Colombus Day

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Well what do you think of it?

I recently wrote a piece on Colombus Day for my school paper, it will be in Wednesday or Thursday's edition, I really don't see why the US celebrates him. It seems like he did a whole lot more harm than good. For one he treated the natives very brutally, even against the orders of the Spanish crown, he was a glory hound and even stole the glory of first seeing land from one of his own men, he was fairly inept when it came to predicting the Ocean's size and that of the Earth, and I'm sure there are many other things, but I think that's enough to start.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Cristiforo Columbo is an Italian Hero, and I am sick and tired of all the slander spread against him by the radical left.

He's more of a hero than Martin Luther King and whoever the hell else these AA rascists want days after, because without him, I doubt MLK would have even BEEN IN AMERICA.

Treated Natives badly...blegh...and which nations didn't? You think the natives were nice to Columbus and his crew? Were they ever?

He may have made mistakes, but to call him a villain is just plain slander. What about all the bad things MLK and Malcom X did? And what's up with all these bloody herataige months while the Italians can't even get ONE $&#^$%#$^%&#^%$^#$^%$(*@(@*&@&*&&$#^@&*#& DAY?

I can go on, but that's enough for a start.

[Redleg]

Well what do you think of it?

I recently wrote a piece on Colombus Day for my school paper, it will be in Wednesday or Thursday's edition, I really don't see why the US celebrates him. It seems like he did a whole lot more harm than good. For one he treated the natives very brutally, even against the orders of the Spanish crown, he was a glory hound and even stole the glory of first seeing land from one of his own men, he was fairly inept when it came to predicting the Ocean's size and that of the Earth, and I'm sure there are many other things, but I think that's enough to start.


Oh boy someone likes to stir the pot now don't they.

:dizzy2:

[discovery1]

Kaiser, I'm pretty sure that even if Columbus wasn't given money for his voyage, some other explorer would con a monarch into supporting them. Wasn't there some English explorer at about the same time? http://www.heritage.nf.ca/exploration/cabot.html




In England, Cabot received the backing he had been refused in Spain and Portugal. First, the merchants of Bristol agreed to support his scheme. They had sponsored probes into the north Atlantic from the early 1480s, looking for possible trading opportunities. Some historians think that Bristol mariners might even have reached Newfoundland and Labrador even before Cabot arrived on the scene.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Kaiser, I'm pretty sure that even if Columbus wasn't given money for his voyage, some other explorer would con a monarch into supporting them. Wasn't there some English explorer at about the same time? http://www.heritage.nf.ca/exploration/cabot.html
Cabot was born in Genoa. Another great Italian.~:)

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Just something for you to note Kaiser: he enslaved 1600 natives in direct violation of orders from the Spanish monarchs, and then sent them 550. They sent them back and punished him for it. Who knows what would have happened if he didn't start that trend? Though I agree it is likely that they would have been abused anyway it does not make that sort of behaviour permissible IMHO.

[Tachikaze]

He was a profiteer looking for wealth. His voyage was uncertain and dangerous, but so were so many others that we rarely mention today. His trip was actually not as long or as dangerous as many others, including the earliest voyages around Africa and, of course, the circumnavigation of the world, both about the same time.

It sucks that we have made a hero out of a man with so few virtues, and a long list of vices. The results of his findings led to mass deaths in the Americas. Even if the great majority were not done by his hand, it's nothing to celebrate.

There have been so many wonderful people who have given the world so much and asked for so little in return. It's a crime they go unsung while Columbus is honored.:disappointed:

The remark about MLK and where he would have been born is ludicrous. Columbus never stepped foot in the US.:laugh4:

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Just something for you to note Kaiser: he enslaved 1600 natives in direct violation of orders from the Spanish monarchs, and then sent them 550. They sent them back and punished him for it. Who knows what would have happened if he didn't start that trend? Though I agree it is likely that they would have been abused anyway it does not make that sort of behaviour permissible IMHO.
The Turks started the slave trade way before Columbus. Just by finding America, it would have been extended and the natives enslaved.

[AntiochusIII]

That's no excuse, Kaiser. Columbus was an important historical figure, whose successful voyage opened the New World to the grasp of the aspiring Spanish empire. If that is a good thing or not it is up to personal opinion. He did commit atrocities, you can't deny that. I do not slander him or consider him an evil creature some extremists do, but he is, shall we say, overrated.

After all, many of the deeds attributed to him belongs to others. Even the "discovery of America" by Columbus, the old misconception, is false, yet still a "common knowledge" in the unlearned folks.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

He was a profiteer looking for wealth. His voyage was uncertain and dangerous, but so were so many others that we rarely mention today. His trip was actually not as long or as dangerous as many others, including the earliest voyages around Africa and, of course, the circumnavigation of the world, both about the same time.

It sucks that we have made a hero out of a man with so few virtues, and a long list of vices. The results of his findings led to mass deaths in the Americas. Even if the great majority were not done by his hand, it's nothing to celebrate.

