View Full Version : Can someone explain German Law to me?
Kaiser of Arabia
06-19-2005, 02:10
http://ingeb.org/garb/SA2002.html
I was reading that, and to me it seems like Germany in modern times is practicing a similar censorship as it did 65 years ago. Is it just me or is this political discrimination and the silencing of all opposition to Gerhard Schroeder and his Social Democrats? Wouldn't it be disallowing the youth to form their own opinion if you block them by seeing all sides of the story? Is it just me or do they seem to be silencing right wing extremism only, as in it's wrong to be a fascist, but it's ok to be a communist or left-wing radical anarchist? I'm so very confused! Is any of this true? Can some of our German comrades explain this to me?
DemonArchangel
06-19-2005, 02:43
Good god, i'm leaving for Germany for my summer job on Monday. The last thing I need is racist idiots giving me shit over there.
Kaiser of Arabia
06-19-2005, 02:47
I'm leaving Saturday. Looks like I won't be coming back for a very long time.
It looks to me like Germany is going down the path that it took 70 years ago. And unless someone steps in and ends such censorship, history will repeat itself. Or at least, that is what I fear.
Kaiser of Arabia
06-19-2005, 03:14
wow what a great post by JAG!
as in it's wrong to be a fascist, but it's ok to be a communist or left-wing radical anarchist?
Okay I have two requests: 1) Please stop throwing left-wing ideologies around like they're all the same. Because fact is we (anarchists) don't really like communists (even the syndicalists don't) why? They believe in big government, and we believe in no government. They are authoritarians, we are individualists.
2) Explain to me how a Social Democrat government (or any government) would say its okay to support anarchists? I mean we are their greatest enemy, we want to end them.
Ahh anarchists fools and idiots all.
Governemnt is for sheep, only when we throw off represenion can we thrive in science and the arts.
Kaiser of Arabia
06-19-2005, 05:47
2) Explain to me how a Social Democrat government (or any government) would say its okay to support anarchists? I mean we are their greatest enemy, we want to end them.
Neither parties are illegal, yet fascist and nazi parties are.
Ser Clegane
06-19-2005, 07:40
To answer your question - yes, spreading nazi-propaganda and glorification of the Third Reich is indeed not allowed here in Germany.
BTW, fascist parties in general are not banned. Political parties whose goal is the destruction of the democratic society have been banned (and that happened to right-wing and left-wing extremist political parties in the past)
So if you come here I would strongly suggest to leave any swastika-badges at home.
Personally, I think that our country will survive should some "tourists" decide not to visit based on the ban of nazi-glorification...
PanzerJaeger
06-19-2005, 07:50
I fear you'll be disappointed over there Caps.. the fascists are really kind of pathetic in Europe. Dont get your hopes up for any discussion of power politics or ideology. Theyre all racists- and thats as deep as it gets. Hitler is probably turning in his grave.. :shrug:
doc_bean
06-19-2005, 10:11
Freedom of speech or religion is not guaranteed by (constitutional) law in (most of) Europe. That's why we can ban parties that seek the destruction of society, can ban neo-nazi propaganda and can make life very hard for scientologists.
For God's sake, don't start talking to a German about the glory of the Third Reich, people don't like talking about that.
bmolsson
06-19-2005, 10:34
Freedom of speech or religion is not guaranteed by (constitutional) law in (most of) Europe. That's why we can ban parties that seek the destruction of society, can ban neo-nazi propaganda and can make life very hard for scientologists.
It's more practical to stop insurgents before everyone know who they are, hence some of the limitations in freedom of speech..... ~;)
Tribesman
06-19-2005, 11:50
I fear you'll be disappointed over there Caps.. the fascists are really kind of pathetic in Europe. Dont get your hopes up for any discussion of power politics or ideology. Theyre all racists- and thats as deep as it gets. Hitler is probably turning in his grave..
oh the decline of modern standards , poor old Hitler would be so dissapointed ~:confused:
Lets get back to some real deep rooted fascism with power politics . :help:
The_Doctor
06-19-2005, 13:11
If you go to Germany:
DO NOT TALK ABOUT THE WAR
Seriously, my nan is German and in my home we do not watch WW2 or even WW1 history programs because she will start moaning about it. They we get the same stories again and again.
