View Full Version : how loyal are you to your country
scooter_the_shooter
08-07-2005, 00:54
I am a fanatic , I am willing to kill people so the flag does not touch the ground.
I love my country, I have or will join the military, I respect all national symbols and know the pledge and antham by heart.
same as above only no military
I like my country some times I say the pledge
I dont care I only show some pride for my country when I have too.
Countries are lines on a map, who gives a !@#$
I am a draft dodging,flag burning, coward and I like to spit on veterans. I hate this place but dont complain about all that welfare i get :embarassed:
.......................
How loyal are you
Byzantine Prince
08-07-2005, 00:59
Why did you not turn this into a poll. Maybe I spoke too soon.
Ok well IMO: In today's world countries are just lines on a map. Most people I know here (where I live) come from all over the world and I believe the world is becoming more and more globalized. Soon it will not matter what nationality one is at all as long as they come from a developed country.
Uesugi Kenshin
08-07-2005, 01:00
If I was called up I would go to war. Despite it's many problems the US is a pretty good country all in all and I would be willing to fight for it, but if I died in the field it would be for my squad, not my country.
That being said the US needs to make a bunch of changes...
ShadesPanther
08-07-2005, 01:02
I noticed in fahrenheiht 9/11 the woman said she wouldn't let the flag touch the ground. Why do some not let it touch the ground?
Anyway I do love my country but not to insane amounts (unlike some of the ********* in my country who ruin it for everyone). I wouldn't really live anywhere else and I am happy in my little country. I don't realy want to join the militaryfor numerous reasons. I do know the anthem although we technically do have an anthem (it is usually skipped ~;) )
scooter_the_shooter
08-07-2005, 01:03
!@#$ I tried to turn it into poll to late... spent to much time editing it.
scooter_the_shooter
08-07-2005, 01:05
Well forget those wierd choices I put up (its to late to get them to work) just put how loyal you are.
scooter_the_shooter
08-07-2005, 01:44
jag how loyal are you????
Crazed Rabbit
08-07-2005, 01:44
I take it JAG isn't a fanatic.
As for me- I would go to war if they needed me.
Crazed Rabbit
Del Arroyo
08-07-2005, 01:46
I'd be willing to risk dying for my country, but that has less to do with patriotism and more to do with a willingness to risk my life.
I believe that the Nation is something to be honored, respected, and served but I don't have any illusions about it. It is a part of my blood and my psyche and I have an irreversible bias in its favor. But I wouldn't be willing to do anything stupid just because someone ELSE said it was "patriotism".
Frankly I believe that Bush and his ilk are the beginning of the end for our tour as the dominant world power, and it makes me sad. If it became necessary I'd be willing to serve in any war we were involved in, even if I disagreed with its beginning-- because once begun, the only good way out of a war is to WIN.
I have a lot of reservations about my people and culture and I believe we're headed for problems. We have alot of bad aspects and some very good ones, and traveling a bit in the world I've had a chance to see some contrasts.
The way we're going, there may come a time when our Nation ceases to mean what it once did and would no longer be a thing worth dying for.
DA
Kagemusha
08-07-2005, 01:49
Im willing to defend my country if necessary.I think this is a fine country.
Tribesman
08-07-2005, 02:01
Countries are lines on a map, who gives a !@#$
Says it all really ~:cheers:
Sasaki Kojiro
08-07-2005, 02:37
My loyalty has never been tested; I have no idea.
ShadesPanther
08-07-2005, 02:39
because once begun, the only good way out of a war is to WIN.
DA
technically not. There can be a pyrrhic victory or a victory like the Western Allies got in 1918.
I think I would join the military in time of dire need (like a major war) unless of course my job is deemed to important to leave or something like that. but other wise I wouldn't want to.
Louis VI the Fat
08-07-2005, 02:45
I'll have to go for:
Countries are lines on a map, who gives a !@#$
But I'm quite happy to have been born on this side of that line, though... ~;)
Edit: Oh, and you can use my flag as toilet paper for all I care.
I noticed in fahrenheiht 9/11 the woman said she wouldn't let the flag touch the ground. Why do some not let it touch the ground?
It's military thing. In the old days the flag was representation of the monarch, they were touched by their very hand. And thus theoretically had some of the kings grace rub off in it. After the Napoleonic era the flag becomes a symbol of the countries honour and grace. Letting it touch the ground is symbolically like using the constitution as an arse wipe or bitch-slapping the queen.
