The Elgin Marbles - are the heads in Greece?

[Epistolary Richard]

A colleague of mine recently went to the British Museum and saw the Elgin Marbles. She was told that, for some reason, whilst the British government had bought the bodies of the Marbles from Elgin, the heads of many of the statues had remained in Greece.

I had assumed that it was simply the case that the heads had broken off during the centuries and had been lost. Is this the case, or are the heads still in Greece?

[Kraxis]

Elgin Marbles? What are they?

[conon394]

Epistolary Richard

As far as I know Elgin sold everything he managed to secure intact to the British Museum. If it’s missing it was either broken in removal or already damaged.

Overall Elgin managed to secure 247 ft of the Parthonon frieze, 15 metropes sculptures, and seventeen pedimental figures. At the time the demand for classical antiquities was growing in Europe and in particular England and France appear to have been engaged in something of a culture arms race. Some heads seem to have been removed illegally and sold before or after Elgin’s large scale operation. Maybe the Greeks have acquired some of the heads from other museums or collectors or financed the reconstruction of some of the fragments.

[Rosacrux redux]

To put things straight, Elgin has bribed a few Ottoman officials and then stole the largest part of the Parthenon frieze. "Lord" Elgin is a bloody common thief and the marbles do not belong to the British Museum but to the Parthenon and Greece.

Bah!

[conon394]

Rosacrux redux

While I can understand where you are coming from, be honest... If the marbles had not been removed en-mass by Elgin they would have been removed piecemeal by collectors in the interim...

Elgin may have bribed officials but by the standards of the day his actions were legal. Plus the fact is the marbles will no doubt be returned, but consider how they would look now it Elgin was never born and they had endured almost 2 centuries of pollution and Turkish inattention or active damage combined with petty European looting.

I certainly hope that when the Greek government does get them back they don’t put them on the Parthenon, but in a museum, the last thing they need is to be exposed to the polluted air of any major western city be it Athens or London or Houston.

In any case the Greeks have certainly proved the stewardship argument can no longer be used as a defense by the British Museum, I think Thera is a good example of the care take by Greece compared to the comparative inattention displayed by Italy (a traditional ‘Western’ European state) for Pompeii. Also the British have surprisingly managed to duck the issue of the bleaching carried out under their auspices

[Steppe Merc]

Why should the Elgin Marbles be returned? People have always stolen art from other places. If everyone had to return the art that was stolen, there would be no muesuems left.
In addition, why do the Greeks have precedence? It isn't the same government or country as it was before. Just because they live in the same place doesn't make them the heirs of all things there.

[conon394]

Steppe Merc

My sense of the situation just makes me feel they will be returned, the political environment seems to be tilting toward Greece. There is no reason they have to; but Greece has made a strong case that they are a modern European state, they managed the Olympics just fine even though they were put under a harsh (and rather unfair) level of scrutiny. They have a demonstrated track record of managing antiquates as well if not better then many other European states. While I think in the long run Elgin did a good service in preserving the marbles, British stewardship has its own black eyes... Ultimately it would be nice if the remains those in Athens, London, Paris and else ware could be shown together in sight of (at least) of the Parthenon. Seeing as most of the major players in the drama are EU members I find it difficult to believe that they can't work out some kind of EU wide arrangement.

[Kraxis]

Return or not...

That is a very tough dilemma. My consious mind says it is the right thing to return the stuff, Sweden has a lot of things that were looted back in the late 1600s that I would like to see back in Denmark. But then I think of the Glyptotek in Copenhagen, a massive donated museum of art from Carlsberg (the man and founder of the brewery). It has featured immensively in my school history. I have been there several times as it is perfect for showing students the various cultures. Without it I would have been that much less educated, and I really don't like that.

Of course some museums have more or less taken everything there is about a specific culture (or region), and thus the argument is hardly effective, but we can't play doublestandards. Arrrr it is so... Well unsolveable.

[Marcellus]

In answer to the original question...

I went to the British museum recently and yes, many of the heads from the metope panels depicting fights between Centaurs and Lapiths are in Greece. I thought it seemed pretty stupid to keep them separate, but I suppose neither the British Museum nor Greece want to give up their parts of the metope panels.

