Armour in the desert

[tigger_on_vrb]

Everyone knows too much armour in the desert is bad, I've read that a unit with armour 5 or higher (not including shield bonus) tires at a faster rate in the desert, but I've also read in posts people not giving any armour upgrades at all to any units for use in the desert. Presumabley any armour increase makes the unit tire quicker than it would have done.
Heres what I do, I would like to here other opinions / comments:

Any unit with armour less than 3 gets upgrades to give it a total armour of 3,
eg archers, ghazis get +2; gallowglasses get +1 etc
Any unit with armour 3 or 4 I leave alone with no upgrade, I tend to use less armour level 4 units.
All mounted missile units get no upgrades as I tend to make them do a lot of work running around in a battle and keep them away from missile duels.
I almost never use units of armour 5 or higher in the desert.

I've never really had much problems with fatigue, but I'm keen to learn from the experiences of others.

So comments generally please, also in particular
-Do you leave your guys totally unarmoured?
-Would you use armour level 4 rather than 3 as a base?
-Do you add armour to your mounted missiles (and does that change how you use them)?
-Do you use heavily armoured troops and make a quick assault?

[CBR]

Infantry with armour 1-2 has same fatigue as normal (as in not being in a desert at all) the higher the value after 1-2 the quicker the units gets fatigued.

For cavalry its armour 2-3.


CBR

[IrishMike]

Personally I never worry about the armor amount. Unless its a Multiplayer game, I just take the heavy infantry into battle and the heavy calv. Of course their is not much moving around, no fancy tactics, just a straight head on advance and attack. Most Muslim factions won't be able to stand up to this, untill the very late game, so its not really a concern.

[EatYerGreens]

Tigger,

excuse my ignorance but what is level 5 armour? The only levels I know of are plain (none), dark grey (gunmetal? colour), silver and gold. Am I missing one there? Like 'bronze' colour, or something?



I don't see armour for desert troops as an absolute no-no though. If you can afford the luxury, you might want to have an armoured army at the frontier province and keep back an unarmoured army for counter attacking, should you ever lose a territory.

Reason being, when defending, you want them to come to you, then be able to slug it out and surviving the slugging matches are what armour is all about. Fatigue is not a problem if the enemy are running off the field...
:charge:
Meanwhile, when you're on the offensive, you need the extra endurance and speed of movement and may have to accept the likelihood of higher casualties.

[Martok]

As a general rule, the most armour I'll give to any unit is usually +2 (unless their armour rating already starts out higher, of course), maybe +3. This is especially true of light cavalry, as I like them to be able to remain mobile without tiring in the first minute of battle. (Besides, in my opinion, light cav shouldn't attack anything where it would need a higher armour bonus than that anyway. ~;) )

Of course, as 3 of my favorite factions are the Spanish, Egyptians, and Byzantines, I'm used to fighting in the desert a lot, and I tend to play to each of those factions' strengths. So since a lot of Byz of units start out with pretty high armour bonuses (katanks, VG, PA, Byz Inf. Byz Lancers, etc.), I usually don't need to go in for a lot of armour upgrades, if at all. Since most Egyptian units are built for speed and/or stamina, I'll give them just 2-3 armour upgrades.

The Spanish are a little trickier, as I have them fighting a lot of desert battles (against the Almos and later on the Egyptians). Since they're a Catholic faction, however, their units are built for strength and power--and therefore you generally want to give them more armour bonuses to augment this.

In the end, what I usually wind up doing with most factions is have half my provinces training units with a lot of armour bonuses (usually heavy infantry and spear/seargent/pike units, as they generally don't move around a whole lot), and the other half training units with just a couple armour upgrades (usually missile units, cavarly, and any fast infantry with a high attack/defense ratio, such as Ghazi's or Highland Clansmen).

[Mujalumbo]

Everyone knows too much armour in the desert is badThat depends on who's wearing the armour, me or my enemies. ;)

I don't have a hard and fast rule when it comes to armour in the desert. I've crusaded to Palestine and saw my exausted bronze-armoured Order Footsoldiers rout unit after unit.

Playing a Catholic faction, if I have the luxury of time, I'll create a desert army specifically for the southern lands; lots of archers, spears, light cav, and some armoured up hard-hitting heavy cav for flanking. I've found that Feudal Men-at-arms without armour upgrades do eventually exhaust out and start taking casualties; still worth it though.

[Marcellus]

Everyone knows too much armour in the desert is bad

Yes, too much armour in the desert is bad, but don't forget that armour brings defense benefits! ~:)

It's a trade off between stamina and defense.

[antisocialmunky]

Well, if I have to fight in the desert as a Cathy, I'd take over Ireland and pump Gallowglasses.

I mean... seriously, BEST ... DESERT UNIT .... EVER.

Those guys are like Lancers with two feet and no armour and AP!

Gallowglasses.
Charge 8 Attack 5 Defence 0 Armour 2 Speed 6, 10, 11 Morale 0 Cost 200 Support cost 22


Lancers
Charge 8 Attack 5 Defence 7 Armour 9 Speed 9, 20, 22 Morale 8 Cost 850 Support cost 85

Feudal knights.
Charge 8 Attack 4 Defence 3 Armour 4 Speed 9, 20, 22 Morale 8 Cost 425 Support cost 105

Chivalric knights.
Charge 8 Attack 5 Defence 5 Armour 7 Speed 9, 20, 22 Morale 8 Cost 675 Support cost 85

I mean... those guys out charge KNIGHTs. FREAKING FEUDAL KNIGHTS!!!

It's actually pretty easy yo get them because I think it's three to four ships to Ireland. If you're playing the Spanish, you get them to +3 attack and + 2 valour. I think Ireland gives a bonus to them but I may be wrong. You can get it from a general anyways, bribe El Cid.

That's a total of:

Charge 8 Attack 10 Defence 2 Armour 2 Speed 6, 10, 11 Morale 4 Cost 200 Support cost 22

WITH AP! ~:eek:

Hell, give them armour Bonuses after your romp through North Afrika and send them to take out the Byz. ~:cheers:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I usually do North Africa last, I don't build desert armies. I just fight VERY fast. Pound the Chivalric Knights fast out to the flanks and the heavy spears up the centre, bang. Battle Over.

That said I do suffer with knights, thats why I modded the game so that Catholics produce Mounted Nobles. Those are good desert Cav.

[ichi]

Tigger,

excuse my ignorance but what is level 5 armour? The only levels I know of are plain (none), dark grey (gunmetal? colour), silver and gold. Am I missing one there? Like 'bronze' colour, or something?

Each unit starts with a base armor value, hit F1 during a battle for a screen that will show the armor (as well as att. def, and morale) stats for your guys.

Each upgrading of armor (grey silver gold) adds plus one to your unit's armor stat.

There are some Muslim units that start with armor level 5, and I've found that it is possible to use these units in the desert successfully, you just can't let them stand forever, or run them too much.