There have been so many wonderful people who have given the world so much and asked for so little in return. It's a crime they go unsung while Columbus is honored.:disappointed:

The remark about MLK and where he would have been born is ludicrous. Columbus never stepped foot in the US.:laugh4:

Well, without slavery, they'd still be in the dark ages in Africa, dying at age 30 of a cold. No offense to them, but it's still going on in some parts of Africa. So I doubt much would have changed. Despite all the bad things, in the end, slavery contributed Postitivly, mainly by (by ending it, at least) we gained many African-American writers, poets, and musicians into American society that wouldnt have been here if it wasnt for slavery in the 16 and 1700s

[AntiochusIII]

That's another misconception, Kaiser. Africa was depopulated and de-civilized because of slavery. The cultures were developing themselves, as well, and they stood better chance of evolving than the Mesoamerican cultures, thanks to them being in the larger part of the world's continents. The institution of slavery in such massive sizes led to increased violence among Africans. Cities, towns, and villages emptied of population; older, inner continent kingdoms fell to be replaced by coastal slave-trading kingdoms, who were reliant on Europeans to survival, and were more barbaric in terms of the scale of violence they committed.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

That's another misconception, Kaiser. Africa was depopulated and de-civilized because of slavery. The cultures were developing themselves, as well, and they stood better chance of evolving than the Mesoamerican cultures, thanks to them being in the larger part of the world's continents. The institution of slavery in such massive sizes led to increased violence among Africans. Cities, towns, and villages emptied of population; older, inner continent kingdoms fell to be replaced by coastal slave-trading kingdoms, who were reliant on Europeans to survival, and were more barbaric in terms of the scale of violence they committed.
The only real Kingdom I could think of that showed promise was Zimbabwe, in Africa. I'm probably wrong.

Either way, Columbus was a hero!

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I don't think Columbus was evil per se, but he certainly wasn't a great guy and definately did a lot of horrible things.

How do we know that without Columbus we would not be better off? Capo you are making a lot of assumptions, such as that we wouldn't have a lot of African American writers and such, but how do we know that there wouldn't be a wave of more peaceful immigration, or another source for cultural diversity without Columbus? I think that is looking a bit too far ahead of the events, I think we should judge him based on what he did and the immediate consequences.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Columbus was an ass.
So was MLK, in my opinion. You're point?

The thing is, ITALIAN AMERICANS DONT HAVE TOO MANY HEROS! So we tend to be very defensive. So that's why I'm definding Columbus wholeheartedly.

[solypsist]

unfortunately efforts between Native Americans and Italian-Americans to compromise and just have an Italian pride day or something haven't materialized. I can see both sides of the issue, and they're both strong for very different reasons.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

MLK? An ass? MLK was a great man who did great things. It's the greedy ingrates who spearheaded Afirmative Action and bastardized his dream of equality that are the asses.
The fact that he created such a dream led them to bastardize it. If he hadn't created the dream, they wouldnt have bastardized it. Simple really.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Oh come on Kaiser. That's like saying that the Crusades are Jesus' fault for Him dying on the Cross.

Funny how in editing this I realized I called you "Capo". Old habits never die.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Capo that is a totally unreasonable point, by that logic nobody should have dreams because somebody could come along and totally futz it up after you die.

Well you could have a holiday for Italian-American policemen that fought the mafia back when it was really big. From what I remember they tended to be some of the best as they were very dedicated and were the best for infiltrating the organization. Why do you need an Italian-American hero? Sorry if I'm being insensitive, but I don't get it at the moment, please explain.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The fact that he created such a dream led them to bastardize it. If he hadn't created the dream, they wouldnt have bastardized it. Simple really.

Kaiser:

I'm KofC, so I honor Columbus even though I am aware of his faults. He was a man, niether good nor evil and certainly not perfect, who changed history. He should be remembered.

If you seriously believe that MLK's dream of equality was a mistake because others twisted it, then there would be a lot of other dreamers who would also have to revile, inlcuding Jeshua (Jesus) of Galilee. His dream was neither exclusive nor immoral, and you should remember that foremost of all -- regardless of what others did following his death.

Seamus

[Strike For The South]

The mans from Genoa my pops is from Genoa end of story~:cheers:

[Redleg]

The fact that he created such a dream led them to bastardize it. If he hadn't created the dream, they wouldnt have bastardized it. Simple really.

Get off the degrading of Martin Luther King - your about to go to far with your comments.

Colombus was not the great man that the legend tries to make him out to be. He was just a man - who happened to have the best detailed record of the discovery of the America's so he gets more the day named after him. If Colombus only got a day named after him the real credit for the discovery of the new world goes to the individual who the America's are named after. It seems that in your attempt to defend Colombus you are also forgetting the other Europeans that discovered the New World first. You know those Vikings that braved the seas many years before Colombus was even born.

[Strike For The South]

The fact that he created such a dream led them to bastardize it. If he hadn't created the dream, they wouldnt have bastardized it. Simple really.


Thats really sad the man did so mush good than maybe anyone in history and you are belitling him for it for a what a few bad apples have done nice job ******

/edited for language

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Let's not lynch Kaiser too much - we are straying off topic to begin with.

Um.

On a more related note, I don't have off from school on Colombus Day.

Though I do get an extra day for it off in November.

[Papewaio]

Most of the deaths caused where by disease, not much could have stopped that, even with todays technology if we landed in a country without immunity the people would be wiped out to a tenth of the population with years.

So all it would take is a single diesease carrying Euroasian to wash up on the shores of the Americas and bang... 90% dead.

CC was wrong in thinking the world was not a sphere ..he equated it to be like a womans breast and he was going from Spain to India around the nipple not the base... nice idea, just not accurate... he believed the circumference of the world at the point he was navigating was shorter.

After all he thought he had landed in India, and if it wasn't for the Americas being there he would have died in the Pacific...

[Strike For The South]

Let's not lynch Kaiser too much - we are straying off topic to begin with.

