View Full Version : Is this flag racist?
InsaneApache
12-05-2005, 11:37
well is it?
St. George (http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/men/news/s/190/190116_racism_row_over_fans_flag.html)
If it is intended to be, then yes. And based on the situation in Oldham, and the prevalence of BNP there (not to mention thier familiar tactic of recruiting at football matches) I would say it was.
However the flag, and the message, per se, are not racist.
InsaneApache
12-05-2005, 11:58
I tend to agree about the BNP in Oldham malarky ... but that in itself doesn't make our national flag racist.
http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000006D8C1.htm
^For our overseas fellows^
Weebeast
12-05-2005, 12:14
It's how you intend it to be, I think. I had a confederate flag on other forum as my avatar. It's just a symbolism; me being here in the south.
Now that flag, I think the saying is a shot at people who weren't born in England or live in England.
Louis VI the Fat
12-05-2005, 12:14
Is the flag racist? No, not by itself.
Was it used as a racist symbol by that guy? I would say so, yes. Or rather, not necessarily racist, but ultra-nationalistic. And I wouldn't want that crap in my stadium either.
InsaneApache
12-05-2005, 12:17
but the 'Stars and Bars' was/is seen as a symbol of a regime that enforced slavery.... we have no real history of utilising slaves in England....I don't see the parallel at all.
I believe an agenda is at work here...to shame the English and to erode our national pride and identity.
Louis VI the Fat
12-05-2005, 12:24
^For our overseas fellows^On a completely unrelated side-note. It suddenly struck me how convenient it is for the British to be able to use 'overseas' and 'non-British' as synonyms. Being an island and all that.
If I were to say 'for my overseas fellows', would that be proper English for 'non-French' or would that be just 'non-sense'? Do Americans have any short concise term for non-Americans?
InsaneApache
12-05-2005, 12:45
You could always use the term 'abroad' .... we use both in the UK....but you're right I never thought about it until now, 'overseas' would'n't cut the mustard on mainland Europe now would it? ~D
I believe an agenda is at work here...to shame the English and to erode our national pride and identity.
I believe the agenda is to make this spurious claim in order to bolster support for right wing groups.
It pisses me off that people use the flag of England in that way.
and another thing what are they moaning about, life in modern England, and the rest of Britan is batter than it ever has been before, and compared to the rest of the world Britan and western Europe are some of the best places to live, if your not wealthy much batter than any other countries.
And would England be batter with out any non English in it right now, no the country as a while would be poorer.
ok enough of the rant
The Blind King of Bohemia
12-05-2005, 14:00
Certain football clubs fans use the Flag of st george for racial undertones. Big teams like Chelsea use to have big links to combat 18 and other racist groups and other teams in the lower leagues have facist links but that doesn't make the flag racist, we need to take the flag back from certain idiots as their opinions are affecting when and where we can show are national flag as a symbol of pride.
To be honest i have seen worst things, like burning the English flag by extremists not long ago in Birmingham city centre and London, but oddly enough we don't hear that much about that. I don't think its racist as those words are simply stating what it is to be an Englishman, and the flag should connote that.
I'm not to sure about the familar tactic of recruiting at football matches. Racism is virtually not existant at footie matches nowadays. I know people refer alot to to Stoke city and Oldham match when apparently both hooligans firms allied and attacked Muslim areas but alot of it is incorrect. overhyped and quite frankly bollocks.
Besides look to Spain and Italy racism is beyond belief over there.
InsaneApache
12-05-2005, 14:14
I believe the agenda is to make this spurious claim in order to bolster support for right wing groups.
Spurious?? right wing groups???
Over and over again the indiginous population are made to feel guilty and ashamed of their heritage. This is purportrated by the left. If there is a backlash, then they only have themselves to blame for promoting alien cultures above the host nation. I see no right wing agenda there.
Templar Knight
12-05-2005, 16:13
Of course it’s not racist, it has just unfortunately been hijacked
Spurious?? right wing groups???
