has morale 8, and will be 2 combat points (40%) less powerful than a v1 WM. The v3 YA will pick up 4 combat points, 100% more powerful, and 4 morale points over a v1 YA. The v3 YA is not a super unitwith 4 combat points and 2 morale, but you did gain more than you lost by making that trade off with the WM. It's probably ok because it's the about the same as you could do in original STW v1.12. I also want to be sure that a v0 HC at 705 doesn't obsolete a v1 NC at 900.
None of this will affect STWmod's SP campaign since that has it's own set of unit costs.
If anyone has an opinion on this idea, I'll be glad to listen to your comments.
KyodaiSteeleye
11-24-2004, 19:50
Personally, i won't worry too much about trying to replicate STW MP too much - as long as the unit balance at equal valour is about right.
Span.
The goal of this mod is to replicate STW v1.12 gameplay as closely as possible.
ElmarkOFear
11-25-2004, 03:49
Then you must include the lag that most games had to REALLY simulate the gameplay! hehe :) Sounds like you guys are doing a nice job. I will make it an option to play any of my STW MP CAMPAIGN battles using this mod. That way, if everyone is so inclined, and can schedule the match within a day or two, they can play it vs. each other, rather than have the AI vs AI battle on my PC. Good luck!
Tomisama
11-25-2004, 16:27
I have run into a small snag. The faction represented by the black dragon, is missing in the game. I imagine it was left off because we are not going to have Mongols, and that was the Mongol logo. But in order for the competition map I am working on “to work”, we need either 4, 8, or 16 playable clans.
http://www.clanwarscomp.org/samurai/theclans.jpg
I don’t know if we can interest 16 Clans in competing or not, but would like the option open if possible. We have had as many as 28 Clans in winter games before, so it’s not really that hard to imagine.
Any logo will do, just need to be able to have 16 playable game factions.
Thanks ~:)
Hi,
it takes about 2 days of work to make and add a clan,
(there are a lot of graphics to make and test, collating a list of leader, hero and heir names then adding them to the loc, name and prod files)
I dont have 2 spare days at the moment.
I have a new job, long days, plus moving house and an extra special event happening just before christmas (that is impossible to postpone)
I would suggest 12 clans.
sorry,
B.
Tomisama
11-27-2004, 04:17
No problem Barocca-san.
Understand completely, thanks :bow:
Be carefull (and congratulations?) :wink: :tiny:
Will go with less for now, but has to be times two multiples in order to assure every team on the map has an opponent in every round.
Eight will work nicely for a first run anyway. Really there is no limit as to how many Clans can participate through the coarse of the contest. Will have to explain that later, has to do with mercenaries and alliances and stuff ~:)
Although not quite finished yet, thought I’d show the work at the end of the day today.
http://www.clanwarscomp.org/samurai/map.html
One question, are you making the mod so you can still play the orginal 4 era's in VI (Early, High, Late and Viking) so its more like an extension mod, or will it be liek nepolian where you add it play it, then take it off to be able to play the original 4 eras?
L'Impresario
11-27-2004, 15:15
You can still play the other eras, you just need to use a single program that will switch between the projectile stats of the mod and VI..that 'll take you about 3 secs each time:-)
BTW I 've come to hate the empire tourney .gif, it takes ages to load a page that contains it heh ;-)
Cheers alex, yeh thats easy so there is no way of getting both to work at same time, i mean so being able to play normal VI yet have the option of an extra era being Shoggy style, without conflictions between other players online who dont have this mod in the normal era's?
If you see what im saying, hope you do hehe. I would like not have to chnage anything if possible, is there no way or merging the Shoggy projectile stats with the normal VI ones to form 1?
L'Impresario
11-28-2004, 23:33
No there can't be two different projectile stat files at the same type, as far as I know (and it really makes sense heh). As I mentioned above, the mod isn't overwriting any files that allow you to play VI, it's just that you need to switch the files, and this is almost automatic, using a programme of 767 bytes ;)
Nothing to worry about, just after a normal game , before you relog, you have to run this thingie (it takes 3.46 secs to be precise).
There wasn't any way to recreate the guns of STW without changing projectiles.txt, and you can't get the original gameplay without those guns. The cavalry archers are also adjusted to have the accuracy of original STW. The game supports multiple unit_prod files as separate eras, but it only supports a single projectiles file, so that one file has to be swapped in and out. It does requite a restart of the game each time you make the swap. Otherwise MTW/VI isn't affected by this STWmod, except that the missing corpses for some of the units in MTW/VI have been fixed. Right now the MTW/VI corpses do not graphically match the samurai units, and I'll see if I can fix that. At least you see corpses now, and you can tell which army they came from by the color. One other benefit to changing the projectiles.txt is that the discounts on upgrades for ranged units has been removed when playing STWmod.
The final testing of this Samurai Wars stat fell through this week except for a few 1v1 battles. I've done the best I can adjusting the kensai and ninja units. The stat can be played anywhere from 5k to 10k per player, but it's going to play most like STW at about 8500. In other words, playing STWmod at 8500 per player will be most like original STW at 5000 per player. A valor 1 unit in STWmod has the same morale as an honor 2 unit in STW, and you can outfit an army with all valor 1 units in STWmod with 8500 just as you could an honor 2 army in STW with 5000. At 8500, you can sell off this valor1 on some units by using them at valor 0 and use the money to upgrade other units just as was done in STW, but the flexibility here is not so great that units can be transformed into a different kind of unit. For instance, you won't be able to upgrade YS to the extent that it defeats WM thereby eliminating the need for swords.
I tested gun/melee combos to make sure they didn't defeat the counter unit. For instance, naginata cav (450) will defeat a gun/no-dachi combo (150 + 250 = 400). Another example, no-dachi with armor upgrade (250 + 87 = 337) will defeat gun/yari samurai combo (150 + 200 = 350). I haven't checked archer/melee combos, but a gun/melee combo may be the most effective counter.
I'll post Samurai Wars as a beta later tonight so people can try it and give some feedback.
1dread1lahll
12-02-2004, 16:18
fine fine. how about a link to the latest version plz
I am expecting some Converted maps later this week,
then i will have to test them to see if i can get them into the campaign and add them into the Shogun Mod,
(those maps willl be available for MP online regardless)
the Shogun Mod will then undergo a name change to Samurai and be uploaded as Samurai beta 7
Samurai beta 7 will include the Stats from Puzz and Kryst,
some front-end artwork from Tomi, a bunch of new character portraits from Eastside and over 90 models from me (including the Shogun Temples and Castles)
http://www.totalwar.org/barocca/misc/castles-5.jpg
and i changed the skin on Medievals Bridge - the stone version did not fit with my idea of Shogun Era Japan.
http://www.totalwar.org/barocca/misc/bridge1.jpg
beta 8 will be done as soon as i have some more time (currently moving house), beta 8 will see the leaders and heirs, heroes and generals sorted into a more logical order.
cheers,
B.
Orda Khan
12-02-2004, 23:28
But still no Mongols?
.....Orda
Orda,
I don't think barocca has the graphics done for the Mongols. It's a lot of units to make. The cav archers in STW are quite good if that's the type of gameplay you are looking for.
I've posted the Samurai Wars_05b (http://www.mizus.com/hosted/Yuuki/samuraiwars_05b.zip) stat for STWmod, and there is a readme included.
The Mongols
i WANT to add the Mongols,
but i need a few things first,
For MP
i need to decide which medieval units can be used to represent the mongols
for those Mongol units which do not have a Medieval equivalent i need to decide which Medieval units can be killed off (as in use another medieval units graphics to represent them),
and then add the extra Mongols
i need to make all the "control" files for them. (actions, weapons etc)
i need to get Puzz and comapny to make/test the stats for them
For SP
I ALSO need
a tech tree - cannot set the game up to "give" reinforcement units.
to figure out how to make them invade (aka medieval golden horde)
make all the graphics for the tech tree buildings
make a build prod file.
make portraits for the Mongols
define leaders and heirs for them
define generals and heroes
um, am sure there are more, but it is bed time.
i WANT the mongol invasions in Samurai / Shoggy mod, i need time to make it happen
cheers,
B.
Iguanus Commodus
12-03-2004, 11:59
Small question: whatever happend to that hero thing? Is that implemented?
And what clans are available to use?
ShinIguana
i have not "fixed" or added in all the heroes yet,
they are planned for beta 8
B.
Orda Khan
12-03-2004, 19:02
So far the Mongols have been messed up badly, whether as the ruined Mongols of v1.02 or the ruined Golden Horde of MTW.
I was pleased to see your intention to include them in your mod Barocca and please do not think I was having a 'poke' as I can also appreciate your predicament with including them in a SP campaign. We discussed their inclusion and possible units in your old Apothecary thread and I was most hopeful of an accurate representation that included the foot archers that CA left out.
Their inclusion to MP is essential ( IMO ) to add a degree of variety and diversity that, sadly, never materialised in STW/MI. Hopefully they will be given the chance they deserve after being so readily dismissed in both STW/MI and MTW
......Orda
ArmaEtLorica_Mongoclint
12-03-2004, 19:47
I'm a computer moron. Ok, ok, I'm a moron in general and computers are but one of my specialties. Can anyone explain to me how to install the STW mod in detail. I'm uhhh........... having trouble. Thanks in advance.
Mongo
The only way you'll see balanced Mongols in STWmod is if they are only slightly different from the Japanese units. The engine cannot handle the kind if diversity that was attempted in STW/MI. The Mongol heavy cav was a combination of Japanese heavy cav and yari cav. The Mongol cav archers were a combination of Japanese cav archers and naginata cav. With Mongol combo cav units like that, a Japanese player might as well take no cav, set up his infantry in a defensive formation and wait.
Orda Khan
12-03-2004, 21:22
The only way you'll see balanced Mongols in STWmod is if they are only slightly different from the Japanese units.
I did not suggest anything else.
All I said was that their previous incarnations were messed up. Over priced and ineffective ... against their equivalent opposing units.
I discussed units already, with Barocca, a while back.
Mongol archers? ..........Samurai archers / X bows?
Korean spearman.......Yari samurai
Korean guardsman.......Naginata
Thunder bombers.............Nodachi / ( Warrior monk? )
????????????........Yari ashigaru
Mongol HA.............Cav archer / Hattamoto
Mongol HC...........HC / Nag cav / Yari cav
The deficiency is on the Mongol side, which is why we discussed Yuan/Imperial HC and Yuan/Imperial HA. Whether we should also add Teppo units I do not know as I can not say whether there would be 'Mongol Invasion Era' games but this is something I would not expect to see, so I suppose Japanese Teppo, Portugese Teppo and arquebusiers should be included also.
At the end of the day my point was simply that it would be nice to be able to field a decent Mongol army
......Orda
You could go like this:
Mongol archers .........Samurai archers
Korean spearman.......Yari samurai / Yari ashigaru
Korean guardsman......Naginata / Warrior monk
Thunder bombers.......X bows
Mongol HA................Cav archer / Hattamoto
Mongol HC................Yari cav
Yuan/Imperial HC........Nag cav
The X bows could be eliminated if they are considered to be too ahistorical. Korean spearmen positioned between YS and YA. Korean guardsmen positioned between NI and WM. Mongol HA get the foot archer stat rather than the less accurate horse archer stat. Mongol archers could get the longbow stat, but it might be too much of an advantage. Maybe cheap Xbows would work here or just handle it with unit cost. Mongol HC about as powerful and same cost as HC since HC are gone. They will beat warrior monks. Maybe no anti-cav bonus for Mongol HC so that YC is a counterunit. Add a 3rd cav unit for the Mongols. Interchange that Yuan HC with the Mongol HC if they are supposed to be the stronger unit.
I'm a computer moron. Ok, ok, I'm a moron in general and computers are but one of my specialties. Can anyone explain to me how to install the STW mod in detail. I'm uhhh........... having trouble. Thanks in advance.
Mongo
STWmod is a zip file. Unzip it with Winzip to a temporary folder. Use windows file explorer to navigate to the temporary folder, left click on it, and select all the files including the folders that you see in there by holding the cntl key while you click them or use "select all" from the Edit pull down menu. Right click that group of selected files and left click "copy" or "cut" if you prefer from that menu. Navigate to your main MTW/VI folder. That's the one which contains the medieval_tw.exe file. You can find that location from the properties of the shortcut or just use "Find Files or Folders" which you get to with the Start button. Right click the main game folder and select "paste" from the menu. Select "yes to all" when it askes you to overwrite. Use the same procedure for installing the SamuraiWars_05b, and install that after you install STWmod.
Tomisama
12-04-2004, 16:20
And don't forget to run the projectile stat swapper (MS-DOS Batch File named STWmod) selecting B to change to more effective guns ~;)
How are the new maps for this coming?
With the BETA5 there came I believe 106 castle and river map conversions of MTW maps. I am not too fond of either castle or river battles in general, but am looking forward to seeing more of Barocca’s new castles and bridges ~:)
Beyond that, while waiting for STW map conversion pack (which if I am correct is coming), in poking around my map collection, found some that were done previously.
Totomi [retextured]
classic aki
Classic Nagashima
Classic Satsuma
Classic Totomi
(fS)_am_aki
(fS)_am_harima
(fS)_am_Totomi
(fS)_Classic Nagashima
(fS)_Classic Satsuma
(fS)_Classic Totomi
Thinking that most of us have at least the (fS) versions (correct me if I’m wrong), that it’s at least a place to start. That until the actual new pack is finished that we might use the (fS)s for some 4v4 Samurai fun this next Sunday (December 5th)?
Call it “Samurai Sunday” ~D
I will do my best to be on around 2pm CST (2000 hrs GMT I think), and looking for folks who want to give the Samurai revision a go.
Hay, I’ve already lost on Totomi hundreds of times in the old days, a few more wont hurt :tongue3:
P.S. As soon as the new maps are out, we can get the Samurai Clan Wars competition going in earnest ( still a lot to do on it, but the work is continually in progress).
Salute!
Tomi
Tomi,
Some of the maps you list have texture errors on them. So far these STW campaign maps have been done by Krypta and myself: Aki, Awaji, Bingo, Bizen, Bungo, Buzen, Chikugo, Harima, Kozuke, Yamashiro, Yamato. We also have 4thKawa, Totomi and Nagashima. The ones that have models on them have to be redone with Barocca's Japanese model pack. To see the Japanese models, you have to have Barocca's model pack installed. That's a dilemma. I don't want to post up maps that are going to be changed to the Japanese models, but I could post the ones that have no models. I'm thinking of prefixing them with STW so they will be grouped together in the map list.
Tomisama
12-04-2004, 17:34
That would be great Yuuki!
For the 4v4 Samurai competition we would probably be looking for “just terrain” type maps anyway, at least in the first run ~D
(Now I need to really get busy :charge: )
Thanks!
These STW maps are all small maps, and as Orda has pointed out the red zone is 3 tiles wide rather than the 2 tiles it was in STW. It's very difficult to squeeze 8 armies on these maps. I thought Horselands which is a larger map from STW/MI had been redone, but I don't see it. Maps like those would be better for 4v4.
Orda Khan
12-05-2004, 00:28
Nobody was a greater fan of Shogun maps than me. I preferred them for their honesty of design, the far superior ( IMO ) textures and the setting and weather conditions. Neither MTW nor RTW has matched the weather conditions of Shogun, rain there looked just like rain and fine days were not always sunny. Those things are lost with the MTW engine and I would seriously question the worth of retexturing all those classic maps just for MTW to spoil them. As I mentioned before, I retextured Totomi but after playing a 3v3 on it I was in no hurry to host that map again, too much of the map was now inaccessible. In effect, it became another map. I even tried to replicate Totomi when I made O_Realm 010 but failed; maybe I should have made it medium sized instead of large. It does seem to be a lot of work, I'd hate for it to all end in disappointment
.......Orda
Orda,
I've played many STWmod games on Totomi up to 3v3, and I don't think the map is ruined. I've played on 4thKawa, Nagashima, Buzen, Bizen, Akai, Harima, Kozuke and Yamato. The same strategies work on those maps as they did in STW. The edge is confining, and these maps are probably not suitable for 4v4. I remember people complaining about that in STW. Also, the rain in STWmod is adequate to stop guns from shooting, and you get periods of rain in temperate and lush climate in most battles. So, the rain factor does come into play, and better than it did in STW which had periodic rain only if you got that option in the weather selection.
The ground textures are technically better in MTW because of greater color depth. Krypta's 4thKawa map is better looking than the original. One thing you can't do is make the tiered rice paddies. Another problem is that water is impassable so you can't convert a map like Obake's Riverlands, but Horselands would work and I think it was already converted.
The tree density in STWmod is less than in STW. I remember maps in STW where units got stuck in trees. Some think the trees don't reduce the effectiveness of archers enough because they are less dense, but there still is an effective reduction. The trees themselves are larger in diameter.
The aim in doing this mod is to recreate as much as possible the original STW experience, and I think you need the original maps for that. Players using the mod are not limited to those maps, and can use any map available in MTW. I think it is possible to make a larger Totomi, Nagashima or 4thKawa, but they would need playtesting. Something like that would not be worth doing unless STWmod caught on because it would take a month just to complete one map and properly test it.
Tomisama
12-05-2004, 17:44
The Samurai contest can to go 3v3, which some would argue is a more balanced game anyway. Clans can have more than one team in this, so that might ease the pain a bit. In any case, according to my current plan only 16 maps will be able to be used in the first competition .
On my “tentative” list is:
Dewa - Mutsu
Etchu - Etchigo
Shimosa - Hitachi
Naba - Tajima
Buzen - Nagato
Satsuma - Osumi
Tosa - Awa
Totomi - Suruga
These pairs come from their locations on the overall map of the islands. They are the border provinces of the faction territories (or as close as I could get). I have not even looked at them yet individually, and only vaguely remember about 9 of them. I hope they will work out playability wise?
The intention is to have 4 battles per match, 2 on each of the map set, reversing north south starting positions in each case. First Clan to win 3 stays on the map, with the other sent to a mercenary line up, hopefull to re-enter the map for another chance under diffrent conditions.
We will need a Tie Breaker flat map also, the Ironing Board comes to mind, or something like it?
Am looking for Horselands, but haven’t found it yet (may have about 1300, maybe 1500 maps, all stashed in different locations).
But did find some more STW remakes under (hS)
bingo
dewa
higo
kozuke
yamato
Classic Satsuma (different than the (fS)?)
There are probably more. Just mentioning those because they might be useable for some fun today :wideeyed:
Orda Khan
12-05-2004, 20:39
Maybe I should be more precise in my posting.
Shogun textures were better because.....
More suitable grass colours
Trees looked better
The scrub textures, trees but not woods
The paddy fields in all their varying forms
The cliff-face textures
The gloominess that could be found on a regular basis. In MTW it either rains or it's a summers day.
Shogun rain looked like rain, MTW rain is basically unrealistic lines and RTW is even worse. Same applies to snow. Shogun mist was far superior also.
Yes the rain in MTW will affect muskets but I can't recall a MTW battle where it poured with rain all day and when it rained hard it was usually accompanied by a fog like density that heavy rain in Shogun never had. I fought many Shogun battles where it chucked it down and visibility was attrocious, yet you could still strain and see your opponent. Anyway, weather conditions are secondary and not the end of the world. However, I still feel Totomi for one does not offer half of what it used to.
I recall a tremendous battle on Totomi where ShinGaijin was doubled on the right on that high ground at the rear of the map, I turned to flank his attackers. Where we fought that battle is no longer accessible.