Of course, as CBR and others have stated, units with low armor (1-2) fatigue much slower in the hot sun.

ichi :bow:

[EatYerGreens]

Thanks for the insight ichi,

if you hadn't told me, I would have thought F1 would have brought up some kind of help menu. (doh!!) Well, I said I was ignorant. Is this another one of these undocumented features? How the heck did people find these things out by accident, is what I have to wonder.


Anyway, stopping to press keys and gaze at stats during a battle? That's a whole new ball game to me - I'm far too carried away by the action to even think of stuff like that. (Can it be done before pressing the 'Begin Battle' button?)

By contrast, I've seen posts from people to whom the concept of conducting battles without resorting to issuing battle orders in pause mode is a whole new concept too.

Not that I'm a denizen of the multiplayer rooms though - I've never actually tried MP yet - it's more to do with acknowledgment of the fact that real-life generals weren't superhuman, did not have a bird's eye view of the action and there's a limit to how complex an order can be when it needs to be executed seconds from now. In other words conveyed by the medieval equivalent of the bugle-call, rather than by a rider, with all the delay that entails.

There are times when my units are off chasing things and I will use the local unit-view to find out what's going on and act as unit commander for a moment but that's as far as I'll use the 'demigod' mode. ~;) Most of the time, it's a case of organised chaos with me, even when I'm winning. I think I'd get eaten alive on MP. :dizzy2:

[antisocialmunky]

I've never used pause in a fight, it takes away the challenge. I've never found the need to really.

[Patron]

You can only train Gallowglasses in Ireland and Ireland doesn't have rich iron deposits. How do you up the attack by 3? Without modding.

[BAD]

You can only train Gallowglasses in Ireland and Ireland doesn't have rich iron deposits. How do you up the attack by 3? Without modding.

They get a valour bonus for buliding them in Ireland, which adds +1 to attack and defence and to morale aswell I think. Also I guess if you build the Master Swordsmith they get a further valour bonus when built there again giving the same bonus. Then you can add a generals bonus from command stars on top of that. . . and maybe the unit may even get vice's and virtues like Pride/Killer Instinct/Argumentative. WooooooHoooooooooooo's!!! :duel:

[ichi]

Thanks for the insight ichi,

if you hadn't told me, I would have thought F1 would have brought up some kind of help menu. (doh!!) Well, I said I was ignorant. Is this another one of these undocumented features? How the heck did people find these things out by accident, is what I have to wonder.


Anyway, stopping to press keys and gaze at stats during a battle? That's a whole new ball game to me - I'm far too carried away by the action to even think of stuff like that. (Can it be done before pressing the 'Begin Battle' button?)

By contrast, I've seen posts from people to whom the concept of conducting battles without resorting to issuing battle orders in pause mode is a whole new concept too.

Not that I'm a denizen of the multiplayer rooms though - I've never actually tried MP yet - it's more to do with acknowledgment of the fact that real-life generals weren't superhuman, did not have a bird's eye view of the action and there's a limit to how complex an order can be when it needs to be executed seconds from now. In other words conveyed by the medieval equivalent of the bugle-call, rather than by a rider, with all the delay that entails.

There are times when my units are off chasing things and I will use the local unit-view to find out what's going on and act as unit commander for a moment but that's as far as I'll use the 'demigod' mode. ~;) Most of the time, it's a case of organised chaos with me, even when I'm winning. I think I'd get eaten alive on MP. :dizzy2:

If you haven't tried MP, I still highly recommend it. The AI can throw some things at you, but a human can really make things tough.

And, it will help improve your ability to organize.

ichi :bow:

[Ironside]

Been experimenting with using troops without any armour upgrades. It's a semi expensive method though, as your first line will often loose, but the second won't ~D , as the enemy gets exhausted troops for the rest of the battle. No need to care about tired troops.

Although I think a medium armored first line, withdrawed after the first battle and replaced with light troops, would work best. :thinking:

[bretwalda]

Thanks for the insight ichi,

if you hadn't told me, I would have thought F1 would have brought up some kind of help menu. (doh!!) Well, I said I was ignorant. Is this another one of these undocumented features? How the heck did people find these things out by accident, is what I have to wonder.


Anyway, stopping to press keys and gaze at stats during a battle? That's a whole new ball game to me - I'm far too carried away by the action to even think of stuff like that. (Can it be done before pressing the 'Begin Battle' button?)

By contrast, I've seen posts from people to whom the concept of conducting battles without resorting to issuing battle orders in pause mode is a whole new concept too.

Not that I'm a denizen of the multiplayer rooms though - I've never actually tried MP yet - it's more to do with acknowledgment of the fact that real-life generals weren't superhuman, did not have a bird's eye view of the action and there's a limit to how complex an order can be when it needs to be executed seconds from now. In other words conveyed by the medieval equivalent of the bugle-call, rather than by a rider, with all the delay that entails.

There are times when my units are off chasing things and I will use the local unit-view to find out what's going on and act as unit commander for a moment but that's as far as I'll use the 'demigod' mode. ~;) Most of the time, it's a case of organised chaos with me, even when I'm winning. I think I'd get eaten alive on MP. :dizzy2:

Yes, you can press F1 anytime on the battle screen. However there are some differences in a real battle and in a virtual battle that can justify using the pause button (of course only in single player because you can't stop multiplayer).

E.g. you could tell one of your unit leaders who leads 39 turcoman horseriders, that

"now as the battle start you go around the flank and start peppering the other army general. If any heavy cavalry starts chasing you then run and skirmish with your arrows. Keep away from any archers. Good Luck!"

You cannot do this in the virtual battle, so you need to give orders on by one. Sometimes many in one second. Also I very often mis-click (clicking another unit or in between units in the bottom unit bar by giving move order instead of switching units).

In multiplayer your adversary faces the same problems and challenges but AI does not. With the _sensible_ use of pause button your battles stay organized and if you replay it won't be a mess of troops slugging out (sometimes that happens even then...)

[antisocialmunky]

You can only train Gallowglasses in Ireland and Ireland doesn't have rich iron deposits. How do you up the attack by 3? Without modding.

Aw crap, I forgot you couldn't retrain like RTW where you can retrain everywhere and get bonuses from everywhere. Oh well, their base stats are insane compared to most infantry.

Get a good general and they'll be laying the smack down in High and Late with all the super armoured units running around.

[ichi]

honorable bretwalda you make good points, but for me the whole point of the battle is to accept the challenge of managing 16 units without pausing. This, to me, is the game. In order to manage 16 units I have to organize them, group some, put some on auto, micro-manage some, and make the rounds checking in on all of them from time to time, setting priorities.

There is no right or wrong to the 'pause' issue, just preference. The chaos, the confusion, the nick-of-time moves, the pace are what make this the best game.

ichi :bow:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Everyone knows too much armour in the desert is bad, I've read that a unit with armour 5 or higher (not including shield bonus) tires at a faster rate in the desert, but I've also read in posts people not giving any armour upgrades at all to any units for use in the desert. Presumabley any armour increase makes the unit tire quicker than it would have done.
Well its more the class of aermor more than anything else that counts. If it says heavy armor its no good in the desert. I dont play sp but I consider myself the expert on desert warfare as far as mp goes. Theres nothing I like better than taking my English army into the desert and kicking some Muslim butt. I never and I mean never give any units armor ups in the desert. Your better off increasing either valor or weapons as they dont slow you down. Stamina ad energy management are the secrets to winning these battle. The only unit with any armor to speak of I use would be mounted sargents. Of course if you can rush it is possible to still use armor to your advantage. But you better win damn fast.