Over and over again the indiginous population are made to feel guilty and ashamed of their heritage. This is purportrated by the left. If there is a backlash, then they only have themselves to blame for promoting alien cultures above the host nation. I see no right wing agenda there.
What on earth are you blathering about? Who is making you ashamed of your heritage? What is your heritage? What alien cultures are being promoted?
I have a feeling you are talking Daily Mail style sh*te with the hope that if you throw enough reactionary cliches at one post something might hopefully make sense.
I take it all back. Earlier today I was buying a pastie. I was rounded upon by gay muslims and forced to spit on pictures of the Duke of Wellington whilst apologising in Polish for the sins of my forefathers.
Ser Clegane
12-05-2005, 16:23
I take it all back. Earlier today I was buying a pastie. I was rounded upon by gay muslims and forced to spit on pictures of the Duke of Wellington whilst apologising in Polish for the sins of my forefathers.
Serves you right :smug:
~;)
el_slapper
12-05-2005, 16:28
well, it really is dependant on the context. In France, Racism is mostly directed against people born in France, living in France & who will probably die in France. Well, some of them will be buried in North Africa, but it doesn't enter the flag quote.....
The situation in England is different, it seems, & one has to know the context better than myself to judge...
Duke Malcolm
12-05-2005, 17:15
Good lord, no, that flag is not rascist! The Saltire has as much racist connotations as that flag!
Religious events in India are full of swastikas, does that make them all Nazis?~;)
I take it all back. Earlier today I was buying a pastie. I was rounded upon by gay muslims and forced to spit on pictures of the Duke of Wellington whilst apologising in Polish for the sins of my forefathers.
As a gay muslim I resent the slur implied by your use of Polish, a language which I cannot understand, in your apology!
Ianofsmeg16
12-05-2005, 18:46
Oh for god sake, WHEN WILL THIS STOP?!?
listen, i aint a racist, in fact i enjoy learning and experiencing other cultures. But when you thing that a nations flag is racist, its gone too farthe opposite seems to be happening here. The flag of Saint George is England's Flag, it is not an anti-muslim flag, get over it.
p.s. I apologise to any muslim patrons, those that know me, know that i am not racist, but this is an issue i feel strongly on :) so...let there be love!
Templar Knight
12-05-2005, 18:58
In Glasgow sometime ago there was a kick up about the union jack being anti-{insert culture} but it wasn't the ethnic minorities that were complaining, it was local councillors and other local politicians that felt that it was alienating them. But if you asked the communities they were supposedly standing up for they had nothing against it.
And another note, about Christmas. I have never once heard ethic groups complaining about the festive season, again only local politicians. Strangely enough a lot of shops in these communities sell tons of xmas goodies, so they are hardly against it. ~:)
yesdachi
12-05-2005, 19:11
Is this flag racist?
Not to me.
King Henry V
12-05-2005, 19:11
The flag is not racist, and just because a few extreme groups use it, I do not see why the rest of the English nation should not be allowed to do so.
However, I do find some things said by Allen to be very offensive:
"If we see it again at our ground I will find the person responsible and burn it in front of him".
If a foreign flag was publicly burnt in Britain (unless it's the usual suspects -anarchists- burning an American and Israeli flag) there would be also be a complaint from the said nation. But of course if the flag of St. George is burned in its patron country, it is perfectly acceptable...~:rolleyes:
"It has no place in society"
Oh so just because Mr Smarty Allen doesn't like the flag and thinks it has "racial undertones" a flag which has represented England for the past 800 years, it should no longer be used in today's society. If this were Saint Andrew's Cross, Saint Patrick's Cross or the Welsh Dragon, the said flag's country would have a fit. But since this is England, where all sense of national pride is almost frowned upon, this can be allowed to happen freely.
Actually the only thing that the phrase "Born in England, Live in England, Die in England" is the phrase of a packet of beef I saw in France "Born in France, Raised in France, Slaughtered in France".
