Banned From Owning Animals [Archive]

Vladimir

01-19-2006, 15:08

A question for those from the UK: Who supports this law? Here's what I'm talking about.

Two students who sent a hamster through the post as a drunken prank have been fined and banned from owning animals. So what else can't you put in a parcel? The hamster found in a postbox is now named First Class. And he's lucky to be alive. If he hadn't gnawed through the envelope and been spotted by the postman, he might have died in the sorting machine.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4623754.stm

It's a HAMSTER! I guess you're allowed to send insects and lower forms of life through the mail but what about the sentence? It was a stupid prank from some of the "best and brightest" but 10 years? Let me guess, because they can feel pain it is abuse? If ants are found to experience pain should there be a penalty for killing them too? Animal cruelty is wrong and (depending on religion) disrespectful but is this a realistic sentence? Are you allowed to kill rats and mice in the UK or do you have to obtain their consent for assisted suicide?

Fragony

01-19-2006, 15:12

It's a rather cruel thing to do. Seems fitting to me.

R'as al Ghul

01-19-2006, 15:21

It's a HAMSTER! I guess you're allowed to send insects and lower forms of life through the mail but what about the sentence? It was a stupid prank from some of the "best and brightest" but 10 years? Let me guess, because they can feel pain it is abuse? If ants are found to experience pain should there be a penalty for killing them too? Animal cruelty is wrong and (depending on religion) disrespectful but is this a realistic sentence? Are you allowed to kill rats and mice in the UK or do you have to obtain their consent for assisted suicide?

Well, they only got banned from owning animals. Seems fair to me.
10 years is plenty of time to think about it. Clearly they aren't friends
of animals or they wouldn't have done it.
Did you know that horses do feel pain but can't express it?
This is true for most animals and frankly, science doesn't know enough
to determine if an animal feels and what. I just recently saw a program
about ants. One of them was stuck to a carnivorous plant and struggling
to get out. The glue was too sticky but another ant, who passed by, joined the effort and pulled its mate out. Interesting, isn't it?
Mice and rats can at least feel fear and they do express their stress by screaming.
Poor hamster, I feel sorry for him. :no:

Fragony

01-19-2006, 15:28

Did you know that horses do feel pain but can't express it?

They sure can. It is the most horrible sound you will ever hear. Horse had broken out, and a motorbike ripped of his leg.

R'as al Ghul

01-19-2006, 15:33

They sure can. It is the most horrible sound you will ever hear. Horse had broken out, and a motorbike ripped of his leg.
I'm too afraid to imagine. I stand corrected.
I was thinking about minor pains, not moments of death. :dizzy2:
If it has muscle restraints for example (can be very painfull), they tend
to be quiet about it. Only when riding them you'll notice that sth is wrong.

Ja'chyra

01-19-2006, 15:39

Seems entirely reasonable to me, I can't stand animal cruelty.

Devastatin Dave

01-19-2006, 15:48

Well they're lucky I wasn't the judge, I would have boxed those guys up and labeled the box "Not Fragile, please feel free to kick the shit out of this box" and mail it third class overseas.

R'as al Ghul

01-19-2006, 15:50

Seems entirely reasonable to me, I can't stand animal cruelty.
It really makes me upset.
I don't know what's up with me today but just look at this little fellow:
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41229000/jpg/_41229036_hamster_pa203.jpg
He's sitting on a hand. How can you want to harm a living being so small and fragile? I simply can't imagine the motivation behind it.

Ja'chyra

01-19-2006, 15:53

Well they're lucky I wasn't the judge, I would have boxed those guys up and labeled the box "Not Fragile, please feel free to kick the shit out of this box" and mail it third class overseas.

Guess who's back
Back again
Yadda yadda....

:2thumbsup:

Vladimir

01-19-2006, 15:53

So again, what about the rats and mice? We all know how beloved the brown rat is in Europe so do you guys adopt them? Maybe turn your home into a “wildlife refuge”? Nothing happened to the poor little critter (that's his picture in the article). A fine would be appropriate and I doubt those people will "think about it" much. So how is that enforced? If a bobby sees you holding a goldfish is he going to beat you with his billy club while blowing his whistle? Or do you have to wear a scarlet "H"?