Papewaio
08-07-2005, 04:35
I'm loyal to principles and those that uphold them. If my government suddenly turned into an apartheid state or other monstrosity I would not be loyal at all. I would use the ballot box and other measures where possible to defend my way of life within the system. However an utterly corrupt government would find me acting back in kind to it.
discovery1
08-07-2005, 04:36
Not very, I think. Although, if a major power invaded the continental US, sign me up. I am somewhat loyal to the ideas behind it's creation though.
Reverend Joe
08-07-2005, 06:54
I am actually very loyal to my country. That is why I hate the people in power, because they are corrupting and befowling a wonderful country. Go ahead and slander Bush, I don't care. Hell I'll even join in. But if youy try to burn a flag, or dress up like Uncle Sam and go around drinking from an oil can, and I will turn my fury on you.
Edit: I just noticed I accidentally spelled "country" like "poultry". Mistake corrected- but that was pretty funny...
"I am very loyal to my poultry- mess with my chickens and you're dead meat, pal!"
Divinus Arma
08-07-2005, 07:28
You should reopen this with a poll.
I am somewhere between:
I am a fanatic , I am willing to kill people so the flag does not touch the ground.
I love my country, I have or will join the military, I respect all national symbols and know the pledge and antham by heart.
I am willing to kill people so none of my countrymen die. While that by itself is not so severe, it is the number of people I am willing to kill for my country that sickens even me. The price of military service is not your life or limb. It is your immortal soul. But I am willing to bear that burden so that my extended family of Americans can enjoy the pleasure of artificial safety. And you have no idea just how fake our safety is until you have been there.
My wife. Your brother. His great grandfather. Your son. My sister. We are all bound under this flag. Those who serve know how truly truly precious this freedom we have earned really is.
swirly_the_toilet_fish
08-07-2005, 07:42
My loyalty is to hearth and home. I would throw myself down if it meant protecting my family. And despite the problems with it, I would defend my country to my last breath. It is my home, I choose to live here because there is no other place on this earth I would feel most at home.
And by the way, most Christian religions condone killing during wartime, but do not permit murder. Murdering a man without just cause costs you your soul, however, killing(and/or dying) to protect your family and home is a just cause and has been supported in numerous crusades, etc.
Divinus Arma
08-07-2005, 07:51
My loyalty is to hearth and home. I would throw myself down if it meant protecting my family. And despite the problems with it, I would defend my country to my last breath. It is my home, I choose to live here because there is no other place on this earth I would feel most at home.
And by the way, most Christian religions condone killing during wartime, but do not permit murder. Murdering a man without just cause costs you your soul, however, killing(and/or dying) to protect your family and home is a just cause and has been supported in numerous crusades, etc.
Oh I see how it is with you.
Invading Iraq: bad.
Crusades: Good.
Right. ~:handball:
Strike For The South
08-07-2005, 08:12
Below fanatic above love I will lay my life on the line to protect my country and what it stands for
Ser Clegane
08-07-2005, 08:17
I took the liberty to add a poll to this thread (as this seems to have been the original intention).
FYI - I left out the original last choice intentionally as it is obviously only meant to insult people who do not fit your picture of nationalism ... instead I added the obligatory "GAH" option ~:)
swirly_the_toilet_fish
08-07-2005, 08:35
Oh I see how it is with you.
Invading Iraq: bad.
Crusades: Good.
Right. ~:handball:
Relax. There is a difference in defending your home from a threat, rather than pouncing on one that isn't even really present. "Can you say preemptive?" Yes I can but we found nothing and still remain. Damn. We're still defending America from a country that couldn't withstand a two week invasion. :laugh4:
Forgot my smiley.
ShadesWolf
08-07-2005, 08:39
I am a fanatic , I am willing to kill people so the flag does not touch the ground.
Well I love my country and would defend her and her interests.
Divinus Arma
08-07-2005, 09:00
Relax. There is a difference in defending your home from a threat, rather than pouncing on one that isn't even really present. "Can you say preemptive?" Yes I can but we found nothing and still remain. Damn. We're still defending America from a country that couldn't withstand a two week invasion. :laugh4:
Forgot my smiley.
Please view our continuing discussion for my reply to this well thought-out and clearly articulated argument on Iraq.
Edit: Its in that other thread. Th one with turds and other enlightened conversation.
Es Arkajae
08-07-2005, 09:09
I'd kill every single person in this thread for my country..... what?~D
As for "Thou shalt not kill" is actually "Thou shalt not murder", murder is wrongful death, killing as a legitimate part of war is not murder. Afterall it would be fairly strange to preach against killing and then go right ahead and tell Johsua to crack skulls in the Promised Land.