Um.

On a more related note, I don't have off from school on Colombus Day.

Though I do get an extra day for it off in November.

I get it off~:cool:

[Uesugi Kenshin]

That sucks, we get five dayds off. Sat-Wed. Tuesday and Wednesday are inservices though. We didn't get Columbus Day off until about two years ago though.

Should we celebrate Columbus just because he impacted history? We don't have a Hitler day..... (Guy Fawkes Day seems similar though, anyone want to explain why that is a holiday? BTW I know that is really extreme, no comparison between Hitler and Columbus.)

Columbus will still be remembered, remember we have public schools and to the best of my knwoledge they all teach their students at least the basics of Columbus, if not more. The day is not his only recognition, he gets a substantial amount of space in the history book my AP History class is using.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

he equated it to be like a womans breast and he was going from Spain to India around the nipple not the base

Oh baby!

X-rated geography. :wink3:

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Gah...sorry...I lost my mind, I don't know what I was thinking. I'm...sorry. That's all I can say.

I didn't mean for it to come out like that. What I meant to say was that while one can say Columbus was an ass, one could say MLK was too. Everyone has their faults, but you must look past them in some cases.

Esp. when it comes to Italian Americans. I mean, we are the most discriminated against group in America. Period. I mean, despite that it was us (Amerigo Vespucci, Columbo, Caboto, et cetera), America hates us. More so than the blacks even. They've even gone so far as to taking away our rights to things we invented (i.e. The Telephone).

So this gets very personal for me, I've gotten into fights over these things. So I'll try not to lose it again. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

[solypsist]

oh please. please, please, please.




I mean, we are the most discriminated against group in America.

[Papewaio]

So I suppose in America pizza, pasta and lattes are very unpopular as they are associated with Italians. :coffeenews:

~:grouphug:

[Papewaio]

If I hit you over the head with an iron and call it a soft touch would you understand the term ironic statement?

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Ummm every immigrant group was discriminated against iirc. The Irish were, do I say that we need a holiday celebrating a famous Irish-American? No, that is because I don't need the nation to tell me to. Not saying you do, just saying what I do.
Also immigrants were never discriminated against quite as badly as blacks. Period, never happened, in people's minds even they were above the blacks.

[Redleg]

If I hit you over the head with an iron and call it a soft touch would you understand the term ironic statement?


Which Iron - if your going to hit me in the head with one I prefer a pitching wedge. ~:eek:

[Papewaio]

No I use pitching wedges in combination with a wedgie to truly make sure the individual will not breed... it is like a Darwin award but the individual gets to live but not propagate. ~;)

Normally it is a par 3 combo... two for the potatoes and one for the meat. :smash:

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Please, the amount of times I specifically get blamed for somthing simply because of the Mob innotations of being an Italian American is off the charts. In most cities, where Italians make up a large population, it isn't very much true, but in rural towns and heavily Anglo-Saxon populations, you bet there is.

Cops have stopped me simply because I *look* Italian. Then, we have the school district which is rascist against me and tries to rub all these organized crime statistics in my face on a regular basis. Slanders Columbus and Meucci, et cetera. To make it all the worse, we're white as well. There goes half our oppertunities to get into good schools.

On the other hand, in Modern America, blacks and hispanics have it MADE. Racial Quotas, modified SAT scores, the works. Anything to make their life easier. But at what expense? At our expense.

To be frank, I'm sick of it.

[Strike For The South]

Cops have stopped me simply because I *look* Italian. Then, we have the school district which is rascist against me and tries to rub all these organized crime statistics in my face on a regular basis. Slanders Columbus and Meucci, et cetera. To make it all the worse, we're white as well. There goes half our oppertunities to get into good schools.
To be frank, I'm sick of it.

Are you sure this had to do with you just being Italian~:rolleyes:

[Devastatin Dave]

CC was wrong in thinking the world was not a sphere ..he equated it to be like a womans breast

Thats strange, I equate the world as a giant butt hole thats got a lot of turds around it. Excluding present company of course...~D

[solypsist]

on any other board, you'd deserve to be banned for such over-the-top falseties. really.



On the other hand, in Modern America, blacks and hispanics have it MADE. Racial Quotas, modified SAT scores, the works. Anything to make their life easier. But at what expense? At our expense.

To be frank, I'm sick of it.

[Papewaio]

Thats strange, I equate the world as a giant butt hole thats got a lot of turds around it.

That is a more accurate description of the gravity field around a black hole ~D

[Soulforged]

Well what do you think of it?

I recently wrote a piece on Colombus Day for my school paper, it will be in Wednesday or Thursday's edition, I really don't see why the US celebrates him. It seems like he did a whole lot more harm than good. For one he treated the natives very brutally, even against the orders of the Spanish crown, he was a glory hound and even stole the glory of first seeing land from one of his own men, he was fairly inept when it came to predicting the Ocean's size and that of the Earth, and I'm sure there are many other things, but I think that's enough to start.
At least here we don't celebrate the figure of Colon (Columbus) itself, but the apparition of the new world before the "eyes" of the old one, thus the races united (in a very ample sense of the word :no:). So I don't see the whole problem here. Besides many "heros" of history were far more brutal...
Another thing, Columbus is Spanish, at least for a recent study, probably born in the zone of Catalunia.
The message of the success was forgotten by somebody here sadly... :no:

[Crazed Rabbit]

over-the-top falseties

Ever heard of affirmative action? Minorities (not including Asians) getting points on university applications for skin color?

