Riots in France? [Archive]

el_slapper

11-02-2005, 17:53

~:mecry: Seen from France :

There has been problems in our "suburbs"(understand big, ugly buildings with zounds of flats) since the 70s. Poor tend to go there as it's too costly to go elsewhere, & most 1st generation immigrants tend to be poor.

So you have a different population stuck over there, poorer, & with a massive immigrant part. Add to it the myth that immigrants would "come back to their country" after a few years of making money(who would come back to a poor dictature with a failing health system? when living in France?), and you'll have a grasp upon the level of ignorance each part of the population hold the other one in.

The beginning of the story itself is really enlightening of our current mess. There is a burglary. It happens. Some cops come so see what's happening. Those 3 kids(and many others), not known of police, not criminals, not involved in the burglary, all honest, flee the police as if they were criminals. Then 2 of them die in an accident. And then Sarkozy the ******, our beloved minister of interior, did say they were criminals seeked for the burglary.....

Of course, they killed themselves. That's not their death that caused the riots - that's what's lying behind. Racism is an unfortunate truth in our country, & it's tougher to find a job when you're arab or black. That plus Sarkozy's agressive behaviour towards people living therein, & you have the ingredients for riots, & not only in Clichy-sous-Bois.

Myself did witness the behaviour of cops in the railway station. Me white have no problem. Blacks are, mmmmh, not that well treated. That's not really violence, just that they are far more annoyed. And it gets on their nerves. Same for arabs.

The "headscarf ban" in itself is just an example of misunderstanding between communities. The problem is deeper. And when my colleague in front of me says that Azouz Begag should not be allowed to be minister as he's arab, I fear we're not out of that mess ~:mecry:

BDC

11-02-2005, 18:22

Myself did witness the behaviour of cops in the railway station. Me white have no problem. Blacks are, mmmmh, not that well treated. That's not really violence, just that they are far more annoyed. And it gets on their nerves. Same for arabs.

I saw this on my one train trip through France. I've no problems standing about looking suspicious, some black guy my age was being hastled by a bunch of transport police endlessly.

Redleg

11-02-2005, 18:24

Radier

11-02-2005, 19:15

Then comes the question, why do they take in so many immegrants? There is nothing possitive at all to build up ghettos in the suburbs. I say, those who riot shall imediatly be sent out from France.

This is the same think that happened in the immegrant ghetto of Ronna here in Sweden. Maybe worse... ~:handball:

Meneldil

11-02-2005, 20:16

Those 3 kids(and many others), not known of police, not criminals, not involved in the burglary, all honest, flee the police as if they were criminals. Then 2 of them die in an accident. And then Sarkozy the ******, our beloved minister of interior, did say they were criminals seeked for the burglary.....

Real proof of that ? As far as I know, nobody can say if they were involved with the burglary (sp?) or not. And after having worked with this kind of people for a few months, I wouldn't say they were honest ~:rolleyes:
They were stupid, and they deserved to die. Pardon me, but I doubt they flee because they were innocent. And if they are stupid enough to die that way, that's their problem.

Of course, they killed themselves. That's not their death that caused the riots - that's what's lying behind. Racism is an unfortunate truth in our country, & it's tougher to find a job when you're arab or black. That plus Sarkozy's agressive behaviour towards people living therein, & you have the ingredients for riots, & not only in Clichy-sous-Bois.

Oh god, this is the kind of argument I hate. Do you think blacks and arabs have no problem when they want to find a job in other countries ? Now, go and try to find a job in Algeria if you're the average white-french guy. Good luck.
Racism works in the two way. Do you think the average french dislike these people because they are black, or arab ? I'd rather say they dislike them because they hate France, they hate the French, they don't give a crap about rapping a girl, beating to death an old guy because he took a photo of their neighbourhood, and so on. Now, I have no problem with a lot of arabs/blacks. I live in a village with a high non-white population, and there's no serious trouble here (although most of the problems are due to guess what, arab people). But the guys rioting in Clichy should just - at worst - be put in jail until the end of their lives, or - at best - be bombed back to the stone age.
Right now, these cities aren't part of France. They have their own laws, their own customs, and if you don't respect them, you ought to be beaten quite badly if you're lucky, or killed if you're unlucky.

Adrian II

11-02-2005, 20:30

Right now, these cities aren't part of France.That is what some Conservative Americans here said about New Orleans. Same attitude, same blindness to the truth. Of course places like Clichy are a part of your nation, culture and political make-up; they do not just grow on you overnight. The least you can say is that the rest of France -- the real France as you put it -- helped create them.

Seamus Fermanagh

11-02-2005, 20:52

Come off it Adrian, you consistently posit this line of excrement that suggests that people should not be held responsible for their own actions. You repeatedly suggest that society is responsible for the antecedent conditions creating such incidents and imply that society therefore should just put up with them. This is errant nonsense.

France no more forced these disgruntled immigrants to riot than did the New Orleans PD force people to loot. The individuals involved chose to vent their anger in an illegal and violent fashion. They should take the appropriate punishment. If you are going to "go to the barricades" than you had best be prepared to accept the live fire coming back across them from the ruling authority -- that's how rioting and revolution is played.

Perhaps if humans were capable of communism like ants we wouldn't have any inequity or iniquity and we'd all live is some little socialist utopia. Since that's about as likely as Python's ervine aviation scheme, you could better spend your time thinking of some practical responses such as: limiting immigration, reducing taxes to creat jobs and grow the economy and maybe a little private gun ownership and training to enhance personal safety (that last is just for you Caeser 10).

Adrian II

11-02-2005, 21:09

Come off it Adrian, you consistently posit this line of excrement that suggests that people should not be held responsible for their own actions.Find yourself another strawman.

Meneldil

11-02-2005, 21:12

That is what some Conservative Americans here said about New Orleans. Same attitude, same blindness to the truth. Of course places like Clichy are a part of your nation, culture and political make-up; they do not just grow on you overnight. The least you can say is that the rest of France -- the real France as you put it -- helped create them.

Adrian, do not misunderstand me. We (the French) are partly responsible for that situation. By housing all immigrants in a same place, my ancestors seriously screwed things up. But then, some people from these cities achieved to find a job, to get out of here, to found a familly, to create companies...How do you explain that ? If the wished to, they could get a real life. They just don't care about that. They spend their time doing nothing, or burning cars, attacking innocents, throwing stones at firemen and so on and live thanks to drug dealing and to our social system. Period. They are also responsible for their situation (and right now, they are probably more responsible than the average frenchman).

When I said this places were out of France, I meant that French laws aren't used here. They have their own laws, based on 'Honor', 'Respect' (as long as raping a girl is considered honorable), their own language and other nonsense like that. Policemen and Firemen are sometimes powerless.

Adrian II

11-02-2005, 21:21

Adrian, do not misunderstand me. We (the French) are partly responsible for that situation. By housing all immigrants in a same place, my ancestors seriously screwed things up.Right, I believe some Communist mayors even contributed to that in order to 'create' a new, socially isolated and economically bereft electorate for themselves. Until French public opinion turned against migrants in the early eighties and began to vote for Le Pen. And those same Communist mayors began bulldozering those same migrant quarters to make place for 'honest' French workers... So do not misunderstand me either, it takes all sorts of idiots to create situations like that. For instance by 'giving up' on those gettos that are in the public eye right now, the French state compounded the problems of many honest migrants.
They have their own laws, based on 'Honor', 'Respect' (as long as raping a girl is considered honorable) and other nonsense like that.I also believe there is a protest movement against such customs, led by women and youths from those same quarters. Ni pute, ni soumise, no?

Surely they are French in your book? ~;)

Devastatin Dave

11-02-2005, 21:30

Meneldil

11-02-2005, 21:33

Well, if you ask me, my previous post (the one that could have been written by PJ, Kapo or any american fascist wannabe) sounds disgusting, even for me. I'm the first one to make fun of the people who make this kind of statement, but now, things are going too far.
I wouldn't say I'm not racist, because I think that right now, the Western culture is superior to other cultures. But this is not racism. (Most of) The people in these cities are just savages that deserve to be killed on sight. Whites included. Period. They have no values beside their own utterly limited, barbarian screwed up way of thinking.

Sure, we should do our best in order to help integration, to not build new ghetto cities. But we can't do anything realistic for the current ones, except destroying them, and getting ride of the people who're living here. There's no way they could integrate into the french society, get a job and have a decent life, respectful of their fellow countrymates.

For instance by 'giving up' on those gettos that are in the public eye right now, the French state compounded the problems of many honest migrants.

Agreed.

I have had bowel movements that had more substance than this rubbish you posted Adrian. Unbelievable....

Are you speaking about that

Awesome!!!

Great!!!

Yes...

Not too much of a shock. Of course the Brits as well as the rest of Europe better find Allah soon or they'll get converted the hard way once the demographics change it to EurArabia...
I can't find the substance in your last couple of replies ?

Adrian II

11-02-2005, 21:40

I have had bowel movements that had more substance than this rubbish you posted Adrian. Unbelievable....Can we stop the anal references in this thread?

Look, New Orleans was a special place, and generations of Americans loved and appreciated, admired and coveted it precisely for the vices which you and other Conservatives on this forum excoriated recently, in the wake of Katrina, as being the cause of all New Orleans' ills. Generations of Americans have visited, brought (or lost) their money to New Orleans, and helped foster this loose culture that you now deplore. I remember very well the words of author Richard Ford after Katrina hit that town. 'It is - New Orleans is - a city foremost for special projections, for the things you can't do, see, think, consume, feel, forget up in Jackson or Little Rock or home in Topeka.'

New Orleans was part of America precisely because it was not.

Go on, deny it. I don't care.

Devastatin Dave

11-02-2005, 21:49

Can we stop the anal references in this thread?
I'll stop when you stop posting your masterbation material (Abu Grad pics). Deal?:bow:

Geoffrey S

11-02-2005, 21:58

Edit: not the right place.

Redleg

11-02-2005, 21:59

Lets see a thread about France and my honest question about the news report I saw on CNN for a brief second.

Lets see el_slapper and Meneldil give what seems an honest personal opinion on the story - and someone who is not french decides to argue using New Orleans as a comparision.
~:joker:

Talking about the wrong approach - especially since this thread was not about New Orleans and the United States - but the riots in France,

Oh well it seems that some people just can not leave the United States out of a discussion - even when its not about the United States.

Oh well I got at least two honest answers in the thread before it degenerated into something else. :bow:

Geoffrey S

11-02-2005, 22:01

Thinking about it, agreed. Removed my off-topic post.

Adrian II

11-03-2005, 00:01

But this is not racism. (Most of) The people in these cities are just savages that deserve to be killed on sight. Whites included. Period.It is not racism, I have to hand you that. But your solution does not sound appropriate. Or adequate for that matter. After decades of neglect and ignored warnings, we are now seeing the sort of conflagrations in Clichy that we have seen in British inner cities. If you withdraw the rule of law from a vulnerable, socially weak community, violent people and primitive solutions are bound to prevail, as they do in all no-go areas of the world.

Like I said, movements like Ni pute, ni soumise also originate in these communities, and there must be more like-minded movements and positive developments that could be the starting points in a drive for real change. Provided there is a real effort. Shoot-to-kill policies such as you advocate will only make the situation worse and prolong the troubles.

Unless, of course, you favour an all-out, SS-type operation that destroys entire blocks or neighbourhoods. In which case you might as well send your warmest regards to Mr Bin Laden.
~:confused:

Adrian II

11-03-2005, 00:43

Oh well I got at least two honest answers in the thread before it degenerated into something else. :bow:You're nothing but a pop-up in your own thread. Live with it.
https://img31.imageshack.us/img31/3465/blotebillengif8to.gif

Redleg

11-03-2005, 01:12

You're nothing but a pop-up in your own thread. Live with it.
https://img31.imageshack.us/img31/3465/blotebillengif8to.gif

Whats wrong Adrian you don't like being called on using a strawman approach.

By the way you need to wave your ass in your own direction ~:joker: since your making one of yourself. ~:eek:

econ21

11-03-2005, 02:29

Why does every other thread in the Backroom have to turn nasty recently? Speaking not as a mod (I have no responsibilities for the Backroom) but as a patron, I think we really need to raise the standard here, people. Is it really necessary to start off a rebuttal by saying what you are rebutting is a "pile of excrement", Seamus? That's just effectively ensuring the person you are trying to rebutt will not engage with you on the substance of what you are saying. And personally, I think it is a pretty cheap way of trying to get around the "foul language" rule. Dave's post in the same vein was not even redeemed by having any substance. Adrian, your "smilie" to Redleg was just fighting fire with fire - and arguably targeting the wrong poster.

There was a time when I could read these threads without my blood boiling, maybe even post and get a decent exchange with Redleg, Adrian or whoever. This thread was informative, until people started being discourteous. I'd like to enter into an exchange with Menedil and El Slapper on the substance of this thread, but right now the bad vibes I'm getting from this thread are literally making me queasy and is putting me off attempting to do so. Similar things have been going on in the Iranian photo thread, the godless Brit thread where I might have liked to have posted but the tone of some of the posts just lowered the quality of the threads to the point where I was happier to see them die. It's just ugly and we should do better.

With these kind of issues we are likely to find the substance of what some others say ugly, even if they express themselves perfectly civilly and respectfully. We owe it to ourselves to try to respond to it in a polite civilised way if any. If we try to debate it in the ugly style displayed here, we may as well just be blowing raspberries at each other.

Maybe I am just being delusional, but I think we used to be better than this. I know we can do better.

~:grouphug:

bmolsson

11-03-2005, 02:34

Redleg

11-03-2005, 03:14

There was a time when I could read these threads without my blood boiling, maybe even post and get a decent exchange with Redleg, Adrian or whoever. This thread was informative, until people started being discourteous. I'd like to enter into an exchange with Menedil and El Slapper on the substance of this thread, but right now the bad vibes I'm getting from this thread are literally making me queasy and is putting me off attempting to do so. Similar things have been going on in the Iranian photo thread, the godless Brit thread where I might have liked to have posted but the tone of some of the posts just lowered the quality of the threads to the point where I was happier to see them die. It's just ugly and we should do better.

:bow:

Papewaio

11-03-2005, 03:22

Be polite to each other and attack the arguement not the person.

IrishMike

11-03-2005, 03:53

Seamus Fermanagh

11-03-2005, 04:18

Be polite to each other and attack the arguement not the person.

My response to Adrian was, I agree, crass. However, I did aim my commentary at a view/series of views he has expressed and not at Adrian personally. He is probably a decent bloke, kind to his neighbors, involved in his community and beloved by family, friends, and his pet. I still disagree vehemently with the line he often espouses on such issues.

Redleg

11-03-2005, 04:35

Probaly showing my ingorance here but i'll go ahead and ask in the spirit of getting the discussion back on the tracks.

Do these riots bear any likeness to the race riots and civil rights movement we had here in the United States? From what i've seen it looks to be the same, just with different groups and a tad bit different issues. Do they stem from legal inequality, social level differences, or just riots for no reason?

From what I can tell from el_slapper and Meneldil responses it seems to be more pronounced then the race riots that affected several of our cities and the civil rights movement, but less systemic then what happen in the United States.

It seems to be a major clash of cultures and the failure of the Nation of France as a whole to intergrate the new immigrants into the national culture of France. Edit: In simple terms I am getting the impression that France took the immigrants and then shoved them into the corner and tried to forget about them as people.

But that is just my take on it.

Adrian II

11-03-2005, 09:25

Why does every other thread in the Backroom have to turn nasty recently?Dear Simon, you are dead wrong. Some of us are having quite a bit of fun lately. For instance Devastating Dave and me. Many others take themselves too darn serious to appreciate a joke or laugh at themselves. Too bad.

Meanwhile, the only two who actually have a discussion going in this thread are Meneldil and me. Care to join, anyone? What do you think of his proposal to shoot each and every inhabitant of the French immigrant quarters?

Adrian II

11-03-2005, 09:34

France need to go through some humiliating changes to survive. Their earlier dominant position in Europe is no longer there and it's hard for the ordinary french citizen to accept that. Viva la France is not so elegant any longer.....What has that got to do with the immigrant riots? And by the way, France's greatness as well as many of her tribulations have often been marked by tremendous riots - several revolutions come to mind...

Meneldil

11-03-2005, 09:59

It seems to be a major clash of cultures and the failure of the Nation of France as a whole to intergrate the new immigrants into the national culture of France. Edit: In simple terms I am getting the impression that France took the immigrants and then shoved them into the corner and tried to forget about them as people.

But that is just my take on it.

Basically, that's it. And we failed so badly that there's IMO nothing else to do than doing as if there weren't here or shooting them all.

Do they stem from legal inequality, social level differences, or just riots for no reason?

Well, there's obviously a lot of problems with the way my country handled the huge number of migrants, that caused the current situation. But the people rioting now are doing it just for the fun of it. They have absolutely no claim, no opinion. They just want to fight with cops, throw stones at firemen and burn cars.
Just so you understand the crap we have to deal with, that's also the way they have fun during christmas : they burn cars, wait for the firemen to come and then throw stones at them.

Adrian II

11-03-2005, 10:16

But the people rioting now are doing it just for the fun of it.Just young people, right? The older immigrants don't play a role in all of this, except that they lament their cars being set on fire. And Sarkozy's remark that these youngsters are all 'scum' ('racaille') did not exactly help to restore order, it seems to have been the straw that broke the camel's back. Many youths in these quarters have been treated like scum for years, subjected to police harassment, public humiliation, etcetera. And they are not just without jobs, they are without the prospect of a job in the foreseeable future. But that is just a secundary complaint compared to the offense to their dignity of being called 'scum' on tv, and by a government minister, merely because they are of Arab origin.

bmolsson

11-03-2005, 10:31

What has that got to do with the immigrant riots? And by the way, France's greatness as well as many of her tribulations have often been marked by tremendous riots - several revolutions come to mind...

It has everything to do with the immigrant riots. The high unemployment among immigrants as well as the concentration of them to certain areas creates a tense situation where the "socialist ideals" currently rather strong in France can't live up to what it has promised. You can't be a socialist in one moment and then just ignore the people in the other.
France needs to get unions as well as red tape under control and promote the entrepreneural spirit often found among the immigrants. This would create commerce and lower un-employment.

Fragony

11-03-2005, 11:36

Meneldil

11-03-2005, 11:54

Just young people, right? The older immigrants don't play a role in all of this, except that they lament their cars being set on fire. And Sarkozy's remark that these youngsters are all 'scum' ('racaille') did not exactly help to restore order, it seems to have been the straw that broke the camel's back. Many youths in these quarters have been treated like scum for years, subjected to police harassment, public humiliation, etcetera. And they are not just without jobs, they are without the prospect of a job in the foreseeable future. But that is just a secundary complaint compared to the offense to their dignity of being called 'scum' on tv, and by a government minister, merely because they are of Arab origin.

Err, well, someone whose main interest is to burn cars is indeed a scum.
I don't know where you got the idea that they were aims of 'police harassment, public humiliation etcetera'. Police usually do not bother to go to this cities, since they quickly turn as good targets for the local 'throw everything you can at them. Yes, that includes fridges or sofa' sport.

And the unemployment rate in Clichy for example is only of 14% (which is less than in Montpellier). Add to that the fact they get a whole lot of money thanks to robbering or illegal dealings or social helps, and have illegal jobs. Most of these poor youngs are in fact wealthier than the average french worker. The wear clothes more expensive than my whole wardrobe, drive cars I'll never get a chance to buy (although they're often not even 18 or don't have their license, and thus not allowed to drive, but heh, who cares anyway).

And the older people play a role, since they gave up with the education of their children.

InsaneApache

11-03-2005, 12:07

Geez Adrian, Paris is burning, they are scum. We have seen this kind of stuff In Antwerp, and now in Paris, and soon here as well. Now what do these cities have in common? These little terrorists just need a reason to go berzerk, and any reason will do.

