Get in line, Columbus!

[Don Corleone]

Yet again, it is being theorized that Christopher Columbus was not actually the 1st explorer sent by a developed nation in the Eastern Hemisphere to 'discover' the Americas. This time, it turns out, the Chinese claim their admiral, Zheng He (poor guy was a eunuch, what else to do with his free time?) sailed across the Pacific and discovered the Americas around 1418. Maybe I can find some magical potion to regrow 'em... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4609074.stm)

Other explorers that have been offered as possibly 'beating Columbus to the Punch': St. Brendan (legend has it he sailed the North Atlantic in a currach, an ancient Irish leather canoe) and Leif Ericsson (sailing from Iceland in a drakkar). I believe Leif Ericsson could have (and did) make it to what's now NewFoundland, but I have a hard time imagining any leather canoe tough enough to make a trans-Atlantic voyage, AND be large enough for supplies. And of course, Thor Hyerdahl claims the Ancient Egyptians made it to Central America somewhere around 700B.C. Comments? Opinions? Fighting words? What dastard did the unthinkable and deserves to be flogged with a wet noodle for unleashing the horrors of the New World on the old?

Sidenote: Italian Americans and other Columbus fans can always take comfort in the fact that Columbus was the first to establish any sort of permanent settlement here.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Meh, Zheng He could have travelled to the americas; the Chinese fleets at that time were massive; he sailed with 10's of thousands of men. I don't think there is real evidence of him having reached them though.

I see no reason to be a fan of any of them, whether they discovered America or not.

[drone]

I picked Ericsson, but if you want to be really technical, the native Americans supposedly traveled to the continent from Asia across the Bering Strait. So they would be the first Asians to come here.

[Don Corleone]

Yes, but they weren't departing an advanced civilization. They were barely up to stone age technology when they crossed the Berring land bridge.

[Quid]

I would like to believe that the Phoenicians travelled to the Americas first. Other than their boats (ships) being quite seaworthy and would probably have made it across the Atlantic, I have no proof whatsoever for it.

Quid

[Gawain of Orkeny]

There was show about this on the History channel and they claim the first americans came from france near the end of the ice age by crossing an ice bridge that existed then and settled in what is now known as Virginia.

[Geoffrey S]

I'm pretty sure Zhang He got there some time before Columbus, although I may be placing too much stock in what little I've read of the 1421 book; as for the others, I'm less certain if they actually made it to the Americas.

[Don Corleone]

Well, they have found a couple of rune stones and I believe a viking tomb in Labrador, (mabe NewFoundland, not sure) so if it wasn't Leif, it was somebody that looked and talked and acted a lot like him.

I'm afraid I don't know enough about the Zheng He story to say if it's probable, but even if it is, he would have been 400 years behind Leif.

[Watchman]

I would like to believe that the Phoenicians travelled to the Americas first. Other than their boats (ships) being quite seaworthy and would probably have made it across the Atlantic, I have no proof whatsoever for it.

QuidI *seriously* doubt if vessels that rate as "quite seaworthy" on the Med are the stock you cross oceans with. It's not like the Phoenicians had any real incentive to develop their shipbuilding in that direction anyway. Put this way: the only two seas I know of where the galley ever saw extensive use are the Mediterranean and (to a much smaller degree) the Baltic, both "closed" and fairly calm "inner seas".

History tells us the galley, although perfectly serviceable on its own waters, is *not* something you want to tackle an open ocean in.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I would say the Norsemen made it to North America first but there is quite a good chance Irish monks under Brendan made it. Also, Madoc and the Welsh colony theories are quite sound as well.

[BDC]

Those white people who made it to America before the Native Americans, and now cause a lot of issues when their ancient remains are uncovered.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Prince Madog

Welsh guy.

:2thumbsup:

the man who provided the justification for John Dee's "British Empire"
(1604 I think).