[King Henry V]

The act of taking the marbles to Britain, was probably a good thing given the fact that had Elgin not done so some of the frieze would probably have been destroyed, since the Erechteum was reduced to ruins during the Greek War of Independance. Note that the Ottomans did not have a great reputation when it came to preserving historical monuments.

[Seleukos]

Oh thanks god mr Elgin stole the marbles !!

He also stole one Karyatis statue from the Erecthion u mention-but the other 5 survived too while staying in Greece...not only the stolen one.

And the bleaching,and destruction of the surface of the marbles by the British keepers of the museum...well it was part of the "protection"...

[Kraxis]

The act of taking the marbles to Britain, was probably a good thing given the fact that had Elgin not done so some of the frieze would probably have been destroyed, since the Erechteum was reduced to ruins during the Greek War of Independance. Note that the Ottomans did not have a great reputation when it came to preserving historical monuments.
Yeah...

"Hey, that is a nice big building up there."
"My dear, you are right."
"Let's use it as an ammo dump!"
"Yes, lets bring all the gunpowder in Greece here, and make sure it is badly guarded."

[Geoffrey S]

It's a horrendously pointless loss, that.

At the time taking the marbles was for the best; as has been said the Ottomans didn't have the preservation of Greek monuments high on their list of priorities. Right now I'd have thought Greece would be capable of taking good care of them, and that the marbles do belong where they originated.

[King Henry V]

Oh thanks god mr Elgin stole the marbles !!

He also stole one Karyatis statue from the Erecthion u mention-but the other 5 survived too while staying in Greece...not only the stolen one.

And the bleaching,and destruction of the surface of the marbles by the British keepers of the museum...well it was part of the "protection"...
Yes, the cleaning of the marbles was a very foolish mistake, but they would have been damaged and eroded by the natural elements had they stayed in Greece. I agree that the marbles should be returned to their home in Greece, but the transfer of the marbles to Britain was the best thing for them at the time.

[Epistolary Richard]

Thanks for the answers, I'll pass them on to her :thumbsup:

[Kalle]

Sweden has a lot of things that were looted back in the late 1600s that I would like to see back in Denmark.

And what would that be? Scania? Blekinge? Halland? Bohus? Jamtland? Harjedalen? And for some time Norway, but Norway we gave away but not to danes but to the Norwegians themselves, thats how good we are but now we want the Norwegian oil back, its oursss ourrrrsssssssss precioussss :charge: ~D

Kalle

[Kraxis]

And what would that be? Scania? Blekinge? Halland? Bohus? Jamtland? Harjedalen? And for some time Norway, but Norway we gave away but not to danes but to the Norwegians themselves, thats how good we are but now we want the Norwegian oil back, its oursss ourrrrsssssssss precioussss :charge: ~D

Kalle
You have the royal dress of Queen Margaret I... Among other things. Do not presume that those occupations of Denmark (outside Copenhagen) were nice in any way.

[Papewaio]

Pity there wasn't a modern Elgin to buy the Buddhist statues that the Taliban blew up...

[Incongruous]

I do not agree with all this "we want it back because a long time ago you stole it".
I mean if we give back the Elgin marbles, why not give everything back that we have accumulated over the years from other countries?

[Rosacrux redux]

I do not agree with all this "we want it back because a long time ago you stole it".
I mean if we give back the Elgin marbles, why not give everything back that we have accumulated over the years from other countries?

Now that's a good idea if I ever heard one ~D

[Kraxis]

I think the point would be to retunr stuff in a sensible manner.

Lets consider the cases where 'foreign' states have almost exclusive info on a certain culture or something. That obivously can't be right and as such at least some should be returned. But returning everything could be equally damning as it could end up pretty closed off for various reasons.

Anyway, Denmark returned all the originals of the Icelandic Sagas to Iceland about 15-15 years ago. It was sensible to have them here when when they were brought here as there was no university in Iceland, but in time they were copied and weren't even on display. There was no purpose for them being in Denmark... While tere was certainly purpose to them being in Iceland where they would bolster the notional feeling and sense of belonging.

[Steppe Merc]

Pity there wasn't a modern Elgin to buy the Buddhist statues that the Taliban blew up...
Agreed, it is a shame about those statues.