[PittBull260]

thats why I dont attack the deserts at all :)

[antisocialmunky]

Ya know, now that I think of it, I've never really had problems with the desert.

The only units that you HAVE to worry about are insanely heavy units and cav like Gothic Seargents, Swiss Armor Pikemen, Gothic Knights, Kataphrakts, and all the other really heavy cav. And the only reason you should really pay attention to them are those insanely cheap camels.

Heavy infantry still outclass or match Muslim units even when tired, they just have so much armor and defense making them able to last even when tired. Just put a good general behind them to counteract fatigue morale penalties so they don't rout. And DO NOT let tired infantry get flanked by cav, that WILL cause an autorout.

:charge:

[bretwalda]

Most honorable and distinguished ichi, you have already proven yourself a worthy foe and a great commander! I humbly accept your opinion especially since we both want to get the most fun out of the game!

In the beginning I used to use pause a lot, now less and less and most of the time I use when I misclicked and thereby disrupting my formation or moving the wrong unit, etc.

I only said that there are some points that can be said to justify pausing. I think I can play most or all battles without pause and sometimes I do (useful for practicing MP, although I still mainly play SP) I guess it is just preference and of course whatever makes your game feel complete.



honorable bretwalda you make good points, but for me the whole point of the battle is to accept the challenge of managing 16 units without pausing. This, to me, is the game. In order to manage 16 units I have to organize them, group some, put some on auto, micro-manage some, and make the rounds checking in on all of them from time to time, setting priorities.

There is no right or wrong to the 'pause' issue, just preference. The chaos, the confusion, the nick-of-time moves, the pace are what make this the best game.

ichi :bow:

[ichi]

I guess it is just preference and of course whatever makes your game feel complete.

Absolutely

ichi :bow:

[EatYerGreens]

If you haven't tried MP, I still highly recommend it. The AI can throw some things at you, but a human can really make things tough.


I know. That's what I'm worried about. :rolleyes:
I frequently win against the AI but sometimes it's a real struggle. Whatever the 'grand plan' was, it usually ends up as a firefighting exercise, shifting attention from one crisis to the next and just ordering (to engage) whichever unit is closest to the one most in need of help rather than sending the correct troop types against their best target.

When I do win, even then it's mostly down to making sure I outnumber or out-quality the opposing side before the off, which is a very conservative approach and doesn't speak particularly well for my abilities. I just bank on half my army routing at a critical point so always bring plenty of excess.

I actually don't mind getting beaten by the AI, since it's generally a case of me under-garrisoning a province and getting steam-rollered off whatever hill I've perched myself on. If I lose when attacking then I only have myself to blame for stuffing it up.

Now, losing to another person is a completely different matter. :embarassed:

Slap the 'pride' vice on my parchment! :wink3:



And, it will help improve your ability to organize.

Aye, 's true.

On the other hand, part of the chaos is down to troops not behaving as expected. On defence, I set the to hold position but there comes a time when something comes within reach and it's worth a quick charge to take advantage of the downslope. Only trouble being if the attackers run away, they then give chase. Sometimes they could be beyond the halfway line before they properly disengage and start trudging back to their 'hold' point and after all the running, they're knackered. All the while, I have a gap in my line which needs to be filled. Straightforward stuff, I know, but when my attention is held by action elsewhere, I sometimes don't see this chase going on and more than likely my runaway unit is being eaten up or captured by the incoming enemy reinforcements line.

So, in a no-pause battle and when I'm on the ball, I'm as often hitting the 'halt' button as all other orders combined and then ordering troops back into proper position when I should be focusing on various ongoing meleés. Sometimes the halt button greys-out for a unit, even when they are attacking, or chasing routers off the field and I want them to come back!

Of course unit impetuousness (either inherent in the unit type or affected by the situation or the 'general's reputation' thing) is written into the game and it's a factor which may have scuppered many a real-life general's battle plans...

I don't know if using 'engage at will' would improve things or make them disengage from a chase any more quickly. There are times when I see a unit 2 seconds' walk away from another which is in trouble and are in a position to flank the attackers with less than a quarter turn and they just sit there and watch. One would like to be able to leave the local commander to decide on the best course of action but they usually have to be told. Grrr

[EatYerGreens]

Been experimenting with using troops without any armour upgrades. It's a semi expensive method though, as your first line will often loose, but the second won't ~D , as the enemy gets exhausted troops for the rest of the battle. No need to care about tired troops.

Although I think a medium armored first line, withdrawed after the first battle and replaced with light troops, would work best. :thinking:


Sounds sensible to me. Rather than a cut and dried 'yes' or 'no' to armour, it's the middle way. A mixture of both gives you more flexibility. One lot able to take a pounding - just remember not to have them pursue or route march them too much - and the other lot to take over the attack in a fresh state and use speed of movement to outmanouvre and clobber the exhausted remnants of your attackers.

At least, that makes sense to me if I'm defending, whilst on the attack I might prefer to go for all unarmoured, as per Gawain of Orkeny's style.

Even without the encumberance, if it means crossing two-thirds of the map to reach the defenders, I'd still be tempted to pull up short of arrow range and wait until my troops' energy levels are back to 'fresh' before launching the attack itself.

Not a luxury one can expect to get in MP, I'd guess.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Not a luxury one can expect to get in MP, I'd guess.

To be sure.


I'd still be tempted to pull up short of arrow range and wait until my troops' energy levels are back to 'fresh' before launching the attack itself.

Any troops with armor over 4 or 5 will never go back past two bars. Pavs for instance are at 2 bars without even moving in about 10 minutes.I never use anything but archers in desert no matter what era. People make the mistake of engaging enemy pavs with their archers instead of going after melee units. Just wait and let their armored units roast. Again after 10 or 15 minutes they will all be at 2 bars. My army even after marching accross the whole map will still be 4 bars.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Thats only if those Pavs don't move in and mow you down. I just use straight Arbelasters and I've had some very good results in the desert as the Byzantines.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Thats only if those Pavs don't move in and mow you down. I just use straight Arbelasters and I've had some very good results in the desert as the Byzantines.

How their the slowest units in the game?

Regular arbs arent much better nor are Byz inf. It may work in sp but you will loose in mp.

[antisocialmunky]

I always found archer hybrids great in the desert. Heat exhaustion and massive arrow fire equals sad and funny at the same time.

[Roark]

I don't know how you guys do the big battles without the pause button...

I need it just to get all my units into good position, especially lining up ranks of spearmen/sarges.

[PittBull260]

turks freakin own in the desert :)

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Nope english do.

