Corruption...

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'm moving this subject over from another thread. Corruption in France is big enough to warrant a thread of it's own.
WHEN Arthur de Villepin was caught by police following a drunken brawl in Paris, he knew there was only one man he needed to call - his father, the French prime minister.

In a show of political intervention which would be unthinkable in Britain, Dominique de Villepin spoke to the police officers who were holding his son and persuaded them not to take him into custody.

The police documents recording the incident, in a wealthy district of the French capital, have also allegedly gone missing.

But far from causing a political scandal as it might do in other countries, the story has merely caused ripples of amusement in the French press. Link (http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1975002005)

The above pretty much sums it up.

The real shock of course lies not the intervention by the prime minister or the missing documents, but the last paragraph.

Corruption is so endemic that nobody cares - or the other way round. In fact, if you do it well or in new imaginative ways people will respect you for it. :furious3:

[BDC]

That's pretty bad. When our PM's son was picked up it was just all over the news. Poor guy.

[Don Corleone]

Oh come on Louis, you can do better than that. George H. W. Bush had numerous cocaine trafficking charges against George W. Bush dismissed when he was a youth. Just ask Andrew Sullivan. :dizzy2:

All kidding aside, this would be considered tame over here. The scandal would be if a politician let his son get hauled off to jail, tried and convicted. People would question his 'family values'.

You got anything on public figures sleeping with women other than their wives (or men for that matter?) The best political scandals in America are always sexual in nature. We're still rather puritanical like that.

[Adrian II]

Corruption is so endemic that nobody cares - or the other way round. In fact, if you do it well or in new imaginative ways people will respect you for it. :furious3:Gérard Longuet, François Léotard, Alain Juppé, Robert Pandraud, Roland Dumas, Mitterrand/Kohl/Elf, Dominique Strauss-Kahn, Michel Mouillot, Michel Noir, Bernard Tapie, Robert Hue, Jean Tiberi, Alain Carignon…

People do care, though. The number of French convictions on grounds of corruption has doubled in the past ten years.

[Kagemusha]

Didn´t Miterrand have a daughter outside marriage?

[Don Corleone]

Didn´t Miterrand have a daughter outside marriage?
:thinking2:
Now this could sell copy here in the States...

[Adrian II]

Didn´t Miterrand have a daughter outside marriage?That has nothing to do with corruption. Besides, our recently deceased prince Bernhard had no less than six daughters born our of wedlock.
:smug:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Oh come on Louis, you can do better than that. Hey, it's just last week's scandal. Pretty tame by French standards. ~;)


You got anything on public figures sleeping with women other than their wives (or men for that matter?) Oui, et alors?

That's Mitterand displaying total indifference to journalists enquiring him about his illegitimate daughter with one of his mistresses. He gained a lot of popularity from it.
I didn't care either - we'll gladly leave sexual scandals to the puritan Americans.

[Crazed Rabbit]

You've got to have powerful relatives to get you out of a manslaughter charge of which you are obviously guilty. Just ask the senior Senator from Massachusetts.

Crazed Rabbit

[Adrian II]

You've got to have powerful relatives to get you out of a manslaughter charge of which you are obviously guilty. Just ask the senior Senator from Massachusetts.

Crazed RabbitThat is nothing, just ask Louis to elaborate on Mitterrand's son (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1145868.stm)... ~:eek:

[Louis VI the Fat]

People do care, though. The number of French convictions on grounds of corruption has doubled in the past ten years.Yes, the tide seems to be turning:


In the past decade over 500 French politicians and businessmen have been investigated or convicted for corruption. Many of Les affaires, as the scandals are known, relate to illegal money-raising for political parties in the 1980s and 1990s. Jacques Chirac may have been among the worst culprits, though as France's president he is immune from prosecution. Alain Juppé, his former right-hand man and putative successor, was convicted in February 2004 of allowing party workers to be paid by the Paris treasury when he was treasurer, which has thrown Mr Chirac's party into disarray.

Other scandals concern Elf, a state-owned oil company used by François Mitterrand (president from 1981 to 1995) as a slush fund to lubricate foreign policy and fill friends' pockets. The fallout cost Dominique Strauss-Kahn, then finance minister, his job and sent Roland Dumas, a former foreign minister, his ex-mistress, and Alfred Sirven, a former Elf executive (who fled the country), to prison. (Though Mr Dumas was later cleared on appeal.) Add to this the scandalous collapse of Crédit Lyonnais, France's biggest state-owned bank, and some wonder if France is endemically corrupt. But allegations that officials in Toulouse, including the mayor, police and judges, were part of a murderous sex-ring has shocked even cynics.Link. (http://www.economist.com/research/backgrounders/displayBackgrounder.cfm?bg=638519)

[Tribesman]

That is nothing, just ask Louis to elaborate on Mitterrand's son...
Hey he is just like Thatchers son .