And I don't want to tred on this whole nationlism thing, but it wasn't your nation that created those artworks. I really don't see how just because you live in the same place a nation once existed you automatically get the rights to that artwork. What about in a place where many different cultures and groups created art, and the current inhabitants are hardly related to those people at all?
I'm not saying its right to go around stealing art. However, I don't think we can or should return everything to the nation where it was found in.

[Kalle]

You have the royal dress of Queen Margaret I... Among other things. Do not presume that those occupations of Denmark (outside Copenhagen) were nice in any way.


Uumm I think you took my post hard? Sorry for that. :bow:

I dont think I said the occupation was nice and if I implied it im sorry. Neither were the danish attempts to dominate Sweden nice. Wars and such things are hardly ever nice.

In all honesty though I think the danes caused as much trouble and were as bad vs Swedes/Sweden as Sweden has been to Denmark. Return the money Sweden had to pay to get Älvsborg back in todays value and Im sure we can make a deal about the dress ~:cheers:

I think Margareta was Queen of Sweden aswell though so why the dress belong more to Denmark?~:confused: ~;)

Kalle

[Seleukos]

Agreed, it is a shame about those statues.

And I don't want to tred on this whole nationlism thing, but it wasn't your nation that created those artworks. I really don't see how just because you live in the same place a nation once existed you automatically get the rights to that artwork. What about in a place where many different cultures and groups created art, and the current inhabitants are hardly related to those people at all?
I'm not saying its right to go around stealing art. However, I don't think we can or should return everything to the nation where it was found in.

"it wasnt your nation that created those artworks" ??

What do u mean it wasnt the greek nation ?~:confused: ~:confused: ~:confused:

[Rosacrux redux]

Agreed, it is a shame about those statues.

And I don't want to tred on this whole nationlism thing, but it wasn't your nation that created those artworks. I really don't see how just because you live in the same place a nation once existed you automatically get the rights to that artwork. What about in a place where many different cultures and groups created art, and the current inhabitants are hardly related to those people at all?
I'm not saying its right to go around stealing art. However, I don't think we can or should return everything to the nation where it was found in.

No, I think you are saying it is right to go around stealing art. In a rather resolute way too. And stop the nationalistic nonsense, I am as nationalist as a man without a country ~:rolleyes:

Now, there is this little thing that is called "the national emblem of a country". The "Elgin" marbles are for Parthenon and Greece something like the crown jewels are for Buckinghum and Britain - a national emblem. And since they got acquired in a rather queer manner, one could only expect the British government, honoring the good relationships with Greece and appreciating the value those artifacts have for our country and people, to give them back.

We haven't gone to Le Louvre to ask for Aphrodite back, nor to the one thousand museums throughout the world to ask for the millions of Greek artifacts to be returned.

We ask only for the "Elgin" marbles because they are a vital part of our national monument, that is all.

What is so hard to understand in that?

[Seleukos]

We haven't gone to Le Louvre to ask for Aphrodite back, nor to the one thousand museums throughout the world to ask for the millions of Greek artifacts to be returned.

We ask only for the "Elgin" marbles because they are a vital part of our national monument, that is all.


I agree 100%.

And its a thing more: These scalptures are a part of an architectural complex-the Parthenon and the Acropolis,not single statues,pots or artifacts.
Of course i dont mean that they should be exposed to the pollution and air,but they should be presented in the museum of Acropolis.
Its like someone have cut and stolen the head of the statue of liberty end exposes it in a museum of Africa~;p

[Kraxis]

I think Margareta was Queen of Sweden aswell though so why the dress belong more to Denmark?~:confused: ~;)

Kalle
Fair enough (about the parts left out)...

She was, but she was part of the Danish royal family since she was married into it, and she was the initiator of the Kalmar Union. She 'gained' the title of queen of Sweden by virtue of actions, but her family was tied to Denmark.

The warindemnities were neither great nor very tough on Sweden, the war had been a low intensity war with neither side getting any clear advantage. The indemnity reflected that, had it been a crushing demand you can be sure Sweden would have fought on as she was far from beaten.

[English assassin]

And I don't want to tred on this whole nationlism thing, but it wasn't your nation that created those artworks. I really don't see how just because you live in the same place a nation once existed you automatically get the rights to that artwork

THIS is a sensible observation. It may be that the people living in greece today do have some claim over an artwork created by the people living in greece 2500 years ago, but they do have to make the case IMHO. Certainly the greek NATION didn't create the art, not least because the greek nation in modern form didn't exist until over 2000 years later. I imagine an ancient Athenian would be very amused at the idea of a modern Peleponesian asking for the return of "his" marbles...