Crazed Rabbit

[thrashaholic]

Just to be interesting: it was recently discovered that the first Europeans (and possibly first people) to step foot on America were a neolithic tribe from South-West France who sailed there during the ice age.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/columbus.shtml

[Kanamori]

Ever heard of affirmative action? Minorities (not including Asians) getting points on university applications for skin color?

The huge majority of people that go to college are white. What is wrong with trying to help minority families out by giving them the chance at a good education that they otherwise would not get because of socio-economic conditions?

[Goofball]

Well, without slavery, they'd still be in the dark ages in Africa, dying at age 30 of a cold.

~:eek:

With all due respect Kaiser, I suggest you take some courses in how not to say the most offensive, stupid, thoughtless possible things nearly every time you open your mouth.

Perhaps they offer them at you local community college.

Give them a call, please...

[Kanamori]

Because socio-economic conditions are a load of bull. The poor (like myself) can get though college on Student Loans. Entering into college should be on merit. Period.

Equal means equal.

The notion that someone's environment has no effect on them is ludicrous. I have never said that those who are impoverished, economically and socially, have no chance at moving up the ladder, only that it is much less likely that an impoverished person will move up than it is for someone who has been put in a better situation but has the same basic personal abilities. I am not taking away your freewill; those who have had lesser primary educations have a better chance of moving up if they want to than they would w/o such a system. I do not advocate giving them free money, and I do not see why we as a society should not make upward mobility more of a reality.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

on any other board, you'd deserve to be banned for such over-the-top falseties. really.

This isn't "any other board" that bans people based on the banners political ideology.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

on any other board, you'd deserve to be banned for such over-the-top falseties. really.
Over the top falseties? What falseties do you mention?

Many collages have Racial Quotas, and while such is de facto illegal, they are still enforced. And modified SAT scores due to race, economic system, etc. have been fact for a long time.


In the U.S., the most prominent form of affirmative action centers on access to education, particularly admission to universities and other forms of tertiary instruction. Race, ethnicity, native language, social class, geographical origin, parental attendance of the university in question (legacy admissions), and/or gender are often taken into account when assessing the meaning of an applicant's grades and test scores.


For example, the college admission chances of a female university student will tend to be equal to that of a male student with SAT scores fifty points higher than hers.


An affirmative action study by Princeton researchers in 2005 attempted to break down and compare the effects of the practice among racial and special groups. The data from the study represent admissions disadvantage and advantage in terms of SAT points (on 1600-point scale):

* Blacks: +230
* Hispanics: +185
* Asians: −50
* Recruited athletes: +200
* Legacies (children of alumni): +160


A simple Wikipedia search would reveal this. Read up.


With all due respect Kaiser, I suggest you take some courses in how not to say the most offensive, stupid, thoughtless possible things nearly every time you open your mouth.

Perhaps they offer them at you local community college.

Give them a call, please...

With all due respect, Goofball, I stopped giving a damn about who I offend a long time ago, about the time people stopped giving a damn if they insult me. A little after that, in fact. If the truth offends people, too bad. The truth is the truth, I don't beleive in sugar coating it. My wording may be a bit harsh, I admit, but nontheless, I doubt anything I say with half a serious intention is false.



The huge majority of people that go to college are white. What is wrong with trying to help minority families out by giving them the chance at a good education that they otherwise would not get because of socio-economic conditions?

The huge majority of America is also white. Your point?


white 81.7%, black 12.9%, Asian 4.2%, Amerindian and Alaska native 1%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.2% (2003 est.)
note: a separate listing for Hispanic is not included because the US Census Bureau considers Hispanic to mean a person of Latin American descent (including persons of Cuban, Mexican, or Puerto Rican origin) living in the US who may be of any race or ethnic group (white, black, Asian, etc.)

CIA World Factbook.


Are you sure this had to do with you just being Italian
Mostly at least. I mean, considering I get told that is is all the time. As a non-Italian, I wouldn't expect you to understand. :dizzy2:


Ever heard of affirmative action? Minorities (not including Asians) getting points on university applications for skin color?

Crazed Rabbit
Beat me to it. Thanks man. ~:cheers:

[Ser Clegane]

I didn't mean for it to come out like that. What I meant to say was that while one can say Columbus was an ass, one could say MLK was too. Everyone has their faults, but you must look past them in some cases.


Quite frankly you comparison is absolute nonsense - what exactly were the "faults" of MLK one has to "look past"?

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Quite frankly you comparison is absolute nonsense - what exactly were the "faults" of MLK one has to "look past"?
Is anyone perfect? That's the true question. Are you implying that a man was able to reach true perfection?

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Esp. when it comes to Italian Americans. I mean, we are the most discriminated against group in America.

I don't know where you get that (I would say Muslims would be most discriminated today).

Although I don't get that, I will say I'm sorry for all the people who have said anything to you along those lines. I will and would never make references to that unless I was playing around with you.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I don't know where you get that (I would say Muslims would be most discriminated today).

Although I don't get that, I will say I'm sorry for all the people who have said anything to you along those lines. I will and would never make references to that unless I was playing around with you.
The discrimination against Italian-Americans is weird, I'll put it that way. There's no set group that hates them, it just seems alot of Non-Italians in power hates them. That's why there will never be an Italian President. Hell, we have a better shot of having Ahnold than an Italian (Guiliani).

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

That's also because Guiliani is a liberal Republican - boo hiss (rightfully so) from sides of the political aisle.