Added to all this are the deployment zones which are uneven to say the least.
I can understand trying to recreate the Shogun feel, it just seems like a lot of work that's all
......Orda
Well, I'm still trying to apply the mod to my Italian version of VI, we'll see if it works :/
Orda,
Small maps are 20x20 tiles and medium maps are 26x26 in MTW. It might be possible to pad out a map like Totomi with 3 tiles all around so that the red zone is completly outside the original STW map area.
We don't have much fog in these games, but one STWmod game did rain for the entire battle.
We had some nice MP games yesterday with STWmod + Samurai Wars. The reaction of the players who were trying it for the first time was very favorable. They thank Barocca for the mod, and will buy him a drink and send it to him. One player said if the STWmod cost $50 it would be worth it.
TosaInu made a utility to transfer the music and battlesounds from STW to STWmod. I've run it and it works. You have independent selection of MTW or STW music and MTW or STW battlesounds with a bat file. You can get this utility here:
STW_Mod_Sound. (http://www.totalwar.org/tosa/STW_Mod_Sound.zip)
Install problems for STWmod + Samurai Wars have been a little more troublesome than I expected. Best way to install is probably:
1. unzip STWmod_beta5 to a temp folder using paths so that you get the folder tree.
2. select all the files and folders in that temp folder and copy them to your main game folder
3. unzip SamuraiWars_05b to a temp folder using paths so that you get the folder tree.
4. select all the files and folders in that temp folder and copy them to your main game folder.
5 run STWmod.bat and swap to the STWmod stats with the 'B" option.
6. use STWmod 'A' option to swap back to MTW/VI stats to play a regular game.
7. always exit the game when swapping stats.
Apologies to the players who had their time wasted with abortive STWmod games. It turns out that the Japanese model pack which Krypta and I had installed made us incompatible with everyone else.
Tomi,
Krypta and I will work on converting the maps you list.
AggonyDuck
12-07-2004, 15:57
Well I will see if I could get a game with it this evening... :bow:
Tomisama
12-08-2004, 02:20
Having problems getting the sound stuff to work (I know I did), or not sure about working with all these files?
The following is for those of you like myself with only one active brain cell :dizzy2:
Extract all three files to a temporary folder (to me, always the best idea).
Copy STWSoundcopy to your "Shogun" – Total War – Warlord Edition main folder, and run it. It will create and populate a file called STW in that folder.
Now leave that for the time being.
Copy SoundSetupSTW and SoundSwapperSTW to your "Medieval" – Total War\Sounds file (not the main folder, the Sounds folder in the main folder).
Run SoundSetupSTW. It will create another file called Sounds inside your Medieval – Total War\Sounds folder. Inside that new Sounds file it will create MTW and STW files, and populate the MTW file folder.
Next, go back and get the STW file that was created in your Shogun – Total War – Warlord Edition main folder, and copy it’s contents to the unpopulated Medieval – Total War\Sounds\Sounds\STW folder.
Now that both MTW and STW have sounds in them, you can run SoundSwapperSTW from inside the Medieval – Total War\Sounds folder, and it will copy the Medieval or Shogun sound files to the active files for the game.
Works great, sounds great!
~:cheers:
Thanks Tosa and Yuuki!
Tomisama
12-08-2004, 03:01
A little something in the works ~:)
http://www.clanwarscomp.org/storage/load_stamp.jpg
Maybe?
Krasturak
12-08-2004, 04:55
I hope to find time to try this one day.
Please know I am interested in your work.
Hey Tomi,
I have converted Dewa, Etchu, Hitachi, Mutsu, Nagato, and at the moment just about to start Tajima. Couple of things though:
1)We discovered that barocca's stw map models create a 'desync issue', Yuuk has informed barocca(who is a bit tied up atm in real world stuff) so it doesnt look like he's got the time right now to look into it and figure it out, but im sure he will, hes a smart guy, in a nut shell stw models cannot be used right now on any of the converted maps.
2)With that said, bridge maps become an issue, so we were hoping that you could switch those maps that you have listed which are bridge maps for another stw non-bridge map and we will convert that for you.
Cheers
Tomisama
12-09-2004, 05:29
Hello Krast!
:bow:
Hi Krypta,
Great that you are working on those maps. Thanks ~:)
1. And thanks for the info on the stw maps from the original mod.
2. and 3. Will you please select some proper maps for us?
My criteria for that list were points on a map. Ideally very near the ones picked, but playability and variation between paired sets, and set groups would be important too. Was thinking it would be best to have no rivers or castles. Still have had no chance to look any of these up myself.
Here’s a copy of the overall map I was going by.
http://www.clanwarscomp.org/samurai/map_name_points.jpg
Whatever you consider as the best maps from the general areas marked will be fine. The contest deals with very large territories that border near those points. There just should be some reasonable relevance between the point positions and your picks.
Thanks again!
Yuuki-san,
Have you had any problems with the swapped sounds? At first everything was great, then I started to have a loud buzzing show up during some (not all) custom games. First thought it was a corrupt Rain file, but eliminated that. Then checked all files individually, but found no problems. Might have something to do with compatibility of file lengths? But then again, I may be the only one having the problem ~:confused:
Any help?
Thanks in advance!
Tomi,
I haven't had any problems with the STW sounds except that the voice commands are a little soft. I took the sounds from STW v1.12, and not from STW/MI v1.02. I don't know if there is any difference.
Barocca's model pack works if everyone has the model pack installed. For now, we'll make a STW mappack that doesn't use it. We've just about finished and battletested the maps in your list, and will substitite for the two bridge maps with something close by. We've already substituted Kozuke for Etchigo, and will have a small STW mappack available soon.
The feedback I have right now on Samurai Wars suggests to add +2 morale to all units so that at valor 0 they have the morale units had at honor 2 in STW. Then playing Samurai Wars at 5000 florins would match STW at 5000 koku except you wouldn't have the option to sell back valor. The way it's set up now for 8500 florins, you can use ranged units at valor 0 and melee units at v1 or v2 thereby making the ranged units too cheap relative to the melee units. You can simulate this proposed change to 5000 florins and +2 morale with the Samurai Wars 05b by playing at 8500 with the rule that all units must be at least valor 1. If you are playing at more than 8500 per player just reduce the money by x/1.7 and it will simulate the proposed change.
Sid_Quibley
12-09-2004, 19:29
Any news on an alternative d/l site to 3dd.Perhaps you could post if its hosted elsewhere.
ArmaEtLorica_Mongoclint
12-09-2004, 21:17
Thank you Puzz 3D
Jochi Khan
12-10-2004, 01:03
[QUOTE=Tomi says]Having problems getting the sound stuff to work (I know I did), or not sure about working with all these files?
Copy SoundSetupSTW and SoundSwapperSTW to your "Medieval" – Total War\Sounds file (not the main folder, the Sounds folder in the main folder).
Run SoundSetupSTW. It will create another file called Sounds inside your Medieval – Total War\Sounds folder. Inside that new Sounds file it will create MTW and STW files, and populate the MTW file folder.
*************
Tried to run SoundSetupSTW in MTW\Sounds folder. It would not run or create another file called Sounds.
The STWSoundcopy in STW/WE main folder run and created the folder called STW.
Any reason why it should fail?
Jochi
Any news on an alternative d/l site to 3dd.Perhaps you could post if its hosted elsewhere.
Alternate location: STWmod for MTW/VI (http://212.238.194.39/files/files/MTW/Stats/STW_Mod_BETA5_20nov.zip)
Tried to run SoundSetupSTW in MTW\Sounds folder. It would not run or create another file called Sounds.
The STWSoundcopy in STW/WE main folder run and created the folder called STW. Any reason why it should fail?
No need to move SoundsSetupSTW.bat to the MTW\Sounds folder. The readme doesn't say to do that. Just run SoundsSetupSTW.bat right where it is in the MTW\STWsetup folder and it will make \Sounds\MTW and \Sounds\STW under that. Then copy the STW folder that was created by STWsoundcopy.bat to the MTW\STWsetup\Sounds folder.
Tomisama
12-10-2004, 04:32
Thanks Yuuki, did change to the STW v1.12 sounds, and it appears the problem has gone away. Afterwards checked some (but not all) of the STW sound files against the STW/MI ones, and found a few differences in sizes. Not sure if this is the culprit for sure, may just be coincidental, but the buzz has not come back yet.
My vote too, would be for the overall +2 morale boost. Good to hear that. And good to hear about the map pack.
Jochi, it sounds like you may have a corrupt SoundSetupSTW file. I took all of the newly created files out of the Sounds folder, reintroduced SoundSetupSTW, ran it and it performed perfectly, as it had before. If you haven’t already, I would suggest you download a fresh copy, and try again. Good luck! Let us know what happens.
Yuuki says it runs from stwsetup folder, so apparently no matter where it is, it should work. All I know is what worked for me. In either case, try another download.
Jochi Khan
12-10-2004, 21:41
OK......
I've download a fresh copy of STW Mod Sound twice.
Installed by both methods (Yuuki's and Tomi's) individually. Not at the same time. Made two separate attempts to get it working.
STW folder is populated but not the MTW folder. Each time.
Run SoundSwapper and I get.............
cannot find the specified path........no files copied....... :dizzy2:
There are 4 options...2 stw (music and orders) and 2 mtw (music and orders) in the Swapper.
Jochi
Tomisama
12-11-2004, 04:08
Ok, lets give a full explanation a go ~;)
If you are running the SoundSetupSTW program in the Medieval – Total War\Sounds folder, it will create a new folder called Sounds in that folder, and place a STW folder and MTW folder in it, with empty Orders, Troops, and Frontend folders in "each".
*MD = Make Directory
MD Sounds
MD Sounds\STW
MD Sounds\STW\Orders
MD Sounds\STW\Troops
MD Sounds\STW\Frontend
MD Sounds\MTW
MD Sounds\MTW\Orders
MD Sounds\MTW\Troops
MD Sounds\MTW\Frontend
*Then it copies some of the original MTW files from the program, to the empty Sounds\MTW folder. First all of the Orders\Latin files, then all of the Frontend files.
COPY ..\Sounds\Battle\Orders\Latin\*.* Sounds\MTW\Orders
COPY ..\Sounds\Frontend\*.* Sounds\MTW\Frontend
*Then the original Music folder files directly into the new Sounds folder (Mtw or MTW is the same to the DOS program).
ECHO. This may take a few minutes, have patience please.
COPY ..\Sounds\Music\"Euro Battle 1.wav" Sounds\Mtw
COPY ..\Sounds\Music\"Euro Battle 2.wav" Sounds\Mtw
COPY ..\Sounds\Music\"Euro Battle 3.wav" Sounds\Mtw
COPY ..\Sounds\Music\"Euro Lose 1.wav" Sounds\Mtw
COPY ..\Sounds\Music\"Euro Mobilize 1.wav" Sounds\Mtw
COPY ..\Sounds\Music\"Euro Mobilize 2.wav" Sounds\Mtw
COPY ..\Sounds\Music\"Euro Mobilize 3.wav" Sounds\Mtw
COPY ..\Sounds\Music\"Euro Strat Summer 1.wav" Sounds\Mtw
COPY ..\Sounds\Music\"Euro Strat Summer 2.wav" Sounds\Mtw
COPY ..\Sounds\Music\"Euro Strat Winter 1.wav" Sounds\Mtw
COPY ..\Sounds\Music\"Euro Strat Winter 2.wav" Sounds\Mtw
COPY ..\Sounds\Music\"Euro Tension 1.wav" Sounds\Mtw
COPY ..\Sounds\Music\"Euro Tension 2.wav" Sounds\Mtw
COPY ..\Sounds\Music\"Euro Tension 3.wav" Sounds\Mtw
COPY ..\Sounds\Music\"Euro Win 1.wav" Sounds\Mtw
COPY ..\Sounds\Music\"Frontend.wav" Sounds\Mtw
*And finally the original Battle\Troops\Horn files into the Troops folder.
COPY ..\Sounds\Battle\Troops\"Horn_Euro_Alpine_Advance.wav" Sounds\MTW\Troops
COPY ..\Sounds\Battle\Troops\"Horn_Euro_Alpine_Retreat.wav" Sounds\MTW\Troops
*All of them now reconfigured to fit a format that the SoundSwapperSTW program expects to see.
The “reconfiguration” is the key.
In the Medieval – Total War\Sounds folder you will now have the original game program sound files in their original configuration. And you will have the original game program sound files in the “reconfiguration” order inside the “new” Sounds\MTW folder.
When you copy the STW folder contents (guess you could do it whole, and answer “yes” to the copyover) that you made in the Shogun – Total War main directory, into the Medieval – Total War\Sounds\Sounds\STW folder, you will have a “reconfiguration” of the Shogun sounds.
When you run SoundSwapperSTW and select either the Shogun or Medieval files to be transferred, they are read in their “reconfigured” state, and are sent to overwrite the original game program sound files in their “original” configuration.
At any given time thereafter, you will always have “one” original configuration (either Shogun "or" Medieval) of sound files for the game program to use, and "two" sets of reconfigured files (Shogun "and" Medieval) that the swap program will use to reload your choice, when changing from one type of operation to the other.
~:cheers:
btw about what i was saying about the mod being just an addition to projectile stats, excuse this comment i am thinking of the kenshin mod which works like this and ive got this now so no worries.
A set of 25 original STW maps is available for download now. They are retextured, but the contours are unchanged and the trees and objects are as close to the original maps as possible. Unzip them into the \battle\maps folder which is under your main MTW/VI game folder. These maps are all prefixed with STW_ so they will appear together in the hosting list.
Jochi Khan
12-13-2004, 22:08
Maps downloaded and installed.
Run a SP , everything ok.
Now all I need to do is get the sounds working heh.
Still can't gt the MTW folder to populate ~:confused:
Jochi
This command: COPY ..\Sounds\Music\"Euro Battle 1.wav" Sounds\Mtw means the bat file has to be run from a folder just below the Sounds folder. The .. means to back up one folder and then the command goes down the Sounds\Music branch, gets EuroBattle 1.wav and copies it to Sounds\Mtw. Sounds\Mtw has no \ in front of it so it will be a folder under where you are running the SoundSetup.bat.
Make sure your system can find choice.com. Put it in C:\WINDOWS\system32 folder.
You may have to delete all those folders that SoundSetup created to get it to run again.
Jochi Khan
12-13-2004, 23:55
Update to STWSounds install.............
I have now manually copied the files that Tomi listed in his post above.
I still cannot get the STWSound to work. :furious3:
Below is the information that I get when I run the the SoundSwapper.
*************
STW SoundSwapper....Choose stats A STW Music
B MTW Music
C STW Orders
D MTW Orders
A. The system cannot find the path specified
0 file/s copied
Repeated about 20 times STW Music
B. Sounds\MTW\Euro Battles1.wav
The system cannot find the path specified
0 file/s copied
Sounds\MTW\Frontend\DESELECT.wav
The system cannot find the path specified
0 file/s copied MTW Music
C. The system cannot find the path specified
0 file/s copied
Repeated about 16 times Japanese Orders
D. Sounds\MTW\Orders
The system cannot find the path specified
0 file/s copied MTW Latin Orders
All the copied files appear to be in their right places. :help:
Thanks for the help Tomi, I printed the post to refer to when installing. ~;)
Jochi
Jochi Khan
12-14-2004, 00:00
Just noticed your post Yuuki.
Must have been typing mine when you posted.
I'll double check that info....see if I got it right. Thanks.
My Choice com is in the C:Windows\system.32
Jochi
Jochi,
Apparently, the SoundSetup.bat and SoundSwapperSTW.bat can't find the files to copy them. Those bat files have to be in the right place relative to the files they are trying to copy. This is the folder structure you need under your main game folder:
\Sounds
\STWsetup
\STWsetup\Sounds
\STWsetup\Sounds\MTW
\STWsetup\Sounds\MTW\Frontend
\STWsetup\Sounds\MTW\Orders
\STWsetup\Sounds\MTWTroops
\STWsetup\Sounds\STW
\STWsetup\Sounds\STW\Frontend
\STWsetup\Sounds\STW\Orders
\STWsetup\Sounds\STWTroops
SoundSetupSTW.bat and SoundSwapperSTW.bat should be in the STWsetup folder. The Sounds folder and the STWsetup folder must be directly under the main game folder.
Jochi Khan
12-14-2004, 00:55
Problem sorted...
The extra ..Sounds file solved it.
Now that I understand what the .. was for.
I use a number of dots often to separate items that I want to emphasise.
Didn't relate the .. as meaning something. :book:
Have successfully run and used the SoundSwapper in a quick battle.
Wierd hearing STW sound when VI disc is loaded heh
Thanks for your help Tomi and Yuuki.
Jochi
Tomisama
12-14-2004, 02:17
Jochi, you certainly have the tenacity to be a Samurai :bow:
Orda Khan
12-14-2004, 18:52
~~~ Inclusion of Mongols ~~~
I would still opt for some way of including a Medium cav unit ( STW/MI MHC? ) alongside a Heavy cav unit. The Japanese now have 5 cav units which is over the top IMO and the Naginata cav unit would appear to be too efficient. Though Naginatas were armoured units, the weapon itself is two handed and would be very unwieldy for use on horseback. I would have expected Naginata cav to be slow and that goes for melee too.
To remove anti cav bonus for MHC would be wrong because it would simply hand a bigger advantage to the Japanese cav. If Yari cav can counter MHC why would I bother taking MHC? Especially since Yari cav is a lightweight unit
I proposed 4 Mongol cav units when Mongols were first mentioned and I still think this should be the case. I would go with this.........
Yuan Imperial Cav.....( Golden Horde HC )
Mongol Heavy Cav.... ( STW/MI MHC altered stats )
Yuan Imperial HA ..... ( Golden Horde HA )
Mongol Horse Archers ( STW/MI MLC )
I agree that this would take some refining but without these units the Japanese more than match the Mongols, unit for unit and some. Even with these units the Japanese still more than match them
......Orda
The hatamoto isn't a full cavalry unit, and isn't as effective as a full cavalry unit. The naginata cav is medium cav and is as slow as HC. I was proposing to drop the Japanese HC so the Japanese would be down to 3 cav units, and the MHC could fit in the spot vacated by the HC. If the HC is retained, the repationships could be something like:
Yuan Imperial Cav.....( Golden Horde HC ) = Japanese Heavy cav = 600 koku
Mongol Heavy Cav.... ( STW/MI MHC ) = Naginata cav + anti cav = 500 koku
Yuan Imperial HA ..... ( Golden Horde HA ) = Yari cav - anti cav = 450 koku
Mongol HA................. ( STW/MI MLC ) = Japanese HA = 400 koku
If the Yuan Imperial cav is made better than the Japanese Heavy cav, it will have to be more expensive and might get priced out of the game.
Jochi Khan
12-15-2004, 01:35
Thanks Tomi for the compliment ~:cheers:
Jochi :charge:
Any news on an alternative d/l site to 3dd.Perhaps you could post if its hosted elsewhere.
I now have the alternate site for STWmod in my sig. BTW, Samurai Wars is a recreation of original STW v1.12 which is not the same as STW/MI v1.02 currently played by a small group of players using fakeserver. You do not have to buy guns in Samurai Wars to be successful as you do in STW/MI v1.02.