I guess the theory goes like this. Gwynedd had links to Dublin. Dublin at the time still had big Scandinavian links. So it's plausible that Madog could have done it using those nice Scandinavian boats.

And then there are all the stories about him.

I don't believe it but I do believe it is possible.

[Csargo]

I think its kinda sad that the guy was given credit for discovering america doesn't even have a single vote.
I just thought that this is pretty funny.~D :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Red Peasant]

I *seriously* doubt if vessels that rate as "quite seaworthy" on the Med are the stock you cross oceans with. It's not like the Phoenicians had any real incentive to develop their shipbuilding in that direction anyway. Put this way: the only two seas I know of where the galley ever saw extensive use are the Mediterranean and (to a much smaller degree) the Baltic, both "closed" and fairly calm "inner seas".

History tells us the galley, although perfectly serviceable on its own waters, is *not* something you want to tackle an open ocean in.


By the seventh/sixth century BC the Phoenicians and Etruscans were trading in larger, twin-masted vessels, not too dissimilar in general design to the later medieval craft. They weren't galleys. However, I still wouldn't have liked to cross the ocean in one. :dizzy2:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Those white people who made it to America before the Native Americans, and now cause a lot of issues when their ancient remains are uncovered.

Those are the ones Im talking about.


I think its kinda sad that the guy was given credit for discovering america doesn't even have a single vote.
I just thought that this is pretty funny

And that it was named after this guy

Amerigo Vespucci (http://geography.about.com/cs/historicalgeog/a/amerigo.htm)

[Samurai Waki]

Personally I think Leif was the first person from a more advanced civilization to reach the Americas, not only is there physical proof that some vikings did settle for a bit in Newfoundland, it predates that of any other non-native cultures that had an impact in America. Apparently the Sioux were quite fond of Viking Artifacts, considering that many were found in their early tribal villages in Northern Minnesota after they were pushed into North Dakota and Montana.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I wanted to vote Columbus, since I'm 4th degree KofC.

I wanted to vote Sanctus Brendan, since I'm of Irish ancestry.

I wanted to vote Leif Ericson, since the best historical/archeological evidence has been found for that claim.

So, instead, I voted other -- which I am stealing from a Dirk Pitt novel:

Odysseus of Ithaca.

This theory takes as it's premise the idea that Troy was not a power in Asia minor, but was, instead, a key source of tin (vital to bronze age metalwork, Helen was either made up by story tellers or used as an excuse) -- Great Britain (specifically the SE region [Kent/Anglia]. After the win, Ody was forced by weather North and ended up crossig the Atlantic, heading down the eastern seaboard and, after many mishaps etc. returning after a 10 year voyage. He would have been sailing in an early form of kyrenia, not a bireme, and hence would have had a better chance to make such a double crossing.

[Slyspy]

Alright then. Who was the first to arrive, settle and then go home and shout about it?

[solypsist]

the americas were grand central station centuries before columbus. the problem is there just wasnt anything worth trading, so things didnt continue. this is why every few years a paleontologiest digs up an old skull or something that "doesnt belong" and so the debate continues.

i have read 1421 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006054094X/qid=1137208248/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-9357027-0915814?n=507846&s=books&v=glance) and the evidence is very compelling. but really, this is the sort of thing one can expect: when tipping over sacred cows there are immedietly people who rush to stand them again.

[bmolsson]

Yes, but they weren't departing an advanced civilization. They were barely up to stone age technology when they crossed the Berring land bridge.

I would argue that the world still haven't seen and advanced civilizations.... ~;)

[GoreBag]

Vespucci arrived before Columbus did anyway. Ericsson is proven to have arrived. He made several trips and made use of the large trees growing where he landed, which was in Northern Quebec, Labrado, Newfoundland and New Brunswick. Leif's brother was killed fighting natives after he led an attack on a native village and killed a number of them in their sleep.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Vespucci arrived before Columbus did anyway

Not unless my prior link is totally wrong.


