Another victory for guns

[Strike For The South]

I got this off Msnbc the link wasnt working so

WASHINGTON - The Senate voted Friday to shield firearms manufacturers, dealers and importers from lawsuits brought by victims of gun crimes, a measure opponents said had been ordered up by the gun lobby.

The 65-31 vote passed a bill that supporters said protects the industry from financial disaster and bankruptcy caused by damage lawsuits.

"This bill says go after the criminal, don't go after the law-abiding gun manufacturer or the law-abiding gun seller," said bill sponsor Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho.

But Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., and other opponents said the gun industry needs no such special protection. "This bill has one motivation - payback by the Bush administration and the Republican leadership of the Congress to the powerful special interest of the National Rifle Association," he said.

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., yanked similar legislation from debate last year when Democrats successfully attached an extension of the ban on assault-style weapons and the NRA dropped its support.

Republicans picked up four more Senate seats in last November's election, emboldening gun rights supporters to try again.

The House passed a similar bill last year but has taken no action on it this year.

Democrats won inclusion this year of a new requirement that each handgun be sold with a separate child safety or locking device, unless purchased by government officials or police officers. Any violation could be punished by the suspension of a dealer's license, a $10,000 fine, or both.

Gunmakers still face product liability
Craig said the bill does not block gunmakers and dealers from facing product liability, negligence or breach of contract suits.

Its opponents, however, say the bill effectively exempts gun manufacturers from liability. They also say dealers sometimes let weapons get into the hands of people the law says shouldn't have them.

Democrats tried and lost attempts to insert special provisions in the legislation that would let children and police retain the right to sue, along with another amendment that would have let individuals but not municipalities retain the right to sue.

"Should those whose actions lead to the death or injury of a child get a free pass?" asked Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J., who sponsored one amendment.

Supporters of the liability bill said the changes would have gutted the bill.

The Senate also brushed aside a Kennedy amendment that would have banned hollow-tipped, so-called "cop killer" bullets.

The gun industry gave 88 percent of its campaign contributions, or $1.2 million, to Republicans in the 2004 election cycle. Gun control advocates, meanwhile, gave 98 percent of their contributions, or $93,700, to Democrats during that election, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.

~:cheers: Our Goverment got something right this is a reason to celebrate ~:cheers:

[Azi Tohak]

Well, yes, I agree. Stupid people making money from dumber actions...always can use protection from that (why do condoms spring to mind right now?)

But here comes the hate mail!

Duck and cover!

Azi

[scooter_the_shooter]

This is great news. I will celebrate by buying a new gun( i have been saving for a while now any way but now i have an excuse to go get it. ~D ) ~:cheers:


It looks like the gun grabbers have lost in the USA. Most of the country has ccw, the assault weapon ban is gone, and now this ~:cheers:

The 2nd amendment is saved :balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2: :balloon2:

[rasoforos]

Does this mean ppl can continue worshipping guns ( to cover other deficiencies ) and that the murder rate will continue to be 5-10 times higher than any other developed country and than most developing ones?

yay! :help:

[Crazed Rabbit]

Oddly enough, the murder rate (and all violent crime) has been dropping for the last 30 years, while the amount of guns has been increasing!

And I don't get what's with antis who all seem to think guns are just a way to make one's self bigger, or to prove that they are more manly. Maybe to you they are, but to us, they are just a tool for defending yourself and a way to have fun.
Oh, what was it Freud said? Ah yes; "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Maybe that explains some people's poor attempts at satire.


It looks like the gun grabbers have lost in the USA. Most of the country has ccw, the assault weapon ban is gone, and now this

The 2nd amendment is saved

Don't celebrate too early, eternal vigilance is required to remain free. Look at Cali: banning certian calibers because they are scary. We must continue the assualt until all men are free.

Crazed Rabbit

[Strike For The South]

Does this mean ppl can continue worshipping guns ( to cover other deficiencies ) and that the murder rate will continue to be 5-10 times higher than any other developed country and than most developing ones?

yay! :help:

I've never quite understood why when someone takes another persons life by use of a firearm people want to punish the whole gun owning community :dizzy2:

[scooter_the_shooter]

Does this mean ppl can continue worshipping guns ( to cover other deficiencies ) and that the murder rate will continue to be 5-10 times higher than any other developed country and than most developing ones?

yay! :help:



Take a look at DC..... They have the highest murder rate in the US and oddly enough guns are banned there.......(the ban will be gone in a couple moths though ~:cheers: )



Look at all the places in the US where they are banned. They have the highest crime and murder rates.