Orda Khan
12-15-2004, 17:47
The hatamoto isn't a full cavalry unit, and isn't as effective as a full cavalry unit. The naginata cav is medium cav and is as slow as HC. I was proposing to drop the Japanese HC so the Japanese would be down to 3 cav units, and the MHC could fit in the spot vacated by the HC. If the HC is retained, the repationships could be something like:
Yuan Imperial Cav.....( Golden Horde HC ) = Japanese Heavy cav = 600 koku
Mongol Heavy Cav.... ( STW/MI MHC ) = Naginata cav + anti cav = 500 koku
Yuan Imperial HA ..... ( Golden Horde HA ) = Yari cav - anti cav = 450 koku
Mongol HA................. ( STW/MI MLC ) = Japanese HA = 400 koku
If the Yuan Imperial cav is made better than the Japanese Heavy cav, it will have to be more expensive and might get priced out of the game.
I found Hattamoto to be quite capable in the campaigns I have already fought and they tended to turn up in the enemy armies en masse.
All that clumsy Naginata armour should slow Naginata cav more so than Japanese HC and their kill rate should be greatly reduced, they should be more of a holding, defensive unit than a shock unit ( preferably it should be dropped completely since it never existed )
I cannot see why Yuan Imperial cav has to be same strength as JHC or higher in cost. The Japanese have stronger infantry, a greater choice of units and a unique unit in Nodachi Samurai as the Korean units have no sword choice. Yuan Imperial cav could be similar to JHC plus anti cav bonus and same price. This would at least make up for the limited choice of infantry and would reflect history somewhat. You cannot expect the Japanese cav to be equal to the Mongol cav as well or they will cancel out every Mongol unit.
I would not want to land in Japan with inferior infantry units only to find that my cav is not that good either
........Orda
I found Hattamoto to be quite capable in the campaigns I have already fought and they tended to turn up in the enemy armies en masse.
All that clumsy Naginata armour should slow Naginata cav more so than Japanese HC and their kill rate should be greatly reduced, they should be more of a holding, defensive unit than a shock unit ( preferably it should be dropped completely since it never existed )
I cannot see why Yuan Imperial cav has to be same strength as JHC or higher in cost. The Japanese have stronger infantry, a greater choice of units and a unique unit in Nodachi Samurai as the Korean units have no sword choice. Yuan Imperial cav could be similar to JHC plus anti cav bonus and same price. This would at least make up for the limited choice of infantry and would reflect history somewhat. You cannot expect the Japanese cav to be equal to the Mongol cav as well or they will cancel out every Mongol unit.
I would not want to land in Japan with inferior infantry units only to find that my cav is not that good either
........Orda
The hatamoto gets battlefield upgrades in single player, but not in multiplayer. It's in that class of small units with strong individuals such as kensai and ninja that get more upgrades than normal size units. These units are much less effective in multiplayer, and I have lowered their cost in multiplayer.
Look at the stat on NC. They have less armor than NI or JHC. The JHC is a defensive unit., and the NC is an offensive unit. Creative Assembly made JHC a defensive unit. That's how is has to be in Samurai Wars otherwise it won't be a recreation of the original game. I've been advised not to make a separate era for hatamoto, kensai, ninja and naginata cav, and the Japanese teppo unit. Players can elect not to use those units to get the unit set of STW sans arquebusiers.
For a Mongol era, any of the Japanese units could be dropped. The Mongol era of STW/MI was so screwed up, that I wouldn't try to duplicate it. I see no point in trying to duplicate that stat because putting effort into mastering such a flawed stat on the battlefield is a waste of time.
You can't add combat power to a unit and not change it's cost because that will unbalance the multiplayer game. If the Korean infantry are weaker than their Japanese counterpart, they must be cheaper. If the Mongol cav are better than Japanese cav they must be more expensive.
You could drop JHC and NC and hatamoto so that each faction has 2 cav units. Now the relationship could be MHC (600) beats YC (450), MLC (450) beats CA (400) and YC (450) beats MLC (450). The Japanese player has YS and YA to counter the MHC. If the Japanese player can beat the Korean infantry, he will probably be able to defend successfully against the Mongol cav, but he can never catch the Mongol cav because his YS and YA are too slow.
Orda Khan
12-15-2004, 22:54
[QUOTE=Puzz3D]
Look at the stat on NC. They have less armor than NI or JHC. The JHC is a defensive unit., and the NC is an offensive unit.
How can a unit wielding a naginata on horse back ever be considered an offensive unit? JHC may be a defensive unit, due mainly to its slow speed but if you look at the naginata as a weapon you will understand that it will never match a lance as an offensive cavalry weapon. CA got it badly wrong with this unit, why replicate it?
For a Mongol era, any of the Japanese units could be dropped. The Mongol era of STW/MI was so screwed up, that I wouldn't try to duplicate it. I see no point in trying to duplicate that stat because putting effort into mastering such a flawed stat on the battlefield is a waste of time.
That may be the case but if Mongols are to be included in this Mod there is no point in making them exactly the same as Japanese units. Mongol strength lies with their cavalry.
You can't add combat power to a unit and not change it's cost because that will unbalance the multiplayer game. If the Korean infantry are weaker than their Japanese counterpart, they must be cheaper. If the Mongol cav are better than Japanese cav they must be more expensive.
I don't understand this comment. Surely weaker infantry at same cost and better cavalry at same cost all adds up to both armies same cost. My point was in making the battle an interesting play off between a strong infantry weak cavalry nation versus a weak infantry strong cavalry nation
.......Orda
How can a unit wielding a naginata on horse back ever be considered an offensive unit? JHC may be a defensive unit, due mainly to its slow speed but if you look at the naginata as a weapon you will understand that it will never match a lance as an offensive cavalry weapon. CA got it badly wrong with this unit, why replicate it?
CA did get STW/MI badly wrong. Guns, ninja, kensai, naginata cav, Mongol heavy cav, Korean javelins, morale and probably other stuff I don't remember were all way off. I don't know why Barocca replicated the nag cav. The naginata a two handed weapon. If you watch the nag cav charge, it uses the naginata like it was a lance. I just imagine that it is a lance and not a naginata. There is a place in the gameplay for an offensive cav unit slower but more powerful than the yari cav. It was retained because is serves a purpose in the gameplay whereas making it a defensive unit is redundant since the game already has the defensive JHC.
That may be the case but if Mongols are to be included in this Mod there is no point in making them exactly the same as Japanese units. Mongol strength lies with their cavalry.
They wouldn't be exactly the same as Japanese cav. The JHC is anti-cav and anti-inf. The MLC is better than JLC. The upgrade costs are intentionally overpriced so that weaker units cannot be upgraded to equal more expensive units for less cost. So it wouldn't be possible to upgrade a YC to the point it could beat a JHC unless it was more expensive than the JHC. The YC has 5 combat points, and the JHC has 8 combat points. You would need 2 valor upgrades to get the YC to 9 combat points. At 70% cost that would be 450*1.7*1.7 = 1300. I proposed the JHC at cost 600. With a single upgrade, the YC would be weaker than the JHC and still cost more: 450*1.7 = 765.
You can't add combat power to a unit and not change it's cost because that will unbalance the multiplayer game. If the Korean infantry are weaker than their Japanese counterpart, they must be cheaper. If the Mongol cav are better than Japanese cav they must be more expensive.
I don't understand this comment. Surely weaker infantry at same cost and better cavalry at same cost all adds up to both armies same cost. My point was in making the battle an interesting play off between a strong infantry weak cavalry nation versus a weak infantry strong cavalry nation.
What you propose would make Mongol cav the most cost efficient and the Korean inf the least cost efficient. Non-uniform cost efficiency would lead to unbalance because players would simply purchase the most cost efficient units. Limited money is the only constraint. Another problem is that you cannot add more combat points to JHC's 8 because they would then not loose to the YS which has 2 + 8 anti-cav points.
i am delighted this is still in development, but tell me, will these improvements enhance the singleplayer as well, or is it a MP only improvement?
any eta?
regards
PeegeeTips
I believe the STWmod single player is improved by Samurai Wars. Samurai Wars includes two separate sets of STW units; one for SP and one for MP. Adjustments can be made to SP and MP independently. The cost structure is different between the two sets, and I've fixed the no-dachi run speed and a slight weakness in the nag cav. Samurai Wars also makes the guns stronger which will improve SP.
STWmod is a beta, and barocca is interested in any feedback on the SP gameplay. He intends to make a new beta early next year, and I'll be making any necessary adjustments to Samurai Wars in a few weeks based on feedback as well. Try SP campaign and if something seems off it can be changed without affecting MP.
Orda Khan
12-18-2004, 18:31
Cost efficiency or not, I would not send MHC into a wall of Yari Samurai.
So far all I have seen in any Mongol army is over priced and under strength units, there would not be much point in downloading this mod only to find more of the same
.......Orda
Unbalanced Mongol units would degrade the gameplay in Samurai Wars. I wouldn't introduce them to the mod if they aren't balanced.
shogun888
12-19-2004, 22:33
Yuuki, what files do I need? Is it a case of installing the 3 files linked in ur signature?
IrishMike
12-20-2004, 03:03
I just wanted to congradulate you all on a wonder mod and effort to make this mod. I love it, as I never got the chance to play the original. The only thing I have to say about it, is that I found the muskets or teppos (I think that is how it is spelled) to be mabey a little to powerful. But again, thx for your effort. Its a great mod. ~:cheers:
Yuuki, what files do I need? Is it a case of installing the 3 files linked in ur signature?
Yes the three files in my signature. First install STWmod, and then install Samurai Wars. After that you must run STWmod.bat to swap projectile stats. The STWmaps are optional. There are readme files included with these downloads which explains how to install them. All of these downloads are compatible with MTW/Vi v2.01. You don't have to use a separate install of MTW/VI. One thing the mod also does is fix the missing corpses for a few of the unit types in MTW/VI.
I just wanted to congradulate you all on a wonder mod and effort to make this mod. I love it, as I never got the chance to play the original. The only thing I have to say about it, is that I found the muskets or teppos (I think that is how it is spelled) to be maybe a little to powerful. But again, thx for your effort. Its a great mod.
Thanks ColdKnight. Glad you like it. Barocca did an outstanding job on STWmod, and a few of us have tried to bring back the gameplay of original STW with Samurai Wars. I think it does recapture the feel of original STW remarkably well with a few things that represent improvements. Through no doing of mine, the heavy cav (HC) beats the warrior monks (WM). This is actually good for the gameplay because in original STW the WM had no counter unit, and the HC has 2 counter units in addition to being the most expensive unit. Although not present in the original game, the naginata cav serves a useful purpose in Samurai Wars and makes the cav actions more interesting. The battlefield upgrades are not pressent in MP, and this keeps units within their starting operational parameters throughout the battle. The valor upgrade is more expensive than the honor upgrade was in original STW. Targetted units receive a morale penalty from ranged weapons only if they take a casualty. I see the routing away from the threat as an improvement, although not all players see it that way.
The teppo are a departure from original STW. The weaker teppo is equivalent to the strongest gun in original STW. The better teppo is 50% stronger. Since this is a significant departure from the original game, it has to be looked at carefully. I'm not sure if you are playing Samurai Wars SP campaign or MP, and I'd be interested in knowing that and anything more specific you might want to add. As it stands in MP right now, the teppo at least are going to need a small cost increase or all units will get a morale boost so MP can be played at 5k which would effectively make ranged units more expensive because you couldn't lower their valor relative to the other units. There are several disadvantages to the morale boost idea. At this point I don't know which is the better solution. SP campaign and MP unit cost and number of men in the unit can be adjusted independently while projectile effectiveness is common to both SP campaign and MP.
IrishMike
12-20-2004, 23:43
It was Samurai wars. It just seemed that whenever the enemy got really close (the enemy as yari samurai) that around 10 yari samurai were killed with each volley. I would say they were around a inch and a half away on the screen. One thing I do love about the game is how, when the enemy is put in impossible situations or they are getting slaughtered, a mass rout occurs. 10x more realistic than the demi god heroics in MTW.
It was Samurai wars. It just seemed that whenever the enemy got really close (the enemy as yari samurai) that around 10 yari samurai were killed with each volley.
That's the way it's supposed to work. A point blank volley from 60 Japanese teppo can drop as many as 15 men, and the yari samurai's morale is not high enough to tolerate that. The yari samurai can successfully advance on a Japanese teppo that's in 3 rank formation because its losses will be distributed over several smaller volleys. However, a yari samurai is not fast enough to catch a teppo in skirmish mode. It's one of the least desireable units to use against a teppo.
IrishMike
12-22-2004, 02:55
Alright thanks for the info. Wasn't sure if that was accurate or not. I thought it might have been, just was checking. Once again great work guys. ~:cheers:
ELITEofIMPERATOR
12-28-2004, 16:48
nice, very nice, excelent job guys :)
in my opinion this mod is better then the damned TW ROME! :bow:
eliteofmarcaurel and me have tested this mod on totomi and the gameplay is much the same gameplay like STW 1.12.
but the musks (teppos) are too strong and the firepower too high. this firepower remember me to the "LASERGUN-MUSKS" in stw 1.02.
it is possible to decrease this firepower?
on the other side YARI-samurai have absolutly no chance versus nodachis (yaris should hold a little bit longer)
and monks cant compensate during the face to face fight the powerfullcharge of this "new"killernodachis.
moreover their are some bugs for "not english-VI versions" because its not possible to start the mod (a translation-error is the problem)
for example:
in the german version you have a ...Total War\Medieval - Total War\Loc\German file and a ...Total War\Medieval - Total War\Loc\English file.
i have to overwrite the german files with the englishfiels then i can play STWmod (but in in english).
it is also possible to creat german files? or how can i do this onself?
RUHM UND EHRE
IMP
nice, very nice, excelent job guys :)
in my opinion this mod is better then the damned TW ROME! :bow:
eliteofmarcaurel and me have tested this mod on totomi and the gameplay is much the same gameplay like STW 1.12.
Thanks Imperator.
but the musks (teppos) are too strong and the firepower too high. this firepower remember me to the "LASERGUN-MUSKS" in stw 1.02. It is possible to decrease this firepower?
At what money level did you play? Most of our battle tests were done at 8500 florins and all units at least valor 1. The Portuguese teppo costing 100 at valor 0 is the same firepower as the musket costing 175 in STW v1.12 at honor 2. The musket in STW v1.12 was often used at honor 1 for 146 koku, and other units were upgraded such as yari samurai at honor 4 for 288 koku or even honor 5 at 345 koku. So, the relative cost of a musket compared to a typical yari samurai in STW v1.12 was between 42% and 50%. If you play Samurai Wars at 8500 and use valor 0 Portuguese teppo (100) and valor 1 yari samurai (340), the teppo only costs 29% of the YS. So, it's clearly underpriced. That's why it's necessary to play with all units at least valor 1 when playing at 8500 florins. The way I'll deal with this in the next update to Samurai Wars is probably to add +2 morale to all units and say to play at 5000 florins. Then no honor sell off making ranged units cheaper than they were designed to be is possible at least at 5000. The morale level would be what you had with honor 2 units in STW v1.12. An exact dupication of the gameplay in STW v1.12 is not possible with Samurai Wars. It can only be made close to it.
The Japanese teppo costing 150 has 50% more firepower than the Portuguese teppo. This unit doesn't exist in STW v1.12. So Samurai Wars won't play like STW v1.12 when this unit is used or when kensai, ninja, hatamoto or naginata cavalry are used. The question is should an STW v1.12 era be created without these units?
Right now a Japanese teppo will get 1.5 kills per 20 man volley on a yari samurai at max range. The muskets in STW/MI v1.02 have about 2x that firepower. We could take some firepower off the Japanese teppo by lowering the accuracy, and I'll do that if I keep hearing from players that they are too strong. However, if too much is taken away, it will become like a Portuguese teppo. In test battles, naginata cav, heavy cav, no-dachi and warrior monks have no trouble charging a Japanese teppo. I would hesitate to send expensive units like heavy cav and warrior monks at fullsize gun units because of the high cost of each man. It's better to weaken the gun unit first with your own ranged unit. If that's not possible, you still have the option to charge the gun. In online tests with 8 yari samurai vs 8 non-skirmishing Japanese teppo in 3 rank rotating fire, the yari samurai charged and won.
on the other side YARI-samurai have absolutly no chance versus nodachis (yaris should hold a little bit longer)
and monks cant compensate during the face to face fight the powerfullcharge of this "new"killernodachis.
The no-dachi stats are the same as in STW v1.12 as are all the units. I think the no-dachi beating the yari samurai a little faster is due the lack of upgrading on the units during army purchase. I didn't think this was bad because the yari samurai is an anti-cav unit and shouldn't really be a unit to hold the line against shock infantry. The shock infantry, no-dachi and monks, are hurt badly by archers, and defeated by cavalry. The no-dachi is priced at 250 right now. It cost 300 in STW v1.12, but our battle tests of Samurai Wars showed that no-dachi at 300 were not being used at all. If you compare the combat stats of no-dachi 8/5/-2/1/8 and monks 4/5/2/1/8 (charge/attack/defend/armor/morale), you see 3 melee points + 4 more charge for no-dachi, and 7 melee points for monks. The 4 more charge is worth about 1 melee point, so the no-dachi could be considered worth about 4/7 of a 500 koku monk = 286 koku. It's priced at 250 in Samurai wars. Pricing it at 275 won't help because there is no way to use the saved 25 per unit until you buy 4 because no other units are priced on 25 or 75 intervals.
I don't actually see yari samurai collapsing all that fast to a no-dachi if the YS is in hold formation. The no-dachi only has a 1 combat point (20%) advantage over the YS, and the charge kills are about 5. I did run tests in STW v1.12 and Samurai Wars on no-dachi vs yari samurai, and the test came out the same in length of time to win.
moreover their are some bugs for "not english-VI versions" because its not possible to start the mod (a translation-error is the problem)
for example:
in the german version you have a ...Total War\Medieval - Total War\Loc\German file and a ...Total War\Medieval - Total War\Loc\English file.
i have to overwrite the german files with the englishfiels then i can play STWmod (but in in english).
it is also possible to creat german files? or how can i do this onself?
I'll have to run this by barocca because it's an STWmod issue. All I did was develop the unit stats, and I don't think that should work with all languages.
Orda Khan
01-01-2005, 23:56
Well I tried it but have to admit I am not convinced. Something is very wrong when 7 monks and 17 yari cav can route 43 naginata, 15 yari samurai and 17 nodachi. Two minutes later the same units and another 17 monks are routed by 19 monks!!!
........Orda
Orda,
If you are playing in SP custom battle, all bets are off because of the battlefield upgrades. Near the end of a battle, the unit characteristics can be very different from what they were when the battle started. Samurai Wars beta 5 is set up for valor 1 units at 8500 money which reduces the battlefield upgrades somewhat, but Samurai Wars beta 6 has +2 morale and 2x cost to all units so it plays at valor 0 at 10,000 money and this will increase the battlefield upgrade effect.
Even in MP which has no battlefield upgrades, the situation you describe can happen. I would expect the 7 monks and 17 yari cav to beat the 43 naginata, 15 yari samurai and 17 no-dachi. If the yari cav hit the no-dachi, they will rout them and the monks will rout the yari samurai. The naginata will then probably rout due to negative morale effects of seeing 2 friendly units rout and being flanked.
I would not expect 19 monks to beat 17 monks, 7 monks and 15 yari cav, but it could happen especially if the larger force was more fatigued. Even with equal fatigue the 17 monks would have to engage first, and then a flanking attack from the 15 yari cav before the 17 monks loose. Engaging in any other sequence will probably cause the larger force to loose because the 7 monks or the 15 yari cav wil loose to the 19 monks, and once again negative morale effects will impact the 17 monk unit. Also, the 19 monks will get a moral boost as soon as they rout a unit, and with small units whoever looses the first man or two is going to get a big negative morale effect because its magnitude is based on the percentage of casualties in a combat round.