[Don Corleone]

Well, I'm going to skip the obvious Clinton & Kennedy references.

For your pleasure, we offer Gary Condit. Mr. Condit, a US representative from Modesto, CA was what's called a 'Blue-dog Democrat', socially liberal, fiscally conservative. When a family friend's daughter, Chandra Levy, came to work as an intern in his office, he promised his friends, Chandra's parents, to look after her. And boy did he ever. The father of two, he struck up an illicit relationship with the the then 18-year old Chandra. During a police investegation into her disappearance, the congressman gave several conflicting statements, including at one point saying he hadn't seen her in weeks. In fact, weeks after it could have been of use, he admitted that he had been with her the morning of her disappearance and was in fact the last person to see her alive. Her remains were found a year and a half later in a park in Northwest Washington DC. To date, no charges have ever been filed. Defining 'collassal gaul', Mr. Condit sought reelection in 2002, when he was defeated in the primary by his own former campaign manager, Dennis Cordoza. During the subsequent investegation into Chandra's disappearance, the DC police could not state enough that Rep. Condit was not a suspect. To this day, no charges have ever been filed.

[Azi Tohak]

But isn't this normal for any modern country? Those in power, use that power, however they see fit. Part of why US presidents like to have a nice big stack of pardons on their desk the last day or two in office (personally, I think presidential pardons were a silly idea anyway).

I sympathize, but what would you like to do about it?

Azi

[yesdachi]

When looking at corruption you must take into consideration that the US has 50 states each gets a governor, senators, and congressmen, plus a President, VP and a whole slew of other officials leaving us hundreds of opportunities to have corrupt officials. Another sad example of other countries not getting the same opportunities as the US ~;) . Size matters :tiny: .

[Don Corleone]

Well, technically this thread is about French corruption, I just dragged it off topic. I'm not certain what sort of reform efforts you could pull off in France for these sorts of things. Do you guys even have the power to impeach sitting office holders?

[ah_dut]

That's pretty bad. When our PM's son was picked up it was just all over the news. Poor guy.
The guy was a fool, he deserved what he got (and yes, I used to know him...he did go to my school)

[Louis VI the Fat]

Okay, here's a list comparing levels of corruption. Sorry, I'm not going to clean it up, press the link below for a cleaner table.
Country Rank Country 2004
1 Finland 9,7 9.5 - 9.8 9 # # # # # # # # #
2 New Zealand 9,6 9.4 - 9.6 9 # # # # # # # # #
3 Denmark 9,5 9.3 - 9.7 10 # # # # # # # # # #
Iceland 9,5 9.4 - 9.7 8 # # # # # # # #
5 Singapore 9,3 9.2 - 9.4 13 # # # # # # # # # # # # #
6 Sweden 9,2 9.1 - 9.3 11 # # # # # # # # # # #
7 Switzerland 9,1 8.9 - 9.2 10 # # # # # # # # # #
8 Norway 8,9 8.6 - 9.1 9 # # # # # # # # #
9 Australia 8,8 8.4 - 9.1 15 # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #
10 Netherlands 8,7 8.5 - 8.9 10 # # # # # # # # # #
11 United Kingdom 8,6 8.4 - 8.8 12 # # # # # # # # # # # #
12 Canada 8,5 8.1 - 8.9 12 # # # # # # # # # # # #
13 Austria 8,4 8.1 - 8.8 10 # # # # # # # # # #
Luxembourg 8,4 8.0 - 8.9 7 # # # # # # #
15 Germany 8,2 8.0 - 8.5 11 # # # # # # # # # # #
16 Hong Kong 8,0 7.1 - 8.5 13 # # # # # # # # # # # # #
17 Belgium 7,5 7.1 - 8.0 10 # # # # # # # # # #
Ireland 7,5 7.2 - 7.9 10 # # # # # # # # # #
USA 7,5 6.9 - 8.0 14 # # # # # # # # # # # # # #
20 Chile 7,4 7.0 - 7.8 11 # # # # # # # # # # #
21 Barbados 7,3 6.6 - 7.6 3 # # #
22 France 7,1 6.6 - 7.6 12 # # # # # # # # # # # #
Spain 7,1 6.7 - 7.4 11 # # # # # # # # # # #
24 Japan 6,9 6.2 - 7.4 15 # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #
25 Malta 6,8 5.3 - 8.2 4 # # # #
26 Israel 6,4 5.6 - 7.1 10 # # # # # # # # # #
27 Portugal 6,3 5.8 - 6.8 9 # # # # # # # # #
28 Uruguay 6,2 5.9 - 6.7 6 # # # # # #
29 Oman 6,1 5.1 - 6.8 5 # # # # #
United Arab Emirates 6,1 5.1 - 7.1 5 # # # # #
31 Botswana 6,0 5.3 - 6.8 7 # # # # # # #
Estonia 6,0 5.6 - 6.7 12 # # # # # # # # # # # #
Slovenia 6,0 5.6 - 6.6 12 # # # # # # # # # # # #
34 Bahrain 5,8 5.5 - 6.2 5 # # # # #
35 Taiwan 5,6 5.2 - 6.1 15 # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #
36 Cyprus 5,4 5.0 - 5.8 4 # # # #
37 Jordan 5,3 4.6 - 5.9 9 # # # # # # # # #
38 Qatar 5,2 4.6 - 5.6 4 # # # #
39 Malaysia 5,0 4.5 - 5.6 15 # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #
Tunisia 5,0 4.5 - 5.6 7 # # # # # # #
41 Costa Rica 4,9 4.2 - 5.8 8 # # # # # # # #
42 Hungary 4,8 4.6 - 5.0 12 # # # # # # # # # #
Italy 4,8 Transparacy International (http://www.transparency.org/pressreleases_archive/2004/2004.10.20.cpi.en.html)

