How do I combat Varangian guard??? [Archive]

CBR

09-01-2005, 19:49

Well they are no more armour heavy than say FMAA/CMAA or Chiv Sgts. Yes AP units will get a +1 attack but thats it. Difference in valor and a general's command stars can do it for you and depending on what year you are in get the best heavy inf you can buy. Or shoot them to pieces with arbs ~:)

CBR

Zarax

09-01-2005, 20:37

AP will get at least +2 attack IIRC since they are heavy armoured.

antisocialmunky

09-01-2005, 21:38

Make them chase you around and shoot them with missiles until they start chasing you.

They are SNAILs. Attack them with Feudal Spearmen and attack them from behind.

Shahed

09-01-2005, 21:52

So how do I combat these unstopable killing machines, Every time I go up against them I suffer massive losses and only beet them by wieght of numbers.I play with a typical catholic army

Which faction are you playing ?

CBR

09-01-2005, 23:15

AP will get at least +2 attack IIRC since they are heavy armoured.

It depends on how much armour. Against infantry they will get the following:

armour/bonus
1-2/0
3-4/+1
5-6/+2

Against cavarly just add +1 armour like 2-3/0 etc

Varangian guards have armour 4 plus a shield that adds another point of armour but the shield doesnt get added to the armour for AP.

CBR

tigger_on_vrb

09-01-2005, 23:47

Firstly hit them with armour piercing ranged fire, also if you can use a mounted missile unit to draw them into a chase to tire them out - all the better.Then when you have to fight them hand to hand -
Pin them with a unit which was reasonable morale and wont rout, then:
1.then hit them from the rear with an armour piercing unit, especially if it has a high charge (best is billmen or gallowglasses etc, but woodsmen here will work ok and are very expendable)
OR
2.hit them with javalins if you can get them - they will get decimated.
OR
3.Slam your best cavalry into the rear - and then withdraw them after they hit so they dont engage in melee, then repeat (retreating a little distance so as to regain ramming speed!)

Happy can opening!

ichi

09-02-2005, 00:01

. . .They are SNAILs. . .

not really slow, they march at 6, run at 10, charge at 11, which is the same IIRC as CMAA. Pretty normal speed for heavy infantry.

I prefer to use cav archers on VG to deplete their numbers.

VG start at morale 6 at V0 so high valor VG can be hard to rout and they do have good att/def stats, plus (again IIRC they get AP bonus so throwing heavy Catholci armored units at them can be painful.

ichi

antisocialmunky

09-02-2005, 00:23

Are you sure about that~:eek:?

They always seem to lag behind my main infantry! I mean, it says so in Froggy's Guide, but they just seem slower in my stock VI.

ichi

09-02-2005, 00:43

From VI_Unit_Prod (2.01)

VarangianGuard MARCH_SPEED( 6 ), RUN_SPEED( 10 ), CHARGE_SPEED( 11 ),

ChivalricFootKnights MARCH_SPEED( 4 ), RUN_SPEED( 8 ), CHARGE_SPEED( 9 ),

ChivalricManAtArms MARCH_SPEED( 6 ), RUN_SPEED( 10 ), CHARGE_SPEED( 11 ),

FeudalFootKnights MARCH_SPEED( 6 ), RUN_SPEED( 10 ), CHARGE_SPEED( 11 ),

FeudalSergeants MARCH_SPEED( 6 ), RUN_SPEED( 10 ), CHARGE_SPEED( 11 ),

UrbanMilitia MARCH_SPEED( 6 ), RUN_SPEED( 10 ), CHARGE_SPEED( 11 ),

MilitiaSergeants MARCH_SPEED( 6 ), RUN_SPEED( 10 ), CHARGE_SPEED( 11 ),

Seems like VG are about normal for inf

ichi :bow:

tigger_on_vrb

09-02-2005, 01:19

I've never found them particularly slow. Maybe some players find them slow because of them tiring quickly because they have been given big armour upgrades (likely if built in Constantinople) and all that armour including what they started with makes them tire too quickly.
Also because they are so awesome maybe people over-use them in a battle when they deserved to be subbed for some reinforcements?

Martok

09-02-2005, 06:36

Also because they are so awesome maybe people over-use them in a battle when they deserved to be subbed for some reinforcements?

I think that's often the case, yes. I played a number of games as the Byz before realizing VG should really be held back in battles until the "moment of decision" has arrived. Until then, use Byzantine infantry (preferably with some armour/morale upgrades) in your first wave; then send in the Varangians to break the enemy.