Louis VI the Fat
12-05-2005, 19:49
Context is what matters.
the phrase of a packet of beef I saw in France "Born in France, Raised in France, Slaughtered in France".In a supermarket, that would be perfectly neutral.
But when chanted by Front National sympathizers against some Africans born and bred in France...
InsaneApache
12-05-2005, 19:53
Context is what matters.
Give that man a cigar....
Mouzafphaerre
12-05-2005, 20:41
.
The flag is innocent but the slogan is too familiar for me; our racists regularly use "love or leave" over here.
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Mouzafphaerre
12-05-2005, 20:48
Of course it’s not racist, it has just unfortunately been hijacked
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Hijacked is just the word. :yes:
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ShadesWolf
12-05-2005, 21:24
A Flag cannot be rascist, it is part of our heritage.
It would be no different than staying 'Burberry' is rascist as a large percentage of football yobs wear Burberry.
Or better still, BMW are rascist as 'Nick Griffin' drives one.
How stupid, Labour should sack him and take his pension away for saying it, but Bliar will probably put him in the House of Lords ~:rolleyes:
Not really related to the actual debate, but I read in a newspaper (Metro) that St Georges became the Saint of England in 1415, before it was St Edward. Does somebody know why the change? Other collateral damage, the famous sentence in Agincourt was a poetic licence; The King should have say for England, Harry and St Edward…~:)
Nothing is sure nowadays…
A flag by itself isn’t racist, nor a National Hymn (La Marseillaise is blame to be to bloody and xenophobic… well it said to kill all the foreigners, but only the ones who come to kill our wives and partners), however it can represent racist ideologies… The swastika in Europe is one of them, the most know, at least. And I don’t care if it is in fact the representation of the travel of the sun in the sky, the sun wheel or other signification. For me it is a Nazi symbol, so racist, as so are all the sub-division.:knight:
Concerning the Confederate Flag, I don’t know.
I suppose that if I should be a black American, I would nor appreciate to much a flag which was carried by those who want me just as a slave…~:confused:
TheSilverKnight
12-05-2005, 23:30
The flag itself is not a racist symbol at all, but when it is used in the wrong context and connotation, with people saying such offensive things as "Born in England, Live in England..." etc, then people become easily offended and a stupid thing like this breaks out. So in short, NO. The flag is NOT racist. It was just hijacked for a purpose and people now believe it is racist, which is not the case at all considering the history behind the flag and the pride that English people (including me) show to it. ~:cheers: The material printed on the flag, not the flag itself, is at fault, and it should be dealt with accordingly, but not to the extent where it would deface our national flag (of England).
So, like Louis the Fat said, "Context is what matters" :bow:
...so where's my cigar, InsaneApache? ~D
Taffy_is_a_Taff
12-05-2005, 23:33
I have heard several reasons why the patron saint may have been changed.
1. England was busy getting buddy buddy with Genoa (patron saint of said city being George). Compare Genoa's flag with England's St George's cross.
2. George has always been a soldier's saint and Henry V was all about the war with France.
InsaneApache
12-05-2005, 23:34
I've hidden it in Boggert Hole Clough !!!! near the boating lake.......~:eek:
TheSilverKnight
12-05-2005, 23:35
I've hidden it in Boggert Hole Clough !!!! near the boating lake.......~:eek:
Damn you! *goes looking for cigars*
Templar Knight
12-05-2005, 23:46
Not really related to the actual debate, but I read in a newspaper (Metro) that St Georges became the Saint of England in 1415, before it was St Edward. Does somebody know why the change? Other collateral damage, the famous sentence in Agincourt was a poetic licence; The King should have say for England, Harry and St Edward…~:)
Nothing is sure nowadays…
I believe it was during the reign of King Edward III of England (reigned 1327–1377)
Strike For The South
12-05-2005, 23:51
St George is nice but yall just cant compete
https://img118.imageshack.us/img118/244/greatest20texan20ever7wo.th.jpg (https://img118.imageshack.us/my.php?image=greatest20texan20ever7wo.jpg)
TheSilverKnight
12-05-2005, 23:57
St George is nice but yall just cant compete
https://img118.imageshack.us/img118/244/greatest20texan20ever7wo.th.jpg (https://img118.imageshack.us/my.php?image=greatest20texan20ever7wo.jpg)
Pah. Not needed in a thread about England ~;)
Taffy_is_a_Taff
12-06-2005, 00:02
Templar Knight:
is that so, I'd also heard that it was changed in 1415.