[BAD]

turks freakin own in the desert :)

Exactly. Coudn't ask for a better lineup than, Futtuwa's, Ghazi's, Jannisary Heavies, Turocoman Horse and Armenian Heavy Cavalry. :charge:

[bretwalda]

Well, I love Turks, just that Ghulam Cavalry seems better to me than Armenian HC. Armenian HC either rout the enemy on contact or slowly lose...

:wink:

[tigger_on_vrb]

I think Armenian heavy cavalry are much superior, although I'm talking campaign game here and not multiplayer as in the campaign its easy to quickly build a master horse breeder in Armenia and you've got +2 valour armenian heavy cavalry.

[Advo-san]

I usually conquer an iron province and re-train my ranged units there. An arbalester or longbowman with an upgrated weapon can really wear down enemy units to the point of fleeing.

[ichi]

The problem with the Turks in the desert is that their best troops are fairly heavily armored - JHI, AHC and Ghulam Cav for example.

For pure desert its gotta be the Egyptians, Futs, Nizari, Abyssinians, Camels, Faris, Ghazis - usually high morale troops with low armor.

ichi :bow:

[antisocialmunky]

I don't know how you guys do the big battles without the pause button...

I need it just to get all my units into good position, especially lining up ranks of spearmen/sarges.

You really need to remember 3 simple things if your playing with Cathys and using a spearman core or the Byz with a Infantry core:

1. Simple = Good - For example with your spearmen. Select them all, group them, and drag them into a 5-6 deep formation. This allows them to be side-by-side each other and reduces the time it takes to line your troops up on an offense if the enemy starts running around.

2. Camera and Minimap - Set the camera as high as possible so you can see as much as possible and always check on any unit with a fighting symbol or is doing something not right(moving while should not, staying still while should be moving). For example, if your line is surrounded by archers, you can double click on them to instazoom to where the enemy is advancing. Learn to use it and love it all the time.

3. Only micro 1-4 units at a time. Main battleline units can usually take care of themselves unless they get really really messed up. Besides, you can really move those guys around. Cav is what you really have to concentrate on when you're microing something.

[BAD]

The problem with the Turks in the desert is that their best troops are fairly heavily armored - JHI, AHC and Ghulam Cav for example.

For pure desert its gotta be the Egyptians, Futs, Nizari, Abyssinians, Camels, Faris, Ghazis - usually high morale troops with low armor.

ichi :bow:

I'd have to disagree. JHI only have armour 3, easily useable in the desert and the AHC only have armour 4, the +2 valour bonus easily outweighs their slight (only 1 too high) armour disadvantage in the desert. They are like Chivalric Knights, with less armour (better for desert) and an era earlier.

But of course the eggies have the best army for the desert, it would be a stupid game mechanic if they didn't. xD

[EatYerGreens]

I don't know how you guys do the big battles without the pause button...

I need it just to get all my units into good position, especially lining up ranks of spearmen/sarges.


a.s.m. beat me to it ...........but another variation is to create the group using Ctrl-clicks on the unit icons, press G for group, then right-click on the group header bar to get the group actions menu, hover your cursor on 'group formations, then browse the pop-out list of available patterns. Then press the number for the required formation. '1' makes them all line up nicely.

That's the menu-driven way but I have to admit it is cludgy by comparison. However, once you know which number is which pattern, you only have to create a group and press '1' for single line, or whatever.

Actually I hate the GUI since, if I'm rushed and I slide the mouse pointer sideways in anything less than a horizontal straight line, the sidewards pop-out menu vanishes when the cursor misses its mark and I have to repeat the process. Perhaps it's best to do this in pause one time and write down the various formations on a quick reference card. (I ought to take my own advice here, so I don't have to keep browsing the menu to see what's available).


The method a.s.m. described is far better though as you can click on units in a logical order L to R across the field (or vice versa) then drag out unit shapes to exactly where they're wanted, with a clear idea of how much ground they will cover. Much more intuitive.


With regard to what I described, the hazard of clicking on the unit icons at the bottom of screen is that they frequently don't relate to the relative L to R positions within your army. When you select the icons, group them and tell them to form line, sometimes they all bunch up as they bump into each other halfway to crossing over to their new positions according to how the game decided to sort them. Oops.

A fast-reacting and wily enemy will charge into you while you're temporarily in a disorganised mess like this, provided you were close enough.

It is also the only clean way to 'wheel' your entire army into a particular direction and retain overall formation. As far as I can see, there is no game command to do this, seemingly, most fundamental behaviour.

Alt-right-map-click only makes units turn to face that direction but they all swivel on the spot, whereas I'm talking about entire formations turning (in reality it's quite tricky to do, as the flanks need to run many times faster than the centre ranks).

There are times when I've tried to use 'march with fixed facing' to achieve this but muddled my keypresses, pressed Alt-map-click instead of Ctrl-map-click and ended up with all my units charging to the assigned map point, then standing, arranged as previously but obligingly with their collective flanks facing the enemy ~:eek: I was lucky that a crash to desktop saved me from the ensuing massacre I was suffering as the enemy took advantage of the mess created by my attempts to re-orient everything.

Basically all attempts at whole-army maneuvres (conducted with all 16 units highlighted) have the inbuilt hazard of a clumsy click here or there... :embarassed:

[Roark]

@ Eatyergreens & Munkiman

You have no idea how helpful those posts were. Thanks gentlemen. :bow:

[antisocialmunky]

That's actually a few things I've forgot to add.

4. Spacebar is your best friend, EVER. It shows where your units will end up. I personally issue more of my commands with spacebar pressed. It's great for foramtions.

5. The closer the more micro. The closer the enemy is, the more you have to respond without using mass moves. The computer may not process correctly if too many things start to happen. Thus, if a mass move(ALT + LEFT) scatters your forces by having them turn 60 degrees when they arrive at their location, YOU WILL DIE HORRIBLY and should run or halt and charge into the enemy and try to flank desperately. It is much better to manually move your forces one by one when the enemy is close unless it is an end up facing this the same direction.

You CAN ALT+ RIGHT DRAG TURN YOUR ARMY. You have to group them all in one group and have them in hold position to make sure 90% of the time it works. It may have problems when too many things are happening. It's easier to rapid deploy in rows sometimes if your formation is simple.

Also, knights are evil and the AI likes to send them on ridiculously wide edge hugging Hail Mary flanking missions and will try and force you to move. This is bad in unpaused. Thus, you REALLY need something to deal with annoying cavalry, either better cav or habs will do. HA running them around is useful. They are good to jack up a attacking cav force if you put them near where the enemy starts.

6. Remember where specific units are. It's usually good to group your units from your left to right or soemthing. That's not good enough though. When your guys are taking casualties, remember the unit sizes so you can identify the position and status of units you're not microing just to make sure they're not dead... or sitting there doing nothing. Double clicking is rather... disorienting compared to knowing where your units are and how they're doing. Scrolling also allows you to check things along the way unless your guys are getting pwned. Battlefield awareness almost guarentees victory.