[Steppe Merc]

Colombus was an ass. He didn't do anything, just subjegate the native peoples. He got lost. Yay.

[Strike For The South]

Mostly at least. I mean, considering I get told that is is all the time. As a non-Italian, I wouldn't expect you to understand. :dizzy2:


Um....Im half Italian and never encounterd this but okay

[PanzerJaeger]

Why do we celebrate MLK day? St. Pats day? Columbus day isnt the only worthless holiday..

[Uesugi Kenshin]

GC economic reasons WILL deter someone from going to college, and getting the most out of high school. All you have to do is take a look at the classes at my school, AP History; all the people there are fairly well off and their parents are involved/enthusiastic about theuir education, I believe 5-7 went to parent night. Honors, similar sort of situation, slightly more diverse, but with a few less parents going iirc. A level; less affluent, parents generally not very enthusiastic about their education, virtually no parents show up. If there is no interest in education at the student's house, or they are constantly having to do other things rather than study or do homework it is extremely hard to do well. It is possible to rise above poverty, but it is extremely difficult.

BTW I got the information on parent's night and all of that from talking to several of my teachers.

[Crazed Rabbit]

St. Pats day?

Are you calling the celebration of Saint Patrick's Day, honoring the saint who brought Christianity to the whole of Ireland, a useless holiday!?!?!?!

And I wonder how many people scorning Columbus's acievements would have the guts to go on a completely uncharted voyage through a ocean of unknown immensity, with no modern aids, on three small wooden ships, and bet their life on what noone knew.

Crazed Rabbit

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Um....Im half Italian and never encounterd this but okay
Your last name Italian? You look like an Italian?

You posted a pic once, and judging by that, you don't look Italian. So you wouldn't be discriminated against by random passerbys.

[Steppe Merc]

Are you calling the celebration of Saint Patrick's Day, honoring the saint who brought Christianity to the whole of Ireland, a useless holiday!?!?!?!

And I wonder how many people scorning Columbus's acievements would have the guts to go on a completely uncharted voyage through a ocean of unknown immensity, with no modern aids, on three small wooden ships, and bet their life on what noone knew.

Crazed Rabbit
Well why isn't there a Viking crossing and landing in Newfoundland day? Or a crossing of the English Channel by William the Bastard day? Or the Mongols cross the Gobi Desert day? Or Launch of the Apollo day?
Just because something is important doesn't mean it deserves a holiday.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Your pic didn't look terribly "Italian" either Kaiser. I've got a Jewish freind from California who looks just like you.
My pic was black and white. My skin color and accent give me off as a typical NY Italian.

[Kanamori]

Giving black and mexican people a better chance at getting into college has nothing to do with economic situation, or they'd do it for all poor people.

The idea is racial equality. Those minorities make less on average.http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2005/nativetrends/ShowTable.asp?table=tables/table_8_3.asp&indicator=8.3&excel=xls/table_8_3.xls&excelsize=18&excelse=xls/table_S_8_3.xls&excelsesize=18
The goal is to get these numbers -- for blacks, whites, latinos, etc. -- to match.
Poor school districts tend not to get as much money per student as wealthier districts do. Therefore, those poorer minorities on average have a lesser education at their disposal, which gives less opportunitiy for secondaryschooling.

Economic Situation will not deter you from seeking a higher education.

Not directly, no. Someone who lives in a violent ghetto has a very different life experience than someone who doesn't.


The huge majority of America is also white. Your point?


There is uneven distribution, though. http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2005/nativetrends/ShowTable.asp?table=tables/table_7_1b.asp&indicator=7.1&excel=xls/table_7_1b.xls&excelsize=15&excelse=xls/table_S_7_1b.xls&excelsesize=15

Simply put, if your education and economic standing were solely your choice, wouldn't you expect the averaged numbers to be the same for every race?

Obviously, it is not as simple as "I want to go to college, so I will."

[Kanamori]

The man had no vices that I know of.

He was not dedicated to his wife. He cheated on her sexually.


It's the greedy ingrates who spearheaded Afirmative Action and bastardized his dream of equality that are the asses.

"Whenever this issue [compensatory treatment] is raised, some of our friends recoil in horror. The Negro should be granted equality, they agree, but should ask for nothing more. On the surface, this appears reasonable, but is not realistic. For it is obvious that if a man enters the starting line of a race three hundred years after another man, the first would have to perform some incredible feat in order to catch up."

- MLK

[Byzantine Prince]

I think Christopher Columbus started something special. He is part of history's greatest figureheads and he should be remembered. The continent should be renamed Columbia IMO, but whatever. He also lived in Chios(Greece) as I hear.


I don't like MLK at all. I don't like how he is asking for something more then equality. African Americans are people and they are free now. They have equal rights, that's all they need in a country like America, a country that people [to this day] risk their necks to come to, sometimes with no economic assets at all.

Oh and need I mention the majority become successful in their ventures despite these hardships?

[King Henry V]

Am I the only person here who thinks that the more holidays, the better?~:cheers:

[Devastatin Dave]

Am I the only person here who thinks that the more holidays, the better?~:cheers:

Nope, you're not the only one!!! If Bill Clinton had a holiday I'd have another day off, drunk as a skunk (like most holidays!!!) with a cigar stuck in my butt in honor of him!!!~D

[Seamus Fermanagh]

My pic was black and white. My skin color and accent give me off as a typical NY Italian.