Interesting.
Do you know why? Either of the reasons I've heard?
lancelot
12-06-2005, 00:04
This quote slays me-
Brentford manager Martin Allen said he felt the words on the flag were racially offensive.
Offended of the phrase- "Born in England Live in England Die in England." ???
It is Mr Allen who is the racist by assuming that the slogan (that has no mention of race in it) is trying to offend him somehow by bringing his prejudice to light.
And even this guy has got it wrong-
But Oldham manager Ronnie Moore, said: "How can that be racist? Maybe if it was being flown at a match in Wales or Scotland it could be considered racist but I can't see how that it is racist here - I don't know what he's going on about.
He is confusing nationality with race.
Ive said this soooo many times it makes me sick. To be a real race-ist, implies you believe your race is fundementally better than another, ie-biologically better. Race can only be talked about in biological terms, coz thats all race is, a part of biology.
Often skinhead idiots believe they are somehow intrinsically better, in that case the tag of racist does apply.
If you believe your culture is superior to another and that the other is greedy, criminal, close-minded, arrogant, whatever. This doesnt make you a racist, perhaps a jerk, but not a racist.
Because a person might happen to also be from a different biological 'creed' (for want of a better term at the mo) doesnt automatically make it about race.
Too often people scream 'race' before even looking at whats said (or in this case, blatantly NOT said)
Templar Knight
12-06-2005, 00:17
Templar Knight:
is that so, I'd also heard that it was changed in 1415.
Interesting.
Do you know why? Either of the reasons I've heard?
Edward the III took an active interest in orders of Knighthood, in particular the new order at the time, 'The Order of the Garter' in which George was its principal patron. I believe the emblem shows a knight slaying a dragon. It’s probable that Edward III proclaimed St George Patron Saint of England in 1348.
Taffy_is_a_Taff
12-06-2005, 00:22
Did the Order of the Garter choose George because of his military associations?
Templar Knight
12-06-2005, 00:27
Did the Order of the Garter choose George because of his military associations?
Im not 100% sure about the reasons behind it, but to me that seems likely.
bmolsson
12-06-2005, 03:03
Didn't know the English was racists. Actually are there any white englishmen left these days ?? ~;)
Tachikaze
12-06-2005, 03:20
My solution is to not display flags. If anyone waves a flag, they are opening themselves up to attack, ridicule, charges of racism, etc.
Alexanderofmacedon
12-06-2005, 03:59
I think the confederate flag could be percieved as rascist, but it's not that big a problem. They weren't just standing for slavery...
'A racist incident is any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person.'
Don't see how a flag can be racist, but this from one of the links provided is absolutly sickening, whoever came up with that definition should be hung drawn and quatered.
Alexanderofmacedon
12-06-2005, 04:09
And how old are you again?
Kaiser of Arabia
12-06-2005, 04:12
It's how you intend it to be, I think. I had a confederate flag on other forum as my avatar. It's just a symbolism; me being here in the south.
Now that flag, I think the saying is a shot at people who weren't born in England or live in England.
I was born in America, I live in America, I'm going to die in America.
Did I offend any non Americans with that?
Oh and short concise terms we have for non-Americans?
Commies.
Alexanderofmacedon
12-06-2005, 04:17
Kaiser, I just recently found out some events that happened in Munich. I'm surprised I didn't hear about them earlier, but I now know where that is.