An argument like "the frieze is part of the building and should be with the building" is a sensible one IMHO. "We are greek and so are the statues" is not such a sensible one.

For my twopennorth, Elgin obtained the marbles legally enough by the standards of the time. It might be better to transfer the marbles to Athens at some time, but that should be because it would enable more people to see them or otherwise enhance the marbles or the Parthenon, not because of any (in my view incorrect) argument that the marbles were obtained illegally.

I also think we should resist very strongly this idea that artifacts should not leave their country of origin (in stark contrast to the people in a lot of the country of origins who seem to be very happy to leave). Is it really an improvement to the world at large if you can only see african art in africa, or aboriginal items in Australia?

[Idomeneas]

THIS is a sensible observation. It may be that the people living in greece today do have some claim over an artwork created by the people living in greece 2500 years ago, but they do have to make the case IMHO. Certainly the greek NATION didn't create the art, not least because the greek nation in modern form didn't exist until over 2000 years later. I imagine an ancient Athenian would be very amused at the idea of a modern Peleponesian asking for the return of "his" marbles...

An argument like "the frieze is part of the building and should be with the building" is a sensible one IMHO. "We are greek and so are the statues" is not such a sensible one.

For my twopennorth, Elgin obtained the marbles legally enough by the standards of the time. It might be better to transfer the marbles to Athens at some time, but that should be because it would enable more people to see them or otherwise enhance the marbles or the Parthenon, not because of any (in my view incorrect) argument that the marbles were obtained illegally.

I also think we should resist very strongly this idea that artifacts should not leave their country of origin (in stark contrast to the people in a lot of the country of origins who seem to be very happy to leave). Is it really an improvement to the world at large if you can only see african art in africa, or aboriginal items in Australia?

I think you are comfusing something. We are not talking about americans claiming wipped out native americans' artwork. We are not talking about spaniards claiming wipped out maya or aztec artefacts. We are talking about Greeks claiming greek artwork actually stolen with permission not of greek people but of an occupation force officer. In recent researches in dna of greek population it is found that an enormous percentage is of native origin, a ig bpart of them go back to palaiolithic age. Popullation not only within in todays greek borders but all over balcans and asia minor. And it makes perfect sense because all those people living here 2500 were not disappered in any way. They continued living in the region (no running away from snow and hunger). Offcourse there are alterations on the popullation nobody sane would deny it, but certainly not to the point you imply (a people been disappeared or extinct). Offcourse if you have any kind of facts i would be happy to have a discussion. If not everything you say is as valid as any claim that im grandson of Pericles.

''Lord'' Elgin was a little petty thief trying to get some money by mutilating a monument of worldwide importance. The permission he originally had from Sultan was about drawing the monuments. After he worked his way with bribes and tricks he managed to strip the marbles. The scientific methods he used included SAWS and many pieces were destroyed while brought down. He boarded the marbles in a warship in such an illegal manner that the british goverment didnt initially aproved. The marbles stayed in a wet storage house on the ground while he was looking for buyers. Yes thank god he saved the marbles from pollution which only appeared in athens the last 30 years.

To be fair Elgin was only one of the many foreigners that roamed the land during 18th-19th century trying to aquire ancient artefacts. Classisism was fashionable then. The good thing is that while some people thought that would be more civilized by just owing a classic piece some people saw what the real wealth of greece was and appreciated the struggle of its people for independence. People like Lord Byron and many other true friends of greek spirit. He saw in the resistance of Messologi city people the fighters of Sparta, athens, Macedonia and more, He saw that the independence spirit was always there. Elgin and people like him needed sculptures to see those values. He/they forgote that the real essense of greece wasnt in marbles but in people.

I understand the objections of british fellows. They are right. If everybody takes what is his back what will be left in that vast museum? Well you still have Stonehedge guys. Its great.
The most annoying is to see people legalizing theft just because it suits them. The marbles are part of a building. Parthenon. And part of a complex. Acropolis. The new museum is almost ready waiting for the marbles.

I assure you we can take care of them. At least we know that Penteliko marble has iron inside it and thats why the redish color is not dirt.

