Get in line, Columbus!

[Don Corleone]

Yet again, it is being theorized that Christopher Columbus was not actually the 1st explorer sent by a developed nation in the Eastern Hemisphere to 'discover' the Americas. This time, it turns out, the Chinese claim their admiral, Zheng He (poor guy was a eunuch, what else to do with his free time?) sailed across the Pacific and discovered the Americas around 1418. Maybe I can find some magical potion to regrow 'em...

Other explorers that have been offered as possibly 'beating Columbus to the Punch': St. Brendan (legend has it he sailed the North Atlantic in a currach, an ancient Irish leather canoe) and Leif Ericsson (sailing from Iceland in a drakkar). I believe Leif Ericsson could have (and did) make it to what's now NewFoundland, but I have a hard time imagining any leather canoe tough enough to make a trans-Atlantic voyage, AND be large enough for supplies. And of course, Thor Hyerdahl claims the Ancient Egyptians made it to Central America somewhere around 700B.C. Comments? Opinions? Fighting words? What dastard did the unthinkable and deserves to be flogged with a wet noodle for unleashing the horrors of the New World on the old?

Sidenote: Italian Americans and other Columbus fans can always take comfort in the fact that Columbus was the first to establish any sort of permanent settlement here.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Meh, Zheng He could have travelled to the americas; the Chinese fleets at that time were massive; he sailed with 10's of thousands of men. I don't think there is real evidence of him having reached them though.

I see no reason to be a fan of any of them, whether they discovered America or not.

[drone]

I picked Ericsson, but if you want to be really technical, the native Americans supposedly traveled to the continent from Asia across the Bering Strait. So they would be the first Asians to come here.

[Don Corleone]

Yes, but they weren't departing an advanced civilization. They were barely up to stone age technology when they crossed the Berring land bridge.

[Quid]

I would like to believe that the Phoenicians travelled to the Americas first. Other than their boats (ships) being quite seaworthy and would probably have made it across the Atlantic, I have no proof whatsoever for it.

Quid

[Gawain of Orkeny]

There was show about this on the History channel and they claim the first americans came from france near the end of the ice age by crossing an ice bridge that existed then and settled in what is now known as Virginia.

[Geoffrey S]

I'm pretty sure Zhang He got there some time before Columbus, although I may be placing too much stock in what little I've read of the 1421 book; as for the others, I'm less certain if they actually made it to the Americas.

[Don Corleone]

Well, they have found a couple of rune stones and I believe a viking tomb in Labrador, (mabe NewFoundland, not sure) so if it wasn't Leif, it was somebody that looked and talked and acted a lot like him.

I'm afraid I don't know enough about the Zheng He story to say if it's probable, but even if it is, he would have been 400 years behind Leif.

[Watchman]

I would like to believe that the Phoenicians travelled to the Americas first. Other than their boats (ships) being quite seaworthy and would probably have made it across the Atlantic, I have no proof whatsoever for it.

Quid

I *seriously* doubt if vessels that rate as "quite seaworthy" on the Med are the stock you cross oceans with. It's not like the Phoenicians had any real incentive to develop their shipbuilding in that direction anyway. Put this way: the only two seas I know of where the galley ever saw extensive use are the Mediterranean and (to a much smaller degree) the Baltic, both "closed" and fairly calm "inner seas".

History tells us the galley, although perfectly serviceable on its own waters, is *not* something you want to tackle an open ocean in.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I would say the Norsemen made it to North America first but there is quite a good chance Irish monks under Brendan made it. Also, Madoc and the Welsh colony theories are quite sound as well.

[BDC]

Those white people who made it to America before the Native Americans, and now cause a lot of issues when their ancient remains are uncovered.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Prince Madog

Welsh guy.



the man who provided the justification for John Dee's "British Empire"
(1604 I think).

I guess the theory goes like this. Gwynedd had links to Dublin. Dublin at the time still had big Scandinavian links. So it's plausible that Madog could have done it using those nice Scandinavian boats.

And then there are all the stories about him.

I don't believe it but I do believe it is possible.