Vespucci was born in 1454 to a prominent family in Florence, Italy. As a young man he read widely, collected books and maps, and even studied under Michaelangelo. He began working for local bankers and was sent to Spain in 1492 to look after his employer's business interests.

While in Spain, Amerigo Vespucci began working on ships and ultimately went on his first expedition as a navigator in 1499. This expedition reached the mouth of the Amazon River and explored the coast of South America. Vespucci was able to calculate how far west he had traveled by observing the conjunction of Mars and the Moon.

[Leet Eriksson]

The book itself is pretty fictional, 1421 i mean, the author doesn't use solid sources. I know some chinese friends, and they told me it has no solid claims.

As for the first who discovered America, its most definitly Leif.

[Tachikaze]

I am convinced that the Norsemen settled for a time in North America. Since I see little reason to believe another post-stone-age Eurasian visited the Americans before them, I would vote for the Norsemen.

I am also pretty certain that the Phoenicians were the first to sail around Africa, which means there's a chance they could have sailed the Atlantic. I don't think they did.

No one has mentioned the claims by Afrocentrists about West Africans reaching South America before the man we call "Columbus".

I'm pretty irritated by the nationalism that gets involved in this question. It's pretty ridiculous and annoying. The more a person who identifies themself from a particular nationality claims for one of their "ancestors" being first, I believe it less. I roll my eyes like this~:rolleyes: and sometimes like this:dizzy2:

One such annoying example are people who are either Italian or call themselves Italian who take pride in "Columbus". To start with, the nation of Italy didn't exist until the 1870s. Before then, it was separate principalities. Genoa is in northwestern Italy, related as much to France as any of the Italian states. Only a small minority of Italians or their ancestors are/were from there. Most Italian-Americans are decended from Sicilians, I believe. About the only relationship between Genoa and Sicily in the 15th Century was an Italic language. So, it's like me, an English-speaking American, taking pride in the exploits of an Australian explorer.

Everyone alive today, no matter where they're from, is very, very far removed from "Columbus". They have no meaningful relationship with him, and should have no pride. He has millions and millions of descendents all over the world, just as anyone else that far back in history who lived long enough to procreate.

[GoreBag]

Not unless my prior link is totally wrong.

My mistake.

America isn't named after Vespucci, though (you'd think it'd be called Vespuccia). 'America' is thought to come from 'Ameryk', the name of a Dutch cartographer.

[InsaneApache]

My mistake.

America isn't named after Vespucci, though (you'd think it'd be called Vespuccia). 'America' is thought to come from 'Ameryk', the name of a Dutch cartographer.

I think your getting confused with the Welsh trader Ap Meryk who partially financed Cabots expedition to the New World and is now generally accepted to have contributed his name to the new continent.

[Slyspy]

I've decided to vote Columbus since his discovery was the only useful one, the one which gave us the Americas we know today. A barely documented Chinese voyage smells of politics to me. Chinese junks have never been especially seaworthy, being designed mostly for coastal waters, island hopping and river trade. I suppose if you sent enough of them some might survive a Pacific crossing. I'm not quite sure why they would try though. The Norse settlement in Newfoundland, while a reasonable possibility, would have been short-lived and no else seemed to know about it. The Irish monk thing seems laughable. A canoe! Legends are proof of nothing. I also doubt whether any ancient craft designed for the calm, tideless Med would be capable of a transatlantic crossing.

[Ironside]

As for those who have red 1421, give me the

Size of the expidition.
Last harbour leaving and first harbour entering, when back.
Why they even tried this expedition.

Voted for the vikings, as it's actually confirmed that they've been there. So even if they were anyone before that, it was basically away (by mistake) and back.

[Just A Girl]

Hell id say The native americans 1st discoverd America,
But there ya go,

We need to go back to prehistoric times to find out who actualy went from africa to America.

But you aint gonna manage that.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Sidenote: Italian Americans and other Columbus fans can always take comfort in the fact that Columbus was the first to establish any sort of permanent settlement here.More than a sidenote, this is the relevant criterium.