There is "evil" Jews trying to pay with dresses instead of money. The near death experience during an air raid. The waving an RAF pilot by mistake. Getting stuck in barbed wire during an air raid. Shouting at German troops that where retreating though the town she lived in. And finally showing American troops where some supplies where hidden.
@Kaiser, why are you called Kaiser and have WW2 stuff, it does not make sense.
Don Corleone
06-19-2005, 13:34
What's in his signature long predates WWII, it's an Iron Cross, no more indicative of WWII in particular than a Victoria's cross.
That being said, Kaiser, honestly, the Germans suffered under the Nazi party more than anyone. Do you really find it surprising that they have taken steps to see to it that they never gain a foothold there again? Regardless of how repugnant you or I find Stalinism, the fact that it is not explicitly banned IS NOT a reason for advocating that modern Germany should expose itself to Nazi ideology more. You know, sometimes, you really walk a fine line my friend...
The_Doctor
06-19-2005, 14:30
What's in his signature long predates WWII, it's an Iron Cross, no more indicative of WWII in particular than a Victoria's cross.
I know that, I mean the Panzers (ok, so Germany did have tanks at the end of WW1) and D-day stuff.
How old is your nan, Martinus?
Neither me, nor my parents(my father is dutch, born in 1945, just after the war) have a problem talking about the war. I don´t know about my grandma, never talked to her about it, but my mum knew some stories from her. In school we talked about WW2 a lot, they really want to make sure it won´t happen again. ~;)
If I for one, watch a film about WW2, I have no problem seeing the Nazis lose, i just can´t identify myself with them.
The BPjM, the guys who made this song illegal, are usually in the news for censoring brutal games so they can´t be displayed and sold publicly(you need to show your ID-card).
From reading their reasons, I´d say this guy is simply a Nazi, the extracts they show are glorifying Hitler, so 'I don´t really see a problem.
BTW: If you like swastikas, go to India, preferably visit something religious, from what I know, they represent the wheel of life there and are a common religious symbol, Hitler just copied them(seen a lot of them in a documentary lately). ~;) ~D
The_Doctor
06-19-2005, 16:17
How old is your nan, Martinus?
She is 86. She is from North Rhine-Westphalia, which I assume is the same place you are from.
When she sees something about WW2, she says stuff like "why do they always bring it up?", "Why do they keep going on about it?". She also hates Churchill for some reason.
Hmm, I´d guess the main difference is that she lived during the war, while I am just a 19-year old who never experienced a war so far.
Kaiser of Arabia
06-19-2005, 19:46
To answer your question - yes, spreading nazi-propaganda and glorification of the Third Reich is indeed not allowed here in Germany.
BTW, fascist parties in general are not banned. Political parties whose goal is the destruction of the democratic society have been banned (and that happened to right-wing and left-wing extremist political parties in the past)
So if you come here I would strongly suggest to leave any swastika-badges at home.
Personally, I think that our country will survive should some "tourists" decide not to visit based on the ban of nazi-glorification...
Ok, that clears it up a lot. Thanks Ser.
I wasn't saying that because I'm a nazi, being as I'm not a nazi, just an extreme right wing fascist who beleives that the government should do what is best for the people, even if it is not the will of the people. But, I do get called a nazi quite alot, so yeah, I was just really confused. Because, the banning of political parties is the same thing that happenened 70 years ago, and I was just thinking that history would repeat itself. At least it's not just against right-wingers.
'sides I'm more of a Second Reichist myself (hence the name KAISER).
BTW the Iron Cross was instituted in 1813.
Kaiser of Arabia
06-19-2005, 19:52
Oh btw i dont want this to turn into a debate on German law and if its good or not, I just needed some help grasping it. It seemed kind of freaky to me. So yeah, the point of the thread has been accomplished.
BTW I wont get in trouble for reading von Clauschwitz (sp) or Guderian or Neitchze over there will I?
Tribesman
06-19-2005, 19:52
"why do they always bring it up?", "Why do they keep going on about it?".
People who have been through shit don't want to listen to people who havn't been through it talking about what it was really like because they don't have a clue what it was like , and those that know what it was like are trying to bury it at the back of their minds , ignore the nightmares and try and return to normality .
Its that simple .
She also hates Churchill for some reason.