Another possibility is for the 19 monks to go straight for the 17 monks. It's more risky, but it can work. If the 17 monks rout quickly which could happen due to statistical uncertainty in the individual combats, that would probably win it for the 19 monks. They would get a morale boost, and the 7 monks and 15 yari cav would get a morale penalty and possibly rout right away, and neither of those units is strong enough to beat the 19 monk unit anyway.
The morale level of Samurai Wars seems high enough to me based on watching MP replays. If you want higher morale you can play with more money, and buy equal valor for all the units.
Orda Khan
01-02-2005, 12:42
Correction........
15 monks and 18 yari cav were engaged by 22 yari samurai, 21 nodachi and 44 naginata.
The numbers quoted above were as I saw them when the rout began.
It was MP at 10,000 koku on beta 6.
The 15 monks were hit frontally by the yari samurai and nodachi at the same time, the nodachi being faster than the yari's. The 18 yari cav then engaged but were simultaneously hit by 44 naginata. After some two to three seconds of h2h they routed ( after losing just one man ) the nodachi and yari samurai followed suit.
That cannot be right.
The monks should have done far less against the odds which were more than 2-1. Even the arrival of 18 cav should have made little or no difference since they were hit immediately by 44 naginata.
My 19 monks, later simply charged headlong into the three units described as I assumed all was lost
.....Orda
These are the numbers at the time of rout rather than at the time of engagement, but here is how they stack up. The monetary value of the 15 monks is 250. That's 15*(1000/60)=250. The monetary value of 22 yari sam is 73, and of 21 no-dachi is 87 which gives a total of 160. So, the 15 monks are worth more than those other two units combined. The monks are that good with 7 combat points compared to 3 for the no-dachi and 2 for the yari sam. Monks are 200% better than no-dachi and 250% better than yari sam in melee. Going by combat points, the monks are equivalent to 30 no-dachi and 37 yar sam, but actually 15 monks will probably beat 60 yari sam because of the morale difference. There is a -4 morale that kicks in at 80% decimation. That would be less than 12 men, but the monks haven't reached that point yet. All 3 units are going to be suffering the -8 morale penalry for 50% decimation, so the morale level is low which means other morale factors play a larger role than they did at the beginning of the battle. The no-dachi may appear to be relatively safe from rout, but they have very low defensive capability, and the monk has high offensive capability. For a monk striking at a no-dachi, chance to kill is 1.9% * 1.2 ** (5 - (-2)) = 6.8% which means the no-dachi will loose men fast and incur a morale penalty from those losses, the size of which I don't know, (It's related to the ratio of the number of men lost in a combat round compared to the number of men left in the unit.) which will add to the morale penalty they incur from the fact that they will be loosing to the monks. In contrast, the monks gain up to +6 morale bonus from the fact that they are winning the matchup.
Even if your idea is that the 22 yari sam and the 21 no-dachi shouldn't rout, they still can't beat the 15 monks in a straight up fight because they don't have enough combat power. The best you could hope for is that the 15 monks go for the yari sam which is in hold formation, and somehow the no-dachi can hit the monks in the flank before the yari sam rout. It's not very likely, and the monks aren't going to go for the yari sam unless the no-dachi are too far away to make that flanking attack.
The yari cav routing the larger naginata points up something that's different between MTW/VI and STW. In MTW/VI, units get a morale penalty of up to -8 for loosing and an additional morale penalty of -6 if it's loosing to cav. That's a possible -14 morale in a system where the rout point is -18. The intent of this was to give the cav an ability to rout infantry with it's charge, but failing that the cav would loose the melee. There is a -2 morale for 90% decimation which the 43 man naginata has, and a -3 morale for very tired which I would image the naginata also has near the end of a battle. The naginata start with 6 morale, and all those penalties add up to a possible -19 without the penalty for casualty ratio included. I've done straight up fights between 60 man yari cav charging 60 man naginata, and the yari cav loose eventhough the naginata is not an anti-cav unit. It's possible the naginata needs another +2 morale, and that's something to consider before Samurai Wars is brought up to v1.0. Also, yari sam might need +2 morale, but I don't think these decisions can be made only on how the units are performing at the end of a battle. Right now, the rock, paper, scissors is working better in Samurai Wars with the STW stats than it did in original STW.
The 19 monks beating 15 monks, 17 monks and 18 yari cav would not seem likely except morale is a big factor with small and possibly fatigued units. All you are going to have to do is rout one of those units, and, if the others are nearby, they could easliy run away. The 19 monks are capable of routing any one of those 3 units. STW was like this as well. If the morale were raised, the 19 monks wouldn't be able to win, but you would have a problem with units fighting too long in the first part of the battle. I don't see any solution for that since the morale penalties are not modable.
Orda Khan
01-02-2005, 20:51
After some two to three seconds of h2h they routed ( after losing just one man )
My recollection of STW was a naginata unit, though it was not capable of defeating monks, could at least hold for some time. This lot engaged, gave up and routed. There was no cav charge to consider, the cav had engaged the yari samurai and nodachi. At 800 koku the morale of the naginata was, or at least appeared to be, worse than either the yari samurai or nodachi, lesser units and far more depleted.
I took 3 units of naginata in total and was very disappointed with their performance. So much so, I wonder what their role is. As an armoured unit they should be one of the least affected by missiles and their elite status should make them combat efficient but they seem reluctant to mix it with nodachi and monks cause an almost immediate rout. When backed by archers the Taisho and 4 nodachi reserves I expected them to at least hold for a while.
As it stands the monk appears to be a bit of an uber unit, whereas the naginata is a paper tiger ( IMO ) and only 200 koku less than monks
......Orda
If a 43 man naginata routed after loosing 1 man, there must be some additional situational factors affecting its morale. Without other morale factors, that unit wouldn't rout from the loss of 1 man.
In a Samurai Wars custom battle test, the warrior monk beats naginata in 70 to 75 seconds. The monk will typically loose 20 to 25 men while killing 40 to 45 at which point the naginata routs. In STW v1.12, this matchup is about the same, but I intend to conduct some online tests to see how close it is.
In Samurai Wars custom battle test, the yari cav is equal to the naginata. They are both down to 30 men in about 90 seconds, and are down to about 10 men at the 180 second mark. Either unit can win. This is about the same in STW v1.12, but I'll do some further online tests on this matchup as well just to make sure.
Samurai Wars beta 7 has been posted. Based on online battles and feedback, there are several adjustments:
1. Costs are all raised by a factor of 2, and morale raised by +2 on all units so it plays at 10k money with valor 0 units. This effectively makes ranged units such as teppo more expensive since they can't be used at lower valor than melee units.
2. Yari Samurai and yari ashigaru have their morale increased by +2. This will make them fight longer. They had a tendency to rout too soon in previous versions since you play without upgrades.
3. Naginata walk speed has been increased from 4 to 6 to lessen their fatigue and resultant loss of morale and fighting ability. They now walk at the same speed as yari samurai.
4. Naginata maximum turning rate has been increased to be the same as the other infantry types, so they should be very slightly better in melee combat.
5. Charge speed of infantry is now run speed + 2. The cavalry and special infantry unit types already had this.
1dread1lahll
01-16-2005, 16:58
I need some help plz. Ive downloaded the stw mod, I run it and it goes to a folder of its own,how do I get the thing into the right folder in VI? Or explain how I make it work plz.
Sasaki Kojiro
01-16-2005, 19:01
This is looking good...I may have to get VI. How often is this mod played online?
lahll,
If you downloaded the 70 MB version of STWmod, that's a zip file, and, if you extracted the files to your main game folder and you are running WinXP, the files will go to a new folder created by WinXP under your main game folder. To recover from that navigate to that new folder with file explorer, select all teh files and folders in that folder and cut and paste it to the next folder up which is your main game folder. If the unzip went somewhere else ti it's own folder, do the same thing: cut and paste it all to your main game folder.
If you downloaded the 40 MB Samurai Wars Installer that CBR made, it should find your main MTW/VI game folder. I think you have an option during the install to manually enter a folder name if you notice that the installer hasn't found your main MTW/VI folder. The main MTW/VI folder is the one containing the Medieval_TW.exe file.
The current version of the Samurai Wars stat is 7b, and is contained in the Samurai Wars Installer. There will be a Samurai Wars 8b released today or tomorrow. This is a small zip file, and the best way to install it is to unzip to a temporary folder and then copy the contents of that folder to your main MTW/VI folder and overwrite when prompted.
Sasaki Kojiro,
I think more players are trying this recently. Orda reported seeing 2v2's and a 3v3 game using it this week. I haven't been able to promote Samurai Wars in the foyer as much as I wanted over the last several weeks, but we have been online with it a few times each week and each time new players install it and we play some games. We've been able to get two 4v4 games played with it last week. Everyone who has tried it so far has liked the gameplay. As tiime goes on more and more players are installing it, but ultimately the quality of the RTW patch is going to have an impact on how many players move on to RTW or stick around and play MTW/VI. However, I don't think the quality of the gameplay in RTW in terms of balance will ever approach that of Samurai Wars, and I'm not saying that just because I worked on Samurai Wars. Players are able to successfully use more combinations of unit types in Samurai Wars with its 14 unit type than they can in MTW/VI with its 100 unit types.
The gameplay of Samurai Wars approaches that of STW v1.12 with some slight differences since cav is naturally better in the MTW/VI engine, and this mod plays without upgrades which preserves the RPS. There is a gun type that is 50% stronger than the musket in STW v1.12, but this only about half as strong as the musket in WE/MI v1.02, and the NC and HC cav types can charge home on these guns so they have to be protected. We did try settnig the mod up for valor 1 units and allowing the honor sell back, but some of the old balance problems such as too many cheap guns showed themselves.
Samurai Wars 8b has three multiplayer cost adjustments (unit prices are 2x original STW costs). SA changed from 500 to 400, CA from 800 to 700 and the hatamoto from 500 to 400. Recent tests showed these units were underutilized. This new price is more in line with the honor 1 cost at which the SA and CA units were found to be useful in STW v1.12. CA was actually often used at honor 0, and has 10% more speed and 25% more accuracy than it had in STW v1.12 as compensation. Both of these units retain the combat and morale of the honor 2 STW v1.12 unit. SA armor was increased from 1 to 2 to maintain the CA/SA balance in a shootout in view of the CA's improved accuracy. This has virtually no affect on the SA/teppo balance,but will increase survivability in an SA/SA shootout. The ninja's star weapon range has been increased from 65 meters to 75 meters, but this unit needs to be more fully evaluated. The 8b also removes the kensai from multiplayer because we haven't been able to balance the unit in view of the fact that it gets 6 lives as the general. The hatamoto has been moved to the first position in the cavalry selection sceeen to indicate that it's primarily intended to be used as the general. This is still a beta and these new changes have to be thoroughly tested in multiplayer battles, but it's getting close to final now with these fine tuning adjustments. Overall gameplay and routing effects look good.
Sasaki Kojiro
01-16-2005, 22:23
Sasaki Kojiro,
I think more players are trying this recently. Orda reported seeing 2v2's and a 3v3 game using it this week. I haven't been able to promote Samurai Wars in the foyer as much as I wanted over the last several weeks, but we have been online with it a few times each week and each time new players install it and we play some games. We've been able to get two 4v4 games played with it last week.
Awesome! Sounds like a good enough turnout to me, I'm used to shogun server after all. I'll pick up vi in a couple weeks when my arm heals enough to use a mouse
Orda Khan
01-16-2005, 22:36
Samurai Wars 8b has two cost adjustments (unit prices are 2x original STW costs). SA changed from 500 to 400, and CA from 800 to 700. Recent tests showed these unit were underutilized. This new price is more in line with the honor 1 cost at which those units were found to be useful in STW v1.12. CA was actually often used at honor 0, and has slightly more speed and accuracy as compensation. The 8b also removes the kensai from mulriplayer because we haven't been able to balance the unit in view of the fact that it gets 6 lives as the general. This is still a beta, but it's getting close to final now with these fine tuning adjustments. Overall gameplay and routing effects look good.
The cost of CA and the resulting lack of them on the battlefield was noticeable and the reduction in their cost is a smart move and one that will improve the gameplay even further, I am sure. The same could be said for SA who were also being 'left back in the barracks' due to Teppo being 200 koku less per unit.
I immediately noticed the improvement to Naginata and I think they are now the 'real deal' Naginata of original STW ( brilliant!! )
I also played about a bit with armies and was pleasantly surprised with the choice available, even the lowly Ashigaru have a place, which is great to see.
So glad to see you have decided to cast out the Kensai. I can live with a small unit of Ninja as they added something to the game but Kensai ruined it IMO. The Hattamoto cav fits in nicely.
I look forward to trying out 8b.
......Orda
1dread1lahll
01-17-2005, 00:41
Ok, I got it installed, how-ever when I try to start a champaign it crashes to desk-top.
lahll,
You used the Samurai War Installer? I'll try it, but it works for CBR. Maybe another installed mod is interfering.
Here is a summary of all the changes in Samurai Wars 08b.
Samurai Wars 8b has three multiplayer cost adjustments (unit prices are 2x original STW costs). SA changed from 500 to 400, CA from 800 to 700 and the hatamoto from 500 to 400. Recent tests showed these units were underutilized. This new price is more in line with the honor 1 cost at which the SA and CA units were found to be useful in STW v1.12. CA was actually often used at honor 0, and has 10% more speed and 25% more accuracy than it had in STW v1.12 as compensation. Both of these units retain the combat and morale of the honor 2 STW v1.12 unit. SA armor was increased from 1 to 2 to maintain the CA/SA balance in a shootout in view of the CA's improved accuracy. This has virtually no affect on the SA/teppo balance, but will increase survivability in an SA/SA shootout. The ninja's star weapon range has been increased from 65 meters to 75 meters, but this unit needs to be more fully evaluated. The 8b also removes the kensai from multiplayer because we haven't been able to balance the unit in view of the fact that it gets 6 lives as the general. The hatamoto has been moved to the first position in the cavalry selection sceeen to indicate that it's primarily intended to be used as the general. This is still a beta and these new changes have to be thoroughly tested in multiplayer battles, but it's getting close to final now with these fine tuning adjustments.
STWmod does not work with non-english versions of MTW/VI. There was a set of italian language files produced, but they have to be updated. A set of files for each language could be produced and made available as patches to STWmod. They would have to be updated if Barocca does additional work on the unfinished names in STWmod. Alioven has offered to make the spanish language files. Right now I don't know the details on which files have to be translated.
There has been some feedback on Samurai Wars that certain ranged unis have too low morale. The units have the same morale level as honor 2 units in STW v1.12. The two spear units, YA and YS, did get +2 morale over STW v1.12 since they have to engage in melee and were breaking too soon. The Japanese teppo is 50% more effective in firepower, and this may be why the lower morale units seem more fragile, but 1 on 1 a 60 man cav archer can charge and kill a 60 man Japanese teppo in 3 ranks loosing about 16 men to 2 volleys. In a battle situation, there are also more complicated morale penalties such as being outnumbered that come into play, but we've seen players get over100 kills with a cav archer in battles on large maps before their accuracy was increased and cost lowered in version 08b. Average kills in team games are about 600+ with 960 man armies which is a lot of attrition, and an indication that overall morale is ok. We see ranged units routing when they get caught by cav or used too aggressively. Right now I'd like to get more feedback before raising morale on the low morale units.
L'Impresario
01-19-2005, 19:30
Average kills in team games are about 600+ with 960 man armies which is a lot of attrition, and an indication that overall morale is ok.
I haven't played the mod extensively (not even remotely heh) but the 600+ kills you mention , do include kills and captures. In the few 2v2 and 3v3 I've played, I could place the kills more closely to the 400-550 range, with the higher end being reached when the game is following a slower pace. I suppose the difference between the morale in 10k VI and 10 sw is quite evident, some easy routing indeed, very hard to skirmish guns , although very easy for them to rout at times, even if no actual contact with enemy is made (ofcourse many factors come into play as you mentioned).
Vinsitor
01-19-2005, 23:43
Well, I'm still trying to apply the mod to my Italian version of VI, we'll see if it works :/
I did an italian localization for Barocca's STW beta 5 mod. I probably still have it. If some txt will change in this mod, tell me and I'll update the italian LOC files with the new ones.
Send me txts to vinsitor@yahoo.it
Good work M8!!!
Vinsitor
01-19-2005, 23:52
STWmod does not work with non-english versions of MTW/VI. There was a set of italian language files produced, but they have to be updated. A set of files for each language could be produced and made available as patches to STWmod.
I did it. I'll update all the old files and do the missing ones. Send me all on my mail :bow:
Vinsitor
01-20-2005, 00:10
nice, very nice, excelent job guys :)
in my opinion this mod is better then the damned TW ROME! :bow:
RUHM UND EHRE
IMP
IMP!!! Glad to see you again M8! ~:cheers:
Our old forum was moved, the new one is un my sign (there is also the old alliance section).
Many of us are inactive with Rome and waiting for the patch, but we'll be glad to meet you on the STW-mod's battlefield, just like in the past ally!!! ~:grouphug:
RUHM UND EHRE ELITES!!!
I did an italian localization for Barocca's STW beta 5 mod. I probably still have it. If some txt will change in this mod, tell me and I'll update the italian LOC files with the new ones.
Send me txts to vinsitor@yahoo.it
Good work M8!!!
That would be great Vinsitor! I've asked barocca to forward the files.
LuminousSun
01-21-2005, 12:15
my 1st impressions are very good :bow:
great job mizu.
A+ for the modders.
i am going to clean my armour and get back on my horse :charge:
rome was a sad episode for me. :dizzy2:
But i finally get to play shogun so life is all good again ~:cheers: thanks
R'as al Ghul
01-21-2005, 14:21
Hi Puzz3D,
thanx for the great effort you put into this. It's appreciated very much.
Is barocca's model-pack (including the temples & castles) already available for the community? If so, where?
About the different languages, I posted this months ago in one of baroccas STWMod threads but couldn't find it. When you have a different language version than english it should be safe to copy and paste all files from the \loc\english folder into \loc\yourlanguage folder, thereby overwriting the original files of that folder. The result is a language-mixture between english and yourlanguage. Everything that was changed is in English, the rest in yourlanguage.
:bow:
R'as
I think all 3 language versions are being worked on now.
Barocca's model pack isnt available yet as it needed some changes to work online with players who doesnt have the model pack installed (would cause desync in online battles) Yuuki knows more about that.
CBR
Thx LuminusSun and Ra's. I have to say that LongJohn of CA did a vey
fine job of balancing original STW which Samurai Wars closely follows,
and Barocca did the massive work of making the STWmod for MTW/VI. CBR,
Krypta and Mitch put a lot of effort into developing the Samurai Wars
stat as well, and Krypta did a lot of the STW map conversions. Tosa has
made a conversion utility to bring the sounds and music from STW into
STWmod which enhances the atmosphere while playing. Barocca has made an
excellent Japanese model pack for the maps, but I have to investigate a
problem which makes it incompatible with regular MTW/VI maps.
There will be a Samurai Wars 09b, but I'd like to pick up the remaining
unit morale issues before releasing it. One thing that seems certain is
that YA will get +2 morale. Player feedback on other units that might
need adjustment is welcome, and I'd like to see replays demonstrating
the problem if possible.