Hamster mutilation = bad

Hamster in the mail = funny (more like point and laugh funny)

Fragony

01-19-2006, 16:05

Ser Clegane

01-19-2006, 16:09

Hamster in the mail = funny (more like point and laugh funny)

:inquisitive:

:no:

Vladimir

01-19-2006, 16:16

Interesting. I suppose it's illegal to own snakes too as they tend to eat LIVE animals. I imagine that they don't go peaceably and without fear.

English assassin

01-19-2006, 16:16

We all know how beloved the brown rat is in Europe so do you guys adopt them?

As it happens I had pet rats when I was a kid. They make very good pets for children. Much better than hamsters, which don't really do much.

Are you allowed to kill rats and mice in the UK or do you have to obtain their consent for assisted suicide?

You are allowed to kill pests provided you do not cause them unnecessary suffering. So eg traps or poisons have to be approved. Seems reasonable to me.

Seamus Fermanagh

01-19-2006, 16:20

Okay, I don't follow the PETA line about animals needing to be treated as well as humans (better?).

My deeper concern for the hamster is absent...sorry.

That noted, the actions taken were insipid and cruel. Cruelty, as my sig suggests, is more of a tantrum than anything else and, as with my own toddler, tantrums cannot be rewarded if socially acceptable behavior is to result.

If we can ban felons from owning guns, we can prevent these yahoos from owning animals (at least to the extent that such is enforceable).

Cruelty to animals is demeaning to the humans involved and has been correlated with a tendency toward cruelty and violence to one's own species. A bit of a "watch" on these chaps in order to ensure that it was the ethanol that sparked it is not unwarranted.

Ser Clegane

01-19-2006, 16:22

Interesting. I suppose it's illegal to own snakes too as they tend to eat LIVE animals. I imagine that they don't go peaceably and without fear.

It's a bit of a difference if you just torture and kill an animal just for your entertainment, rather than feeding another animal to keep it alive.

BTW, as you are focusing your questions on Europe - what's the situation in the US.
AFAIK, you would get into some trouble if you torture a dog "just to have some fun" - if this is the case, where is the line drawn in the US?

EDIT: also, keep in mind that these brats weren't punished particularly harsh. Not allowed to own an animal? Big deal for them I guess - so much potential "fun" lost...

Devastatin Dave

01-19-2006, 16:25

As it happens I had pet rats when I was a kid. They make very good pets for children. Much better than hamsters, which don't really do much.

.
Domesticated rats make excellent pets. Easily trained and very lovable. They bite less than hamsters. Wild rats carry diseases and should be humanely killed. I had a pet Boa when i was a kid and sold it because I did not like having to give it something live. I would usually stun the mouse (eventually rat when Ellen got 6 and a half feet long) by slamming the bag on the ground with the mouse/rat in it. This was horrible. The pet trade in general is a very unpleasant business, and I'm glad I'm no longer involved in it.

R'as al Ghul

01-19-2006, 16:25

A fine would be appropriate and I doubt those people will "think about it" much. So how is that enforced?
You have a point here. The enforcement can't be guaranteed.
I suggest to fine people like them to do a fair amount of "social hours"
in an animal asylum where they can learn to treat fellow living beings
with respect.
Btw, not all snake owners feed living food. Besides, an animal killing
another animal to sustain itself is the course of nature.

Vladimir

01-19-2006, 16:26

If we can ban felons from owning guns, we can prevent these yahoos from owning animals (at least to the extent that such is enforceable).

Which is an important point: How do you enforce it? So far all the responses have been emotional responses. A fine is definite and enforceable but banning ownership? Do you have to register your pet hamsters? Compare the above responses to the thread about France's nuclear threat and most of you will :fainting: if your priorities are straight.

Ser Clegane

01-19-2006, 16:29

Compare the above responses to the thread about France's nuclear threat and most of you will :fainting: if your priorities are straight.