Now that sounds like my wifes Grandmother , but she went so far as to throw Winston out of the house and exclude him from any future social gatherings because he was "a drunken ass" or was it arse ? It is so hard to tell with these English(though she is Manx) accents ~:cheers:
Tribesman
06-19-2005, 20:04
I wasn't saying that because I'm a nazi, being as I'm not a nazi, just an extreme right wing fascist who beleives that the government should do what is best for the people, even if it is not the will of the people. But, I do get called a nazi quite alot, so yeah, I was just really confused
yeah but no but what if but and then but I am not but I am but not really but really I am but that doesn't matter 'cos I heard that shelly is a slag anyway .
So whats it going to be Capo ? Do you agree with the government being completely unrepresentative of the people that it governs ?
Bloody hell , they are locking chauffeurs up in Guantanamo because they may have strange ideas , yet you are walking free ~D ~D ~D
Oh btw i dont want this to turn into a debate on German law and if its good or not, I just needed some help grasping it. It seemed kind of freaky to me. So yeah, the point of the thread has been accomplished.
BTW I wont get in trouble for reading von Clauschwitz (sp) or Guderian or Neitchze over there will I?
Why do you need help grasping it? It's exactly the type of law you claim you want. It protects the people, even if it annoys some of them (like you).
It's ironic you claim to want the state to protect the people above their rights, then moan when you realise you might not be able to exercise your rights.
BTW I wont get in trouble for reading von Clauschwitz (sp) or Guderian or Neitchze over there will I?
Well, I don´t know Clausewitz, but I know that some clanmates with more historical knowledge got a bit upset when somebody else had "Clausewitz" as a nickname. ~D
PanzerJaeger
06-19-2005, 20:39
Why do you need help grasping it? It's exactly the type of law you claim you want. It protects the people, even if it annoys some of them (like you).
It's ironic you claim to want the state to protect the people above their rights, then moan when you realise you might not be able to exercise your rights.
He most likely doesnt see the law as helping the people.
Why do you need help grasping it? It's exactly the type of law you claim you want. It protects the people, even if it annoys some of them (like you).
This sounds so negative, tell me about any law that doesn´t annoy some of the people.
The_Doctor
06-19-2005, 22:40
About the Iron Cross, look at the symbol of my local council (Sefton)
http://www.angelsolutions.co.uk/images/portfolio/clients/sefton-lea-logo.gif
Maybe you could have that instead. ~D
Kaiser of Arabia
06-20-2005, 01:40
Well, I don´t know Clausewitz, but I know that some clanmates with more historical knowledge got a bit upset when somebody else had "Clausewitz" as a nickname. ~D
Napoleonic Prussian Commander, wrote Of War
Kaiser of Arabia
06-20-2005, 01:47
I wasn't saying that because I'm a nazi, being as I'm not a nazi, just an extreme right wing fascist who beleives that the government should do what is best for the people, even if it is not the will of the people. But, I do get called a nazi quite alot, so yeah, I was just really confused
yeah but no but what if but and then but I am not but I am but not really but really I am but that doesn't matter 'cos I heard that shelly is a slag anyway .
So whats it going to be Capo ? Do you agree with the government being completely unrepresentative of the people that it governs ?
Bloody hell , they are locking chauffeurs up in Guantanamo because they may have strange ideas , yet you are walking free ~D ~D ~D
You see, whereas the people I want rid of are wrong, I am right. ~:cheers: You see, whereas the people that need to go are totally against the advancement of myself and my fellow Americans, I am 100% for it. Where the people I want gone are evil, I am not. Savvy? ~:)
Don Corleone
06-20-2005, 01:47
Kaiser,
I've got a CRAZY idea :dizzy2: Why don't you go over, enjoy yourself, but leave pre-conceived notions at home and just absorb? If upon the duration of your stay, you realize that yes, in fact, you were right all along and could have taught the Germans a thing or two about their political history, and need for a benevolent fascist, save it for the very last night. And I STRONGLY urge you use a system where the benevolence is more clear than it was then under Bismarck or Hitler. Singapore is probably your best bet, but even there, you're exposing yourself to some pretty heavy counter-arguments.
Anyway, have a blast. Demon & you over there... .look out my Teutonic friends, we're about to fight our 3rd war in 100 years! :charge: Just kidding. ~:)
Kaiser of Arabia
06-20-2005, 01:50
I'm stocking up on the explosive chickens for the final epic battle between me and demon as we speak ~:)
Yeah, Germany does have some pretty steep laws against anything that could be tied to Nazism. I read an article a while ago about some German prince who performed the ol' straight arm salute when in an argument with some employee at an airport. He was arrested for it.