7. Archers:smash:. Archers will stop firing automatically if your units are engaged, but they will not stop if you order them to target a unit. Archer management is nice to learn. If you're busy microing, it's a good idea to keep them in hold position, formation and fire at will. Fire a will can be troublesome because archers like to have optimal everyone-is-shooting formations. Hold position will keep them form turning in an annoying way that would run a corner of them into a melee.

[ichi]

With regard to what I described, the hazard of clicking on the unit icons at the bottom of screen is that they frequently don't relate to the relative L to R positions within your army. When you select the icons, group them and tell them to form line, sometimes they all bunch up as they bump into each other halfway to crossing over to their new positions according to how the game decided to sort them. Oops.

This is easy to solve, but first I have to make it clear that I only hard group infantry. Pavs and cavs get positioned prior to the fight in relation to their icons - the left-most pav icon represents the left-most pav on the field, the center pav icon represents the center pav, etc..

Let's say you have 5 Men-at-Arms for an infantry line. Line them up (eg FMAA FMAA CMAA FMAA FMAA) then left click on the left-most unit, then hold CTRL and left click on the second-to-left unit, then the center unit, across the line until all are selected. Now hit G for hard group (hit F while you're at it to make them Hold Formation) and voila the icons for the units are sorted left to right in the order they appear (left to right) on the field.

I use soft groups for cav (select the cav you want to group, then hit CTRL+Shift+1 - then hit CTRL-1 to to group in combat). Works for any # (CTRL_Shift-#)

ichi :bow:

[ichi]

It is also the only clean way to 'wheel' your entire army into a particular direction and retain overall formation. As far as I can see, there is no game command to do this, seemingly, most fundamental behaviour.

Alt-right-map-click only makes units turn to face that direction but they all swivel on the spot, whereas I'm talking about entire formations turning (in reality it's quite tricky to do, as the flanks need to run many times faster than the centre ranks).

like ASM said, select the units then hit G then use Alt-Right Click to make the formation wheel in unison.

ichi :bow:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

But of course the eggies have the best army for the desert, it would be a stupid game mechanic if they didn't. xD

Once more in high and late the english have the best desert units . In early the French have the best. If you dont believe me ask anyone whos faced my English army in the desert. Its almost like cheating. Long bows and clansmen rule the desert.

[L'Impresario]

Once more in high and late the english have the best desert units . In early the French have the best. If you dont believe me ask anyone whos faced my English army in the desert. Its almost like cheating. Long bows and clansmen rule the desert.
Nah, the money saved by the camel-using factions (as you need only 4 camels and a few cheap fast saharans as cav) can be used to boost the infantry, which in muslim factions is more often hybrid than not. Meaning that in the end ,apart from the 4 (or 6 for me;)) lbs, you'll need to use up about 3 slots to normal archers or crossbows if you don't plan on waiting for a long time. Turks or Egyptians can have better archer units and better hybrid ones -considering LB as hybrids, although even at v3 their routing is often just one or two good cav charges away-, at the expense of range, which will not win the day solely on its own for the English. Shooting the camels is always a good idea but ,hey, just wishing for it doesn't always work;)

[antisocialmunky]

Once more in high and late the english have the best desert units . In early the French have the best. If you dont believe me ask anyone whos faced my English army in the desert. Its almost like cheating. Long bows and clansmen rule the desert.

I didn't know that the French had any special units... I thought they just got insanely good land.

[EatYerGreens]

Let's say you have 5 Men-at-Arms for an infantry line. Line them up (eg FMAA FMAA CMAA FMAA FMAA) then left click on the left-most unit, then hold CTRL and left click on the second-to-left unit, then the center unit, across the line until all are selected. Now hit G for hard group (hit F while you're at it to make them Hold Formation) and voila the icons for the units are sorted left to right in the order they appear (left to right) on the field.

Oh, okay. It's just when I've brought more than 16 units with me and have done some swapping around. When you make the change, the replacement's icon always appears on the extreme left, regarless of its field position. If all the units are 60 men, it's hard to tell one from another but I'll take your word for it that the group properly sorts them from left to right.



I use soft groups for cav (select the cav you want to group, then hit CTRL+Shift+1 - then hit CTRL-1 to to group in combat). Works for any # (CTRL_Shift-#)

I don't quite understand what you mean by 'soft' groupings, nor what's going on when you set them up. Can you expand on that description? What can be achieved with this technique that isn't done properly with normal groupings?

Also, are those keypresses undocumented? I don't recognise them.

[ichi]

I'll take your word for it that the group properly sorts them from left to right.

It sorts IF you select them by clicking on the units on the field from left to right. It is possible for them to get unsorted during battle.


I don't quite understand what you mean by 'soft' groupings, nor what's going on when you set them up. Can you expand on that description? What can be achieved with this technique that isn't done properly with normal groupings?

I use the term 'hard group' to mean one that uses the G key. Select several units, hit the G key, and they are hard grouped.

I use the term soft group for when I select several units then hold down the Ctrl and Shift key and any number.

For example, I hard group my infantry line. Since units that are hard grouped tend to try to wheel about in formation I do not hard group my cav (hard grouped cav have a much harder time disengaging). But I want some cav grouped for ease of control.

Bear with me, this is hard to explain (at least for me). In online play I tend to use 3 pavs, placed out front, followed by 3 heavy cav, followed by my infantry line, with a heavy cav on each flank, my gen in the rear.

I want to group the 3 cav in front, so I select them, hold CTRL and Shift and the number 1 (CTRL-Shift-1). I then select all my missile units, all my infantry units and my gen and hit CTRL-Shift-2.

Now, during the battle I can hit CTRL-1 to select the 3 cav or Ctrl-2 to select my main force.

If, for example, I have an army with a cav archer, and I frequently use my cav archer independently of my main force, I might select all of the units except the cav archer
and hit Ctrl-Shift-4. This way I can select all units EXCEPT the cav archer using Ctrl-4. Of course, Ctrl-A selects all units, Ctrl-M selects all missiles, Ctrl-C selects all cav.

Hope that helps. If you want more let's plan to meet onlineand fight a few MP battles, be happy to show you a few tricks, and its easier to be clear.

ichi :bow:

[antisocialmunky]

I usually use hard groupings since I can see who is where.

[EatYerGreens]

It sorts IF you select them by clicking on the units on the field from left to right. It is possible for them to get unsorted during battle.


I see. I think I have a tendency to select by clicking on the icons and maybe that's the problem. I did a quick test the other night, grouped about 5 inf units together and then double-clicked on each icon in turn, to make the camera move to them. Oddly enough, clicking the icons in L to R order made the camera shuffle from R to L!!! That's the sort of thing I mean. Oh well.



I use the term 'hard group' to mean one that uses the G key. Select several units, hit the G key, and they are hard grouped.

I use the term soft group for when I select several units then hold down the Ctrl and Shift key and any number.

Ah, I remember this now. I used that for things like grouping whatever makes up my left flank, my centre, my right flank, my archers (for targeting control purposes) and so on. I didn't realise it also worked without first defining a hard group for each 'team'. That'll be handy, particularly if, as you say, hard grouping has adverse effects on unit behavour.