One thing I'd like to point out is that YC is not a good unit to charge
guns. It's a very effective unit when used to flank or to counter other
cavalry. The NC is much more effective charging into guns, but the NC
requires protection from enemy YC. Since you don't use upgrades with
Samurai Wars at 10k and can't pump a YC to higher morale, a choice has
to be made between YC and NC depending on your battle plan. An NC + YC
would be a flexible cav combo whereas an NC + NC combo or a YC + YC
combo would emphasize either direct or indirect tactics respectiveley.
Samurai Wars gives up fexibility in tailoring units with upgrades to
gain more stable unit balance. If you really want to play with
upgrades, you can play with more than 10k, but it might be good to limit
them to weapon and armor only. The valor upgrade is extremely
expensive anyway at 70% of these relatively high base costs.
Thank you Barocca, Yuuki, CBR, Mitch, and Krypta.
I got into STW because of my infatuation with all things Japanese, and moved into MTW because Shoggie pretty much went into a coma online and I could only conquer Japan so many times before it became routine.
You have breathed new life into one of my favorite pastimes, and the whole community should applaud this incredible effort.
My wife never got online, and never cared for Medieval, but when she saw the campaign mod we started to fight over the computer, something that hasn't happend for a long time. I think I may have to buy her a computer just for her STW/VI campaigns.
It seems to work perfectly, its pretty, SP AND MP, many new factions, easy to install, doesn't seem to conflict with VI. Pretty much a perfect score. The American judge gives it a 10.0.
I've always had a lot of respect for you guys, but this raises you up even higher.
And it has brought some old vets back who were missing from the VI lobby, not to mention that several clans that have been, well, lets say clans that had issues with one another, they seem to have come together to support this.
Outstanding.
I look forward to the online fighting and to the new experiences in the campaign mode.
Thanks
ichi
ps I think the only way I might be able to help is if you need any maps. Let me know if you need anything like that, or maybe beta-testing the next version.
ElmarkOFear
01-24-2005, 06:09
If you need any help in seeing how chain routs work, let me know. I always seem to manage a really big one! :) I just wish I was on at the time you guys play. Darn new work shift is keeping me away from you! ;(
UglyandHasty
01-24-2005, 15:21
I have install the STW mod(download all the stuff from Yuuki's sig), change the missiles stats, but still have incorrect version. Any clues ?
Well you can start checking if its properly installed. Do you see a new era to pick from when either hosting or setting up a custom battle? Do you have version conflict with regular games too when you have swapped to stwmod stats?
CBR
UglyandHasty
01-24-2005, 15:51
I didnt tried hosting, and i have version conflict with regular games too ....
I guess i 'll reinstall the whole stuff, again ...
What should i install ? just to be sure
Hm ok that means statswapping is working. So either outdated stats or the main installer didnt install into the right place. Please do check in either custom battle or in MP if you actually have the new stw era to pick from.
CBR
KyodaiSteeleye
01-25-2005, 20:38
Downloaded 8b last night and had my first custom 4v4 on Yamato, my fav' map. It was a real pleasure playing the game again - just like old times! And i like the unit costs - seeming v.good balancing at 10k.
I look forward to taking so folks on online soon.
BTW - I apologise if this has been discussed - i don't really want to wade through all 5 pages of posts - is there a STW campaign mod in the pipeline? - or are you just relying on the original game? (fair do's if you are - better weather, anyway...).
STWmod has a single player campaign. Elmark is going to run a STW multiplayer campaign, and there is a thread for that in the Sword Dojo.
ElmarkOFear
01-25-2005, 21:09
WE have about 8 people in the STW MP campaign and are looking for at least 6 more so there can be two to a team. That way if one has to take off some time for work, family etc . . the other can carry on.
We found the error in Samurai Wars that caused rebel armies in the SP campaign to have mtw/vi units. It's fixed in Samurai Wars 09b which will be posted soon.
Thank you Barocca, Yuuki, CBR, Mitch, and Krypta.
ps I think the only way I might be able to help is if you need any maps. Let me know if you need anything like that, or maybe beta-testing the next version.
Thanks Ichi. We could use some help making the STW map conversions. Krypta is working forward alphabetically from the begining and I'm working from the end backwards. If you want to start in the middle and work one way or the other, that would be great. When you bring an STW map into the MTW editor, you'll notice that the trees are approximately correct. So, you have to fill the forests out, substitute reasonable textures for the rest and place some models. Be careful not to change any heights. We still have to find the bug in the Japanese model pack before we can use it on these maps.
KyodaiSteeleye
01-26-2005, 14:37
Thanks for the reply - with 8b installed, i don't have an option to start a samurai wars campaign (no era visible for it) - only use it in custom or MP battles - an installation problem?
I will join Elmark's campaign as Nigel's deputy probably.
dan.
P.S: - for all that were on last night in MP - ta for the games, i really enjoyed them.
Thanks for the reply - with 8b installed, i don't have an option to start a samurai wars campaign (no era visible for it) - only use it in custom or MP battles - an installation problem?
You have to use the scroll down arrow to see the SP campaign.
KyodaiSteeleye
01-26-2005, 22:42
doh!
I've posted an updated Samurai Wars stat: 09b in my signature. This new stat incorporates suggestions made by players who tried 08b. The changes are:
1) fixed an SP campaign bug which caused rebel armies to get mtw unit types.
2) HC, YC, CA, SA, YA and teppo received +2 morale.
3) CA dropped to 600 cost.
4) YC raised to 1000 cost.
5) YC received -1 def and +1 anti-cav bonus so it's less effective vs infantry.
6) YS and YA received +2 anti-cav bonus.
7) HC made slightly more offensive by moving 1 combat point from def to att.
There will be yet another beta release of Samurai Wars. The Gnome editor introduced some extra lines of text at the end of the stat file and this can cause problems if players edit that file. Also, both the cav archers and foot archers will probably have 2 combat points removed so that they are more accurately modelled as STW honor 1 units. They are already priced as honor 1 units in Sam Wars, and I've done the custom battle testing in STW and Sam Wars with the 2 combat points removed and the units perform as they did in STW relative to each other and to honor 2 no-dachi, i.e. the cav archer will loose to no-dachi in melee unless it first shoots and weakens it.
Right now the planned multiplayer adjustments from their current values for the next version of Samurai Wars are -1/-1 (att/def) on CA and teppo, -1/-1 anti-cav on SA and -1 armor and -2 morale on hatamoto. These changes won't alter the gameplay that exists in 09b very much, and just cause ranged units to loose more quickly in melee. We decided to let SA retain the fighting ability of an STW honor 2 unit vs infantry.
There have been a couple of requests to model the ranged units in multiplayer as their STW honor 0 equivalents. The teppo are already priced as such, so the issue is whether or not to turn the SA and CA into almost pure shooters with ashigaru melee capability and lower their cost by about 40%. A problem I see with that is for instance a CA can recover its 600 cost with 15 volleys on a YC or 12 volleys on a WM, and an SA its 400 cost with 10 volleys on YC and 8 on WM. So, if archers are lowered in cost, their ranged unit effectiveness or ammo may have to be reduced. I think this has to be looked at carefully before going to cheaper archers.
In SP campaign, I'm looking at the kensai's performance in battles to make sure it's not overpowered, but there may not be much that can be done because battlefield upgrades max out this unit's combat power quickly. Also, there was a report of the campaign crashing in 1537, but I went through that year in my campaign with no problems.
KyodaiSteeleye
02-08-2005, 15:09
A small bugette from the SP campaign - don't know if it has been posted before - you can't seem to retrain or merge your original starting units - you get the 'buildings do not exist to retrain this unit' message when you try the former (and the buildings do exist). I'm playing as the Ryuzogi. Tis fun so far though!
Crazed Rabbit
02-10-2005, 04:22
I just want to say thank you to all the wonderful people who worked on this. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
This is a wonderful mod!
Sincerely,
Crazed Rabbit
PS: Of course, this may seem so great and wonderful because I've just come from the brain dead world of RTW AI ("When the enemy charges you, raise your spears and turn your backs in disdain.")
Substance over style...just the way I like it.
Thanks Crazed Rabbit,
Right now I'm working on getting the SP campaign kensai and xbow stats more balanced. These two units aren't included in MP or custom battle. I'd like to have them in custom battle, but I don't think that can be done without them showing up in MP. I've also lowered the morale on some SP units so there is less fighting to the last man under the high level generals that are so prevalent in the campaign. I've corrected some of the missing corpses in SP campaign battles, and am working on a few that still aren't showing.
KyodaiSteeleye,
I will try to figure out why recombining and retaining of some units isn't working.
Samurai Wars 10b has been battle tested, and is now released. The changes are relatively minor, but should improve the gameplay. The changes are:
1) Teppo and CA get -1/-1 (att/def) and SA get -1/-1 (att/def) vs cav.
2) Hatamoto get -1 armor and -2 morale.
3) Ninja get slightly increased range and improved accuracy for the stars.
4) Xbows rebalanced in the SP camapaign.
Tomisama
02-14-2005, 13:08
Thanks Yuuki ~:)
Some nice fine tuning.
Have already posted the change in the Samurai Clan Wars Rules.
http://www.clanwarscomp.org/samurai/samurai_logo.jpg
P.S. While I was doing that, I noticed the self installer link wasn't working. Brings up a server Forbidin message
Tomi,
RTW v1.2 downloads used up all the bandwidth. So, probably for the next couple of weeks, players will have to get STWmod from 3DDownloads here. (http://www.3ddownloads.com/totalwar/MTW/Stats/STW_Mod_BETA5_20nov.zip)
Or http://tosainu.demon.nl/files/files/cbr2
Samurai Wars MP unit stats:
(The number in parenthesis is vs cavalry)
Portugese Teppo
----------------------
Men: 60
Cost 200
Charge bonus: 0
Attack factor: -7
Defense factor: -4 (-7)
Armor: 2
Morale bonus: 0
Walk speed: 7
Run speed: 12
Charge speed: 12
Ammo: 20
Reload: 21 sec
Range 100 meters
Accuracy: 0.12
Lethality: 72%
Power: 4
Armor modifier: 0.015
Japanese Teppo
----------------------
Men: 60
Cost 300
Charge bonus: 0
Attack factor: -7
Defense factor: -4 (-7)
Armor: 2
Morale bonus: 0
Walk speed: 7
Run speed: 12
Charge speed: 12
Ammo: 20
Reload: 21 sec
Range 100 meters
Accuracy: 0.16
Lethality: 72%
Power: 4
Armor modifier: 0.015
Samurai Archers
----------------------
Men: 60
Cost 400
Charge bonus: 2
Attack factor: 0 (-1)
Defense factor: 0 (-1)
Armor: 2
Morale bonus: 4
Walk speed: 6
Run speed: 10
Charge speed: 12
Ammo: 36
Reload: 4 sec
Range 100 meters
Accuracy: 0.6
Lethality: 12%
Power: 1
Armor modifier: 1.0
Yari Ashigaru
----------------------
Men: 60
Cost 200
Charge bonus: 0
Attack factor: -1 (4)
Defense factor: -1 (4)
Armor: 2
Morale bonus: 2
Walk speed: 7
Run speed: 12
Charge speed: 14
Yari Samurai
----------------------
Men: 60
Cost 400
Charge bonus: 0
Attack factor: 0 (5)
Defense factor: 2 (7)
Armor: 3
Morale bonus: 6
Walk speed: 6
Run speed: 10
Charge speed: 12
No-dachi
----------------------
Men: 60
Cost 500
Charge bonus: 8
Attack factor: 5
Defense factor: -2
Armor: 1
Morale bonus: 10
Walk speed: 7
Run speed: 12
Charge speed: 14
Naginata
----------------------
Men: 60
Cost 800
Charge bonus: 2
Attack factor: 0
Defense factor: 6
Armor: 5
Morale bonus: 6
Walk speed: 6
Run speed: 8
Charge speed: 10
Warrior Monk
----------------------
Men: 60
Cost 1000
Charge bonus: 4
Attack factor: 5
Defense factor: 2
Armor: 1
Morale bonus: 10
Walk speed: 7
Run speed: 12
Charge speed: 14
Ninja
----------------------
Men: 12
Cost 800
Charge bonus: 4
Attack factor: 8
Defense factor: 6
Armor: 2
Morale bonus: 10
Walk speed: 8
Run speed: 14
Charge speed: 16
Ammo: 12
Reload: 3 sec
Range 40 meters
Accuracy: 0.8
Lethality: 22%
Power: 6
Armor modifier: 0.015
Hatamoto
----------------------
Men: 11
Cost 400
Charge bonus: 5
Attack factor: 4
Defense factor: 6
Armor: 5
Morale bonus: 8
Walk speed: 8
Run speed: 22
Charge speed: 24
Ammo: 12
Reload: 4 sec
Range 120 meters
Accuracy: 0.6
Lethality: 18%
Power: 1
Armor modifier: 0.5
Heavy Cavalry
----------------------
Men: 60
Cost 1200
Charge bonus: 5
Attack factor: 3
Defense factor: 5
Armor: 5
Morale bonus: 8
Walk speed: 8
Run speed: 20
Charge speed: 22
Naginata Cavalry
----------------------
Men: 60
Cost 900
Charge bonus: 4
Attack factor: 4
Defense factor: 2
Armor: 4
Morale bonus: 8
Walk speed: 8
Run speed: 20
Charge speed: 22
Yari Cavalry
----------------------
Men: 60
Cost 1000
Charge bonus: 4
Attack factor: 2 (7)
Defense factor: 2
Armor: 3
Morale bonus: 6
Walk speed: 10
Run speed: 24
Charge speed: 26
Cavalry Archer
----------------------
Men: 60
Cost 600
Charge bonus: 3
Attack factor: 0
Defense factor: 1
Armor: 3
Morale bonus: 4
Walk speed: 8
Run speed: 20
Charge speed: 22
Ammo: 36
Reload: 4 sec
Range 100 meters
Accuracy: 0.5
Lethality: 12%
Power: 1
Armor modifier: 1.0
So I want to download this mod, but I need to be confident about what Im getting as Im on 56k.
So I see you are talking about v10b, but the sig of Puzz3D says:
Samurai War installer
includes STWmod 05b for MTW/VI v2.01, Samurai Wars 08b unit stats and STWmappack.
So I am downloading the file Samurai_War2Fix.exe from TosaInu's CBR, but is this the latest version? Also, why is it called Fix?
So I want to download this mod, but I need to be confident about what Im getting as Im on 56k.
So I see you are talking about v10b, but the sig of Puzz3D says:
So I am downloading the file Samurai_War2Fix.exe from TosaInu's CBR, but is this the latest version? Also, why is it called Fix?
Yes the main installer has not been updated with the latest stats yet so you need to download the 10b stats too (that is just a small zipfile to update the unit stats).
The second version of the installer was a missing file in it, so was updated and "fix" was added to the name.
CBR
Wilbo,
The SamuraiWar2Fix (http://tosainu.demon.nl/files/files/cbr2/Samurai_War2fix.exe) is a full installer made by CBR which contains barocca's STWmod beta5 graphic mod for MTW/VI v2.01, and it contains the older Samurai Wars 08b unit stats and STWmaps. Once you download and install that, you want to download the updated Samurai wars 10b (http://www.mizus.com/hosted/Yuuki/samuraiwars_10b.zip) unit stats which is a zip file that you unzip to your main MTW/VI folder allowing it to overwrite older files. The full installer creates a Samurai Wars shortcut on your desktop pointing to STWmod.bat which can be used to swap stats between Samurai Wars and regular MTW/VI. The Samurai Wars 10b unzip initially sets the stats up for Samurai Wars, and you'll have to run the STWmod.bat to swap back to MTW/VI stats. Always exit the game to swap stats. The STWmod is compatible with MTW/VI mods which do not alter graphics, but is not compatible with mods such as Napoleonic MTW which do alter game graphics.
Tomisama
02-16-2005, 13:04
The self installer is composed of three parts.
STWmod 05b for MTW/VI v2.01
Samurai Wars 08b unit stats
STWmappack
The unit stats have been recently revised from 08b through 09b to 10b.
To have the version that is currently being played on line, you will have to upgrade to 10b, to be compatible with other players.
Hope that helps :book:
cromwell
02-16-2005, 16:08
Guys, I tried out the mod in a custom battle last week, and the samuri archers didn't have any animations for shooting. Walking and running were fine but when attacking they just stood their and arrows flew from them. Is this just a bug on my end or do the animations need help?
Cromwell
Orda Khan
02-16-2005, 17:45
Cavalry Archers.....
Same speeds as Naginata Cavalry yet with only the same armour as light Yari Cavalry?
Not sure I agree with stats like that, I can see no reason for them being a slow unit. They are same speed also as Heavy Cavalry, I don't like that
......Orda
Cromwell,
Their is an archer shooting animation, but it's out of sync. The arrows are released after the archer lowers his bow. I think this can be fixed, but it has to be sent to barocca and included in his next release of STWmod.
Orda,
HC and CA were the same speed in STW v1.12. The YC were 20% faster, and could catch the CA. That set up a gameplay dynamic where YC venture out trying to catch the enemy CA which in turn require protection by their own YC, YS or YA. Right now the cav speeds in Samurai Wars are all the same as they were in STW v1.12, and the NC is the same speed as HC so as not to alter the original gameplay.
I think we have to consider what will happen to the gameplay if HC are speed 20, NC are speed 22, and CA and YC are speed 24. The counters to CA would then be SA or another CA. You wouldn't have to provide protection to CA since no unit could catch them. If players would prefer that gameplay over original STW gameplay we could set up Samurai Wars that way.
Orda Khan
02-16-2005, 21:28
If Heavy and Naginata Cavalry are 8 20 22 and Yari Cavalry are 10 24 26, I don't see anything wrong with Cavalry Archers being 8 22 24 or even 10 22 24. This still provides the Yari Cavalry with a speed advantage.
........Orda
Cromwell,
I think we have to consider what will happen to the gameplay if HC are speed 20, NC are speed 22, and CA and YC are speed 24. The counters to CA would then be SA or another CA. You wouldn't have to provide protection to CA since no unit could catch them. If players would prefer that gameplay over original STW gameplay we could set up Samurai Wars that way.
I concur, for what it's worth CA should be no slower than other cav (24), faster than NC and HC IMO.
But I think NC and HC should be the same (22)
ichi :bow:
Sasaki Kojiro
02-17-2005, 03:53
I think we have to consider what will happen to the gameplay if HC are speed 20, NC are speed 22, and CA and YC are speed 24. The counters to CA would then be SA or another CA. You wouldn't have to provide protection to CA since no unit could catch them. If players would prefer that gameplay over original STW gameplay we could set up Samurai Wars that way.
Well, in MI almost no one brought yari cav, so there was effectively no unit that could catch cav archers...any player who didn't protect their CA lost them quite quickly...I caught enemy CA with my nag cav many many times....and shot them up with my archers as well.
Well, in MI almost no one brought yari cav, so there was effectively no unit that could catch cav archers...any player who didn't protect their CA lost them quite quickly...I caught enemy CA with my nag cav many many times....and shot them up with my archers as well.
I think you could do that in MI because NC charge speed is 15% higher than CA run speed, the skirmishing AI activates too late and the CA skirmish back at their run speed. In Samurai Wars, the skirmish AI activates at just under 40 meters which is the charge distance, the CA skirmish back at their charge speed and the NC charge speed is equal to the CA charge speed, so the NC won't catch the CA until they run them to the edge of the map.