Everybody who wants to see them is welcome to see then in the natural enviroment they belong and under apollo's sun light not some rainny foggy place. After all Greece is not THAT far.

[conon394]

Idomeneas

Setting aside the use or ill-use of any particular piece of genetic evidence, claiming a direct patrimony from classical Greece would seem to not necessarily justify a return.

After all the Athenians built who Parthenon but also were also quite comfortable with the logic of the Melian dialogue, and the defense of their empire at Thuc. I 73-78 even in defeat if you consider Plutarch and how Philocles faced the defeat at Aegospotami. In each case the Athenian view on legality would seem to be that powerful empires were free to define the legality (or lack there of) of actions among themselves. In Elign’s day Britain certainly qualifies as such, Turkey to a lesser extent, and unfortunately for Greeks, Greece not at all.

[Steppe Merc]

"it wasnt your nation that created those artworks" ??

What do u mean it wasnt the greek nation ?~:confused: ~:confused: ~:confused:
Greece as it is today did not exist when it was created. It wasn't even close to the current govenrment. Perhaps the people are related to those who did create it, but that does not justify the return.

If it is about the completion of the artwork, that more people can view it, or if the British Muesuem would be able to get some other artwork to display, then it would be acceptable.


No, I think you are saying it is right to go around stealing art. In a rather resolute way too. And stop the nationalistic nonsense, I am as nationalist as a man without a country ~:rolleyes:
I am not saying it is right to steal art. I'm saying that if all the art that was ever stolen in the past was returned, then few muesuems would be left. And that would mean many people would never get to learn about those people, much less view the art work.
If the same thing happened today, I would be strongly against it. But it did not, and cultures have always stolen art from other places. Should all of the Roman copies of the Greek originals be given to Greece, since many of those original statues no longer exist? What about the many buildings in Rome that were constructed from the Collisuem and other monuments' ruins, should those buildings be demolished in order to restor the Flavian Ampitheater?

As for nationlism, I was not directing it soley towards you.

[Haudegen]

Bad news for the Greek team here: I think legally there´s no way to get the marbles back. There is a so called

Council Directive 93/7/EEC of 15 March 1993 on the return of cultural objects unlawfully removed from the territory of a Member State

http://europa.eu.int/smartapi/cgi/sga_doc?smartapi!celexapi!prod!CELEXnumdoc&lg=EN&numdoc=31993L0007&model=guichett

As far as I can see the time limit (article 7) is gone a long time ago.



But I admit that I sympathize with the Greeks in this dispute. The Parthenon is the only place they really belong.

For the friends of the British Museum: How about placing some well made copies of the originals in the museum. Should be enough for most visitors to get an impression of ancient Greek culture.

[Seleukos]

Greece as it is today did not exist when it was created. It wasn't even close to the current govenrment. Perhaps the people are related to those who did create it, but that does not justify the return.

If it is about the completion of the artwork, that more people can view it, or if the British Muesuem would be able to get some other artwork to display, then it would be acceptable.
.


So u mean there is not Pericles on the government? ~;p
Well i think even in USA the president cant be elected more than 2 times!

So...i really cannot understand your argument:should there be the same political system? or there should be polis- city-states?

I dont read and interpret hisory under a "nation prisma",but a nation is much more from the constitution,the government and the rulers.
I m not speaking about "blood connection" only of course,but about the tradition,the cultural elements ,the language etc.

And as for that more people can view it...well Greece has about 14 million tourists every year-i think its 3rd in the world in arrivals.
How about stealing some things to display to have something to display to the tourists?

(Anyway enough from me about it.)

[hellenes]

So u mean there is not Pericles on the government? ~;p
Well i think even in USA the president cant be elected more than 2 times!

So...i really cannot understand your argument:should there be the same political system? or there should be polis- city-states?

I dont read and interpret hisory under a "nation prisma",but a nation is much more from the constitution,the government and the rulers.
I m not speaking about "blood connection" only of course,but about the tradition,the cultural elements ,the language etc.

And as for that more people can view it...well Greece has about 14 million tourists every year-i think its 3rd in the world in arrivals.
How about stealing some things to display to have something to display to the tourists?

(Anyway enough from me about it.)

http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/99/0927/hongkong.html

Hmmm we dont have any nukes to push some Tony's and UK's buttons do we?