As for fighting against them, I second Cutepuppy's recommendation of using pavise arbs and/or mounted x-bows to take them out. If you don't have access to those, then use cav to repeatedly hit the VG on the flanks and rear.

Ghost of Rom

09-06-2005, 08:22

The Byz also have many high ranking generals which can make those VG killing machines. Arbelestor bolts dont care what valor you are.

tigger_on_vrb

09-06-2005, 09:55

It depends on how much armour. Against infantry they will get the following:

armour/bonus
1-2/0
3-4/+1
5-6/+2

Against cavarly just add +1 armour like 2-3/0 etc

Varangian guards have armour 4 plus a shield that adds another point of armour but the shield doesnt get added to the armour for AP.

CBR

I thought that because the VG use a twohanded weapon (a massive axe) that they only got the shield bonus for receiving enemy fire when they are not engaged, but dont get the benefit for fighting hand to hand....ok just checked the unit guide and it says it doesnt apply hand to hand, but gives a 0.5 modifier for missile fire.
Is that the reason that the shield is not counted for armour piercing or is the shield never counted for any unit? What about pavs?

fester

09-06-2005, 10:34

Which faction are you playing ?
the english

CBR

09-06-2005, 12:04

I thought that because the VG use a twohanded weapon (a massive axe) that they only got the shield bonus for receiving enemy fire when they are not engaged, but dont get the benefit for fighting hand to hand....ok just checked the unit guide and it says it doesnt apply hand to hand, but gives a 0.5 modifier for missile fire.
Is that the reason that the shield is not counted for armour piercing or is the shield never counted for any unit? What about pavs?

Yes Varangian Guards will not get any bonus from the shield when fighting as they use a two handed weapon. Same thing with JHI. The reason the shield has a modifier of 0.5 is because units that have armour 4 and 5 dont get full effect from their shields (they always get a 0.5 modifier while armour 6 doesnt get anything from shields at all)

I think CA implemented it that way to ensure that the combined armour value didnt become too big. To reflect history as heavily armoured units started to drop the use of shields, they needed to diminish the shield effect so lower tech units didnt become better.

The shield is never counted for when AP bonus is calculated. And pavs doesnt help in melee either, only against missiles.

CBR

L'Impresario

09-06-2005, 12:25

There's a weird thing that I have been noticing for a couple of years, might be my imagination but strangely enough I think that it must have some truth in it.
I 've been getting the feeling that high armour infantry units receive cav charges better than lower armoured ones, and this hasn't got to do with the overall defence stats. Maybe the "mass" of a particular unit and the distance between each man in it are effecting this as well. Examples would include cmaa and fmaa, pavs and xbows as well (and I mean that altough they got the same armour rating, it is quite obvious to me that when forming a square with pavs and xbows to lessen the impact of charging or bog down an enemy cav, the pavs will perform significantly better).
Tho my mind might be playing games with me heh

CBR

09-06-2005, 12:44

Well units dont have a mass factor but deploying in deeper formation is better as less men get effected by the charge. There could be some hidden factor of how many ranks that the cavalry is facing, that might reduce cavalry pushback, but we never have tested it nor has CA ever said anything about that IIRC.

CBR

econ21

09-06-2005, 13:02

the english

Longbows might be good - you probably have 3 bribed from Wales even in the early game. Arbalests are better once you get to the the High period.

Another thing to do is not to combat them. Try to avoid contact, focussing on killing the rest of the army - e.g. get them to chase one of your units to the edge of the map. If you can wreck the rest of their army, their morale should become low enough that they will rout when you turn and gang up on them. (Rear charges by cavalry have a particularly negative effect on morale, IIRC).

But yes, they are formiddable fighters. I remember fighting a confused action with a big Byzantine army. We kind of blundered into each other and then I noticed it had a solitary VG warrior spearheading its charge. I threw 60 woodsman at him and the VG warrior routed them single handedly. It was funny having to get my whole army to out of the way of this one man. Must have been a real berserker!

ah_dut

09-06-2005, 13:28

Longbows might be good - you probably have 3 bribed from Wales even in the early game. Arbalests are better once you get to the the High period.

But yes, they are formiddable fighters. I remember fighting a confused action with a big Byzantine army. We kind of blundered into each other and then I noticed it had a solitary VG warrior spearheading its charge. I threw 60 woodsman at him and the VG warrior routed them single handedly. It was funny having to get my whole army to out of the way of this one man. Must have been a real berserker!
I like longbows a lot as at the last resort (when they're out of arrows) they can sort of fight and also, they shoot their arrows a lot faster. They run out of arrows faster but I'm not the best player and often find that I never get to use up all of my arbalest bolts before the battle ends...