As for war I am usually amused by people who support war 'only' if its in defence.
Such people need to wake up to themselves, most of them live in the Western world which makes up something like 10% or so of the worlds population but uses anything up to 80% of available global resources. Do they think that the other places of the world like this state of affairs?
I like my comfortable lifestyle and the way of life in my country (which has only 20 million people yet takes up an entire continent), and I have no problem with maintaining Western hegemony ultimately through force of arms. Sure it would be nice if everyone could have what they wanted or needed but this is the real world. And these weaker nations and places shouldn't complain too much either, afterall they're all trying to become successful themselves and I don't blame them for that, if I was one of them I would too. ~:)
swirly_the_toilet_fish
08-07-2005, 09:11
Please view our continuing discussion for my reply to this well thought-out and clearly articulated argument on Iraq.
Edit: Its in that other thread. Th one with turds and other enlightened conversation.
Regardless, in here we are in agreement that we would both stand for our country despite our present views in that thread.
Divinus Arma
08-07-2005, 09:12
Regardless, in here we are in agreement that we would both stand for our country despite our present views in that thread.
Fair enough. ~:cheers:
swirly_the_toilet_fish
08-07-2005, 09:15
Indeed. It is one thing to have an enemy, another to have a respected opponent.
~:cheers:
Silver Rusher
08-07-2005, 09:45
I'll have to go for:But I'm quite happy to have been born on this side of that line, though... ~;)
Edit: Oh, and you can use my flag as toilet paper for all I care.
Ah, it's good to see the fro- I mean, French people rebelling against that A¬$£|-|0l_£ Chirac. :charge:
ON the topic, I love my country and would kill anyone who wanted to burn it the flag.
Very loyal to my country. Allthough the government is a bunch of ****
King Henry V
08-07-2005, 10:11
For God, Queen and Country! :charge: However, I do regard the government to be a bunch of self-righteous baboons.
rasoforos
08-07-2005, 13:04
Used to be a stupid fanatic when I was young. Not any more.
I am more interested in protecting my way of life than a bunch of politicians with a flag and borderlines now. This means that I would fight not only for my motherland but also for the country I live in if it was invaded by some other country.
However when/if my country launches an offensive just because our PM is in love with the leader of another country or just because of some long forgotten 'patriotic' reason then they can go %^$# off. I m not gonna fight to occupy or to make some multinationals rich.
Today, patriotism has taken steps back. Just take a look on what pro-war people call patriotism ( making boeing and haliburton rich , killing people thousants of miles away from home ) and it gives you a hood enough indication that patriotism most of the times is just another form of propaganda.
Big King Sanctaphrax
08-07-2005, 13:27
The tired old George Bernard-Shaw quote sums up how I feel on this subject. Patriotism doesn't make a lot of sense.
well I'd say I love my country and I'd probably be ready to die for it but I probably won't join the army since our nations army isn't a real army anymore it's more like an emergency help organisation or something.
Sjakihata
08-07-2005, 14:12
If a greater power, such as germany invaded denmark, I wouldnt stand and fight. I'd sell some classified intel, get stinking rich and move to a secret location (so I dont have to speak german as my everyday language)
that said, I always side with denmark in football tournaments etc.
I believe that one must follow the founding principles of one's nation. That one must protect the founding principles of the nation from enemies, and that its just and right to protest against the government if you believe that the government is doing something wrong.
However it is not patriotism when one use blind hate and unproven rhethoric to either support government policies or to protest governmental policies.
Duke Malcolm
08-07-2005, 15:35
I love both Scotland and the United Kingdom. I'm going to try and join the Life Guards to defenf HM the Queen. I hope to become a lord, and hold a seat in the House of Lords, and become a minister or secretary of state for something or other, and hope to re-establish the British Empire through the British Commonwealth of Nations...
Steppe Merc
08-07-2005, 16:29
Lines on a map. I just live hear. I don't dislike America particullarly, but it's nothing to get worked up over.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
08-07-2005, 16:39
Deutschland Uber Alles! Does that answer your question? ~;)
Lines on a map to me. Being from Chicago, Kansas really doesn't get me all that worked up and if anyone wants to invade New York I'll show them the way in ~;) . And if there was some bloodless coup in Illinois and all of a sudden we ruled by new people who didn't change anything I really wouldn't care. But I will fight, bleed, die, rot in some prison for the ideas that I stand for and for my home. I owe loyalty to myself and friends and family first, then to my home. And not at all to some guy standing on high a thousand miles away saying he knows what is right and wrong for me.