The America's have had tens of millions of permanent inhabitants ever since the ice age. So the title of 'discovery of America' in the sense of like the first man on the moon goes to the native Americans.

What's left is the title of 'discovery of America' in the meaning of starting permanent settlement and an enduring link between the old and new world. This one goes to Columbus' voyage, no doubt.

It is not relevant how much (or better: how real) archeological evidence is unearthed in the Americas of contact with Phoenicians, Egyptians, Polynesians, west-Africans, Vikings, Chinese or what not. None of you speak Phoenician, Old-Norse or Chinese now, do you?

[Paul Peru]

There are some fascinating theories, of course, and it would be cool if they were corroborated, but so far evidence points towards the Norse being first.

[Tribesman]

an ancient Irish leather canoe
Since when has a curragh been a canoe ?

The Irish monk thing seems laughable. A canoe!
Yeah a canoe ????:inquisitive:

Edit to add , Tim Severin sailed a currach to New York from Ireland in the mid'70s you might catch a repeat of the documentary about it on National Geographic .

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

People should read the Severin articles, very interesting stuff. I don't want to sound rude but Slyp you don't seem to know what are on about mate.

[Red Peasant]

A curragh in its element:

http://www.michaelbradley.info/articles/images/brendan2_curragh.jpg

They are certainly capable of crossing the Atlantic, after all it has been achieved in the modern era in one-man rowing boats, but these people knew what was on the other side, the Celts of the sixth century didn't.

However, I can understand and believe in the the nordic achievement because they had even better ocean-going craft, a long and successful record as explorers and mariners, and they were feeling their way along the northern margins of the Atlantic, logically extending their knowledge and skills. There doesn't seem to be anything comparable in the Celtic tradition.

[Tachikaze]

an ancient Irish leather canoe
Since when has a curragh been a canoe ?

The Irish monk thing seems laughable. A canoe!
Yeah a canoe ????:inquisitive:

Edit to add , Tim Severin sailed a currach to New York from Ireland in the mid'70s you might catch a repeat of the documentary about it on National Geographic .
If everyone starts claiming their ancestors were the first Eurasians to the Americas, the Chinese or Indians of southern Asia will win.

I have a lot of German ancestry; I guess I'd better make a claim for Germany (which didn't exist until the 1870s).

[Samurai Waki]

I'd put more trust into this baby

http://courses.nus.edu.sg/course/elltankw/Viking_longboat.jpg

[A.Saturnus]

I´ve voted for Ericson. It´s proven that Brendan could have gone there but whether he did is highly uncertain.


I have a lot of German ancestry; I guess I'd better make a claim for Germany (which didn't exist until the 1870s).

Then you´d have to explain why it was called IInd Reich then ~;)

[Watchman]

Weren't the Vikings about the first ones with good enough navigation tools for a reliable crossing, though ? I seem to recall reading something like that once.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

I do believe is was someone who went around the south part of present day South America.

I don't remember the name and it's all very vague.

[Tribesman]

I'd put more trust into this baby

But the monks in the currachs beat the longboats to Iceland didn't they .

Anyhow it was the hebrews/early christians that crossed the atlantic first , ask the Mormons .

[Slyspy]

OK. So those things are large canoes with sails. My apologies. And some guy in the 70s did the same trip. Well done him. Still don't think any Irish monks of yesteryear did it first though. I'll stick with Columbus since we have definite proof of his crossing of the Atlantic and settlement of the New World. All the others are just stories occasionally reinforced with a scattering of evidence.

Anyway I have documentary evidence at least as well corroborated as 1421 to say that Asterix was the first sea captain to reach the New World, but he didn't stay long. Something about in-laws...

[Strike For The South]

Why would the American public school system lie to me? so coulmbus

[AntiochusIII]

Why would the American public school system lie to me? so coulmbus'Cause they're EEVIIIILLLL!!!!