Also, Landser, skinhead and national socialist rock band, were arrested a few years ago, I think. They are from Germany, but because of the strict laws in place, they were forced to produce their music in Poland. How odd is that?
Franconicus
06-20-2005, 07:28
Napoleonic Prussian Commander, wrote Of War
Clausewitz is no problem I read parts of it. :book:
This is forbitten:
Denying that the Holocaust happened
Sedition
Incitement to crime or violence
Symbols that were used by Fascism
Offending People
So, dear Kaiser, go to Germany without any concerns. Look what happened here and maybe you change your mind about fashism.
By the way, did you ever read "The SS State" by Eugen Kogon? You should!
Productivity
06-20-2005, 09:05
Is it just me or do they seem to be silencing right wing extremism only, as in it's wrong to be a fascist, but it's ok to be a communist or left-wing radical anarchist?
At a guess I would put it down to the fact that fascism caused one of the most tragic and shameful events in Germany's history, whereas communism did not. Nothing wrong with them wanting to avoid it happening again.
Franconicus
06-20-2005, 09:24
At a guess I would put it down to the fact that fascism caused one of the most tragic and shameful events in Germany's history, whereas communism did not. Nothing wrong with them wanting to avoid it happening again.
Well, in fact in German history you find a more than enough communism. Do you want to discuss the difference between comm and fasc? ~:cool:
In Germany communistic parties are forbitten as well if they are against the constitution.
Productivity
06-20-2005, 09:32
Well, in fact in German history you find a more than enough communism. Do you want to discuss the difference between comm and fasc? ~:cool:
I may find more than enough, but will it have caused anywhere near the amount of tragedy as fascism has? I know very well teh difference between them, but I will admit german history is not my strong point, and if you can point out a time when a german communist did as much damage as Hitler, then I will stand corrected.
Kaiser of Arabia
06-20-2005, 15:39
At a guess I would put it down to the fact that fascism caused one of the most tragic and shameful events in Germany's history, whereas communism did not. Nothing wrong with them wanting to avoid it happening again.
Then again Communism caused many of the saddest events in the Worlds history, to date claiming over 100 million lives. And National Socialism is not fascism.
Franconicus
06-20-2005, 16:26
I may find more than enough, but will it have caused anywhere near the amount of tragedy as fascism has? I know very well teh difference between them, but I will admit german history is not my strong point, and if you can point out a time when a german communist did as much damage as Hitler, then I will stand corrected.
Alright, here a short trip through German history.
You know that Marx and Engels were Germans, like many other Socialists. At the end of WW1 there were many rebellions because people were tired of war and hungry. In Munich they chased the king away and had a Communist Republic. And they killed some people there. Did not last long. So called Whites came and took the town. The first days they killed every Red they could get.
Between the wars communism was quiet strong. They collected up to 30% of the votes. Together with hte votes for the Nazis this blocked the German parliament. And there was a lot of fighting in the streets. When the Nazis took the power communists either were arrested, put into KZ and killed or went into resistance or left the country. Nazis made a lot of propaganda against communism.
After WW2 the Soviets established a communist country in their zone. It lasted 40 years and was a dictatorship.
Today neither communism nor Nazis have a real chance in Germany.
And National Socialism is not fascism.
Kaiser, forget your sophistry. Bad is bad! If you do not believe you can see it when you visit Germany. When you return, please tell us what you found here
Kaiser of Arabia
06-20-2005, 19:20
Alright, here a short trip through German history.
You know that Marx and Engels were Germans, like many other Socialists. At the end of WW1 there were many rebellions because people were tired of war and hungry. In Munich they chased the king away and had a Communist Republic. And they killed some people there. Did not last long. So called Whites came and took the town. The first days they killed every Red they could get.
Between the wars communism was quiet strong. They collected up to 30% of the votes. Together with hte votes for the Nazis this blocked the German parliament. And there was a lot of fighting in the streets. When the Nazis took the power communists either were arrested, put into KZ and killed or went into resistance or left the country. Nazis made a lot of propaganda against communism.
After WW2 the Soviets established a communist country in their zone. It lasted 40 years and was a dictatorship.
Today neither communism nor Nazis have a real chance in Germany.
Kaiser, forget your sophistry. Bad is bad! If you do not believe you can see it when you visit Germany. When you return, please tell us what you found here
Will do.
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