As it is now in Samurai Wars with YC 10/24/26 and CA 8/20/22, it takes the YC 30 seconds to catch a skirmishing CA from the time the CA start to skirmish back, and that covers 220 meters. Since Samurai wars is often played on large maps it might be possible to trim the CA/YC speed differential to 3 points and retain the original gameplay. I think trimming it to 2 points would make it impractical for a YC costing 1000 to chase a CA costing 600. We could bring the CA's walk speed up to 10 which I believe would help it rotate a bit faster.
KyodaiSteeleye
02-18-2005, 23:23
gone somewhat quiet on the boards - on tonight (friday) at 10.00 and NO-ONE is willing to play SamWars Mod. ~:confused:
I checked the foyer 3 times Friday between 20:00 and 24:00 GMT, but no one was there to play Samurai Wars. Right now RTW is killing this mod, but players may return when the shortcomings of RTW gameplay become tiresome. I just watched an RTW 3v3 between two clans, and the gameplay came down to a quick 2 on 1 which the loosing team couldn't respond to in time despite the fact that this team's forte is rushing and all three of their armies were lined up side by side. If those guys can't respond to a rush in RTW, nobody can. Fast movement speed, delay of units reponding to orders and fast combat resolution all work to lower the time available to respond to a threat.
Orda Khan
02-19-2005, 20:03
I loaded the patch for RTW and checked it out only to be [ suspicions confirmed ] very disappointed with the so called 'improvements' in gameplay. Maybe a game between friends may prove to be something near to fun but as a serious competition between teams IMO it offers nothing. I failed to find anything which improved it for me. The biggest ruination is to the Horse Archers :end: All I can hope is that this mess is sorted in some further patch [ ~:joker: ] or expansion.
Somehow I doubt there will be an overwhelming return to Samurai Wars, people seem to go with the flavour of the month, sadly. Hopefully enough players will realise how bad RTW actually is and return to enable some good 4v4 Samurai battles to take place.
I would like to think that Tomi's Samurai CWC is completed after all his hard work.
Oh well, maybe in a week or two the Samurai will return
.........Orda
Yuuki, CBR, and Barocca,
Absolutely stellar work guys. Although I've not yet played just the idea of STW remade gives me chills. I read some of the posts in this and other threads and am excited to say the least. I've been away from the community for about 6 months. This is great to comeback to after trying the new RTW patch *sigh* which isn't all I (and others too from what I've read) hoped for. I hope to catch you online to congratulate you on the nice work.
Cheers,
Yoyoma
Just had a quick run of a couple battles online. Nicely done indeed.
Units seem a bit larger to be though....my memory is rusty but did the unit sizes used to be 40 as a default? Regardless it was great.
Now if I can just copy the music from the STW disk and make a revolving mp3 out of it to play in the background all would be complete!
Jochi Khan
02-22-2005, 15:45
Hi Yoyoma
Glad you enjoyed the experience.
As for the STW sounds.....
Look back through this thread to page 3 post No.76.
In there Yuuki has posted the STW Mod Sound link to enable the STW sounds to be used when playing Samurai Wars.
Page 4 posts No. 91 and 98 give clear instructions how to install it.
Now you can have what you want ~;)
Jochi
Yoyoma,
I'm glad you like the mod. There are quite a few players who have this installed now, and they are almost all experienced players. So, when you get a game, not only is the gameplay good, but you get a good game. And on a good night, you can get 3 or 4 intense games in an hour which is about the same pace of original STW.
Samurai Wars is an attempt to recreate the original gameplay of STW v1.12 as much as possible by staying very close to the original unit stats. We have made some adjustments based on player feedback from battles, and we'll probably make more adjustments in the future. Two things we are looking at now are cav archer speed and back kills from teppo.
The cav were all 60 man units in STW v1.12. They are less maneuverable than the 40 man cav units of MTW. If you want to stop cav from charging and escape a counter charging cav unit, you have to issue the command sooner than you would in MTW. Also, these 60 man units are more likely to clip the corner of an enemy unit, and get drawn into fighting that unit. On the plus side, these larger cav units can engage more times, and as they become smaller they become more maneuverable. If any of the cav were changed to 40 men, it would affect the playbalance.
Samurai Wars has 4 units that were not in STW v1.12. They are the naginata cav and the battlefield ninja from MI, and the hatamoto and Japanese teppo which were introduced by barocca. These units are integrated into the gameplay fairly well, but might need further adjustment. One idea is to give the hatamoto more men, but right now it works nicely as your general which is the intended purpose. In retrospect, it probably should have 12 men since that's what is has as a general in the SP campaign.
The STW sound utility made by Tosa is designed to move the battle commands and music from MI to STWmod, but I used it successfully on STW sounds and music. I did notice a loss in sound volume, but was able to get it loud enough by turning up the volume in the game's audio options. The music is fully replaced, but not all the battle commands are replaced.
Having a bit of a problem with it. I've tried switching stats before launching the game, and am still getting a version conflict, with both sets of stats. Just tried it, and both stats didn't work for the same game being hosted. Any thoughts? I'm using the most recent ones in Yuuki's sig.
Just reinstalled the whole game, and I can join games now. Is the stat swapper just not working for me, or are the stats I downloaded wrong? ~:confused:
You mean you can join regular VI games?
CBR
yeah, I now can after reinstalling the game, and not the mod. But before, when I had the mod installed, I got the version conflict message and couldn't join games. swapping the stats back and forth before launching (starting-whatever) VI did not help.
OK so I just installed the STWmod 05b thing, which apparently has the 08b stats. I checked online and did not get a version conflict.
Then I unzipped the 10b unit stats to my main MTW folder, looked online, and had a version conflict, after testing with both sets of stats. But this time as a precaution before installing the mod I copied the projectilestats, and both unit_prod files to another folder (I didn't know if either one was affected in a stat swap...figured it was just the projstats, but wanted to be cautious). So I recopied them back over, and I can now join games again. So is the swapper not working for me?
Do you get a menu (small DOS window) to pick projectile stats from when running the statswapper?
CBR
yeah, I either choose A, B, or X. A - VI stats. B - STW stats.
I know you know that part, just clarifying. ~;)
STWmod.bat just swaps the projectiles.txt file. The two projectile files are put into these subfolders under the main game folder by the unzip:
STWprojectile\STWmod\projectiles.txt (file date is 02/12/05 9:18 AM)
STWprojectile\VI\projectiles.txt (file date is (03/07/03 8:27 PM)
However, Samurai Wars 10b contains the STW projectile.txt with and without a path, so when you install the 10b the initial configuration is for joining Samurai Wars 10b games, and you have to run STWmod.bat to swap back to VI compatibility.
It sounds like the STWmod.bat isn't bringing back the original projectile.txt to the main game folder. STWmod.bat must be located in the main game folder with the STWprojectiles folder a sub folder to the main game folder. If you use Windows XP unzip, it puts everything in a subfolder under the unzip location given. This is different than Winzip which doesn't create that extra subfolder. If this is what happened, just grab everything in that subfolder and copy it up one level to the main game folder. You'll have to adjust the desktop Samurai shortcut to point to the new location of STWmod.bat.
PFJ_bejazuz
02-28-2005, 00:32
i'm trying to get hold of the shoggy mod but the link states theres been bandwidth probs
any of you chaps know of a mirror site
*nearly there with you span me man*
Tomisama
02-28-2005, 02:28
Yes, first download and run the self installer.
http://www.clanwarscomp.org/samurai/Samurai_War2fix.exe
Then, download, unzip and add the upgrade.
http://www.clanwarscomp.org/samurai/samuraiwars_10b.zip
(Extract to a temporary folder, copy the contents, paste in your MTW/VI v2.01 main folder, answer yes to all replacements.)
~:)
PFJ_bejazuz
03-01-2005, 14:20
cheers dude
the VDM will get to leather 3 instead of just two of us now
:0)
do i install them in the order you put the links?
shingenmitch2
03-01-2005, 16:06
These are the numbers at the time of rout rather than at the time of engagement, but here is how they stack up. The monetary value of the 15 monks is 250. That's 15*(1000/60)=250. The monetary value of 22 yari sam is 73, and of 21 no-dachi is 87 which gives a total of 160. So, the 15 monks are worth more than those other two units combined. The monks are that good with 7 combat points compared to 3 for the no-dachi and 2 for the yari sam. Monks are 200% better than no-dachi and 250% better than yari sam in melee. Going by combat points, the monks are equivalent to 30 no-dachi and 37 yar sam, but actually 15 monks will probably beat 60 yari sam because of the morale difference. There is a -4 morale that kicks in at 80% decimation. That would be less than 12 men, but the monks haven't reached that point yet. All 3 units are going to be suffering the -8 morale penalry for 50% decimation, so the morale level is low which means other morale factors play a larger role than they did at the beginning of the battle. The no-dachi may appear to be relatively safe from rout, but they have very low defensive capability, and the monk has high offensive capability. For a monk striking at a no-dachi, chance to kill is 1.9% * 1.2 ** (5 - (-2)) = 6.8% which means the no-dachi will loose men fast and incur a morale penalty from those losses, the size of which I don't know, (It's related to the ratio of the number of men lost in a combat round compared to the number of men left in the unit.) which will add to the morale penalty they incur from the fact that they will be loosing to the monks. In contrast, the monks gain up to +6 morale bonus from the fact that they are winning the matchup.
Even if your idea is that the 22 yari sam and the 21 no-dachi shouldn't rout, they still can't beat the 15 monks in a straight up fight because they don't have enough combat power. The best you could hope for is that the 15 monks go for the yari sam which is in hold formation, and somehow the no-dachi can hit the monks in the flank before the yari sam rout. It's not very likely, and the monks aren't going to go for the yari sam unless the no-dachi are too far away to make that flanking attack.
The yari cav routing the larger naginata points up something that's different between MTW/VI and STW. In MTW/VI, units get a morale penalty of up to -8 for loosing and an additional morale penalty of -6 if it's loosing to cav. That's a possible -14 morale in a system where the rout point is -18. The intent of this was to give the cav an ability to rout infantry with it's charge, but failing that the cav would loose the melee. There is a -2 morale for 90% decimation which the 43 man naginata has, and a -3 morale for very tired which I would image the naginata also has near the end of a battle. The naginata start with 6 morale, and all those penalties add up to a possible -19 without the penalty for casualty ratio included. I've done straight up fights between 60 man yari cav charging 60 man naginata, and the yari cav loose eventhough the naginata is not an anti-cav unit. It's possible the naginata needs another +2 morale, and that's something to consider before Samurai Wars is brought up to v1.0. Also, yari sam might need +2 morale, but I don't think these decisions can be made only on how the units are performing at the end of a battle. Right now, the rock, paper, scissors is working better in Samurai Wars with the STW stats than it did in original STW.
The 19 monks beating 15 monks, 17 monks and 18 yari cav would not seem likely except morale is a big factor with small and possibly fatigued units. All you are going to have to do is rout one of those units, and, if the others are nearby, they could easliy run away. The 19 monks are capable of routing any one of those 3 units. STW was like this as well. If the morale were raised, the 19 monks wouldn't be able to win, but you would have a problem with units fighting too long in the first part of the battle. I don't see any solution for that since the morale penalties are not modable.
Yuuk, this is the first time I've read this stuff, but I'm starting to agree with Orda. I've been noticing that unit match-ups are determining games more than the old pin-and-flank tactics. If I get the matchups correct, the kill seems so rapid, that flanking is an afterthought. I agree that a correct matchup should win --- and it will with even a 1 point difference. I guess it is a question of how fast. As I recall old STW, MI and even MTW, flanking was always the first option for the win because match-up was a much slower or uncertain effect.
I'm wondering if, because of the MTW engine, there are some other factors coming into play where, although the stats are equivalent, the results are not. (that said, I read where you tested ND's vs YS and the time to defeat was the same for both orig. STW and mod. STW). Orda's experiment does show something is weird because I don't think you could run that same experiment in original STW and get the same results -- but I guess that would be an interesting test.
Here's an example of what I mean: If I have a WM and it is charged by a HC, it should be able to hold, and have a second WM flank and defeat the HC. Right now that WM would die before the second WM hits -- worse both WMs might still lose because of the match-up disparity. Well the solution is a to have a spear hit the HC in the first place. Okay, but then I win becuase its a spear unit, no need to bother flanking and waste a "free" unit on what is a sure (and quick) win anyway. Where does this leave flanking?
This same effect happens over the spectrum of match-ups. YC vs 2 NDs; 2 YS vs 1 WM. The 2 vs. 1 might not win or usually won't win. And if I do happen get the correct match-up why bother flanking?
It seems to me, that regardless of match-up, any solid combat unit (YC,NC,WM,ND,YS,Nag,HC) must be able to hold long enough for a second such unit to fairly quickly flank -- and the flank attack, regardless of unit types involved, should be devastating. Right now the only time I see a unit hold evenly for a long periods of time is 2 of the same types, then the flank comes into play. (ie. WM vs. WM, or YS vs YS) but if the match-up is bad, the the "pinning" unit is gone before a flank can usually help. I'm probably overstating things a bit, but that feels like the net effect.
I've also read that the stats are all equivalent to STW at a given price range, but I'm starting to question that cost-structure theory.
I'm not sure that this statement is true: "a unit has 2x better chance to kill, therefore it costs 2x as much, and will cause casualties in a 2:1 ratio." A 2x chance to kill (i'm guessing) will translate to 3:1 casualties or more since as the winner wins, the losing unit is having its soldiers doubled up -- thus the loss becomes exponential. A similar effect happens with guns -- a small win initally translates to 30-40 guns still alive when with the other guy gone.
Also, an "alive" unit at 1/2 strength is not half the value -- the other guy has no unit. In ratio terms a starting power ratio of 2:1 with cost of 2:1, has not held its ratio when the ending result ratio is 1:0 (2:1 is not equal to 1:0).
If the combat results aren't truly 2:1, then should the cost be 2:1? I'm wondering if they should be much closer, of course even 100 cost steps makes that very difficult.
To complicate matters of cost, look at guns. Each is 300, why would anyone ever risk a 900 NC to kill even one gun unit? Answer: Because of a cascade of unit effectiveness. I kill that 1 Gun, then my guns win the duel (maybe easily), then I shoot enemy -- (what are the aggregate cost of those losses) AND/OR I force the enemy to attack, at my provocation -- thus providing a decisive advantage (esp. in 3v3 where an attack might be force his team into a bad spot). All this for a 900 vs. 300 unit. Maybe there is no better way to establish a cost structure, but I guess my point is that when looking at unit effectiveness I think it isn't possible to boil it down to simply $ and combat points and assume it is covered properly.
Yuuk, this is the first time I've read this stuff, but I'm starting to agree with Orda. I've been noticing that unit match-ups are determining games more than the old pin-and-flank tactics. If I get the matchups correct, the kill seems so rapid, that flanking is an afterthought. I agree that a correct matchup should win --- and it will with even a 1 point difference. I guess it is a question of how fast. As I recall old STW, MI and even MTW, flanking was always the first option for the win because match-up was a much slower or uncertain effect.
That's because in STW players reduced the RPS by evening out the combat power with upgrades. YS and ND and even NI were almost always ungraded while WM were not. In Samurai Wars, if you get a correct matchup you don't have to flank. So, flanking is something you're going to be trying to do if you have an inferior or equal matchup. I've tested 2 ND vs 1 WM in Samurai Wars, and the two ND when deployed abreast can win by one of them pinning and the other flanking. I'll retest this later to see just how long the ND lasts. WM vs ND is the fastest melee infantry vs melee infantry matchup in the game. We know from past experience that the gameplay deteriorates if units fight too long because a local combat advantage can be easily nullified by enemy units coming from great distances. An ND is the worst unit to use as a pinning unit. It is correct to use them to target YA or YS or to flank an engaged enemy unit. There really are no all purpose units in Samurai Wars.
I'm wondering if, because of the MTW engine, there are some other factors coming into play where, although the stats are equivalent, the results are not. (that said, I read where you tested ND's vs YS and the time to defeat was the same for both orig. STW and mod. STW). Orda's experiment does show something is weird because I don't think you could run that same experiment in original STW and get the same results -- but I guess that would be an interesting test.
The rate of casualties and length of the melee is the same for STW and Samurai Wars when you plug in the same unit stats. Cavalry charge is not the same. In STW, there are no charge kills, and it seems that this was fixed in the MTW engine. As a result, we reduced the cav charge values somewhat so that cav in Samurai Wars wouldn't get so many charge kills that it would rout everything on contact. There are a greater variety of morale penalties in the MTW engine, but the morale system is essentially the same as STW and the penalties common to both games are the same size.
Here's an example of what I mean: If I have a WM and it is charged by a HC, it should be able to hold, and have a second WM flank and defeat the HC. Right now that WM would die before the second WM hits -- worse both WMs might still lose because of the match-up disparity. Well the solution is a to have a spear hit the HC in the first place. Okay, but then I win becuase its a spear unit, no need to bother flanking and waste a "free" unit on what is a sure (and quick) win anyway. Where does this leave flanking? This same effect happens over the spectrum of match-ups. YC vs 2 NDs; 2 YS vs 1 WM. The 2 vs. 1 might not win or usually won't win. And if I do happen get the correct match-up why bother flanking?
What happened to cav beats swords and swords beat spears? Cav gets a lot of it's kills in the charge and those happen very quickly. So, I don't know about the validity of a unit that's supposed to loose to cav holding on long enough for another inf unit to flank. I haven't done that particular test, and I'll try it tonight. It's possible that HC is getting too many charge kills on WM, and we can check this out. I'd be surprised if an HC can take on 2 WM's straight up and win. HC are only 1 combat point stronger than WM, and with all other things equal 1 combat point advantage only gets you 6 wins out of 10. Right now HC is a 3/5 rather than the 2/6 it was in STW, and it's anti-units are YS (5/7) and YC (7/2) with YA (4/4) evenly matched.
The YC (2/2) vs ND (5/-2) is also 1 combat point advantage, but the rate of casualties will be higher than an HC (3/5) vs WM (5/2) matchup, so I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't enough time for the ND to flank. This is another situation that wasn't specifically tested since the criteria followed was to make the YC beat the ND in about the same lenth of time it takes in STW with about the same casualtiy ratio. One YC (1000) and two ND (500 each) cost the same, so I wouldn't say two ND should be a definite win. I would say the chances should be about equal.
In the case of 2 YS vs 1 WM, the YS should loose. The 2 YS cost 800 and the WM costs 1000. In addition to that, the YS has very low attack and charge values, and is not a fast inf unit. It's not a good unit to use as a flanker. Better would be a YS in hold formation as a pinning unit, and an ND as a flanker. I think that combination would beat a WM.
It seems to me, that regardless of match-up, any solid combat unit (YC,NC,WM,ND,YS,Nag,HC) must be able to hold long enough for a second such unit to fairly quickly flank -- and the flank attack, regardless of unit types involved, should be devastating. Right now the only time I see a unit hold evenly for a long periods of time is 2 of the same types, then the flank comes into play. (ie. WM vs. WM, or YS vs YS) but if the match-up is bad, the the "pinning" unit is gone before a flank can usually help. I'm probably overstating things a bit, but that feels like the net effect.
An ND should hold long enough against an HC so that you can send an ND around the back and kill the HC? I don't think so because, if you always limit yourself to two units of the same type, you will always be misusing one of the units. I don't thnk there is any way we can make the combat resolution always take the same amount of time without discarding the RPS.