And on the note of the VG, they are norsemen ~;)

Mithrandir

09-06-2005, 20:33

Don't VG's also have AP ?

That'd mean they'd get a bonus vs cmaa, but not vs mil sergs :)

antisocialmunky

09-06-2005, 21:25

You can treat VG like JHI in the early game.

Geezer57

09-07-2005, 01:51

You can treat VG like JHI in the early game.

I'd rather compare them to Viking Huscarles with an extra point of armor/defense - they're identical. VG don't get any anti-cav bonus, aren't as fast as JHI, and have 2 points less morale, so that comparison is less exact.

CBR

09-07-2005, 02:34

Don't VG's also have AP ?

That'd mean they'd get a bonus vs cmaa, but not vs mil sergs :)

They will get a bonus v mil sgts as they have armour 3.

CBR

antisocialmunky

09-07-2005, 03:41

I'd rather compare them to Viking Huscarles with an extra point of armor/defense - they're identical. VG don't get any anti-cav bonus, aren't as fast as JHI, and have 2 points less morale, so that comparison is less exact.

Well, there aren't exactly any units that can get any closer to JHI than VGs in Early, unless you count high valour Militia Sergents.

Geezer57

09-07-2005, 17:59

Well, there aren't exactly any units that can get any closer to JHI than VGs in Early, unless you count high valour Militia Sergents.
I don't want to seem like I'm trying to nitpick you, but Huscarles are only available in Early, unless you mod the game, so they're an option if not playing as Byz (or even if you are ~:cool: ). VG start in Early and can continue on into High, while JHI can't be built except in High or Late. All three are uber units, I welcome any of them in my armies.

But the closest match (stat-wise and unit type) is between VG and Huscarles. They're identical if you bump the Huscarle armor up by one point. If faced with either in an opposing army, I'd use the same tactics. JHI are a different beast - not only are they faster, their morale is better. And they have that lovely bonus vs. cavalry, so the old "heavy cav up the bum" approach isn't as attractive against them - they bite back!

JHI are arguably the premier infantry unit in the game, but their build requirements are so high that most Turkish players don't see them until far into a campaign. Both VG and JHI are specific to a particular faction, but anyone can build Huscarles if they hold the Scandinavian provinces, so they're more likely to be available to players. In my current Turkish campaign, I'm no where near fielding JHI, but am busy pumping out Huscarles from Denmark and Sweden as fast as I can! Too bad it's getting close to the High period... :embarassed:

antisocialmunky

09-07-2005, 22:48

Well, VG are fairly good against cavalry. They can't melt units like a candle burning at both ends, but they are still one of the best equivalents of early JHI. I don't think you can really compare JHI to anything, but VG in early do come close to its power.

Zarax

09-07-2005, 22:51

Well, they get substantial bonus against heavy cav thanks to the AP, it would be foolish to leave cav doing a prolonged melee against them.

Geezer57

09-08-2005, 00:19

Well, they get substantial bonus against heavy cav thanks to the AP, it would be foolish to leave cav doing a prolonged melee against them.
Hmmm, if it was just the AP that made them effective against cav, then an upgraded Urban Militia would work as well. We all know how that would turn out. I've got to believe the relatively high attack, defense, armor, and morale values of VG (and similar units, like Huscarles, Swabians, etc.) are also factors just as important as AP. All these units are melee meat-grinders: it's foolish to leave anything you want to keep exposed to them for long.

Bregil the Bowman

09-08-2005, 23:13

For a great account of how to fight Varangian Guards, check out Alfred Duggan's novel "Count Bohemond." Bohemond's dad, Robert Hauteville, led a band of Apulians and Normans into Romania and fought it out with the Byzantines for a number of years. In one battle they came up against the Emperor's elite Varangians and discovered that their cavalry would not charge against the massed ranks of axemen - the horses would baulk at the last minute.

The situation was saved by two factors. Firstly, Hauteville's wife had joined the knights and managed to rally them (basically, they wouldn't rout while a woman was still fighting). Secondly, Bohemond called up his mercenary crossbowmen and promised them the golden ornaments belonging to every guardsman they could shoot. The Varangians loved their bling.

So combination of AP shooting and hit-and-run cavalry attacks would seem to be the effective tactic. It worked for the Apulians, who slaughtered the Varangians to a man.

Henry Treece's "Horned Helmet" also contains a brief (fictional?) account of a battle between the Jomsvikings and the Patzinaks wherein the elite Vikings are slowly ground down by an enemy with whom they cannot get to grips. Mounted archers can play havoc with any non-missile infantry, especially if they outnumber them.