*puts on tinfoil hat*

Actually, strike, at least in Nevada, the U.S. History Honors course textbook gives the Leif Erikson theory as much credit as Columbus' voyage. Strangely though, the A.P. one does not mention Erikson himself, only that there are evidences of the Norse settlements found in Newfoundland.

However, it is much agreed upon that Columbus' voyage is the one that sparks the Columbian Exchange, the Conquistadors' adventures (massacre, in other words), and the European colonies on the Continents.

[Actually, the Mormons went there first. Long before they even recognized their Mormon-ness. Somethin' about the Deseret being behind the founding of the Iroquois Confederation and the Aztec Empire...]

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Why would the American public school system lie to me? so coulmbus

Its all in what discover means. The vikings didnt tell anybody so they dont count. It reminds me of Dr Strangelove.


Dr. Strangelove: Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you *keep* it a *secret*! Why didn't you tell the world, EH?

[Watchman]

"We were planning to in next week's Party meeting", wasn't it ?

[Adrian II]

The Economist has an article about the recent discovery of a map in China that seems to support the Menzies theory -- if it is not a fake... Since the paper's accessibility is erratic I copy it here, including my imageshacked copy of the map taken from the magazine's website.



https://img464.imageshack.us/img464/8972/ecdc125x342rw.gif (https://imageshack.us)

China beat Columbus to it, perhaps

Jan 12th, 2006

An ancient map that strongly suggests Chinese seamen were first round the world


https://img359.imageshack.us/img359/879/china1418worldmap8kz.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

THE brave seamen whose great voyages of exploration opened up the world are iconic figures in European history. Columbus found the New World in 1492; Dias discovered the Cape of Good Hope in 1488; and Magellan set off to circumnavigate the world in 1519. However, there is one difficulty with this confident assertion of European mastery: it may not be true.

It seems more likely that the world and all its continents were discovered by a Chinese admiral named Zheng He, whose fleets roamed the oceans between 1405 and 1435. His exploits, which are well documented in Chinese historical records, were written about in a book which appeared in China around 1418 called “The Marvellous Visions of the Star Raft”.

Next week, in Beijing and London, fresh and dramatic evidence is to be revealed to bolster Zheng He's case. It is a copy, made in 1763, of a map, dated 1418, which contains notes that substantially match the descriptions in the book. “It will revolutionise our thinking about 15th-century world history,” says Gunnar Thompson, a student of ancient maps and early explorers.

The map (shown above) will be unveiled in Beijing on January 16th and at the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich a day later. Six Chinese characters in the upper right-hand corner of the map say this is a “general chart of the integrated world”. In the lower left-hand corner is a note that says the chart was drawn by Mo Yi Tong, imitating a world chart made in 1418 which showed the barbarians paying tribute to the Ming emperor, Zhu Di. The copyist distinguishes what he took from the original from what he added himself.

The map was bought for about $500 from a small Shanghai dealer in 2001 by Liu Gang, one of the most eminent commercial lawyers in China, who collects maps and paintings. Mr Liu says he knew it was significant, but thought it might be a modern fake. He showed his acquisition to five experienced collectors, who agreed that the traces of vermin on the bamboo paper it is written on, and the de-pigmentation of ink and colours, indicated that the map was more than 100 years old.

Mr Liu was unsure of its meaning, and asked specialists in ancient Chinese history for their advice, but none, he says, was forthcoming. Then, last autumn, he read “1421: The Year China Discovered the World”, a book written in 2003 by Gavin Menzies, in which the author makes the controversial claim that Zheng He circumnavigated the world, discovering America on the way. Mr Menzies, who is a former submariner in the Royal Navy and a merchant banker, is an amateur historian and his theory met with little approval from professionals. But it struck a chord: his book became a bestseller and his 1421 website is very popular. In any event, his arguments convinced Mr Liu that his map was a relic of Zheng He's earlier voyages.