Uhm ... you started this thread, didn't you? If you think it's silly to respond to such threads, what is your opinion about starting threads on such issues?

Vladimir

01-19-2006, 16:34

It's a bit of a difference if you just torture and kill an animal just for your entertainment, rather than feeding another animal to keep it alive.

Even if the:

Poor little guy must have been terrified?

BTW, as you are focusing your questions on Europe

BTW it happened in Europe (England). Let's try to stay focused shall we and not turn it into (yet another) US bashing thread. If you'll refer to the original post nothing negative was said about the UK.

Fragony

01-19-2006, 16:38

It's a bit of a difference if you just torture and kill an animal just for your entertainment, rather than feeding another animal to keep it alive.

Exactly. It must suck to be eaten alive but it is their purpose. Being cruel just for the sake of it is something different. I believe live animals is illegal here in Holland, there are people that like snakes for some reason, maybe they know.

Devastatin Dave

01-19-2006, 16:40

BTW, as you are focusing your questions on Europe - what's the situation in the US.
AFAIK, you would get into some trouble if you torture a dog "just to have some fun" - if this is the case, where is the line drawn in the US?

...
They are procecuted but not as harsh as i think they should be. I called the cops on a neighbor that had left his dog outside in freezing temps for 2 days straight. I had also witnessed him kicking the dog a few months ago. He got fined and the dog was taken away. I went to the Humane's Society every other day to make sure the dog was adopted. The dog was but if it hadn't have been adopted, I would have adopted him to ensure he wasn't sent to the city pound and put to sleep. I hope he's in a better home. God put us on this Earth to take care of the animals, not mail them for entertainment or a cheap laugh.

Vladimir

01-19-2006, 16:41

Uhm ... you started this thread, didn't you? If you think it's silly to respond to such threads, what is your opinion about starting threads on such issues?

I never stated that it was silly to respond but the responses are definitely silly. I asked about the law, most people responded to the (again, unharmed) hamster.

Ser Clegane

01-19-2006, 16:42

Even if the:

?

So the hamster was tortured and they didn't care if it had died for their fun - what's not understandable about that?

BTW it happened in Europe (England). Let's try to stay focused shall we and not turn it into (yet another) US bashing thread.

Of course it happened in Europe - but you seemed so totally baffled that such a sentence is possible that it implied that the legal situation in the US is different - I merely wanted to know if this is really the case.
What does this have to do with US bashing? :inquisitive:

Devastatin Dave

01-19-2006, 16:44

Vlad, to get back on topic and keeping things civil, what do you think the proper punishment should be if you were the judge?

Ser Clegane

01-19-2006, 16:46

I never stated that it was silly to respond but the responses are definitely silly. I asked about the law, most people responded to the (again, unharmed) hamster.

You didn't "just ask" about the law. You made pretty pretty clear that you think it would be inappropriate to punish people for torturing a hamster:

It's a HAMSTER! I guess you're allowed to send insects and lower forms of life through the mail but what about the sentence? It was a stupid prank from some of the "best and brightest" but 10 years? Let me guess, because they can feel pain it is abuse? If ants are found to experience pain should there be a penalty for killing them too? Animal cruelty is wrong and (depending on religion) disrespectful but is this a realistic sentence? Are you allowed to kill rats and mice in the UK or do you have to obtain their consent for assisted suicide?

The responses made clear that most patrons who bothered to respond do not share your view on the issue.

Devastatin Dave

01-19-2006, 16:55

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/oldbib/qb9518.htm
A lot of information, but it might answer some questions on animal welfare laws.

master of the puppets

01-19-2006, 17:09

i say good job, to the judge, such abuse to small animals leads such abuse to large animals.

also do you think that they will really try to enforce it, i mean if child protection services can't protect the kids (i believe that one in foster care almost died a month ago) than whats to say anyones gonna be doing a reasonable check of whether these jerks are skinning cats.