Hellenes

[Idomeneas]

Idomeneas

Setting aside the use or ill-use of any particular piece of genetic evidence, claiming a direct patrimony from classical Greece would seem to not necessarily justify a return.

After all the Athenians built who Parthenon but also were also quite comfortable with the logic of the Melian dialogue, and the defense of their empire at Thuc. I 73-78 even in defeat if you consider Plutarch and how Philocles faced the defeat at Aegospotami. In each case the Athenian view on legality would seem to be that powerful empires were free to define the legality (or lack there of) of actions among themselves. In Elign’s day Britain certainly qualifies as such, Turkey to a lesser extent, and unfortunately for Greeks, Greece not at all.

So you are telling me that stealing from somebody who is weakened at the time its ok if you are superpower. So would it be fair if USA guys were comming and cut the half of Big Ben? or the tower? They are by far more strong than UK. Would it be legite then?

The return is justified by the Parthenon itself even if the rest of the land was inhabited by Marsians in nowdays. It is a work of art and has to be as completed as posible. I dond suppose anybody would like a headless Mona Lisa.

Also i find very insulting people saying that we cannot take care our heritage. Parthenon had many adventures. Became a byzantine church, then a frankish one, it was blown up by Morizini when it was magazine of Turks and many more through the years. All missfortunes of Parthenon happened either of natural disasters either of wars. Never before pieces were destroyed by specialists who supposed to be tending them.

I will close with a story from war of independence. When Turks were sieged in the Acropolis during the reoccupation of Athens by revolutionary army, eventually they were left out of bullets. Then they started breaking the collumns because as known their parts were stabilized by a lead core running through them. They were extracting that lead in order to manufacture bullets. The Greeks that layed seige after realizing this they called for a truce and sent them a load of bullets with the message ''if it finishes tell us and we will give you more, dont destroy the collumns''. Did all those people could fully realize the cultural value of Parthenon? I seriously doubt it. But the ones who mattered and made the difference certainly could. Makrygiannis one of the most esteemed generals of revolution when he saw one time two peasents trading an ancient artefact with a foreigner told them ''what are you selling? for these things we fight!''

[Papewaio]

Or the entire Parthenon could be relocated to the UK and reunited with the marbles... that way the entire artwork would again be one piece ~;)

I think the marbles should be returned to Greece.

BTW did any nations help Greece in its battle for independance?

[Rosacrux redux]

BTW did any nations help Greece in its battle for independance?

"Nation" as "State"? None, until the naval battle at Navarino - the first sign that the Great Powers (English, French, Russians) have made up their minds and decided to actually aid the poor Greeks get their independence from the Ottos. A couple of smallish war-loans were handed out to Greece, but I'd count that as a calculated risk (the terms were unbearable and only the interest put the newly formed Greek democracy at a huge debt within a decade) and not as "help".

But a host of individuals aided the Greek cause. Many volunteers joined the Greeks in their revolt and among them the most prominent was Lord Byron (the poet). Most of the volunteers were French, with Italian in the second place, English and Germans following way behind. Several Polish also, and a few others. All those people are honored and their names have been given to plazas, roads and monuments. Lots of them remained at Greece after the war was over and their offspring still lives in Greece.

Ah, Steppe Merc, you conveniently missed to reply to the very point that makes the marble argument sound and appealing even to non-Greeks. The point I was explaining that those are a part of Greece's national monument and symbol, not mere artifacts of huge value. It's precisely like cutting of the right arm of the liberty statue and moving it to Athens - wouldn't you want it back mate?

[English assassin]

Just for the record, I don't have any problem at all with discussing the marbles in the context of the need to see the parthenon as a whole, (although as we all know even if returned the marbles will not be reinstated on the building itself as the pollution would destroy them) or the ability or otherwise of people to see the marbles, or other arguments of that sort.

What I do think doesn't move the argument forward is all this talk of them being stolen. Like it or not the Turks were the soveriegn power in the area at the time and they sold the marbles. The legal position is clear.

I'm also not very convinced by any argument involving DNA. Possibly one of my ancestors wrote Macbeth but I can't see it gives me a claim to the manuscript.

As I say it may be the marbles should be returned anyway, but that is another story. My own view is that I would not be particularly unhappy if duplicates were made to stand in the British Museum and the originals were returned, ALTHOUGH, and I am sorry if this means the Greeks would lose out, I would be seriously worried about the storm of less worthy claims for the return of items that would follow.