...sorry for being off topic...
TheSilverKnight
12-06-2005, 04:18
I was born in America, I live in America, I'm going to die in America.
Did I offend any non Americans with that?
Oh and short concise terms we have for non-Americans?
Commies.
Explain how non-Americans are commies, if you wouldn't mind. I'd love to see how you came up with that one ~:rolleyes:
Mouzafphaerre
12-06-2005, 04:29
Explain how non-Americans are commies, if you wouldn't mind. I'd love to see how you came up with that one ~:rolleyes:
.
~:joker:
I thought commies were those hanging at the .com, being unable to evolve into ORGAHs.
.
Kanamori
12-06-2005, 05:24
Explain how non-Americans are commies, if you wouldn't mind. I'd love to see how you came up with that one ~:rolleyes:
Americans are the only ones truly for freedom. Anyone not for freedom is a commie. Therefore, non-Americans are commies. Seems simple to me~;p
That's probably the most common term for someone "unAmerican" though.~:joker:
Strike For The South
12-06-2005, 05:41
I think the confederate flag could be percieved as rascist, but it's not that big a problem. They weren't just standing for slavery...
Thats like saying the union jack didnt just stand for the tyranny and oppresion of millions for the sake of God Queen and country
Kekvit Irae
12-06-2005, 05:57
I thought commies were those hanging at the .com, being unable to evolve into ORGAHs.
Best quote of the day!
Kaiser of Arabia
12-06-2005, 06:23
Explain how non-Americans are commies, if you wouldn't mind. I'd love to see how you came up with that one ~:rolleyes:
Americans to view most non-Americans with some suspicion, this dates back to the Red Scares most likely. Henceforth, you are all commies.
Mouzafphaerre
12-06-2005, 06:32
.
A flag is nothing but a worthless piece of fabrique without its symbolisme. It's that symbolisme which gives a flag its meaning. Symbolisme is very much subject to subjective perception and deception, therefore can carry any meaning. Once a certain symbol is generally attributed to an object, that object becomes integral with that symbol and its symbolisme.
Thus became the poor svastika the sign of evil.
.
Kanamori
12-06-2005, 06:43
The burning cross a symbol of fear, the star of David a symbol for shame, and so many others:sad: More parties, less hate. A lovable commie, is still a commie, is still lovable~:cool:
~:grouphug:
InsaneApache
12-06-2005, 10:20
Thats like saying the union jack didnt just stand for the tyranny and oppresion of millions for the sake of God Queen and country
It's NOT the Union Jack, how many times? It's the Union Flag. The Union Jack is a small square shaped flag flown on ships.
The term Union Jack possibly dates from Queen Anne's time (reigned 1702-14), but its origin is uncertain. It may come from the 'jack-et' of the English or Scottish soldiers; or from the name of James I who originated the first union in 1603, in either its Latin or French form Jacobus or Jacques; or, as 'jack' once meant small, the name may be derived from a royal proclamation issued by Charles II that the Union Flag should be flown only by ships of the Royal Navy as a jack, a small flag at the bowsprit.
http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page398.asp
Americans to view most non-Americans with some suspicion, this dates back to the Red Scares most likely. Henceforth, you are all commies.
I'm a commie ~:confused: my dear fellow that's just absurd ~:joker:
Ja'chyra
12-06-2005, 10:37
Flags are not racist, they're flags ~:confused:
The people waving the flags may be however.
I was born in America, I live in America, I'm going to die in America.
Did I offend any non Americans with that?
Oh and short concise terms we have for non-Americans?
Commies.
I'll take that as the joke I hope it was, as it be as untrue as saying that all Americans are overweight warmongerers.
English assassin
12-06-2005, 11:17
Born in England Live in England Die in England."
Well, the reference to being "born in England" does seem anti immigrant at least?
@Efrem
'A racist incident is any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person.'