[scooter_the_shooter]

Does this mean ppl can continue worshipping guns ( to cover other deficiencies ) and that the murder rate will continue to be 5-10 times higher than any other developed country and than most developing ones?

yay! :help:


Tell me have you ever fired a gun? Have you ever owned one? Have you ever so much as touched one?

My guess is probably not or you would not have such a narrow minded view.

You want to take them away from all of us. I want people to have the CHOICE of owning one or not.


Why dont you get after cigarettes they are more harmful then guns. cigarettes are harmful. Guns only have the potential to be.


Read that article I posted in the LWC

[Slyspy]

I'm pleased to see the child safety lock requirement for handguns. Seems very sensible to me as IIRC most child casualties are cause by firearms accidents at home?

Not sure why hollow points shouldn't be illegal though. No doubt an expert can enlighten me.

Also happy to see that the compensation culture has been brought to a halt somewhere. Now for everything else! However I wonder will it have a knock-on effect on corporate responsibility as a whole?

Being a Brit I have had little contact with guns (apart from some target shooting which I enjoyed as a challenge) and I don't feel particularly threatened by not owning one. Also I am happy with the size of my manhood lol ~;)

Besides which I could always nip out and buy a crossbow (a more civilized weapon, for a more civilized age) so all is not lost!

[scooter_the_shooter]

In america you are allowed to carry a gun (if you meet certain standards) The people who do that (and there are quite a few) need hollow points.


And why do you consider a cross bow civilized ~D . There are civilized looking guns out there like the 1911 or browning hi power.

[Slyspy]

Yes I know that you can own a gun. But why hollow points? What makes them so special that the Democrats want to ban them while the Republicans don't? If they go by the nick-name "cop killers" it seems likely that the police would want them to be illegal as well?

On an unrelated note I find corporate sponsorship of political parties through "donations" particularly distasteful whether it is the gun industry or fluffy teddy bear manufacturers.

Civilized? You probably realise the Obi Wan connection. Also slightly harder to go on a high school ramage with a crossbow, though not impossible. ~D

[scooter_the_shooter]

you are allowed to carry a gun with you in the US for protection. And there are a few advatages to hollow points

1 more stopping power

2 it is less likley to go through the bad guy and harm an innocent.

And criminals almost never buy them they are pretty expensive. Criminals usually have the cheapest guns with the cheapest ammo.

[scooter_the_shooter]

Y

Civilized? You probably realise the Obi Wan connection. Also slightly harder to go on a high school ramage with a crossbow, though not impossible. ~D


The columbine kids broke enough laws to go to jail for over 1000 years before they even fired a shot.

from one of the pro gun sites i go to



Klebold and Harris broke enough federal firearms laws to put themselves into jail for over 1000 years before they even fired the first shot.

They built 2 short barreled shotguns. Without paying $200 making tax and registration in the National Firearms Act database possession will get you up to 10 years in prison, PER count.

They built 97 pipebombs and propane bombs. Each one is a Destructive Device that required registration in the NFA database and $200 making tax. Each count can get up to 10 years in federal prison.

They did not pay the taxes associated with making those weapons so they get hit with tax evasion too.

2 short barreled shotguns = 20 years
97 destructive devices = 970 years

Then add however many years for tax evasion, bringing a firearm to a high school, illegal concealed carry and it is easily well over 1000 years.

There is also a $10000 fine per COUNT on National Firearms Act violations. Those 2 punks not only faced over 1000 years in prison but also $990000 in fines.

If anyone thinks more gun laws would have stopped columbine, they obviously have their heads up their asses. Just offhand I can list enough offenses to put the Columbine shooters into jail for 10 lifetimes, BEFORE they even shot anyone.

[Slyspy]

The columbine kids broke enough laws to go to jail for over 1000 years before they even fired a shot.

from one of the pro gun sites i go to

Oh for goodness sake it was a joke. I wasn't starting a debate on the rights and wrongs for firearms. Though it is amusing that most of that jail time would be for tax evasion (err.. we use the propane bombs for fishing....). Its just like Al Capone but without the Prohibition-era style!

[Crazed Rabbit]

Yes I know that you can own a gun. But why hollow points? What makes them so special that the Democrats want to ban them while the Republicans don't? If they go by the nick-name "cop killers" it seems likely that the police would want them to be illegal as well?

It's just a name antis use to get an emotional rise out of people who don't know anything about guns.