Which means you are largely of Southern Italian and/or Sicialian extraction. You should be pleased to know that you would be discriminated against by many of the "old school" folks in Northern Italy as well.

Moreover, lots of American Southerners will class you as crass and aggressive because of your NY verbal style.


What I'm driving at is -- get over it! There will always be people who react to you for stupid external reasons. If it prevents you from getting a job, keep good records and lodge the appropriate civil suit. Otherwise, write off people who treat you superficially and move on to those who don't. Life is too rich to wallow in self-pity, however well its seems justified.

Seamus

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Which means you are largely of Southern Italian and/or Sicialian extraction. You should be pleased to know that you would be discriminated against by many of the "old school" folks in Northern Italy as well.

Moreover, lots of American Southerners will class you as crass and aggressive because of your NY verbal style.


What I'm driving at is -- get over it! There will always be people who react to you for stupid external reasons. If it prevents you from getting a job, keep good records and lodge the appropriate civil suit. Otherwise, write off people who treat you superficially and move on to those who don't. Life is too rich to wallow in self-pity, however well its seems justified.

Seamus

I mostly ignore it, to be honest with you. But what pissess me off is alot of Blacks and other minorities not being able to get over it. Which makes me pissed, I've been through the same. if not worse, yet do I bring it up every 10 seconds? Do I play the rascist card? Nope.

[Xiahou]

Poor school districts tend not to get as much money per student as wealthier districts do.That statement is kind of obvious- poor means less money than wealthy. However, if you meant urban school districts vs rural/suburban school districts- I think you're wrong in most cases. Large cities have huge tax bases, and more importantly, with poorer students they're entitled to a much larger chunk of the available federal monies.

For example, in 2003 the median expenditures per student was $7,254, while Washington DC school district spent $11,847 per student, far above the average. Of course, they're still getting terrible educations- but that's another matter.
link (http://nces.ed.gov/ccd/pubs/npefs03/findings.asp)

[Soulforged]

I really don't understand most posts here, for what I know the Columbus Day is not exactly Columbus Day, but the Day of Ethnicism (to put it in some way).~:confused:

[Don Corleone]

1) Columbus didn't 'discover' America, St. Brendan did.

2) He didn't establish the first colony in North America, Leif Ericsson did.

3) Columbus, in an effort to find a shorter trade route to India, proved to the Europeans that there were lands here ready for colonization & exploitation. What has happened in the 513 years since his voyage really depends upon what side of history upon which you happened to land.

Columbus was a vile bastard. If he hadn't sailed to the Western Hemisphere the EU wouldn't be plagued with the ultimate evil it now faces, the United States of America [/sarcasm off]

Honestly folks, that's how the European crowd's coming off (and of course, Tachikaze can't miss his chance to get a few licks in). Yes, Kasier's being a bit nationalistic, but you are engaging in a bit of snobbery yourselves. But of course, I'm just paranoid, you're all above that sort of thing...

[Soulforged]

1) Columbus didn't 'discover' America, St. Brendan did.
Columbus discovered a land to the west of Europe of the size of a continent, a guy named Americo Vespuci gave the land his name. The term discovered also must have some reciprocity on the information and noticing of it's existence. Yes the vikings discovered it previously, but Europe didn't give it much importance, the one that had some effects was the one of Columbus

2) He didn't establish the first colony in North America, Leif Ericsson did.So...

3) Columbus, in an effort to find a shorter trade route to India, proved to the Europeans that there were lands here ready for colonization & exploitation. What has happened in the 513 years since his voyage really depends upon what side of history upon which you happened to land. No what happened is out there written, if you want to analize it from your own subjective point of view is another problem, but it doesn't depends on that. I'm really amazed in how people see some "killers" (to say it in some manner) like Julius Gaius Caesar or Alexander the Great like real heros or people worthy of celebration, and others that did basically the same as vile and demonized.
Said this I ask again, maybe someone can give me an answer: Why is that this discussion surrounds the figure of Columbus and penetrates it, when in reallity the Columbus Day is the celebration of ethnical differences...

[Don Corleone]

Soulforged,

I'm not sure I follow your intent, except to besmirch any historical figure of European descent.

You do realize that at the time Columbus landed, the Sioux and the Pawnee fought some horrible wars that included genocides of entire villages visited upon the other side? There were no 'noble innocents' living over here. You also realize that in many ways, Columbus and the subsequent European colonization was a de facto result of the over population pressures renaissance Europe was experiencing. I cannot argue that one can blindly assign the role of hero to Columbus. But your lablelling him a 'killer' as you say shows an equal bias, in this case against him and the Euro-centric view. Perhaps you could make an effort to remain objective and view European colonialism as part of the human tapestry. I'm sure the countless civilizations that had the misfortune to encounter the Aztecs, the Incas and the Sioux, all of whom practiced the same sort of genocide the Europeans practiced upon them, would tell you there's not much difference between a Cortez and a Montezuma.

[Soulforged]

I'm not sure I follow your intent, except to besmirch any historical figure of European descent. Simple answer my final question, because I think that this discussion started wrong from the begining...