"My country right or wrong is like saying my mother drunk or sober."
-G.K. Chesterton
bmolsson
08-07-2005, 17:03
I am a draft dodging,flag burning, coward and I like to spit on veterans. I hate this place but dont complain about all that welfare i get :embarassed:
Are you a hippie ?
Kääpäkorven Konsuli
08-07-2005, 17:57
Just lines on a map. Nations are just things peoples invented when they had too much free time. I don't see any reason why I should worship one. So as long as I just can live here there is no matter which country's dweller I'am.
Loyal enough to defend it if it should get invaded.
Just lines on a map. Nations are just things peoples invented when they had too much free time. I don't see any reason why I should worship one. So as long as I just can live here there is no matter which country's dweller I'am.
A nation bind people together and make them feel as a whole since those lines are usually well drawed and follows language etc.
Sjakihata
08-07-2005, 18:13
and we all know, that the norwegian lines are thin doesnt mean a thing, it should be danish... erm, wait, no Im not a patriot!
I will defend mine when war come :charge:
Kääpäkorven Konsuli
08-07-2005, 18:37
A nation bind people together and make them feel as a whole since those lines are usually well drawed and follows language etc.
Why I should feel as whole whit other finns? I don't even know all of them and I don't have anything to do with most of them.
Nations suck, bring tribes back!
Spetulhu
08-07-2005, 18:38
Loyal enough to defend it if it should get invaded.
Same here. I took the oath, I'll be there if the army is called up.
Stefan the Berserker
08-07-2005, 18:47
Solidarity with the other Members of the Commonwealth is absolutely neccessary.
I'm a Fanatic and would do anything to save my people, but I generally reject the usage of violence exept the Situation of a hostile Attack.
There is no morale Problem in a Country in having an Army or with people serving in it, the Problem is about how it is used. The diffrence between defensive Militarism and Bellizism is massive.
Article 115a [Definition and declaration of a state of defense]
(1) Any determination that the federal territory is under attack by armed force or imminently threatened with such an attack (state of defense) shall be made by the Bundestag with the consent of the Bundesrat. Such determination shall be made on application of the Federal Government and shall require a two-thirds majority of the votes cast, which shall include at least a majority of the Members of the Bundestag.
(2) If the situation imperatively calls for immediate action, and if insurmountable obstacles prevent the timely convening of the Bundestag or the Bundestag cannot muster a quorum, the Joint Committee shall make this determination by a two-thirds majority of the votes cast, which shall include at least a majority of its members.
(3) The determination shall be promulgated by the Federal President in the Federal Law Gazette pursuant to Article 82. If this cannot be done in time, promulgation shall be effected in another manner; the determination shall be printed in the Federal Law Gazette as soon as circumstances permit.
(4) If the federal territory is under attack by armed force, and if the competent federal authorities are not in a position at once to make the determination provided for in the first sentence of paragraph (1) of this Article, the determination shall be deemed to have been made and promulgated at the time the attack began. The Federal President shall announce that time as soon as circumstances permit.
(5) If the determination of a state of defense has been promulgated, and if the federal territory is under attack by armed force, the Federal President, with the consent of the Bundestag, may issue declarations under international law respecting the existence of the state of defense. Under the conditions specified in paragraph (2) of this Article, the Joint Committee shall act in place of the Bundestag.
scooter_the_shooter
08-07-2005, 19:14
Are you a hippie ?
That was going to be one of the poll choices. I am either the 2nd or third choice on the poll
Tribesman
08-07-2005, 23:57
I believe that one must follow the founding principles of one's nation.
So are you saying that I should follow the principle of a 32 county socialist republic Redleg ? ~;)
In reference to the poll the first option is more generally given as "willing to die for my country" as this indicates sacrifice and the placing of national ideals above self interest. Anyone desiring to "kill for my country" may be a little psychotic, or at least have anger problems! Or possibly is rather immature.
In reference to Es Arkajae, the Commandment is IIRC "Thou shalt not kill". Indeed it is strange that the Old Testament after that is full of conquest and killing, but this it merely highlights the mismash of mysticism, social engineering and propaganda that form much of it.
I voted GAH! by the way, as every man of sense would.
I believe that one must follow the founding principles of one's nation.
