Valor bonus for Axmen?

[deleet frans]

Greetings. I'm new to MTW by way of RTW. Playing as the Danes, I have Norway (+1 Vikes) and Lithuania (+1 Woodies). Both Axmen. What building line do Axmen fall under in general? Swords? Would a Master Swordsmith line give me +2 valor Axmen? Everybody knows Vikings, but +1 Woodies with a church to stiffen ~:eek: their morale are a cheap and nasty garrison force/shock troops. Try 'em out.

[littlebktruck]

Hmm...if the building requirement is a fort, then it would seem that you would get the bonus from the highest building of that line, that is, a fortress. Seems a little strange, but that's the best I can think of.

[deleet frans]

What about other Axmen?

[Martok]

Hmm...if the building requirement is a fort, then it would seem that you would get the bonus from the highest building of that line, that is, a fortress. Seems a little strange, but that's the best I can think of.


I think you're right, although I'd never really considered it before either. I may have to start a new Danish campaign tonight and do a little experimenting. I'll try to let you know what I find out.....

[Martok]

What about other Axmen?


What other axemen? Are you talking about the various Viking units the Danes get?

[BAD]

I guess he means, like Varangian Guard (should be the Master Spearmaker), Abyssinian Guard (should be Master Swordsmith), Huscarles (should be Master Swordsmith), Viking Landsmen you get with a keep (so maybe like woodsmen it's the Fortress), Druzinha Cavalry (should be Master HorseBreeder), Mamluk Cavalry (should be Master Horse Breeder).

Hope those are correct anyways. Seems pretty logical. But you never know. =/

[deleet frans]

The fort line doesn't give val bonus does it? :help:

[Mujalumbo]

I have no idea.

I actually had an off-topic question dealing with the woodsmen out of Lithuania. Has anybody bothered to tech them up? I mean, Church+Monastary+Reliquary for morale, maybe bronze or silver armour for defense? It's something I keep meaning to check out, but never get around to it.

(Ditto for Viking Thralls.)

[EatYerGreens]

Forgive my cynicism but it would be an awful shame to go to the huge expense (not to mention time) in building to fortress stage only to find out afterwards that there is no valour bonus at all!

On the development chart, axemen are listed under 'peasants, etc.' and, to me, that's all they are. Cheap and cheerful garrison troops, to repel potential invaders, or to boost province loyalty so as to support high taxation but they are not fantastically effective on the battlefield. Even in huge numerical advantage, I have found their morale can be brittle under a low-star general versus better quality troops.

You might be tempted, as I was, to use a low-rated general specifically for garrison duties, so as to free up the best ones to fight elsewhere. However, using a high-rated general gives them the valour bonus you seek anyway. That seems to be the cheaper option.


I think that the AI responds primarily to numbers of defenders, more than quality, when assessing whether to attack you or not. It certainly benefits from using autocalc when AI factions fight each other but what that means is that by your being able to build a large garrison on the cheap, all you do is guarantee that it brings a truly massive army when it wants to attack you and they won't be able to put up much of a resistance. You're far better off spending the money on developing more robust troop types. Treat the axemen as a stop-gap to give you the time to do this development, then gradually demobilise them, when the time is right.

[Mujalumbo]

Norway has a couple of trading resources, Lithuania has three, in vanilla, anyway. Your mileage may vary with a mod. With that in mind, I can justify teching up to Citadel in both provinces purely for the Master Merchant; Fortress isn't too far behind.

V2 Vikings would put them close to Huscarles, stat-wise, no? I have a hard time saying no to a Very Good attack unit with armour piercing...

Of course, this is all moot if a Fortress probably DOESN'T confer a valour bonus to these troops.

[BAD]

Just to big up the woodsmen a bit. . . they cost 75 florins. SEVENTY FIVE! Now if I can manage to charge them in to the back of any unit they are gonna be causing some dang cost efficient kills. Especially if you build them in Lithuania. Consider the stats if built there:-

Charge Bonus 8
Melee Bonus 2
Defence Bonus 0
Armour Level 2
Morale level 0

Yup Charge 8, the same as Chivalric Knights. 8) Plus the Armour Piercing bonus. :)

People always forget the cost. :rolleyes:

[deleet frans]

My Lithuanian woodsmen are tearing much better units apart. Their low morale can be upped with churches. A bit of defence helps too.

[Mujalumbo]

Thanks, frans. That kinda answers my question. I think I'll fire up some MTW and do some investing in Lithuania. I have a feeling that province is going to become mighty pious and renown for their armourers...

[the tokai]

The fort line doesn't give val bonus does it? :help:
No, it doesn't. from the .com:



Maeda Toshiie[/b] (http://p223.ezboard.com/bshoguntotalwar.showUserPublicProfile?gid=maedatoshiie@shoguntotalwar)]
Command stars:

+1atk, +1 def, +1 morale per 2 stars of commanding general (regardless of general being on the field or not (but not when dead). This will also show as +1 v on the campaign map. This is also why Byzantines in Early are so powerful. +2 morale instead if within 50m of the general.