There's a lot of history behind this. The police cocked up a murder investigation by not considering that the motive could have been race. IIRC they went off on one about seeing if the victim was a drug dealer rather than checking alibis of local racists. There was a public enquiry and the phrase you quote is now used to describe when the police must investigate an incident as having a racial motivation. Of course after investigation if they decide that there was no racial element they are perfectly entitled to reach that view, its just the test for when they shiould have the possibility in mind.
As for the flag, no it is not racist and the more non racists use it the less it will seem to be racist. I've seen black England fans wearing it on their way to Wembley and I doubt anyone raised an eyebrow. It is nationalist but that is mainly directed at our celtic cousins and IMHO harmless enough at present.
lancelot
12-06-2005, 13:30
Well, the reference to being "born in England" does seem anti immigrant at least?
I wholeheartedly disagree. Your own personal opinion and bias colours that statement.
If I say I am goin here or I am doing this or I am from here for example, where exactly is the implication that I think anyone going somewhere else/doing something else/from another place, is a slight against them ???
Thats the trouble, people bring their own bias and pass it off as someone else's discrimination.
English assassin
12-06-2005, 13:46
Well my personal opinion colours all of my statements, though whether they amount to bias I will leave to the court of public opinion.
Obviously in some contexts (filling out a passport application form, for example) drawing attention to the fact that you were born in England is neutral. But as a slogan "born in England live in England die in England" is plainly exclusionary. If you WEREN'T born in England there's not much you can do now to joint the "Born in England" club, is there. And presumably the sloganner thinks the Born in England club is a good one or he wouldn't be so proud to be in it himself. Therefore it seems a reasonably assumption that the best he is going to say to an immigrant is "two out of three aint bad".
Personally I am glad I have more things in life to be proud of than where I was born, as it is one of those achievements over which we have no influence whatsoever.
Ja'chyra
12-06-2005, 14:16
Well my personal opinion colours all of my statements, though whether they amount to bias I will leave to the court of public opinion.
Obviously in some contexts (filling out a passport application form, for example) drawing attention to the fact that you were born in England is neutral. But as a slogan "born in England live in England die in England" is plainly exclusionary. If you WEREN'T born in England there's not much you can do now to joint the "Born in England" club, is there. And presumably the sloganner thinks the Born in England club is a good one or he wouldn't be so proud to be in it himself. Therefore it seems a reasonably assumption that the best he is going to say to an immigrant is "two out of three aint bad".
Personally I am glad I have more things in life to be proud of than where I was born, as it is one of those achievements over which we have no influence whatsoever.
I get what you're saying EA but no-one said that there's any type of club, all the guy did was make a personal statement. That's why I don't agree with the
'A racist incident is any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person.'
Byzantine Mercenary
12-06-2005, 16:05
what these national front people forget is that so called british people were themselves once immagrants from germany and france, Britain has had loads of immigration throughout its history
Geoffrey S
12-06-2005, 16:57
Neither the flag nor the use thereof are particularly racist. It can be inferred, but the use of the flag seems rather more like bad taste and nationalism gone a little too far than actual racism.
As for the flag, no it is not racist and the more non racists use it the less it will seem to be racist.
Interesting point. More use of flags should strengthen the national identity; it's not the waving of the flag that should offend, but the often extreme nationalistic thoughts behind it. Being proud of your country should not be something to be ashamed of, but often it is seen as such.
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Thus became the poor svastika the sign of evil.
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and still they use it everywhere in India...
ShadesWolf
12-06-2005, 17:50
Cambridge Dictionary
racism : the belief that people's qualities are influenced by their race and that the members of other races are not as good as the members of your own, or the resulting unfair treatment of members of other races
racist : someone who believes that other races are not as good as their own and therefore treats them unfairly
Therefore as a flag is not a person, its an inanimate object it cannot be racist.
Mouzafphaerre
12-06-2005, 18:06
.
and still they use it* everywhere in India...
That's good.