I've also read that the stats are all equivalent to STW at a given price range, but I'm starting to question that cost-structure theory. I'm not sure that this statement is true: "a unit has 2x better chance to kill, therefore it costs 2x as much, and will cause casualties in a 2:1 ratio." A 2x chance to kill (i'm guessing) will translate to 3:1 casualties or more since as the winner wins, the losing unit is having its soldiers doubled up -- thus the loss becomes exponential. A similar effect happens with guns -- a small win initally translates to 30-40 guns still alive when with the other guy gone.
The costs are not all exactly equivalent to STW nor are units priced such that 2x chance to kill means 2x the cost. STW was played at 5k , and that set the overall morale level. That's the meaning of saying Samurai Wars is stat and cost adjusted to play like STW at 5k. We did increase the RPS by 20% and modelled the ranged units as their H1 equivalent based on battle results after Samurai Wars was released.
Also, an "alive" unit at 1/2 strength is not half the value -- the other guy has no unit. In ratio terms a starting power ratio of 2:1 with cost of 2:1, has not held its ratio when the ending result ratio is 1:0 (2:1 is not equal to 1:0).
I did that cost analysis to relate partial units of different types. A unit of half it's original size is worth something like half it's cost, although, its moralel is lowered. Also, you can roughly keep track of how you are doing in a battle by keeeping a running total of your monetary losses compared to the enemy's monetary loss. For example, if you have lost 3000 worth of men and only inflicted 1000 worth of losses on the enemy, you are not winning the battle, and the closer you get to the end of the battle the more of a factor that difference is going to become.
If the combat results aren't truly 2:1, then should the cost be 2:1? I'm wondering if they should be much closer, of course even 100 cost steps makes that very difficult.
They aren't. Mobility, morale and ranged capability all figure into the cost. If we are sure the units are in their correct 100 step cost, we could consider moving to steps of 50 for further fine tuning, but I don't think we are there yet.
To complicate matters of cost, look at guns. Each is 300, why would anyone ever risk a 900 NC to kill even one gun unit? Answer: Because of a cascade of unit effectiveness. I kill that 1 Gun, then my guns win the duel (maybe easily), then I shoot enemy -- (what are the aggregate cost of those losses) AND/OR I force the enemy to attack, at my provocation -- thus providing a decisive advantage (esp. in 3v3 where an attack might be force his team into a bad spot). All this for a 900 vs. 300 unit. Maybe there is no better way to establish a cost structure, but I guess my point is that when looking at unit effectiveness I think it isn't possible to boil it down to simply $ and combat points and assume it is covered properly.
We didn't boil it down to simply $ and combat points. We used STW stats and costs as a starting point, and then adjusted those stats and cost to get balanced gameplay in battles. Remember how far off the gameplay was back in November and December, but we kept playing battles and making small adjustments until we got the game to where it was good enough for release. The 20% increase in the RPS was necessary because YC were beating monks, and YS were loosing out to cav and starting to disappear from play. So, maybe the RPS is a bit stronger than you would like, but I think right now we have a fairly good balance across all the units, and I don't think the cav/sword rush is a walkover, although, it's not easy to stop with a balanced army either. I currently have an army that works quite well for me. It has 5 swords, 2 spears, 5 shooters and 4 cav, but I see players using various armies with success, so that's a good sign.
shingenmitch2
03-01-2005, 23:01
Hi Yuuk,
What I was getting at about the 2:1 ratio vs. 1:0 is that having a "half-unit" vs. an opponent with "no unit at all" makes that 1 weak unit far more valuable than its half-unit value would suggest.
If I get the correct match-ups, across the board with no flanks, and if every match-up wins, but just barely -- I still win. I have every unit left (maybe only 10 guys in each), but my opponant has 0, so it doesn't matter that my 1000 WM lost slowly to a 400 YS and was taken down to 10 men.
My thought on SPR -- yes, cav should beat sword, head-up, over time. But, and this is pretty much how I recall all previous versions of the shoggie engine, 2 units almost always beat 1 unit (ashis/muskets, archers excluded). It was the whole point. You try to free up a unit to get a double because it was that important. It also meant that maybe I could make up for a bad match-up through maneuver.
In old STW I could hold 4 monks with 4 spear -- for a time. I would eventually lose every match-up, unless I could wiggle free a 5th unit to flank and start a rout before the heads-up break. Yet it was very viable to try to hold the monks breifly with spears. I don't dream of that now.
What happens at the end of a game, if my army survives with 4 depleted NDs, and my opponant has 2 depleated HC? I probably can't win no matter my skill in maneuver. Even if i got each HC in a 2 on 1. This effect is exaggerated at the end of the game, but does apply throughout.
What I think I'm seeing now of flanking, is that instead of it being used as the alternative to a bad match-up (i.e. defensively: okay enemy caught me with bad match-up--often due only to purchase or what I have left after a fight-- but I can still win if I out maneuver him), it really is only useful to turn an even match-up into a win, or an already possitive match-up into a super-rout.
Krypta and I did some tests on STW and Sam Wars. We matched a WM vs NI in holf formation to check length of fight and margin of victory in a head to head fight.
In STW, the WM beat the NI in 1 minute and 22 seconds. The WM had 37 men left, and the NI routed at 12 men.
In SW, the WM beat the NI in 1 minute and 13 seconds. The WM had 41 men left, and the NI routed at 19 men.
To check the flanking we matched two YS vs one WM. The YS are side by side and the WM attacks one which is in hold formation while the other YS, in engage at will, moves forward and makes a couple of turns to flank from behind. The timing starts when the WM makes contact with the blocking YS.
In STW, the two YS beat the WM in about 20 seconds. The blocking YS had 38 men left, and the flanking YS had 49 men left. The WM routed at 24 men.
In SW, the two YS beat the WM in 55 seconds. The blocking YS had 27 men left and the flanking YS had 33 men left. The WM routed at 9 men. It took 20 seconds for the flanking YS to make the maneuver and contact the rear of the WM. In STW, the WM has already been defeated 20 seconds after contact with the blosking YS.
We also tested two no-dachi vs one WM, and two WM vs one HC. In both cases the double unit won easily, but they win faster in STW and by a larger margin than in Sam Wars. This might be due to the faster turning rate of the men in STW which appears to be quite a bit faster than the turning rate in Sam Wars. We don't have any control over the turning rate in Sam Wars.
So Mitch, you are correct that there is a difference between STW and Sam Wars in terms of flanking results. Two units of the same type do win in Sam Wars, but it took longer to make the turning maneuvers and longer to defeat the flanked unit after contact. However, we can see from the WM vs NI tests that the kill rate is about the same for STW and SW, and the front/back ratio of survivors in the YS test is the same at about 80% for STW and SW. The WM did fight down to 9 men in SW, but only 24 men in STW. That may be why it took longer to resolve the combat in the SW test after both YS were in contact with the WM.
1dread1lahll
03-03-2005, 02:46
Question for CBR (or any-one),...where do I find to change the combat stats of the units, and the unit size. In STW it was easy, In VI I dont see it. (for my own use).
It's easy to make stat changes with the Gnome Editor (http://www.mizus.com/Tools/Files/Gnome_UnitBuildProj_Editorv2.0.zip)
Hello all- I have been looking at this mod 4 some time, i just found this new thread... I am getting the feeling that it is just for online play..is this so? Also if i download this Mod i dont really understand what all i need to install, and is this mod done or a work in prog...
online only? - not at all
campaign play works quite nicely
there are instructions in the readme files for how to install - follow them carefully, (it is easy to make a mistake)
it is a work in progress - since the discovery of my better halfs pregnancy and subsequent events, preparing for new arrival, changing jobs, moving house, getting flooded, repairing and recovering from the flood and the Birth right in the middle of the chaos I have had very little time to do anything much with it.
I am now in the position of having an hour (or two at most) every second day to tinker with it
and have begun doing so
it is probable that i may change this mod from an expansion to an overwrite
this will allow me to import all the bifs i need for the game!!!
(no more 3/4 image sets!!!) and the MONGOLS TOO!!!
and there are plans to add-in GEISHA, of course they wont be as powerfull as the original game, but they will still have an influence and add to the flavour
(anyone ever wondered why LK and I made a fresh female strategic piece - their is your answer - I had hoped to add-in Geisha at some time)
this will also allow Puzz's vision of the game and mine (which are slightly different) to co-exist in the one package - another long term goal of all of us ~:grouphug:
Ras' al Gul is currently investigating some aspects of importing the epic bif from Shogun to the Medieval engine
Puzz is looking into which medieval bifs will provide the correct feel for Mongol Units (and i am hoping to slightly expand the Mogols unit mix)
I am looking at adding a Sohei Faction - and looking into which medieval bifs will be suitable for their units
The rebel faction may also gain some unique units (seeing this may become an overwrite i can "recolour" some of the medieval bifs to suit)
I may even add Ashigaru Helmets to some bifs to make other types of Ashi/peasant troops
The TWO hardest things to do
1. a Mongol Tech Tree (with all the required image files)
AND making the Mongols actually Invade - that requires tinkering with province names and moving the Mongol faction into a different slot than the one i chose for Beta5 (Samurai Wars)
(what are the ALL the possible provinces invaded by the mongol horde in medieval?)
SO - any volunteers to investigate/solve those two problems appreciated
oh yes, the longest and most time consuming thing - editing all the names i have into a comprehensive list for kings, heirs, heroes and generals
i have 20MB of text files of names to wade through....
(but i still do not think i have enough data on the Mongols)
i dont expect to get all their personal stats correct, but with ones i dont have good data on i will mix them up into 2/3 good 1/3 awkward
(any help with that appreciate - 1pain1duck did some good research work on a few of the japanese clans personal stats, but left before he finished)
Cheers,
B.
The SP part is great - there's some holes (like Lord Spare Hero Slot) and every now and then a rebellion of Viking Thralls pops up, but I've been having a ball with the campaign portion.
The best part is that many of the heroes are characters from the Org.
ichi :bow:
all the spare hero slots will be filled - they were intentional ~:)
viking thralls???
most odd!!!
i guess those vikings really did get around ~:eek: ~:eek:
- i'll look into that :-)
tho' if i do go into an overwrite they will likely be removed anyway
then again i could change them into a unique unit for bandits...hmm....
(edit or change the bif and edit the unit name)
cheers,
B.
AggonyDuck
04-26-2005, 06:57
Well Barocca I'm still up to continuing where I left... ~;)
HEY
nice to hear from you again :-)
where did we get up to in the lists?
:-)Cheers,
B.
AggonyDuck
04-26-2005, 20:42
I think I had done atleast Takeda, Tokugawa and maybe Uesugi..
finally got all my research and notes together in one place
and yes, Takeda's generals, Uesugi and Togkugawa
:-)
B.
Barocca please don't get the idea that I'm complaining or criticizing, just providing feedback. The mod is awesome and I've been spending a lot of time playing it.
Some of the factions are quite difficult at the start, which is nice.
There are some provinces that state they provide bonuses for some VI troops (mostly on Kyushu IIRC).
I've also noticed that quite early on in the game my faction becomes Christian, as do almost all (if not all) of the AI factions.
What triggers the conversion? I've never been given the option to choose.
Finally, the units that I begin the game with will not accept retraining or merging with units that are created after the game begins. For example, if my faction starts with a unit of Hatamoto and that unit loses 5 guys, then no matter what I do I cannot retrain it, nor will it merge with a depleted Hatamoto unit trained after turn 1.
ichi :bow:
oh and I almost forgot
this last campaign as Shimazu I actually got a desert map to fight on, palm trees and all.
Very cool, but prolly not what you want.
ichi :bow:
Hi Ichi - bug lists are important
that way i can fix things
feel free to keep em coming
the unit-prod file is not my creation (it has been tweaked fro sam clan wars) and it does seem to have one or two minor glitches in it (like the viking thrall rebellions) - they will be fixed
i think thats also where the unit bonus comes from - i'll hunt it down and kill it
as for the retraining failures - i am uncertain what causes that, again i will hunt it down and kill it
the desert map, that would have been awaji?
it is supposed to be there - but i may edit the maps for awaji and remove the palm trees if you think the palm trees should go??
(seeing the differences desert maps make to fatigue i wanted people to be able to practice on a desert map in campaign and give people the option to play them online)
Religion
all factions are either christian or muslim - except the muslim faction is not playable yet, they start the game that way and remain that way
(there is no conversion optionin MTW/VI engine)
- i think i may have made rebel a different religion - will have to check that,
BUT for this incarnation of the mod...welll...I am uncertain what i want to do about religion
seeing this may become an overwrite i can edit one of the religions to "be" something else,
i can make sure all rebel held provinces a different religion to begin - (may even make them Muslim so Mongol has an easier time of it and the player a harder time controlling the population) but most likely make rebels pagans
ADVICE and IDEAS most appreciated on Religion
but unless someone wants to Actually Make a fully functional strategic piece for me (a priest of some kind) i dont plan on have religious units running around the strategic map
i wrote the Iron Man campaign for Warlords (it's a mongol invasion campaign)
now thats is a tough one,
so i like hard starts, they make it more satisfying when you win
i am pleased you like them too
NOW
normally i'd pm 1pain1duck and we'd do this ourselves,
but i want some input here
many of the patron heroes and indeed many of the game heroes are overpowered
so what i am going to do is allow the V&V to remain but reduce all settings except piety and loyalty to a more reasonable level
1pain1duck, Tosa Inu, CE West and FW Seal and myself have identified about 1500 samurai (and counting) who should be in the mod (plus a bunch of Patron Heroes)
naturally thats a HUGE list of men to research accurate stats for ~:eek:
What to do???
Well 1pain1duck and myself are reading as much as we can about them and setting approriate stats,
thats fine for many of the more famous, but not so good for those who merely rate "mentions" in history
SO what i need from people is an estimation
What levels of skill (command, dread, piety, acumen and loyalty) would you expect from a Samurai Leader OR Hero fresh out of Samurai Training???
(we dont want every clan to have generals with 9 command at the beginning)
Seeing these guys are appearing for the first time in "history" their stats would not yet be fully developed,
some (like Date Masamune and Takeda Shigen) would have a natural leadership ability, but certainly not be brilliant tacticians at 15 years old..
my thoughts
Famous Leaders (kings/daimyo's)
2 command : 2 dread : 4 piety : 3 acumen : 4 loyalty (plus a L1 V&V)
Heroes
2 command : 4 dread : 3 piety : 2 acumen : 3 loyalty (plus a L1 V&V)
Villians (there are a few)
2 command : 3 dread : 2 piety : 3 acumen : 1 loyalty (plus a L1 V&V)
Extra special leaders would get a V&V that matches their historical ability
Takeda Shingen could get Fine Leader (+4 morale +2loyalty)
OR Expert Attacker (+2 Command)
for example
Hero's and Villians would get V&V that matches their Heroism or Villiany - as close as i can
This would make assigning titles more important to develop your characters,
and using them in action to advance the skills you want
your valued opinions please
B.
AggonyDuck
04-27-2005, 08:14
Well then I think the stats I made you might have been a bit too high.
If I remember correctly my Takeda had several 3-4 star generals. (based on STW) Also I'd suggest that atleast the famed Daimyo's should have atleast 4 command stars. (those famous as a general of course) This can also add to the toughness of the AI, because usually the AI generals are quite slow to develop. That might have to do with them getting killed easily, when facing the player... :bow:
Also when it comes to (command, dread, piety, acumen and loyalty) I'd advise now to keep them in the levels of 0-4 for a fresh character..This does mean that I might have to redo the earlier famous generals though.
no need to redo them
i'll adjust any values i think are too high as i compile them in
i will let you decide on command stars for the hero's and famous generals,
they die out soon enough
(especially if players use the -green-generals switch)
what i am looking for is an average set of values to assign to people i want in the hero slots
the monumental nature of these lists
each clan needs 40+ Heirs and 80+ Standard Generals to avoid too much repetition in game
Hero's are a bonus, but only appear once per game
(patron names submitted have gone into the Hero's slots)
I dont like seeing the same general commanding more than one army,
nor working for more than one clan at the same time
of the 1500 odd names i have, about 1/2 the clans can draw directly from those lists with ease
about 1/2 cannot
easily a third of the names in those list are not affiliated with clans in the mod.
the lists are not organised.
i have to read them and check which clan the person belongs to
copy them to a text file in that clans name
sort them alphabetically to remove duplicates
cross-check to make sure names are not repeated between clans
this takes about 2 hours per clan (longer as i get more lists finished and thus have to do more cross-checking)
Then i have to count them (40 heirs, 80 generals)
if there are not enough names 1st i have to go to the web and enter each name in the list one at a time and see what i can find,
often i find mention of sons and friends - this helps flesh out the list
Then if there are still not enough i have to re-combine Heir names (most japanese "1st" names have 2 components) to make the list to 40
For the generals i can draw from unaffiliated names from the lists - but those unaffiliated names will run out soon enough
lastly i have some "tribute" name lists
(from an ancient sengoku era RPG game that the players of wrote stories about their adventures)
(from a couple of my favourite samurai movies - cast, characters and crew)
(from books, plays and stories set in Sengoku era)
once those are exhausted i can draw some names from Shogun Total War game - but most of those names actually appear in the clan histories and are already in the mod
Finally i have to make them up....totally fictional generals names....i prefer not to do that if i can - i have 20 MB of lists saved to my hard drive to read through
After all that is finished i will have to format the lists by hand - i am no good at making programs to do those sort of things hint/hint
(i need 4 copies of each name, each copy needs different brackets and exclamation marks around it)
formatting a complete list of 120+ nemas takes about 2 more hours...
then it's on to the next list...
Once i have all the lists formatted the contents have to copied and organised in a set of files that tell the game who belongs to who and what to display when
a task only a stubborn person could stomach
back to the lists...,
B.
Hmm, if you want a quick program to do some text conversion/annotation then it shouldn't take too long to do. Sounds like a good case for using Perl, however since I don't know much about it, it will have to in C/C++ ~:). Could you just give a brief snippet/description of what the list looks like, and then what the output(s) should look like.
many moons ago a relative promised to write such a util in vb and asked me to email him the paramters (he never did , but i still have a copy of the email)
so here they are
(you asked for it)
Possible input types
Single name groups (could have any combination of bracketing, suggest strip brackets when read input)
Imagawa _xzy
Ujizane _xzy
Tokugawa _xzy
OR
Imagawa
Ujizane
Tokugawa
OR
{"Imagawa "}
{"Ujizane "}
{"Tokugawa "}
OR
["Imagawa _xzy"]
["Ujizane _xzy"]
["Tokugawa _xzy"]
wholename groups (possible input)
(could have any combination of bracketing, suggest strip brackets when read input)
Imagawa Yoshimoto _xzy
Imagawa Ujizane _xzy
Tokugawa Ieyasu _xzy
OR
Imagawa Yoshimoto
Imagawa Ujizane
Tokugawa Ieyasu
OR
{"Imagawa Yoshimoto "}
{"Imagawa Ujizane "}
{"Tokugawa Ieyasu "}
OR
["Imagawa Yoshimoto _xzy"]
["Imagawa Ujizane _xzy"]
["Tokugawa Ieyasu _xzy"]
Require output types
Wholename output – 3 lists
FILE ONE (seperated by 2 tabs)
where stw_ is user defined
["stw_Imagawa Yoshimoto"] (seperated by 2 tabs) {"Imagawa Yoshimoto"}
["stw_Imagawa Ujizane"] (seperated by 2 tabs) {"Imagawa Ujizane"}
["stw_Tokugawa Ieyasu"] (seperated by 2 tabs) {"Tokugawa Ieyasu"}
FILE TWO
"stw_Imagawa Yoshimoto"
"stw_Imagawa Ujizane"
"stw_Tokugawa Ieyasu"
FILE THREE (for reference purposes)
Imagawa Yoshimoto
Imagawa Ujizane
Tokugawa Ieyasu
Single name output
FILE ONE (seperated by 2 tabs)
where stw_ is user defined
["stw_Imagawa"] (seperated by 2 tabs) {"Imagawa"}
["stw_Ujizane"] (seperated by 2 tabs) {"Ujizane"}
["stw_Tokugawa"] (seperated by 2 tabs) {"Tokugawa"}
FILE TWO
"stw_Imagawa"
"stw_Ujizane"
"stw_Tokugawa"
FILE THREE (for reference purposes)
Imagawa
Ujizane
Tokugawa
Options
DEFAULT – the list is processed as is,
if it is single names output will be single names,
if it whole names output will be whole names,
any special or unexpected characters should be stripped from the names,
BUT this “stripping option” should be able to be turned off, just in case someone comes up with a bunch of names with weird characters for an unusual mod.