Hope that helps. If you want more let's plan to meet onlineand fight a few MP battles, be happy to show you a few tricks, and its easier to be clear.


That's something I'd like to try sometime. Though it'll take me a while to come up with a much better online handle than the one I'm using here!

By the way, you'll be please to learn that I've now gone ahead with installing V.I. I totalled several week's worth of campaign gamesaves as it kept crashing at the same point between two big battles and I didn't want to backtrack to an old save. Thought I may as well start from scratch, with a whole new game.

I've also installed GameSpy arcade and need to set up a user account before I can go any further.

A few other issues arising - I don't know if any further patches need to be applied to V2.01 to ensure the MP side will work (eg if other people are patched and I'm not) and I'll also need tips on proper firewall configuration, port numbers and so on. No need to reply on that, I'm sure it's in the FAQ somewhere.

The biggest obstacle to MP at the moment is that I've got tech troubles with CTD's and spontaneous PC reboots, which weren't fixed by the latest vid driver, sadly. I've posted in the apothecary about it here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=50594).


We're wayyyyy off topic here. Does the forum cope with thread-splitting?
In other words, if I hit the reply or quote button but change the message title before submit reply, will it be properly recognised as a new thread or will it bring up an error message and make me lose everything I've typed?

[ichi]

That's something I'd like to try sometime. Though it'll take me a while to come up with a much better online handle than the one I'm using here!

Great, let me know when are up and running.

BTW, EYG is a great online name, IMHO

ichi :bow:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Nah, the money saved by the camel-using factions (as you need only 4 camels and a few cheap fast saharans as cav) can be used to boost the infantry, which in muslim factions is more often hybrid than not. Meaning that in the end ,apart from the 4 (or 6 for me;)) lbs, you'll need to use up about 3 slots to normal archers or crossbows if you don't plan on waiting for a long time.

Im afraid you dont understand the LBs are my archers. I wont even engage your archers but shoot your hybrids or melee units. I will have 8 fast hard hittingg cav that your camels cant catch and my clansmen will go through just about anything you have like a knife through butter. I dont know if you play mp but ask anyone whos faced this army.


I didn't know that the French had any special units... I thought they just got insanely good land.

Again I only speak of mp. The French have so many good desert units its hard to pick them. They have Holibars, mounted sargents and Turcuotes for cav. They have clansmen and fanatics for inf . Plus numerous types of archers.

[Roark]

French clansmen?

Another multiplayer feature?

[antisocialmunky]

Don't the English get Scots in early?

[L'Impresario]

Im afraid you dont understand the LBs are my archers. I wont even engage your archers but shoot your hybrids or melee units. I will have 8 fast hard hittingg cav that your camels cant catch and my clansmen will go through just about anything you have like a knife through butter.
Well then you 've wasted good money on the LBs and in the end you 'll be forced to attack. In the end if you start shooting the opponents' inf, why won't he do the same to yours? He'll have more archers units anyway and some of them possibly "fast". If you send the supposedly fast english cav (such a thing doesn't exist btw) to get the extra archers, then they'll get shot by the second line if you face muslim factions with hybrids. Hobilars and Mounted Sergeants aren't to be chased around by camels as if they dont engage at some point the numerical superior muslim inf will win the 4 highland clansmen (which won't win vs JI v3 and will not win fast enough,if they win at all, vs MS v3 or even Otto inf v4), not taking account that they'll get hurt a by incoming missiles. Hobilars will be also hard pressed to win vs alans and even MSergeants v3 (if you can afford 'em at all) will need much more time to kill the cheaper v2 Faris than a camel v3 to kill 2 hobilars v3.

But things are really fickle during battle and all types of results are possible due to many circumstances not controllable by the player.


I dont know if you play mp but ask anyone whos faced this army

Well there are a few 100 times I faced such armies, but not controlled by you IIRC. I 've won easily, won hard, won due to timely allied intervention, won cause of opponents' mistakes, lost easily , lost after a doggish fight, lost due to allies sitting while getting doubled, due to bad armies, due to my own silly playing etc etc etc.

But no I don't play online ~D

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Well then you 've wasted good money on the LBs and in the end you 'll be forced to attack.

V0 lbs are very cheap. How will I be forced to attack unless your turks with tons of arrows? If you are it wont matter as ill run you over.


In the end if you start shooting the opponents' inf, why won't he do the same to yours?

No I out range them If he tries to get them in range my cav will chase them back or kill them.


If you send the supposedly fast english cav (such a thing doesn't exist btw) to get the extra archers, then they'll get shot by the second line if you face muslim factions with hybrids.

Check the stats they are fast and will run circles around camels. In fact they will rout camels if you can get them in the open.


s if they dont engage at some point the numerical superior muslim inf will win the 4 highland clansmen (which won't win vs JI v3 and will not win fast enough,if they win at all, vs MS v3 or even Otto inf v4)

Your wrong again. Are we talking 10k here? I havent seen anyone use v3 jhi in 10k. Meanwhile my clan are v4 w2 beleive me they go through anything at that level in 10k. Also all the have to do is engae the enemy inf while my cav flanks both sides.


But no I don't play online

The you are clueless and havent the foggiest idea of what you speak. I have one I would say over a thousand battles in the desert with this army and I would venture win over 90% of such games. Again ask anyone who has faced me in the desert. I really am quite fearsome ~D

[Puzz3D]

I agree with Gawain that the English is a good faction to use in the desert. I remember some CWC desert battles where my team was helpless to prevent the longbows from weakening our melee units.

[bretwalda]

The you are clueless and havent the foggiest idea of what you speak. I have one I would say over a thousand battles in the desert with this army and I would venture win over 90% of such games. Again ask anyone who has faced me in the desert. I really am quite fearsome ~D

Well, well, well - the only way to find it out that you two get together in an online fight (maybe a tournament of a few battles) and see who is better :wink: Each one of you can pick the favourite faction and you can do different priced battles...

If you do make sure to capture some screenshots and save the battle replays and post them here!!!
:charge:

[L'Impresario]

I see you don't offer solutions to the problems I presented. You outline some premises under which this army will work, that's why I answered to most of them in my previous post. Still, my own answers are also circumstantial, but more than enough to show that this english army is somewhat less than "undefeatable".

But for debate's sake, I'll add a few clarifying notes.


V0 lbs are very cheap. How will I be forced to attack unless your turks with tons of arrows? If you are it wont matter as ill run you over.

They cost more than any type of archer without any upgrade at all, while having the same amount of ammo.

About the range:


No I out range them If he tries to get them in range my cav will chase them back or kill them.

I sorry I don't see how outranging normal archers makes them unable to shoot at your inf while having a) hybrid archers/HA in support b) 1 or 2 extra archers in reserve or two lines of archers,one to shoot the inf, while the other the cav thus providing depth for retreat and still being able to shoot incoming cav c) saharans/alans,faster than english cav, certainly capable of covering the archers.