In so many respects, France (like Belgium) is distinctly Northern European. But when it comes to corruption, unfortunately the 'latin' side prevails.

I'm quite surprised that the US should be so low on that list. I expected it to be higher up, somewhere close to Australia and the UK. Odd.

And I knew about Italy being corrupt. But below Botswana, Tunisia and Costa Rica? Man...

[Adrian II]

That is nothing, just ask Louis to elaborate on Mitterrand's son... Hey he is just like Thatchers son .On the other hand, British politicians must be the most repressed of our little rogues' gallery. I mean Mitterand's daughter is a comely sight compared to the sights and sounds (as far as one imagines) of naked* politicians found dead in cupboards with self-made nooses around their necks or Paul Burrell's extraordinary reverse genuflexions in Her Majesty's service.
:dizzy2:

*Correction: Milligan was naked except for his stockings and suspenders

[Louis VI the Fat]

Don, that story about Gary Condit is sickening.


Well, technically this thread is about French corruption, I just dragged it off topic. I'm not certain what sort of reform efforts you could pull off in France for these sorts of things. Do you guys even have the power to impeach sitting office holders?If I'm not mistaken, impeachment is possible, but short of that they enjoy penal immunity while in office (is that the correct terminology?).


And please, feel free to talk about corruption anywhere.

Your misery makes me feel good! :jumping:

(sorry, my lousy sense of humor again)

[Don Corleone]

Well, if you enjoyed that one, just so my American friends to the Left don't feel singled out, please allow me to regale you with the tale of Newt Gingrich and why I would vote for about 40 of the Democrats in the Senate for President before him.

Newt technically got brought down by an ethics charge for undeclared speaking fees while he was in office. His defense was that he thought he was teaching a course. I think it's pretty clear he knew what he was doing, but I also think it was a relatively minor offense. So why, you might ask, would Newt be allowed to go down in flames by his loyal minions? Hmmm... could it be that by then it had come to light that Mr Family Values himself 1) had served divorce papers to his first wife, Jackie, while she was recovering from surgery, to remove uterine cancer, in a hospital bed and then turned around 2) in the same month he decried the 'decline of moral values in America' called his 2nd wife (of 18 years) on the phone to announce that he had been having an affair with a staffer 23 years his junior and was leaving her for her. Said second wife was in the midst of a birthday party for her 84 year old mother.

Just about the only good thing I can say about Newt Gingrich is it proves we don't stand by our L-A-D's (lying ass dogs). He's been banished to the talk show circuit, and we have no control over who Chris Matthews (Hardball) et. al. decide to have come on their show.

[Kagemusha]

What corruption here in Finland.What´s that? :saint: No really we are just so corrupted that we wont tell anyone about it. ~;)

[Adrian II]

What corruption here in Finland.What´s that? :saint: No really we are just so corrupted that we wont tell anyone about it. ~;)Any sex scandals of the Milligan type in Finland?


The forensic team emerged from the MP's house after three hours carrying a bag and some furniture, including two sections of beige cupboard doors and the top of a round pine table. :dizzy2:

[Alexanderofmacedon]

George H. W. Bush had numerous cocaine trafficking charges against George W. Bush dismissed when he was a youth.

Well, isn't that interesting...

[Don Corleone]

I don't appreciate you quoting me without the sarcasm tag or the dubious source I quoted.

[Tribesman]

*Correction: Milligan was naked except for his stockings and suspenders
Hey come on , it's the only way to eat an orange ~D ~D ~D
So much for all his talk of good decent British traditions and family values . ~:eek:
Still at least he didn't try to get his gay lover killed like Thorpe did .