Crazed Rabbit

[scooter_the_shooter]

Sorry slippsy :bow:

I like your views on here they really are moderate. Not like the liberals in disguise at the moderate club.

[Xiahou]

I'm pleased to see the child safety lock requirement for handguns. Seems very sensible to me as IIRC most child casualties are cause by firearms accidents at home?

Not sure why hollow points shouldn't be illegal though. No doubt an expert can enlighten me.The child locks thing sounds stupid- but its not worth getting worried about. Honestly, are there any reputable gun makers/sellers that don't already include locks with their weapons? And so what if its federally required? If people are going to be irresponsible, having a trigger lock in your junk drawer isn't going to help. But, like I said, not a big deal.

As to hollow points- IMO, if you're going to use a handgun for self-defense, its stupid not to use hollow points. FMJ can over penetrate and hit things or people behind your target. Also, hollow points are much more likely to stop an assailant than FMJ. FMJ could go right thru a person, and they may bleed to death later (or not), but it's less likely to stop an attack.

[Slyspy]

Oh I see now. For stopping power the HP round is superior. I presume the FMJ as other qualities? Improved AP properties etc? Sort of like the M16 vs AK thing. Which round do the police use, and which is the most common overall?

Rabbit don't be upset that I regard your reply to be as partisan as you claim the term "cop killers" to be. Is it really just a label or is it a reputation?

As for the lock, well it seems sensible to have it enshrined in law. If a dealer breaks that one he may tend to commit other, less obvious, violations as well. This legislation is, after all, about protecting legitimate dealers rather than protecting children from bullets.

[scooter_the_shooter]

Oh I see now. For stopping power the HP round is superior. I presume the FMJ as other qualities? Improved AP properties etc? Sort of like the M16 vs AK thing. Which round do the police use, and which is the most common overall?

Rabbit don't be upset that I regard your reply to be as partisan as you claim the term "cop killers" to be. Is it really just a label or is it a reputation?

As for the lock, well it seems sensible to have it enshrined in law. If a dealer breaks that one he may tend to commit other, less obvious, violations as well. This legislation is, after all, about protecting legitimate dealers rather than protecting children from bullets.


The media hates guns in the US they demonize them every chance they get. That is why they made the term "cop killer"

The police use hollow points because they cant have bullets going through people.

[Slyspy]

Surely then FMJ should be the "cop killer" of choice since they wear flak jackets? Or is it just that since HP is more common so more cops are killed by it? Either way thanks for the info.

I'm sorry ceasar but I don't buy the left-wing media thing. How could I, not living in the States? It smacks of paranoia to those with no experience of the US media beyond superficial TV news and the trashy articles so often quoted in this forum! This insistence may be one reason why the Euros on this forum sometimes find it hard to swallow some of the "Conservative Club" arguments.

[scooter_the_shooter]

Hollow points are not more common because they cost... ALOT,... most criminals use cheap full metal jackets. Like wolf ammunition(it is the cheapest POS ammo on the market it almost ruined one of my guns)

Criminals almost always buy the cheapest guns and ammo. (unless they steal them)



"cop killer bullet" was just a word made up by anti gun people to further their arguments, most cops are killed by full metal jacket ammunition.


here are the price differences

http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/product301.html

http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/product484.html

FMJ means full metal jacket

[Slyspy]

I like the technical details and diagram lol. Would it not be easier to say "kills things dead messily"? :rifle:

[Crazed Rabbit]

Rabbit don't be upset that I regard your reply to be as partisan as you claim the term "cop killers" to be. Is it really just a label or is it a reputation?

Well, what is a 'cop killer' bullet? Is it a bullet specially designed to kill cops? Will it just bounce off anyone who isn't a cop? Of course not. All bullets are designed to be as deadly as possible, no matter what their target is. Since a cop is just a normal human, there is nothing special a bullet would need to do to cause them harm.

As I said, the term is just made up to cause fear among people and try to make them think that somehow these bullets are more deadly, when in fact they are not. They use this fear as a base to push for banning some ammunition.

Crazed Rabbit

[Slyspy]

That is not what I was after. See my previous reply to ceasar as to why such statements are of no use when convering with someone from outside of the USA. With no exposure to such things we require proof and explantions. That is why I asked whether the HP ammo was common or whether most police casualties had been caused by it. Quite clearly if hit with HP (cop or not) the chances of being seriously (fatally?) injured are higher, unless I have been wrongly informed in previous posts. I'm looking for information not hyperbole and argument. Sure, I could use google and suchlike but forums are a more human way of communicating!