Interesting. I was in Antwerpen in the last month and I have to say that in the city centre the only white faces I saw was the cops. Now I live in Bradford where we had our own 'ethnic' riots a few years back and I am well used to living in a multi-cultural environ. Having said that, I was shocked at the amount of 'immigrants' milling around....guys there were hundreds of them. I gained the impression that they were waiting for something. It was decidedly dodgy (intimidating) so I got into the car and buggered off. If I was an indiginous resident I would be feeling very trepidatious.
BTW what do all those red lights mean in the front rooms of the houses just out of town? ~D

Fragony

11-03-2005, 12:23

I gained the impression that they were waiting for something.

Well they are if you ask me, but hey shaorma tastes good ~:rolleyes:

And I have no idea what these things are! Why do they dress like that even in the winter??? Cold!

el_slapper

11-03-2005, 13:06

Thanks el_slapper

The story as reported just didn't make sense - It seems France will be suffering from several problems for many years to come - until from what you described it fixes its immigrantion policies, and a few social ills that have developed over the years because of that. Or am I misreading what you stated?

Well, the problem lies in the 60's immigration. So no change in our current policies will fix the problem whatsoever. Most rioters were born in France, and for some of them their parents were.

We WILL be suffering problems. Meneldil is right too when he describes the problem - just that he sees that from an external point of view. Which is very different from my point of view - I tend to know some people from the "suburbs". And our opposition is a good light of the problem. For the "suburb" inhabitants, the french state is a police state which opress minorities, a racist state who is especially an enemy of Islam. For inhabitants of elsewhere, "suburb" inhabitants are violent scum dreaming of reinstate the caliphate & financing it with drug deal and violent crime.

So we have a strong opposition here. And if I can easily give more details about why we reached that situation, I have no clue on how to solve it :( . What is sure, is that the conflict is not only in the streets. It's in the minds, & that's worse.

About our relative socialist country : people not born in France create twice more businesses than the ones born in France. That's good. What is not good is that those who do not do that, have very few opportunities to find real jobs. You see the lucky ones that achieve exiting the cities, & all the other ones, who are jealous & see them as traitors. I'm not sure whether it is a leftist or rightist morale, but here we are. There ARE opportunities, but not for everyone, by far. And the forgotten ones are angry - something easy to understand.

econ21

11-03-2005, 13:08

Dear Simon, you are dead wrong. Some of us are having quite a bit of fun lately. For instance Devastating Dave and me. Many others take themselves too darn serious to appreciate a joke or laugh at themselves. Too bad.

Yes, it may be fun for some people to throw anal references and scatalogical "humour" at each other (and non-participants). However, you did not seem too thrilled about it earlier in this thread. Moreover, it is not fun for some others who at least take the topics seriously, whatever their own self-regard.

As you observe, people have different levels of sensitivity to the form of communication but in the Backroom, it is not the lowest level that sets the minimum standards. The forum rules are that discussion be civil and courteous.

In a potentially explosive topic like this - dealing with race and real deaths - I think we have an extra responsibility not to be crass and to try to unpick the issues with care. And being crass will tend to derail others actually having a discussion. This post is just an illustration of that - I am arguing with you over form, when I want to be arguing with Menedil over substance.

Adrian II

11-03-2005, 13:37

Err, well, someone whose main interest is to burn cars is indeed a scum.The two youngsters whose deaths triggered the riots did not burn cars or throw fridges. It has not been established that they were guilty of anything whatsoever at the time, but prime minister De Villepin called them 'burglars' anyway. I am relieved to see that Sarkozy and other desktop warriors have been rebuked yesterday by President Chirac and told to stop escalating the situation with their stupid little soundbites.
I don't know where you got the idea that they were aims of 'police harassment, public humiliation etcetera'. Police usually do not bother to go to this cities, since they quickly turn as good targets for the local 'throw everything you can at them.Arabs in France have been the subject of harassment ever since they set foot on French soil, and of public humiliation ever since Le Pen and his National Front began to blame them for all of France's woes. You can deny French racism, police harassment and discrimination on the job market as much as you like, but it is not credible to anyone who has witnessed the treatment of Arabs by French police.

And in situations such as those in Clichy, there are always at least as many victims as there are perpetrators. Those cars that are burning are cars owned by mostly hard-working immigrants. Unemployment stands at 14% there, as opposed to the average of 9% for all of France. This means that 86% of the inhabitants go to work every day and literally do not have time for this crap.

As I said there are countless initiatives to improve the situation and bring about a change in the local subculture, but you refuse to address any of them until now, Meneldil. Rather, you paint all suburban immigrants as 'savages' who deserve to be shot. For those who are interested in alternative views the BBC has a decent article.

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399748.stm)

Adrian II

11-03-2005, 14:43

As you observe, people have different levels of sensitivity to the form of communication but in the Backroom, it is not the lowest level that sets the minimum standards.Personally, I think that semantic peeing contests are lowest level of debate in this forum. Even anal humour is superior to 'debates' about who has the best and the biggest Webster's. Posts that contain nothing else but anal humour are a tad boring, though. Hence my remark above.

Now, when Meneldil writes that migrants in gettos are all savages who deserve to be shot, I am not content to sit back, nod politely and doze off into virtual limbo. What nonsense.

LOL. Just imagine some of us asking Kaiser what is going on with Mexican immigration in the United States.
'They are all criminals, shoot them!'
'Why thank you Kaiser for your informative post. It is great to have such international participation in this forum so we can all understand each other better.' :bow:

I mean, come on. ~:rolleyes:

Redleg

11-03-2005, 14:46

I mean, come on. ~:rolleyes:

Indeed - ~:rolleyes: ~;p

Adrian II

11-03-2005, 14:47

Indeed - ~:rolleyes: ~;pRedleg, do you still love me? ~:grouphug:

Fragony

11-03-2005, 14:55

Arabs in France have been the subject of harassment ever since they set foot on French soil, and of public humiliation ever since Le Pen and his National Front began to blame them for all of France's woes. You can deny French racism, police harassment and discrimination on the job market as much as you like, but it is not credible to anyone who has witnessed the treatment of Arabs by French police.

Lol poor arabs. The problems we have with them in Holland is peanuts compared to France, ever been to Marseille? What an hellhole. This is a clearcut case of blaming the victim mia muca. It was a bit stupid to call them burglars when he should have known that the police doesn't even go in these area's anymore. So................why did they lie about being chased by the police? Well because it is effective as there are always people that see racism at every corner of the street. It are the same folks that keep telling minorities how badly they are discriminated and what complete bastards we whiteys really are.

Redleg

11-03-2005, 15:03

Redleg, do you still love me? ~:grouphug:

What is love - in the point that you do provide an interesting view on some things - well I like to read your opinions for the most part ~:cheers:

Then I like to tweak you just like you like to tweak me on occasion - so I would call that love in a way. A sick and sadistic way - but love nevertheless I guess. :hide: ~:cheers:

Hell the papercut I got from handling Card stock last night has effected my typing - going to have to go to the hospital and make sure I don't have blood posioning - was I being sarcastic or loving I really don't know...:eeeek:

BTW the papercut really exists and it hurts just a tad. ~:cheers:

yesdachi

11-03-2005, 15:17

Sounds to me like France needs to go to war,:charge:conscript all the troublesome youths and let them get their aggravation out on a real target. A pressure cooker needs to vent, vent it in the right direction. Plus war is good for the economy and patriotism (as long as it is not a long drug out mess – or should I just say “Bush style”~;)).

Adrian II

11-03-2005, 15:20

Hell the papercut I got from handling Card stock last night has effected my typingAre you sure it wasn't your Webster's?
:hide:

You'll be alright. But take care anyway. :bow:

Redleg

11-03-2005, 15:24

Are you sure it wasn't your Webster's?
:hide:

Yep it was nasty - and sharp tagboard the kind you find on the back of your checkbook if its made in the United States. (opps just gave away abit about what industry I now work in.) Cuts nice and deep like a knife - went all the way to the meat in my finger.

You'll be alright. But take care anyway. :bow:

If you keep typing in this size, I will need to go get my eyes checked and will be wearing coke bottle glasses before I am 45 years old ~D

Adrian II

11-03-2005, 15:27

If you keep typing in this size, I will need to go get my eyes checked and will be wearing coke bottle glasses before I am 45 years old ~D Try Tullamore Dew bottoms, they work fine for me! ~;)

Devastatin Dave

11-03-2005, 15:34

Alright Redleg and Adrian, get a room!!! (Simon, is it ok with you to make a homosexual undertoned joke?)...
I like what bmolssm said about "The high unemployment among immigrants as well as the concentration of them to certain areas creates a tense situation where the "socialist ideals" currently rather strong in France can't live up to what it has promised." If you are a legal citizen or immagrant to a country you should be afforded the same rights and services provided by the government that everyone esle gets, ESPECIALLY when you live in a country with the governmental ideals like France. Are they right to riot, no. But is it understandable, yes. What can be done? There are several approaches France and its citizens can take. They could expell anyone breaking their laws and send them back to their former countries. Would this work? Probably not. So what can be done? I don't have the answer and I doubt that anyone here could come up with a plan that would not cause great discomfort or a fight for anyone involved. This is a problem that, in my meek opinion, will only get worse with no clear victom or victor for either the French government or the immigrants.

Fragony

11-03-2005, 15:49

Not that hard to figure out what to do, 3 times out. If they have 2 pasports strip them of their french nationality and send them back to sandland. If they have french pasport, persona non grata for a period of 10 years(after they have sat out their punishment olol who am I kidding) in the city where they wreaked havoc. If you can't kick them out of the country kick them out of the city.

But could we please stop trying to understand them? If we didn't get the hint allready we are pretty damn stupid.

Devastatin Dave

11-03-2005, 15:53

Prodigal

11-03-2005, 15:53

Only made it as far as post 31, & excuse me for making a slight comparison rather than adressing the initial issue directly. It strikes me that the rioting in France bears a striking resemblance to the recent problems in Birmingham, in as much as a single "incident" triggered larger acts violence.

I doubt that the supposed triggers in themselves would be enough to cause rioting, & violence to a level where people are hospitalised & killed, unless in both instances there was some fairly long running problems that have been ignored. Surely people in "authority" can't be so blind as to think everything is a wonderland of milk & honey when people are willing to go on the rampage.

This raises, (in my mind at least), what the hell are these people being paid for? & by people I mean local politicians, local authorities, & the like.

I'm not a very law abiding soul, but going out for a riot isn't my idea of a good time, & I really can't believe there are hundreds of people hangin out in relativly small area's hoping for the next one to kick off so they can smash some stuff up.

So to sum up, hold resposible the useless leeches that let things get so bad in the first place without adressing, or at least warning that there was the potential for serious social unrest.

el_slapper

11-03-2005, 16:22

Dunno for B'Ham, but for France, it's mainly national politicians that are to blame. Locals did their best to calm down spirit, when all of a sudden Sarkozy launches anti-riot cops to the town. Of course, the troublemakers suddunly found a good way to express their anger, & once provoked like that, began to lead a lower form of urban guerilla. And yes they have fun fighting their "enemies".

That being said, expelling them is rather tough. You can expel newcomers, they'll go bck home. How do you expel people born in France, i.e. French people? Plus I agree with DD this wouldn't solve anything.

Fragony

11-03-2005, 16:27

Locals did their best to calm down spirit, when all of a sudden Sarkozy launches anti-riot cops to the town.

Well there is a riot. Then you use anti-riot cops, or are these just for the hooligans?

Geoffrey S

11-03-2005, 17:09

It doesn't help when things are starting to calm down a little.

Meneldil

11-03-2005, 17:15

AdrianII, frankly, if you have a realistic solution to this situation, then do share. Shooting them all is not a realistic solution either (merely a rant from a tired student), but that's the best idea I could find, and not a full of hatred rant based on some pseudo scientifical fact : there's nothing we can do for these people, there's no way to help them now, but if we don't do something, the situation will become even worse. That or totally brainwash them in some kind of stalinist ideological camp.
And where did I say they were all savages ? 90% of them are savages, but I think I made my opinion clear about the 10% that achieve to leave the suburbs, to found a job, create a small business.

Now you have a point of view that I can't agree with : for you, the problem lies in the racism shown by the (white) frenchmen towards the arab community. For me, the racism lies in the problem caused by the arab community.

I'm actually studying in a law university, and in this kind of place, you'll find a lot of people with radicaly different opinions : socialists, gaulists, communists, lepénists, ecologists, centrists, royalists, internationalists, etc. And they all (arabs included) agree on the fact there's a serious problem with the arab community.

And La Paillade is probably not La Seine St Denis or Marseilles, but I think I kinda understood how things go in this kind of place during the 6 months I worked there.

Edit :

It doesn't help when things are starting to calm down a little.

And then ? What's next ? We wait for the next riot ? We just shut the **** up, say 'Okay, we're going to handle that quietly. That's not really serious anyway, they are just poor guys. It's not their fault afterall. The police shouldn't have visited this area' and sit doing nothing, which is usually what our political leaders would do ? I seriously don't like Sarkozy, and I'm not a fan of de Villepin, but call a scum a scum.

Adrian II

11-03-2005, 17:36

Now you have a point of view that I can't agree with: for you, the problem lies in the racism shown by the (white) frenchmen towards the arab community. For me, the racism lies in the problem caused by the arab community.I think the influence of years of racist attitudes is important, and the fact that government officials now seem to echo those attitudes only compounds the situation. I do not understand why you call 90% of the sururban migrants savages when 85% of them have work and only a small group of youths, and youths only, are actually rioting and destroying the cars, schools and shops of other, older migrants. This is clearly a problem of the migrant community itself just as much as it is a problem of the entire French society.

As for solutions, I already gave you my best shot. I would suggest that you support positive movements and developments in those suburbs as much as you can. Education, womens rights, community-centred initiatives, 'close' policing instead of no policing at all. Oh, and don't fire tear gas into mosques, that isn't helpful at all. The BBC-site I linked to describes some of these initiatives. By all means, prevent the youth gangs and religious zealots from taking over community property, public space and social intercourse in those suburbs. That is the worst that can happen. People of good will should not be allowed to be intimidated by them (nor have their cars burned by them).

Fragony

11-03-2005, 17:44

.

As for solutions, I already gave you my best shot. I would suggest that you support positive movements and developments in those suburbs as much as you can. Education, womens rights, community-centred initiatives, 'close' policing instead of no policing at all.

Sounds like what we have been doing all the time. And it didn't work, maybe we should have tried that with the nazi's as well; I am sure that 6.000.000 jews would have survived if we had just given Hitler a little hug and a assesment course.

Meneldil

11-03-2005, 17:45

As for solutions, I already gave you my best shot. I would suggest that you support positive movements and developments in those suburbs as much as you can. Education, womens rights, community-centred initiatives, 'close' policing instead of no policing at all. Oh, and don't fire tear gas into mosques, that isn't helpful at all. The BBC-site I linked to describes some of these initiatives. By all means, prevent the youth gangs and religious zealots from taking over community property, public space and social intercourse in those suburbs. That is the worst that can happen. People of good will should not be allowed to be intimidated by them (nor have their cars burned by them).

Agreed. I never said we shouldn't do that, and I never said the solution would be to shot at each single migrant who show up at our borders.
My main point is that the guys who are actually rioting (and there's not only young people FYI) can't be helped, and doesn't deserve to be. They are some fascist scums who don't care at all about the society and they'll likely think that way until their death. I really don't see how we could change their mind. They have been brainwashed by years of islamic or ethnocentrist propaganda, by crappy anti-whites/cops/france rap, and nothing could heal that.

Geoffrey S

11-03-2005, 17:52

And then ? What's next ? We wait for the next riot ? We just shut the **** up, say 'Okay, we're going to handle that quietly. That's not really serious anyway, they are just poor guys. It's not their fault afterall. The police shouldn't have visited this area' and sit doing nothing, which is usually what our political leaders would do ? I seriously don't like Sarkozy, and I'm not a fan of de Villepin, but call a scum a scum.
There were issues with the way France has dealt with immigrants and their descendants; if your government would at least recognise such failings it would be a step in the right direction. Moving in riot troops when things are calming down, even a little, is only going to make things flare up all the more next time. If all the government offers is threat of force or force itself absolutely nothing is achieved, only alienation.

Much as it would displease the French people what is needed is a concerted initiative to improve the standard of living for such people, particularly with regards to education. The problem was ignored for far too long, was allowed to grow, and is the responsibility of the French government; cracking down on those involved with violence is simply a continuation of such ignorance, and does absolutely nothing to solve the problem.

A policy of improving conditions does need to be combined with proper law enforcement, effectively tackling those spreading hatred and discord. Simply offering compromises doesn't help, but neither does the threat of violence alone; a combination of the two is most important, applied at points in society where either is necessary.

Fragony

11-03-2005, 19:23

Seems like they are having some fun in Denmark as well...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1513137/posts?page=12

I wonder what all those racist french cops are doing in Vikingland?

Meneldil

11-03-2005, 20:15

This site looks like some extreme right stuff.

Seamus Fermanagh

11-03-2005, 22:00

Try Tullamore Dew bottoms, they work fine for me! ~;)

Kudos! Brilliant reference! World's best whiskey. Adrian, you just won a "pass" from me on your next outrageous viewpoint. The flavor...the smoothness...~:cheers: ~:thumb: :horn:

Slyspy

11-03-2005, 22:23

Tribesman

11-03-2005, 23:32

This site looks like some extreme right stuff
Not at all , what ever gave you that idea ?

Would it possibly be this.....
and to champion causes which further conservatism in America. And we always have fun doing it. Hoo-yah!

It is a reliable unbiased account ~D ~D ~D
Still at least it isn't Skrewdiver eh ~;)

Leet Eriksson

11-04-2005, 01:22

I take it the arab community has a high unemployment rate in france?

If the immigrants who are cuasing the problem are illegal ship them back to their country of origin, if not offer them a job, if they refuse ship them back. It works in the UAE.

Sometimes you have to screw democracy over to solve some problems.

Just my opinion.

AntiochusIII

11-04-2005, 01:57

If the immigrants who are cuasing the problem are illegal ship them back to their country of origin, if not offer them a job, if they refuse ship them back. It works in the UAE.Unfortunately, it seems a large part of the Arab community in question is a second-or-even-third generation immigrants, i.e. citizens of France, born in the nation.

So, where to?

The problems of unintergrated "foreign" culture that is plaguing Europe in general seems almost unresolvable from my limited vision, and, even more unfortunately, most blames must be placed on bloody politicians of an earlier generation (the world without politicians is utopia, it seems...) who did not try to solve the problem while it still was new and mostly easy to solve.

Edit: after seeing Papewaio's post below, I must admit I really admire his wisdom now. :bow: Yet, the problem is, many would not cooperate. It would take an effort from the police, the public, and the government to successfully pass the hardest step, the first step: to gain the troubled ones' support. An effort that, it seems, need a figure of leadership so rare now in the world. I mean, how many politicians have you seen lately that actually gives the air of true charisma?

Papewaio

11-04-2005, 02:18

They are unemployed?

There living environment is run down?

Make them work helping to clean up their environment. In return they get to keep social welfare. Also give them extra options to gain employment via training them in useful skills. Have them apply those skills in their local enviroment so that they can gain real experience and be an asset to their community.

Remove the idle hands, and put them to good use. Welfare is not a lifestyle choice it is a short term solution. You don't use a hospital as a hotel. Social welfare is a two way street, and it should be for the benefit of society.

Kaiser of Arabia

11-04-2005, 02:43

Leet Eriksson

11-04-2005, 02:49

I wouldn't call banning headscarves pro-middle east.

Seamus Fermanagh

11-04-2005, 03:35

Notice how riots in europe's most anti-American pro-middle eastern nation (other than Turkey ~D) gets riots and America doesn't? Ironic, is it not?

Give a man an inch and he'll want to burn down your capital.