You do realize that at the time Columbus landed, the Sioux and the Pawnee fought some horrible wars that included genocides of entire villages visited upon the other side?Yes, here it happened too, in all America.
There were no 'noble innocents' living over here. You also realize that in many ways, Columbus and the subsequent European colonization was a de facto result of the over population pressures renaissance Europe was experiencing. Yes...
I cannot argue that one can blindly assign the role of hero to Columbus. Neither, nor I want to, I just want to point out that this is not about Colombus.
But your lablelling him a 'killer' as you say shows an equal bias, in this case against him and the Euro-centric view. You want me to call him a Conqueror (an "Adelantado" like the Spanish kings called them) following the classic sentence it's the same.
Perhaps you could make an effort to remain objective and view European colonialism as part of the human tapestry. I'm remaining objective you were the one to take sarcasm and call him a "vile bastard". I don't care if Caesar of Columbus were bastards or not, but it surprises me that the discussion over their personalities, of wich we don't know nothing about, always take place, and we can say who was the bastard and who not.
I'm sure the countless civilizations that had the misfortune to encounter the Aztecs, the Incas and the Sioux, all of whom practiced the same sort of genocide the Europeans practiced upon them, would tell you there's not much difference between a Cortez and a Montezuma.No there isn't and it was never my point, you misunderstood me, however my final question remains still unasnwered...

[Kanamori]

Poor school districts tend not to get as much money per student as wealthier districts do.That statement is kind of obvious- poor means less money than wealthy.

There is the possiblity of a big enough disparity between tax rates that each district could use to fund their respective schools resulting in more money per student in the poorer district. I cannot think of one example of this, but the possibility is there and taht is why I chose the wussier statement w/ "tend". Perhaps, there was confusion to who was poor: the raw amount of money a school district has, being poor in that sense, versus the district being an impoverished area. I meant the latter.

[Don Corleone]

Sorry, I should have read your final question more closely, as actually, I got the most out of it from your post.

All civilizations have creation myths. As any Western civilization in the New World was created in 1492, they frame their existence in light of Columbus (as far as we know, none of the viking settlements in Newfoundland proved viable). The Mormons offer some alternative ideas, but most anthropologists agree that Western civilization entered the Western Hemisphere with Columbus and the Conquistadores that followed.

So, while Columbus may very well be an Italian American folk hero, at the same time, he is viewed, metahporically as the founder of Western civilization in the New World, by the Westernized occupants of the New World, as well as by the indigenous peoples of the Americas (and Africa) that trace the begining of their woes to his arrival at San Juan, and even by those members of the Westernized Old World that are not all that happy about these upstarts who know not their place. All three groups trace the lineage of this historical event/problem/divergence to the mythological Columbus. It's not the man that's worshipped/villified every 2nd Monday of October (except of course by Italian Americans in the United States, and for them, it's a cultural heritage celebration) it's the idea that he represents.... European influence in Africa, North America and South America.

[Productivity]

What I find interesting is how readily Capo/Kaiser is willing to switch between being proud and accepting of his Italian heritage and being ashamed and denying it.

When there's something to be proud of he's going round saying he has the heritage. When there's something to be ashamed of (in his view anyway) he's denying the heritage (to the extent of changing his login here). Either you accept it and take the good with the bad, or you deny it and take neither the good or the bad - picking and choosing is just pathetic.

[Soulforged]

So, while Columbus may very well be an Italian American folk hero, at the same time, he is viewed, metahporically as the founder of Western civilization in the New World, by the Westernized occupants of the New World, as well as by the indigenous peoples of the Americas (and Africa) that trace the begining of their woes to his arrival at San Juan, and even by those members of the Westernized Old World that are not all that happy about these upstarts who know not their place. All three groups trace the lineage of this historical event/problem/divergence to the mythological Columbus. It's not the man that's worshipped/villified every 2nd Monday of October (except of course by Italian Americans in the United States, and for them, it's a cultural heritage celebration) it's the idea that he represents.... European influence in Africa, North America and South America.And I agree, exactly my point, but everyone misses it and demonises Columbus when there's no point on doint it.
And Columbus, Colón, Colom was spanish:link (http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/columbus/evidence/explore_05.html)

[Kaiser of Arabia]

And I agree, exactly my point, but everyone misses it and demonises Columbus when there's no point on doint it.
And Columbus, Colón, Colom was spanish:link (http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/columbus/evidence/explore_05.html)
It's been established long before your study from Discovery Channel, a very weird resource (I find half the stuff they claim ludicrous), that Columbus was a Genoan.

[Soulforged]

It's been established long before your study from Discovery Channel, a very weird resource (I find half the stuff they claim ludicrous), that Columbus was a Genoan.
Well if you've any way to refute their findings (wich are not their's of course, but from private investigators), then show them...

[Divinus Arma]

Colombus discoverd that trash on the 12th. On my b-day.

Therefore, colombus monkey day rocks out, oh yeah!

[Steppe Merc]

Mabye Colombus was important. But why not celebrate other people who helped shaped today? Why not William the Bastard day, for introducing new influences to England? Or a bunch of people cross the Bering strait (though there were people earlier here than commonly believed). Or Arasces Day, celebrating the fact that by conquering Parthia, he allowed his predescors to restore Iranian culture to Iran. There are a whole bunch of pivotal events and people through out history, that does not mean they need a holiday.

That said, I'd be for it if I got off of school for it. But I don't, so I have the reason to condem it. ~D

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Mabye Colombus was important. But why not celebrate other people who helped shaped today? Why not William the Bastard day, for introducing new influences to England? Or a bunch of people cross the Bering strait (though there were people earlier here than commonly believed). Or Arasces Day, celebrating the fact that by conquering Parthia, he allowed his predescors to restore Iranian culture to Iran. There are a whole bunch of pivotal events and people through out history, that does not mean they need a holiday.