Vladimir

01-19-2006, 17:15

First: A fine would be appropriate. I'm not sure of an amount in Euros as I have little frame of reference when it comes to that. If the critter was harmed a stiff fine and maybe a ban on ownership would be appropriate. That's what I was trying to find out in regards to this recent news story I just came across.

You didn't "just ask" about the law. You made pretty clear that you think it would be inappropriate to punish people for torturing a hamster:

The responses made clear that most patrons who bothered to respond do not share your view on the issue.

I believe I said

Animal cruelty is wrong

and asked:

is this a realistic sentence

The former states that my beliefs are the same as most of those here and the latter clearly addressed the issue of law. I know "torture" is a fashionable word now which to some means "disrespectful" (McCain). You're letting your emotions control you and twisting my statements (not an attack but I can't see how you're making those conclusions). And why did you quote "just ask"? I never wrote that.

Ser Clegane

01-19-2006, 17:23

Ja'chyra

01-19-2006, 17:43

Most snake owners don't feed their pets live prey as it easier to keep frozen animals than live ones. Also, there is a very real possibility of injury to the snake if you put a live rat in the tank when the snake isn't hungry.

Vladimir

01-19-2006, 18:08

OK, Vladimir - as you seem to believe that I misinterpreted your original statement, let me ask some questions:

Do you believe the guys should receive punishment for this particular "prank"?

Do you think the punishment they received was too harsh or was it not harsh enough?

1: Hell yes! There is no right to be stupid.

2: I think of it in terms of degree: Intent; there appears to be no intent to do harm, Effect; the animal was not harmed, Enforcement; it's not "illegal" if it's unenforceable, I can't think of a good way to go about that in this situation. A moderate fine and public disgrace should be enough in this situation. Maybe some tangent charges for using the government postage system as well. If the effect had been lethal and the intent was to do harm I would support a suspended prison sentence and probation. In that case if they get so much as a speeding ticket they'd land in jail (I believe). Something funny from the AP too:

TOKYO (AP) — Gohan and Aochan make strange bedfellows: one's a 3.5-inch dwarf hamster; the other is a four-foot rat snake. Zookeepers at Tokyo's Mutsugoro Okoku zoo presented the hamster — whose name means "meal" in Japanese — to Aochan as a tasty morsel in October, after the snake refused to eat frozen mice.

But instead of indulging, Aochan decided to make friends with the furry rodent, according to keeper Kazuya Yamamoto. The pair have shared a cage since.

"I've never seen anything like it. Gohan sometimes even climbs onto Aochan to take a nap on his back," Yamamoto said.

Aochan, a 2-year-old male Japanese rat snake, eventually developed an appetite for frozen rodents but has so far shown no signs of gobbling up Gohan — despite her name.

"We named her Gohan as a joke," Yamamoto chuckled. "But I don't think there's any danger. Aochan seems to enjoy Gohan's company very much."

The Tokyo zoo also keeps a range of mostly livestock animals, and promotes "cross-breed interaction," according to Yamamoto.

But Gohan and Aochan's case was "was a complete accident," Yamamoto said.

Can't we all just get along? :laugh4: Oh and if you want some good examples of really wacky law just look at some of the stuff that comes from southern California.

Tribesman

01-19-2006, 20:27

is this a realistic sentence

Lucky they were not in Louisiana , they could have ended up with 10 years hard labour and a $25,000 fine .
Daves link :2thumbsup:

Devastatin Dave

01-19-2006, 20:58

is this a realistic sentence

Lucky they were not in Louisiana , they could have ended up with 10 years hard labour and a $25,000 fine .
Daves link :2thumbsup:
See, i have my uses, rare and far between, but a broke watch is right twice a day.:laugh4:

Goofball

01-19-2006, 21:17

I would usually stun the mouse (eventually rat when Ellen got 6 and a half feet long)

You had a snake named "Ellen?"

That's excellent.

In my opinion, there is no higher form of humour than giving pets human names. As in: "This is my cat, Steve."

:laugh4:

My wife wants to get a french bulldog, but I told her the only way I would submit to owning such a goofy little dog is if I am allowed to name it.