Kaiser:

Far be it from me to defend France, but America has had riots among the chronically under/un-employed. I don't know how frequent a problem it is for France, though we are fortunate here that such riots happen only once every 15-20 years.

On the other hand, riots in the USA were even rarer prior to the development of the "social safety net." Hmmm...

AntiochusIII

11-04-2005, 03:36

On the other hand, riots in the USA were even rarer prior to the development of the "social safety net." Hmmm...What do you mean by that?

Kaiser of Arabia

11-04-2005, 03:38

I wouldn't call banning headscarves pro-middle east.
Are they in the middle east, liberating nations, or just threatening the liberator of nations?

Enough said.

And I have a question. WHO GAVE THIS NATION NUKES? (France that is). I MEAN....WHO?

Devastatin Dave

11-04-2005, 03:55

What do you mean by that?
That socialism, like that in France, can cause more problems than what its worth. We here in the states are seeing the effects of "safety nets" with crim-infested cities, cities that are unlivable for working people as they are only a distribution center for governmental services. When you promise a chicken in every bowl then you need to ensure everyone gets a chicken. But obviously if those folks eating chicken notice that someone else is eating chicken with some extra trimmings, they get jealous, their sense of entitlemant grows, then they riot because they were not GIVEN what someone else has. Again, I can see where these people might have a gripe, but i don't think the rioting solves anything but just proves the point of people who are prejudiced towards immagrants. They can point and say, "See, i told you those people were no good". A vicious cycle for sure...

Redleg

11-04-2005, 04:00

That socialism, like that in France, can cause more problems than what its worth. We here in the states are seeing the effects of "safety nets" with crim-infested cities, cities that are unlivable for working people as they are only a distribution center for governmental services. When you promise a chicken in every bowl then you need to ensure everyone gets a chicken. But obviously if those folks eating chicken notice that someone else is eating chicken with some extra trimmings, they get jealous, their sense of entitlemant grows, then they riot because they were not GIVEN what someone else has. Again, I can see where these people might have a gripe, but i don't think the rioting solves anything but just proves the point of people who are prejudiced towards immagrants. They can point and say, "See, i told you those people were no good". A vicious cycle for sure...

Well said :bow:

Adrian II

11-04-2005, 17:03

That socialism, like that in France, can cause more problems than what its worth.These riots have nothing to do with France being pro-Arab, anti-American or socialist. France is not a socialist country, the president and government are right-wing and the suburban problems are by no means the result of socialism either. And in order to understand that there is no necessary connection at all, just remember that Britain has had similar race riots in the wake of decades of Thatcherism, whilst the United States has had its own race riots too.

It seems that today French politicians are finally recognising that their whole approach to the suburban problems has been wrong. The head of the Inner City Security Forum, MP Michel Marcus, has said this siatuation is 'a crisis in the relationship between police and the local population rather than an expression of suburban malaise. The police are the only public service that is not adapted to these sensitive areas. There is a problem with methods of intervention, of patrolling by car only, of abusive identity checks.'

The president of the Policeman's Union added his voice to statements that 'drive-by policing' has done a lot of damage and that 'close policing' is necessary to re-establish confidence among the inhabitants.

For those who read Civilised: Le Monde (http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3226,36-706524@51-704172,0.html)

Kralizec

11-04-2005, 17:15

Are they in the middle east, liberating nations, or just threatening the liberator of nations?

Enough said.

And I have a question. WHO GAVE THIS NATION NUKES? (France that is). I MEAN....WHO?

The French government supported Saddam because it suited their purposes- not because they like Arabs (or Saddam, for that matter)

About who gave France nukes...that would be France. They developed their own under De Gaulle in the 60'ties if memory serves.

LeftEyeNine

11-04-2005, 17:22

..May be just too late for the matter, probably already said but I just heard that it's been 8 days since riots started and some building was burnt down today as well..

May someone summarize the incident please - if you do not take me so lazy to read whole rich thread ~:) ?

Kralizec

11-04-2005, 17:24

That socialism, like that in France, ...

I know "socialism" has in daily speech has become synonomous to just about everything leftists, but that's a big error. A socialist country by definition has no private companies and the government is in complete control over all infrastructure. Neither goes for France.
At most, France has an overgrown social welfare net.

Adrian II

11-04-2005, 17:35

At most, France has an overgrown social welfare net.Even so, it was applied according to non-socialist principles. For instance non-Arabs were given precedence in social housing; hence the tendency of the least adapted of them to be concentrated in gettos. Anybody read about the huge fires in derelict migrant homes in Paris lately?

master of the puppets

11-04-2005, 17:43

Even so, it was applied according to non-socialist principles. For instance non-Arabs were given precedence in social housing; hence the tendency of the least adapted of them to be concentrated in gettos. Anybody read about the huge fires in derelict migrant homes in Paris lately?

yup, just like the rest of tyhe world they see there own full blooded kind asd superior than those of another descent, plus if there system were as correct as i was intended to be it would be almost communist.

Meneldil

11-04-2005, 19:15

Well, proximity police would hurt of course, but if they create something like that now, they'll quickly turn into targets for the 16 year old gangster wannabes.
And we seriously lack policemen.

Now AdrianII, do you really think there's a way to turn the rioters into decent, estimable citizens ? I'm not being sarcastic here, but I really would like to hear your opinion on that.

Radier

11-04-2005, 19:26

Riots have spread too other places in France now... Dijon, Marsielle... I wonder when it will stop. ~:handball:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/04/france.riots/index.html

Meneldil

11-04-2005, 19:39

Yeah, just saw that on TV. Some people (Sarkozy included) are now saying the riots have been planned for a long time. Sounds like crap to me. They just found a reason to have fun.

Husar

11-04-2005, 19:44

yesdachi

11-04-2005, 19:58

What’s really happening in France is that they are being invaded… again, this time by Arab youths. Lets hope they hold out longer than two weeks this time.
:hide:

Meneldil

11-04-2005, 20:15

I agree with faisal, if they make too many problems, just throw them out. If you don´t have enought policemen, get the military, european soldiers are underoccupied anyway IMO and can always use some training...

Throw them out where ? They are french. We could always send them on a work camp in La Réunion or in french Guyanne.

It seems that journalists from many countries are now covering these events.

Taffy_is_a_Taff

11-04-2005, 20:24

what happened to all the Algerian French? Were they forced into a position that required them to leave Algeria? If so, did they mostly relocate to France?

I presume the French Algerians would go to Algeria if they were required to vacate France.

Louis VI the Fat

11-04-2005, 20:33

Well, were to begin...

To start with the two of the main protagonists in this thread, I agree with both A2 and Meneldil. Meneldil is right, the banlieues are not part of France. Neither mentally or socially. Not in the hearts and minds of those either within or outside of them. It is a shadowy underworld that is somehow physically attached to France. It is a tale of two cities.

It is not even about race or Islam or socio-economic differences anymore. It is far worse. We have become a caste society. ~:mecry: ~:mecry:

Adrian is right too in his criticism of French policy. We have done nothing to prevent an underclass of untoucheables from forming.

But then, there is a what came first, the chicken or the egg, aspect to it. Did perennial police harrassment, poor economical prospects and blatant indifference come first? Or the mockery of all and any Republican values, the hatred of 'white effeminate pigs', the immigration is only physical and not in the minds? If you don't leave Algiers behind when you move to Paris, then you'll end up living in an Algiers in Paris.

I don't see a way to end it. Sure, the riots will stop at some point. But any long term solution? Maybe drastic problems require drastic solutions. Demolish each banlieu, forcibly spread it's populations over the rest of France, finally accept that twenty percent of her population is not from France, and demand an unconditional acceptance of French republical values by those residing within her borders.

Kaiser of Arabia

11-04-2005, 21:33

The French government supported Saddam because it suited their purposes- not because they like Arabs (or Saddam, for that matter)

About who gave France nukes...that would be France. They developed their own under De Gaulle in the 60'ties if memory serves.
Of course they supported Saddam. They even paradropped trainers to him D-Day -1. They taught the Iraqis the valuable art of surrender ~:cheers:

And the Nuke thing is just hilarious. French Nukes, I cannot picture that.

Husar

11-04-2005, 22:38

Throw them out where ? They are french. We could always send them on a work camp in La Réunion or in french Guyanne.

It seems that journalists from many countries are now covering these events.
Well, you already found two possibilities.~D
If they didn´t manage to integrate after 3 generations you could also send them back to where the 1st generation came from.
If a bacillus comes into my body and won´t "integrate"(~;) ) but make trouble, my body will do everything to get rid of that bacillus, even if that bacillus has already reproduced itself, it´s just a natural reaction to strangers......

Btw, sometimes I´d like to throw out some locals as well, so nationality shouldn´t be the problem when it comes to throwing people out of a country.~;)

Adrian II

11-04-2005, 22:45

Now AdrianII, do you really think there's a way to turn the rioters into decent, estimable citizens ? I'm not being sarcastic here, but I really would like to hear your opinion on that.I didn't suggest that I knew some sort of quick fix, did I? If I did, I apologise for being an idiot.

I am thinking of the closest parallel to this situation in my own life. We had a terrorist episode in The Netherlands with our Moluccan minority during the 1970's: train-jackings, entire schools and embassies taken hostage, firebomb attacks, etcetera. The incidents themselves were taken care of by a good combination of police work and paramilitary units. But the root problem was tackled (and I mean really solved, with no remnants of radicalism left) through a consistent dialogue between Dutch government officials and Moluccan community leaders. It took a lot of time and money, there was a lot of mutual irritation, but in the end reason prevailed on both sides. The most important factor was that the community leaders gained new respect within their community because they were talking and negociating one-on-one with the government and every deal they made brought immediate results. In return, they managed to control to unruly Moluccan youths. Nowadays, the Moluccan 'problem' in The Netherlands is non-existent.

Based on my limited knowledge, the first thing that seems absolutely necessary is to isolate the trouble-makers and separate them from the decent inhabitants. If the French authorities have no one to talk to in these neighbourhoods, the situation is even worse that I thought. But I suppose there must be some, only in the present situation they will be less willing to stick their heads out and be counted. Hey, who wants to talk to a closet fascist like Sarkozy? Why hasn't the clown been fired yet?

Adrian II

11-04-2005, 23:16

(..) and demand an unconditional acceptance of French republican values by those residing within her borders.Crux of the matter! After all, these values are not 'French' but universal. Migrants should make up their minds whether they want to live in (and contribute to) a modern, secular republic based on equality before the law or not. But it may take a while before ethnic or tribalist migrant communities dissolve into modern family units.

From a bird's eye view, this situation is nothing new in the history of civilisation. American posters might take that to heart. The United States experienced this problem earlier on because of the mass immigration in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century resulting in gettos for Italians, Irish, Polish, Germans, Greeks, Jews, you name it. The country has seen anti-immigrant riots, anti-Catholic riots, anti-Chinese, anti-Jewish, anti-Italian riots, massacres of black Americans, riots by black Americans (e.g. the Watts Riots), the list goes on. This is what happens to real countries, as opposed to my own midget nation that is too tight-knit for such mass confrontations.

bmolsson

11-05-2005, 00:37

I know "socialism" has in daily speech has become synonomous to just about everything leftists, but that's a big error. A socialist country by definition has no private companies and the government is in complete control over all infrastructure. Neither goes for France.
At most, France has an overgrown social welfare net.

It's not a question of a socialist state or not. It's the mentality and the political direction even among right wingers. The private companies are hampered by over powered unions, creating a too high cost structure, a western European phenomena indeed. Further more, if you receive immigrants with the promise of a future and then don't deliver, it will create a conflict. This regardless if it's a right or left government. There are no reason what so ever to move this discussion in to a left or right discussion. The problem faced in France is creeping on all western European nations, with few excemptions. It's a serious problem for all parties and especially the immigrants themselves......

Adrian II

11-05-2005, 01:18

A socialist country by definition has no private companies and the government is in complete control over all infrastructure.Not quite. In the course of the 20th century Socialism has evolved to the point where it recognizes the pivotal role of private enterprise in society. Trade unions, too, have discarded all notions of collective control over the means of production. Private property is not to be infringed upon because it is a main pillar of personal and political freedom.

Of all the Socialist ideals of the past two hundred years, there are a few that have stood the test of time. They amount to a set of basic principles concerning social justice and political democracy. With regard to the latter, this includes the principle that markets should serve society instead of the other way around. Nationalisation of all industries is not on the agenda. A country like France traditionally has enough state control over the economy to be able to implement socialist principles without changing any of its basic laws and regulations. Only they never did.
It's not a question of a socialist state or not.Quite. Race riots and social upheavils of this kind have taken place in many countries irrespective of the governments in power. Most western nations have a post-war record of fighting social problems by establishing ever new bureaucracies, and by throwing money at these bureacracies in the hope that some of it will trickle down to the troublemakers and keep them quiet, or at least out of sight. This is essentially what happened in my country. Only the wrong bureaucracies were fostered in the process.

In the early 1970's we had a Socialist-Christian Democrat coalition that instituted a minority policy based on social and economic criteria. Migrants were given subsidies and extra's in accordance to their (measured) social and economic handicaps. The main aim of this policy was that migrants should merge into Dutch society as soon as possible or return to their country of origin with a financial hand-shake. In popular parlance this hand-shake was know as the 'f***-off premium'.

Then, in the 1980's, we had three subsequent right-wing governments led by Christian Democrat Ruud Lubbers (of subsequent UN sexual harassment fame) who imposed his own minority policy. According to Lubers & Co., ethnic and religious minorities should to stick together, uphold their separate 'identity', and retain their original culture and religion as much as possible. The idea behind that was it would enable them to develop their own particular strenghths within Dutch society. This policy was dubbed 'Emancipation within one's own circle'.

As a consequence, religious and ethnic organisations in The Netherlands were heavily subsidised. The 1980's and 1990's saw a flurry of new islamic religious organisations, movements and schools; and these were accepted as legitimate negociating partners by the government. The net result is that we now have a huge undergrowth of religiously inspired organisations that hamper the effective, day-to-day integration of muslims into Dutch society. Religion has become much more of an issue than it used to be. If this trend is allowed to continue, we will have our own riots in ten or twenty-five years time.

So no, sorry, this lack of integration was not caused by Socialists but by Christian Demcorats who offered their own (out-dated) horizontal networks and civic organisations as a model to migrants.

Kanamori

11-05-2005, 01:25

BLANC MESNIL, France (AP) - Bands of youths roaming Parisian suburbs burned more than 500 vehicles and hurled stones at police Friday, as the worst rioting in a decade entered its second week and spread elsewhere in France. The U.S. warned Americans against taking trains to the airport via strife-torn areas.

A savage assault on a bus passenger highlighted the dangers of travel in the impoverished outlying neighborhoods, where authorities were struggling to regain control.

Attackers doused the woman, in her 50s and on crutches, with an inflammable liquid and set her afire as she tried to get off a bus in the suburb of Sevran Wednesday, judicial officials said. The bus had been forced to stop because of burning objects in its path. She was rescued by the driver and hospitalized with severe burns.

Justice Minister Pascal Clement deplored the incident, saying it caused him ``great emotion.''

With the unrest growing beyond the French capital, gangs burned five cars in the eastern city of Dijon and 11 in the southern city of Marseille.

Violence continued into the evening for the ninth night in a row with troublemakers firing bullets into a vandalized bus and setting a warehouse ablaze in the Paris area. In Meaux, east of Paris, police said youths prevented firefighters from evacuating a sick person from an apartment building, pelting them with stones and torching the awaiting ambulance.

Personally, if martial law isn't declared there, I think it ought to be. Obviously, the police are not in control there, and the rights of law-abiding citizens come first. But that is just an outsiders perspective.

Adrian II

11-05-2005, 03:23

Obviously, the police are not in control there, and the rights of law-abiding citizens come first. But that is just an outsiders perspective.The rest of that article is interesting as well. It shows the silent majority in these suburbs is not entirely silent.
The unrest erupted with youths angered over the deaths of Bouna Traore, 15, and Zyed Benna, 17, who were electrocuted when they hid in a power substation in the suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois. Traore's brother, Siyakah Traore, called for protesters to "calm down and stop ransacking everything. This is not how we are going to have our voices heard," he told RTL radio, adding his voice to neighborhood groups working to stop the violence.

Dozens of residents and community leaders were stepping in to defuse tensions, with some walking between rioters and police to urge youths to back down. Abderrhamane Bouhout, head of the Bilal mosque in Clichy-sous-Bois, said he had enlisted 50 youths to try stop the violence. "We've had positive results," he said.

Kanamori

11-05-2005, 03:25

Yet, the cars and people burn. The police are not in control.

Adrian II

11-05-2005, 03:37

Yet, the cars and people burn. The police are not in control.They haven't been for decades, that is one of the root causes. Much is being made of unemployment in these neighbourhoods, but the numbers of unemployed are relatively low (15% mostly). Immigrant housing in France is crap, but that is hardly the reason why youths would set cars on fire.

I really think Marcus (whom I quoted above) hit the nail on the head when he said this is basically a breakdown of trust between police and the communities in question. People are (and have been for some time) left to their own devices to maintain a semblance of civilised public life. You really think martial law is the answer? More riot police, marching in battle order, firing tear gas into mosques and making random arrests, could hardly restore order. It might be a good idea if government officials would talk directly to community leaders, be seen to talk to them, and be seen making deals with them that go into immediate effect so as to give these leaders more influence and control over the situation. Without such cooperation, there is no end to these riots in sight. And with it, who knows this could be the beginning of a beautiful new policy.
~:rolleyes:

bmolsson

11-05-2005, 04:30

So no, sorry, this lack of integration was not caused by Socialists but by Christian Demcorats who offered their own (out-dated) horizontal networks and civic organisations as a model to migrants.

As I said, the French society are not delivering what it has promised. As a muslim, I of course recognize both socialists and Christian Democrats as infidels...... ~:grouphug:

Meneldil

11-05-2005, 07:37

As I said, the French society are not delivering what it has promised. As a muslim, I of course recognize both socialists and Christian Democrats as infidels...... ~:grouphug:

Well, that's true. But I think it would be time for my country to admit it can not offer a new home to poors from all around the world.

Soulforged

11-05-2005, 23:34

I don't see a way to end it. Sure, the riots will stop at some point. But any long term solution? Maybe drastic problems require drastic solutions. Demolish each banlieu, forcibly spread it's populations over the rest of France, finally accept that twenty percent of her population is not from France, and demand an unconditional acceptance of French republical values by those residing within her borders.Welcome to Argentina.

scooter_the_shooter

11-06-2005, 00:01

Give them a chance to go back to their homes. If they refuse send the national gaurd in (if you guys have one).

bmolsson

11-06-2005, 06:14

I think it would be time for my country to admit it can not offer a new home to poors from all around the world.

Very difficult in a democracy where political power is gained by making unrealistic promises during the elections. I can see that the political crisis in France might be far more serious than we can imagine at the moment....

Meneldil

11-06-2005, 09:19

Well, I'm not sure anyone promised to rescue poors from the whole world.
It's rather some historical ideology, you know, the Revolution, the Republic, the Human Rights and all that stuffs ~;)

Radier

11-06-2005, 10:09

Swedish news report that the riots have spread to the central parts of Paris, and cars are burning right in front of tourist hotels. The "leaders" of the riots use cellphones an internetsites to map the movements of the police. What started like a riot of uncontrolled anger has now turned into a orginazed riot with smaller and quicker gangs.

Give them one chance to go home, then send in the army, like Ceasar said. :knight:

Fragony

11-06-2005, 13:20

Meneldil

11-06-2005, 13:24

How nice, a disabled women was set on fire. Some nutjob poured some gassoline on her and kindly offered her a light. Frenchie's too soft, police officers are being shot at, why isn't the army deployed? It is obvious that France is under attack ~:rolleyes:

Well, right now, I wouldn't mind if our government send some Leclercs tanks there. It clearly looks like a civil war, but no one will have the guts to do such a thing.