The detail on the copy of the map is remarkable. The outlines of Africa, Europe and the Americas are instantly recognisable. It shows the Nile with two sources. The north-west passage appears to be free of ice. But the inaccuracies, also, are glaring. California is shown as an island; the British Isles do not appear at all. The distance from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean is ten times greater than it ought to be. Australia is in the wrong place (though cartographers no longer doubt that Australia and New Zealand were discovered by Chinese seamen centuries before Captain Cook arrived on the scene).

The commentary on the map, which seems to have been drawn from the original, is written in clear Chinese characters which can still be easily read. Of the west coast of America, the map says: “The skin of the race in this area is black-red, and feathers are wrapped around their heads and waists.” Of the Australians, it reports: “The skin of the aborigine is also black. All of them are naked and wearing bone articles around their waists.”

But this remarkable precision, rather than the errors, is what critics of the Menzies theory are likely to use to question the authenticity of the 1418 map. Mr Menzies and his followers are naturally extremely keen to establish that the 1763 copy is not a forgery and that it faithfully represents the 1418 original. This would lend weighty support to their thesis: that China had indeed discovered America by (if not actually in) 1421. Mass spectrography analysis to date the copied map is under way at Waikato University in New Zealand, and the results will be announced in February. But even if affirmative, this analysis is of limited importance since it can do no more than date the copyist's paper and inks.

Five academic experts on ancient charts note that the 1418 map puts together information that was available piecemeal in China from earlier nautical maps, going back to the 13th century and Kublai Khan, who was no mean explorer himself. They believe it is authentic.

The map makes good estimates of the latitude and longitude of much of the world, and recognises that the earth is round. “The Chinese were almost certainly aware of longitude before Zheng He set sail,” says Robert Cribbs of California State University. They certainly assumed the world was round. “The format of the map is totally consistent with the level of knowledge that we should expect of royal Chinese geographers following the voyages of Zheng He,” says Mr Thompson.

Moreover, some of the errors in the 1418 map soon turned up in European maps, the most striking being California drawn as an island. The Portuguese are aware of a world map drawn before 1420 by a cartographer named Albertin di Virga, which showed Africa and the Americas. Since no Portuguese seamen had yet discovered those places, the most obvious source for the information seems to be European copies of Chinese maps.

But this is certainly not a unanimous view among the experts, with many of the fiercest critics in China itself. Wang Tai-Peng, a scholarly journalist in Vancouver who does not doubt that the Chinese explored the world early in the 15th century (he has written about a visit by Chinese ambassadors to Florence in 1433), doubts whether Zheng He's ships landed in North America. Mr Wang also claims that Zheng He's navigation maps were drawn in a totally different Chinese map-making tradition. “Until the 1418 map is scientifically authenticated, we still have to take it with a grain of salt,” he says.

Most forgeries are driven by a commercial imperative, especially when the market for ancient maps is booming, as it is now. The Library of Congress recently paid $10m for a copy of a 1507 world map by Martin Waldseemuller, a German cartographer. But Mr Liu says he is not a seller: “The map is part of my life,” he claims.

The consequences of the discovery of this map could be considerable. If it does indeed prove to be the first map of the world, “the history of New World discovery will have to be rewritten,” claims Mr Menzies. How much does this matter? Showing that the world was first explored by Chinese rather than European seamen would be a major piece of historical revisionism. But there is more to history than that. It is no less interesting that the Chinese, having discovered the extent of the world, did not exploit it, politically or commercially. After all, Columbus's discovery of America led to exploitation and then development by Europeans which, 500 years later, made the United States more powerful than China had ever been.

Link (http://www.economist.com/books/PrinterFriendly.cfm?story_id=5381851)

[Husar]

Viking power!:viking:

[Incongruous]

Smells like propaganda

[Samurai Waki]

Smells like propaganda

Yup.

[RabidGibbon]

One point about that articale is that it claims the original was made in 1418, which if I recall is when the 6 or so expeditions under Zheng He set off, they took their time about coming back (Which I seem to recall is the books biggest arguement - what were they doing at sea for so long). As the Title of 1421 suggests the discoveries weren't made in 1418.