Also the fact that


Your wrong again. Are we talking 10k here? I havent seen anyone use v3 jhi in 10k. Meanwhile my clan are v4 w2 beleive me they go through anything at that level in 10k. Also all they have to do is engage the enemy inf while my cav flanks both sides.

shows that the case is reserved. v3 JHI I never mentioned, it was JI v3 - JHI v3 cannot be purchased at 10k without any suicidal tendencies, I think it's quite clear to everyone :balloon2: .OTOH highland clansmen v4 wpn2 are certainly a risky investment of 1477 florins. They very vulnerable to missiles and can be brought to a halt by the much cheaper JIv3, who ,if engaged frontally, will deplete the clansmen # of men to over 70% or over 75% of their initial size by MS v3 wpn1.
I also see that you presume total inactivity on the part of your opponent. Why are you so sure that the cav will flank both sides while your inf remains blissfully engaged into a 1v1 duel. If you face any faction with cav ~;) (and you have paid so much for the highland clansmen) then we can safely assume that the opponent's will be superior or he 'll have more inf unit of decent quality.



Check the stats they are fast and will run circles around camels. In fact they will rout camels if you can get them in the open.

No I think you confuse RTW with VI...there isn't any special ability called "avoid-the-camel circle" ~D and no english cav is fast, after one billion games you should 've known that m8 hehe The camels don't need to start chasing the cav as I said,they can hold the enemy cav and win it if it closes in, and so provide support from the ,presumable, numerically superior inf - I don't like repeating myself ~;)



Then you are clueless and havent the foggiest idea of what you speak. I have one I would say over a thousand battles in the desert with this army and I would venture win over 90% of such games. Again ask anyone who has faced me in the desert. I really am quite fearsome ~D

Yep, that's me , a clueless poor fellow :bow:

BTW I'm open to this:

Well, well, well - the only way to find it out that you two get together in an online fight (maybe a tournament of a few battles) and see who is better Each one of you can pick the favourite faction and you can do different priced battles

Steppesinland03 high 10k rock desert summer- surely this setting isn't representative of the qualities a desert army should have and I'm not fond of basing my statements on such "lab" environment games but it'll be fun ~;)
..provided that GS is active again.

[antisocialmunky]

V0 lbs are very cheap. How will I be forced to attack unless your turks with tons of arrows? If you are it wont matter as ill run you over.

...
Stuff
...
I pwnzer j00
...
ENTER THE PH34R!!!!
...



I hope you like the abbr. quote.

Just FYI, camels suck and will autorout in the open. You get what you pay for.

4 Longbows, 4 CK, 4 FK, 4 Clansman, huh?


That's hard to combo without mass archer hybrid spam... I think there's a way to beat it without archer camping since archer camping is annoying and not all that effective. I don't play online for I have 56K so, this is all theoretical.

4 Ghazi, 4 Ottoman Infantry or JI, 4 AHC, 4 Ghulam with suitable upgrades may be able to work. The Cavalry serve as the real killers while the Clansmen are auxilliary high carnage pinning infantry. The Longbows cover as both and as a tertiary melee infantry. I'm approaching this from head on. Ghazis and Ottomans are the main force. Basically, the idea is to try and hack through the cav using armor piercing units while countering your knights with comparable cav and armor piercing infantry.

I doubt it'd work against a good player, but hell, why not?

[L'Impresario]

antisocialmunky
Let us have our bragging game, it is overly needed these days in VI mp.


Just FYI, camels suck and will autorout in the open. You get what you pay for.
Well how can you prove this?


4 Longbows, 4 CK, 4 FK, 4 Clansman
No, this isn't a desert army, unless you about to rush immediately, so you' d better load up on the FMAA and CMAA as well. CK will get toasted.


4 Ghazi, 4 Ottoman Infantry, 4 AHC, 4 Ghulam with suitable upgrades may be able to work.
It depends on who controls it;)

56k isn't a reason for not playing online, I started playing on 56k and I had no probs (not that I have moved technologically a lot heh).

[CBR]

Just go online and fight it out ffs! Oh and show us replays afterwards ~:)


CBR

[Deus Ex]

and let's keep it friendly folks... ~D

DE

[antisocialmunky]

antisocialmunky
56k isn't a reason for not playing online, I started playing on 56k and I had no probs (not that I have moved technologically a lot heh).

I have a PCI graphics card, those two put together make the normal 32 unit battles with normal and small lag.

Well, I thought he said several high charging cav, I thought knights, but I guess Hobs and Mounteds then. I don't think he posted a list, but then again, I skimmed through it.

As for camels. The raw power of heavy cavalry means that if each unit has the same valour upgrades, the heavy cavalry will win. Though, I was refering to single player when I said that so I take that back since camels are cheaper and can face down knights in multiplayer since it's not based on the general.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I sorry I don't see how outranging normal archers makes them unable to shoot at your inf while having a) hybrid archers/HA in support b) 1 or 2 extra archers in reserve or two lines of archers,one to shoot the inf, while the other the cav thus providing depth for retreat and still being able to shoot incoming cav c) saharans/alans,faster than english cav, certainly capable of covering the archers.

Actually I have three options. I can shoot your archers and destroy them without you ever getting in range or I can move up 1 lb and start shooting your second line. Maybe you can get 1 or 2 archers on it but I will be killing much more expensive men. I then bring up another and then another. I can also use all 4 at once . Again florin wise which is really what counts in mp you will lose far more money. If you try to move your archers up my cav will kill them. saharans and alans are as fast as the english cav but no faster. Besides your going to take camels right. You only get 16 units.


I think it's quite clear to everyone .OTOH highland clansmen v4 wpn2 are certainly a risky investment of 1477 florins. They very vulnerable to missiles and can be brought to a halt by the much cheaper JIv3, who ,if engaged frontally, will deplete the clansmen # of men to over 70% or over 75% of their initial size by MS v3 wpn1.

No risk at all. You wont hit them with missles because I save them for the coup de grass. They are way to the rear. Again nothing stops them I dont care what you believe.


If you face any faction with cav (and you have paid so much for the highland clansmen) then we can safely assume that the opponent's will be superior or he 'll have more inf unit of decent quality.

All my cav is fast and 6 att and def. All they have to do is keep yours where my Lbs and clan can get to them.


No I think you confuse RTW with VI...there isn't any special ability called "avoid-the-camel circle"

Since I dont play RTW I doubt im confused on this matter. The facts are that camels are slow as hell. If you take say 4 their good only for defense. Any attempt to send them out will result in me doubling them. Also camels run from Clansmen like the plague.


Yep, that's me , a clueless poor fellow

Look once more sp doesnt prepare you for mp very well. Ask anyone who jumped into mp after playing sp for quite sometime how bad they got their butts kicked in mp. Its a different animal. Im not a great player but that desert army makes up for my lack of skill. I dont win anywhere near as many battles on other maps. Im telling you that my post count is small compared to the number of battles Ive fought. I bet Ive played more mp games of MTW/VI than anyone in the world. So I guess its me that clueless as you havent even been online yet.