That said, I'd be for it if I got off of school for it. But I don't, so I have the reason to condem it. ~D

I take off school for it, though they don't give it to us. My way of protesting.

We should celebrate alot more people. Vespucci, Patton, Eisenhower, Lee, Houston, Gates, Lafeyette, etc. But we don't. Why take away things we do celebrate, then?

[Strike For The South]

I get off~:cheers: *thinks how happy he is to be attending a lax Texas public high school*

[Soulforged]

I take off school for it, though they don't give it to us. My way of protesting.

We should celebrate alot more people. Vespucci, Patton, Eisenhower, Lee, Houston, Gates, Lafeyette, etc. But we don't. Why take away things we do celebrate, then?
I think that you're understimating the impact of the discovery of Columbus, the picture of all the world changed in that critical movement. On the other hand why should I celebrate the day of Eisenhower, Lee, Houston, Gates, Lafeyette? This are only USA celebrities not world wide, Columbus is, at least in western society.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I think that you're understimating the impact of the discovery of Columbus, the picture of all the world changed in that critical movement. On the other hand why should I celebrate the day of Eisenhower, Lee, Houston, Gates, Lafeyette? This are only USA celebrities not world wide, Columbus is, at least in western society.
That's what I'm refering to, because as far as I know, Columbus day is really only that big of a deal in America. ~:)

[Soulforged]

That's what I'm refering to, because as far as I know, Columbus day is really only that big of a deal in America. ~:)
Well then you're not aware of it's importance in the rest of America at least...

[yesdachi]

Ummm every immigrant group was discriminated against iirc. The Irish were, do I say that we need a holiday celebrating a famous Irish-American? No, that is because I don't need the nation to tell me to. Not saying you do, just saying what I do.
Also immigrants were never discriminated against quite as badly as blacks. Period, never happened, in people's minds even they were above the blacks.
There is St. Patty's day, although he wasnt irish-amnerican the holiday does make for a fine irish pride day.~:cheers:

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I think it's more of an excuse to get drunk for most....
Besides on St. Patty's Day most people pretend to be Irish or join in anyway. Anyway the point was not every ethnicity has a famous figure celebrated and it doesn't exactly matter that Columbus was Italian, or Spanish or whatever, you still have to take into account the atrocities and trends he encouraged and perpatrated.

[Soulforged]

I think it's more of an excuse to get drunk for most....
Besides on St. Patty's Day most people pretend to be Irish or join in anyway. Anyway the point was not every ethnicity has a famous figure celebrated and it doesn't exactly matter that Columbus was Italian, or Spanish or whatever, you still have to take into account the atrocities and trends he encouraged and perpatrated.
Not you're wrong. The only thing that matters really is what the moment of his discovery represents, taking all the killing aside, that's what's celebrated in Columbus Day, not the figure of Columbus itself or his doings.

[ichi]

A) I get a paid day off

B) Lots of people did bad things over the course of history

C) It'll be the next US holiday that gets revisited, prolly renamed/readjusted to commemorate Reagan or the Iraq war, followed by Labor Day, which will become Halliburton Corporate Interests Day (which we will all be required to work and give our earnings to Cheney)

D) Somewhat surprised this thread hasnt been locked

ichi:bow:

[yesdachi]

I think it's more of an excuse to get drunk for most....
Besides on St. Patty's Day most people pretend to be Irish or join in anyway. Anyway the point was not every ethnicity has a famous figure celebrated and it doesn't exactly matter that Columbus was Italian, or Spanish or whatever, you still have to take into account the atrocities and trends he encouraged and perpatrated.
I agree, just pointing out that there is an irish holiday.:bow:

[Uesugi Kenshin]

That's what I figured.

I think the people who celebrate Columbus Day around here are actually either celebrating Columbus or just having a day off....
Either way it isn't particularly good IMHO.
Of the people I know the ones who think enough to come to the conclusion that Columbus was a pretty nasty guy and instead, celebrate what his/his crewman's moment of discovery represent, don't think we should have a day off for him, although they do support having a day off for something. The rest just don't think enough about it, and often history in general. It seems like only a very small number of people would end up celebrating what the moment represents.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

All holidays today have been so commercialised as to be far removed from their oringinal intent. Heck putting them all on mondays so you always get a three day weekend. Do you think they did that just so you could get three days off in a row. I actually liked it better the old way by the date. And we got Washington and Linclons birthdays off. Now we have Presidents day and Martin Luther King Day Gah. I guess it was hard to make their birthdays always arrive on a monday :)

[Azi Tohak]

I'm glad we can celebrate what happened. Opened up a part of the globe that was for all intents and purposes unknown. Did bad things happen because of Columbus and his bull-headedness? Well yes. But lets be honest, bad things happen because of anything. Easter, 4th of July, Honest Abe's birthday are the ones that jump to mind.

Of course, we could dwell on all the bad things that happened.

But I prefer not to. I wish I had gotten Monday off, but for some reason, I got last Monday off. No clue why, besides "Fall Break".

Azi

[Soulforged]

All holidays today have been so commercialised as to be far removed from their oringinal intent. Heck putting them all on mondays so you always get a three day weekend. Do you think they did that just so you could get three days off in a row. I actually liked it better the old way by the date. And we got Washington and Linclons birthdays off. Now we have Presidents day and Martin Luther King Day Gah. I guess it was hard to make their birthdays always arrive on a monday :)So that actually happens around the world too...It's too much, I agree.