So are you saying that I should follow the principle of a 32 county socialist republic Redleg ? ~;)
If that is something you agree with - then by all means follow the principle of a 32 county socialist republic. Your political and national thoughts will of course be different then mine.
The principle of Freedom of Speech - which is one of the founding principles of the United States entitles you to the right to freely express yourself without the government arresting you for your speech unless it violates another's right. Is that not a principle to be loyal to? There are others - but that is just one of the first ones. How about what the Preamble to the constitution states - does that deserve patriots to defend the principles of one's nation.
I once swore an oath to defend the constitution - something that I do not take lightly - even though I am no longer in the miltary - I never forsworn my oath either.
I know you are attempting to play the smart ass - which is your normal style - but the question was about - Are you loyal to your country? Which means to me - if you agree with the principles of your country - be is socialist or not - and is one fo the founding principles of your nation then by all means support it fully.
Sometimes you try to hard to be sarcastic which is probably your greatest shortcoming in a discussion.
Tribesman
08-08-2005, 02:41
If that is something you agree with - then by all means follow the principle of a 32 county socialist republic.
But you said people must follow the founding principles of their nation did you not ?
Furthermore you said that people should fight enemies of those founding principles .
Sometimes you try to hard to be sarcastic
No sarcasm there at all , what you wrote may be fine and dandy as far as your own countries "founding principles" go , but how does it apply to other countries .
PanzerJaeger
08-08-2005, 04:35
I attempted to join the Marines here in America - and if they lowered the health standards just a bit for a war I would join and defend America.
I would do the same for Germany.
If the two ended up fighting each other - which according to history isnt an impossibility( ~;) ) - I would move to Canada and watch in horror.
Papewaio
08-08-2005, 04:37
What kind of health issue can hold you back?
If that is something you agree with - then by all means follow the principle of a 32 county socialist republic.
But you said people must follow the founding principles of their nation did you not ?
Furthermore you said that people should fight enemies of those founding principles .
Did I say people should fight the enemies of those founding principles. I actually stated something completly different from what you are trying to allude to.
That one must protect the founding principles of the nation from enemies, and that its just and right to protest against the government if you believe that the government is doing something wrong.
Now its a matter of word use - protect implies more then just fighting now does it not?
Sometimes you try to hard to be sarcastic
No sarcasm there at all , what you wrote may be fine and dandy as far as your own countries "founding principles" go , but how does it apply to other countries .
The principle states exactly what it means - the question is directed about how an individual feels about their country - not some overreaching principle that should be defined for all.
If you believe in your country's founding principles - then the sentence applies to you be it in a democratic republic like the United States - or a Socialist state somewhere else. The concept of loyality is based upon your personal beliefs not someone else's. If you feel no loyality to your country - that is not my problem - but yours. If you can not fanthom the idea of loyality to a principle - again that problem is yours not mine.
Like I said sometimes you try to hard to be sarcastic - which is exactly what the sentence with the little emoticon was. How else is one to take such a statement as this.
So are you saying that I should follow the principle of a 32 county socialist republic Redleg ? ~;)
That statements screams sarcasm or idoicy from the peanut gallery, so which one is it?
PanzerJaeger
08-08-2005, 05:11
What kind of health issue can hold you back?
When I was younger my friend and I were duck hunting and he swung at a duck and almost shot me in the head.. Luckily, or unluckily ~;) , he missed but he did destroy my eardrum. I had to have a couple of surgeries to get it all fixed and now ive got like 80% hearing in that ear.
When the recruiter checked over my medical records he said that I could not be in a combat zone because the loud discharges could destroy it again. This really made me angry because the doctor said I was good and I hunt and shoot all the time!
Ive come to learn that the US armed forces have pretty strict health requirements, and all these kids taking stuff for ADD and all those other learning deficiancies are disqualified too i think. That was like 2/3 of my class in high school.. ~D
Byzantine Prince
08-08-2005, 05:17
If the two ended up fighting each other - which according to history isnt an impossibility( ~;) ) - I would move to Canada and watch in horror.
You could come over to my place and we'll watch on Pay-per-view. ~:cheers:
Strike For The South
08-08-2005, 05:21
When I was younger my friend and I were duck hunting and he swung at a duck and almost shot me in the head.. Luckily, or unluckily ~;) , he missed but he did destroy my eardrum. I had to have a couple of surgeries to get it all fixed and now ive got like 80% hearing in that ear.
When the recruiter checked over my medical records he said that I could not be in a combat zone because the loud discharges could destroy it again. This really made me angry because the doctor said I was good and I hunt and shoot all the time!