* svastika
.
No the flag is not racist.
A racist can wave the flag just like anyone else... but the flag remains just the symbol of England.
IIRC St George was possibly Turkish or Syrian in origin - and was a guy who stood up for minority interests (Christianity). So its not a good starting point for racists. Having said that the racists I have met don't know their arses from their elbows anyway.
It's not a racist flag and it's not a racist country. Yes there are racists here, just like there are criminals, scroungers and other vermin.
TheSilverKnight
12-06-2005, 23:47
Americans to view most non-Americans with some suspicion, this dates back to the Red Scares most likely. Henceforth, you are all commies.
Oh boy. Thanks Capo. I'm obviously a god-less, Stalin-hugging, Lenin-worshipping commie then who believes Americans should be ground into the earth and your capitalism should be done away with. Thanks a lot for your great generalisation of the rest of the world. I'd like to see what other bullocks you've come up with for the rest of the world. ~:joker:
Soulforged
12-07-2005, 00:24
Oh boy. Thanks Capo. I'm obviously a god-less, Stalin-hugging, Lenin-worshipping commie then who believes Americans should be ground into the earth and your capitalism should be done away with. Thanks a lot for your great generalisation of the rest of the world. I'd like to see what other bullocks you've come up with for the rest of the world. ~:joker:
This is just absurd, but anyway, I don't think that it's an insult being called communist. Just a thought (I think it's best than being called capitalist).
TheSilverKnight
12-07-2005, 00:29
This is just absurd, but anyway, I don't think that it's an insult being called communist. Just a thought (I think it's best than being called capitalist).
Cierto, pero si usted advirtió la etiqueta de [sarcasm], entonces estoy seguro usted verá estoy tonto ~;)
I have nothing wrong with Capitalism, or Communism, but the fact that Capo thinks everyone outside the USA is a communist is rather close minded and offensive.
Kralizec
12-07-2005, 01:56
Because we ARE. Duh! ~;)
mystic brew
12-07-2005, 02:00
A racist incident is any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person
just to further clear this up...
this phrase, clumsily spoken, is that the police are under an obligation to investigate any incident where a person complains of racism as a possibly racist incident.
Under police statistics, 'racist incidents' are how these are reported to them. the number of actual racist incidents, once investigated by the police, is substantially lower.
It's one of those phrases that has been used in a specific way, but when circulated out of context seem wrong.
Alexanderofmacedon
12-07-2005, 03:03
Thats like saying the union jack didnt just stand for the tyranny and oppresion of millions for the sake of God Queen and country
Yeah, whatever, I'm trying to admit that the flag you hold so dearly isn't that bad, but whatever...
Kaiser of Arabia
12-07-2005, 03:12
Oh boy. Thanks Capo. I'm obviously a god-less, Stalin-hugging, Lenin-worshipping commie then who believes Americans should be ground into the earth and your capitalism should be done away with. Thanks a lot for your great generalisation of the rest of the world. I'd like to see what other bullocks you've come up with for the rest of the world. ~:joker:
I'm not saying that's what I beleive, it's just a general concensous of people wiht short conciese names for broad groups like that.
We have 'em for individual nations, PM on demand ~:)
EDIT: Soulforged, only a communist would say that ~D
The masses should think more rational and give less about symbolism.
If I run around with a freaking flag of Germany with a svastika on it and a few burning crosses and a little confederate flag because I think it looks cool, am I a racist?
For example, I find that the old german flag with black, red and white, looks far better than the new one. Also I think crosses and svastikas look neat, does that make me a neo-nazi christian?
I don't give a damn what people think symbolizes what. That's as pointless as trying to interprete Eminem songs.
I'm not saying that's what I beleive, it's just a general concensous of people wiht short conciese names for broad groups like that.
We have 'em for individual nations, PM on demand ~:)
EDIT: Soulforged, only a communist would say that ~D
You do realise Mcarthyism was a bad thing right ?