Fragony

11-06-2005, 13:39

Well, right now, I wouldn't mind if our government send some Leclercs tanks there. It clearly looks like a civil war, but no one will have the guts to do such a thing.

Clear the streets yourselves. Why aren't the hooligans teaming up, that is what they did here when van Gogh was murdered. Didn't come to a fight but nice to have a backup when government is refusing to do their job. I am pretty sure that this would never happen here without some serious backlash, I don't get you guys.

Husar

11-06-2005, 14:01

Clear the streets yourselves. Why aren't the hooligans teaming up, that is what they did here when van Gogh was murdered. Didn't come to a fight but nice to have a backup when government is refusing to do their job. I am pretty sure that this would never happen here without some serious backlash, I don't get you guys.
I agree, that´s the only use I see for our Neo-Nazis.~:rolleyes:
All of France is burning and the politicians do what they always do...talk, talk, talk...

Meneldil

11-06-2005, 14:20

I'm not a hooligan.
Anyway, Hooligans and Neo Nazis are almost forbidden in France. I never ever met a skinhead in my whole life.

Anyway, I seriously think my country is screwed up, and I decided not to bother anymore about all the crap happening here.

Radier

11-06-2005, 14:48

I should have voted on Jean-Marie Le Pen. You obviously need some changes there... ~:handball:

Louis VI the Fat

11-06-2005, 16:55

Well, I'm not sure anyone promised to rescue poors from the whole world.
It's rather some historical ideology, you know, the Revolution, the Republic, the Human Rights and all that stuffs ~;)Well that racaille torched four cars on our Place de la République last night.

That's their gratitude for our universal offer of liberty and human rights.

The choice is and has always been up to them. They can choose between the Republic, and accept our offer of freedom and prosperity. Or they can choose to continue their petty lives of war, poverty and the desecration of the value of human life.

I've had quite enough of their attitude. Go and live in Algeria or Senegal if that's the kind of society you prefer.

Meneldil

11-06-2005, 17:26

Well, it looks like you're even more radical than me on this issue.

Quite frankly, I don't think France ever delivered what it promised to migrants.
But then I don't think France even delivered what it has promised to French.

Ldvs

11-06-2005, 17:54

Anyway, I seriously think my country is screwed up, and I decided not to bother anymore about all the crap happening here.
/me pats Meneldil on the shoulder ~;)

I've had quite enough of their attitude. Go and live in Algeria or Senegal if that's the kind of society you prefer.
I think the responsibilities are shared. If France, at the time, hadn't showed such ingratitude towards the Africans who fought along with us in 1914-18 and 39-45 and had adopted a softer stance on the colonial issue we would very likely never have faced the Algeria war and the consequent wave of immigration that ensued. These people, who fought for us, were housed and worked (hard) in terrible conditions. Yet they didn't complain much. These ones have the right to protest.

Now, if you take this bunch of lazy, decadent, uncivil and violent thugs (not only Arabs), then I agree with you. They are free to leave and I certainly wouldn't regret them. What saddens me though, is that the Arab people who truly are willing to work are discredited because of those scum.

Husar

11-06-2005, 17:55

I think one of the main reasons slums aren´t nice is people being sluttish(yeah, looked that one up if it sounds strange~;) ).
If you´re poor that´s not really an excuse for not washing yourself, your clothes and throwing garbage onto the street. Same goes for pissing against walls and drinking so much that you have to puke onto the sidewalk. This are in my oppinion typical things that make slums a place noone wants to be, and it is one of the things that isn´t nice in my new neighborhood(pity I didn´t have more time to search for a place to live). And I don´t care where people come from, if they don´t want to wash themselves, I have a lower opinion about them, if these people are mostly immigrants(and from what I have seen, many of them are) I still wouldn´t call that racism.

Solution: If some people just tried to spend their money on useful things and not destroy their neighborhood by stupid actions, they would have a much better life in our society, even if they´re unemployed.

And a policeman is much less inclined to discriminate people if they keep their village clean and safe.

Ldvs

11-06-2005, 18:24

I think one of the main reasons slums aren´t nice is people being sluttish(yeah, looked that one up if it sounds strange~;) ).
I couldn't agree more. For having observed thugs while I was at school, I seriously doubt they're even able to understand that destroying their own quarters is worsening their reputation, though.

Soulforged

11-06-2005, 18:47

The choice is and has always been up to them. They can choose between the Republic, and accept our offer of freedom and prosperity. Or they can choose to continue their petty lives of war, poverty and the desecration of the value of human life.
I've had quite enough of their attitude. Go and live in Algeria or Senegal if that's the kind of society you prefer.Don't you think that you're acting a little gringo here. Sure they're causing disasters, but are they treated with the same respect of all other frenchs?

Meneldil

11-06-2005, 18:51

SoulForged, a lot of 'white French' live in these cities, and they don't get a better treatment. Yet 90% of the people rioting are blacks or arabs

Kanamori

11-06-2005, 18:52

Fragony

11-06-2005, 18:53

Sure they're causing disasters, but are they treated with the same respect of all other frenchs?

Causing disasters is a bit way to gain respect. This isn't new, Paris has basicly been a warzone for years. They don't deserve any respect, as they are just a bunch of criminals. They don't behave like the other french, too many people are mixing up cause and effect. There is absolutely no more reason for these riots occuring then this trash being the hyena's of mankind.

Adrian II

11-06-2005, 19:13

Causing disasters is a bit way to gain respect. This isn't new, Paris has basicly been a warzone for years. They don't deserve any respect, as they are just a bunch of criminals. They don't behave like the other french, too many people are mixing up cause and effect. There is absolutely no more reason for these riots occuring then this trash being the hyena's of mankind.This thread is gradually filling up with fascist crap that does not even merit consideration. Count me out from here on.~:rolleyes:

Soulforged

11-06-2005, 19:18

Being treated poorly may give them an incentive to act violently, but it sure doesn't give them rational or legal bounds to act violently. They are clearly in the wrong, and the violence is caused by them only. We have no legal basis at all when people are no longer held accountable for their actions.I bet that you're a lawyer no? Well I'll try to respond as a sogiologist: Sure there's no basis for being violent. But if all your rights are denied, and they're treated poorly, and you don't have rational institucionalized methods to get your demands and make them effective, there's only one thing that can work, violence. I dislike violence, but it's one of the finest methods to achieve goals in this world. It's a shame that the spirit of the Revolution is now lost in France. Law is there to be an instrument for society and respond to them, not to always put a limit, and keep them on their sits, watching their rights being smashed. I'll tell you what, if I wes them I'll surely do the same.
Coming from a city were this happens day after day, and understanding that nobody deserves poor treatment, and that the human being must be respected as an individual before the society itself, then I think I can talk about this. Here we learned to tolerate this kind of groups, why, because they've reasonable requests, they demand what they deserve, at least in it's great majority. Surely a first world country will learn to deal with this with reason and understandment, before using arms.

This thread is gradually filling up with fascist crap that does not even merit consideration. Count me out from here on.~:rolleyes:
Tell me where you're and I go with you...:eeeek:

Sjakihata

11-06-2005, 19:19

Tell me where you're and I go with you...:eeeek:

Wait for me! And we can all take a boat to Utopia.

Fragony

11-06-2005, 19:22

This thread is gradually filling up with fascist crap that does not even merit consideration. Count me out from here on.~:rolleyes:

Au revoir. Look at the bright side, won't be long untill we have a thread of our own wouldn't that be the bomb. Ca commence mia muca.

InsaneApache

11-06-2005, 19:29

look ....just shoot the bastards.

Kanamori

11-06-2005, 19:37

Riots continue unabated
By Elisabeth Pineau in Paris
07-11-2005
From: Reuters

GANGS of youths torched 1300 vehicles in the 10th consecutive night of violence in Paris's poor suburbs and major French towns, despite the deployment of thousands of extra police.
Cars were burned out in the historic centre of Paris for the first time yesterday. In the normally quiet Normandy town of Evreux, a shopping mall, 50 vehicles, a post office and two schools went up in flames.

Authorities have so far found no way beyond appeals and more police to address a problem with complex social, economic and racial causes.

Evreux mayor Jean-Louis Debre, a confidant of President Jacques Chirac and speaker of the lower house of parliament, said:

"To those responsible for the violence, I want to say: Be serious ... If you want to live in a fairer, more fraternal society, this is not how to go about it."

The deaths 10 days ago of two youths apparently fleeing police ignited pent up frustrations among young men, many of them Muslims of North and black African origin, at racism, unemployment, their marginal place in French society and their treatment by the police.

"Many youths have never seen their parents work and couldn't hold down a job if they got one," said Claude Chevallier, manager of a burned-out carpet depot in the rundown Paris suburb of Aulnay-sous-Bois.

But authorities now say the rolling nightly riots are being organised via the Internet and mobile phones, and have pointed the finger at drug traffickers and Islamist militants.

Seven police helicopters buzzed over the Paris region through the night, filming disturbances and directing mobile squads to incidents. Police made 349 arrests.

The number of incidents in the Paris region was similar to the night before, but in the provinces it was up sharply.

The violence has tarnished France's image overseas, forcing Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin to cancel a trip to Canada, while Russia and the United States have warned their citizens to avoid Paris's troubled suburbs.

Mr Villepin has combined a call for an end to the riots with dialogue with community leaders, youngsters and local officials, and has promised an action plan for 750 tough neighbourhoods.

"I'll make proposals as early as this week," the weekly Journal du Dimanche quoted him as saying.

But it remained unclear what could stop the violence, though some Opposition parties have suggested a symbolic measure - the resignation of Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy.

Accused of stoking passions by calling troublemakers "scum", Mr Sarkozy has ignored calls to quit. A survey indicated his public image was holding up, even if many disapproved of his strong language.

Mr Villepin also has ambitions to be the right wing's presidential candidate in 2007 and has tried to position himself as a much more consensual figure than Mr Sarkozy; the effect on the crisis on his ratings is still unclear.

With no end in sight to the nights of wailing sirens, acrid smoke, stone-throwing and destruction, residents from all ethnic backgrounds are tiring of the unrest.

"My kids can't sleep at night," said a mother named Samia in Aulnay-sous-Bois. "They hear explosions, they see fires and they think they're in a war. When the slightest thing happens, they get anxious and say 'Mama, what's going on?'"

http://www.news.com.au/story/print/0,10119,17162023,00.html

Just hope it doesn't get as violent as the '92 LA riots... so far the number of people beaten to death by rioters isn't as high.

Ldvs

11-06-2005, 21:33

This thread is gradually filling up with fascist crap that does not even merit consideration.
I'd be curious to know whether you live in a rich quarter or nearby a poor surburb. You have to see things for yourself before making utopian points.

But if all your rights are denied, and they're treated poorly, and you don't have rational institucionalized methods to get your demands and make them effective, there's only one thing that can work, violence.
Pray, tell me what rights they're being denied? The right to employment? The ones who want to work, to be socially integrated are being penalised because of those thugs who give an infamous reputation to specific areas and cultures. Now, should we force employers to recruit people from certain areas, cultures and religions? That would be a breach of freedom and basic rights, since it would be akin to institutionalising discrimination.
Most of the rioters, if not all, are lazy and unwilling to work at school even when given proper opportunities. Better not take that example of 40 people in a classroom because I know from personal experience that being only 25 doesn't make them more hardworking.

Treated poorly? Lack of respect? This certainly is true for their elders, those who have fled Algeria after the war. They have been humiliated and exploited, but did they think it granted them the right to riot? No, while it would have been perfectly understandable if they did. The ones in the streets are regularly ambushing firemen and doctors, they're burning cars and smashing bus stops, removing road signs, terrorising their neighbours, ruining their neighbourhoods and stealing just for the fun of it. Even their "thuggish accent" is repulsive (please don't tell me it's a normal way of talking, unless you're having serious elocution problems). Do you sincerely think that those who demand respect so fiercely act appropriately?

Louis VI the Fat

11-06-2005, 22:27

I think the responsibilities are shared. If France, at the time, hadn't showed such ingratitude towards the Africans who fought along with us in 1914-18 and 39-45 and had adopted a softer stance on the colonial issue we would very likely never have faced the Algeria war and the consequent wave of immigration that ensued. These people, who fought for us, were housed and worked (hard) in terrible conditions. Yet they didn't complain much. These ones have the right to protest.

Now, if you take this bunch of lazy, decadent, uncivil and violent thugs (not only Arabs), then I agree with you. They are free to leave and I certainly wouldn't regret them. What saddens me though, is that the Arab people who truly are willing to work are discredited because of those scum.This is all very true. Okay, I've had my little rant about people torching my city, now I'm back to my normal reasonable self.

I've said it before in this thread, it's a chicken and egg debate. Yes, France didn't deliver to her immigrants, neither the state nor her citizens ever accepted them as their brothers. So much for our ideal of fraternity.
But you have got to make people respect you also.

It's not that hard. Or well it probably is, but it can be done. The Chinese, Portuguese, Italians, Jews, Poles, Romanians, Vietnamese and Lebanese all managed. All of these groups number in the hundreds of thousands, and are a great contribution to our society.
There are millions of Arabs even who've accepted our society and do very well. Perhaps the greatest tragedy of this all is the discrediting of them.

Louis VI the Fat

11-06-2005, 22:30

Don't you think that you're acting a little gringo here. Sure they're causing disasters, but are they treated with the same respect of all other frenchs?No, they're not.

But then [rant back on] most other French don't hate homosexuals and Jews, don't verbally and sexually assault women who don't subscribe to their dress codes, don't despise France in general and don't have perennial demands for 'respect' to top it off.

It's not Argentina here, it's not about being able to make a living in an economy that has been ravaged in the last few years. I'm sure most of the rioters could be appeased with the promise of the newest cell phones and Euro 300 Nikes so they don't have to go out stealing them anymore. [/rant mode]

Oh well, I should leave this thread too perhaps. I'm in no mood for reasonable, worthwhile contributions.

Meneldil

11-06-2005, 22:32

Pray, tell me what rights they're being denied? The right to employment? The ones who want to work, to be socially integrated are being penalised because of those thugs who give an infamous reputation to specific areas and cultures. Now, should we force employers to recruit people from certain areas, cultures and religions? That would be a breach of freedom and basic rights, since it would be akin to institutionalising discrimination.
Most of the rioters, if not all, are lazy and unwilling to work at school even when given proper opportunities. Better not take that example of 40 people in a classroom because I know from personal experience that being only 25 doesn't make them more hardworking.

Treated poorly? Lack of respect? This certainly is true for their elders, those who have fled Algeria after the war. They have been humiliated and exploited, but did they think it granted them the right to riot? No, while it would have been perfectly understandable if they did. The ones in the streets are regularly ambushing firemen and doctors, they're burning cars and smashing bus stops, removing road signs, terrorising their neighbours, ruining their neighbourhoods and stealing just for the fun of it. Even their "thuggish accent" is repulsive (please don't tell me it's a normal way of talking, unless you're having serious elocution problems). Do you sincerely think that those who demand respect so fiercely act appropriately?

Agreed. Right now, those who really suffered from France's policy are also suffering because of these rioting bastards.

Papewaio

11-06-2005, 23:20

Templar Knight

11-06-2005, 23:24

thats a lot of accountability ~;)

Papewaio

11-06-2005, 23:27

Yes, so much so that they will have to outsource to London for the Accountants. ~;) ~D

QwertyMIDX

11-06-2005, 23:50

The whole idea of "criminal" and "illegal" seriously comes into question in these sort of times. Rioters tend to believe the state structure they're living under is illegitimate in at least some ways. In response that same state structure declares their actions "illegal" and sends in it's coercive forces (police and military) to put down these "illegal" actions. The crux of the issue is that those rebelling, revolting, rioting, etc tend to deny that state's legitimacy to make determinations of legal and illegal. When discussion, news coverage, or whatever else attempts to force such actions into such a paradigm the only serious result is to ignore the reason such action is being taking and to reinforce the dominance of the state structure that is being challenged. People trying to be "unbiased" should take note.

Kanamori

11-06-2005, 23:55

Incorrect, one only needs to look at how France became a Republic in the first place or USA to see that being treated poorly is reason for an act of rebellion and change of state. What the rioters have to understand is if they don't win the should be held accountable for their actions. And even if they do 'win' the criminal element of the riots should be held accountable by the rest.

France also has to learn to make the rioters accountable for their actions. And the French/French Government have to be made accountable for theirs. Any false promises should be made accountable for.

That is erronous reasoning. As I said, the government's actions may provide incentive for people to act some way, but it is another to say that they caused the actions that the people took. The person taking an action is solely the cause of that action. And, I neither agree with the actions the American revolutionaries nor the French revolutionaries took. Yet, I do not know if this "promise" is metaphorical or an actual promise expressly made by the government.

Louis VI the Fat

11-07-2005, 00:24

Yet, I do not know if this "promise" is metaphorical or an actual promise expressly made by the government.Mainly metaphorical, in the words of Meneldil:
It's rather some historical ideology, you know, the Revolution, the Republic, the Human Rights and all that stuff.

But then, this is the very soul of France. That our equality and fraternity in practice do not extend to all is a most painful conclusion.

Alas, we've tried to take on the world once before and failed back then too. Things do tend to go horribly wrong when we extend our arms to the world.

scooter_the_shooter

11-07-2005, 00:53

QwertyMIDX

11-07-2005, 01:18

DANG! This is still going on! I thought they'd of ran out of steam by now. This getting ridiculous. If pepper balls and bean bag guns are not working. Have the Riot police go in there with some 870s and ar15s and clean up!(well thats what they would use here...I don't know what french police armories have) Give them ONE last chance if they refuse send em' in.

That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. "Let's create a few thousand martyrs!" If 2 kids getting themselves killed running from the police caused this what do you think police attacking crowds of civilians with automatic weapons would cause? The French left would certinly take to the streets in solidarty, and not only Chirac's governemnt but the current version French state would be in serious jepoardy.

Kaiser of Arabia

11-07-2005, 01:24

That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. "Let's create a few thousand martyrs!" If 2 kids getting themselves killed running from the police caused this what do you think police attacking crowds of civilians with automatic weapons would cause? The French left would certinly take to the streets in solidarty, and not only Chirac's governemnt but the current version French state would be in serious jepoardy.
What choice do they have? Let the rioting continue, and it will become worse.

scooter_the_shooter

11-07-2005, 01:29

Heck they probably would just have to shoot over their heads and the crowds would run away. And If not they would only have to shoot a few out of each crowd to send the rest running.

OT and pretty pointless but whatever

ar15s are semi auto

870s are pump action

Think about katrina if they shot the first few looters, once every one else found out they'd have stopped

Kanamori

11-07-2005, 01:35

The looters in NO weren't having a race riot though. Here, methinks they attack out of hatred rather than out of opportunity.

Papewaio

11-07-2005, 01:40

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Gendarmerie

The Gendarmerie Mobile

It is divided into legions, similarly as the Gendarmerie Départementale.

Its main responsibilities are

crowd and riot control
security of public buildings
all policing tasks that require large amounts of personnel (Vigipirate counterterrorism patrols, searches in the countryside...).
It has specialized units:

the group of security of intervention of the Gendarmerie Nationale (GSIGN), consisting of:
the intervention group of the Gendarmerie Nationale (GIGN), an elite counterterrorism and hostage rescue unit,
the parachutist squadron of the Gendarmerie Nationale (EPIGN),
a detachment to the security group of the President of the Republic, whose responsibility is to ensure the safety of the President and of its family and guests.
In addition, it has armored units:

17 squadrons equipped with armored personnel carriers, throughout the French territory;
the armored group at Versailles-Satory, consisting of 3 squadrons of armored personnel carriers and 1 squadron of light tanks with 90mm cannons.
Such units may intervene abroad in varied cases such as a hostage crisis or the support of peacekeeping operations.

The tasks of the gendarmes mobiles tasks are similar to those of the police units known as Compagnies Républicaines de Sécurité (CRS), for which they are often mistaken. Easy ways to distinguish them include:

the uniform of the CRS is blue, the gendarmes mobiles are clad in black;
the CRS wear a big red CRS patch; the gendarmes have stylicized grenades.

The Compagnies Républicaines de Sécurité (often abbreviated to CRS) are the riot control forces and general reserve of the French National Police.

In French, the whole force is correctly called les CRS (fem.pl.). In French slang, un CRS (masc.) may also mean "a CRS man". CRS vehicles and uniforms are recognizable by CRS logos.

The CRS were created in 1944 and reorganized in 1948. The task for which they are best known in popular culture is crowd and riot control and re-establishment of order. Their occasional abuse of force has led to recurring criticisms from demonstrators.

A famous slogan from the students revolts of May 1968 was "CRS = SS". More pleasantly, their initials could be subverted, for example in Car rempli de singes ("Coach full of monkeys").

Other missions include:

motorway police in urban areas
rescue operations during the summer on beaches (some CRS officers are trained in beach security).
The CRS and the gendarmes mobiles are often mistaken for each other (their missions are very similar). Ways to distinguish them are:

the uniform of the CRS is blue (albeit dark blue generally), the gendarmes mobiles are clad in black;
the CRS wear a big red CRS patch; the gendarmes have stylicized grenades.

Tribesman

11-07-2005, 02:27

Louis , Meneldil and LDVS .
Were any of your parents rioting in Paris or elsewhere in France in '68 ?
Did the police clampdown back then work or make it worse ?
What about the riots during the pogrom a few years earlier did the police make that better or worse ?
Its nothing new is it . Your national celebration day commemorates a riot does it not .~;)

Treated poorly? Lack of respect? This certainly is true for their elders, those who have fled Algeria after the war. They have been humiliated and exploited, but did they think it granted them the right to riot? No, while it would have been perfectly understandable if they did.
Oh but they did riot didn't they Ldvs . ~:rolleyes:

Leet Eriksson

11-07-2005, 03:42

This is all very true. Okay, I've had my little rant about people torching my city, now I'm back to my normal reasonable self.

I've said it before in this thread, it's a chicken and egg debate. Yes, France didn't deliver to her immigrants, neither the state nor her citizens ever accepted them as their brothers. So much for our ideal of fraternity.
But you have got to make people respect you also.

It's not that hard. Or well it probably is, but it can be done. The Chinese, Portuguese, Italians, Jews, Poles, Romanians, Vietnamese and Lebanese all managed. All of these groups number in the hundreds of thousands, and are a great contribution to our society.
There are millions of Arabs even who've accepted our society and do very well. Perhaps the greatest tragedy of this all is the discrediting of them.

:bow: ~:cheers:

I agree with you, rioters are just damaging the reputation of other arabs. When i was in germany i saw something similiar, Iraqis there were generally doing trouble and egyptians and lebanese were getting lumped in for no particular reason besides being arab.

Btw most arab rioters are algerians? I could probably understand why people don't like them much.

biguth dickuth

11-07-2005, 05:29

What a wonderful set of opinions by most people in here!!!
(reproduced in my own words)

- "It's too late for a descent solution. Let's shoot them all and get rid of them. Sent the army in, guns blazing. Heck, these are not human beings, just scum, they don't deserve to live."

- "Perhaps instead of shooting them we should sent them to labour camps. Yeah, they'll be useful to society there." (as if immigrants with a job aren't already working their asses off for a ludicrous salary, at most cases)

- "No, we'd rather drive the lot of them out of the country. They' re not really humans you know, just scum, so they won't mind being tossed around like rag dolls."

So it is death, incarceration or exile for them, according to you, isn't it? A triptych, like an older one i seem to remember... liberte, egalite, fraternite wasn't it?...

I was expecting to come across nationalistic, right-wing and fascist opinions in these forums and especially in threads like this one but i never expected them to be the majority.
Bourgois are so trapped into the safety of their own wage-slavery and so frightened for their precious posession. They are running around like frantic chickens, screaming "please bring in the police, the army, the neo-nazis, whomever. We don't mind if all freedom melts under military boots, we're just so afraid someone might burn our car."
Immigrants have been harshly used by the capitalist economical machine as a cheap labour force for ages now. They have been repeatedly beaten and abused and often ruthlessly shot at by oh-so-eager-to-keep-order cops. This is not a fact for France alone but for any country in the whole world, including the one i live in (Greece), of course.
After the local working classes in most western countries got incorporated into the system via better salaries and several deals of mutual consensus between their representatives and the state, immigrants were celebrated as the new poor wage-slaves by employers and actually boosted capitalist economy a great deal through endless work-hours. The bourgois became bosses themselves to the new "slaves".
After all this, how do you expect immigrants to be gratefull of the "hospitality" they received, especially when they come from a totally different culture which makes them feel even more alienated? Life in such conditions is also quite likely to cause some of them to become criminals. And i'm not saying that a person is not responsible for their actions. However, one acts according to his personality and personality is carved through countless events and experiences and these are closely related to the society one lives in.
Therefore, the entire society is co-responsible for one's actions. Saying that someone is solely responsible for his actions throughout his life is a very good alibi for people who don't wish to have a part of the responsibility of what goes wrong in the society.

Papewaio

11-07-2005, 06:13

You are always as an adult responsible for your actions. To do else wise is to be a slave to society.

Most of the people in the same situation as the rioters are not using violence. They have chosen to not be violent, it is their choice.

----

Society has created a bad situation, the choice via ballot or brick is the individuals.

Kanamori

11-07-2005, 06:25

It is a terribly sad what it has come to~:( I just hope things get better.

Radier

11-07-2005, 09:00

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L06745615.htm

Hmm now they are shooting too...
Ten policemen hurt.

This is only getting worse. I see some of you do not want to send the army in, but what then do you want to do? Just curious as I can´t come up with any better solution.

Shaka_Khan

11-07-2005, 09:15

When will we ever get along? I don't know what to say about this. ~:(

Radier

11-07-2005, 14:06

Ok today one man died because of the riots. And look at this:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/07/berlin.fires.ap/index.html

Redleg

11-07-2005, 14:51

You are always as an adult responsible for your actions. To do else wise is to be a slave to society.

Yes indeed Papewaio is correct. Individual responsiblity comes first.

Most of the people in the same situation as the rioters are not using violence. They have chosen to not be violent, it is their choice.

Lets see the statistics will support Papewaio statement here 100%. How many in the population of the area are actually rioting - I bet its somewhere around 10-15%. Surely the majority understands personal responisiblity.

Society has created a bad situation, the choice via ballot or brick is the individuals.

:bow:

yesdachi

11-07-2005, 16:10

Ok, here’s what I don’t get. Why not leave? Move to another part of the city or another country, somewhere there are jobs and better conditions? My family has moved because of a job before and I have personally moved my family because I did not like the way my neighborhood was changing.

I’m not saying run away from all your troubles but an individual’s first priority should be to take care of themselves.

If you want snow but live in the desert, it doesn’t matter how much you riot, you will never get snow… move! Is it really that hard to cut your losses and just admit that your neighborhood sucks and leave? Sure money may be tight but if you stay it wont get any better. If faced with an option between staying in a neighborhood that is consistently getting worse and moving, why not move?~:confused:

Devastatin Dave

11-07-2005, 16:29

Ok, here’s what I don’t get. Why not leave?
Well, not to insult any of the Muslims on this forum because when i say this I'm sepaking strictly about extremists... They have a belief that infidels deserve only death and that they should own everything. These rioters unfortunately are resembling the extrimist of the Muslim Faith. Can anyone provide information on whether this is true or not and what they are demanding? News is kind of scarce from the point of view of the rioters.

econ21

11-07-2005, 16:35

Ok, here’s what I don’t get. Why not leave?

It seems most of the rioters are youths - I read something about a bomb factory being found and all the people arrested being minors. They probably don't have the autonomy or cash to move easily. Nor - with all due respect to our younger patrons - are such youths necessarily that rational.

I also think it's naive to equate rebelliousness with absolute, rather than relative, deprivation. Young African immigrants in France are probably better off in absolute terms than if they were in Africa but not in relative terms. In France, they are poorer than most French natives and may feel aggrieved at that. If "sent back" to Africa or wherever, they might be relatively privileged or at worst as poor as everyone else, and so be more docile.

I wonder what proportion of the rioters are second generation immigrants? ie people who have effectively switched their reference group (comparing their living standards to the French, rather than people in other countries). First generation immigrants are often acquiescent as they appreciate the absolute economic benefits that immigration has brought them.

However, I suspect the riots are not fundamentally about socio-economic conditions. In the UK, we had a wave of quite serious riots in the early 1980s and, although there was mass unemployment and other underlying problems, my impression was that the real tensions centred on policing. From what I gather of the French riots, tension over policing also seems to have been the flashpoint.

Interestingly, with the early 1980s riots in the UK, Mrs Thatcher reacted by announcing lots of initiatives to improve policing and invest in the inner cities. If she or her ministers had called the young people on the streets scum, we might have had 11 continuous nights of trouble as well instead of shorter outbreaks we experienced. As Winston Churchill said, if you are trying to kill a man, there's no reason to insult him first.

yesdachi

11-07-2005, 16:57

It seems most of the rioters are youths
What about the parents then? Why are they not saying enough is enough, we didn’t move here for our kids to live like this, let’s pack up our stuff and leave. If they are immigrants, even a generation out, they have been thru not being able to make it (or disliking it) somewhere else and wanted to move to where they are now. They had sense to do it before, why not again?:sad3:

QwertyMIDX

11-07-2005, 17:38

:bow: ~:cheers:

I agree with you, rioters are just damaging the reputation of other arabs. When i was in germany i saw something similiar, Iraqis there were generally doing trouble and egyptians and lebanese were getting lumped in for no particular reason besides being arab.

Btw most arab rioters are algerians? I could probably understand why people don't like them much.

Yay ignorance, they're not Arabs they're from Africa (mostly North).

Society has created a bad situation, the choice via ballot or brick is the individuals.

What do you do when the ballot box doesn't offer you any real choice? Representative democracy is kind of shame in case you haven't noticed. Rich White Guy A or Rich White Guy B, they might have some minor policy differences, but they both have too much invested in the current political and economic systems to support truly radical change.

Ok, here’s what I don’t get. Why not leave? Move to another part of the city or another country, somewhere there are jobs and better conditions?

Has it ever occured to you that it requires money to move? In our world of ever "freer" trade we don't allow labor anything like the same mobility. While this is even more true between states, it is true within them as well, you can't just pick up everything you have and go somewhere else, you need resources to follow resources.

Meneldil

11-07-2005, 18:08

Louis , Meneldil and LDVS .
Were any of your parents rioting in Paris or elsewhere in France in '68 ?
My mother was, and that don't make her any smarter or more worthy than people who did not riot. I think the '68 events were a bunch of crap anyway.

What about the riots during the pogrom a few years earlier did the police make that better or worse ?

Never heard of a pogrom in France lately ~:confused:
I know there are issues between the muslim and jewish communities, but I don't think anyone burnt jews a 'few years earlier'.
Furthermore, that's not because France is known for it violent riots and manifestations that we should allow people to trample our values or to attack innocents. They have no legal or social claim to support their movement, except the good old "On va les niquer" or "Sarkozy enculé".

What a wonderful set of opinions by most people in here!!!
(reproduced in my own words)

- "It's too late for a descent solution. Let's shoot them all and get rid of them. Sent the army in, guns blazing. Heck, these are not human beings, just scum, they don't deserve to live."

- "Perhaps instead of shooting them we should sent them to labour camps. Yeah, they'll be useful to society there." (as if immigrants with a job aren't already working their asses off for a ludicrous salary, at most cases)

- "No, we'd rather drive the lot of them out of the country. They' re not really humans you know, just scum, so they won't mind being tossed around like rag dolls."

So it is death, incarceration or exile for them, according to you, isn't it? A triptych, like an older one i seem to remember... liberte, egalite, fraternite wasn't it?...

Wtf man ? Do you know what these people are saying ? What they're doing ? They set fire to an old woman, they finally achieved to kill someone today. They are firing on firemen, on cops.
Do you want me to copy/paste their speech ?

Furthermore, if they are rioting and attacking innocents, they should expect to be hitten back, and hitten back badly. That's what would happen in nearly every country in the world. But not in France.
We offered them Liberté, Egalité and Fraternité. They refused the offer, and now, they are spitting on these values. They seriously ought to be punished, and in the harshest way.

I was expecting to come across nationalistic, right-wing and fascist opinions in these forums and especially in threads like this one but i never expected them to be the majority.

Frankly, that's because you're either a naive hippie, or because you're the bourgeois you're describing in your post, and thus never met this kind of people. They have been a pain in the ass of every single frenchman - white, black, arab, asian - for decades. Right now, why do you think arabs and blacks have a bad reputation ? Just for the fact they're black or brown ? Of course not, but I'll give you a hint, that's because we always hear of these arab and black scums from suburbs, who respect nothing and no-one, who will kill someone because he doesn't live in 'their' city, because he doesn't look enough gang-ish, or because he simply did not respect them (yet, they show absolutely no respect for anything, except their own miserable lifes of illiterate little gangsters). And things will get only worse with these riots.
Just for your information, I don't think I'm a nationalistic right winger nutjob, and I don't think either Ldvs or Louis VI are nationalistic nutjobs. I'd rather consider myself as a socialist. Believe it or not, but I probably have more arab friends than you. Using buzzwords like that won't bring you anywhere.

Bourgois are so trapped into the safety of their own wage-slavery and so frightened for their precious posession. They are running around like frantic chickens, screaming "please bring in the police, the army, the neo-nazis, whomever. We don't mind if all freedom melts under military boots, we're just so afraid someone might burn our car."

ROFL, man. Get it on. Do you actually even know what they're doing ? They aren't attacking wealthy people, bourgois or big company bosses. They're burning cars of people who are as poor as them. They're just shooting randomly in the street of their own cities.

Immigrants have been harshly used by the capitalist economical machine as a cheap labour force for ages now. They have been repeatedly beaten and abused and often ruthlessly shot at by oh-so-eager-to-keep-order cops. This is not a fact for France alone but for any country in the whole world, including the one i live in (Greece), of course.

Okay, now, although one of the main problem is the fact that many non-white french are unemployed, you're saying they (immigrants) are harshly used by the 'evil forces of capitalism'. Well, my parents are also used as manpower by the evil forces of capitalism and by a society that main aim is mass consummation. Guess what, I'll likely be used as manpower by the evil forces of capitalism too. Low class white workers aren't rioting because they have underpaid. Furthermore, more than half of the rioters are not even 18, never tried to study, never tried to work and will likely never ever try seriously to get a job.

Therefore, the entire society is co-responsible for one's actions. Saying that someone is solely responsible for his actions throughout his life is a very good alibi for people who don't wish to have a part of the responsibility of what goes wrong in the society.

Yeah sure, I should feel responsible if these guys are too stupid to even try to find a job. I should feel responsible when they set fire at this old woman. And sure, the average Joe (or rather, the average Dupond) should feel responsible aswell. I mean, my parents would never have achieved to buy this house without the 2 black slaves they're holding in my cave. Oh wait, I'm going to ask my tunisian slave to do my homework and to study for me, I don't really feel like getting my fingers out of my *** today.
If you don't have better arguments than some outdated marxist theories, I guess I'll be having some serious problem arguing with you.

The best proof that they're responsible for their action is that a lot of people, wether they're black, arab, white, achieve to find a job, to leave these suburbs and to integrate in the society.

Most of the people in the same situation as the rioters are not using violence. They have chosen to not be violent, it is their choice.

That's precisely the point. From some comments here, it would appears that some people think everyone in France except the migrants is wealthy, owns 3 or 4 cars, 2 houses and whatelse. Well, sorry to disappoint you, but no. There's a load of white poors who don't burn the first thing they have on their hands. Guess what, there's also a load of arab poors who don't riot.

Crazed Rabbit

11-07-2005, 18:11

I think this has more to do with self-imposed isolation and refusal to integrate and think of themselves as French than any supposed disenfranchisement. The rioters, from the little I know about their motives, which could be wrong, aren't rioting over voting rights but want the French out of their neighberhoods. They are trying to impose the culture of their homelands to the new country.

Crazed Rabbit

Meneldil

11-07-2005, 18:14

Yay ignorance, they're not Arabs they're from Africa (mostly North).

And thus, mostly arabs...
And that doesn't change the fact they're seriously hurting the reputation of other migrants. The rioters are only a few people, but by doing that, they hurt their whole community.

Abokasee

11-07-2005, 18:26

HERE ARE THE INCREASES OF EVENTS:

~:mecry: ~:confused: :charge: :ballchain: :dancinglock: :viking: :director: :scared:

Here are decreases:shakehands: :nurse: :listen: :hippie: :elephant: ~:pimp: ~:lightbulb: ~:yin-yang: ~:thumb:

quite sad isnt it?

yesdachi

11-07-2005, 18:30

Has it ever occured to you that it requires money to move? In our world of ever "freer" trade we don't allow labor anything like the same mobility. While this is even more true between states, it is true within them as well, you can't just pick up everything you have and go somewhere else, you need resources to follow resources.
Sure it occurred to me, I’m not that blind~;p, but they didn’t have a bag of gold with them when they decided to leave (from wherever they came from) and there wasn’t a bag of gold in France for them when they arrived and there isn’t a bag of gold in there hands now. Money is helpful but it is not “required” to move. I can think of plenty of examples all it takes is a desire and that is what I don’t see and cant understand. :bow:

BDC

11-07-2005, 18:50

Sure it occurred to me, I’m not that blind~;p, but they didn’t have a bag of gold with them when they decided to leave (from wherever they came from) and there wasn’t a bag of gold in France for them when they arrived and there isn’t a bag of gold in there hands now. Money is helpful but it is not “required” to move. I can think of plenty of examples all it takes is a desire and that is what I don’t see and cant understand. :bow:
Also, I think any young black guys in France would find it very hard to get a job or survive if they just suddenly moved to a lot of places. Racism and poor education.

Tribesman

11-07-2005, 19:25

My mother was, and that don't make her any smarter or more worthy than people who did not riot. I think the '68 events were a bunch of crap anyway.

So your mother thought she was right when she was out on the street with all the others ,causing chaos for weeks throughout the country , whats so different with those doing it now ?

Never heard of a pogrom in France lately
I know there are issues between the muslim and jewish communities, but I don't think anyone burnt jews a 'few years earlier'.

What has the Jewish communty got to do with it , apart from the fact that some of them were caught up in the pogrom because they "looked" Algerian , as did the other North Africans and some Spaniards , Italians and French .
It was rather embarrasing for your government at the time .

I think this has more to do with self-imposed isolation and refusal to integrate and think of themselves as French than any supposed disenfranchisement. The rioters, from the little I know about their motives, which could be wrong, aren't rioting over voting rights but want the French out of their neighberhoods. They are trying to impose the culture of their homelands to the new country.

Yes Rabbit people choose to live in the worst parts of town , and isolate themselves in run down shitholes where the landlord doesn't give a damn if the house burns down with all his tenants in it , its part of their culture you see and all self-imposed~:rolleyes:

Crazed Rabbit

11-07-2005, 19:34

Yes Rabbit people choose to live in the worst parts of town , and isolate themselves in run down shitholes where the landlord doesn't give a damn if the house burns down with all his tenants in it , its part of their culture you see and all self-imposed

I didn't say anything like that. *cough* strawman *cough*

Crazed Rabbit

Ldvs

11-07-2005, 19:35

Louis , Meneldil and LDVS .
Were any of your parents rioting in Paris or elsewhere in France in '68 ?
My parents didn't riot.

Treated poorly? Lack of respect? This certainly is true for their elders, those who have fled Algeria after the war. They have been humiliated and exploited, but did they think it granted them the right to riot? No, while it would have been perfectly understandable if they did.
Oh but they did riot didn't they Ldvs .
Tell me when, then. If you're thinking about Paris in 1961, you're completely wrong. They were assaulted, not the other way round.

Incorrect, one only needs to look at how France became a Republic in the first place or USA to see that being treated poorly is reason for an act of rebellion and change of state.
Let's compare what is comparable, please. The rioters in question here are not peasants in the late 18th century who suffered from exploitation and terrible living conditions. They are thugs taking any cheap excuses they possibly can to make trouble.

Gawain of Orkeny

11-07-2005, 19:44

From what Ive been able to gather its mostly about anti secualrism. Isnt that a hoot. Their mad because of Frances policies on religion and not allowing Islam in the government. They were warned about the headscarf issue long ago. AS CR said they want to make France like their homeland. An Islamic nation. Sounds familiar does it not?

Meneldil

11-07-2005, 19:47

So your mother thought she was right when she was out on the street with all the others ,causing chaos for weeks throughout the country , whats so different with those doing it now ?

Ok, let's put it simply : I *said* (or typed) that (IMHO) the 68 event were a bunch of crap. I *said* that the fact she 'rioted' (well, I don't think she rioted, since she simply walked in the street while singing the International) did not make her any better (IMO).
But then, you forget something quite obvious here. My mother did not burn a car, did not send stones at cops, did not set fire to an old women, did not shot at random people with a gun and did not spend her time saying things like "We're gonna blow everything up" or "We're gonna f*** them all".
This is a huge difference.
Furthermore, 68 rioters were actually punished, and some were harshly punished, wherease I have the feeling you think we should just let these scums do whatever they like in 'their' cities, even though they trampling the Republican values, our State and their neighbours.

What has the Jewish communty got to do with it , apart from the fact that some of them were caught up in the pogrom because they "looked" Algerian , as did the other North Africans and some Spaniards , Italians and French .
It was rather embarrasing for your government at the time .

What are you speaking about here ? Which pogrom is that ? ~:confused:
I'm really lost here.
Edit : Ok got it, thanks to Ldvs' post. See his comment about that : the arabs did not riot, they were just walking on the street when the police attacked them.

Yes Rabbit people choose to live in the worst parts of town , and isolate themselves in run down shitholes where the landlord doesn't give a damn if the house burns down with all his tenants in it , its part of their culture you see and all self-imposed~:rolleyes:

Agreed. But then, what should we do ? Build 4 stars palaces for illegal migrants, while a load of french are living in crappy appartment ?

Tribesman

11-07-2005, 19:58

Tell me when, then. If you're thinking about Paris in 1961, you're completely wrong. They were assaulted, not the other way round.

Assaulted ? slaughtered is the word , after they had stopped rioting and bombing , and staged a peaceful protest .

From what Ive been able to gather its mostly about anti secualrism. Isnt that a hoot.
First I've heard of it ?
Their mad because of Frances policies on religion and not allowing Islam in the government.
Ummmm. No
AS CR said they want to make France like their homeland. An Islamic nation. Sounds familiar does it not?
Sounds like bull does it not .
Come on Gawain post a news link for your version of events ~D ~D ~D

Devastatin Dave

11-07-2005, 19:59

Meneldil, I understand your frustration, but you might want to edit your f-bomb...
I still don't know if this is really a religious issue at all. If it was a religious issue, I believe that this would have happened earlier since there was much more of religious contrversy in France in years past. The media is very unclear whether it is a racial or religious issue. To me, it seems a lot more of a money, financial issues more than anything. There HAS to be wringleaders involved. Find the head or this, remove it, this will end. My fear is France will just put a band aide on the issue and it will only festure into even more problems, all across Europe.

Is it true that many of these folks that are rioting 2nd and 3rd generation citizens? If that's the case than this issue is even worse than any of us realise.

Papewaio

11-07-2005, 20:19

Let's compare what is comparable, please. The rioters in question here are not peasants in the late 18th century who suffered from exploitation and terrible living conditions. They are thugs taking any cheap excuses they possibly can to make trouble.

1) Aren't these on the lowest strata in society?

2) Do you really believe the French Revolution was lead be peasants for peasants? No way. It was educated upper middle and upper classes wanting to replace the aristocracy with themselves. They needed manpower so they got the peasants involved. They did most of the deeds for themselves not the peasant underclass.

Papewaio

11-07-2005, 20:23

What do you do when the ballot box doesn't offer you any real choice? Representative democracy is kind of shame in case you haven't noticed. Rich White Guy A or Rich White Guy B, they might have some minor policy differences, but they both have too much invested in the current political and economic systems to support truly radical change.

Protest votes work pretty well here in Australia.

What doesn't work to well is when all the immigrants stay in a single voting district (Auburn) and always vote Labor by huge margins. This makes neither the Liberals (who are our right) or Labor (slightly left) work for the vote.

It is the districts that are marginal and swing either way that have the most impact on elections... as they are the ones that get the most buy offs/ pork barralleling / political change.

Sjakihata

11-07-2005, 20:42

The Revolution has started!

Meneldil

11-07-2005, 20:44

I still don't know if this is really a religious issue at all. If it was a religious issue, I believe that this would have happened earlier since there was much more of religious contrversy in France in years past. The media is very unclear whether it is a racial or religious issue. To me, it seems a lot more of a money, financial issues more than anything. There HAS to be wringleaders involved. Find the head or this, remove it, this will end. My fear is France will just put a band aide on the issue and it will only festure into even more problems, all across Europe.

Once more, there's no issue whatsoever. They're just enjoying themselves by spreading mayhem. Some claim they do it because "of the system", some say that's because they're unemployed, some claim that's because of what one of our minister said one week ago (he called them scums. Too bad they don't like it, but they're scums), and some use the religious excuse aswell : "Islam is not respected", "They insulted the Prophet", etc.
As I said, many of them are not even 18. Some are 12 or 13 years old. They never had to find a job, they never studied at school, they never went to the Mosquee, they never had an issue with the police, but they'll find a reason to riot, because they *want* to throw things and to burn cars.

Is it true that many of these folks that are rioting 2nd and 3rd generation citizens? If that's the case than this issue is even worse than any of us realise.

Yes.

1) Aren't these on the lowest strata in society?

No. Actually, there are far poorer people. Ancient hand-workers from northern France are also unemployed, but they get far less social helps. Oh, and they don't deal drug btw.
There's also a load of homeless people in France.

Assaulted ? slaughtered is the word , after they had stopped rioting and bombing , and staged a peaceful protest .

The Algerians 'slaughtered' in 1961 never rioted or bombed anything. They were just manifesting peacefully.

But if you think they were slaughtered, I think this word may applies aswell with the current rioters, no ?

Radier

11-07-2005, 21:49

http://www.netwerk.tv/templates/videoasx.jsp?f=198614

Some two minutes in the movie you can hear some rioters in France scream "Allah Akhbar!". There are muslim extremists out there...

They also uses blogs as an orginizing tool.

"The cops are petrified of us, everything must burn, starting Monday, the operation 'Midnight Sun' starts,
tell everyone else, rendezvous for Momo and Abdul in Zone 4
... jihad Islamia Allah Akhbar."

Those who say Islam has nothing to do with the riots are wrong.

Ldvs

11-07-2005, 22:00

Assaulted ? slaughtered is the word , after they had stopped rioting and bombing , and staged a peaceful protest .
Do not confuse extremists' movements such as FLN / ALN and the Arabs that were "slaughtered" during these events.

1) Aren't these on the lowest strata in society?

2) Do you really believe the French Revolution was lead be peasants for peasants? No way. It was educated upper middle and upper classes wanting to replace the aristocracy with themselves. They needed manpower so they got the peasants involved. They did most of the deeds for themselves not the peasant underclass.
1) Since they leave school without diploma, as a matter of fact, they can only get low paid jobs, when they get one at all. So yes they're part of the lowest strata, along with millions of other French who aren't originated from North Africa. It's possibly the only similarity with the situation of the peasants in the 18th century.

2) Thanks for the History course. I think I really lack knowledge about the French Revolution, I'm only French after all. I'd like you check my short list of the major middle / upper class protagonists during the Revolution's period: le Club des Cordeliers (Danton, Marat, Desmoulins), les Jacobins (Robespierre, La Fayette, Le Chapelier, Couthon, Mirabeau, Condorcet), les Feuillants (Barnave, Tayllerand, Dupont de Nemours, La Fayette, La Rochefoucauld), les Enragés (Roux, Valois), les Girondins (Brissot, Condorcet, Roland) and les Montagnards (Robespierre, Danton, Marat, Desmoulins, Saint-Just, Couthon),... Perhaps I should also make an essay showing how Robespierre started from good principles but progressively turned into a megalomaniac madman under his Terreur. Comparing what happens today in the streets with what happened in 1789-1799 is an outrage!

2 bis) What part of my sentence did you misinterpret and made you come up with that aristocracy thingy, which has nothing to do with the topic at hand, unless you insinuate there's a link between the current French aristocracy and the thugs in the streets? The rioters are partly manipulated by extremists and drug dealers but I highly doubt it has anything to do with aristocracy. Or prove it.

Papewaio

11-07-2005, 22:27

Well for all your knowledge you seem to be lacking perspective and the ability to apply it. It is not an outrage at all to use history to gain insight. It is arrogance to make an assumption that there is nothing to learn.

The rioters in general are the peasants... they are a means to the ends.

The ends of whom? Right wing politicians check. Extremists Check.

For the extremists the politicians in power are the equivalent of the aristocracy. They are using the rioters to enact the change they want. Now it maybe that all the extremists will demand is removal of headscarf bans, more political power, more autonomy in their districts. They will use the riots and rioters as leverage to get their change.

Some of the more hubris visioned extremists actually believe they can go all the way with a revolution.

For the right wing politicians it is a perfect reason for them to get more power by enacting political change in their favour. I'm sure some of them would like to use grape shot and a cavalry charge to clamp down on the riots... edit a more recent example would be the power gain that the Nazis got when the parliament got burned down... Anarchy plays into the hands of the right.

Either way it is the left and moderates who have the most to lose and the least leverage in this situation.

BDC

11-07-2005, 22:38

Speaking to a French student, he seemed extremely worried that this could all spiral out of control. In his view it was the results of lots of unemployed, poorly educated, young men (white or black) who were further antagonised by inept politicians insulting them and threatening them with the army.

Said he'd move to England if it got more out of hand... So he must be really worried lol.

yesdachi

11-07-2005, 22:42

yesdachi

11-07-2005, 22:44

Either way it is the left and moderates who have the most to lose and the least leverage in this situation.
One could argue that it is the left and moderates fault that things have gotten this bad.~;)

Meneldil

11-07-2005, 22:48

The ends of whom? Right wing politicians check. Extremists Check.

For the extremists the politicians in power are the equivalent of the aristocracy. They are using the rioters to enact the change they want. Now it maybe that all the extremists will demand is removal of headscarf bans, more political power, more autonomy in their districts. They will use the riots and rioters as leverage to get their change.

Some of the more hubris visioned extremists actually believe they can go all the way with a revolution.

For the right wing politicians it is a perfect reason for them to get more power by enacting political change in their favour. I'm sure some of them would like to use grape shot and a cavalry charge to clamp down on the riots... edit a more recent example would be the power gain that the Nazis got when the parliament got burned down... Anarchy plays into the hands of the right.

Either way it is the left and moderates who have the most to lose and the least leverage in this situation.

Once again you're right sir. I'm seriously worried about the effect of these events onto our next presidential election. Another Right vs Extreme Right 2nd turn would really stinks.

yesdachi

11-07-2005, 22:51

Is one of the reasons France was so against the war in the middle east because it/France wanted to be extra sensitive to the Arabs in France?:bow:

Dâriûsh

11-07-2005, 22:55

Some two minutes in the movie you can hear some rioters in France scream "Allah Akhbar!". There are muslim extremists out there...

Those who say Islam has nothing to do with the riots are wrong. It sounds to me like these kids like to think they’re Palestinian freedom fighters.

If they truly are Islamic extremists shouldn’t they have respected the Ramadan?

Meneldil

11-07-2005, 22:56

I don't know why our President was against the war, though I'd guess it was because that's part of his official policy to appear as a friend of the arab world.
France as a whole was rather against it because it was based of falsy claims, and had no link with the war on terrorism.

Ldvs

11-07-2005, 23:08

For the extremists the politicians in power are the equivalent of the aristocracy. They are using the rioters to enact the change they want. Now it maybe that all the extremists will demand is removal of headscarf bans, more political power, more autonomy in their districts. They will use the riots and rioters as leverage to get their change.

Some of the more hubris visioned extremists actually believe they can go all the way with a revolution.

For the right wing politicians it is a perfect reason for them to get more power by enacting political change in their favour. I'm sure some of them would like to use grape shot and a cavalry charge to clamp down on the riots... edit a more recent example would be the power gain that the Nazis got when the parliament got burned down... Anarchy plays into the hands of the right.

Either way it is the left and moderates who have the most to lose and the least leverage in this situation.
True.

The ends of whom? Right wing politicians check. Extremists Check.
As I said, the rioters are partly manipulated by extremists and drug dealers. As for the right wing politicans, they will undoubtedly use the situation to their advantage but it is yet to be proved they're, directly or indirectly, involved in the riots.

Well for all your knowledge you seem to be lacking perspective and the ability to apply it. It is not an outrage at all to use history to gain insight. It is arrogance to make an assumption that there is nothing to learn.
Hmmm, good thought. By the way, I'm sure the millions of French who died during this period would really appreciate that one draws parallels between their claims and what they fought and died for and what these decadent thugs demand.

The rioters in general are the peasants... they are a means to the ends.
I'm sorry but I cannot see it that way. While I understand parallels are important, there must be at least some similarities between the situations to back them up, otherwise they're pointless.

On a side note, I apologise for being too vehement in my last post and hope you haven't taken offense, Papewaoi.

Tribesman

11-07-2005, 23:09

Do not confuse extremists' movements such as FLN / ALN and the Arabs that were "slaughtered" during these events.

Why not ? De Gaulle did , Papon did , the police did .
The harrasment covered all of them , the curfew covered all of them , regardless of if they had anything to do with the FLN . They were all classed the same .
Just like that idiot of an interior minister has done now .

Is one of the reasons France was so against the war in the middle east because it/France wanted to be extra sensitive to the Arabs in France?
Yeah it was the same with the Russians , Chinese , Germans .~:joker:
France as a whole was rather against it because it was based of falsy claims, and had no link with the war on terrorism:bow:

Radier

11-07-2005, 23:16

It sounds to me like these kids like to think they’re Palestinian freedom fighters.

If they truly are Islamic extremists shouldn’t they have respected the Ramadan?

No... According to you, muslim extremists do not respect the Qur'an, right? Why then would they respect Ramadan?

Ldvs

11-07-2005, 23:23

Do not confuse extremists' movements such as FLN / ALN and the Arabs that were "slaughtered" during these events.

Why not ? De Gaulle did , Papon did , the police did .
The harrasment covered all of them , the curfew covered all of them , regardless of if they had anything to do with the FLN . They were all classed the same.
Exactly why it is important not to make the same mistake ~;)

Just like that idiot of an interior minister has done now.
You must know by now that "competence" isn't the French ministers' watchword ~D Seriously, that's alarming the way he's taking more and more liberties just to gain popularity among the masses. He's going to literally suck Le Pen's electoral core before the presidential elections.

Bulawayo

11-07-2005, 23:34

No... According to you, muslim extremists do not respect the Qur'an, right? Why then would they respect Ramadan?

Du har inga bra NS- eller SD-länkar att bjuda på?

Jag fick en sån känsla bara..:hide:

Papewaio

11-07-2005, 23:35

I'm sorry but I cannot see it that way. While I understand parallels are important, there must be at least some similarities between the situations to back them up, otherwise they're pointless.

On a side note, I apologise for being too vehement in my last post and hope you haven't taken offense, Papewaoi.

The parallels are in the manipulation not in the validity in what they are fighting for. The rioters are being used like the peasants were. I don't think the peasants had any more say in which side the ultimately fought for other then who had the most local influence. The peasants had a bad lot and a group promised them something better... same with the Nazi brown shirts.

Same thing here. The local influence has been lost from the government and the police to the extremists. The rioters on the whole are pawns for a powerplay just like the peasants were. The extremists will either go for a political concessions or local community influence.

To win you don't bother going for the body you go for the head. But you have to figure out who is getting the most benefit.

Radier

11-07-2005, 23:48

Du har inga bra NS- eller SD-länkar att bjuda på?

Jag fick en sån känsla bara..:hide:

ND är svin, men Sverigedemokrat är jag. Har du något problem med det eller står du för demokrati? ~;)

Ldvs

11-07-2005, 23:48

The rioters are being used like the peasants were.
Not exactly, since the manipulation was explicit during the Revolution. Now, perhaps you'll be proven right in the near future if it becomes explicit, too.

The parallels are in the manipulation not in the validity in what they are fighting for.
I guess we have very different conceptions of what is required to draw parallels. I see your point, although I still believe taking the French Revolution as example is not relevant here.

Tribesman

11-07-2005, 23:54

You must know by now that "competence" isn't the French ministers' watchword
Yep , from the moment those two youths got electrocuted he hasn't done a thing right , everytime he says anything on the subject he is just pouring petrol on the flames .
Whats his latest version of the tear-gassing of the mosque , a car was causing an obstruction ?????
Still I suppose thats better than "it didn't happen" or "it wasn't the police" .
Anyway they are all burglars and scum aren't they ~:confused:

What a muppet .Sack him , oh but thats what all the graffiti is saying isn't it .

Papewaio

11-08-2005, 00:03

I guess we have very different conceptions of what is required to draw parallels. I see your point, although I still believe taking the French Revolution as example is not relevant here.

Well, when a cake is promised and failed to be delivered the customer gets irate.

biguth dickuth

11-08-2005, 02:40

Wtf man ? Do you know what these people are saying ? What they're doing ? They set fire to an old woman, they finally achieved to kill someone today. They are firing on firemen, on cops.
Do you want me to copy/paste their speech ?
I don't recall writing that this riot is a model of how revolutionary violence should be. No, these people are enraged. They may be merely organised but most of their violence is blind. They destroy things, not just symbols of their oppression but anything that they find in front of them in order to provoke and show that they are not kidding. They expect to receive the respect that is owed to every human being. Instead, they are treated as scum for ages now. All their dignity has been violently removed from them in a slow and constant procedure dating many years back in time. Most of them bend their heads and continue to work in, mostly, hard and underpaid jobs. But few can no more put up with it. Being very young, often "under-age", only adds to the ferociousness of their actions, which, like in the case of burning the old lady, are pointlessly cruel and dumb.
But please don't give any metaphysical explanations of the sort: "they are evil", "they are scum", "the only solution is shooting them". People are not born violent, they are made so. These guys are out to show they deserve some respect. They have been ignored for too long and want to draw some attention at last.

We offered them Liberté, Egalité and Fraternité. They refused the offer, and now, they are spitting on these values. They seriously ought to be punished, and in the harshest way.
Ha ha ha...that's so funny i can hardly comment on it. When exactly was it that you offered them those things? When were they free, when were they treated as equals or as brothers and sisters? You don't even have these things yourselves (the "regular" french) and neither does any other person living in any country, including the so-called "western democracies".

Frankly, that's because you're either a naive hippie, or because you're the bourgeois you're describing in your post, and thus never met this kind of people. They have been a pain in the ass of every single frenchman - white, black, arab, asian - for decades. Right now, why do you think arabs and blacks have a bad reputation ? Just for the fact they're black or brown ? Of course not, but I'll give you a hint, that's because we always hear of these arab and black scums from suburbs, who respect nothing and no-one, who will kill someone because he doesn't live in 'their' city, because he doesn't look enough gang-ish, or because he simply did not respect them (yet, they show absolutely no respect for anything, except their own miserable lifes of illiterate little gangsters). And things will get only worse with these riots.
Just for your information, I don't think I'm a nationalistic right winger nutjob, and I don't think either Ldvs or Louis VI are nationalistic nutjobs. I'd rather consider myself as a socialist. Believe it or not, but I probably have more arab friends than you. Using buzzwords like that won't bring you anywhere.
I'm not a hippie and i guess i'm not that naive either. I know how many fascists there are around and i was sure there were plenty in here but i expected to see a few more liberals and "leftish" people making some noise. Unfortunately, there are only a few exceptions.
Since you want to turn this personal, i can tell you that my family is indeed a burgeois one but i'm not exactly the son they wished for. And you know, there are immigrants in Greece too. They are not a few. They are about 10%-15% of the entire population. They may not be north-africans but they are Albanians, Romanians, Kurds, Afghans and a lot more.
Therefore, i have seen them and met them. I know that some of them turn to criminal life but that's a (wrong) way that some of them choose to escape from the hardships of poverty and achieve some welfare status. In my opinion, they should instead try to overthrow the state.

By the way, it's interesting that you consider yourself a socialist, rather than a "right-winger nutjob". The term "fascists" was, anyway, not appointed directly to you. However, the only "socialists" i can recall proposing totalitarian "kill'em all" solutions were in the ex-Soviet Union, and to me the Soviet Union was a fascist state with a communist facade.

ROFL, man. Get it on. Do you actually even know what they're doing ? They aren't attacking wealthy people, bourgois or big company bosses. They're burning cars of people who are as poor as them. They're just shooting randomly in the street of their own cities.
I already commented on the "blind" character of their violence earlier in the thread.

Okay, now, although one of the main problem is the fact that many non-white french are unemployed, you're saying they (immigrants) are harshly used by the 'evil forces of capitalism'. Well, my parents are also used as manpower by the evil forces of capitalism and by a society that main aim is mass consummation. Guess what, I'll likely be used as manpower by the evil forces of capitalism too. Low class white workers aren't rioting because they have underpaid. Furthermore, more than half of the rioters are not even 18, never tried to study, never tried to work and will likely never ever try seriously to get a job.
You are using the word "evil" in order to make a mockery of my attack against the capitalist system, making it sound as if it's a religious and irrational hatred or something. I never used the term "evil" refering to capitalism and i never use it anyway as i feel that the unescapeable relativity of "good" and "evil" does not allow me any easy judging on what is "right" and what is "wrong". My dislike of the capitalist system is a product of my knowledge of it's eroding and destructive effects to human relationships, to our ralationship with nature and to the planet itself. Now, if you people choose not to see this, it's your choice i'm afraid.
Regarding low-class white workers, they should be rioting too, in my opinion, as they have done so many times in the past. The reason they don't do it is that they are somewhat better off than they were in the past and they are much more integrated into the system now, than they were in the past.

Yeah sure, I should feel responsible if these guys are too stupid to even try to find a job. I should feel responsible when they set fire at this old woman. And sure, the average Joe (or rather, the average Dupond) should feel responsible aswell. I mean, my parents would never have achieved to buy this house without the 2 black slaves they're holding in my cave. Oh wait, I'm going to ask my tunisian slave to do my homework and to study for me, I don't really feel like getting my fingers out of my *** today.
~:) You're being funny again! Well, you see, there is a thing called "wage-slavery" and it is a very real and existent thing. People may not carry chains and live in a cave, at least in the western world, but their slavery is mostly a mental one.

If you don't have better arguments than some outdated marxist theories, I guess I'll be having some serious problem arguing with you.
This isn't exactly marxist theories, you know. Pure ideology is an enemy, you know. The practice of all that liberates us is what really matters. And all this is hardly outdated when capitalism is turning everything that has a meaning into a product.

You are always as an adult responsible for your actions. To do else wise is to be a slave to society.
Aren't we?

Soulforged

11-08-2005, 05:14

I don't recall writing that this riot is a model of how revolutionary violence should be. No, these people are enraged. They may be merely organised but most of their violence is blind. They destroy things, not just symbols of their oppression but anything that they find in front of them in order to provoke and show that they are not kidding. They expect to receive the respect that is owed to every human being. Instead, they are treated as scum for ages now. All their dignity has been violently removed from them in a slow and constant procedure dating many years back in time. Most of them bend their heads and continue to work in, mostly, hard and underpaid jobs. But few can no more put up with it. Being very young, often "under-age", only adds to the ferociousness of their actions, which, like in the case of burning the old lady, are pointlessly cruel and dumb.
But please don't give any metaphysical explanations of the sort: "they are evil", "they are scum", "the only solution is shooting them". People are not born violent, they are made so. These guys are out to show they deserve some respect. They have been ignored for too long and want to draw some attention at last.I thought the same as you, is good to see that that old greek democracy, at least in the idea, has not been lost up there. The real question is, getting out of topic a little, is society static or dinamic? I should say to those that think that society has to be stable for all eternity, wheter it's on it's accidents on it's very model (politic and economic), that the society will change over and over, in the same way that a paradigm, in any science, falls to give place to another. Not all was setted with the french revolution, but that spirit is not to be lost. When things are wrong again, at a huge social level, like this one (unaboidable consecuence of capitalism), it's time to change it all again, make a revolution. It might be dumb, but not human being should be forced to support that kind of life. Here people are so alienated, desperated and to this point so ignorant, that they don't even move, they accept the life that they received, in some godly way, and die miserably, it sounds strong but it's that way. Should we wait anymore time doing statistics and extending our tired social plans to people that can even use it? The answer is no.

Ha ha ha...that's so funny i can hardly comment on it. When exactly was it that you offered them those things? When were they free, when were they treated as equals or as brothers and sisters? You don't even have these things yourselves (the "regular" french) and neither does any other person living in any country, including the so-called "western democracies".Well as you know the old frase was always meant to be a fiction created over the reality. The law should act as a charade while the real owners behind conserve their power.

By the way, it's interesting that you consider yourself a socialist, rather than a "right-winger nutjob". The term "fascists" was, anyway, not appointed directly to you. However, the only "socialists" i can recall proposing totalitarian "kill'em all" solutions were in the ex-Soviet Union, and to me the Soviet Union was a fascist state with a communist facade.Sorry man but as I recall the Stalinist movement threw down all clasistic differences, fascism wants to do exactly the contrary. Of course they didn't implemented communism as it should be, but that's another question.

Regarding low-class white workers, they should be rioting too, in my opinion, as they have done so many times in the past. The reason they don't do it is that they are somewhat better off than they were in the past and they are much more integrated into the system now, than they were in the past.
The feared middle class?~;)

You're being funny again! Well, you see, there is a thing called "wage-slavery" and it is a very real and existent thing. People may not carry chains and live in a cave, at least in the western world, but their slavery is mostly a mental one.Yes the fiction.

This isn't exactly marxist theories, you know. Pure ideology is an enemy, you know. The practice of all that liberates us is what really matters. And all this is hardly outdated when capitalism is turning everything that has a meaning into a product.Oh but this final part is surely marxist. I'm with you here, like that materialism. But in any case I said that I'll be out of this thread, then I saw your comment, I just wanted to comment on it, but I'm out again.~:cheers:

bmolsson

11-08-2005, 07:00

I think the discussion has to be divided in to two parts.

1. What to do with the rioters ?
Order have to be achieved at any cost. Even if it means force. A society, democratic or not, can not allow anarchy and disorder.

2. What is the cause of the riots and who to we avoid it in the future?
This question has the opposite answer to number one. People's needs and expectations needs to be managed. Promises have to be kept. People need to be able to provide for themselves and keep their human dignity. This can not be done fast or with force.

The problem is that many bundle both question together and that will in both cases create a catastrophy......

Bulawayo

11-08-2005, 09:28

ND är svin, men Sverigedemokrat är jag. Har du något problem med det eller står du för demokrati? ~;)

Demokratin suger hårt som den ser ut idag, men istället för en vidare splittring av samhället som många nationalister sysslar med idag behövs mer konstruktiva och positiva röster. Det kan se ut som tomma ord, men jag menar det ~;)

Just A Girl

11-08-2005, 09:40

2. What is the cause of the riots and who to we avoid it in the future?

The cause As is claimed to be, (or atleast my understanding of it)

Is the Goverment Trying to be Less racist,
They do not register muslims and black people as A different race.
Now That sounds like a good idea.

but because of it they Dont asks questions like, What religion are you and which race are you exetera when You apply for work,

So when the goverment looks at its employment figures They look good,
But unfortunately Most of the Muslims and people of different races are Without employment,

But the goverment cant see this as they have no record of it,

Also It has been claimed That the police Are prejudice and Stop people of ethnic minorities More often than Any 1 els,

recently this caused two young males to flee from the authorities, and unfortunately they ran in to a power station and died,

I belive that was the straw that broke the camels back,
and began these riots,

I sympathize with the Rioters but unfortunately, their ends do not justify the means,
(something I should know all about)
And could possibly make things worse for the minorities Than they already are.

Please feel free to correct me on any or all of the things i have said,
As this is only my interpretation of the situation, and what i have been able to pice together from the media " who I do not trust any way"

Leet Eriksson

11-08-2005, 11:54

Yay ignorance, they're not Arabs they're from Africa (mostly North).

North Africa are Arabs.

Can someone be ignorant towards his own race? ~:confused:

Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe

11-08-2005, 12:00

North Africa are Arabs.

Can someone be ignorant towards his own race? ~:confused:

Kabyle may see it differently...

Louis,

Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe

11-08-2005, 12:03

Looks like France is but one of the first to fall prey to political correctness as national policy. Let's hope other nations take it as a lesson.

It's funny... Of all countries, if there is one that would be a US conservative dreams in terms of PC or affirmative action, it's France.

No such thing here :)

Tough to blame affirmative actions or PC for a situation in a country where they are not present...

Louis,

Devastatin Dave

11-08-2005, 15:33

Is one of the reasons France was so against the war in the middle east because it/France wanted to be extra sensitive to the Arabs in France?:bow:
Delicious irony served on a very cold plate.

Ser Clegane

11-08-2005, 17:47

The German news magazine "Der Spiegel" (my favourite one as some might have noticed ~;) ) has an interesting article on the riots in France in this week's issue, that is also published on their website in an English translation:

What's wrong with Europe? (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,383623,00.html)

Meneldil

11-08-2005, 18:09

Very good article. But as usual, it does not really give a solution (not that it is supposed to).

FYI, the autorities are now allowed to set up blackout if needed, and some mayors are asking for help from the army. That's a first step toward stopping the riots, but that won't solve the problems. There will still be violence in these suburbs, there will be even more racism toward migrants than before, and the gap between 'them' and 'the French' will be even bigger, radical islam influence will grow even more and in the end, we're screwed.

Brenus

11-08-2005, 22:59

“What is the cause of the riots and who to we avoid it in the future”:
The causes are various.
But before to start, I want to say that, each time I go back to France my friends and family tell me the exasperation of the low middle classes.
This government cancelled all subsidies to youth organisations, destroyed the welfare system, and cancelled taxes for the rich, sell all the French national Companies paid by the money of the French tax payers (SNCF, EDF, GDF etc) to his friends, ignored the will of the electors and has the deep disdain for the French in general… They dismantle all the police of proximity, fired the Social Workers, put these area in complete mess and they fainted to be surprised.
Now, the explanations given in the British media aren’t accurate. The riots aren’t racially motivated; it is not the Whites against the rest (not like in UK today, Blacks against Islamists) but youngsters against police…
It isn’t religious; no mosques destroyed even if some Churches did. Which I do not care, more useful building could be build, or parking spots…
It is a classic example of social and economical riot, a Jacquerie more than 1989.

I do not sympathise with the rioters… They burn their neighbours’ cars, not the one of the ministers, and avoid carefully damaging the drugs dealers’ Mercedes…:boxing: :boxing:

AntiochusIII

11-09-2005, 04:17

This has gone way too far. It's spreading into most, if not virtually all, of France, and starts to get into Belgium and Germany now. The army needs to act: short-term control has to be established, lest the rights of the lawful citizens of France be threatened further. The case is simple here in this part: if you break the law against the government, you might still be justified as a case for liberty, but if you start seriously threatening the guaranteed rights of your fellow citizens, even their lives, you are a goner. They can shoot you in the defense of others. Period.

Times like these makes one understand, even if not advocate, why some people embraced fascism almost a century before. Bad times demand extreme measures, yet, with every extreme measures come dangerous side effects and the double-edged nature of it all.

Those rioters, I say, are scum. Drug-dealers and gangsters deserve no mercy; they are not the peasants, who are now trapped with utterly ruined reputation in burning neighborhoods because of the rioters' actions, and with the increased danger of death, injury, loss of property, and the rape of their daughters by those gangsters...

The next step should be a hard-fought reconciliation combined with the assault on radical Islam and forces of organized crime. Turn a crisis into an opportunity, for the crisis is already there. France would soon need a real leader it lacked for so long to do these kinds of things. In fact, France need a real leader right now, be it a Napoleon, a president, or a Martin Luther King of the Arabs.

Strike For The South

11-09-2005, 04:21

Louis this is insane!!!! Now would be a great time to use your powers for good if only once:bow: honestly shoot the bastards they have had there fun playing poor minority revolutionary. Give them 12 hours and if they do not comply. shoot them

Fragony

11-09-2005, 09:38

I say it is just miscommunication. We totally screwed up when we explained the benefits of a well-done multicultural society.

Red Harvest

11-09-2005, 17:38

Redleg

11-09-2005, 18:28

Geoffrey S

11-09-2005, 18:31

Well they do have their version of George Bush in office. To bad they did not get a handle on the rioting by the 2 or 3 day.
More than one, no?

Redleg

11-09-2005, 18:33

More than one, no?

Even the best of circumstance most governments would not have control of the riot until the 2nd Day - unless they were prepared for it. And in this case we can all see that France was not prepared for a riot of this nature.

Geoffrey S

11-09-2005, 18:36

Even the best of circumstance most governments would not have control of the riot until the 2nd Day - unless they were prepared for it. And in this case we can all see that France was not prepared for a riot of this nature.
Should have been a little clearer in quoting. I meant more than one George Bush type.

Redleg

11-09-2005, 18:39

Should have been a little clearer in quoting. I meant more than one George Bush type.
Yep there is definelty more then just one or two that fit the same profile.

Grey_Fox

11-09-2005, 18:43

I guess you could start hanging people from lampposts and put a couple of squads of troops with armoured fighting vehicles at every corner...

Crazed Rabbit

11-09-2005, 18:48

Here's an article that might be enlightening (no login or registration required):
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-11_9_05_TB.html

It's by the fellow who wrote The West's Last Chance, in which he predicted an attack upon London by Islamic extremists, and Muslims demanding the removal of art that offended them, before they happened.

Some telling quotes from Islamic leaders:

As Mr. Belien reports, look what a typical radical Muslim leader, Dyab Abou Jahjah, the leader of the Brussels-based Arab European League says: "We reject integration when it leads to assimilation. I don't believe in a host country. We are at home here and whatever we consider our culture to be also belongs to our chosen country. I'm in my country, not the country of the Westerners."

Or consider the statement of a German radical Islamist that I recounted in my book (based on a National Public Radio news story broadcast): "Germany is an Islamic country. Islam is in the home, in schools. Germans will be outnumbered. We [Muslims] will say what we want. We'll live how we want. It's outrageous that Germans demand we speak their language. Our children will have our language, our laws, our culture ("The West's Last Chance," page 75).

...

It is about radical Islamist self-confidence and contempt for the West. And, it is about Western weakness.

I have to agree with Red Harvest on this: crush the rioters and fix any problems that may exist later.

Crazed Rabbit

Redleg

11-09-2005, 18:49

I guess you could start hanging people from lampposts and put a couple of squads of troops with armoured fighting vehicles at every corner...

Unfortunately they just might have to do that to stop the riots. When it first started I was attempting to figure out way it was happening. Now its gone beyond why is it happening - to can the government of France resolve this issue or will they continue to allow the violence to continue?

French Riviera City of Nice Imposes Curfew
By D'ARCY DORAN, Associated Press Writer
32 minutes ago

PARIS - Authorities in the French Riviera city of Nice imposed a curfew on minors and authorized police raids Wednesday, and the nation's interior minister said the government should deport the 120 foreigners convicted of crimes during the wave of rioting and unrest.

Looters and vandals defied a state of emergency with attacks on superstores, a newspaper warehouse and a subway station.

The unrest began Oct. 27 and has grown into a nationwide insurrection by disillusioned suburban youths who complain of discrimination and unemployment. Although many of the French-born children of Arab and black African immigrants are Muslim, police say the violence is not being driven by Islamic groups.

The extraordinary 12-day state of emergency, which began at midnight Tuesday, covered Paris, its suburbs and more than 30 other French cities from the Mediterranean to the border with Germany and to Rouen in the north _ an indication of how widespread arson, riots and other unrest have become.

The measures imposed in Nice also require some bars to close from 10 p.m. to 5 a.m. for the next 10 days, the regional government said.

Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, who previously inflamed passions by referring to troublemakers as "scum," said 120 foreigners have been convicted for roles in the violence, and he called on local authorities to expel them.

"I have asked regional prefects to expel foreigners who were convicted _ whether they have proper residency papers or not _ without delay," he said during a National Assembly session.

In the past, Sarkozy has vowed that France would expel Muslim prayer leaders who preach hatred and strip them of their citizenship. More than three dozen imams whose preachings are violent or do not conform with French values have been expelled since 2003, he said last month.

The emergency decree invoked a 50-year-old security law that dates to France's colonial war in Algeria that empowers officials to put troublemakers under house arrest, ban or limit the movement of people and vehicles, confiscate weapons and close public spaces where gangs gather.

It also paved the way for curfews in areas where officials feel they are needed. By midday Wednesday, only a few municipalities and regions imposed them; Paris had not.

In Normandy, the Seine-Maritime department announced curfews until Tuesday for minors in four towns, including Rouen and Le Havre.

During late Tuesday through early Wednesday, youths torched 617 vehicles, down from 1,173 a night earlier, national police spokesman Patrick Hamon said. Incidents were reported in 116 towns, down from 226.

Police made 280 arrests, raising the total to 1,830 since the violence erupted 13 nights ago.

National Police Chief Michel Gaudin said an additional 1,000 officers were deployed overnight, bringing the total to 11,500. He attributed the drop in attacks to police sweeps and cooperation from community groups.

"The arrests are bearing fruit," Interior Ministry spokesman Franck Louvrier said. "It's clear there has been a significant drop, but we must persevere."

Christian Gaillard de Lavernee, head of the national civil security brigade, said firefighters responded to 30 percent fewer calls overnight than the previous day. In some towns, concerned residents have banded together to keep overnight watch on public buildings and to patrol their neighborhoods, armed only with fire extinguishers.

Riot police fired tear gas to disperse youths throwing gasoline bombs in the southwestern city of Toulouse, and rioters exploded an unoccupied bus with Molotov cocktails in the town of Bassens, near Bordeaux. No injuries were reported.

Officials were forced to shut down the southern city of Lyon's subway system after a firebomb exploded in a station late Tuesday, a regional government spokesman said. No one was hurt. Transport officials said bus and subway service will be halted at 7 p.m. each day at least until Sunday as a precaution.

Arsonists also set fire to a warehouse used by the Nice-Matin newspaper in Grasse, national police spokesman Patrick Reydy said. Youths looted and set fire to a furniture and electronics store and an adjacent carpet store in Arras, in the north, he said.

Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, detailing the measures to parliament Tuesday, said riot police faced "determined individuals, structured gangs, organized criminality." Police say rioters have been using mobile phone text messages and the Internet to organize arson attacks.

The northern city of Amiens, central Orleans and Savigny-sur-Orge, and the Essonne region south of the capital were imposing curfews for minors, who must be accompanied by adults at night. Two cars burned in Amiens overnight despite the curfew, compared with six a night earlier, police said.

Curfew violators face up to two months in jail and a $4,400 fine, the Justice Ministry said. Minors face one month in jail.