[Csargo]

I think its kinda sad that the guy was given credit for discovering america doesn't even have a single vote.
I just thought that this is pretty funny.

[Red Peasant]

I *seriously* doubt if vessels that rate as "quite seaworthy" on the Med are the stock you cross oceans with. It's not like the Phoenicians had any real incentive to develop their shipbuilding in that direction anyway. Put this way: the only two seas I know of where the galley ever saw extensive use are the Mediterranean and (to a much smaller degree) the Baltic, both "closed" and fairly calm "inner seas".

History tells us the galley, although perfectly serviceable on its own waters, is *not* something you want to tackle an open ocean in.

By the seventh/sixth century BC the Phoenicians and Etruscans were trading in larger, twin-masted vessels, not too dissimilar in general design to the later medieval craft. They weren't galleys. However, I still wouldn't have liked to cross the ocean in one.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Those white people who made it to America before the Native Americans, and now cause a lot of issues when their ancient remains are uncovered.

Those are the ones Im talking about.

I think its kinda sad that the guy was given credit for discovering america doesn't even have a single vote.
I just thought that this is pretty funny

And that it was named after this guy

Amerigo Vespucci

[Samurai Waki]

Personally I think Leif was the first person from a more advanced civilization to reach the Americas, not only is there physical proof that some vikings did settle for a bit in Newfoundland, it predates that of any other non-native cultures that had an impact in America. Apparently the Sioux were quite fond of Viking Artifacts, considering that many were found in their early tribal villages in Northern Minnesota after they were pushed into North Dakota and Montana.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I wanted to vote Columbus, since I'm 4th degree KofC.

I wanted to vote Sanctus Brendan, since I'm of Irish ancestry.

I wanted to vote Leif Ericson, since the best historical/archeological evidence has been found for that claim.

So, instead, I voted other -- which I am stealing from a Dirk Pitt novel:

Odysseus of Ithaca.

This theory takes as it's premise the idea that Troy was not a power in Asia minor, but was, instead, a key source of tin (vital to bronze age metalwork, Helen was either made up by story tellers or used as an excuse) -- Great Britain (specifically the SE region [Kent/Anglia]. After the win, Ody was forced by weather North and ended up crossig the Atlantic, heading down the eastern seaboard and, after many mishaps etc. returning after a 10 year voyage. He would have been sailing in an early form of kyrenia, not a bireme, and hence would have had a better chance to make such a double crossing.

[Slyspy]

Alright then. Who was the first to arrive, settle and then go home and shout about it?

[solypsist]

the americas were grand central station centuries before columbus. the problem is there just wasnt anything worth trading, so things didnt continue. this is why every few years a paleontologiest digs up an old skull or something that "doesnt belong" and so the debate continues.

i have read 1421 and the evidence is very compelling. but really, this is the sort of thing one can expect: when tipping over sacred cows there are immedietly people who rush to stand them again.

[bmolsson]

Yes, but they weren't departing an advanced civilization. They were barely up to stone age technology when they crossed the Berring land bridge.

I would argue that the world still haven't seen and advanced civilizations....

[GoreBag]

Vespucci arrived before Columbus did anyway. Ericsson is proven to have arrived. He made several trips and made use of the large trees growing where he landed, which was in Northern Quebec, Labrado, Newfoundland and New Brunswick. Leif's brother was killed fighting natives after he led an attack on a native village and killed a number of them in their sleep.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Vespucci arrived before Columbus did anyway

Not unless my prior link is totally wrong.

Vespucci was born in 1454 to a prominent family in Florence, Italy. As a young man he read widely, collected books and maps, and even studied under Michaelangelo. He began working for local bankers and was sent to Spain in 1492 to look after his employer's business interests.

While in Spain, Amerigo Vespucci began working on ships and ultimately went on his first expedition as a navigator in 1499. This expedition reached the mouth of the Amazon River and explored the coast of South America. Vespucci was able to calculate how far west he had traveled by observing the conjunction of Mars and the Moon.