Ive come to learn that the US armed forces have pretty strict health requirements, and all these kids taking stuff for ADD and all those other learning deficiancies are disqualified too i think. That was like 2/3 of my class in high school.. ~D
Panzer did they say anything about eyesight... I must know :help:
PanzerJaeger
08-08-2005, 05:34
You could come over to my place and we'll watch on Pay-per-view.
Awesome!
Panzer did they say anything about eyesight... I must know
My vision is good so it didnt come up, but I believe as long as your vision can be corrected by glasses - you can get in. However, you have to where those ugly standard issue glasses that look sort of like these... ~D
http://www.velmadinkley.com/vel03.jpg
Del Arroyo
08-08-2005, 05:54
In reference to the poll the first option is more generally given as "willing to die for my country" as this indicates sacrifice and the placing of national ideals above self interest. Anyone desiring to "kill for my country" may be a little psychotic, or at least have anger problems! Or possibly is rather immature.
Well yeah of course, this forum draws a lot of younger people, younger people who like wargames. So hyperbole is normal. I think most people go through a sort of "strong feeling" phase. Then later maybe you come to feel that the world is-- "meh". You find out that women aren't quite as fun as you'd imagined, and life isn't quite the blast you thought it was going to be. But you also find that things don't suck so bad as the naysayers said.
Of course, maybe "meh" is also a phase.
DA
Es Arkajae
08-08-2005, 08:21
In reference to Es Arkajae, the Commandment is IIRC "Thou shalt not kill". Indeed it is strange that the Old Testament after that is full of conquest and killing, but this it merely highlights the mismash of mysticism, social engineering and propaganda that form much of it.
.
Oh so you're a bible basher?, your use of the word 'immature' is rather hypocritical in light of this don't you think?
And there is no 'mishmash' on the matter, those who take the commandment as one against 'killing' are just simply wrong, it has always been against murder. You don't see modern states prosecuting their soldiers when they return home for murder for killing the enemy so the distinction between the two is hardly unknown. The same applies to state sanctioned executions and people acting in self defence or with what is later deemed 'just' cause for killing someone (i.e. they present a threat to others)
Es Arkajae
08-08-2005, 08:23
If the two ended up fighting each other - which according to history isnt an impossibility( ~;) ) - I would move to Canada and watch in horror.
LOL!~D
rasoforos
08-08-2005, 09:33
Oh so you're a bible basher?, your use of the word 'immature' is rather hypocritical in light of this don't you think?
And there is no 'mishmash' on the matter, those who take the commandment as one against 'killing' are just simply wrong, it has always been against murder. You don't see modern states prosecuting their soldiers when they return home for murder for killing the enemy so the distinction between the two is hardly unknown. The same applies to state sanctioned executions and people acting in self defence or with what is later deemed 'just' cause for killing someone (i.e. they present a threat to others)
Well...ok sorry to destroy it for you. But this american evangelical idea of 'thou shall not murder' is probably nonsence. If we take into account the Ancient Greek version of the testaments which is probably what was used for later translations and is closer to the original, and take into account the usage of the word back then and not now, then it translate better as ' you should not commit a lethal act'. If it means something different from what christians use it today then its more into 'you shall not kill anything for no reason, not even animals' than ' you shall not murder'
Es Arkajae
08-08-2005, 09:48
Well...ok sorry to destroy it for you.
You're not 'destroying' anything and I'm not American.
The Bible makes it fairly clear that the commandment is not against all killing.
Even if one discounts the direct orders from God to the Israelites to engage in war and killing as divine mandate and thus exceptions to the rule there remains the injunctions given in the Bible to the people of Israel regarding the execution of criminals and the revenge to be taken against them (including killing).
To argue that the Ten Comamndments argues against all killing is quite frankly stupid, and for the person arguing such bespeaks more naievete or a deliberate effort just to be obtuse or a smart arse than any real sense.
The commandment refers to wrongful killing, which can be defined as murder.
Tribesman
08-08-2005, 10:49
Now its a matter of word use - protect implies more then just fighting now does it not?
Word use , yes the keyword was MUST .
There were people who thought that they MUST protect the founding principles of the nation , it led to a little thing called civil war , there are still people who MUST protect the founding principles , they are called terrorists .
King Henry V
08-08-2005, 10:55
I love both Scotland and the United Kingdom. I'm going to try and join the Life Guards to defenf HM the Queen. I hope to become a lord, and hold a seat in the House of Lords, and become a minister or secretary of state for something or other, and hope to re-establish the British Empire through the British Commonwealth of Nations...