[BAD]

I just rechecked the UNIT_PRODS for VI:-


Saharan Cavalry
March 9, Run 24, Charge 26

Alan Mercenary Cavalry
March 9, Run 24, Charge 26

Hobilars
March 9, Run 20, Charge 22

Mounted Sergeants
March 9, Run 20, Charge 22

Chivalric Knights
March 9, Run 20, Charge 22

Feudal Knights
March 9, Run 20, Charge 22

Bedouin Camel Warriors
March 9, Run 14, Charge 16

Berber Camels
March 9, Run 14, Charge 16

As you can see, Saharan's and Alans are "fast" Cavalry. The other English cavalry are "regular" speed cavalry, but in the desert the Knights will tire faster and won't be able to run or charge for long periods of time after the fatigue levels rise. And Camels are "slow" Cavalry, which however won't tire quickly at all and may well end up being quicker than the all the english cavalry types after a bit of fatigue. All depends on the fatigue and time issue of course. :dizzy2: Do your homework before saying what is fast and what isnt. ~:cheers:

PS - We want a replay. ~D

[littlebktruck]

EDIT: A bit too slow, I see.

[ichi]

50,000 florins on Gawain

ichi :bow:

[L'Impresario]

Actually I have three options. I can shoot your archers and destroy them without you ever getting in range or I can move up 1 lb and start shooting your second line. Maybe you can get 1 or 2 archers on it but I will be killing much more expensive men. I then bring up another and then another. I can also use all 4 at once . Again florin wise which is really what counts in mp you will lose far more money. If you try to move your archers up my cav will kill them. saharans and alans are as fast as the english cav but no faster. Besides your going to take camels right. You only get 16 units.

I surely love your deterministic approach. I used to talk like this in clan tactics threads with Sac, Ein and Marcus (ofcourse I did get my stats right and was expecting that each time an opponent may not play "nice" and comply to my wishes~;) ) ~:cheers:

And, since you say that you can take cav, which according to you


is fast and 6 att and def

then I think I'm entitled to take more than 16 units, ain't I ~D



Again nothing stops them I dont care what you believe.

Yep, that makes two of us. I don't care what I believe either but I do care about what the stats and reason believe.



The facts are that camels are slow as hell. If you take say 4 their good only for defense. Any attempt to send them out will result in me doubling them. Also camels run from Clansmen like the plague.

Hmm, it's all so calculated...if I don't move my mouse at all, will I rout or will I be spared?

This guy made a good proposal:

Steppesinland03 high 10k rock desert summer, best out ot 10

Tonight 21 GTM, dropped games after more than 1/4 of the units are engaged will be calculated with cwb rules or/and a referee if there's a disagreement. As I nearly know your army selection (although you purposefully misguide all heh) I'll be the attacker in all games and will play more than 3 factions, in order to challenge your claim of this army being undefeated (because If I won with a single setting and continued to do so then it wouldn't make any good points now, would it?).

Oh -must not forget-

*slaps ichi* ~;)

[Eternal Champion]

Oh -must not forget-

*slaps ichi* ~;)

Is this a challenge to another duel? ~:joker: ~:)

p.s.
Don't forget the replays. ~;)

[EatYerGreens]

BTW, EYG is a great online name, IMHO


Thanks. It's great for forum postings but was intentionally frivolous. I thought something else might be appropriate for the actual arena. EatYerArrows, or some such. ~;)

The only way 'EYG' can be interpreted as in any way threatening is the implication that the opponent's men will end up, face down, chewing on the grass... :leer:

[antisocialmunky]

I wonder how well Gothic Knights do in the desert compared to other Knights.

[L'Impresario]

They are transformed into FK in no time and then.... hmm obviously they'd not live that long heh

PS. I'm left wanting. Maybe tonight same time?

[antisocialmunky]

More specifically is fatigue just X rate of tiring or a YX rate of tiring with Y being a variable derived from armor and X as a constant. I can't find anything on it. And what are the penalties of exhausted?

If it is just an X rate, they would still be the dominant knight in the game, if its XY, then it would suck. So how is heat exhaustion counted?

[Puzz3D]

More specifically is fatigue just X rate of tiring or a YX rate of tiring with Y being a variable derived from armor and X as a constant. I can't find anything on it. And what are the penalties of exhausted?

It's YX with Y kicking in at armor = 4 and getting worse for values above that. Armor = 7 is is quite bad in the desert, and will eventually tire a unit to exhaustion even if it's just standing and never moves. The shield doesn't contribute to Y. Also, X isn't a constant. It has different values for standing, walking, running, charging, reloading and fighting.

There is a recovery rate which increases as a unit becomes more fatigued. This sets an equilibrium point which is highest for units that are standing because standing has the lowest fatigue rate. Units can recover fatigue up to a ceiling imposed by this equilibrium point. This ceiling in arid conditions, where armor has no effect, is 3 bars at 20 min and two bars at 40 min.

Fatigue combat modifiers:

4 bars (fresh) no penalties
3 bars (quite fresh) no penalties
2 bars (quite tired) -2 atk
1 bars (very tired) -3 atk, -1 def, -3 morale
0 bars (exhausted) -4 atk, -2 def, -6 morale
0 bars (totally exhausted) -6 atk, -3 def, -8 morale

Each combat point lost reduces a man's change to kill by 20%.

[L'Impresario]

Fatigue combat modifiers:

4 bars (fresh) no penalties
3 bars (quite fresh) no penalties
2 bars (quite tired) -2 atk
1 bars (very tired) -3 atk, -1 def, -3 morale
0 bars (exhausted) -4 atk, -2 def, -6 morale
0 bars (totally exhausted) -6 atk, -3 def, -8 morale

Map sizes are:

Large map = 31 x 31 tiles (25 x 25 minus red zone)
Medium map = 26 x 26 tiles (20 x 20 minus red zone)
Small map = 20 x 20 tiles (14 x 14 minus red zone)

Fatigue rate due to walking tested on large, flat, arid map:

1st bar is lost at about 4:40 min
2nd bar is lost at about 11:15 min
3rd bar is lost at about 30:45 min

Fatigue rate due to standing:

1st bar is lost at 20 min
2nd bar is lost at 40 min

Time required to walk edge to edge on a large map:

Speed 4 unit takes 14:30 min
Speed 6 unit takes 9:40 min
Speed 9 unit takes 6:30 min

Time required to walk edge to edge on a small map (56% of large map):

Speed 4 unit takes 8:07 min
Speed 6 unit takes 5:25 min
Speed 9 unit takes 3:38 min

The walking fatigue is recoverable up to whatever ceiling the standing fatigue imposes. So, the player who has been moving his units can equalize fatigue with a player who has never moved, but it takes time

That's from an old thread on 10k heh
There was also one on desert a long time ago but I don't think I can find it ~:handball:
Adding to the numerical wisdom above, I can only add that armour is indeed a factor that reduces the above times needed for the loss of bars, in a quite a geometrical rate, though I guess a unit with armour 10 won't tire visibly faster than one with 9, as certain armour level groups exist (hmm or is it just for AP calculation purposes :dizzy2: ).

EDIT: Argh Yuuki, now you have posted twice heh