I'm sure "Gaston" will make a fine new addition to our household...

~:smoking:

Redleg

01-19-2006, 21:29

You had a snake named "Ellen?"

That's excellent.

In my opinion, there is no higher form of humour than giving pets human names. As in: "This is my cat, Steve."

:laugh4:

My wife wants to get a french bulldog, but I told her the only way I would submit to owning such a goofy little dog is if I am allowed to name it.

I'm sure "Gaston" will make a fine new addition to our household...

~:smoking:

My wife just had to get a toy lap dog - a Shiz Su - or however you spell the name. We named him "Elmo"

The Shetland Sheepdog is named Quincy

Devastatin Dave

01-19-2006, 21:29

Goofy, "Killer" would be a better name!!!

Mongoose

01-19-2006, 21:32

How about "Piggy"?

Papewaio

01-19-2006, 23:50

I guess you're allowed to send insects and lower forms of life through the mail but what about the sentence? It was a stupid prank from some of the "best and brightest" but 10 years? Let me guess, because they can feel pain it is abuse? If ants are found to experience pain should there be a penalty for killing them too? Animal cruelty is wrong and (depending on religion) disrespectful but is this a realistic sentence? Are you allowed to kill rats and mice in the UK or do you have to obtain their consent for assisted suicide?

The sentence was appropriate, if a little tepid. There are plenty of links between abuse of animals and humans. People who torture animals for fun are more likely later on to escalate to humans compared with the general population.

If they were the "best and brightest" they should have known better. If I was Chancellor of their university I would also suspend them for bringing the reputation of the university down.

There is a definite difference between quickly killing something for sustenance and slowly killing or torturing something for fun. One is survival the other is sick.

Nor do I think the fact that the Hamster survived should lessen their sentence that they got. Their actions were to have fun at the Hamsters and Royal Mails expense. A dead hamster would have left a rather foul stench on peoples mail... a live one would probably left a few pellets that would not have been nice either.

As it is they have shown themselves to be cruel idiots. Not someone I would have looking after kids, have as inlaws, hire as employees or teach as students. I would think though that the real justice would have been sentencing them to be human guinea pigs for science experiments... in mail transport, economy class flying or test crash dummies.

Soulforged

01-20-2006, 00:44

The desicion was fitting. There's nothing unreasonable here. We can discuss the logical force of those laws protecting animals, but not this sentence and not the reason of the law. The law exists only to enforce and create a general moral sense, killing animals for pleasure is repugnant to the general morality, that's all.

Slyspy

01-20-2006, 01:03

A fine and a ban on owning animals would be most appropriate if you ask me. Torturing animals is not OK, even if the animal is only a hamster. It suggests a tendency to bully and abuse generally. Interestingly I have in the past ordered aquatic pets (fish and frogs mainly) through the post. The guidelines for such things are very strict and courier services are used.

By the way, any fine would be paid in Pounds Sterling not in Euros since this is Britain not Europe. Thanks.

Efrem

01-20-2006, 03:41

I don't believe in animal cruelty laws, they are animals not humans, maybe once 9/10 africans aren't reaching the age of 30 we can worry about animals, until then screw them humans are more important. That said 10 years without being allowed animals seems very fair to me.

hahhaha Hamster through the mail is hilarious. THey should have given it a nice cage and water and stuff to eat though .

bmolsson

01-20-2006, 04:24

Actually, there are a more deep fact with sending animals via mail or undeclared freight. Animal smuggling. It's cruel, common and brings in high profits. It is also a health risk. It's just not ok to send live animals via mail, not only for the sake of cruelty.
When it comes to ownership of animals, I don't think that it should be a common "right" to own animals or pets. You should have proven you are able to do so before you are allowed......