Ditto for me. Although my aspirations are slightly higher.
P.S Welcome back King Malcom!
Ja'chyra
08-08-2005, 11:00
Not very, family always comes first.
Let us see.
I am a civilian, so i will not survive the first five minutes next time my country will be at war.
I am not a coward and will not join the army whose members will be able to wait for the radioactive ashes to be inoffensive.
So i suppose i will die for my country when next war will go on.
Being european i do not feel many differences between my neighbors countries, the laws are very close at least concerning the fundamental rights.
Which makes me think borders are mainly a line on the map.
And concerning flags, i do not have any form of interest in sheets of cloths watever their use so i do not care what people do with those supposed symbols.
Now its a matter of word use - protect implies more then just fighting now does it not?
Word use , yes the keyword was MUST .
There were people who thought that they MUST protect the founding principles of the nation , it led to a little thing called civil war , there are still people who MUST protect the founding principles , they are called terrorists .
Terrorists are not protecting founding principles of a nation- some use terrorism to cause a nation to be founded. A big difference from protecting the founding principles of a nation. Insurgents could be seen as protecting the principle ideas of their nation. The founding principles of most nations are in the civil charter of that nation - be it the Constitution like the United States or other documents used in other nations.
Yes the civil war was about more then slavery - and in that war the constitution was defended by both sides - and the winning side strengthing the aspect of the constitution that they were protecting and the nation is better because of it.
You're not 'destroying' anything and I'm not American.
The Bible makes it fairly clear that the commandment is not against all killing.
Even if one discounts the direct orders from God to the Israelites to engage in war and killing as divine mandate and thus exceptions to the rule there remains the injunctions given in the Bible to the people of Israel regarding the execution of criminals and the revenge to be taken against them (including killing).
To argue that the Ten Comamndments argues against all killing is quite frankly stupid, and for the person arguing such bespeaks more naievete or a deliberate effort just to be obtuse or a smart arse than any real sense.
The commandment refers to wrongful killing, which can be defined as murder.
May i ask what you define as wrongful killing?
If it is what is defined in the various holy books, then you can notice that mass slaughter of men, women and children is not considered as being wrong.
In other words, massacres perpetrated during crusades as well as jihads, for example, are perfectly right concerning holy writings.
Are those the elements upon which you fund your judgement?
Duke Malcolm
08-08-2005, 12:38
Ditto for me. Although my aspirations are slightly higher.
P.S Welcome back King Malcom!
Slightly higher...? Surely you don't mean taking over the world in the name of Her Brittanic Majesty...? Or becoming King yourself...? Or both? hmm... taking over the world and making the Pax Brittania wouldn't be too bad...
Es Arkajae
08-08-2005, 13:00
May i ask what you define as wrongful killing?
If it is what is defined in the various holy books, then you can notice that mass slaughter of men, women and children is not considered as being wrong.
In other words, massacres perpetrated during crusades as well as jihads, for example, are perfectly right concerning holy writings.
Are those the elements upon which you fund your judgement?
What is right and what is wrong ultimately remains in Gods hands to judge, only he can see into the hearts of men. As such the best we can do is to do what we believe is right for God knows when we have done so.
Ja'chyra
08-08-2005, 13:05
I'm sure this thread was about loyalty to your country, not religion ~:rolleyes: :idea2: :stop:
bmolsson
08-08-2005, 13:15
I am a civilian, so i will not survive the first five minutes next time my country will be at war.
Joining the army will increase your chance of survival. Nowadays, civilian ARE the target by the opponent army....... ~;)
Tribesman
08-08-2005, 13:25
Once again you fail to understand Redleg , you are applying your nations founding principles and history , Yes the civil war was about more then slavery I was talking about this nations civil war and this nations founding principles , slavery was not an issue , the founding principles were the issue , for some people they still are .
Terrorists are not protecting founding principles of a nation- some use terrorism to cause a nation to be founded. A big difference from protecting the founding principles of a nation.
It depends on what the founding principles are and whether they were achieved , two of the founding principles were recently removed from the constitution as part of the peace process , yet as those that object to the government for abandoning the earlier founding principles do not reconise the right of the government which never achieved its founding principles to further change the founding principles .
So , loyalty to what ?
Es Arkajae
08-08-2005, 13:45
I'm sure this thread was about loyalty to your country, not religion ~:rolleyes: :idea2: :stop:
So observant Ja'chyra, you'll ruin my opinion of you.