[Leet Eriksson]

The book itself is pretty fictional, 1421 i mean, the author doesn't use solid sources. I know some chinese friends, and they told me it has no solid claims.

As for the first who discovered America, its most definitly Leif.

[Tachikaze]

I am convinced that the Norsemen settled for a time in North America. Since I see little reason to believe another post-stone-age Eurasian visited the Americans before them, I would vote for the Norsemen.

I am also pretty certain that the Phoenicians were the first to sail around Africa, which means there's a chance they could have sailed the Atlantic. I don't think they did.

No one has mentioned the claims by Afrocentrists about West Africans reaching South America before the man we call "Columbus".

I'm pretty irritated by the nationalism that gets involved in this question. It's pretty ridiculous and annoying. The more a person who identifies themself from a particular nationality claims for one of their "ancestors" being first, I believe it less. I roll my eyes like this and sometimes like this

One such annoying example are people who are either Italian or call themselves Italian who take pride in "Columbus". To start with, the nation of Italy didn't exist until the 1870s. Before then, it was separate principalities. Genoa is in northwestern Italy, related as much to France as any of the Italian states. Only a small minority of Italians or their ancestors are/were from there. Most Italian-Americans are decended from Sicilians, I believe. About the only relationship between Genoa and Sicily in the 15th Century was an Italic language. So, it's like me, an English-speaking American, taking pride in the exploits of an Australian explorer.

Everyone alive today, no matter where they're from, is very, very far removed from "Columbus". They have no meaningful relationship with him, and should have no pride. He has millions and millions of descendents all over the world, just as anyone else that far back in history who lived long enough to procreate.

[GoreBag]

Not unless my prior link is totally wrong.

My mistake.

America isn't named after Vespucci, though (you'd think it'd be called Vespuccia). 'America' is thought to come from 'Ameryk', the name of a Dutch cartographer.

[InsaneApache]

My mistake.

America isn't named after Vespucci, though (you'd think it'd be called Vespuccia). 'America' is thought to come from 'Ameryk', the name of a Dutch cartographer.

I think your getting confused with the Welsh trader Ap Meryk who partially financed Cabots expedition to the New World and is now generally accepted to have contributed his name to the new continent.

[Slyspy]

I've decided to vote Columbus since his discovery was the only useful one, the one which gave us the Americas we know today. A barely documented Chinese voyage smells of politics to me. Chinese junks have never been especially seaworthy, being designed mostly for coastal waters, island hopping and river trade. I suppose if you sent enough of them some might survive a Pacific crossing. I'm not quite sure why they would try though. The Norse settlement in Newfoundland, while a reasonable possibility, would have been short-lived and no else seemed to know about it. The Irish monk thing seems laughable. A canoe! Legends are proof of nothing. I also doubt whether any ancient craft designed for the calm, tideless Med would be capable of a transatlantic crossing.

[Ironside]

As for those who have red 1421, give me the

Size of the expidition.
Last harbour leaving and first harbour entering, when back.
Why they even tried this expedition.

Voted for the vikings, as it's actually confirmed that they've been there. So even if they were anyone before that, it was basically away (by mistake) and back.

[Just A Girl]

Hell id say The native americans 1st discoverd America,
But there ya go,

We need to go back to prehistoric times to find out who actualy went from africa to America.

But you aint gonna manage that.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Sidenote: Italian Americans and other Columbus fans can always take comfort in the fact that Columbus was the first to establish any sort of permanent settlement here.

More than a sidenote, this is the relevant criterium.

The America's have had tens of millions of permanent inhabitants ever since the ice age. So the title of 'discovery of America' in the sense of like the first man on the moon goes to the native Americans.

What's left is the title of 'discovery of America' in the meaning of starting permanent settlement and an enduring link between the old and new world. This one goes to Columbus' voyage, no doubt.

It is not relevant how much (or better: how real) archeological evidence is unearthed in the Americas of contact with Phoenicians, Egyptians, Polynesians, west-Africans, Vikings, Chinese or what not. None of you speak Phoenician, Old-Norse or Chinese now, do you?