[Crazed Rabbit]

Well, I was talking more about the term 'cop killer bullets' than the relationship between hollow point and full metal jacket rounds, which you seem to understand correctly, to my knowledge.

Crazed Rabbit

[makkyo]

I doubt any kind of ban on firearms would work. The ones that would commit the crime would find these weapons regardless of any kind of law, while leaving the victim defenceless, who would probably go through all of the legal means to get a gun, but would be unable. It's kind of the same idea behind the ban on alcohol. The people who want to drink will drink, no matter what the government says.

[Azi Tohak]

I doubt any kind of ban on firearms would work. The ones that would commit the crime would find these weapons regardless of any kind of law, while leaving the victim defenceless, who would probably go through all of the legal means to get a gun, but would be unable. It's kind of the same idea behind the ban on alcohol. The people who want to drink will drink, no matter what the government says.

Bingo! I think this is what so many gun control activists don't realize.

And makkyo, your title does seem very appropriate. I don't think I've ever seen you around here before.

Hi! ~:cheers:

Azi

[bmolsson]

Why dont you get after cigarettes they are more harmful then guns. cigarettes are harmful.


I believe that the tobacco industry been sued in US ?

Also to note, cigarettes are only dangerous if you use them, just like guns.... ~:grouphug:

[JAG]

Does this mean ppl can continue worshipping guns ( to cover other deficiencies ) and that the murder rate will continue to be 5-10 times higher than any other developed country and than most developing ones?

yay! :help:

My friend, as ever you speak total sense. :bow:

[Spetulhu]

Well, I was talking more about the term 'cop killer bullets' than the relationship between hollow point and full metal jacket rounds, which you seem to understand correctly, to my knowledge.


I thought cop killer rounds was armor piercing ammo? Police often remember to wear body armor, so something designed to go through armor would be a cop killer. ~:confused:

[Spetulhu]

The police use hollow points because they cant have bullets going through people.

Considering how often people don't hit anything at all the concern about overpenetration is just silly. Why would the bullets hitting the target be any more dangerous than the ones sprayed around the neighborhood?

The reason for using HP ammo is that it gives a slightly better chance of hitting a blood vessel or something on it's way through your body. It's not usually the little bullet hole itself that kills you, it's the blood loss.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I thought cop killer rounds was armor piercing ammo? Police often remember to wear body armor, so something designed to go through armor would be a cop killer.

Like I said, all bullets are designed to do maximum damage. For hollow points, its the expansion after entering the body. For FMJs, its penetration. There are no 'armor piercing' rounds for pistols, unless you count FMJ, which has been around for hundreds of years.


My friend, as ever you speak total sense.

And yet, as always, the 'total sense' of anti-gunners is soundly defeated by the facts of reality. I will not bother quoting what has already been posted, that you, coincidentally, so neatly ignored, that sundered his position from any logic it could ever have hoped to contain.

Crazed Rabbit

[Spetulhu]

There are no 'armor piercing' rounds for pistols, unless you count FMJ, which has been around for hundreds of years.

The Russians have several specific AP rounds for pistols since the 90s.

[Xiahou]

I thought cop killer rounds was armor piercing ammo? Police often remember to wear body armor, so something designed to go through armor would be a cop killer. ~:confused:I always thought "cop killers" were originally in reference to teflon coated bullets. A quick google search yields this. (http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/copkill.html)

But basically, yes the term is all hype.
Some anti-gun members of Congress saw the light too. Here was an opportunity to get all sorts of free personal publicity in all sorts of media. All they had to do was introduce a bill with a catchy title to outlaw the import, manufacture of sale of..of what? The title, having been stolen from NBC, was easy: "A bill to stop the proliferation of 'cop-killer' bullets." "Cop-Killer" was the most exciting label to come along since "Saturday Night Special" and just as vague. The gun grabbers sure think of great buzzwords don't they?


The reason for using HP ammo is that it gives a slightly better chance of hitting a blood vessel or something on it's way through your body. It's not usually the little bullet hole itself that kills you, it's the blood loss. If you're going to wait for a gunshot to bleed someone to death, it'd be useless for defense. I'm not an expert by any means, but I think the idea is that JHP can deliver more of the bullets force into what its hitting, creating a larger temporary cavity. Im sure you could find a better explanation on Google if you really want it- but its not about bleeding to death.