Valour bonus (from buildings, main campaign only, different rules for VI):

+1v for Master level buildings (including county militia). Units that require Master level buildings will NOT gain the +1v. Basically if the unit requires a swordsmith (of the first 3 levels), it will gain 1v if a master swordsmith is present. If the unit has multiple building prequisites, it would depend on the main weapon on the unit (bowyer for foot bow/x-bow units BUT with exceptions, horse breeder for all cavalry that require horse breeder buildings). Gendarmes do not require horse breeders but county militia. Either way they do not gain any valour bonus. Since I cannot think of any reason to train them, I cant care less about them...

Note: Only buildings that are labelled +1v would grant valour, not other buildings like master armourers, baronial estates and fortresses, even if they are lvl4 buildings.

Note2: Futuwaas do NOT gain from Master Bowyer, only Master Swordsmith. Seems that swordsmith takes precedence over bowyer.

Note3: Janissary Inf DO gain +1v from Master Swordsmith, since Swordsmith takes precedence over the Bowyer.

Note4: Horse Breeder takes precedence over all other requirements for non knightly cavalry.

The list of units is rather long so I will not list them here. Some examples:

Faris: Master Horse Breeder
FMAA: Master Swordsmith
Chivalric Sgt: Master Spearmaker
Halberdier: County Militia
Longbowmen: Maste Bowyer

Side rule: All Knight units do not gain valour from MHB or Baronial Estate (HRE and Italians only). When I speak of knights, I speak of those that require the royal palace line of improvements. (VG which require the royal palace seems to be the only exception to the rule.)

Command stars outside of listed heros (stars would range from 1 to 3, dependent on the command of the ruler and his influence):

Units with "preferred" in the column inside the unit stats file for general candidate will usually gain some stars when they appear. Occasional 1 stars would appear for those with "ok" and none for "discouraged". Those with "preferred" are mainly elite units. Use the Gnome editor to check if you wish.

Incidentally, the starting ranks of your admirals is also dependent on the command rank and influence of your ruler.

http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm5.showMessage?topicID=16723.topic

[the tokai]

The fort line doesn't give val bonus does it? :help:
No, it doesn't. From the .com:



Command stars:

+1atk, +1 def, +1 morale per 2 stars of commanding general (regardless of general being on the field or not (but not when dead). This will also show as +1 v on the campaign map. This is also why Byzantines in Early are so powerful. +2 morale instead if within 50m of the general.

Valour bonus (from buildings, main campaign only, different rules for VI):

+1v for Master level buildings (including county militia). Units that require Master level buildings will NOT gain the +1v. Basically if the unit requires a swordsmith (of the first 3 levels), it will gain 1v if a master swordsmith is present. If the unit has multiple building prequisites, it would depend on the main weapon on the unit (bowyer for foot bow/x-bow units BUT with exceptions, horse breeder for all cavalry that require horse breeder buildings). Gendarmes do not require horse breeders but county militia. Either way they do not gain any valour bonus. Since I cannot think of any reason to train them, I cant care less about them...

Note: Only buildings that are labelled +1v would grant valour, not other buildings like master armourers, baronial estates and fortresses, even if they are lvl4 buildings.

Note2: Futuwaas do NOT gain from Master Bowyer, only Master Swordsmith. Seems that swordsmith takes precedence over bowyer.

Note3: Janissary Inf DO gain +1v from Master Swordsmith, since Swordsmith takes precedence over the Bowyer.

Note4: Horse Breeder takes precedence over all other requirements for non knightly cavalry.

The list of units is rather long so I will not list them here. Some examples:

Faris: Master Horse Breeder
FMAA: Master Swordsmith
Chivalric Sgt: Master Spearmaker
Halberdier: County Militia
Longbowmen: Maste Bowyer

Side rule: All Knight units do not gain valour from MHB or Baronial Estate (HRE and Italians only). When I speak of knights, I speak of those that require the royal palace line of improvements. (VG which require the royal palace seems to be the only exception to the rule.)

Command stars outside of listed heros (stars would range from 1 to 3, dependent on the command of the ruler and his influence):

Units with "preferred" in the column inside the unit stats file for general candidate will usually gain some stars when they appear. Occasional 1 stars would appear for those with "ok" and none for "discouraged". Those with "preferred" are mainly elite units. Use the Gnome editor to check if you wish.

Incidentally, the starting ranks of your admirals is also dependent on the command rank and influence of your ruler.


http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm5.showMessage?topicID=16723.topic

[the tokai]

Ok does my message look very weird to anyone else or is it just my browser messing things up?

Hm and when I edit or make a new post all seems to be normal ~:confused: