[vid] iraqi sniper shoots at coalition soldiers

[solypsist]

backroom users looked to have behaved themselved when i posted this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=55946) so now here's something from the other side.

i considered this vid for a very long time before finally deciding to post it and i hope this isn't a mistake. i'm hoping that you guys are mature enough to handle it. if i'm wrong then at least we all know where the line is drawn on this subject.

please think before downloading this video, it shows no blood but is graphic. 24 mb, 15 min.

/edit: link removed. show's over, folks. someone has a problem with this.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

From the opening few shots he seems to be a pretty good shot.

[Byzantine Prince]

It has a good soundtrack.

There was one that had the crosshairs on it, what was that?

There was also one where this soldier get's shot and there are kids everywhere and another soldier bhind him who does nothing, isn't even bothering to hurry his footsteps. ~:eek:

[PanzerJaeger]

i considered this vid for a very long time before finally deciding to post it and i hope this isn't a mistake.

Why did you post it?

[Beirut]

What a waste of American lives. Very sad.

[Leet Eriksson]

I can't download the video, something about shared ip adress or whatnot, can someone send it via email if they can bother?

[Radier]

Just propaganda. The sniper is in fact several snipers from what I have heard. In the end he claims to be responsible for killing around 200 western troops which I highly doubt. That would be around 10% of all the coulition deaths. I think that in many cases the troops only are lightly wounded due to their bodyarmour. Some cases though seems more serious.

[solypsist]

the video was scrutinized on another forum and so far the consensus is that most are all limb or nonlethal shots.

[Adrian II]

(..) i considered this vid for a very long time before finally deciding to post it and i hope this isn't a mistake.I hope you are not shooting yourself in the foot, pun intended. This looks to me like an islamist propaganda video, pure and unadulterated. In principle one should not post such links without any further qualification, just like any link to racist websites.

The vid reminds me of some of the footage I have seen from Chechnyan and Kashmiri islamist propaganda videos. Same style, same content, only the language is different.

We will need the help of our Arab-speaking members to translate the voice-over, the logo and several other titles shown in Arabic.

Some of the footage seems fake - the death of occupation soldiers is only suggested, or the responsibility of the sniper is suggested in cases where the cause of death could be entirely different.

So you considered the video for a long time. Do you know anything about the producers, the retailers, the site that first made it available? I always want to know what channels these people use to spread their propaganda. I do not doubt your honest intention, Solypsist, but it would be good if we worked this out together with Arab-speakers in the forum.
:bow:

[scooter_the_shooter]

I didnt see the vid. But if this is about "juba the sniper" it is flase.

[Husar]

I can't download the video, something about shared ip adress or whatnot, can someone send it via email if they can bother?
I can, just PM me your email address.


the video was scrutinized on another forum and so far the consensus is that most are all limb or nonlethal shots.
I´m not an expert but some of the later shots in the video look pretty deadly to me.
And concerning this being a promotional video, I´d say it works only for very few people on earth, at least I really hope so.

[Leet Eriksson]

I hope you are not shooting yourself in the foot, pun intended. This looks to me like an islamist propaganda video, pure and unadulterated. In principle one should not post such links without any further qualification, just like any link to racist websites.

The vid reminds me of some of the footage I have seen from Chechnyan and Kashmiri islamist propaganda videos. Same style, same content, only the language is different.

We will need the help of our Arab-speaking members to translate the voice-over, the logo and several other titles shown in Arabic.

Some of the footage seems fake - the death of occupation soldiers is only suggested, or the responsibility of the sniper is suggested in cases where the cause of death could be entirely different.

So you considered the video for a long time. Do you know anything about the producers, the retailers, the site that first made it available? I always want to know what channels these people use to spread their propaganda. I do not doubt your honest intention, Solypsist, but it would be good if we worked this out together with Arab-speakers in the forum.
:bow:

I'd be glad to help, Husar will provide the video and i'll translate what i can understand. Its most probably propaganda to raise morale to other would be terrorists.

[Kurando]

S-to the-O-to the-LY;

That was some pretty wild stuff old buddy...

K-man.

[solypsist]

well think of this as something for discussion - and in these times i think propoganda especially deserves scrutiny. i didn't post it for entertainment value (i couldnt finish it the first time around and only completed it to be sure before i posted it here).

while the video is propoganda, this is no joke. but in a forum where users talk about the middle east in abstract terms, i felt this vid might be somewhat (to misuse the word) enlightening.



I hope you are not shooting yourself in the foot, pun intended. This looks to me like an islamist propaganda video, pure and unadulterated. In principle one should not post such links without any further qualification, just like any link to racist websites.

[Hurin_Rules]

Interesting to see the war from both perspectives.

[scooter_the_shooter]

I don't want to down load the vid and have big bro wacthin' me. So can you guys tell me something about it.


What kind of guns is it, If he has an ak47 or sks(the most popular guns in iraq) and is shooting 300 yards this is fake neither of those is any where near accurate enough for that.

How far is he shooting?

[Meneldil]

/mode fascist wannabe on

Well, to bad he only hurts them. Hopefully, they won't recover from their wounds.

mode fascist wannabe off\

Well, quite a pity. This is crappy propaganda, but still, it's frightening and disturbing.

[Husar]

I'd be glad to help, Husar will provide the video and i'll translate what i can understand. Its most probably propaganda to raise morale to other would be terrorists.
It just takes some time to upload at an upload-rate of 196kb/sec.~;) ~D
Will send it as soon as it´s up.

[Adrian II]

I didnt see the vid. But if this is about "juba the sniper" it is flase.Apparently it is about Juba the sniper (http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1542824,00.html), a mythic hero of Baghdad insurgents, or at least that is what the recurrent caption says. He is supposed to use a Tobuk sniper rifle (an Iraqi rifle based on the Kalashnikov and fitted with a long barrel and muzzle brake, using 7.62mm Kalashnikov cartridges). He fires from rooftops overlooking supply routes, and despite his reputation he apparently does fire twice in one of the clips.

What Sura is the muezzin singing in the beginning? What are the (repeated) songs about? Is the claim of 208 victims only for 1426 (the year 2005-06 in the islamic calendar)? BTW he does not claim 208 dead, the number given at the vid's end seems to be a total of 'incidents'. Including misses, obviously. And some apparent 'hits' could be the result of clever editing and nothing else.

More stuff about Juba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juba_(sniper))

EDIT
Hang on. If these images are real, 'our sniper' does not fire from rooftops at all, does he?

SECOND EDIT
This footage seems to be part of a concerted campaign (http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/IraqCoverage/story?id=766276&page=1)to raise or train more insurgent snipers. There are training manuals circulating and the insurgents have set up their first interactive website for the purpose. American troops have been handed a document with information about these new tactics:


The document contains information from pro-insurgency Web sites, translated by Pentagon analysts, that instructs would-be snipers to target U.S. and coalition military commanders, officers and pilots because replacing them "may take two to four years and cost more than $500,000 to put someone through the famous West Point."

Snipers are also directed to target U.S. special forces because, according to the site, "they are very stupid because they have a Rambo complex, thinking that they are the best in the world. Don't be arrogant like them."

Here is one part of the training manual (http://abcnews.go.com/images/International/iraqi_insurgents_revised.pdf) in .pdf form. Can anyone tell if this manual is any good, militarywise?

[Meneldil]

Well, he's seems to be almost as good as Legolas ~D

[Husar]

Hey Adrian, I tried sending faisal that video for over an hour now, but it seems all those email providers can´t handle the 26MB size.~:handball:
Now I come back and see you already found out most of it.

Well, I want to give some more thoughts about it.
First you seem to be right, the videos are pretty clearly made from a lying position somewhere on the ground, looks like he is lower than his victims.
Concerning the two shots in one case, maybe he was aiming the second shot at one of the soldiers who tried to help his first target(I still hope the poor guy survived). Now concerning his "success", he hit one guy just somewhere at the lower leg(looked pretty harmless), another soldier held his stomach but didn´t seem to have much problems to take that hit, while another one was hit similar and looked pretty dead afterwards. Yet another one is thrown backwards by the bullet(the one where he shoots twice I think).
I have never fired any weapon myself, but I wonder if the same gun can have so many different results. Despite that, I think making a "commercial" with the death of people is even more sick than fighting the american soldiers in itself.

[scooter_the_shooter]

Juba claims to have killed TWO marine scout snipers in one day. I don't believe that one bit.


Hmmm Never heard of a tobuk, Hopefully one of our guys pops ol' juba a few times with a barret.



have never fired any weapon myself, but I wonder if the same gun can have so many different results


I think so. When I go deer hunting even if you hit them good they still run pretty far. Some times they don't go far at all.

[Tribesman]

don't want to down load the vid and have big bro wacthin' me.
Are you scared of your government ?
If you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear .~D ~D ~D

Hang on. If these images are real, 'our sniper' does not fire from rooftops at all, does he?

Rooftop snipers are for the movies , he or they would be too exposed and easily isolated .

[Kurando]

...the videos are pretty clearly made from a lying position somewhere on the ground, looks like he is lower than his victims.


I'd agree with that... The only thing is that there is nothing to say that the videographer and the sniper were in the same position at all. The Sniper could have been on a rooftop and the lurker with the video camera could have been observing the general target area from another nearby location (looks in some cases to be a parked car)

I'm not sure what to think of all this... If he was perhaps a Muslim vet of the Serb/Croatia war he might be as good as they say. I know they had a lot of prolific snipers during their conflict. Some of whom I believe were ex-members of the Yugoslav olympic shooting team.

Or, it could just be a bunch of nonsense...

Either way, because of their training, I'd have to bet that the Coalition snipers would be at least equal to this Juba guy + personally I hope they waste him.

[scooter_the_shooter]

don't want to down load the vid and have big bro wacthin' me.
Are you scared of your government ?
If you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear .~D ~D ~D

Hang on. If these images are real, 'our sniper' does not fire from rooftops at all, does he?

Rooftop snipers are for the movies , he or they would be too exposed and easily isolated .


I make it a point to try and never to websites that would attract the gestapo's Uhhhh I mean cia's attention~:joker:


Ya never know who is watching with all this patriot act nonsense!

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Just seeing that makes me very, very sad. I didn't even want to finish...

It's just their job, but there is no need for filming and bragging. We do it too though, and it's wrong...

R.I.P: All soldiers who died

Good luck, to all who were only wounded...

~:mecry:

[DemonArchangel]

Well, footage is footage. It's just that in some of the shots, it looks like the soldier/soldiers are reacting to a missed bullet, not actually collapsing. And is it just me, or is there not enough blood? I know from personal experience that penetrating wounds anywhere bleed ALOT and start bleeding quickly, unlike here.

[Redleg]

Here is one part of the training manual (http://abcnews.go.com/images/International/iraqi_insurgents_revised.pdf) in .pdf form. Can anyone tell if this manual is any good, militarywise?

Was it only consisting of 7 pages with questions about who to shoot?

Simple manual - not very good quality - simple tactics which probably what it was designed for in the first place.

[Xiahou]

Im not going to watch the video, but do we have any credible reason to think this is anything more than propaganda? I have yet to see any respectable sources anywhere and from what I have read, it seems like unsubstantiated BS.

What we have in the video is likely a compilation of different sniper attacks from different snipers, obviously, edited in an attempt to show their success and boost insurgent morale.

For example, the Patriot Blog (http://www.patriotblog.com/post/index/1548/Iraqi-Sniper)...
The original video of the US medic being shot by an Iraqi sniper and then jumping back up, got wide distribution. The US unit engaged the sniper team and wounded the sniper. And the same medic who had originally been shot then treated the sniper. The video was taken by the Iraqi sniper team. What I hadn't heard was the sniper was inside a vehicle in the style of the Washington DC snipers. They were using a Soviet Dragonov sniper rifle and the sniper did hit the soldier directly over the heart.The video in this case, could've been cut to just show the medic going down and chalked it up as another victory of the mighty Juba, regardless of who the sniper was and if he was wounded and captured. Surely, there are many insurgent snipers active but attributing all of this to one super sniper is just too incredible, imo.

[DemonArchangel]

About Redleg's Post:

Target selection is probably the most critical factor in sniping (except for actually hitting what you aim at).

What can you hit, what is the range to the target (if you can find or estimate it), is the target moving or static, is the target in an area that's under observation, what vital parts on the target can you hit?

Those are just some of the few questions concering a sniper. The brief manual shows just the basics of target selection, not very good for a professional sniper that can select, track and kill a target, but it's perhaps good enough for a weekend marksman with an SVD that sees a window of opportunity and needs to determine just who to shoot with that one bullet before sliding back into the shadows.

And I'm surprised that they actually care if children are nearby or not...

[PanzerJaeger]

I still do not understand why someone would post terrorist propaganda, especially an American - or at least at one time an American - posting a video of other Americans supposedly being killed by the enemy.

I get the whole "its not my war" mentality, and I understand many on the left are "world citizens" and dont like to play up any nationalist sentiments, but this almost seems like you're gloating. Look at those dumb Americans being shot down.

Just because President Bush was re-elected doesnt make those people any less your countrymen. I understand the whole objectivity at all costs viewpoint, but it didnt bother you at all to post terrorist propaganda of US soldiers being shot?

How is this "enlightening". At least the first video had no one shot or killed on camera, this one is just sick. I dont care how left wing, anti-america, anti-establishment, pro-arab, bla bla bla a person is, there is something very wrong about getting enjoyment from sharing the misery of your fellow countrymen on the internet.

Oh well, nothing new...

[DemonArchangel]

I still do not understand why someone would post terrorist propaganda, especially an American - or at least at one time an American - posting a video of other Americans supposedly being killed by the enemy.

I get the whole "its not my war" mentality, and I understand many on the left are "world citizens" and dont like to play up any nationalist sentiments, but this almost seems like you're gloating. Look at those dumb Americans being shot down.

Just because President Bush was re-elected doesnt make those people any less your countrymen. I understand the whole objectivity at all costs viewpoint, but it didnt bother you at all to post terrorist propaganda of US soldiers being shot?

How is this "enlightening". At least the first video had no one shot or killed on camera, this one is just sick. I dont care how left wing, anti-america, anti-establishment, pro-arab, bla bla bla a person is, there is something very wrong about getting enjoyment from sharing the misery of your fellow countrymen on the internet.

Oh well, nothing new...

It is perhaps a way to analyze the mindset of the insurgent, how they operate, propagandize, etc.

[Adrian II]

Rooftop snipers are for the movies, he or they would be too exposed and easily isolated.You are right. I misread the Guardian article. It says coalition commanders would like to put their snipers on rooftops in order to get 'Juba', who operates along coalition supply routes, in their crosshairs.
My bad. :embarassed:

[Adrian II]

The only thing is that there is nothing to say that the videographer and the sniper were in the same position at all.Except that in most clips, apparently, the camera shakes at the same moment the trigger is pulled. But you are right that, at least in one case, the camera seems to be suddenly moving many yards to the left in smooth fashion, as if it were mounted (or hand-held) inside a car.

Apart from all other aspects, we can safely say this video is a very professional propaganda job. Some of the footage is fake no doubt, but the editing is smooth, the overall impression is cold-blooded and suggestive of a person who is in complete control of himself (no doubt meant to reflect his 'ease of conscience' whilst serving Allah's cause). It is not meant for you or me, it is meant to reach susceptible young men who suffer from an islamic Rambo syndrome and who dream of becoming 'Allah's avenger' or something of the sort.

[Tribesman]

I dont care how left wing, anti-america, anti-establishment, pro-arab, bla bla bla a person is, there is something very wrong about getting enjoyment from sharing the misery of your fellow countrymen on the internet.

It appears that someone hasn't read any of the posts in this topic~:rolleyes:
Anyone getting enjoyment out of the video ?


You are right. I misread the Guardian article.
Just common sense , the military would have OPs in high positions plus aerial surveilance , a roof is the last place you would want to be .

Now for some good old fun and enjoyment on the subject........
I wonder if the insurgents would be interested in purchasing some "danger sniper at work" road signs for propoganda purposes . The Fenians arn't using theirs anymore :hide:

[Adrian II]

Anyone getting enjoyment out of the video ?Nope. :stare:

[Tribesman]

Nope.
Then I wonder where Panzer got the idea from .
Ah then it must be Soly , I bet he is really enjoying it , damn traitorous liberal that he is .....
backroom users looked to have behaved themselved when i posted this thread so now here's something from the other side.

i considered this vid for a very long time before finally deciding to post it and i hope this isn't a mistake. i'm hoping that you guys are mature enough to handle it. if i'm wrong then at least we all know where the line is drawn on this subject.

please think before downloading this video, it shows no blood but is graphic. 24 mb, 15 min.

[Xiahou]

It is perhaps a way to analyze the mindset of the insurgent, how they operate, propagandize, etc.Meh, I dont need to see it to do that.

It is interesting how the Guardian regurgitates this obvious propaganda, talking about Juba like a legendary figure and saying how scared everyone is of him while on the other hand, they almost gleefully attack any propaganda by the coalition. (ie Jessica Lynch) But, I guess no one ever accused them of being a balanced paper. :rolleyes:

[Hurin_Rules]

Xiahou:

You really need to watch the footage before making further statements about it. It is a lot more than one medic going down. There are a dozen incidents there, with US soldiers obviously being shot and going down.

PJ:

Did you object when other people posted footage of Americans killing Iraqis? I don't know, I'm just asking. Is it just that it is Iraqis killing Americans, or what? Is it that it is obviously propaganda that disturbs you? What if someone had posted the footage without all the propaganda? Would that be ok with you?

I ask because I'm trying to understand your position. I don't see much of a problem with both sides posting footage--some of the US stuff is as overtly propaganda as this. Can you give me a bit better idea of why you find it so incomprehensible?

~:cheers:

[Xiahou]

Xiahou:

You really need to watch the footage before making further statements about it. It is a lot more than one medic going down. There are a dozen incidents there, with US soldiers obviously being shot and going down.No, I realize it was more than one shooting- that was called an "example (http://m-w.com/dictionary/example)". I was pointing out how the videos can be- and almost certainly are distorted for propaganda purposes and only show you what they want you to see.

[PanzerJaeger]

Nope.
Then I wonder where Panzer got the idea from .
Ah then it must be Soly , I bet he is really enjoying it , damn traitorous liberal that he is .....

Hey its none of my business. I just cant understand the mindset of an American, or former American seeing a terrorist propaganda video on the internet of other Americans being killed and feeling the need to share it with everyone else.. isnt that.. propagating?

Of course unlike those on the left I dont see this as a two sided coin. No matter what you think of Bush, those guys are over there trying to do a good thing for people they dont even know. The people killing them are not freedom fighters, they are not members of the UN recognized government of Iraq, and they do not represent the best interests of the Iraqi people.

[PanzerJaeger]

PJ:

Did you object when other people posted footage of Americans killing Iraqis? I don't know, I'm just asking. Is it just that it is Iraqis killing Americans, or what? Is it that it is obviously propaganda that disturbs you? What if someone had posted the footage without all the propaganda? Would that be ok with you?

I ask because I'm trying to understand your position. I don't see much of a problem with both sides posting footage--some of the US stuff is as overtly propaganda as this. Can you give me a bit better idea of why you find it so incomprehensible?

Its disturbing on several different levels.

First, I didnt like the first video but it did not show anyone being killed, just the process the snipers went through. This video showed people presumably being killed.

Second, Solypsis is or was American. I know nationalism isnt in style in his circles but what about a bit of patriotism? I just dont understand why someone would post a video of his own countrymen being killed. Would you?