Once again you fail to understand Redleg , you are applying your nations founding principles and history
The failure to understand is actually yours more then mine - but don't let that stop you from trying to pass the failure off to me. Again look at the statement.
I believe that one must follow the founding principles of one's nation.
Notice the first word of that sentence - the word I it means my personal belief. I did not apply my belief to you nor did I even image that it applied to anyone else but myself.
It was futher followed with another personal belief
That one must protect the founding principles of the nation from enemies, and that its just and right to protest against the government if you believe that the government is doing something wrong
You made the attempt to make my personal belief the issue for Ireland - which is your nation - and did so in a sarcastic matter - and you blame me for not understanding. Yeah right, get real.
Yes the civil war was about more then slavery I was talking about this nations civil war and this nations founding principles , slavery was not an issue , the founding principles were the issue , for some people they still are .
Then it would help when you stated which civil war you were speaking of. This statement does no such thing.
There were people who thought that they MUST protect the founding principles of the nation , it led to a little thing called civil war , there are still people who MUST protect the founding principles , they are called terrorists
How many nations have had a civil war? The United States, England, Ireland, Lebanon, and many others. The civil war in the United States was over several issues - one being one of the founding principles of this nation - ie states rights. The civil war changed the concept ever so slightly and made the nation stronger for it.
You want to argue about my beliefs as it applies to another country - then have the intellectual honesty to state so - verus being sarcastic and unclear in what you are talking about. And yes indeed the arguement can apply to Ireland just as well as the United States.
Terrorists are not protecting founding principles of a nation- some use terrorism to cause a nation to be founded. A big difference from protecting the founding principles of a nation.
It depends on what the founding principles are and whether they were achieved , two of the founding principles were recently removed from the constitution as part of the peace process , yet as those that object to the government for abandoning the earlier founding principles do not reconise the right of the government which never achieved its founding principles to further change the founding principles .
So , loyalty to what ?
The actions of the govenment should always be questioned - hence if you noticed part of my orginial statement addressed just this issue.
That one must protect the founding principles of the nation from enemies, and that its just and right to protest against the government if you believe that the government is doing something wrong.
That they chose to use violence - in the form of terrorism is their failure not a failure of the concept of protecting the founding principles of a nation which I subscribe to.
Like I said earlier you sometimes try to hard to be sarcastic - and that was your failure not mine.
What is right and what is wrong ultimately remains in Gods hands to judge, only he can see into the hearts of men. As such the best we can do is to do what we believe is right for God knows when we have done so.
Thank you for your answer.
I will not continue as it would distract this thread from it's original topic, but it might be interesting to develop this subject.
Joining the army will increase your chance of survival. Nowadays, civilian ARE the target by the opponent army....... ~;)
I know, that's why i tryed to insist on the fact that it is not soldiers that die for the country except by accident, but civilians.
Soldiers are paid to kill for what is supposed to be the country so i do not think it is correct to present military duty and sacrifice to the nation on the same level : we civilians will die massively in the next war while professional soldiers have the greatest chance of survival of all population categories.
rasoforos
08-08-2005, 16:06
To argue that the Ten Comamndments argues against all killing is quite frankly stupid, and for the person arguing such bespeaks more naievete or a deliberate effort just to be obtuse or a smart arse than any real sense.
The commandment refers to wrongful killing, which can be defined as murder.
I just love self righteous religious fanatics. Keep up the good work. Yoohooo :charge:
I wont continue this since it is waaayyy of topic. Another time, another place perhaps...Adieu!
Tribesman
08-08-2005, 16:30
Then it would help when you stated which civil war you were speaking of.
Since it is about the founding principles of ones country , then it should be obvious that it is ones countries' civil war and founding principles .
Yes you stated your personal beliefs , I merely pointed out from the outset that your personal beliefs are not neccasarily applicable . Which you took to be sarcasm .
verus being sarcastic and unclear in what you are talking about.
I believe that one must follow the founding principles of one's nation.
So do you believe that the Irish must follow the founding principles of the Irish nation ? Or do you believe that only you should follow the founding principles of your nation ?
KukriKhan
08-08-2005, 16:46
This has turned into a bicker-fest, and the intent of the thread-starter (to try to quantify loyalty) has been lost in the din of borderline personal commentary. I am sure the issues raised will come up again in other threads, so we'll close this one before anyone crosses the line and gets into official trouble.
Thanks to all contributors.
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