Phalanx units ruin the challenge of siege/city defenses

[Jambo]

This may seem a little controversial to some, but I reckon phalanx units really ruin the challenge of the siege and city aspects of this game. It's almost impossible to lose a city to the AI when you're defending it with phalanx units. Simply align them in the city plaza at strategic choke points and wait for the AI to launch itself on the units in whatever random and inane order it chooses. I will sometimes lose as little as 1000 when defending cities with phalanx units. I'm not even talking about the top phalanxes either, simply militia hoplites or levy pikemen will do.

Granted, this is as much to do with the strategy the AI employs for city assaults as it is for the power of a phalanx in tight choke spots. The AI fails to use archers properly once inside the city - instead of firing on stationary units like phalanxes, it will use all archers and skirmishers in melee to get to the city plaza.. In fact, as soon as a city wall is breached or once inside a city, all AI units do is charge in an ill-thought-out manner to the city plaza.

The trouble is, trying to find a suitable solution to keeping the game challenging when using a nation with phalanx units? In the field I'm aware phalanx units are far more susceptible and major nerfing will impact on this part too much. Does anyone have any ideas?

So far, what I've decided to do is try reducing the "mass" of phalanx units a little (by 0.2), so that in city fights there will be a greater chance that a massed mob of attackers can disrupt their formations a little more.

[BadBreath]

This may seem a little controversial to some, but I reckon phalanx units really ruin the challenge of the siege and city aspects of this game. It's almost impossible to lose a city to the AI when you're defending it with phalanx units. Simply align them in the city plaza at strategic choke points and wait for the AI to launch itself on the units in whatever random and inane order it chooses.

Perhaps you should aim to stop the attackers at the wall. Personally I find that much more gratifying.

BB

[Shadar]

You wouldn't believe the times i've been slaughtered simply because i had to fall upon my phalanx in the town. Simply put, the best way to counter the said "overpoweredness" of Phalanx units would be to NOT OVERLAP THE UNITS IN THE CITY to the point where you got multiple units where you normally fit 1!! Once you start overlapping the units, they actually stand a better chance and withstand shocks a lot better because of the mass of troops within that square. Once you put them into non-overlapping layers, i.e. one in front of another, or one beside another, you'll find that phalanx units go down a lot quicker simply because the huge mass of assaulting troops pushing in on the phalanx shall (and will) eventally shatter the phalanx formation and leave the troops easy prey for melee units.

[Browning]

Isn't overlapping actually a cheating? Could units of that era be overlapped IRL?

[Watchman]

IRL ? I highly doubt it. Phalanxes were already in about as close order as possible to get the maximum "pike wall" effect; trying to squeeze them tighter wouldhave been counter-productive to say in the least.

Goes conditionally for all other troops too, mind you. Crowd too many people into too small an area, and not only will they become unable to fight but very possibly start suffocating each other to death in the press... The Romans were pretty insistent upon maintaining proper rank and file for a reason. The barbarian hordes that tended to end up crowding against the lines in huge confused masses on the whole didn't fare too well.

[SpencerH]

I havent had an enemy get past the walls so its a little hard to say whether phalanx in human hands are overpowered.

[Jambo]

Yes, that sounds about right Spencer, and along with the loadgame issue it's the reason I actually play without walls. For non-phalanx factions this gives the human player an increased challenge in defending their cities. However, for factions with phalanx units I've found it just as easy to defend the cities without any walls as I did with them. Simply place them in a street or circled around the entrance to the town plaza and nothing gets through - and I'm not talking about the top end phalanx units, I'm simply referring to militia hoplites !

Anyway, I'm hoping that my minor nerf to the mass of phalanx units should make them individually more susceptible to massed infantry mobs disrupting their formation a little.

[Shadar]

Jambo...

a single phalanx unit, especially a weak phalanx unit, will not hold enemy troops for long. In my experience, it didn't even take a minute before the first weak phalanx unit was smashed, split in the middle and about to rout. Simply put, a weak phalanx unit will have a lot of difficulty killing, and will in fact knock down troops as much as they kill.

The fact is, if theres enough troops under the control of the enemy, the phalanx simply can't cope and can't push them out - there gets to a point when theres so many troops that the phalanx can't push them back anymore and units squeeze all the way into the phalanx and start destroying the phalanx soldiers once they draw their swords. OR, the phalanx simply bulges back and eventually splits in half.

To make your life harder, if you're going to fight with walls, never get higher than wooden walls because the AI can deal with the wooden walls - but they don't stand a chance fighting stone walls and will be slaughtered long before they get into your city.

[TF923]

I defended a stone-walled city yesterday with only 4 units against a full stack of Numidians. The city had 2 principes, a town watch and one roman archers.

The AI brought two ladders, a siege tower and a ram. The ram of course burst into flames with the first volley of fire arrows. The principes stood at the top of each of the ladders, while the town watch defended their flank against the seige tower. It was a great battle and I've never seen a principes unit kill so many enemies in one battle before. (Usually it's the archers getting most of the kills.)

So, does this mean principes should also be nerfed? No, I think the AI just needs better city assault tactics. If it were me attacking, I would have used up all my arrows first before sending my men up the walls. I would have seen that the town watch was outclassed defending the flank and instead of continuing to send all my troops up the ladder to certain death against the principes, I would have switched them to go up the siege tower instead.