[Don Corleone]

I'm not going to justify Rasafaros' post with an answer. When I see some intelligence on this issue on his part, I will. Jag cheering him on just proves my point.

Spethelu: Some brief explanations of ammunition type:

-Bullet: Technically speaking, the lead (or other material) slug only. The casing, the powder and the bullet together form a cartridge.
-Casing: the usually brass base of a cartridge (frequently referred to as simply brass) Holds the elements of the cartridge together.
-Powder: Main projectile mechanism, a volatile mixture of gunpowder that when lit by the primer, explodes, forcing the bullet out of the casing and down the barrel.
-Primer: A small, impact-driven charge inserted into the bottom of the casing. When the firing hammer of the gun strikes the casing, it detonates, igniting the main powder load.

-Bullet types: Regular (just an aerodynamically shaped chunk of lead, cheapest and hence most common) full metal jacket (the bullet is sheathed in copper, tin or some other metal to help the lead to maintain it's shape at impact) hollow point(no jacket, as the name implies, the center of the bullet is hollow, as though somebody drilled out the center of the bullet, weak structure that collapses at impact) tipped (the tip of the bullet is tipped with silicon or some other substance)

Why to use the above:

Regular: cheap, easy to reload.
Jacketed: More penetrating power, but mostly because if you shoot a lot, it makes it easier to clean your gun (lead isn't scraping along the inside of the barrel)
Hollow point: More stopping power, less penetrating power. Won't go through walls or bodies.
Tipped: Designed specifically to go through a bulletproof vest. The tip allows the bullet to penetrate most forms of body armor before it starts to flatten & deform.

Tipped bullets are illegal for anybody but the police to carry in all 50 states.

The media can't even keep it's 'scare vocabulary' correct. The correct anti-gun term for a hollow-point bullet is "surgeons' nightmares" due to fragmenting. The correct anti-gun term for full metal jackets is 'neighborhood killers' due to the continued striking range of stray bullets.

At some point, you have to understand the media has negative spin on every firearm related piece of equipment or supply out there. I don't know what it is, but I'm sure they have a story to tell over why black-powder rifles should be illegal (the muzzle loaders).

[Grey_Fox]

I may be wrong, but arn't hollowpoints banned in warfare by the Geneva Convention?

[scooter_the_shooter]

I believe that the tobacco industry been sued in US ?

Also to note, cigarettes are only dangerous if you use them, just like guns.... ~:grouphug:


If you smoke it is harmful... shooting up paper is not harmful

[A.Saturnus]

I would say this decision is sensible whereever you stand on gun bans. If society allows the ownership of guns, it would obviously be unfair to punish those make them available.

[scooter_the_shooter]

I may be wrong, but arn't hollowpoints banned in warfare by the Geneva Convention?


No its the houge convention that did it. I wish the USA didnt sign that thing :embarassed:

[bmolsson]

If you smoke it is harmful... shooting up paper is not harmful

If you don't light it, just keep it in your mouth and look cool, then it's not harmful...... ~;)

[scooter_the_shooter]

~:confused: So what you want me to keep my gun unloaded and stand there ~:confused:

Why is the antis here hate me going to the range aiming at a human like paper target and shooting it.

Are you some how offended ~:confused:




PS I dont want cigarettes banned if people want to put that !@#$ in their bodies go ahead its their choice.

[Ronin]

~:confused: So what you want me to keep my gun unloaded and stand there ~:confused:

Why is the antis here hate me going to the range aiming at a human like paper target and shooting it.

Are you some how offended ~:confused:


PS I dont want cigarettes banned if people want to put that !@#$ in their bodies go ahead its their choice.


hey....if guns came equiped with some gadget so that you could only shoot yourself i´d be all for them.

unfortunatelly you can use them not only to put lead into yourself..you can do it to other people too....

not really much of a paralell there.

[scooter_the_shooter]

Just because you have something that could be used like that doesn't mean you will.

A guns main function is not killing in the US and they are a vital tool.

Guns are used for defense 2.5 million times a year. And there are around (I am not sure i think this is the number) 30,000 accidents.

These numbers are not that far-fetched.... if you look at them because depending on how biased the source you look at is there are 60 to 80 million gun owners in america.


You also need to defend from critters too, there are some wild dog packs where I live and they will tear you up. What do you want people to do.... wave a stick at them and get killed.


PS dont go to the brady campaign and cite numbers of kids getting killed... they count gang members in there plus they also count 18 and 19 year olds.