Museums like the BM should be seen as important resources for world scholarship, rather than some sort of nationalistic statement, and the fact that items from many cultures and times are assembled in one place is very important.

[King Henry V]

''Lord'' Elgin was a little petty thief trying to get some money by mutilating a monument of worldwide importance. The permission he originally had from Sultan was about drawing the monuments. After he worked his way with bribes and tricks he managed to strip the marbles. The scientific methods he used included SAWS and many pieces were destroyed while brought down. He boarded the marbles in a warship in such an illegal manner that the british goverment didnt initially aproved. The marbles stayed in a wet storage house on the ground while he was looking for buyers. Yes thank god he saved the marbles from pollution which only appeared in athens the last 30 years.

Well he wasn't much of a thief since he spent about 80,000 pounds on purchasing the marbles, which he meant to put up in his home.
Well they hardly had any other methods other than using saws. What should he have done, used lasers?
And how could he have got the permission of the Greek nation when it didn't even exist at the time?

[conon394]

So you are telling me that stealing from somebody who is weakened at the time its ok if you are superpower. So would it be fair if USA guys were comming and cut the half of Big Ben? or the tower? They are by far more strong than UK. Would it be legite then?

No that not I was telling you, rather I was pointing out that the Athenians who built the Parthenon did however use such a justification, I’m not really sure they would be all that sympathetic to the return argument. I have noted here already that I think Greece has a strong case for a return of the marbles, but asserting a false allegation of theft or strained claims of a right of ownership due to some link to Classical Athens adds little to that claim.

[Steppe Merc]

Ah, Steppe Merc, you conveniently missed to reply to the very point that makes the marble argument sound and appealing even to non-Greeks. The point I was explaining that those are a part of Greece's national monument and symbol, not mere artifacts of huge value. It's precisely like cutting of the right arm of the liberty statue and moving it to Athens - wouldn't you want it back mate?
I would be far more upset if it was a Native American artifact, or something interesting and a good work of art that didn't even come from here, but was housed here. I never liked the statue of liberty... it's boring.

[Incongruous]

It seems that this is becoming a rather boring nationalistic rant.
Its time to get out the big guns!~;)

[Rosacrux redux]

I would be far more upset if it was a Native American artifact, or something interesting and a good work of art that didn't even come from here, but was housed here. I never liked the statue of liberty... it's boring.

Is there some kind of reply there? Because I am not seeing one...
Not to mention that Parthenon is a marvelous work of architecture and the marbles a unique and of huge artistic value, work of art. Woulnd't you want it back?

Ah, and Bopa, please, if you don't have anything besides silly sideremarks to offer to a conversation, please stay out of it. It's not like anyone is dragging you in it, no?

[Papewaio]

The Statue of Liberty was made in France so strictly speaking it is not an American Art work... now something that is Incan or Aztec or Native American etc would be more in line with the Marbles...

[Steppe Merc]

Yeah, then I would be more upset about it.


Is there some kind of reply there? Because I am not seeing one...
Just commenting. And I find it difficult to respond to many of the posts, seeing as how some people are claiming that the Greeks today are the same entity as the Greeks in the past. I find it difficult to respond to such claims.

Not to mention that Parthenon is a marvelous work of architecture and the marbles a unique and of huge artistic value, work of art. Woulnd't you want it back?
Perhaps. But my point is that every artwork ever taken from its place of origin being returned would destroy muesuems. There has to be some give and take. If copies were made and given to the British, that would be acceptable, amonst other options.

[conon394]

Personally I don’t think the copy is a good one, the last thing we need is to fill up museums with copies. I would much rather see Britain Greece and the other EU states that hold significant bits of the Parthenon come to some general agreement that Greece should have stewardship of the marbles but also agree perhaps trade other less politically ‘hot’ items with Britain, France etc. For example the British museum has a quite extensive catalogue of classical vases as does Greece, Greece could perhaps agree to a long term loan of additional vases, allowing the British to maintain an large exhibit of classical art as the same scale as the Elgin marbles

[Steppe Merc]

Yeah, that would be good. Or mabye a sort of "traveling show". This wouldn't work for the Marbles, but smaller things could go to many muesuems, while still being under the stewardship of whoever.