Add Prefix (ie MYMOD_ ie stw_) yes/no
Combine 2 lists into whole names
(combine 2 lists of names into one list of whole names – user selects which list is forename and which is surname)
Split list into surname/forename output
(split a list of whole names into 2 lists)
If you can imagine any other input formats that may be possible please include those as well,
Output should be in notepad format…
~:cheers:
that may be more complicated than required, but it is what he wanted to try and create and will cover all possible inputs/outputs
thanks for considering this
B.
Looks like I might have to get my coding fingers out (considers a game of MP instead). One question so far. What exactly do you mean by _xyz? Is this supposed to represent zero or more trailing names that are to be ignored?
List merging and splitting - arghh - feature creap. What is it that sun tzu says, wait for the army to be 1/3 way across the bridge...
the desert map, that would have been awaji?
it is supposed to be there - but i may edit the maps for awaji and remove the palm trees if you think the palm trees should go??
(seeing the differences desert maps make to fatigue i wanted people to be able to practice on a desert map in campaign and give people the option to play them online)
I think its cool, leave em
ichi :bow:
Sorry for feature creep
his goal was to make th utility re-usable
so just about anyone could use it to make a list of names for a mod without endless hours copy/pasting
it's up to you if thats what you want to do or not,
i am making the lists "pre-stripped" so i dont need the stripping feature
it's the output part and the option of user-designated prefixes (ie mymod_) that is important
the "_xyz"
in this input
Tokugawa Ieyasu _xzy
the "_xyz" is part of original Shoguns naming convention - the "_xyz" told Shogun what to do with the name
thus we need to strip all non-alphabetical (non-A-to-Z) characters from the INPUT lists
also note needs to be taken during stripping of required OUTPUT so we dont accidently "lose" spaces between forename and surname and accidently give ourselves one big jumble name
use the lists provided in my explanation as basic "test lists"
OUTPUT CLARIFICATION
SINGLE NAME OUT PUT
a list of these names
Imagawa Yoshimoto
Imagawa Ujizane
Tokugawa Ieyasu
when run through the generator and output as single names
would return two lists (with all the required brackets - omitted here for clarity sake)
List #1
Imagawa
Imagawa
Tokugawa
List #2
Yoshimoto
Ujizane
Ieyasu
if there is an easy was to add a delete dupe's option that would be handy,
but it needs to be an Option,
what you can do with duplicates is increase the liklihood of a particular name getting used and thus increase the chance of getting a specific heroic king to appear
For my mod though i want to eliminate all duplicate names everywhere...
cheers,
B.
Sorry for not being bothered to read back through this now huge topic from the last time I read but one piece of vital information I would like CBR my old friend is... Is this mod the VI or Rome version mate?
Thankyou in advance old friend.
It's the STWmod for MTW/VI which the RTW v1.2 patch killed interest in from the multiplayer perspective.
As this is in the MTW MP forum this mod is for MTW/VI ~:)
CBR
It's the STWmod for MTW/VI which the RTW v1.2 patch killed interest in from the multiplayer perspective.
? most odd - all i hear are howls of outrage about the RTW 1.2 patch
personally i dont like the insane battle speeds in RTW, and have limited free time on my hands,
so i decided to focus my energies on finishing this mod that is within an engine i enjoy playing - MTW,
rather than join the Sengoku team for RTW.
Not saying i wont play RTW, just i dont enjoy battles being over in 1.2 nana-seconds and am not happy with the load/save bug - i cannot play more than two turns consecutive - i have a real life, a job, a baby
So
I will do my utmost to finish this mod
The mod looks good guys...As im sick of RTW also its look good but thats all......anyway I was playing the mod and i still see 2 many spy,emissary, and such can we find a way to make less of them.I was think if it takes more time to build and cost more this wuld help I know people have said this, but look at it this way..if a spy took longer to build it would be more like you place your order but the network takes time to build.....this should make the spy a better spy with a higher change of doing what it set out to do( like you can just come inot a province and enforce loyalty)........I just never understood how suck a inportant strategic agent has not effect in the game....You should have only 2 or 3 spy and use them well not 100 agents moving on every turn......Even a Emissarie should take years to train......Perhaps even a new kind of Emissarie/Spy.............But i do feel a spy should take time to set up his network to give you any kind of info about General/Province....Also in the setting it would take a syp time to find out info...............
now that is a quite reasonable idea
there are two ways to acomplish this
(and i would like to incorporate both of them)
one is to male them take 2 years/turns to train
the other will require some research, for which i dont have time At the moment, but volunteers are welcome
in the unit prod file there is a whole mishmash of settings that determine which type of leader will build a unit and under what economic/event circumstances that leader will do so
how do those numbers work??
Type of Government/leader
"CATH_REBELS(15), CATH_LOYALISTS(15), CATH_PEASANTS(15), CATH_BANDITS(15), CATH_ZEALOTS(15), ORTH_REBELS(15), ORTH_LOYALISTS(15), ORTH_PEASANTS(15), ORTH_BANDITS(15), ORTH_ZEALOTS(15), CATH_HERETICS(15), ORTH_HERETICS(15), MUS_HERETICS(15)"
(province and factions) FN_24 ID_LANDREG_37
(this seperates the two lists in the file)
Economic/Event Circumstances
"POVERTY_STRICKEN(114), DESPERATE_DEFENCE(76), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST(84.8), CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST(84.8), CATHOLIC_TRADER(106), CATHOLIC_CRUSADER_TRADER(106), CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER(84.8), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE_CRUSADER(127.2), POPE(159), CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE(127.2), CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST(159), ORTHODOX_DEFENSIVE(91.2), ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST(60.8), ORTHODOX_STAGNANT(76), MUSLIM_PEACEFUL(76), MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST(60.8), MUSLIM_DEVOUT(60.8), BARBARIAN_RAIDER(30.4), REBELS(76), CLOSE_TO_SUPPORT_LIMIT(15.2)"
Post info here and I will adjust units accordingly
B.
R'as al Ghul
05-08-2005, 18:12
Update on the Campaign map:
EDIT: New updated pics can be found on page 9.
Far from perfect, but we are making progress.
About the agent production: I seriously doubt that too many agents are being produced. Please provide data.
Making them more expensive, though, is nevertheless an option.
I also plan on looking into the production file. I was able to produce balanced
armies for the Nap mod and since the units in Shogun are more diverse, it should
be possible to achieve a good balance. Me may even work out new formations.
:bow:
R'as
Very nice R'as
Regarding agent overproduction; I haven't seen it seems like that aspect is fine.
After reading in this thread a while back that heroes were overpowered, I went into the game tried a few different factions and scenarios. After looking around I agree that many heroes are overpowered, and suggest upper limits on command (4) and acumen (5) and dread (5) with most heroes being in the 3-4 command rating.
I also think that no title should give more than 2 command, dread, or acumen. Combined this would limit the strongest to command 6, which is still pretty good.
Again thanks to all who are working on this
ichi :bow:
well from my point of view too many agents have always being produced....Im not saying its the mod ( i said i still see as in just like STW)all TW games make to many IMO i just dont like to see alot of agents moving every turn but i can fix it when the mod is 100%...Sorry for the input... Its just me i think who feels that why. I have always like chess so i was thinking that perhaps if you did not have so many you would use them better...End the end its up to the user toplay how heor she likes...The map looks good keep up the good work....
R'as al Ghul
05-09-2005, 11:10
To those who've played the beta campaign:
Have you noticed any overproduction of units?
Which units are preferred by the AI?
So far, it seems that Hatamoto are a bit overproduced.
Apart from that it seems as if Cav and Inf are equally produced.
Any insight would be appreciated.
Concerning the merging of units:
Merging of self-produced units with starting units is only possible
if you play on default unit size. If you play on medium and want to
merge parts of a freshly produced 80 men unit with the remnants of
a depleted starting unit of initially 60 men, it won't work.
R'as
Orda Khan
05-09-2005, 16:05
Kensai
......Orda
Samurai Wars 10b contains a complete set of unit stats for STWmod single player. These stats are pretty well balanced, but the kensai and battlefield ninja might need further adjustment. The large combat upgrades generated by the high command star heroes pretty much destroys the maneuver gameplay and turns the battles into battles of attrition. I think a limit on the command stars would improve the battles. Ichi's idea of 6 max might work out well. As I recall, the MP units stats were balanced at a morale level equivalent to 4 command stars.
The corpses only work partially in SP campaign. I think the two separate sets of unit stats is causing the problem. However, without the two separate sets of units, it's not possible to balance both SP and MP. I haven't been able to find a fix yet.
The corpses only work partially in SP campaign. I think the two separate sets of unit stats is causing the problem. However, without the two separate sets of units, it's not possible to balance both SP and MP. I haven't been able to find a fix yet.It should be possible to combine both sets of stats into one file,
we would simply need to add a prefix to the duplicated unit and then add extra entries into the startpos set of textfiles for unit names
Yari_Ashigaru for Campaign and a duplicate entry with the MP stats could become MP_Yari_Ashigaru - you follow?
what R'as means by balancing is convincing the Campaign AI to build balanced armies,
he is working with the personality and economic balance numbers.
Puzz, could you refresh my memory
how do i turn off and on unit availability for online?
(there is a way to do it - my brain is not working today)
Cheers,
B.
R'as al Ghul
05-10-2005, 09:56
Samurai Wars 10b contains a complete set of unit stats for STWmod single player. These stats are pretty well balanced, but the kensai and battlefield ninja might need further adjustment. [..] I think a limit on the command stars would improve the battles. Ichi's idea of 6 max might work out well. As I recall, the MP units stats were balanced at a morale level equivalent to 4 command stars.
what R'as means by balancing is convincing the Campaign AI to build balanced armies,
he is working with the personality and economic balance numbers.
Sorry for the confusion, Puzz3D.
barocca is right, I don't want to change what you and others have achieved
after countless hours of work. That would be absolutely pointless.
I merely wish to teach the AI to produce these fine units in a sensible way.
By altering column 18 Unit class for example.
The AI has no idea what a yari_Sam is, it needs to read certain values from the unit_prod to determine if that unit is suitable for certain tasks. If for example the enemy is known to have a lot of cav, then it should produce spears to counter that. If the unit class isn't correctly defined, it most probably won't do that but buy Kensai instead.
:bow:
Edit: I just noticed that all the STW units appear double with slightly different values in your STW_10_unit_prod.txt. What's the reason behind this?
Also, the Yari Ashi has a moral bonus of 4 (same as monks) in column 19. Is it intentional?
There are two sets of units in STW_10_unit_prod.txt. The first set is for MP, and the second set is for SP.
Column 50, Faction Association Labels, is a secondardy filter that requires the building list to be checked for who can build what unit types. In column 50, I put "No_Faction" to have the unit show up only in MP.
The SP yari ashigaru has morale -4, and the SP warrior monk has morale 6.
The MP yari ashigaru has morale 2, and the MP warrior monk has morale 10.
That's the problem between SP and MP. Generals always have zero command stars in MP. The MP units are generally +4 morale (4 command stars) over the SP units, but for some units a further 2 point adjustment was needed based on MP battletests.
R'as al Ghul
05-10-2005, 13:48
The SP yari ashigaru has morale -4, and the SP warrior monk has morale 6.
The MP yari ashigaru has morale 2, and the MP warrior monk has morale 10.
Yes, as a base value. But the morale bonus (c 19) is added to this so
that the values are 0 and 10 for SP, and 6 and 14 for MP.
Correct? Or is col. 19 doing something else?
I don't know how the 4 got into column 19, but a long time ago one of the devs said the column wasn't used. We would have noticed a big bonus like that in the testing. I don't think it's used.
Razor1952
05-11-2005, 02:19
Back to playing STW:MI and MTW:Vi and never played Barocca's Shogun total war Mod for MTW:VI before and really enjoying it, but a few questions if you please.
1. I downloaded Samurai_wars2fix.exe but it didn't install, I have been reading these forums but havn't really understood what this extra file does over Barocca's STW for MTw:Vi beta5 mod ? I also can't find a new download link now that works for this to retry it.
2. Does the sound conversion still work? and how do I get it, the previous links I tried didn't work.
Pretty awesome work and great challenging gameplay.
BTW I had quite a few CTD is that normal for this mod.?
You can find links and information in this thread: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=41796
The installer is the original mod from Barocca plus maps and updated unitstats (both for MP and SP) and it has more or less fixed the missing dead bodies problem too.
CBR
Back to playing STW:MI and MTW:Vi and never played Barocca's Shogun total war Mod for MTW:VI before and really enjoying it, but a few questions if you please.
1. I downloaded Samurai_wars2fix.exe but it didn't install, I have been reading these forums but havn't really understood what this extra file does over Barocca's STW for MTw:Vi beta5 mod ? I also can't find a new download link now that works for this to retry it.
2. Does the sound conversion still work? and how do I get it, the previous links I tried didn't work.
The STWmod should be very stable, and doesn't cause CTD's as far as I kow. Samurai_wars2fix.exe is just an installer version of STWmod_beta5. You would still need to install Samurai Wars 10b to have the latest unit stats. Best way to install is over an unmodified version of MTW/VI v2.01:
1. unzip STWmod_beta5 to a temp folder using paths so that you get the folder tree.
2. select all the files and folders in that temp folder and copy them to your main game folder
3. unzip SamuraiWars_10b to a temp folder using paths so that you get the folder tree.
4. select all the files and folders in that temp folder and copy them to your main game folder.
5 run STWmod.bat and swap to the STWmod stats with the 'B" option.
6. use STWmod.bat 'A' option to swap back to MTW/VI stats to play a regular game.
7. always exit the game when swapping stat
The Sound utility works if you have either STW or WE/MI installed. The install is tricky, but there is a readme included.
STWsound (http://www.totalwar.org/tosa/STW_Mod_Sound.zip)
Razor1952
05-12-2005, 03:10
Thanks for the replies,
Couldn't get the sound bat files to work properly but I just copied the sound form stw to mtw and renamed some of the music files to the mtw equivalents and seems to work well. I don't care about switching back to mtw:vi original.
I've noticed fighting some battles against high star opposition generals that I get not only beaten but completely whipped. eg. 9 star versus my 7 star general , my same grade yari samurai got completely wiped out and the bad guys got only 1 or 2 casualties , a huge difference. My monks get completlely wiped by yari samurai. Seems to me unbalanced for high star generals. Perhaps that adds to the strategy ? maybe it could be adjusted but I have no idea how.
Iga province gives bonus to Saxon huscarles! adjacent province gives bonus to horsemen!
Still an awesome mod and very highly recommended for those pining for shogun.
Two command stars advantage won't cause a YS to beat a WM. It would take a 6 command star advantage to do that, but you have to look at the vices and virtues of the general as well since they can have a big effect on combat strength. The YS would need +6 combat points to beat a WM.
.......Iga province gives bonus to Saxon huscarles! adjacent province gives bonus to horsemen!
Still an awesome mod and very highly recommended for those pining for shogun.
Say Puzz,
i've seen a few of these oddities reported
did you make any changes to build_prod?
or are they just minor glitches?
(i should be able to iron them out - i am making a list of bugs)
cheers,
B.
i am down to the last phase of sorting my research
(still about 100 hours to go - but 200 hours down and running low on "resources")
as i "pan out" on each clan i will be making requests for help in the Monastary forum
currently seeking help on Ryuzoji
(check Monastary Forum) (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=16)
cheers,
B.
I changed 3 files: STW_10_unit_prod.txt, Projectilestats.txt and Deadpage coords.txt.
Razor1952
05-13-2005, 00:25
I changed to normal difficulty as even with bonuses 1k troops getting whipped by 100 bad guys seemed unrealistic
Now normal difficulty, huge units
Just played a battle with 3 star vs 3star gens, they had a unit of sam archers with +1 armour and +1 weapons. This unit defeated my 2 units of YS(one with +1 armour),
overall I had 2 units Yari cavalry(one with +1 armour), 2 YS , 1 Sam archers(base), 2 Kensai and 1 hatamoto, I only just defeated across a bridge by outflanking with Yari Cav from across the other bridge. they had 1 unit of sam archers(upgraded +4 morale) and 2 units of Hatamoto.
I don't remember such a huge difference in battles when playing against somewhat upgraded troops.
BTW Kensai seem a waste of time, they just get stuck by an arrow and poof there goes 2k koku.
Perhaps I shouldn't be playing at huge units?
The units were balanced for normal size of 60 men.
In custom battle on normal unit size and flat ground, I just tried one SA +1w+1a against two YS one of which had +1a. The SA lost killing 50 YS and loosing 45 men. A single SA +1w+1a is going to beat a single YS with no upgrades because they are equal in combat power and the SA has arrows with which to weaken the YS.
If the ground isn't flat, the unit on the higher ground gets a combat and morale bonus. Also, you have to check the vices and virtues of generals in the campaign because V&V's have a large effect on the combat power of the units. There were no V&V's in STW.
The kensai has very good armor, but you should keep the kensai away from enemy ranged units. Also, huge unit size means more arrows being shot at the lone kensai than with normal unit size. The kensai may need some additional balancing as might the battlefield ninja and hatamoto because of the way small sized units interact with the battlefield upgrade system.
Razor1952
05-13-2005, 23:23
Thanks Puzz,
I guess its a question of taste to some degree, but in original STW a YS would usually see off 1 unit of SA.
I don't think upgrades had such a drastic effect in original STW. Personally I think units should be able to be upgraded but not to the extent here. Which suggests maybe all units base should be stronger so upgrades are relatively weaker.
So for example 1 unit Ashigaru upraded +3w and +3 a should just match vanilla YS.
SA on the other hand are archers, and should not be able to compete with YS regardless in open combat. They need protection by infantry period.
Just my $0.02.
On the question of multiple factions and expanded build tree, one thing I loved about original STW was the simplicity, you could only build in 1 or 2 provinces at any one turn which made it quite challenging. In an attempt to make better strategy both MTW and RTW I think erred by adding unnecessary complexity which didn't really add a new dimension to strategy only tended to make it tedious.( ie. build everything everwhere). I realize its a question for the mod maker to answer these questions I just put my humble view to be considered.
So for feedback STW for MTW:VI I think has quite a good build tree but still I would prefer a bigger squeeze on $'s, making unit build structures much more expensive. would be one way I'd go. relative unit costs and upkeep seem quite balanced, mercenaries are well thought out.
Another question regards the sound, I wonder if its a breach of the game license to take the sound from STW , change the file names to MTW equivalents and release it as an addon for the mod? Having the stw sound adds a lot to the mod I think.
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