Of course maybe the writers of the article just got something confused? But it does look far far too accurate, also did the Chinese think the world was round in 14xx? The shape of the chart looks like a modern atlas. I honestly don't have a clue but I'm sure someone here does. Or maybe they thought the world was two circles joined together.

The Ice packs around Antartica and the Artic seem very drawn back (North and south respectively) which is one of the assertions 1421 makes (Which I assume is backed up with evidence) but I do wonder if the Chinese would have bothered to chart the coast of Antartica in such detail, although one of the sub-expeditions is alleged to have travelled along the northen coast of Russia/Siberia. (Which I though sounded kind of daft).

[Hurin_Rules]

There is absolutely no doubt that Vikings made it to North America. The historical site at L'anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland is a world historical site that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Vikings were there:

http://www.pc.gc.ca/lhn-nhs/nl/meadows/index_e.asp


Menzies book, 1421, has a lot of holes in it. You can read about many of them here:

http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jwh/15.2/finlay.html

[solypsist]

this is indeed the whole issue in a nutshell. look up the etymology of the word "discover" - of which Columbus is credited for, specifically.

/thread



Its all in what discover means. The vikings didnt tell anybody so they dont count. It reminds me of Dr Strangelove.

[Papewaio]

Of course maybe the writers of the article just got something confused? But it does look far far too accurate, also did the Chinese think the world was round in 14xx? The shape of the chart looks like a modern atlas. I honestly don't have a clue but I'm sure someone here does. Or maybe they thought the world was two circles joined together.

The Ancient Greeks new the Earth was round. As did the Europeans of CC time... what CC contended was that he could sail from Europe to India... which he could not on the ships he had, he was lucky there was a continent between him and the Pacific... because if he tried to sail that they would have run out of supplies.


“The skin of the race in this area is black-red, and feathers are wrapped around their heads and waists.” Of the Australians, it reports: “The skin of the aborigine is also black. All of them are naked and wearing bone articles around their waists.”

Why would an ancient scroll have the same term for aborigines as modern times? Why wouldn't the translation of that segment be "The skin of the race in this area is black" if it is a direct quote of the source.

If the map actually states aborogines... then it is quite likely a forgery.

[Incongruous]

Perhaps it should be the first descivery of America by Modern Eurasian peoples?

[Tachikaze]

The Ancient Greeks new the Earth was round. As did the Europeans of CC time... what CC contended was that he could sail from Europe to India... which he could not on the ships he had, he was lucky there was a continent between him and the Pacific... because if he tried to sail that they would have run out of supplies.



Why would an ancient scroll have the same term for aborigines as modern times? Why wouldn't the translation of that segment be "The skin of the race in this area is black" if it is a direct quote of the source.

If the map actually states aborogines... then it is quite likely a forgery.
Perhaps it's the generic meaning of aborigine, rather than the often capitalized term we give specifically to pre-European Australians.

[Hurin_Rules]

The map looks fake to me.

Remember, it is supposedly made in 1418. At that point, the Chinese had mapped the entire northern coastline of Asia? There are no viking, British or continental reports of massive fleets of Chinese popping up out of the North Sea. Believe me, they would have reported that, having just suffered from the Mongol invasions. Also, they mapped the entire northern coastline of North America? It was not even navigable at that time, due to the mini-ice age of 1400-1700. They would have had to leave their ships behind and travlelled by sled. Also, they completely navigated South America as well?

I find it suspicious that no one has seen the actual map itself. All we've seen is a copy of a copy-- that is, a copy of the version the guy says is in his vault, which itself is an 18th century copy of the alleged original. Is it not conceivable, then, that when the map was written in the 18th century, the author used the most up-to-date geographical information of the time to make a new map, rather than rely on a map he knew was outdated?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

This is a Monastery thread.