Third, and most aggravating, its pure propaganda. He is aiding the terrorists by proliferating it over the internet. Now its his right to do whatever the hell he wants, but I cant understand why he would knowingly post terrorist propaganda here other than the fun of seeing Americans in the hated war get whats coming to them. I wonder how well someone spreading translated Goebbels speeches would be received in America during ww2?

I guess I cannot find moral equivalence between the two sides..

Anyway, I hope that explains things. :bow:

[Husar]

I think you have a strange viewpoint PJ, when I watched the video I didn´t develop hatred against those soldiers being killed or wounded, instead I felt with them and began to hate the sniper. The fact that all this was meant to be propaganda made me dislike the sniper and his companions even more. I guess soly had similar thoughts when he posted the video, it just shows how cruel the enemy is. And btw, a pretty good way to fight your enemy is to understand him and think like he does and especially don´t react like he wants you to(in this case that would be letting yourself down because of the footage presented).

Just my 2 cents.

[Arcanum]

I think that theres a person next to the sniper, filming it. Imagine it which way ever you want, but the shaking of the camera sometimes could come from the noise of the shot or general human shakiness. Also I think he was in a car one time he shot someone, so I guess it will have to be at least 2 persons.

No further comment to the video, except for PJ:

Saying that anyone enjoys this video is near to an insult, it is sick. Why would you show anything like this? Because its footage. Seeing this makes you know a little - even if just an itzy bitzy bit - more about the situation there, at least of the mental situation of the insurgents.

[Kurando]

...Second, Solypsis is or was American. I know nationalism isnt in style in his circles but what about a bit of patriotism? I just dont understand why someone would post a video of his own countrymen being killed. Would you?

Third, and most aggravating, its pure propaganda. He is aiding the terrorists by proliferating it over the internet...

I guess I cannot find moral equivalence between the two sides..

Tough to say... I'd probably speculate that soly posted this video because he figured that the patrons here at the org were mature enough to watch it, and gain something from it, and then discuss it in an intelligent manner. So far that has been exactly the case, so perhaps he's not as out of bounds as your moral argument, albeit valid, would make it seem.

Definitely, I agree that it's enemy propaganda, but realistically, is anyone at the org going to be driven to act out against America, or to join an Al Qaeda Cell because they watched this vid... I highly doubt it. In this context it's more of a "know thy enemy" and by internalizing it "know thy self" kind of affect that this video will generate amongst us.

At any rate, a video like this is bound to generate a great deal analysis from a great many perspectives. Some of us, myself included, have looked at it from a technical perspective, (is the sniper on a rooftop, or in a car, etc), but I for one am glad that you are looking at it from a moral and ethical perspective PJ; it certainly bares consideration + thanks for your attempts to keep everything in check-and-balance.

[Papewaio]

Truth, Honesty and Justice are the highest form of patrotism. Someone who just suckles at the teat of state propaganda is no more then a neutered slave.

"We are winning, nothing more to watch here, no photos of the body bags."

I think it is best to see the truth that it ain't all lobsters and oil flowing.

[Shaka_Khan]

I still do not understand why someone would post terrorist propaganda, especially an American - or at least at one time an American - posting a video of other Americans supposedly being killed by the enemy....
Luckily, none of the Americans were killed in that video. In fact, it doesn't show anyone being killed.

[Dutch_guy]

hmm you sure about that?

I remember seeing a US soldier getting shot in the head - which stuck out of the tank he was standing in.

Can't tell if the other shots were lethal, or just edited to look lethal.

:balloon2:

[DemonArchangel]

Truth, Honesty and Justice are the highest form of patrotism. Someone who just suckles at the teat of state propaganda is no more then a neutered slave.



Whoa, that was profound.

[Roark]

No one here is celebrating the injury or death of any of those soldiers. If anything, it adds to our empathy for their situation.

Panzerjager protesteth too much... ~:rolleyes:

[GoreBag]

Aw, come on. I never saw it.