But the AI didn't do that. It apparently valued the speed of the ladder route over the safety of using a siege tower that was at an undefended section of the wall, ignoring the fact that a principes unit at the top of a ladder is pretty much impregnable. So I see your point--even at the walls, the AI is valuing a direct assault over sound flanking maneuvres. In the open field, the AI knows how to flank, but against a city, it seems like it forgets everything that it normally does in an open field battle.

[cunobelinus]

that has annoyed me to but wen ur defending it does help if u block the entrance with some phalanxs u ussually win a one a 25 to 1 battle with two groups of phalanx men

[Craterus]

well of course, not mmuch can get past a phalanx if it's deep enough to absorb any charge..

[Beefy]

ITS so Easy to defend with phalanx's. even when the AI army has a spy and opens the gates. they just pile in the front gate and you just whack all your pikeunits infront of the gate and hey pretso they all rout, famous battle, go away you mumma's boys!

[The Stranger]

You wouldn't believe the times i've been slaughtered simply because i had to fall upon my phalanx in the town. Simply put, the best way to counter the said "overpoweredness" of Phalanx units would be to NOT OVERLAP THE UNITS IN THE CITY to the point where you got multiple units where you normally fit 1!! Once you start overlapping the units, they actually stand a better chance and withstand shocks a lot better because of the mass of troops within that square. Once you put them into non-overlapping layers, i.e. one in front of another, or one beside another, you'll find that phalanx units go down a lot quicker simply because the huge mass of assaulting troops pushing in on the phalanx shall (and will) eventally shatter the phalanx formation and leave the troops easy prey for melee units.

that is what i always do, overlapping is pretty unfair. i always put them behind or beside each other

[Browning]

Yesterday I was defending the gate of Tylis with an inexperienced Merc. Hoplite unit against some rushing Thracian forces (I was experiencing the "leave all equipment and storm through the gate" bug). The general's guard and militia cavalry got first to my hoplites and... broke through them after like 1 minute of bloody fight. Too bad for Thracians that:
1. Their general died in the progress
2. Their reinforcements jammed the area in front of the gate and were beeing slaughtered by the Machine Guns on my gate.

So when I reinforced the now routing hoplites with a fresh Hastati and a half Equites (stupid me), the entire Thracian Army - still quite numerous and dangerous daresay - routed.


Why I say "stupid me": I sweared not to abuse the AI's stupidity, and I am sure the Tylis should fall after the Hoplites routed.

But I was surprised how fast they did.

Also, I was surprised that no napalm was thrown from the walls... Medium Walls...

[Husar]

Well, if you overlap phalanxes, then it´s your own fault.
I once had a Brutii army attack my city with onagers, the shot a hole into my walls and before my phalanxes(militia IIRC) could set up correctly, they got overrun by masses of romans, especially the charge of their general and their hordes of legionary cav broke the phalanx formation easily. sometimes the AI simply overwhelms your phalanx, especially with charging heavy cav. Didn´t play Rome that much lately though, so I don´t know how much heavy cav they field in 1.2.

[Dude_uk]

I agree the the problem isn't that the human player can do this, but more that the AI can not counter it. It is a shame that sieges are so nerfed given that nearly every major engagement is a siege!

In any event there should be some kind of penalty if a walled city is breached, but the attack repulsed (i.e. population loss, buldings damaged and detroyed). This at least makes the player suffer for thier advantage!

[Jambo]

Yes Dude UK, indeed the problem is that the AI has no idea how to deal with well positioned "parked" phalanxes inside a city. Quite often, one well-placed phalanx unit is enough to repel an entire attacking AI army without sustaining major casualties. On defence, the AI never places their phalanxes in the most strategic areas, so the problem is never the same for the human attacking a city.

So far I've bveen quite encouraged by the effect my minor nerf to the mass of phalanx units is having. Now, large masses of infantry and cavalry can disrupt the formation of solitary phalanx units enough to at least cause them some damage.

[The Stranger]

Well, if you overlap phalanxes, then it´s your own fault.
I once had a Brutii army attack my city with onagers, the shot a hole into my walls and before my phalanxes(militia IIRC) could set up correctly, they got overrun by masses of romans, especially the charge of their general and their hordes of legionary cav broke the phalanx formation easily. sometimes the AI simply overwhelms your phalanx, especially with charging heavy cav. Didn´t play Rome that much lately though, so I don´t know how much heavy cav they field in 1.2.


eh i think you should set up your hoplites before you push "start battle" i think it was meant for that. ~;)

[The Stranger]

I agree the the problem isn't that the human player can do this, but more that the AI can not counter it. It is a shame that sieges are so nerfed given that nearly every major engagement is a siege!

In any event there should be some kind of penalty if a walled city is breached, but the attack repulsed (i.e. population loss, buldings damaged and detroyed). This at least makes the player suffer for thier advantage!

if battles take to long, buildings get damaged, atleast in auto-resolve. but i agree that there should be a penalty. like the total stop of trade and farm income. maybe population loss if some walls are captured, and a happiness penalty cause people, lost faith in the goverment, this should also contineu after the siege. and the attackers should also loose men