King Henry V
12-07-2005, 12:18
I was born in America, I live in America, I'm going to die in America.
Did I offend any non Americans with that?
Oh and short concise terms we have for non-Americans?
Commies.
What, you mean like this?
https://img210.imageshack.us/img210/1045/america1hc.gif
Prodigal
12-07-2005, 14:39
Got bored readin halfway down page 2, so soz if its been said already.
For the record mainland UK has 3 distinct flags, the coolest is the Welsh one btw.
St George, watch some Barcelona football matches, the St George cross flags aren't being laid out by expats from the UK, he's also the patron saint there too.
The phrase "Born in England Live in England Die in England" not really offensive to be honest, makes me pleased that the stupid little oik won't be going abroad.
I can understand why some would find it offensive, but then, I find their simpering "pc" agenda's as offensive as the people who write such trite little "patriotic" slogans on flags.
lancelot
12-07-2005, 14:41
What, you mean like this?
https://img210.imageshack.us/img210/1045/america1hc.gif
That is classic! ~:cheers:
lancelot
12-07-2005, 14:43
I find their simpering "pc" agenda's as offensive as the people who write such trite little "patriotic" slogans on flags.
Exactly.
That flag bears the emblem of the Templars right ? So what do you think, were the Templars something to be proud of ?
Just asking, no offence intended.
King Ragnar
12-07-2005, 18:43
The flag is in now way racist, nor what was said about dieing and living in england. If that guy wants to be proud to be english like myself let him express it, and if anyone is offended by it, there is nothing they can do, we live in democracy thus he has freedom of speech, to say what he wants.
King Henry V
12-08-2005, 08:21
It's called satire...the equivalent of calling the rest of the world commies.~;p
I love the phrase 'Here Be Dragons'. I'm actually smiling as I hear it in my mind.
I don't think an image can be racist, even if it's an image of a mob of guys in white hoods lynching a black man. It is what it is and it depicts what it depicts.
lancelot
12-08-2005, 13:47
That flag bears the emblem of the Templars right ? So what do you think, were the Templars something to be proud of ?
Just asking, no offence intended.
The Templars were founded originally to protect christian pilgramages for raiders, not wage wars, so I dont see anything wrong with them, no.
And even when they did fight in wars, they were hardly exclusive, so again, not really any problems there.
Byzantine Mercenary
12-08-2005, 13:57
The templars were no worse than the other christian orders of their time, they got a bad reputation because the king of france at the time wanted all their money and so called them heretics and tortured a load of them so that they would support this
“The templars were no worse than the other christian orders of their time, they got a bad reputation because the king of france at the time wanted all their money and so called them heretics and tortured a load of them so that they would support this”
Not only. Phillip II wanted to unite the kingdom and refused any power in the power. Remember he was the one who fought and won Bouvines (27th of July 1214). In succeeding that, he secured his dynasty on the throne, obliging the Holly Romans Imperator Otto II to forget all his dreams about France (future) but more importantly, it was the end of the Plantagenet’s dream (John Lackland) of the French throne, at least for one century. The French Chivalry got her reputation in this battle… His son even become King of England for a short period, but lost all in the battle at Lincoln (20th of May 1416) and forced to accept a small amount of money in return of the Crown of England.~D
Anyway, the Templar effused a fusion with the Hospitaliers (and other order) in order to prepare a new crusade. Jacques de Molay was scared to loose his job. The French King didn’t appreciate and the 13th of October 1307, Friday the, all Templar are in jail.
The 3rd of May 1312, the Pope allocated the Templar’s fortune to the Order of the Hospitaliers. One year later this order re-paid the French King of 200,000 Pounds.~:cheers:
The Templars were the victims of the French Kings (Capetiens) will to be free from all Church influence…
Irony of history, his daughter, married with the English King Edouard III will give the pretext for the English King to claim the throne of France of the “Chef” of his wife, all Phillip’s sons dead without heirs….~D
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