[Kagemusha]

Any sex scandals of the Milligan type in Finland?


The forensic team emerged from the MP's house after three hours carrying a bag and some furniture, including two sections of beige cupboard doors and the top of a round pine table. :dizzy2:

Well atleast our Prime minister Matti Vanhanen divorced last spring.Week after that someone leeked that He had many late night meetings with our Cultural Minister Tanja Karpela who is actually ex Miss Finland.It was rumoured that their meetings resulted on Vanhanen´s divorce.But everybody forgot that in a week.Also our president Tarja Halonen is one of the founder´s of SETA which is an organisation of Gay rights.I think it´s bit difficult to have sex scandals here,because nobody cares who the politicians do but are they doing their job.
Here is a picture of our culture minister Tanja Karpela.
https://img332.imageshack.us/img332/4805/1630pe.jpg

[Adrian II]

*Correction: Milligan was naked except for his stockings and suspenders
Hey come on , it's the only way to eat an orange ~D ~D ~D
So much for all his talk of good decent British traditions and family values . ~:eek:
Still at least he didn't try to get his gay lover killed like Thorpe did .My personal favourite is still Edwina Currie who in 2002 on the Late Late Show accidentally called her new husband 'John Major', after the prime minister of 'back to basics' fame with whom she had been having an affair. ~D

[Adrian II]

https://img332.imageshack.us/img332/4805/1630pe.jpgSo, um, and how long have you been a sex slave? :vulcan:

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Shhh, it's funnier this way ~;)

[Kagemusha]

So, um, and how long have you been a sex slave? :vulcan:
Like i stated before silence is gold. ~D

[Soulforged]

I'm moving this subject over from another thread. Corruption in France is big enough to warrant a thread of it's own. Link (http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1975002005)

The above pretty much sums it up.

The real shock of course lies not the intervention by the prime minister or the missing documents, but the last paragraph.

Corruption is so endemic that nobody cares - or the other way round. In fact, if you do it well or in new imaginative ways people will respect you for it. :furious3:Well taking it into context this is nothing. But coming from Europe, well then it has some degree of history in it. Maybe the people look at here and look at our level of corruption and then they feel a little better when they look at their own country, just IMO.

[Byzantine Prince]

Albania

Argentina

Libya

Palestinian Authority

I thought Albania was more corrupt then PA. ~:eek:


What's this about, someone has been underestimating what a mess that country is. ~;)

[el_slapper]

For France's Corruption, judges are doing an excellent job hunting the bad guys. Problem is, voters don't care. Many politicians, as Patrick Balkany, who were far from office due to corruption guilty judgmeents, were elected back as soon as their time had come again. Usually with better scores than before. Yes, you did read it right, people condamned for corruption got better scores after..... we call it "prime à la casserolle", but I'm annoyed to translate it... :embarassed:

The lone that has problems with its past errors is Laurent Fabius. Some(but not much) remember that he was involved in the blood scandal, that gave AIDS to many hemophiles when he was prime minister. But all those who stole money have a better image : I guess a country has the politicians it deserves :embarassed:

[Ironside]

Well atleast our Prime minister Matti Vanhanen divorced last spring.Week after that someone leeked that He had many late night meetings with our Cultural Minister Tanja Karpela who is actually ex Miss Finland.It was rumoured that their meetings resulted on Vanhanen´s divorce.But everybody forgot that in a week.Also our president Tarja Halonen is one of the founder´s of SETA which is an organisation of Gay rights.I think it´s bit difficult to have sex scandals here,because nobody cares who the politicians do but are they doing their job.


Well I did recently red that this is hurting him because that this caused an image change that people aren't falling for (from family value guy, to a lady charmer).
True?

[rasoforos]

Ok I dunno if anyone cares to know this:

I studied corruption as part of my dissertation on economic convergence.While I was playing with econometrics I run a regression between corruption ( using the CPI index ) and some per capita variables, for OECD countries. I was very surprised to find out how strong the negative relationship between corruption and Productivity/Income is...

...It made me wish economics has tought at school. As it stands, for most corrupted countries in the world, its impossible to convince people (who see corruption as a means and not as an obstacle) that being 10% less corrupt could sometimes give em an extra monthly wage per year...

...If the statistics are also true for developing countries then corruption sometimes is all that stands between having a developing or a developed status...

...scary...

[Ironside]

Forum problems...

[bmolsson]

There are many types of corruption. The most common in west are the "social" one. Only appoint friends and family to projects and positions.
The more open corruption, where you pay off a cop for a traffic offense is actually the least serious. You pay your fine direct to the cop and will be more careful next time.......

The largest problem with corruption in the third world is that it creates a fiscal instability with some firms being more burden than others, plus that the civil services becomes inefficient, unproductive and expensive.