Sardo

01-20-2006, 08:30

I don't believe in animal cruelty laws, they are animals not humans, maybe once 9/10 africans aren't reaching the age of 30 we can worry about animals, until then screw them humans are more important.
You don't want 9/10 Africans to reach the age of 30? ~;p

Anyway, caring for the wellbeing of animals does not exclude caring about humanitarian issues. This kind of attitude is just plain silly.
I also fail to see what's so hilarious about a hamster in the mail. You take a small, defenseless creature and put it in a traumatizing and life-threatening situation. Even if it is 'only a hamster', that kind of thing reveals a lot about you as a person.
And these guys didn't give it a nice cage and water and stuff to eat.

GiantMonkeyMan

01-20-2006, 08:49

that was the wrong thing to do... these people deserve what sentance they've got

:no: it was a little funny though

Ja'chyra

01-20-2006, 09:40

Efrem

01-20-2006, 14:13

So you suggest we blindly follow the bible? What century are you from?

Ja'chyra

01-20-2006, 15:16

So you suggest we blindly follow the bible? What century are you from?

That's quite a leap from what I wrote my friend, or maybe I expressed myself poorly, either way, no that's not what I suggest. I was merely wondering where the thought that animals have no rights comes from?

Vladimir

01-20-2006, 15:30

If they were the "best and brightest" they should have known better. If I was Chancellor of their university I would also suspend them for bringing the reputation of the university down.

I have to read the article again but I think they were from Cambridge and whenever you go to a "named" university (and not just: "I went to university") in the UK chances are you're pretty smart. I did not think of this aspect though. These people did damage the reputation of their school and should face some punishment for that.

Plus I take it no one has heard the joke routine about the fragility of hamsters right? It's an old bit and I'm not sure who did it but he had jokes like "Hamster [hamburger] Helper", etc., really good stuff. My pain in the arse gerbil outlasted 3 of my brother’s hamsters which seems to indicate the validity of his premise.

GiantMonkeyMan

01-20-2006, 17:46

there are two cambridges... the famous one and another... i know this cos my brother has applied for a position there but says he applied for 'the' cambridge whereas he applied to the lesser of the two :laugh4:

Soulforged

01-21-2006, 00:32

I don't believe in animal cruelty laws, they are animals not humans, maybe once 9/10 africans aren't reaching the age of 30 we can worry about animals, until then screw them humans are more important. That said 10 years without being allowed animals seems very fair to me.
What's your disbelief based upon? What's that final part meant to be, that somehow killing an animal in sheer demonstration of cruelty and pleasure is somehow an unbreakeable freedom that humans have? Why shouldn't I forbid this stupid irrational behavior and also help the africans? And this is even without entering technical facts here.

Efrem

01-21-2006, 01:41

Kralizec

01-21-2006, 01:57

Sure there are worse things then animal cruelty, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't pursue it. The standards by wich we hold pet owners aren't exactly big- as long as you don't do something blatantly stupid like setting your cat on fire, you'll ususally walk away from it. Sending a hamster away on a mail box- where they very well could die slowly from either suffocation or dehydration- is more then enough proof that these pricks aren't responsible enough for keeping animals.

hellenes

01-21-2006, 02:26

I agree that the penalty was appropriate and even lenient, for me the animal being a hamster which is a small land Mammal makes all of us feel compassion for it since we are mammals ourselves, now we wouldnt react in the same manner if there was an incect or a reptile, the difference in reaction would be small but noticable...

Hellenes

Soulforged

01-21-2006, 03:03

But I still feel a human life is worth more than an animals life, just the way I was raised I guess.And I agree with you, as well as the judges, since they imposed a fine and a prohibition wich cannot be absolute given the dynamics of social life.

Slyspy

01-21-2006, 03:25

Tisn't right, people who do that shouldn't be allowed animals, But we should be focusing on other more important problems.

World Hunger is more important than Animal Cruelty.

Actually I take everything I've said back as I realised last night that as was never really allowed a pet I can't really understand the bond, so yeah I'm sorry.

But I still feel a human life is worth more than an animals life, just the way I was raised I guess.

If they had been executed for animal cruelty then your argument would make more sense. There is no need to choose between animal and human rights. I don't know where you are getting this from. We have a paternal duty to take care of our animals, that is all. Very few, outside of PETA, hold the belief that animals are equal to humans.