The state-of-emergency law was drawn up to quell unrest in Algeria during its war of independence from France. It was last used in December 1984 by the Socialist government of President Francois Mitterrand against rioting in the French Pacific Ocean territory of New Caledonia.

The recent unrest started as a localized riot in a northeast Paris suburb angry over the accidental deaths of two teenagers of Mauritanian and Tunisian descent who were electrocuted while hiding from police in a power substation.

Seventy-three percent of respondents in a poll published Wednesday in the daily newspaper Le Parisien said they agreed with the curfew.

Edit: Forgot the link

http://www.comcast.net/news/international/index.jsp?cat=INTERNATIONAL&fn=/2005/11/09/260493.html

Fragony

11-09-2005, 18:52

I guess you could start hanging people from lampposts and put a couple of squads of troops with armoured fighting vehicles at every corner...

Actually, we could. And should if you ask me, peel them thinly and they may have some use as motorsuits. Only one way to counter their primitive rage and that is striking back so hard that they are shaking for years to come. It is the only way because as it will only get worse if you keep making consesions ; they will keep demanding more, aided by their leftist allies who just cannot give up their utopian dream of a multicultural society.

Meneldil

11-09-2005, 20:10

Riots were less violence last night. Hopefully it will stop soon, though I still think we should just have sent the army 2 days after the riots started and allowed the soldier to shoot any single people throwing the tiniest thing.

Anyway, here's something that happened to me, and led me to think we're in some kind of deep sh*t.
I was in the bus, and there was 5 or 6 arab girls in the back of the bus, who litteraly spent their time screaming things like "Sarkozy, son of a b*tch", "Frenchmen, we f*ck you" and "France is a fascist country". And when I say screaming, I really mean it.
It was kinda disturbing, so I looked at the girls : around 18 year olds, dressed with really expensive classy clothes. No, they were not some ghetto-girls who grown in a poor suburb, they were middle-class girls with clothes a lot of people could never buy, who lived in a fairly wealthy city with lot of social buildings : 5 schools, 2 colleges, a lot of sport fields, libraries, and everything young people could dream about.

I went away, listening to my Ipod and reading my book, but at some point, an old woman went to the back of the bus and asked them to stop. As I expected, it turned out quite badly. 2 of the girls went mad, and started to insult the woman. It went from "I'm going to break your face into pieces", to "What do you know about God ? My God will burn you !", and let's not forget the "What are you going to do ? Call the cops ? I f*ck the cops and I f*ck your laws. Ooooh, I'm going to piss in my pants". It lasted like that for about 10 minutes, and I seriously thought they were going to attack the woman, who had absolutely nothing to answer, and whose main fault was to ask a few idiots to stop screaming. And I swear I'm not making this up. This is the first time I see someone spitting on my country, on its values and on its history.

Now I'm asking to the good old "that's France/Western World/Capitalism fault" crew, what should we do with them ? Find them a job ? Allow them to do whatever they want ?

Mongoose

11-09-2005, 20:14

It's your fault for...ummm...not...errrrrr ~:confused:

Well, i'm out of ideas. I think i'm going ot go look over the last 500 years of french history untill i find something bad...

~D

Fragony

11-09-2005, 20:15

I went away, listening to my Ipod and reading my book, but at some point, an old woman went to the back of the bus and asked them to stop. As I expected, it turned out quite badly. 2 of the girls went mad, and started to insult the woman. It went from "I'm going to break your face into pieces", to "What do you know about God ? My God will burn you !", and let's not forget the "What are you going to do ? Call the cops ? I f*ck the cops and I f*ck your laws. Ooooh, I'm going to piss in my pants". It lasted like that for about 10 minutes, and I seriously thought they were going to attack the woman, who had absolutely nothing to answer, and whose main fault was to ask a few idiots to stop screaming. And I swear I'm not making this up. This is the first time I see someone spitting on my country, on its values and on its history.

Why didn't you help that old lady? THAT is why this is happening.

Meneldil

11-09-2005, 20:15

It is shocking to see how utterly inept the French have been in responding to this. When you've got some clown throwing Molotov cocktails at people and setting things on fire, the answer is simple: put a round through his head and any others that don't seem to "get it." Re-establish security. Protest is one thing, violent and dangerous attacks is another. This isn't protest, it is open revolt.

You have no idea what french medias are. No channel is actually directly blaming the rioters, and the good old ultra-leftist, crypto communist Canal+ is in fact blaming the governement and the average (of course racist and fascist) frenchmen who refused to accept the muslim into our society.

When the governement allowed mayors to impose blackouts, they started to use buzzwords like 'fascist policy' or 'colonial policy'.

Why didn't you help that old lady? THAT is why this is happening.

Exactly, I have absolutely no excuses. Furthermore, the bus was full of people, and only a few reacted. That's how it goes usually. Yet, I don't think the crow would have let them attacking the woman without doing anything.

Kagemusha

11-09-2005, 20:23

I think if someone doesnt respect you or insults you and your values,he or she doesnt deserve any respect either. Everything starts from small things.If a certain people understand they can do anything without facing consecuenses,some of them will do it.There are many people in this world who are always waiting to let them own fear turn into rage if they get good excuse to do so.I just wonder why nobody didnt stand up and defend the old lady against those girls.
About the situation in France,if the police cant handle the riots,call in the army.They are supposed to defend their country against any threat outside or domestic.:bow:

Fragony

11-09-2005, 20:41

Exactly, I have absolutely no excuses. Furthermore, the bus was full of people, and only a few reacted. That's how it goes usually. Yet, I don't think the crow would have let them attacking the woman without doing anything.

I am sure our resident shrink can confirm, the more people, the lesser the chance someone will act as everyone is staring at eachother for what to do. A few years ago a girl drowned in the channels in Rotterdam before the very eyes of hundreds of people, I would love to claim myselve being the one jumping in but that is probably wishfull thinking from my part.

But you guys will have to act, and act fast because this is spreading to both belgium and germany at the moment.

Adrian II

11-09-2005, 20:45

This is the first time I see someone spitting on my country, on its values and on its history.Imagine being of Arab origin and being regularly subjected to such treatment by Frenchmen, with the acclaim and support of the authorities, politicians and the police. Maybe then you will understand some of the rage behind the riots; the real issue is that most of the sorry characters who have made it into the limelights actually want to belong in France.

And please don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about. I speak your language and argot, I have been coming and going in France for the past thirty years. I have slept in the subway when that was still allowed and also in the rich lawyers homes in the Rue Caulaincourt (because I was 'doing' their wives and daughters, in case you wonder). I have seen Beaubourg being built and I have seen police shooting indiscriminately at black street sellers in the first year of Mitterrand, that sorry excuse for a socialist. I know all the ins and outs, man, of Paris and of the sleepy towns of la profonde. I know how pieds-noirs, resistance veterans and Vichy-veterans are treated before and after elections (when their votes are no longer needed). I know which political parties have been paid by which third world dictators. I know how les blacks are feted as cult heroes as long as the official lights are on and beaten up in alleys as soon as those lights go out.

And I know what happens when the stuff hits the fan and half of the French work themselves into a frenzy and become law and order obsessed little parachutistes. I thought you belonged to the other half, but I am not so sure anymore.

Frankly I feel much more disturbed by the law and order reflexes, the refusal to think and the incapacity to listen of the French political class and a part of the general public than I am by any sort of islamic take-over or such nonsense.

The barbarians are already within the European gates. They have been there all along and they are awaiting their next chance.

Fragony

11-09-2005, 20:52

Adrian II

11-09-2005, 20:59

And the lord said, take this purse for it is my property.Nah, you're probably broke again. ~;p

Fragony

11-09-2005, 21:05

Nah, you're probably broke again. ~;p

Well the one that said that a boat is a hole in the water in which you throw in money did have a point ~D

Adrian II

11-09-2005, 21:08

Well the one that said that a boat is a hole in the water in which you throw in money did have a point ~DSkipper! :bow:

At least you're not drowning in fake statistics

Red Harvest

11-09-2005, 21:09

When a group comes in like this, and decides to use violence like this and is attacking the citizenry...the answers become clear. Tight immigration, deportation of all those identified as part of the violence. Shoot on sight for these type of attacks.

They want to be barbarians, let them do it elsewhere, in this world or the next.

Devastatin Dave

11-09-2005, 21:12

Imagine being of Arab origin and being regularly subjected to such treatment by Frenchmen, with the acclaim and support of the authorities, politicians and the police.
LOL, the French treat everyone like shit. It does not give these people the right to riot. Get your head out of your little leftist fantasy world.~:rolleyes:

Fragony

11-09-2005, 21:13

Skipper! :bow:

At least you're not drowning in fake statistics

Well as an ex sailor you could have told me that the water is about 38 centimeters lower then it is at summer, and spared me 300 euro oh damnya. The company did make up for it, I could send some pics but I would probably get me banned, and you would have to miss out on my fairly balanced views ~D

Adrian II

11-09-2005, 21:15

LOL, the French treat everyone like shit. It does not give these people the right to riot. Get your head out of your little leftist fantasy world.~:rolleyes:Speaking of reality, when was your last visit to Clichy-sur-Bois? :mellow:

Adrian II

11-09-2005, 21:17

Well as an ex sailor you could have told me that the water is about 38 centimeters lower then it is at summer (..)Inside or outside your strijkijzer? LOL!

And you are right, you do provide a certain balance to Dave's views. ~:eek:

Fragony

11-09-2005, 21:28

strijkijzer?

Die. Never come between a man and his strijkijze- oh damn you win ~D She is called 'Drammer' but she will be renamed 'Strander', gods way of telling you you have made a mistake.

water + floating stuff = fragony - money

so that would make, ehhhhhhhh

god I hate math, why did I buy that thing ~D

Adrian II

11-09-2005, 21:31

god I hate math, why did I buy that thing ~DI have this bridge in Medemblik I could sell you...

Tribesman

11-09-2005, 21:50

When you've got some clown throwing Molotov cocktails at people and setting things on fire, the answer is simple: put a round through his head and any others that don't seem to "get it." Re-establish security. Protest is one thing, violent and dangerous attacks is another. This isn't protest, it is open revolt.

Great idea , there was a nice little example of that sort of attitude just over 30 years ago . Teach them a lesson they will never forget eh ?
I wonder how many billions in wasted money and how many thousands of wasted lives that cost .
Oh and they are still going through the courts 33 years later to see who made the balls up in taking that action .
The trouble with murdering people because "they don't seem to get it" is that a hell of a lot more people get exactly the opposite idea that you want them to get .

[B][LOL, the French treat everyone like shit. It does not give these people the right to riot. Get your head out of your little leftist fantasy world./B]
Whereas if it was Americans who were pissed at the governmnet and the police they wouldn't be burning things they would be shooting them , as that is their right with their amended constipation .

Meneldil

11-09-2005, 21:53

Imagine being of Arab origin and being regularly subjected to such treatment by Frenchmen, with the acclaim and support of the authorities, politicians and the police. Maybe then you will understand some of the rage behind the riots; the real issue is that most of the sorry characters who have made it into the limelights actually want to belong in France.

Well, I guess you don't really care about how life's going into my 15k inhabitants city, but let me tell you no policeman ever arrested someone for being black or arab. My former lycée is opened to all ethinicities. There are even some special classes for people who are failing the common studies.
There's no low standard insalubrious HLM, no neo-nazi cops arresting people depending on their skin color. There's a poor neighborood, filled white whites, and a few arabs and black families. There's an important Cambodian community which causes absolutely no problem. Why are the Cambodians good and respectful citizens, while 70% of the trouble are caused by the arab community ? They aren't white, they came after a colonial war in which France burnt their country, bombed innocents, they got low paid jobs,they were sent in 3rd zone cities, but they're actually well integrated, well educated...
I seriously think we've done our best to integrate anyone into our society, yet these girls, although they looked integrated and enlightened, hate us, claim their god will burn us. What can we do here ?

And please don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about. I speak your language and argot, I have been coming and going in France for the past thirty years. I have slept in the subway when that was still allowed and also in the rich lawyers homes in the Rue Caulaincourt (because I was 'doing' their wives and daughters, in case you wonder). I have seen Beaubourg being built and I have seen police shooting indiscriminately at black street sellers in the first year of Mitterrand, that sorry excuse for a socialist. I know all the ins and outs, man, of Paris and of the sleepy towns of la profonde. I know how pieds-noirs, resistance veterans and Vichy-veterans are treated before and after elections (when their votes are no longer needed). I know which political parties have been paid by which third world dictators. I know how les blacks are feted as cult heroes as long as the official lights are on and beaten up in alleys as soon as those lights go out.

There are sure a lot of issues. But understand me. I'm 19 years old. I don't feel I'm responsible for colonisation, for the Algerian war, for the torture. I didn't vote for Mitterand. I did not ask our previous Presidents to allow massive immigration. I did not ask them to put all the migrants into ghetto-cities. I did not ask them to set up a crappy integration system.
Now, we have a group of people rioting, claiming they can't find jobs, can't do that, can't do this, are too poors to do that. That's not surprising, knowing the social and economical gap existing between low and upper classes in France. Yet, oddly, although there's a crapload of people who have good reasons to riot, the rioters are actually people who are between 12 and 22 year olds, who did not fight during the Algerian War, who got access to a decent education system, who never had to find a job, who barely speak french and who don't give a f*ck about this country. And what are they doing ? Burning other poors' cars or schools, randomly molesting people in the street.
I *admit* a few people might actually have rioted because they are unemployed, or because they felt insulted by Sarkozy's speech. I *admit* life in Clichy-sous-Bois must be a real pain.
But what the hell, what are 14 year old scums doing here ? What are 18 year old wealthy b*tches doing here ? What are people claiming we insulted their prophet doing here ? People feel insulted when someone call them scums, and guess what, they prove they are scums by acting as such.

And I know what happens when the stuff hits the fan and half of the French work themselves into a frenzy and become law and order obsessed little parachutistes. I thought you belonged to the other half, but I am not so sure anymore.

Your reasoning here is :
I don't like racist rioters = I'm a fascist ?
I don't like people who burn cars, schools and eventually, people = I'm a racist ?
I don't like people who spit on the few things I actually respect in my country = I'm a nationalist right-winger nutjob ?

Frankly I feel much more disturbed by the law and order reflexes, the refusal to think and the incapacity to listen of the French political class and a part of the general public than I am by any sort of islamic take-over or such nonsense.

I can't seriously understand you. A tiny minority of them *may* have reasons to riots, so we just wait until they calm down ? We send them flowers ? We politely ask them not to riot anymore, cause that's not really nice of them ? We tell the people whose cars and homes are getting toasted that the riot is legitimate and that they should just go to hell and forget about their home and the car they bought after hours and hours of hard work ?

As for the Islamic nonsense, I had the same opinion, until I heard what I heard today. If girls dressed like the average 18 year old girl can say "My God will burn you", there's a serious problem IMO.

For years, I've been an anti-racist guy. 3 years ago, a friend a I worked voluntarily for SOS-Racisme. But now, I'm tired that each time I or a friend get molested, the agressor is an arab. I'm tired that each time I hear about drug dealing, the dealer is an arab. I'm tired by the way 12 year olds arab scums show absolutely no respect for anything, will call a girl 'bitch' because she's good looking, will make fun or retard people because they think they're smarter. I'm tired by the tone they use to sound more gang-ish, the way they'll reply "C'est bon !" each time they're told something they don't like. I'm tired by the way they'll all sit at the back of the bus and make fun of everyone who don't look gang-ish.
Right now, I'm tired by the fact I'm surprised each time I meet an arab who doesn't look like some rap singer, who speak french correctly or who bother about his studies.

Devastatin Dave

11-09-2005, 21:56

[B][LOL, the French treat everyone like shit. It does not give these people the right to riot. Get your head out of your little leftist fantasy world./B]
Whereas if it was Americans who were pissed at the governmnet and the police they wouldn't be burning things they would be shooting them , as that is their right with their amended constipation .
And how many times has this sort of thing, at this intensity, has happened in the US recently?
How you could twist this into a slam on the United States just shows your moronic view of the world and your utter hatred for my country. How about commenting on the issue the thread addresses instead of spreading your usual excrement.

Red Harvest

11-09-2005, 21:58

The trouble with murdering people because "they don't seem to get it" is that a hell of a lot more people get exactly the opposite idea that you want them to get.
It isn't murder. It is quelling a revolt. When they are committing a violent felony, their life is in danger. It is their own illegal act putting them in the position. Only a complete boob would call that murder.

Devastatin Dave

11-09-2005, 22:01

Only a complete boob would call that murder.
Well, there you go.:bow:

LeftEyeNine

11-09-2005, 22:08

I'm rather convinced that the riots in France were being organized for some time.

The Turkish interviewer was told that it was not a Muslim riot in France as well. The guy wanted to be a French and not be discriminated in anyway. I want job was the other reason I heard.

Every country has such densities, however it blew up in France. I really think that this was an organized one. If not, these guys should have been discriminated in a Medieval Heretic way that such a riot took place. However I believe, our democracy tutors did treat them well..

Tribesman

11-09-2005, 22:15

It isn't murder. It is quelling a revolt.
Explain this bit then
put a round through his head and any others that don't seem to "get it."
Don't seem to get it ....get what , the fact that the police will kill you to teach people a lesson . Hey the French did that in the past , as did the British and countless other countries , it doesn't work .
In fact it turns out to be completely counterproductive .

Edit because some people just are not even worth a response

Brenus

11-09-2005, 22:40

“LOL, the French treat everyone like shit.”
That is probably because France is the most racist state in the world that the biggest Muslim population in Europe is in France, and the biggest Jewish community in Europe lives in France. They like to be excluded, marginalised and ostracised.~:)
Unfortunately, the answer is a little bit more complicated… The riot started because a social economical problems.
BUT, I don’t think these rioters know what real poverty is. They burn the schools they didn’t intend to go. They blame others for their own incapacity to be creative and to work hard to escape from where they belong. They do not respect their parents, their faith or others social barriers.
I come from a low level of the French society. My ancestors were soldiers (by the way, most of my comrades in arm and NCO were from immigration Portuguese, Algerians, Moroccans, Austrians etc), farmers or workers.
My Grand-father was a Unionist when the police shoot for real on the crowd in 1933-1936. And he was not black or Arabs (by the way, the Chinese and Vietnamese aren’t in the riots, and they are for the immigration too). The police always work for the power… In 1954, the strikes were resolved by machine guns shooting against Renault workers… so give a break with this… It is not in France that people disappeared and the political opponents finished and are tortured in jail but in Algeria, Tunisia, Congo, etc. It is not in France that you are jailed if you eat during the Ramadan but in Algeria.~D

I was aware when I was 16 of the social “determism” ~:confused: (not an English word, but I can’t find the good one) and I found my way. I finished my baccalaureate, joined the army (5 years) then went back to university for 8 years. I am the only one of the 6 children to do it, but I did it. Yes, I had to work in night shift and week-end and during holidays. Yes, it was hard, but you know what you have to do if you want to succeed to escape from factories and unemployment.
As said by Meneldil, most of the pseudo revolutionaries have nice clothes and probably have Ipod and others luxuries…~D
But, as I said, the French have enough of this government which give to the rich, which ignored the populace, which cut all social expenses and want the “petits gens” poorer.
And these people are French. Give them that. The ancestors fought for that, came in France to work and did it. Some gave their lives for France. So, immigration isn’t the problem. The problem is the alienation of the workers (and most of their parents are or were workers) and the real frustration born from this situation. I know it, I had it. I remember what it is when you live in a perpetual humiliation.
Now, some “petite bourgeoises” want to be seen as revolutionaries… In 2 weeks, they will come back in a normal behaviour and will smoke, drink alcohol, were short skirts, kiss their boyfriends in the street and won’t wear the hidjab, protected from the so-called murder of honour or ritual mutilations by the police and the French laws they spat on yesterday…~:cheers:
And the car’s insurance will rise… Again~:)